Why the PA can’t — and won’t — stop paying prisoners’ families | +972 Magazine Why the PA can't — and won't — stop paying prisoners' families

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Why the PA can't — and won't — stop paying prisoners' families

Israel’s demand that the PA stop paying the families of Palestinian prisoners is part of an intentional strategy to block any progress towards resolving the conflict. The problem is that it’s working.

By Yoni Mendel

Palestinians hold photos of Palestinian prisoners during a protest to demand the release of their relatives jailed in Israeli prisons, on the Prisoners' Day in the West Bank city of Hebron, on April 17, 2018. (Wisam Hashlamoun/Flash90)

Palestinians hold photos of Palestinian prisoners during a protest, demanding release of their relatives jailed in Israeli prisons, on Prisoners’ Day in the West Bank city of Hebron. April 17, 2018. (Wisam Hashlamoun/Flash90)

The Israeli demand that the Palestinian Authority stop paying the families of prisoners in Israeli jails has spread like wildfire over the past year. It has become part of Israel’s hasbara arsenal, heard again and again, mainly whenever Israel fears that the international community — or, worse, the United States — intends to present a peace plan. In those cases, the demand appears to come from everywhere: from Israeli decision-makers and pundits, academics and online comments sections. Thus, it has become a slogan — hollow, yet effective.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu put the issue of PA payment to prisoners’ families at the center of his speech during the AIPAC Policy Conference last month. “I have a message for Abu Mazen [Mahmoud Abbas],” Netanyahu said. “Stop paying terrorists.”

This Israeli demand has apparently worked its way into the White House. During Mahmoud Abbas and U.S. President Donald Trump’s meeting in Bethlehem in 2017, Trump reportedly told Abbas, “it is impossible to advance peace while funding terrorism.”

Last September, Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi Hotovely emphasized this message on the eve of White House envoy Jason Greenblatt’s visit. “There’s no sense in negotiating with those who support terrorism and continue to pay the families of terrorists,” Hotovely said.

Indeed, the demand is frequently on the tip of Israeli ministers’ tongues. Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked, Education Minister Naftali Bennet, Science Minister Ofir Akunis, Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan have all repeatedly called for the PA to stop paying prisoners’ families in the last year.

It is safe to say that the dramatic increase in frequency of this demand’s appearance is not a coincidence, but rather the result of an intentional strategy. By pushing the demand that the PA stop the payments to prisoners’ families, Israel is trying to achieve several goals simultaneously: to portray the PA as a supporter of terror, to shift the blame for the ongoing conflict away from Israel, and to stymie any attempt to renew peace negotiations. The strategy is smart and effective in that the Israeli public — and perhaps the current American administration — largely views the demand as legitimate.

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A deeper, critical examination, however, reveals that Israelis who want peace — and all those concerned about the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict — should be angry at the current government and the hasbara apparatus. Because the PA obviously cannot accept the Israeli demand in anyway, Israel’s strategy, in practice, amounts to an attempt to prevent any possible progress or resolution to the conflict.

As a reminder: Israel and the Palestinians are anything but at peace. The Palestinians are engaged — still — in an ongoing struggle for their own state and for freedom from the Israeli occupation. As terrible as this sounds to Israeli ears, from the Palestinian perspective the enemy is clearly the Israeli soldier, policeman, security guard, or settler in the West Bank, which for Palestinians (and for every country in the world except for Israel and the U.S.), is called the “Occupied Palestinian Territories.”

In keeping with this Palestinian perspective, it is not surprising that most of the violent actions for which Palestinians are currently imprisoned in Israeli jails were committed in the Occupied Territories, mostly against soldiers, security guards, and settlers. And while the PA did not send these Palestinians to commit these acts of violence, the PA, within the context of the Palestinian liberation struggle, cannot ignore them.

The issue of Palestinian prisoners in Israel is one of the few issues that transcend the divisions within Palestinian society. It is one of the few points of agreement between Hamas and Fatah. It is almost sacred: marked by official events such as “Palestinian Prisoners Day” and those of the “Palestinian Prisoners Club”; mentioned in nearly every political speech; and part of radio and television programs, which often feature conversations with the families and children of prisoners. In every city, town, and village in the occupied territories, there is someone who knowns someone whose son or daughter is currently imprisoned in Israel on charges that range from rock throwing during protests to violent crimes and even the murder of Israelis.

Palestinians take part in a protest in support of Palestinian prisoners on hunger strike in Israeli jails, in the West Bank city of Bethlehem, May 4, 2017. (Flash90)

Palestinians take part in a protest in support of Palestinian prisoners on hunger strike in Israeli jails, in the West Bank city of Bethlehem, May 4, 2017. (Flash90)

The PA’s approach to the issue of Palestinian prisoners should be compared to that of any other movement actively fighting for its independence. One could even compare it to the approach of the Zionist movement’s leadership to Jewish prisoners jailed by the British for attacking British soldiers or Arab militias during the Mandate period. In other words, a national liberation movement cannot abandon its fighters imprisoned by the occupying power for crimes committed as part of the national liberation struggle.

Israel’s demand that the PA cease its payments to prisoners’ families has successfully distracted Israelis — and the world — from other, no-less-important issues: the more than half-century-long occupation, the 12-year-long siege of the Gaza Strip, the unilateral “unification” of Jerusalem under Israeli control, and issues related to the Palestinian Nakba that have not been resolved for 70 years (the destruction of villages, the expulsion of people from their homes, the Palestinian right of return), and others.

With its demand, Israel has, at least in its own eyes, checkmated the Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority cannot move in any direction. If it continues to support the families of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel, it gives credence to the Israeli charge that it supports terrorism, and the Israeli government can continue to maintain the status quo of endless occupation and no peace negotiations. If the PA were to announce an end to financial support to prisoners’ families, it would lose its legitimacy and cease to exist.

This may be a victory for Israeli hasbara, but it is loss for all those concerned with Israel’s future.

Yoni Mendel is the projects manager of the Mediterranean Unit at the Van Leer Jerusalem Institute, and co-editor of the book review section of the Journal of Levantine Studies (JLS). This article was first published in Hebrew by the Forum for Regional Thinking. Read it here. 

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    COMMENTS

    1. Lewis from Afula

      The PA should be dismantled and the Jordanians now living in Judea and Samaria need to be repatriated back to Amman.

      Reply to Comment
    2. Ben

      “and all those concerned about the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict — should be angry at the current government and the hasbara apparatus”

      But the mass of Israelis are not angry because they are very comfortable with the occupation, which appallingly vicitmizes other people not them all the while whining about victimhood.
      The mass of Israelis live inside a cocoon of denial. Ido Geller is a very typical representative. His only response is to an article about the hasbara apparatus is to yet again crank up the hasbara machine, and generate a mechanically, manipulatively emotive (not a non sequitur here) response about “terrorists, Jew blood, prizes, river to sea, destroy Israel, blah blah blah.” The sheerest mindless propaganda so empty it is eerie.
      And you can’t have a conversation with them that leads anywhere. Might as well be talking to Tom Cruise about why Scientology is a criminal cult organization not a religion.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        I pointed out in detail why the article is a farce, neglecting to mention some basic facts which you didn’t even attempt to challenge.
        Acknowledging the facts about the Palestinians is the opposite of denial, a condition you seem to have mastered based on your continual refusal to acknowledge the goals and actions of the Palestinians themselves.
        The Palestinians’ “Pay for Slay” program literally pays per Jew blood, meaning the more Jews are dead, the bigger the payment. this is not an exaggeration but a fact you can easily look up. Or are you going to your usual state of denial about this as well ?
        Calling facts and reality “hasbara” won’t somehow make it any less real.
        The fact that you try to dismiss how the Palestinians consider all of Israel, from the River to the Sea as theirs and they openly call for a Jew-Free “Palestine” (see the pamphlets dropped by Hamas around the border this weekend) as not relevant is a very clear indication just how deep your delusion and denial goes.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          Last time I’m going to point this out to you: Your “facts” are not facts. They are distortions, distractions, deceptive half-truths at best and that is a generous percentage, and outright falsehoods. You are in love with your “facts.” You are overly-enamored with them. Tom Cruise, too, is overly-enamored of his “facts” about Scientology.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            And for some reason you refuse to address even one and prove me wrong. Go ahead, why is this so difficult for you ? start with all the facts I pointed out, the ones the writer of the article neglected to mention for some reason.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Another “fact” that’s not a fact! You used up all your chances, bye bye!

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            So Gaza does not have a border with a country other than Israel ? the article’s writer did mention why Israel is against giving the Palestinians an incentive to murder Jews ? did he mention anything about the Palestinians’ goals and actions resulting in the blockade ? did he mention that the Palestinian consider all of Israel as “the occupation” ? etc and so on ? which of the facts I mentioned in my post is incorrect ? please by all means, be specific.
            So now you are also in a state of denial what ‘facts’ mean. It’s more sad than funny.

            Reply to Comment
    3. Bruce Gould

      @Ido: We can argue forever over who did what to whom and why they did it and what history says. But what puzzles me is why you don’t listen to the military leaders of your own country, many of whom say that time is running out. What’s your plan, Ido?

      http://en.cis.org.il/2018/01/22/some-of-israels-top-fighters-now-push-for-peace/

      Even Major General Yaakov Amidror, no dove and long publicly on record that Israel had no partner on the Palestinian side, has changed his tune…question is whether Israel aspires to leave open the possibility of future negotiations towards a two-state solution, or it will act towards closing this option by expanding isolated settlements and entering an unstoppable process towards a bi-national state situation.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        As someone who supports the two-state solution, the removal of West Bank settlements and giving East Jerusalem to the Palestinians, I have no idea why you’re asking me this.

        Reply to Comment
        • Bruce Gould

          @Ido: I’m asking you what your PLAN is. In my view the people running Israel now have no intention of allowing two states under ANY circumstances, so my plan is to support BDS, my plan is to suggest that half a million Gazans march to the fence with their arms up over their heads, one hand carrying a white flag and the other a bouquet of flowers.

          What’s your plan?

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            So you support the people who openly call for the elimination of Israel. How thoughtful of you:
            http://www.stopbds.com/?page_id=48

            And the fact that the Palestinians are lead by people who see all of Israel, from the river to the sea as theirs, who openly call and fund for the murder of Jews, with their own President, a known anti-semite and Holocaust denier, who says he wants a future “Palestine” to be Jew-free,
            leaders who openly call for the eradication of Israel, who refuse to accept Israel’s legitimate existence and they say so openly. This has nothing to do with anything, right ?
            Israeli leaders made several peace offers to the Palestinians, including those with official American support, based on the two states solution. The Palestinians rejected all of them. The offered plans leave a viable existing Israel and they can’t have that.

            Your plan is kinda contradicting the demand of the march organizers who dropped pamphlets this weekend at the border saying that all of Israel is theirs and that Jews has no place there and they should, and I quote “go back to where they came from”:
            https://twitter.com/eliorlevy/status/987293907762466816?s=19

            which is amusing because half of all Jews in Israel are from Arab/Islamic countries of the Middle-Eastern/North Africa.
            But go for it. They will never pass the border into Israel of course, but it would be a refreshing change from the violent riots and attempts to kill Israelis at the border.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Distortions, distractions, deceptive half truths, or falsehoods. Masquerading as “facts” you so love to pretend they are. All of it. (Spare us the verbose protestations and the whining, it’s water gone by, just accept that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Say a serenity prayer.)

            Your technique is something like: “Those Israelis, those Jews, they are all like Bezalel Smotrich, the kneecapper of 17-year-old girls, therefore we can never make peace with ‘them,’ because you make peace only with your best friends not your enemies. And ‘they’ are all awful.”

            Most telling is that you cannot answer Bruce. You have no plan except to out-Netanyahu Netanyahu by passively having no plan except delay, disinformation and deceit.

            I appreciate your making this clear.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            And I ask again, like I always do: point to anything I said and prove me wrong. The BDS quotes are out of context ? the goals and actions of the Palestinian in Gaza are not what I said they are ?
            What are you talking about ? I made it clear 3 or 4 times to you that I support the two states solution, the dismantling of the settlements in the West Bank, giving East Jerusalem to the Palestinians. I also said, more than once, that currently the Palestinian leadership don’t see the existence of Israel as part of their future plans and “Palestine” and I provided proof that you are yet to refute.
            So go ahead, which of the facts I posted is incorrect ? why is this part so difficult for you ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Ahem.

            As Bruce asked, and you cannot seem to answer though you are never otherwise at a loss for words:

            What. Is. Your. Plan?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Secondly, Ido Geller, you have to stop playing this trolling game of “prove me wrong.” None of your statements is “correct” or “proved.” You’ve provided no “proof” of anything. This is a far too overworked word of yours. Your assertions are irrelevant or out of context or half true or false and the conclusions you draw from them are simplistic and false. There are some that are self-evidently false and most of it is just an “everybody knows” talking point false “truism” from which even then your conclusion does not follow. They don’t lend themselves to or warrant some “prove me wrong” effort. Honestly, everything you write feels simplistic, dumbed down, lacking in context, rote, just propaganda. Illuminating nothing. You make grand, static, black and white, overgeneralized pronouncements and then say “prove me wrong, go ahead prove me wrong.” You need to learn how to argue.

            “And I ask again, like I always do”

            Truer words have never been spoken.

            More to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Let me visit on you the kind of game you play, but with more actual specificity and verisimilitude:

            For a fact, Knesset Deputy Speaker Bezalel Smotrich urges the kneecapping (at least) of 17-year-old girls who dare to resist settlers and slap an occupying soldier. For a fact, Ben Caspit, a mainstream Israeli journalist, and not just him, said that the same 17-year-old Palestinian girl should have bad things done to her by Jewish men in the dark when cameras aren’t running. And he did not lose his job and the vast majority of Israelis did not think for a minute that he should. For a fact, the Israeli Defense Minister implied that the assassination by an Israeli military sniper of a Palestinian journalist wearing a PRESS jacket and doing nothing but behaving like a PRESS person was A-OK because that journalist was said by somebody at some point in the past to have flown a drone somewhere to take journalistic photos. For a fact, Ido Geller insinuated in these pages that the assassination by sniper of this particular human being, this particular journalist was A-OK with him because some Palestinians somewhere in the past might have posed as a journalist when they were not practicing journalism; and for a fact Geller coldly insinuated that a 41% kill rate for protesters not “confirmed terrorists” was an unremarkable rate* and an acceptable thing. For a fact, the majority of the current Israeli government is loudly and clearly opposed to surrendering an inch of occupied territory and any mainstream Israeli politician who proposed the Palestinians have East Jerusalem as their capital would have his political head handed to him. This is just off the top of my head. I could go on.

            Should I conclude triumphantly from these facts that “the Israeli leadership” and “the Israelis” simply don’t want peace and there is no one to talk to (and as I said I can do this with much more verisimilitude and face plausibility than I think you can run it the opposite way) and shall I conclude that Ido Geller is not a remotely credible 2SS supporter despite his shallow lip service?

            And then when Geller objects that I am inappropriately generalizing and merely propagandizing should I whine as follows?: “So go ahead, which of the facts I posted is incorrect ? why is this part so difficult for you ?”

            ————————
            * Geller: “Don’t you think it’s odd that so far 20 out of the 34 civilian dead are confirmed to be active terrorists belonging to terrorist organizations?”

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, point to anything Smotrich said that actually happened. Just one. Go ahead. You’re comparing a clown who doesn’t have any actual power to the dictatorship and theocracy who actively rule and control the Palestinians, dictate their actions, who literally fund and control the attacks on Israel and the murder of Jews.
            Why are you lying about Ben Caspit ? I read his original post and the second one after he explained what he actually said, and he never said “bad things should be done to her by Jewish men in the dark when cameras aren’t running”.
            This is an archive of the original post, feel free to translate it yourself:
            https://web.archive.org/web/20171223204626/http://www.maariv.co.il/journalists/Article-614459

            I already address the “Press” thing with several examples of Palestinians using this as cover for terrorism, and if anyone, including a journalist, gets close to the border during a violent riot with huge smokescreens used by the Palestinians as cover for their violence, he’s knowingly risking his life.
            And you lie again and again: I never said anything “coldly insinuated that a 41% kill rate..etc”. I was talking on killed out of the number of protesters who didn’t riot near the border, I said something like 99% didn’t get hurt, do you want me to post the actual comment ? what’s with the lying ? Also I posted details about most of the dead, as confirmed by the Palestinians themselves, were known members of terrorist organizations.
            Why are you again ignoring the fact that the Palestinians see all of Israel, from the river to the sea, as their “Palestine” and how their own President said that a future “Palestine” should be Jew-Free ? how they refuse to accept the viable existence of Israel, as if this has nothing to do with the situation ?
            Why are you ignoring the repeated peace offers made by Israel, some by official backing of the US government to the Palestinians ?
            And no, pointing the nonsense you posts as incorrect and filled with lies is not difficult for me at all as you can see.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, Why are you lying again ? the BDS quotes I provided are false ? So Gaza does not have a border with a country other than Israel ? the article’s writer did mention why Israel is against giving the Palestinians an incentive to murder Jews ? did he mention anything about the Palestinians’ goals and actions resulting in the blockade ? did he mention that the Palestinian consider all of Israel as “the occupation” ? do you understand what ‘facts’ mean ? which of the facts I mentioned in my post is incorrect ? why are you having such a difficult time with this ? by all means, point to one fact and prove me wrong.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            And here I answer for the 5th time: two state solution with the Palestinians coming to terms with the fact that Israel, the homeland of the Jewish people, is going to continue to exist. This includes dismantling of West bank settlements and handing East Jerusalem to the Palestinians. Is this too complicated for you to grasp ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You really are something. Smotrich’s party is a central element of the ruling coalition. His party leader, Bennett, Education Minister, said nothing when Smotrich said this. Not a word. Smotrich’s party member, the Israeli Justice Minister, Shaked, said nothing, not a word. None of them said a word. They tacitly approved. And Bennett has said similar things and Shaked has said similar things if in more coded language. And to use your words, all these people very much DO “actively rule and control the Palestinians, dictate their actions, who literally fund and control the attacks on the Palestinians and the murder of Arabs.” You live in a cocoon of smug, self-righteous denial, Ido Geller.

            You should stop calling me a liar but I don’t really care what you do. It’s a base tactic. Cheap. Sleazy. Transparent. Your answer on the PRESS thing is a non-answer. Does not face the fact of the murder of an innocent man, a journalist. On the 41% (14/34) you don’t have to get the original quote. I just quoted it. Own up to what you said by insinuation. You see, you just can’t see yourself as others see you. And how many times will you brazenly, really brazenly, repeat the “Jew-Free” slander? Really you are shameless.

            Lurking also in that stew of self-righteous denial and Israeli arrogance is the Israeli assumption that “known members of terrorist organizations” (that is “confirmed” by…Israel) can be assassinated by snipers at will, just like that, just because they now participate in peaceful protest and it’s inconvenient for Israel.

            You cannot see yourself as others see you.

            RE: “Palestinians coming to terms with the fact that Israel, the homeland of the Jewish people, is going to continue to exist”

            Abu Mazen and the PA came to terms with it a long, long time ago. Your propaganda to the contrary is tiresome and ineffective. No one is buying these goods way past their sell date.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            And Caspit wrote, and I quote: “In the case of the girls, we should exact a price at some other opportunity, in the dark, without witnesses and cameras.” So if you want to say that “In the case of the girls, we should exact a price at some other opportunity, in the dark, without witnesses and cameras”, is not the basic equivalent of bad things should be done to her by Jewish men in the dark when cameras aren’t running, be my guest. I’ll take off the quotation marks on my version but it still stands. I submit that my version is not in any substantial way different from what Caspit said, and said in a snide, sneaky, contemptuous way, and what Caspit meant and what everyone took him to insinuate. And if you can’t see that, then that is more evidence of the cocoon of self-righteous blindness you inhabit.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Thank you for providing the evidence that you lied when you said that Caspit said, and I quote: “17-year-old Palestinian girl should have bad things done to her by Jewish men in the dark when cameras aren’t running”.
            Why not post what Caspit later explained what he actually meant and was taken out of context, like you just did ?
            https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Fighting-a-shaming-campaign-with-the-truth-520014

            “I submit that my version is not in any substantial way different from what Caspit said”, so you just “paraphrased” again ? “my version”.. hilarious.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            And I ask again: point to anything Smotrich said that actually happened. Just one. Go ahead. Do you understand the difference between a clown with zero actual power to do anything and the actual leaders and agenda makes who literally fund and control the various terrorist organizations ? who directly fund the murder of Jews ? is this too complicated for you ?
            I ask again: point anything, a single thing, that he said that actually happened. Just one. Go ahead. Why is this so difficult for you ?
            You either don’t understand what you’re talking about or you’re lying again. This is not comparable to Hamas and Fatah.
            When I called you a liar I provided evidence for it, very clearly so. I explained in detail how Palestinians use the cover of “Press” (and hospitals, schools, ambulances, etc) as cover for terrorism, evidence you are yet to challenge, as an explanation to what happened. I also explained how the riots and the smokescreen can pose a danger to anyone at the border, doesn’t matter if he is a journalist. More than once.
            If you’re going to cover a violent riot at the border, in a place you have been warned repeatedly that your life will be in danger, it’s a risk you’re taking. This is not rocket science.
            I never said anything about 41%, this is an obvious lie of yours, I said, very, very specifically how the protesters who didn’t riot were not harmed and out of the dead most were known terrorists. You didn’t “just quote me”, you lied and twist what I said, again.
            What ““Jew-Free” slander? I proved to you, in detail, how the Palestinian President said it. I explained to you, in detail, 4 times, what is the difference between Jew and Israel, something you obviously had no clue about.
            Why do you lie about the fact that Hamas themselves confirmed their members were among the dead ?
            https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-accused-of-playing-into-israels-hands-in-wake-of-gaza-protest/

            Why do you continue to call violent riots as “peaceful protests” ?
            “Abu Mazen and the PA came to terms with it a long, long time ago” – then why do they continue to openly and very clearly show the entire land of Israel as theirs ? why does their charter calls for the elimination of Israel ?
            https://www.algemeiner.com/2013/08/21/the-plo-charter-still-calls-for-israels-destruction/

            Why are you neglecting to mention Hamas ? who openly and very clearly call for the elimination of Israel and the murder of Jews ? “paraphrasing” again ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            And I ask again: point to anything Smotrich said that actually happened. Just one. Go ahead. Do you understand the difference between a clown with zero actual power to do anything and the actual leaders and agenda makers who literally fund and control the various terrorist organizations ? who directly fund the murder of Jews ? is this too complicated for you ?
            I ask again: point anything, a single thing, that he said that actually happened. Just one. Go ahead. Why is this so difficult for you ?
            You either don’t understand what you’re talking about or you’re lying again. This is not comparable to Hamas and Fatah.
            When I called you a liar I provided evidence for it, very clearly so. I explained in detail how Palestinians use the cover of “Press” (and hospitals, schools, ambulances, etc) as cover for terrorism, evidence you are yet to challenge, as an explanation to what happened. I also explained how the riots and the smokescreen can pose a danger to anyone at the border, doesn’t matter if he is a journalist. More than once.
            If you’re going to cover a violent riot at the border, in a place you have been warned repeatedly that your life will be in danger, it’s a risk you’re taking. This is not rocket science.
            I never said anything about 41%, this is an obvious lie of yours, I said, very, very specifically how the protesters who didn’t riot were not harmed and out of the dead most were known terrorists. You didn’t “just quote me”, you lied and twist what I said, again.
            What ““Jew-Free” slander? I proved to you, in detail, how the Palestinian President said it. I explained to you, in detail, 4 times, what is the difference between Jew and Israeli, something you obviously had no clue about.
            Why do you lie about the fact that Hamas themselves confirmed their members were among the dead ?
            https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-accused-of-playing-into-israels-hands-in-wake-of-gaza-protest/

            Why do you continue to call violent riots as “peaceful protests” ?
            “Abu Mazen and the PA came to terms with it a long, long time ago” – then why do they continue to openly and very clearly show the entire land of Israel as theirs ? why does their charter calls for the elimination of Israel ?

            Why are you neglecting to mention Hamas ? who openly and very clearly call for the elimination of Israel and the murder of Jews ? “paraphrasing” again ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, you never answered my post, the one i posted about your state of denial regarding the facts I posted: so Gaza does not have a border with a country other than Israel ? the article’s writer did mention why Israel is against giving the Palestinians an incentive to murder Jews ? did he mention anything about the Palestinians’ goals and actions resulting in the blockade ? did he mention that the Palestinian consider all of Israel as “the occupation” ? etc and so on ? which of the facts I mentioned in my post is incorrect ? please by all means, be specific.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            LoL. Ain’t that just like a propagandist to turn a harmless word, “paraphrase,” into something sinister, to try to make hay out of nothing and, characteristically, to try to turn the attention from the real subject by attacking the messenger? You really are something else, Ido Geller. We marvel at your antics. Lacking any real argument you turn to these base techniques. And here’s the thing: I think you do it half-innocently. I think you really have no idea what you are doing.

            Once or twice we could let it pass. But you have a record now. An inveterate slanderer. My description of Caspit’s actual statement was not in quotation marks. And it was not substantially different from the actual words he used. And I told you that and accepted the precise quotation as fact. But apparently you haven’t.

            Is it a lie that Caspit said “In the case of the girls, we should exact a price at some other opportunity, in the dark, without witnesses and cameras”? Caspit’s backtracking does not convince. “In the case of the girls, we should exact a price at some other opportunity, in the dark, without witnesses and cameras.” Sorry, no one not born yesterday thinks what Caspit really, really meant in his heart of hearts was “carry out an arrest.” No way. What we see is a smug Israeli male suddenly get the grin wiped off his face and him backpedaling like mad when his wink and nod statement got called out. And it comes down to this—that for the likes of Ben Caspit “the video of the Palestinian girls lashing out at IDF soldiers is nauseating.” Humiliating. Nothing less than that. And in revenge the overlord had to exact a price in nausea and humiliation. And it backfired on him.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Is it a lie that Bezalel Smotrich said that Amed Tamimi should be kneecapped?

            The Deputy Knesset Speaker said these things and no one in his party or the Education Minister or the Justice Minister cried out in horror. No one said a word.

            Why isn’t Bezalel Smotrich a “confirmed terrorist”?
            Why isn’t Ben Caspit a “confirmed terrorist”?
            Why isn’t Avigdor Leiberman a “confirmed terrorist”?
            Why isn’t the IDF a “confirmed terrorist” organization? Likud? Habayit Hayehudi?
            Why are the Likud-backed and Habayit Hayehudi-backed settlers (they can do no wrong in the eyes of the government) who beat a 64-year-old shepherd and put him in the hospital not “confirmed terrorists”?
            They all terrorize or direct, aid or abet terrorizing.

            So go ahead, which of these facts I posted is incorrect? Why is this part so difficult for you ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “And I ask again: point to anything Smotrich said that actually happened.”

            This is the kind of habitual, obtuse statement from a defender of the occupation that leaves one speechless. Honey child, I hate to break it to you, but what Deputy Speaker Bezalel Smotrich says, in letter and in spirit, has been ruthlessly carried out for 50 years now and is being carried out day and night, as I type. What Bezalel Smotrich says is being ruthlessly carried out right now in Gaza too. Civilian protesters are being kneecapped. You just have no insight whatsoever, do you?

            You say that the other side does all these things you call “terrorism” (and no matter what they do, it is all ‘terrorism’, we have ‘diplomatic terror’ and ‘construction terror’ too) but have no insight that your side does the same, but simply does it with the less asymmetric methods available to the side with all the power. “They are ‘terrorists’ and we are not.” So goes the smug illusion. And you comfortably think your government is comfortably insulated from its “extremists” and its “clowns” but it is not. The extremists and the clowns are running the show. And have been for a long time now.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “This is the kind of habitual, obtuse statement from a defender of the occupation that leaves one speechless” – so you do consider all of Israel as “the occupation”, just like the Palestinians. As I have said multiple times now that I’m in favor of settlements removal in the West Bank.
            Also Gaza is not occupied, Hamas claims so themselves, there is a blockade as a result of the Palestinians’ own actions.
            “Civilian protesters are being kneecapped” – do you still think that anyone is buying the “peaceful protests” nonsense ? I mean anyone who actually know what is happening in reality. Go see the videos from the last couple of days, the ones where they show exactly what the protesters do at the border under the cover of a smokescreen.
            I think Hamas increased the payment incentives because they seem to be desperate to get the photo of Palestinians crossing the border.
            You talk about having insight ? how many times have I proved here that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about ? with detailed proof.
            “You say that the other side does all these things you call terrorism” – you call “terrorism” ? are you nuts ? tell me, are you even aware, just slightly, about the actions and goals of Hamas ? Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade ? Islamic Jihad ? PLO ? Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine ? Harakat al-Sabireen ? are you aware that all these terrorist organizations have the entire map of Israel, from the river to the sea, as their official symbol ? do you think it’s a printing error ?
            “They are ‘terrorists’ and we are not” – responding to Palestinian terrorism you mean ? if the forces were reversed I wouldn’t be having this nice chat with you because myself and my family would be dead.
            “The extremists and the clowns are running the show” – the ones who offered peace agreements to the Palestinians several times ? the one who officially accepted the two states solution ? sadly an existing Israel seems to be a problem for the Palestinian leadership at the moment, hopefully this will change since as I’m sure you know, they do not represent the Palestinian people because both (Hamas and Fatah) canceled the elections some time ago. How democratic of them.

            Oh and you never answered my post, the one i posted about your state of denial regarding the facts I posted: so Gaza does not have a border with a country other than Israel ? the article’s writer did mention why Israel is against giving the Palestinians an incentive to murder Jews ? did he mention anything about the Palestinians’ goals and actions resulting in the blockade ? did he mention that the Palestinian consider all of Israel as “the occupation” ? etc and so on ? which of the facts I mentioned in my post is incorrect ? please by all means, be specific.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            You should educate yourself that posting articles of premium content behind a paywall is not going to make me pay for their content even though I enjoy opinion fantasy fiction pieces with tenuous relation to reality.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            I asked you 3 or so times to provide any evidence, even a single one, to anything Bezalel Smotrich said that actually happened in reality. You have failed to do so every single time. You still fail to grasp that the comparison to the Hamas/PLO leadership, who as we know not only talk, is laughable.
            Bezalel Smotrich isn’t a terrorist, Hamas are by definition. They are recognized as such internationally.
            Ben Caspit isn’t a terrorist, he’s a journalist. Avigdor Leiberman isn’t a terrorist, I asked you 4 times to provide proof that anything you pointed out about him actually became reality, you have failed to do so each and every time.
            IDF are not terrorists, they respond to terrorists. Habayit Hayehudi are a political party, they are not terrorists. Some settlers can be considered terrorists but comparing them to the actual very real leadership of the Palestinians, with their actual goals, their actual actions and agenda regarding Jews and Israel is idiotic.
            Beating a 64-year-old shepherd is the prime objective and goal of Israel’s leadership ? do you understand how your comparison is ridiculous ?
            Everything you posted is incorrect, laughable actually. And it wasn’t difficult to point it out. And you’re still in deep denial about the goals and actions of the Palestinian leadership regarding Israel and Jews even when they say it to your face, see the Hamas declarations during the protests last week.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Apparently the quotation marks went above your head. I was being cynical, you weren’t paraphrasing, you were lying. I thought I made that obvious when I said you are and provided proof for it.
            You said something you made up, that the guy never did. That makes you a liar. I’m not ‘attacking the messenger’, I pointed out the messenger lied with actual proof.
            ‘lacking any real argument’ ? you mean detailing exactly where you lied, where you were wrong, where you had no idea what you were talking about, etc ? did you type that with a straight face ?
            Your description of Caspit’s statement was wrong. You added words and as a result also meaning he never did. That makes you a liar. Caspit didn’t backtrack, he explained exactly how what he said was taken out of context.
            The girl in question, Ahed Tamimi (A.K.A “Shirley Temper”) is a professional provocateur, a social media manipulator. She got mad when her latest subject wasn’t reacting properly for the cameras so she hit him.
            In this video, what do you think she means when she said she supports the murder of Jews ? “Shahada” A.K.A martyrdom to “liberate Palestine” ? what do you think she means by “Palestine” ? the West Bank ? or what Palestinians mean, all of Israel ?
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QYIEu7SJVE

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          • Ben

            As I said, it’s hard to know with you if you really are this obtuse or if you pretend to be. You seem incapable of observing the slightest nuance or subtlety or intelligent distinction. I really can’t help you with this and I am learning that it is a waste of time to beat my head against the wall in a dialogue with you. You grind out the same propaganda no matter what gets explained to you.

            So just to pick one thing that is emblematic of this. On the subject of just who is a “terrorist” and who is not and the cherished and assiduously maintained Israeli assumption that what the IDF-Settler Complex does to the Palestinians day in day out is not simply a less asymmetric form of terror, look at your statement:

            “Beating a 64-year-old shepherd is the prime objective and goal of Israel’s leadership ? do you understand how your comparison is ridiculous ?”

            First of all, of course I never said “Beating a 64-year-old shepherd is the prime objective and goal of Israel’s leadership.” (Now shall I imitate Ido Geller and hyperventilate and hysterically schrei “you lied about me!”?) But yes, it is a prime objective and goal of the Israeli government to intimidate and suppress all Palestinian resistance, to constantly show “who’s boss,” who is the overlord, who owns the place, to constantly imprison an entire people and further a relentless land grab. And having settler proxies beat a 64-year-old shepherd and never ever mete out any true punishment or even ever launch any non-farcical investigation of these things (the beating of the shepherd of course is a drop in the bucket, just one tiny example of thousands of instances)—read the License to Kill Series of +972 Magazine and dispel your ignorance of this—is one of the ways the Israeli leadership, habitually, routinely, concertedly, for 50 years now, has met this prime objective and goal. This is how organized crime operates. Honestly do you have ANY insight at all, Ido? I’ve yet to see any evidence.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “First of all, of course I never said Beating a 64-year-old shepherd is the prime objective and goal of Israel’s leadership.” – no, you compared Palestinian terrorism to this which is literally insane. Completely detached from reality. Apparently this fact flew over your head.
            You are still failing to grasp that the Palestinians are led by terrorists who openly and very clearly call for the elimination of Israel and the murder of Jews, who refuse to accept the legitimate existence of Israel, the homeland of the Jewish people.
            I have pointed out in very clear detail exactly where you lied about me with detailed proof. If you like I can post it again.
            “it is a prime objective and goal of the Israeli government to intimidate and suppress all Palestinian resistance, to constantly show who’s boss” – ‘Palestinian resistance’ ah you mean terrorists who openly and very clearly state that their goal is the elimination of Israel and the murder of Jews. How delusional do you have to be to not see this ?
            Is this something like you having a difficult time grasping that the Palestinian president himself is an anti-semite Holocaust denier ? even after I provided detailed proof for it that you never addressed ?
            “And having settler proxies beat a 64-year-old shepherd” – yes, he was ordered to do that by Israel, just like Hamas, who rules half of the Palestinians, send suicide bombers to blow up pizza parlors. Do you understand how your comparison is a joke ?
            “even ever launch any non-farcical investigation of these things” – I can show you quite a few examples that you are terribly wrong, including Israeli Jews spending time in jail. Can you show me one, just one, example of a Hamas terrorist send to prison for by the Palestinians for murdering Jews ? they actually praise him and reward him for it, officially by the Palestinian leadership.

            And why haven’t you answered the original post, 4th time, the one i posted about your state of denial regarding the facts I posted: so Gaza does not have a border with a country other than Israel ? the article’s writer did mention why Israel is against giving the Palestinians an incentive to murder Jews ? did he mention anything about the Palestinians’ goals and actions resulting in the blockade ? did he mention that the Palestinian consider all of Israel as “the occupation” ? etc and so on ? which of the facts I mentioned in my post is incorrect ? please by all means, be specific.
            Why haven’t you responded to the above posts where I point out in detail where you were wrong and where you lied again ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Read the “License to Kill” series. All of it. No whining “I won’t pay for it” excuse here. Quite obviously you are innocent of the knowledge contained therein. But of course, what am I thinking?, you know ahead of time what it says—we know how magically clairvoyant you feel about these things.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            P.S.: My first version of Caspit’s statement, which was not in quotation marks, was not substantially different from his precise quote. I am quite happy however to affirm the obvious, that that first version, never passed off as a verbatim quotation, was not a verbatim quotation, but did not substantially change the meaning. (And this is quite humorous because you incessantly change the meanings of what I say and others say in almost every post. Almost every post. You just did with the 64-year-old shepherd.) Hysterical schreiing about “you are a liar!“ is just that, hysterical nonsense, disinhibited slandering behavior. As if you can’t control basic impulses. Grow up. But all that nonsense aside (in which your real objective was to change the subject from Caspit to me) I have yet to see you come to grips with the fact that Caspit said, and I quote:

            “In the case of the girls, we should exact a price at some other opportunity, in the dark, without witnesses and cameras.”

            All Caspit really truly meant, cross his heart and hope to die, was that he wanted the girls to be “arrested”? Suuure, Ido, suuuuure.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            P. P. S.:

            ‘the Palestinians consider all of Israel as “the occupation.”’

            So what? A huge number of Israelis consider all of Israel and the West Bank to be the property of “Greater Israel.” Halevy reminds us every other day here that most Israelis consider “Judea and Samaria” to be Arab-occupied territory. Lewis from Afula is itching to mass transfer or worse every Arab person river to sea and won’t even recognize them as people. So what? This is all the reason a fair 2SS is needed. This is one more chapter in your tirelessly one-sided vilification of the Palestinians, for propaganda purposes, without any ownership of the fact that the Israeli side does the same thing, only with vastly more hypocrisy. Your self-righteousness is overweening. But I repeat myself.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “A huge number of Israelis consider all of Israel and the West Bank to be the property of Greater Israel”- and here lies (no pun intended) the center of your ignorance. you’re comparing “a huge number of Israelis”, never mind that it’s incorrect, to the leadership of the Palestinians, the actual terrorists who dictate the Palestinian agenda and actions, the ones who control the Palestinian people.
            the ‘all of Israel belongs to the Palestinians’ is the core of the problem and why the Palestinians, at this time, do not accept any kind of peaceful co-existence with Israel. First, I like to congratulate you for finally coming to terms with the fact that the Palestinians consider all of Israel as “Palestine”. Never mind that your comparison is ridiculous.
            Halevy and Lewis do not speak for me, bringing them as an example is dishonest. You are comparing them to the Palestinian people which only show how incredible your ignorance is. Go see what the Palestinians watch on their official TV channels, what is written in their official PLO school books, what they listen to in their state run Islamic sermons, I’m guessing you have absolutely no idea about this. Do you know they are very fond of Nazi style anti-semitism ? this is not just a Palestinian President thing. I fully support West Bank withdrawal just like I supported the Gaza withdrawal (too bad it showed us exactly what the Palestinian self rule looks like, a failed terrorist state ruled by those who want to destroy Israel and to murder Jews).
            I don’t vilify the Palestinians, their own actions and very, very clearly stated goals do.
            “But I repeat myself.” – how about actually addressing all the facts I mentioned which you elegantly ignored in the previous posts ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            You lied about what Caspit said. Trying to squirm your way out of this fact in a very pathetic way is not helping. I already pointed out in detail where you lied and gave you the source of what he actually said when not taken out of context or twisted with some added content just like you have done.
            “You just did with the 64-year-old shepherd” – nope, you lie again. I explained how your example is not comparable, you ignored it. Again.
            “Hysterical schreiing about you are a liar!” – what are you talking about ? pointing out how you lied and providing detailed examples to prove it is now “Hysterical schreiing” ? hey, if it helps you come to terms with the fact that I caught you lying again by lying again, I don’t mind. I’m not judging.
            “Caspit said, and I quote” – why not quote how he explained how what he said was taken out of context ? especially when you translate it to English ?
            “he wanted the girls to be arrested” – you flat out believe Palestinian propaganda which is nothing less that historic fabrication and fantasy fiction, you flat out ignore so many easily proven facts, ranging from the Palestinians goals and actions, the Palestinian President being an anti-semite Holocaust denier (affirmed again by his speech yesterday), the difference between ‘Jew’ and ‘Israeli’, the existence of the Jewish people, the historic fact that Israel is the homeland of the Jews, etc and so on.
            But understanding how something a journalist said which was taken out of context, especially when he explained how it was taken out of context, is too much, right ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Useless conversation. I’m done.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Pointing out that you’re posting links to a premium site behind a paywall is “whining” ? if you have any information to refute the facts I’m posting, why not just post something I can read and respond to ? why is this so difficult for you to do ?
            Saying “Read the “License to Kill” series” is almost as idiotic. Sure, I’ll get right on it. First you go read the “A History of the Jewish People” by Haim Hillel Ben-Sasson, it’s about the very long history of the nation you said doesn’t exist.
            If you have any actual information, by all means post it.

            And why haven’t you answered the original post, 5th time, the one i posted about your state of denial regarding the facts I posted: so Gaza does not have a border with a country other than Israel ? the article’s writer did mention why Israel is against giving the Palestinians an incentive to murder Jews ? did he mention anything about the Palestinians’ goals and actions resulting in the blockade ? did he mention that the Palestinian consider all of Israel as “the occupation” ? etc and so on ? which of the facts I mentioned in my post is incorrect ? please by all means, be specific.
            Why haven’t you responded to the above posts where I point out in detail where you were wrong and where you lied again ?

            Reply to Comment
    4. mindy

      “…it would lose its legitimacy and cease to exist.

      the pa lost its legitimacy when the 4 year
      term was up and no elections were held.

      the world recognizes, the pa as representing
      the Palestinians, but the Palestinians do not.

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