+972 Magazine's Stories of the Week

Directly In Your Inbox

Analysis News
Visit our Hebrew site, "Local Call" , in partnership with Just Vision.

Why aren't Israelis talking about extrajudicial killings?

Two Palestinian teenage girls were shot at point-blank range after attempting to stab passersby with scissors. Who said there is no death penalty in Israel?

By Rhona Burns

On Tuesday two Palestinian teenagers left their homes and went out to attack Jewish Israelis in Jerusalem with a pair of scissors.

Unsurprisingly, the girls, 14 and 16 years old, were unsuccessful. After all, they were armed with a pair of scissors. They managed to lightly wound an elderly Palestinian man, and were immediately attacked back by other witnesses, at least two of whom were armed with guns.

When it was all over, one of the girls was shot to death, the other was seriously wounded by gunfire.

Not enough has been said about this incident, not enough has been written, despite the fact that this event included what appears to be a most serious detail. This detail is the fact that the shooting of one of the girls seems to be happening while she is already lying on the ground, after someone had hit her with a chair.

The fact is that these incidents have become commonplace. The ends justify the means. “They are attacking us, they must know that there will be consequences.” And what of Israeli society? What are the consequences of what has been taking place here for the past two months for Israelis? What is the price of blood that seems to flow so cheaply here? What is the price of suffering? Of unnecessary death? What about the right to a fair trial?

Who said there is no death penalty in Israel?

When I see what appears to be a man shooting a teenage girl as she lays on the ground on a main street in Jerusalem from point-blank range, I ask myself whether I am witnessing an attempted murder. Whether I am witnessing an extrajudicial killing, without even the facade of a kangaroo court.

This was the case with the shooting death of Fadi Alloun. This was the case, despite the different circumstances, of the tragic death of Habtom Zerhum.

We must cry out against the images captured by the security cameras at the Mahane Yehuda Market in Jerusalem. Meanwhile, as many of us are crying out, the injustices continue, the violence undermines the fundamentals of democracy and a free society, violence wins out.

Rhona Burns is a critic and author based in Jerusalem. This article was first published in Hebrew on Local Call. Read it here.

Newsletter banner

Before you go...

A lot of work goes into creating articles like the one you just read. And while we don’t do this for the money, even our model of non-profit, independent journalism has bills to pay.

+972 Magazine is owned by our bloggers and journalists, who are driven by passion and dedication to the causes we cover. But we still need to pay for editing, photography, translation, web design and servers, legal services, and more.

As an independent journalism outlet we aren’t beholden to any outside interests. In order to safeguard that independence voice, we are proud to count you, our readers, as our most important supporters. If each of our readers becomes a supporter of our work, +972 Magazine will remain a strong, independent, and sustainable force helping drive the discourse on Israel/Palestine in the right direction.

Support independent journalism in Israel/Palestine Donate to +972 Magazine today
View article: AAA
Share article
Print article
  • LEAVE A COMMENT

    * Required

    COMMENTS

    1. Ginger Eis

      Only deranged racists would arm themselves with meat cleavers, machetes and kitchen knives, scissors, etc. to specifically butcher other human beings of specific race/ethnicity/religion to achieve political goals. This is the crime the Muslim-Arab killers are committing today – as we speak – against Jews. Their non-Jewish victims are either mistaken to be Jews or considered collateral damage in a racist war sanctioned by their koran/hadith.

      When Muslim-Arabs deploy an army of child-soldiers to go and murder innocent Jewish civilians with kitchen-knives, machetes, meat-cleavers, axes, scissors, ambush fast moving Jewish cars, pelt them with rocks and Molotov cocktails killing or severely maiming the occupants of said cars incl. infant babies, while YOU REMAIN SILENT/SUPPORT such crimes and fantasize that such wanton acts of terror and murder will bring the Jewish State to her knees and force her to accept Arab demands and commit national suicide, etc. you are complicit in the acts of murder and terror against innocent civilians.

      If you cared about Arab kids/juveniles/teenagers, you would start by PUBLISHING daily your outrage and your condemnation of their use as child-soldiers to kill innocent folks. Otherwise you will remain just another hypocrite and one of their worst nightmare.

      So, pls. Spare Them And Us Your Crocodile Tears!

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        Eis swoops in to support extra-judicial execution for “Muslim-Arabs.” But not for Jews. Duly noted. Usually one to style herself a stickler for facts and their legal implications, under that famous “Israeli rule of law,” Eis inexplicably ignores a glaring fact here:

        “This detail is the fact that the shooting of one of the girls seems to be happening while she is already lying on the ground, after someone had hit her with a chair.”

        To what sudden lapse in eagle eye and searing legal analytical powers do we owe this shocking development?

        Reply to Comment
        • Gustav

          Bin Laden and many other Al Quaida members were killed in extra Judicial killings by America, even during the Obama administration.

          Our resident hypocrite, Benny, who claims to be American, does not seem to want to talk about that. Go figure.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You’re equating Bin Laden, loose in Afghanistan, with a 14-year-old girl with a pair of scissors already lying incapacitated on the sidewalk, after someone had hit her with a chair? Enough said.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            I am not equating anyone with anyone.

            I am critical of your incessant non stop criticsm about what we do when others in our situation do the same or worse.

            The incident with the 14 year old girl may or may not be wrong. I wasn’t there and you weren’t there either Benny.

            Extra judicial killings on the other hand are not necessarily wrong. But you Benny brought up the term and you are critical of us for employing that tactic no matter what. With 14 year old girls or without them. That’s why I call you a hypocrite Benny.

            You had your Bin Ladin, we had and still have our Bin Ladins too. Not just one but many. I’ll say it again. I am not talking about 14 year old girls although their elders should not instill so much hatred in them that they are willing to murder strangers with make shift weapons.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “I am critical of your incessant non stop criticsm about what we do when others in our situation do the same or worse.”

            Gustav, intelligent criticism, from the left, of the Israeli occupation and related matters is the whole point or at least the main drift of +972 Magazine. What am I supposed to discuss here? Favorite turkey stuffing recipes? Your criticism of me on this score is entirely gratuitous and fundamentally an off- topic ad hominem attack. Others are *not* in your situation. Your 48-year occupation, extended far beyond any defensible time frame, is not equatable to other situations.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Repetitive biased one sided criticism of only one side is NEVER EVER intelligent.

            Your point about the occupation is a case in point. You are putting ALL the blame on us for the occupation while giving a free pass to your Palestinian Arabs for their role as to why the occupation has continued this long. Here are the facts AGAIN!

            1. Arab violence and aggression was why the occupation occurred.

            2. In order for the occupation to end, the Arabs too have to meet at least some of Israel’s conditions.

            There has never been a conflict in the history of mankind in which the aggressors who lost the military conflict were the ones that dictated terms. This conflict will not be the first one to break that truism.

            Now back to topic. In the meanwhile, we reserve the right to employ whatever tactics, including targeted assassinations to counteract ruthless terrorist tactics. And your criticism of that Benny, is hypocritical because your own Obama employs the same tactics. Now don’t make me repeat myself. But if you do, then you know that I will. So either come up with a new point or shut the F up!

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Incessant BIASED ONE SIDED CRITICISM is NEVER, EVER intelligent. Stop pretending that it is!

            Your endless mantra about the occupation is a case in point. You pretend that we the Israel aelis are the ONLY ones to blame and that your Palestinian Arabs are entirely blameless. But here is reality…

            1. The occupation was the outcome of Arab agression and violence against us.

            2. It hasn’t ended yet because your Arabs are only interested in making demands and are not agreeable in meeting any of our terms.

            Never ever in the history of mankind did the side which was the agressor and which lost the conflict militarily, was able to dictate terms of surrender. And this will not change in the Arab Israeli conflict either. When your Arabs will assimilate this fact and act accordingly, the occupation is likely to end.

            In the meanwhile, we will do whatever is necessary to fight ruthless terrorists. And that will include targeted assassinations much as your Obama allows himself to do with the terrorists that America fights.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “Never ever in the history of mankind did the side which was the agressor and which lost the conflict militarily, was able to dictate terms of surrender.”

            Once in a while you drop the facade and expose the hard right Bennet-Shaked Jewish Home weltanschauung you really harbor.
            You insist the aggression was and is all one sided (while haranguing me for being “one-sided”). You view the 67-lines-with-swaps-2-s-s as your surrender. You’re demanding their total surrender. These views are hard core right wing. They are flatly incompatible with the weltanschauung of Sheizaf, Omer-Man, Gurvitz, et al. What else is there to talk about? Why are you here?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Why ever do you think your criticism at the opposite end is not (1) “incessant” and (2) “biased” and “one-sided? Odd.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Benny with his effing slogans about me being hard right. Even if I were, so what? You are hard left.

            Now here is what my view are about what needs to happen in order for the occupation to end, but which your Arabs steadfastly rejected.

            1. Your Palestinian Arabs need to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Nothing extraordinary about that. UN resolution 181 mentions the creation of a JEWISH state and an Arab state. Yes, it used the word JEWISH specifically.

            2. No right of return.

            3. No evacuation of the large “settlement” blocs. None of them. Use land swaps instead.

            4. Appropriate security arrangements to ensure that the new 23rd Arab state will remain demilitarized for many years to come.

            That makes me hard core right, Benny? I am not but if you insist, then so be it. It is better than being cringing hard core left and to give up my family’s lives on the altar of misplaced altruism which only cares about what is good for the Palestinian Arabs.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            By “nation state of the Jewish people” do you mean continued and enhanced Jewish hegemonic control of politics, security, land ownership and the economy? Or something else, and if so, what? See:
            http://972mag.com/who-needs-the-right-when-we-have-isaac-herzog/107550/

            By “appropriate security arrangements” do you mean like this?: (per Gershon Baskin) “The truth is that at Camp David Barak offered Arafat 89 percent of the West Bank with full Israeli control of Palestine’s external borders – the Palestinians called it a sovereign cage. Barak’s proposal included two east-west corridors under full Israeli control, cutting the West Bank into three cantons….” Plus continued occupation of the Jordan Valley? You mean like the current occupation of Gaza?

            By “no evacuation of the large settlement blocs, none of them” do you mean to include Ariel, Ma’aleh Adumim and all of Gush Etzion (i.e., not just Beitar Illit but such settlements as Bat Ayin, Efrat, Alon Shvut, Kfar Etzion, Neve Daniel, Migdal Oz and Nokdim)?

            By no RoR do you mean not a solitary soul or do you mean symbolic numbers only?

            And on all of the above do you mean “take it or leave it” or “these things are negotiable”?

            Thanks.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BEN:”By “nation state of the Jewish people” do you mean continued and enhanced Jewish hegemonic control of politics, security, land ownership and the economy? Or something else, and if so, what?”

            Sigh… boring…. I have answered that question so many times yet Benny keeps on ignoring my answer and he tries to put words in my mouth. That is called the straw man argument and propaganda…

            Never mind. I’ll answer it again…

            By the nation state of the Jewish people, I mean a majority Jewish state. Much as other states have ethnic majorities which in practice no nation state would ever voluntarily give up overnight.

            It also means equal and democratic rights for minorities in the same way that countries such as Britain respects minority rights.

            The rest of Benny’s post? I won’t bother with coz again it is full of straw men and he tries to put words in my mouth. Propaganda anyone?

            Actually, on second thought, I’ll come back to those too.

            To be continued…

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BEN:”Why ever do you think your criticism at the opposite end is not (1) “incessant” and (2) “biased” and “one-sided? Odd.”

            Odd indeed. I am biased for myself and my family. Go figure.

            But more importantly, why do I post here? Because of biased repetitive hypocrites like you who try to lecture us about a conflict which has nothing to do with you and hypocritically at that. Odd indeed.

            What do I mean by your hypocrisy? Since you like to see me repeat myself, here it is AGIN…

            Your Obama administration repeatedly uses targeted assassinations as a means of combating hardened terrorists. We do the same, yet you are upset with us for doing what you do. That’s bias and hypocrisy Benny.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Continued from my previous post which wasn’t published yet (about what I mean by a Jewish state)…

            BEN:”By “appropriate security arrangements” do you mean …”

            I mean better arrangements than the ones that were arranged with Hezbollah after our last war with them. That arragement was supposedly guaranteed by the UN. It included a clause not to replenish Hezbollah’s stockpile of rockets. Everybody signed off on it. But what happened? Hezbollah replenished it’s stock of rockets right under the noses of the useless international peace keepers. Now Hezbollah has more rockets than they had before.

            Any objections, Benny? Or am I being unreasonable?

            BEN:”By “no evacuation of the large settlement blocs, none of them” do you mean to include Ariel, Ma’aleh Adumim”

            Yes.

            BEN:”and all of Gush Etzion (i.e., not just Beitar Illit but such settlements as Bat Ayin, Efrat, Alon Shvut, Kfar Etzion, Neve Daniel, Migdal Oz and Nokdim)?”

            Certainly no evacuation of any of Gush Etzion.

            I would evacuate from Hebron though. Not because we have no right to live there. Jews have always lived in Hebron. But because I don’t want to see another massacre of Hebron’s Jews such as the one that your Arabs carried out against us in 1929. And to stop that would be too impractical.

            BEN:”By no RoR do you mean not a solitary soul or do you mean symbolic numbers only?”

            Not a single solitary soul “to return”. Firstly because most of the would be returnees now would bedescendants. They never lived here.

            Secondly because we absorbed at least as many Jewish refugees from Arab countries as there were Palestinian Arab refugees. Now it is the turn of Arab countries to absorb Paestinian Arab Muslim refugees whom they deliberately kept in squalid camps for 67 years in order to serve as cannon fodder against us.

            Have you any problem with that Benny? You are always waxing lyrical about us evil Israelis for not accommodating enough African refugees. Why don’t you expect your Arab countries to get away with their apalling treatment of Palestinian Arab refugees? Would it be because of your hypocrisy again, Benny?

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BEN:”By “nation state of the Jewish people” do you mean continued and enhanced Jewish hegemonic control of politics, security, land ownership and the economy? Or something else, and if so, what?”

            Sigh… boring…. I have answered that question so many times yet Benny keeps on ignoring my answer and he tries to put words in my mouth. That is called the straw man argument and propaganda…

            Never mind. I’ll answer it again…

            By the nation state of the Jewish people, I mean a majority Jewish state. Much as other states have ethnic majorities which in practice no nation state would ever voluntarily give up overnight.

            It also means equal and democratic rights for minorities in the same way that countries such as Britain respects minority rights.

            The rest of Benny’s post? I won’t bother with coz again it is full of straw men and he tries to put words in my mouth. Propaganda anyone?

            Actually, on second thought, I’ll come back to those too.

            To be continued…

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “It also means equal and democratic rights for minorities in the same way that countries such as Britain respects minority rights.”

            Well why didn’t you say so? So…this means you’re working to marginalize Likud, Jewish Home and Yisrael Beitenu and to advance Meretz and the Hadash wing of United Arab List? Because as you know Israel inside the green line is a long long way from Britain on this score. (And that’s of course not even talking about Israel’s behavior in the occupied territories.)

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Britain is not a small country fighting a 100 year war surrounded by millions of enemies who say that Britain has no right to exist. You people always deliberately ignore this “minor difference”, eh Benny? What did Britain do in WW2? It interned it’s citizens who were of German origin into camps for security readons. Go figure…

            Tell your Arabs to give up their quest to destroy us and then come back and criticize us if we are not nice to them.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “a conflict which has nothing to do with you”

            You seem to be implying that you have more of a right to be interested in what +972 publishes and more of a right to comment here than I do. Why? This complaint of yours is a disguised version of your unhappiness with the very existence of the English language +972 Magazine and its Israeli writers, Gustav. A publication aimed primarily at the very non-Israeli audience you claim are suspect because they are not Israeli. This underscores why +972 Magazine is so necessary. And so frustrating to you.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            There is nothing disguised about my unhapiness with the one sided and biased contents of this publication, Benny. It gives ammunition to people like you to hate and vilify my country without looking at the full context of what we are up against.

            As I said. There is nothing intelligent about incessant biased one sided and often hypocritical criticizm of one side while entirely whitewashing the other side. It is known as obsessive destructive criticizm as opposed to constructive criticizm which is tempered with perspective and which I am not against.

            Individuals like you who already hate us gleefully seize the opportunity that this magazine offers you to demonize us. But I still don’t get why individuals like you are so obsessed with Israel alone when there is so much worse evil going on in many other places, including surrounding countries in the region and sometimes even in your own countries.

            I could understand such an obsession with someone who is somehow involved. If they are either an Arab or Jewish. But a non Arab non Jewish individual obsessing only about us, day in and day out incessantly? Such an individual must be driven by hatred or if you prefer, by monetary rewards?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “I mean better arrangements than the ones that were arranged with Hezbollah after our last war with them.”

            You are not occupying Lebanon. You got kicked out of there. You never arranged anything with Hezbollah after they kicked you out. But you can definitely arrange good arrangements with the Palestinians. And you know that. It was not Hassan Nasrallah who said:

            “Palestine now for me is the ’67 borders, with East Jerusalem as its capital. This is now and forever. This is Palestine for me. I am a refugee, but I am living in Ramallah. I believe that the West Bank and Gaza is Palestine, everything else is Israel. I want to see Safed, it’s my right to see it but not to live there.”

            Edo Konrad:

            http://972mag.com/hebrons-palestinians-need-hope-not-military-rule/114241/

            “Here’s an idea: end five decades of military rule, stop depriving millions of their rights, and convey to Palestinian youths the sense that they have control over their lives.

            In other words: end the occupation.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Why are you feigning ignorance Benny? Now read this…

            “The Resolution calls for “full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state.”

            This was part of the condition for cease fire in Lebanon. It was never implemented. So obviously with your Palestinian Arabs we will have to have something more reliable in place because Hamas is no more reliable than Hezbollah and no less hostile to us.

            PS
            As to who whooped who in Lebanon, with any more “victories” such as Hezbollah supposedly scored against us, and there would be no more Lebanon. Hezbollah knew that, that’s why at the time they couldn’t wait to sign the terms which they later broke.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “Yes. … Certainly no evacuation of any of Gush Etzion….”

            Well that’s what I thought. Ariel, Ma’aleh Adumim, all of “the Gush Etzion bloc”–the latter an outright fraud:

            http://972mag.com/the-fraud-of-gush-etzion-israels-mythological-settlement-bloc/102133/

            Well. Ariel is also another fraud, only a “bloc” in the conniving settler imagination; it is by no stretch of the imagination “close in;” it’s an aggressive snaking finger deep into the West Bank. Ditto with Efrat and other aggressive settlements that have nothing to do with the original Gush Etzion. Ma’aleh Adumim of course means you just also gotta have E1, naturally!, and is likewise designed to be joined with occupied East Jerusalem and tear the West Bank into pieces at yet one more point. All of these were located by design to make the West Bank noncontiguous. To tear it to pieces. So you can’t possibly claim to take a Palestinian state seriously or expect any Palestinian leader to agree to this. And so with that it’s clear that you are in pursuit of no reasonable agreement with them. You expect surrender. As you said. Which won’t happen. So what you’re really saying is you want to make two states impossible. Which leaves one state. Your choice.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Utter NONSENSE and pure propaganda, your claim that unless we give up places like Maale Adumim, the Palestinian Arab state is non viable. Now look at the map in the following link and say it with a straight face again. If you do, then I know that you really are not advocating a peaceful solution.

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27ale_Adumim

            We simply are not going to root up 39,200 of our people for a risky peace which may not even work out given the sizable support that Hamas enjoys amongst your Palestinian Arabs. What happened to the idea of land swaps instead?

            Here is a thought for you. If places like Monaco, San Marino are viable statelets then the WB without places like Maale Adumim are viable too.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            …Which leaves one state. Your choice.

            Which brings us to this:

            http://972mag.com/why-israels-education-minister-thinks-hope-is-dangerous/114027/

            “If the Israeli Right’s annexationist ideology succeeds at sabotaging Palestinian ambitions for an independent state, will Israeli right wingers suddenly be willing to guarantee equal rights for all those living in this land? Will those who speak of equality and progressive values continue to insist on Jewish hegemonic control of politics, security, land ownership and the economy?”

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BEN…Which leaves one state. Your choice:”

            Nope. You are wrong again.

            We can either wait for as long as necessary till your Arabs grow some brains and agree to sign a peace deal with us such as the one I outlined above. Hey, we are a very patient people, Benny.

            Or, if they turn to be bloody minded, we can be bloody minded too. I am sure you believe me when I say that since you have no problems of accusing us of bloody mindedness even when we are not bloody minded.

            To sum up, here are the three choices…

            1. Compromise. That means the Arabs compromise too, not just us. For example, they specifically recognize the Jewish nation state.

            2. Things go on as they are.

            3. Both of us (Arabs and Jews) become even more bloody minded than we have been with each other.

            We will never go along with option 4. Which you and your Arabs advocate, Benny. We will never go along with a ‘lose’ for us and a ‘win’ for your Arabs, Benny-leh.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            LoL. Chicanery it seems is inseparable from justifying the “blocs.” Your little red dot in no way represents the huge Ma’aleh Adumim “bloc” inside the segregation wall and the way it and E1 cut off access to East Jerusalem and make a contiguous state impossible. Go to any honest map. Ma’aleh Adumim, like so much else, is pure strategic obstructionism. You insist on Ma’aleh Adumim, you insist on One State. > > > >

            http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/26/the-settlement-that-broke-the-two-state-solution/

            “Ma’aleh Adumim was established to break Palestinian contiguity,” Benny Kashriel, the town’s mayor since 1992, told the Jerusalem Report in 2004. …if we weren’t here, Palestinians could connect their villages….

            “It’s nonsense,” Benvenisti retorts. “People want to believe there’s hope for the two-state solution, they believe it’s the only game in town. Forget it.” … “You can’t build a Palestinian state in the West Bank — the settlements [and road infrastructure built for them] have permanently cantonized the territory,” he avers. “Yes, E-1 will certainly cut Jerusalem off from Ramallah in the north and Hebron in the south — but they’re already cut off.”

            He keeps going, ticking off the other fractures on the land where Palestinians hope to build their state: Jenin and Nablus are similarly cut off, he says. Netanyahu’s plans to build a settlement in southern Jerusalem will sever the city’s links to Bethlehem. “All this talk about a two-state solution, about a viable, contiguous Palestinian state with a capital in Jerusalem — who’s kidding whom?”

            And, yes the mythological “Gush Etzion Bloc” is a fraud. As Hillel Bardin and Dror Etkes explained.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “Britain is not a small country fighting a 100 year war.” Neither is Israel. Israel is perpetuating a 48-year illegal occupation and land grab. In the age of the Arab Peace Initiative offering full relations and a comprehensive peace with 71 countries it is transparent propaganda to mumble about “their quest to destroy us.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BEN:” it is transparent propaganda to mumble about “their quest to destroy us.”

            It is transparent propaganda that Hamas which received the majority of the votes inthe last democratic elections held by Palestinian Arabs is not clearly intent on fighting us to the bitter end. Our end, they hope.

            And that’s just being kind coz I am not convinced that the PA is not a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Yah you’re real secure now with stabbers in your streets. No occupied people in history did not resort to violence when nonviolent means of resistance were ruthlessly, violently shut down. You’re so FOS it’s impossible to describe.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            The heart of *all* your bluster, of your whole set of rationales–i.e., “if your Palestinian Arabs agree to sign a peace deal with us”–is absolutely *not* the policy of your government! On the face of it! So excuse me WTF are you even talking about? > > > >

            http://972mag.com/nobody-is-coming-to-end-the-occupation/114274/
            “The current Israeli government, of course, has no desire or intention to advance the two-state solution. A sizeable and powerful bloc of ministers and coalition members do not support the two-state solution even in theory. Instead they advocate various iterations and variations of annexation, a one-state solution reminiscing apartheid, and an if-it-ain’t-broken strategy that would cement the current status quo into a permanent solution.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            So speaks Benny the self appointed “peace maker” who in reality is nothing more than a parrot, parroting Arab demands like…

            1. Israel must agree to accept the so called right of return.

            2. Israel must root up hundreds of thousands of our citizens from their homes.

            3. Give up East Jerusalem

            4. Take risks for a peace which would more than likely turn into another war.

            And in return he offers what exactly?

            Not even recognition of the Jewish nation state which even the UN mentioned as a Jewish state. And which the Arabs rejected and have been fighting to try and eradicate for nearly 100 years.

            And after all that, Benny tries to pretend that we are the ones who rejected peace, not his Arabs. Benny has a hide as thick, no thicker, than the hide of a rhino. Benny is unembarrassable.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Your stupid maps show absolutely nothing Benny.

            First of all it is based on the premise that we are willing to let East Jerusalem become the capital of the new Palestinian Arab state. We are not.

            Jerusalem has been a Jewish majority city for over 150 years. There has never been a sovereign Arab Palestinian state with Jerusalem as it’s capital. So what makes you think that we are willing to divide Jerusalem, Benny?

            At best, we are willing to give them some power sharing in the East Jerusalem sector and that is already being very generous because legally, we are not obliged to accept Arab claims to ANY part of Jerusalem which has been the capital of a Jewish state way before the Arab invasion and colonization of this land in the sixth century.

            Reply to Comment
          • Israel

            “Jerusalem has been a Jewish majority city for over 150 years.”

            False, and completely irrelevant had it been true.

            “There has never been a sovereign Arab Palestinian state with Jerusalem as it’s capital”

            There has never been a sovereign Israeli state with Jerusalem as its capital.

            “Jerusalem which has been the capital of a Jewish state way before the Arab invasion and colonization of this land in the sixth century.”

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            Reply to Comment
          • Araby

            Even though I am an Arab, I don’t deny history. Here read what Karl Marx wrote about the Jews of Jerusalem in 1854.

            “the sedentary population of Jerusalem numbers about 15,500 souls, of whom 4,000 are Mussulmans and 8,000 Jews. The Mussulmans, forming about a fourth part of the whole, and consisting of Turks, Arabs and Moors, are, of course, the masters in every respect, as they are in no way affected with the weakness of their Government at Constantinople. Nothing equals the misery and the sufferings of the Jews at Jerusalem, inhabiting the most filthy quarter of the town, called hareth-el-yahoud, the quarter of dirt, between the Zion and the Moriah, where their synagogues are situated – the constant objects of Mussulman oppression”

            https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm

            Reply to Comment
          • Israel

            “Even though I am an Arab, I don’t deny history. Here read what Karl Marx wrote about the Jews of Jerusalem in 1854.”

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BS and utter nonsensical propaganda. Benny and his extreme leftist compadres try to pretend that a township of 39,000 souls next to the green line would make a new Palestinian Arab state non viable.

            Again, Benny, have you heard of Monaco? Have you heard of San Marino? Have you even heard of the Vatican? All those statelets are viable because everyone cooperates.

            The only reason for your Maale Adumim objection is because you like your Arabs don’t want to see a peaceful settlement of this conflict.

            Benny accused me of being against land swaps but it is clear that he is the one against it coz he is against a peaceful solution.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Well, LoL, a confession extracted. All you do is doubly confirm the East Jerusalem-E1-Ma’aleh Adumim-segregation barrier strategic obstructionism Grand Strategy, deliberately designed to so tear apart the West Bank as to make a 2SS impossible.

            Look. At. The. Two. Maps. They do not lie. It does not get clearer.

            If it were only about East Jerusalem (by itself an obstructionist deal breaker to any fair minded person) you would not need Ma’aleh Adumim and you would not need E1. But you gotta have it. Why?

            And even apart from the East Jerusalem-E1-Ma’aleh Adumim-segregation barrier thrust the West Bank has already been hopelessly cantonized. You’d agree if, you, cantonizer, didn’t treat the cantonized with utter racist disdain which you would never suffer to endure for your own.

            Go tell it to Meron Benvenisti. You purvey fraudulence. Is Benvenisti anybody’s fool? He is not. Is Benvenisti a “hater”? LoL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “We simply are not going to root up 39,200 of our people for a risky peace which may not even work out.”

            Compare and contrast:

            “We simply are not going to blatantly illegally transfer 39,200 of our people into belligerently occupied territory for a risky settlement “enterprise” which may not even work out.”

            So interesting how you guys are reckless gamblers going one way (East) but oh-so-careful and sober non-risk takers when going the other way (West). LoL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            So speaks Benny the self appointed “peace maker” who in reality is nothing more than a parrot, parroting Arab demands like…

            1. Israel must agree to accept the so called right of return.

            2. Israel must root up hundreds of thousands of our citizens from their homes.

            3. Give up East Jerusalem

            4. Take risks for a peace which would more than likely turn into another war.

            And in return he offers what exactly?

            Not even recognition of the Jewish nation state which even the UN mentioned as a Jewish state. And which the Arabs rejected and have been fighting to try and eradicate for nearly 100 years.

            And after all that, Benny tries to pretend that we are the ones who rejected peace, not his Arabs. Benny has a hide as thick, no thicker, than the hide of a rhino. Benny is unembarrassable.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            There is nothing illegal about Maale Adumim no matter how often you repeat that allegation.

            Maale Adumim is not built on Palestinian Arab lands since a sovereign Arab Palestinian state NEVER existed, so how can we occupy lands of a state which never existed? The only lands that we DO occupy are lands on which Palestinian Arabs actually live because they obviously own those lands. Any other lands, like Maale Adumim and Gush Etzion where we live, are ours.

            Now Benny dear, are you going to answer my point about Monaco, San Marino and the Vatican which are much smaller statelets surrounded by other countries yet they are viable. So how come you think that the West Bank, which is much bigger than those tiny statelets, is not viable without Maale Adumim? (I don’t expect Benny to answer this coz he just cannot answer it LOL).

            Could it be because you know full well that no Israeli government which the majority of Israelis are willing to vote for, can afford to repeat the forceful evacuation of 39,000 of our people particularly after the Gaza fiasco when we evacuated 10,000 of our people and all we got for it was more rockets and wall to wall denial by polemicists like you that it was even a good will gesture on our part.

            Benny, we are not slow learners. We learnt our lesson from Gaza. We got abuse and rockets for our good will gesture, so now, no more good will gestures. Maybe you should learn a lesson from that too? If you keep on being intransigent and demanding while offering nothing, we too will dig our heels in.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Ok let’s get real. It is obvious to anyone who is not blind or dumb that the Arabs and Benny prefer the current situation to peace and cooperation.

            Under the current scenario, Benny and his Arabs are free to whine, accuse, comit terrorim and vilify Israel and blame it on “the occupation”. In short, they can maintain their 100 year war on us.

            Contrast it to what would happen if they would sign a peace deal and go down on a path of cooperation.

            For a start, there would be agreed borders. So, could we then take over new lands outside our agreed borders? Of course we couldn’t. Would the occupation continue? No it would not.

            The only problem for Benny and his Arabs would be that they would no longer have their excuse to fight their relentless war on us and they would lose all hope of chasing us outa here so that they could create the 23rd Arab Muslim land between the river and the sea. And Benny and his Arabs don’t want to give up that hope. So the PA pretends to try to make peace but without really trying while Hamas does not even pretend to try to make peace.

            So what are the Bennies of this world to do? Easy peesy Japanese… They just blame us for it all. Never mind Benny, you will die a disappointed old man (maybe with a bit of luck you won’t even be old. But disappointed you will be, that’s for sure).

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “an Israeli leader presenting him or herself as a peacemaker while pledging allegiance to the unity of Jerusalem (or insisting that the settlement of Ariel will remain in Israeli sovereignty, or that Israel will not accept a single Palestinian refugee, and so on) must be recognized as a coward or a charlatan. … If and when the obvious mutual interest in partition is translated into effective political will, there will be no need for an intricate process, and seemingly irreversible facts on the ground will crumble under the unstoppable force of self-interest. Until then, let us hold off on peace-processing – for the sake of peace.

            http://www.haaretz.com/peace/1.688934

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BEN:”An Israeli leader presenting him or herself as a peacemaker while pledging allegiance to the unity of Jerusalem”

            Yep the unity of Jerusalem the capital of the Jewish state of ancient Judea and which was never in the history of mankind the capital of a Palestinian Arab state. Jerusalem, a city with a majority Jewish population for the last 150 years barring a short period between 1948 and 1967 (19 years) when it was under Arab occupation during which they ethnicaly cleansed East Jerusalem of Jews.

            Fancy that. An Israeli leader insisting that Jerusalem remains united with Jews controlling it. Fancy that, who would have thunk … Oh enough nonsense. That’s the way it will be. Stop pretending that’s the reason peace is impossible. It’s much worse than that, Bennyleh. Your Arabs don’t want to see a Jewish state at all. Don’t believe me? Ask Hamas. Then do your sums and check the level of support which Hamas enjoys (not that the PA is any better than Hamas).

            BEN:” (or insisting that the settlement of Ariel will remain in Israeli sovereignty”

            Yep, fancy that. Lotsa Israeli Jews live in Ariel. We will not uproot them from their homes. I thought you were in favor of land swaps. Obviously you were just kidding, right Benny?

            BEN:”or that Israel will not accept a single Palestinian refugee, and so on)”

            Again, fancy that, Benny.

            In any case, didn’t you claim that we are an apartheid state, Benny? Why would ANY Palestinian Arab fall over backwards to come to live amongst us “Evil Israelis”? Mmmmmmm Benny? Are they masochists? Or is your claim about “Israel the Apartheid state” just a big porky? A big lie?

            The contradictions never end Benny. That’s what happens when people lie habitually.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            With his question about Gush Etzion, Benny is trying to create the impression that by keeping it we would be stealing Arab lands. Nothing is further from the truth. Here is a very brief history of Gush Etzion…

            “The core settlements of Gush Etzion before 1948 were Kfar Etzion, Massu’ot Yitzhak, Ein Tzurim and Revadim, built on tracts of land purchased in the early 1920s.[5] From November 29, 1947, Kfar Etzion was under siege and cut off from Jerusalem. On May 13, 1948, when the village surrendered, 127 Jewish inhabitants were massacred by the Arab Legionor local village irregulars or both.The other villages surrendered the next day. The inhabitants were taken prisoner and the homes were plundered and burned.[6]
            The establishment, defense and fall of Gush Etzion have been described as “one of the major episodes of the State of Israel-in-the-making”, playing a significant role in Israeli collective memory.[7] The motivation for resettling the region is not so much ideological, political or security-related as symbolic, linked in the Israeli psyche to the massive loss of life in the Israeli War of Independence.[8]”

            Anyone interested can read more here….

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Etzion

            Reply to Comment
          • Israel

            “Jerusalem the capital of the Jewish state of ancient Judea…”

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            Reply to Comment
          • Araby

            Poor old Benny is suffering from denial syndrome, LOL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Israel

            Poor deluded Zionist oxygen thief is suffering from ziotard syndrome, LOL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “Good will gesture”

            Anyone who knows the true history of Gaza, the unilateral withdrawal, purely in the service of keeping the West Bank forever, with contemptuous refusal to even talk to the PA, followed by total occupation of Gaza’s borders, airspace, and sea coast, and economy, followed by Israeli-US-backed coup against its democratically elected government, etcetera, knows how completely FOS you are to use a phrase like “good will gesture.” Utterly shameless propaganda, cynicism unbounded.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            The Jewish residents in Gaza were uprooted forcefully and were bodily removed by the IDF while kicking and screaming. That is not what you and your Arabs wanted Benny? Then why are you constantly whining about the settlers?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Enough. All you’re doing is repeating yourself, literally. I’ve made my case, I’ve refuted your malarkey about Ma’aleh Adumim, Gush Etzion, Ariel, etc. I’ve described the fraudulence and the chicanery. I’ve summed up the peace processing baloney. Go tell it to Meron Benvenisti. You can repeat yourself ad infinitum. It won’t do any good.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            I will repeat myself as often as you repeat yourself about the occupation, Benny, if necessary thousands of times. I am game if you are game.

            And you refuted nothing, Benny-leh. You did not even answer my question about why little statelets like Monaco, San Marino are viable even though they are surrounded by other states and are much smaller than the West Bank.

            Ya couldn’t even answer a simple question like that Benny-leh. You wanna know why? Coz the answer is cooperation. Monaco and San Marino know how to cooperate with their nighbors unlike your Palestinian Arabs who still believe in their supremacist ideology of wanting the 23rd Arab Muslim state to replace the solitary Jewish state. It will never happen Benny-leh. No matter how much and for how long they and people like you whine about it.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BEN:”So easy to neutralize bullshit”

            Indeed it is Benny. So let me again neutralize YOUR BS.

            1. There has never been a sovereign Palestinian Arab East Jerusalem.

            2. There isn’t a sovereign Palestinian Arab East Jerusalem.

            3. There never will be a sovereign Palestinian Arab East Jerusalem.

            Ergo, your map means nothing Benny. It only represents your wishful thinking. So it is just a straw man argument.

            Reply to Comment
          • Israel

            #Self-neutralizingZionistOxygenThieves #LOL@PsychoticZionistMouthBreathers
            #RacistZionistRetardHasbaraFail

            1. There has never been a sovereign Israeli Jerusalem.

            2. There isn’t a sovereign Israeli Jerusalem.

            3. There never will be a sovereign Israeli Jerusalem.

            Ergo, your moronic hasbara is nothing but meaningless Zionist masturbation, which only represents your broken delusional “thinking”, Zionist oxygen thief.

            Reply to Comment
          • Araby

            Benny-leh throwing a tantrum, LOL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Israel

            Ineffectual ziotard-leh using a sockpuppet, LOL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            A map of things as they actually are on the ground today–Arab East Jerusalem-E1-Ma’aleh Adumim-Segregation Barrier-Gush Etzion…–is “a straw man.” I love it. Nothing better illustrates the stubborn illusions of the Right Wing. As Rogel Alpher sadly wrote, “…And thus, to the Jews of Israel and the world, reality itself is a kind of provocation. When life is an illusion, reality is a provocation.”
            http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.688870

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BS alert…. the BS meter is off the scale.

            What Benny is doing is the equivalent of Jews claiming Mecca as our own. And then pointing to the map and throwing a tantrum about Mecca being enclosed by Arab lands and unless the Arabs evacuate those lands, they are war mongers.

            Pathetic, Benny would say to that. I agree. But his and his Arab’s claims about Jerusalem and Maale Adumim are equally pathetic.

            Ok censors, do your worst. My second attempt to publish this post.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BS alert…. the BS meter is off the scale.

            What Benny is doing is the equivalent of Jews claiming Mecca as our own. And then pointing to the map and throwing a tantrum about Mecca being enclosed by Arab lands and unless the Arabs evacuate those lands, they are war mongers.

            Pathetic, Benny would say to that. I agree. But his and his Arab’s claims about Jerusalem and Maale Adumim are equally pathetic.

            Ok censors, do your worst. My third attempt to publish this post.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            When life is an illusion, reality is a provocation.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            When Benny cannot argue his case he slaps on a slogan. LOL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            …but Benny, since you brought reality into our conversation, let me remind you of reality…

            1. You made no case for your claim that East Jerusalem should be the capital of the new Palestinian Arab state.

            2. We are in control of ALL of Jerusalem, including East Jerusalem which has always been one city with the rest of Jerusalem except for a brief period between 1948 and 1967 when it was under occupation by Jordan.

            3. Jerusalem was and still is a majority Jewish city since the mid 1800s even decent Arabs admit this fact.

            So you are the one who is entertaining illusions when you refer to East Jerusalem as the capital of the 23rd Arab Muslim state coz we will never give up Jerusalem. Not a single inch of it, Benny!

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            The map clearly confounds you. Nothing like a map.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            What about the map, Benny? It has as much relevance to our discussion as the phase of the moon has, in other words, it has no relevance. I already explained to you why. Did you go to special school, Benny?

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Here, let me explain it to you again, Benny dear…

            What you are trying to do with your silly map is the equivalent of Jews pointing at the map and claiming Mecca as our own. And then pointing to the map and throwing a tantrum about Mecca being enclosed by Arab lands and unless the Arabs evacuate those lands, they are war mongers.

            Pathetic, Benny would say to that. I agree. But his and his Arab’s claims about Jerusalem and Maale Adumim are equally pathetic.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Noooo. The map has as much relevance to our discussion as a map of the phases of the moon has to a discussion of the phases of the moon.

            https://mondediplo.com/1999/11/08israel

            “The reason for the generous allocation of land and massive construction is related to Israel’s overriding geopolitical objectives in the Occupied Territories. Due to its strategic location – 7 kilometres east of Jerusalem on the Jerusalem-Jericho road – the Ma’aleh Adumim expansion plan has repercussions beyond the territorial area it encompasses. It would, if implemented, preempt the outcome of some of the major issues to be determined in the final status negotiations: the borders of Israel, the viability of the Palestinian state and the status of Jerusalem….

            “Jerusalem is at the heart of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Ma’aleh Adumim and its planned expansion play a major role in Israel’s intention of consolidating its illegal annexation of Arab East Jerusalem. By connecting the largest Jewish settlement to Jerusalem, the expansion plan will incorporate extensive areas from the West Bank surrounding Jerusalem into Israel and further isolate the Palestinians of East Jerusalem from those in the West Bank. The plan would also hinder a territorial link between the northern and southern parts of the West Bank, in particular between Ramallah and Bethlehem: the only access would be through Israeli-held territory. It would also impede the viability of the Palestinian state, for which territorial contiguity is a necessity.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Benny’s above comment summarises what successive Israeli governments have been up against. Constant circular arguments.

            Benny’s argument is based on the assumption that East Jerusalem would be the capital of the new Palestinian Arab state. It won’t because we will never agree to divide Jerusalem. If we can’t even agree on that then there you have it. Maale Adumim does not even enter the discussion. We won’t have peace till we resolve the Jerusalem issue. If and when we agree on Jerusalem, that it remains undivided, then again Maale Adumim should not be an issue because it won’t be cutting off any part of Jerusalem. How could it?

            As for the rest of the West Bank, the position of previous Israeli governments was to keep the major settlement blocs. Offer landswaps for those while small isolated settlements would be wound up so that we can finally agree on borders.

            But agreeing on borders has been a nightmare to the Arabs and their extreme leftist supporters because that would finalize the conflict and end their excuses to continue their relentless war on the Jewish state. That’s why they come up with circular arguments and that’s why they steadfastly refuse to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            I have to go back to the beginning of this discussion…

            The Arabs have been guilty of a 100 year war of agression against the Jewish state which they sought to eradicate.

            Never in the history of mankind has the side which committed agression and lost militarily, never in the history of mankind has such a side been able to impose it’s terms against the other side. The Arabs think that this conflict will be the first to break that truism. It won’t.

            In some way, we can blame ourselves for that illusion by the Arabs. Our earlier governments have been too eager to try and please. They bent over backwards with compromises and made the Arabs believe that we would be willing to do anything for peace, even illusionary peace. So they, the Arabs, have come to the view that they have a commodity to sell us, “PEACE”, and they think they can extract a heavy price for it. And that they can force us to agree to terms that would weaken us perhaps fatally. But they are the ones who are under an illusion. They are up against a resilient people who have exemplary survival instincts that’s why we are still here not just as survivors (from two millenia of unprecedented persecutions) but as a proud and thriving group of people who are going from strength to strength, much to the sorrow of our haters who just cannot stand the idea of our success. Benny, are you listening?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “We won’t have peace till we resolve the Jerusalem issue. If and when we agree on Jerusalem, that it remains undivided…”

            Let’s take a look.

            “We won’t have X till we resolve Y. If and when we agree on Y, ie., that they surrender on Y…”

            Er, interesting negotiating style you’re cultivating there. LoL.

            IMHO, you’re so hypernationalistically invested in surrender on Jerusalem that one can see the smoke coming out of your ears the second the issue is even raised and all rational discussion goes out the window.

            Somewhere along the line Israelis seem to have convinced themselves, but no one else, that some mystical percentage “consensus” among themselves “solves” any issue. It’s an eccentric idea.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Yes Benny. Interesting negotiating style. No one negotiates away part of their capital city. Such an idea seems to be entertained only with regards to Israel. It won’t happen. Nothing to negotiate there Benny. You would not negotiate to give part of Washington away to an agressor who has been fighting 100 years of war against your country. In fact you would not fight a 100 year against such an enemy. You would nuke them. That’s what you did to Japan.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “Our haters” is a base ad hominem tactic. What’s new. The analogy to Washington is not honest. It bears repeating: when life is an illusion, reality is a provocation. You can stamp your feet and jump up and down but Jerusalem is irreducibly, indisputably to any reasonable, fair-minded, solution-seeking person, an international city, and does not simply belong to “the Jewish people.” Reality on the ground is what it is: complicated. And not some mystical “eternal” ethnoreligious ideal. You have defied the international community and violated the Geneva conventions over this for 48 years. The EU, ICC, UNSC, UNGA all consider East Jerusalem to be part of the West Bank and occupied by Israel. Even your own High Court of Justice, with a variety of different justices sitting, has repeatedly stated for more than four decades that Israel’s presence in the West Bank is in violation of international law. Confederation? Protectorate? Division? You must decide. Annexation is not recognized by a single country including the USA. Not one. Ever. And you can’t blame that on Obama though you might try.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Boooooooring! Benny is displaying his usual dishonesty again.

            Up till now he pretended that East Jerusalem is indisputably the capital city of the shiny new proposed Arab Muslim state. Of course he could never justify on what basis.

            Now that his argument looks untenable even to him, suddenly Jerusalem is an international city.

            Now please define what is an international city, Benny? Is there another international city anywhere else in the world? Why do people like you want to always experiment on us in this way?

            Don’t bother answering that question Benny. I am sick of your smart arse answers when you have nothing sensible to say. I might laugh with you if you were a bit more likeable but you are obnoxious.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Boooooooooring, Benny.

            Make up your mind. What is your real claim? Is E. Jerusalem…

            1. The capital of the new “shiny” palestinian Arab/Muslim state?

            Or ist …

            2. An international city?

            You started with 1. Now you shifted to 2. And you know very well that 1. Is NOT 2.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            I already told you: Confederation? Protectorate? Division? You must decide. And work it out in good faith negotiations. Creeping annexation is not recognized but if you were to formally annex the whole West Bank (this includes East Jerusalem) in the context of a final status accord you’d get yourself One State. The whole Land! You’ll have to extend all inhabitants full citizenship unless you really want to bring the anti-apartheid furies down on you. Decisions, decisions. You’ve worked nonstop for 48 years to make it as hard to divide as possible then you whine about how hard it is. You didn’t listen over five decades. Now you complain. Oy! But you’ll have to do it. You’ve done harder things. Buck up. Personally I think division is best. 67 lines w/ swaps…. But I wouldn’t dream of telling you what to do.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Nope Benny, you never tell a consistent story. The only thing which is consistent about you is your apparent hatred of Israel and obsessive love for the Palestinian Arabs which manifests itself by your constant attempt to whitewash them and absolve them of all responsibility for what went and is going wrong.

            Now let me remind you of what you told me…

            You told me that we must uproot 39,000 of our people from Maale Adumim because Maale Adumim would render East Jerusalem non viable as the capital of the shiny new Palestinian Arab state.

            Have you now changed your mind since you mention confederation of (Jerusalem as a joint capital?) if yes, then that renders your claim about Maale Adumim non relevant coz if you think we are capable of cooperating with each other in Jerusalem then surely Maale Adumim should not be a problem either.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Very interesting proposal. And the Palestinians get to move to the coastal plain, Haifa, Tel Aviv, etc.? Because if you think you and they are capable of cooperating with each other in Ma’aleh Adumim why not there too right? Instead of 67 lines with swaps you could have no lines with swaps. Very interesting. We’re finally getting somewhere.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Poor old Benny. He is confused again. I wasn’t the one who proposed the idea of a confederated Jerusalem. He was.

            I just pointed out that if he thinks that such a proposal would work then there would be no need for us to uproot 39,000 of our people from Maale Adumim.

            Now folks I don’t know whether Benny is confused or he is trying to confuse everyone else. But he is talking about moving his WB Palestinian Arabs amongst us into Israel proper, it must be a wet dream of his. Mind you, for the life of me I don’t know why he does not see the contradiction in his own arguments. I mean why would he want to move his “poor all suffering Arabs” amongst us? Doesn’t he always claim that Israel is an apartheid state?

            What gives Benny? Why do you want your Arabs to live in an “apartheid state”? Or are you tacitly admitting that your claim that Israel is an apartheid state is just your GIANT HOAX? Also known as A LIE and PROPAGANDA?

            See Benny? That’s what happens to LIARS like you. You get trapped in your own contradictions. LOL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Oh and before his latest brainstorm about a confederated Jerusalem, Benny claimed that East Jerusalem is the capital of the shiny new Palestinian Arab Muslim state. But for the life of him he could not bring up a single reason to justify his outlandish demand. His only justification seemed to be that his Arabs want it to be so. And that’s it. According to Benny, because his Arabs want it to be so, it must be so, LOL.

            And that’s not all. Benny then considered it a foregone conclusion that it will be so and he then tried to use that as an excuse to uproot 39,000 of our people from their homes in Maale Adumim in order to make his East Jerusalem idea viable. You must do it he claims, otherwise his East Jerusalem idea would not be viable.

            That’s the very definition of Hutzpah. We must do something, according to Benny, that would make something that we don’t want to be viable. A double whammy. Not only you bloody Joos have to give up East Jerusalem, but to make it work for his Arabs, he wants us to give up Maale Adumim too.

            This guy, Benny, is unhinged, I tell ya all…

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “he is talking about moving his WB Palestinian Arabs amongst us into Israel proper”

            But, you’re talking about moving “Gussie’s Jews” among “Benny’s Arabs” in the West Bank. You want your peanut butter with my chocolate but not my chocolate with your peanut butter. What gives?

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            What gives Benny-leh? Many things give.

            Firstly, we are already in Maale Adumim and we have every right to be there since your Arabs made war on us and we need Maale Adumim as part of our security corridor.

            Your WB Arabs on the other hand are in the WB, not in our coastal plane which WE control and we say they can’t come. Get it?

            Thirdly, there is the itsy bitsy (I mean gigantic) contradiction in your demand and your other claims. You claim that we practice apartheid against our Arab citizens. Yet you want to bring your WB Arabs to live in such a state? Whats da matta Benny-leh? Do you hate your WB Arabs so much that you want them to live in “an apartheid” state? Or is your claim that we ARE an apartheid state a LIE? Which is it Benny-leh? Wanna clear dat up for us? Nah… I doubt that you do. Too embarrassing huh?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “we need Maale Adumim as part of our security corridor.”

            LoL.

            ““an apartheid” state blah blah blah”

            “Israel” (where are the borders?) inclusive of its occupied territories is most definitely a rogue apartheid “state.” If you made it One State with full democratic rights for all it would not be an apartheid state. It’s elementary my dear Gusty.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Where are the borders asks Benny innocently.

            His Arabs don’t want to reach agreement on borders. So if we talk annexation Benny complains but if we wait to see what borders his Arabs agree to, Benny complains and asks where are the borders. It seems, Benny and his Arabs just cannot be pleased.

            Ok, we no longer care if we please them or not. Hey Benny, go ask your mother where the borders are. The important thing is that we are here and WE control what happens not you, not your Arabs, not even your mother, and no one else really cares. Do ya hear me Benny? People are getting wise and time is not on the side of your Palestinian Arabs.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            If we wanted to grab ALL the land between the river and the sea (like your Arabs do, Benny-leh) we would have done it long ago. So cut out yor BS straw men arguments.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Honestly nothing shows up the game going on here better than the abject lie that you don’t want all the land. Of course you do. You can’t have it all but you do *want* it. They can’t have it all but they *want* it. (If either of you could have you would have taken it all. But you can’t. And you won’t. No matter what some of you think “God” is telling you.) This is a not uncommon situation in life. It’s why compromises are made. It’s why people talk about impulse control. About values. About priorities. About laws. You must think we are children. No one blames you for *wanting* it. They blame you for not growing up and admitting there is another people in this land too and you simply can’t have it all. When you sit there and tell me “oh no, *we* don’t want it–but *they* do!” I know you’re not reckoning honestly with yourself or me. Lotta malarkey.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Wow, now Benny blames us even for coveting something as opposed to actually taking it. What a fool.

            Would we want all of what used to be our ancestral homeland? Of course we would, were it a practical possibility. But we know we can’t have it all because together with the land we would get people who cannot stand the very idea of our existence in this region.

            Now Benny, I happen to know that you covet lots more money than you have. I bet you’d like to have millions of dollars. Yet I don’t accuse you of being a bank robber just coz you want it.

            I do however accuse you of being a hateful liar and a relentless propaganda merchant. Howzat?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            B: “No one blames you for *wanting* it”

            G: “Benny blames us even for coveting something”

            G: “Now Benny, I happen to know that you covet lots more money than you have”

            Enough said. The illogic, the deceit, the petty ad hominem and “I know what I know even though I don’t know it” attitude is transparently evident.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            BEN:”…the petty ad hominem…”

            Poor Benny, when all else fails, he plays the victim…

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Yes Benny, we got Jerusalem. Cry me lotsa tears, Benny-leh.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            I realize you never actually read Shalev, so, out of consideration for your deprivation, from me to you (don’t say I never did anything for you): “No, what got their gander up was that Trump refused to pay homage – or perhaps lip service is more appropriate – to their pie in the sky fantasy of “Jerusalem the eternal undivided capital of Israel.” That was when they booed, not when Trump was typecasting American Jews. Which is doubly ironic, because over the course of the last few weeks most people, American Jews and Israelis alike, have woken up from the daydream of a “united” Jerusalem. … But his refusal to perpetuate this “undivided” Jerusalem mythology was more provocative in their eyes than Trump’s hopefully clueless resuscitation of an anti-Semitic trope that traces its roots 2,000 years to Judas taking 30 pieces of silver to betray Jesus.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Tell it to someone who cares Benny-leh.

            I know why you bring this nonsense up. Even you sense deep down that you lost your argument. So you use this story as a distraction.

            You are so predictable, Benny-leh.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “this nonsense”

            Powerful argument! LoL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            No it isn’t Benny-leh. My excuse is that I don’t feel like arguing about your new red herring, Donald Trump, whom you suddenly introduced to sidetrack from our earlier discussion which you have been losing badly.

            But when you use such tactics, your arguments are equally useless. When you just say the word “nonsense” and think that saying so beats a logical argument. The difference between us Benny is that I admit it. And I don’t use such tactics often. You however, end up using such tactics constantly. Instead of just admitting the error of your ways. Poor Benny.

            Reply to Comment
      • andrew r

        This is a serious question, Ginger. Are you smoking crack?

        Reply to Comment
        • Daniel

          Actually, you have just confirmed that you should not be taken seriously with your extremely intelligent and eloquent argument to date. Bravo, Andrew R.!

          Reply to Comment
    2. Click here to load previous comments