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Who can say if it's 'apartheid' or not?

Why does most coverage discussing Israel and the ‘A-word’ exclude the voices of black South Africans?

Text and photo by: Ryan Rodrick Beiler/Activestills.org

Oded Shoshani, pastor of the Hebrew congregation of King of Kings in Jerusalem, listens as Moss Ntha, General Secretary of the Evangelical Alliance in South Africa, speaks at the Christ at the Checkpoint conference in the West Bank town of Bethlehem, March 13, 2014. (photo: Ryan Rodrick Beiler/Activestills.org)

Oded Shoshani, pastor of the Hebrew congregation of King of Kings in Jerusalem, listens as Moss Ntha, General Secretary of the Evangelical Alliance of South Africa, speaks at the Christ at the Checkpoint conference in the West Bank town of Bethlehem, March 13, 2014. (photo: Ryan Rodrick Beiler/Activestills.org)

Noticeably absent from most coverage of U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry’s use of the term “apartheid” are the voices most qualified to make the comparison. The Daily Beast article that broke the Kerry story at least quotes the 1998 Rome Statute, the definition of apartheid under international law: “inhumane acts… committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”

But rather than providing any further context as to whether this definition applies to Israel, the article then goes on to quote former President Jimmy Carter, President Barack Obama, Judge Richard Goldstone, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki, and American Jewish Committee director David Harris as to whether the use of the term is appropriate.

Unsurprisingly, Kerry immediately backpedaled once the comments were publicized, issuing an apology. The New York Times coverage of his damage control in turn quoted AIPAC statements, Senator Marco Rubio, J Street (you know, for balance) and Aaron David Miller.

With such coverage, it feels important to ask the question posed by Rev. Moss Ntlha, General Secretary of the Evangelical Alliance of South Africa, in his message to the Christ at the Checkpoint conference in Bethlehem this March (click here for video). After two trips to Israel and Palestine, the first initiated by Jewish friends, the second at the invitation of Palestinians, he recalls discussions upon returning home:

We talked about whether or not Israel was an apartheid state. I said, between you and me—I am black, you are white south African Jews—who do you think has more credibility in deciding whether or not whether this is apartheid?

Rev. Ntlha isn’t alone in his perspective; anti-apartheid stalwart Rev. Allan Boesak has made similar comments. In an interview about a forthcoming book co-authored with his daughter Reverend Mpho Tutu, yesterday, HuffPostLive asked Archbishop Desmond Tutu to comment on the Kerry controversy, with this response: “I visit the Holy Land and I see things that are a mirror image of the sort of things I experienced under the apartheid.” Why are these voices of such moral authority missing from more mainstream coverage?

Read more:
State Department stumbles: If not apartheid, then what?
Kerry apologizes for speculating that Israel could do something bad
If this isn’t apartheid, then what is it?

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    COMMENTS

    1. Rab

      Have you no shame?

      http://www.jewishchronicle.org/article.php?article_id=14783

      “December 1st, 2013

      “One of the biggest lies about Israel is that Israel is an apartheid state,” said Rev. Kenneth Meshoe, a Christian minister and a member of South Africa’s parliament.”

      Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        Talking about shame,Hass-Bar?

        Israel is not an Apartheid State and it will never be..

        Apartheid is a racially driven system of exploitation.

        But Israel doesn’t want to exploit Palestinians ,they want them gone,exterminated.

        Israel follows a model of ethnic purity,a system Jews have had some very unpleasant experiences with 70 years ago.

        It’s not surprising though,that 1897 Zionism copies this model,since the ideological and political roots are the same.

        Calling Israel an Apartheid State is a way to get 1897 Zionism off the hook,because what Zionism is doing is much worse,and will leave a stain and shame on Judaism that will not be erased for centuries.

        Reply to Comment
        • Tzutzik

          “Israel follows a model of ethnic purity,a system Jews have had some very unpleasant experiences with 70 years ago.”

          Actually noooooo!!! That is a shameless blood libel!!!

          Israel follows the philosophy that there has to be ONE state on this crazy planet of ours in which Jews have to be in the majority.

          Why? Because 2000 years of an absence of such a state while we were in exile, proved to us that we were too vulnerable to persecution as minorities. And after 2000 years of suffering humiliation, hatred, murder we have had enough of it. So we re-established ourselves in ONE place on this earth as a Jewish majority state, in Israel, so that we can defend ourselves from haters like you Shakhalnur when you and your kind try to persecute us again.

          Live with it!!!

          Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            I agree with you;

            Israel is not an Apartheid State ,and it will never be.

            I’m only a mirror,all my posts are.

            If you don’t like the image you see,that’s your problem,it’s your own reflection.

            But you’re not alone,people hating Jews openly,and not hidden like you,see the same image of themselves and call me all kinds of names as well.

            I must be doing something different.

            By the way,your short history of the Jews is rejected by most Euorpean Jews before and after WW2,and 17 million people that were born Jewish and turned their back on your version of Judaism and stopped being Jewish,since 1945.

            You already destroyed 2/3 of Judaism since 1945,and you’re well on course to take care of the rest.

            That’s why the Ultra-Orthodox declared war on you.

            Reply to Comment
          • alex

            As Archbishop Tutu said to David Frost recently it’s “in many ways worse” than apartheid.

            As for blood libel. Get a grip. He said ‘Israel’ not ‘Jews’, and belittling true blood libel with comments like that only give ammunition to real antisemites.

            In fact your comment “you and YOUR KIND” is far closer to that accusation.

            Still, you knew that. Didn’t you.

            Reply to Comment
        • Tzutzik

          “Israel follows a model of ethnic purity,a system Jews have had some very unpleasant experiences with 70 years ago.”

          If Israel would follow an ethnic purity system, we would not have over 1 million Arab citizens. They represent 20% of Israel’s population, and Jews are 80%.

          Yes, we want a majority Jewish state because we have had enough of having been a persecuted minority throughout history. But we never insisted on ethnic purity.

          As for your attempt to deny that we were a persecuted minority, Sheik Al Noor (Shakalnur) and Alex, what about;

          – The crusades?

          – The inquisition?

          – The mass expulsion from spain and Portugal?

          – The pogroms all over Europe and Arab lands?

          – The blood libels against Jews all over Europe and Arab lands?

          – The Dreyfus affair in france?

          – The Numerus Clausus?

          – The forced segregation of Jews in Ghettos?

          – Antisemitic publications such as the protocols of the elders of Zion and Mein Kampf?

          – The Holocaust?

          The list is endless. You guys, Alex and Sheik-Al-Noor can try to minimise it or deny it but it does not make the truth go away. Till very recently in history we were a persecuted minority in exile. We have had enough of it and that is why Israel exists today. Moreover, the fact that Israel exists today is also the reason why those who hate us temporarily refocussed their hatred against Israel and Zionists. They put their hands on their hearts and claim: “Hey, we don’t hate Jews. We just hate Zionists and Israel”. But they, you Sheik-Al-Noor and Alex DO hate Jews. And you hope that if you collectively manage to destroy our state, the Jews will once again be a helpless minority which you would endlessly be able to kick and blame for your troubles. Hey, some of you are so impatient that you can’t even wait till that happens. You already scapegoat Diaspora Jews by calling them Jewish lobby and Zionist agents.

          But just for the record. I am not accusing all Europeans of antisemitism today. Most Europeans have been horrified about the Nazi atrocities against Jews and now see what racism can lead to. Unfortunately there is still a sizable minority, like you Alex, who cannot stop hating. Sheik-Al-Noor, I did not include you in that comment because it is natural for you to hate us. You are part of the Arab people who have been making war on us for 100 years and yes, in that war we too made you suffer as you made us suffer.

          Reply to Comment
          • Y-Man

            What do all those instances of abuse (and genocide, in the case of the Holocaust) have in common? They all happened at least 70 years ago, i.e., long before you and me were even born. Get over your endless victimhood. That’s the thing about Israel: it’s both a mighty nuclear power and also a fragile little flower. Only one of those things is true.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “They all happened at least 70 years ago, i.e., long before you and me were even born.”

            Yes and Israel was created 65 years ago, right after the Holocaust and 2000 years of persecution before. The Holocaust was the last straw. Not just for us but even all other decent people. We and they saw that there is no other option but to create one state which can serve as a refuge for those of us who no longer want to be a helpless minority.

            “Get over your endless victimhood.”

            With people like you around? You gotta be joking. You are still full of hatred towards us. Your hatred oozes out of every letter in your post.

            And no, we won’t disassemble our state just because people like you tell us to. How about YOU get over your hatred?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            The Crusades,the Spanish,Roman and Portugese Inquisitions,and the Expulsion of Jews from Spain and Portugal was when Europe was dealing with a very dark time in Europe called “The Middle Ages”.

            A very dark time for anybody not part of the Catholic Church ,and finished about 1500 ACE(after the common error).

            From then on Jews were doing very well all over Europe and Arab countries,besides getting caught up in local conflicts that had nothing to do with Jews.

            Thankfully for people like you the persecution of Jews started seriously right after 1897 Zionism was created(400 years later).

            Most of European Jewry a century ago saw,and see, 1897 Zionism as the main reason for the persecutions of Jews in Europe since 1897.

            70 years after the Shoah Zionists are cornered,paranoid and willing to blow up themselves and the world.

            17 million Jews have turned their backs on Judaism since 1945,and what’s left of Judaism is being concentrated,by force in Israel and the US.

            US is on the verge of Martial Law and Fema camps,and Israel can be wiped out with one Trident.

            So in big lines it looks like Jews are set up for total extermination,after being spread all over the planet for 2000 years and doing relatively well,now being concentrated in two places hostile to Judaism.

            And that’s the plan ,and you are executing it,because your Banker Pharao loves power and uses and hates Jews.

            You’re just a slave ,a slave of your own lies.

            Your leaders are at the end of the line,and soon Jews will recognize that and take distance from you.

            You constantly teach hate and fear,I hope you excuse me for not teaching my children to hate and fear as their main objective in life.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Hey Sheik-Al-Noor

            I could fill out 100 posts to prove your lie that between 1500 and 1893 Jews had it ‘not too bad’ in Europe and Arab countries. But it ain’t worth the energy. Most serious adults know that you are lying through your teeth. But for the sake of the innocent youngsters whom you are trying to mislead, I’ll just present a short sample of what happened to Syrian Jews and what it triggered elsewhere in the Middle East during that period …

            http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

            “The Damascus affair occurred in 1840, when a French monk and his servant disappeared in Damascus. Immediately following, a charge of ritual murder was brought against a large number of Jews in the city including children who were tortured. The consuls of England, France and Germany as well as Ottoman authorities, Christians, Muslims and Jews all played a great role in this affair.[14] Following the Damascus affair, Pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa. Pogroms occurred in: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jerusalem (1847), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901–02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901–07), Port Said (1903, 1908), Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891), Istanbul (1870, 1874), Buyukdere (1864), Kuzguncuk (1866), Eyub (1868), Edirne (1872), Izmir (1872, 1874).[15] There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828.[12] There was another massacre in Barfurush in 1867.[12]”

            Plenty of more of the same on that link about what happened to Jews both in the Arab world and Europe during that time for those who want to inform themselves.

            As for you Sheik-Al-Noor (Or Shakhalnur as you prefer to call yourself), you are just a despicable liar. There I said it again.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            … here, just for the record, read more about how Jews were treated in Europe too between the Middle Ages and before modern Zionism. Read the country by country description. It isn’t a pretty story.

            http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe

            No I don’t mean you Sheik-Al-Noor. You don’t need to read it. You know this already but you don’t let facts interfere with your polemics and your propaganda. Oh well, one needs to be philosophical about people like you. You are just another animal in this world of ours which sometimes may be better described as a big zoo.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Wikiwhat?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Wikiwhat?”

            Look who is talking. I have yet to see a single link from you which backs up your assertions.

            Wiki at least cites sources and references. Their word is better than yours.

            Get a life!

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            “Thankfully for people like you the persecution of Jews started seriously right after 1897 Zionism”

            I have seen you make this assertion before, Shakhalnur. Let me amplify what you said: you said that Zionists deliberately created hatred against Jews in order to cause persecutions and to motivate Jews to flee to Palestine.

            I have asked you to provide links to credible sites (as opposed to propaganda sites) which verify your claims.

            To date, you have produced nothing to that effect. All you do is assert your claims and pretend that they are facts. But that’s not how things work in the real world. If people assert things, they need to prove their assertions.

            So, Shakhalnur, links please to back up your assertion. Put up or shut up!

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            True Torah Jews,amongst many others.

            Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann.

            “The Role of Zionism in the Holocaust”.

            In case you wonder who this Rabbi is,just ask any Ortodox Jew in Israel and abroad,they’ve read all he wrote as well as all the works of other Rabbi’s like Grand Rebbe Yoel Taytelbaum.

            They have over a million followers.

            I gave you this,and other Jewish sources several times.

            The fact you don’t accept these Jews as a source ,shows 1897 Bankerslave Zionists like you have nothing to look for in Judaism ,because you fail to understand what Judaism is about.

            In the future you’ll be a scar on Judaism ,that’s all,Judaism will overcome you.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            I found him on the Net. This is the type of thing that he says.

            “It is common knowledge that all the sages and saints in Europe at the time of Hitler’s rise declared that he was a messenger of divine wrath, sent to chasten the Jews because of the bitter apostasy of Zionism against the belief in the eventual messianic redemption.”

            I never heard of this guy but this is the 21st century. He sounds like a Netura Karta type. You do know that the Netura Karta sent reps to Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust denial conference?

            Is that the best you can do, Shakhalnur? I am left with shaking my head in disbelief.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Yup,and Grand Rebbe Teitelbaum called Zionism “the work of Satan”,”a sacrilege” and “blasphemy”.

            Any problem with that?

            These are religious Jews,not racist communist atheists like you.

            These Rabbi’s are Satmar,a group with around 1 million followers,not Netorei Karta.

            And now read all the article ,you coward.

            And after that all the articles on that site,dealing with Zionism helping Nazi’s kill Jews.

            You’ll find enough proof to keep you busy for a few weeks.

            Ignore these True Torah Jews at your own risk,because they declared war on 1897 Zionism ,since you want to force them to serve the IDF,or imprison them.

            They are growing fast,are respected by most Jews ,and are not ready to give up on Judaism ,like you did by replacing it by something that has nothing to do with Judaism.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            First of all I am not an atheist. Nor am I a communist.

            I believe in God. But the God in which I believe is a just God. Nor does he punish innocent children indiscriminately for the so called sins of some Jews.

            Nor does he unleash a Holocaust on an entire people because of the creation of Israel even before Israel was created.

            Talking about Satan, I think your tiny religious sect is closer to Satan than we are. Your sect is the enemy of Judaism Shakhalnur because it preaches hatered against their fellow Jews and it associates itself with Holocaust deniers and those who hate us.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            What makes you think I’m part of any religious group?

            Satmar’s view on religious issues are theirs.

            I’m talking about the facts they give on the Holocaust,facts that can not be told by non-Jews without being called an “Anti-Semite”.

            Facts that can not be told by Jews ,without being called”self-hating Jew”.

            You call these people “closer to Satan than us(sic)”.

            But the facts you refuse to adress,or even read.

            You are either a coward or a very ugly person.

            I had enough of both of you.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            “But the facts you refuse to adress,or even read.”

            Oh I read their allegations. Let’s pretend that they are credible (even though they come from a sect that associates with Holocaust deniers). Even then, they put their own spin on those facts instead of mentioning all the facts. Those were very difficult times and the Nazis were very determined to kill Jews.

            But let’s take it even a step further. Let’s pretend that there were some rogue Zionists who didn’t do what they should have done. Even then it is a bridge too far to say that all Zionists were guilty of the same thing.

            Only according to your stupid small sect and you, the equivalent of a Holocaust denier are Zionists our enemies. I mean Shakhalnur, if you can lie about the persecution of Jews in Europe and Arab lands, then you can lie about everything else too. I have had enough of you too.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            They were not “some rogue Zionists”,they were ,and are ,your leaders.

            Calling Satmar a “small stupid sect” shows you haven’t got a clue what Judaism is.

            And now you call me a Holocaust denier.

            You keep attacking the messenger, in my eyes you are a coward.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            I had another look at your site. It is entirely NOT credible. It makes contradictory claims.

            One minute it claims that Zionists and Nazis collaborated. The next minute it claims that Zionists declared a boycott against the Nazis. The latter claim of course is true. But the other one? What was it you said about Lala land?

            The rest of the claims on that site are even more incredible. It talks of negotiations between Nazis, the Brits and Zionists about the rescuing of Jews in 1942, in the Middle of the war. Come off it Shakhalnur. The Brits would not be a party to that. They did not trust Jews from Germany. Don’t you know what the Brits did to Jews who did manage to get out of Germany just before the war? They treated those Jews as enemy aliens. They interned them into camps for the entire duration of the war. They treated them the same way as non Jewish Germans and Italians who were enemy aliens to them. Even the ones who were naturalised citizens. You say the Brits would have been willing to accept thousands of more Jews in 1942? And allow the payment of ransom for them? In the middle of the war? Are you nuts? Or do you think we are nuts, to believe such stories? The truth is that Zionists had very little say in the matter. The truth is that Zionists were amongst the few who risked their own lives to rescue Jews and to fight the Nazis. Go and read up on Hannah Szenes who parachuted into hungary to fight the Nazis. And she lost her life in the process.

            Go and feed your lies to the ignorant, Shakhalnur. And yes, you are the equivalent of a Holocaust denier. On this very thread you denied the persecution of Jews in Europe and in Arab lands between 1500 and 1893 Zionism as you call it.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            Here Shakhalnur. Look at this video:

            http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q8cgBf4DiZ8

            Look at how the members of your sect whom you put forward fawn over that Holocaust denier, Ahmedinejad.

            Give me one, just one reason why anyone should believe what they say about Israel and Zionists? They are haters like you.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            It really makes me sick to the stomach just watching that video. They all but kiss Ahmedinejad’s hand and the bowing before him is just nauseating!

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            My answer to your post was deleted by moderator,and I agree with that.

            And I apologize to Samuel,in case you read it before moderation.

            If your job is to tick me off,you’re succeeding,and that’s my bad..

            Therefore,nuff said between us.

            Reply to Comment
          • alex

            Please quote where I attempted to deny Jews were a persecuted minority.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Please quote where I attempted to deny Jews were a persecuted minority.”

            Alex, you sided with Shakhalnur when you challenged my response to him. So I assumed that you agree with his claims.

            But have you read his latest posts? Shakhalnur is denying that there was significant persecution of Jews in Europe and the Arab world since the end of the Middle Ages and before 1893. I was already aware of that assertion of his from past exchanges with him. You backed him up so I included you in my response. But if you don’t agree with him, I am prepared to withdraw my accusation against you, with apologies. If on the other hand you do agree with him then you answered your own question.

            Reply to Comment
          • alex

            I replied to YOUR post. Just because the system puts my post next to someone else’s is irrelevant. Your accusation is libellous. Please withdraw it forthwith.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “I replied to YOUR post. Just because the system puts my post next to someone else’s is irrelevant. Your accusation is libellous. Please withdraw it forthwith.”

            Fine Alex, then since you say my accusation against you is libellous, you obviously disagree with Shakhalnur about his denial of the fact that Jews were a persecuted minority in Arab lands and in Europe between the Middle Ages and the late 1800s too.

            On that basis I withdraw my accusation against you and I apologise to you unreservedly.

            Reply to Comment
      • Kate

        Kenneth Meshoe is a rabidly antiGay fundamentalist, but hey if you want him in your court be my guest

        Reply to Comment
          • Danny

            Hahaha! This from none other than Alan M. Dershowitz – that paragon of morality. The man who literally is a devil’s advocate.

            Bishop Tutu is a world-respected figure. That he is hated in Israel – like other world-renowned figures, the latest one being Stephen Hawking – is a badge of honor for him.

            Reply to Comment
          • Rab

            I can tell you didn’t read the article.

            Reply to Comment
        • Samuel

          “Kenneth Meshoe is a rabidly antiGay fundamentalist, but hey if you want him in your court be my guest”

          Fine Kate have it your way. Let’s use whether being antiGay is a measure of someone’s humanity. In that case the following statistics should be of great interest to you.

          Percentage of population who say homosexuality “should be accepted by society” (for Israel and various Islamic countries):

          “Israel – 40 percent.
          Lebanon – 18 percent.
          Turkey – 9 percent.
          Palestinian territories – 4 percent.
          Egypt – 3 percent.
          Jordan – 3 percent.
          Indonesia – 3 percent.
          Pakistan – 2 percent.
          Tunisia – 2 percent.
          Nigeria – 1 percent.”

          So, Kate, you should be firmly in Israel’s corner, not backing the Arabs. But you are not. Why? Because you don’t REALLY care about gays. You just want to use them to discredit Kenneth Meshoe.

          Reply to Comment
          • Philos

            This is the kind of thing that makes genuine LGBTQ activists pretty angry. It’s called “pinkwashing.”

            By the way, by European, North and South American, Australian & New Zealand, Chinese and South-East Asian standards – 40% is dreadfully low and would be considered indicative of a homophobic society. So next time you make up some numbers or borrow numbers made up by someone else at least try to make them illustrate your point. As Goebelles is alleged to have said, “I don’t trust statistics unless I made them up myself.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            “This is the kind of thing that makes genuine LGBTQ activists pretty angry. It’s called “pinkwashing.”

            Pinkwashing Philos? Don’t complain to me about it. Complain to your friend Kate. She is the one who brought Gays into the discussion. Her one sided diatribe just begged my response. And you too if you care about gays, shouldn’t ignore the lot of gays in Arab countries and Palestine. Their 4% of tolerance is still worse than Israel’s 40%. But hey, that isn’t fashionable for you guys is it Philos? Only Israel bashing is fashionable.

            As for your complaint about “Racist Israel”, you confuse racism with racists. Again, look up the world index of racism by countries and sure enough you will find that there ARE racists in Israel. Some are Jewish racists someare Arab racists but is all of Israel racist? Is the country racist? Of course not. And yet again if you compare racism in Israel to racism in other countries, you will find that Arab countries appear higher on the scale of racism than Israel. But you people don’t care about that Philos. You only care to exaggerate the problems with Israel because you are a politicised biased lot who hate Israel.

            So you see Philos? That’s why decent people should not care about what makes you lot angry.

            Reply to Comment
          • Philos

            This is a pretty hard concept for an Israel firster from the USA to understand but: it is possible to care about many things at once and keep them separate in discussions.

            This is a discussion about apartheid. You tried to pink wash. I care about the plight of lgbtq people in the Middle East and ill comment about it in an appropriate thread. Now back under the bridge with you fell and fey troll!

            Reply to Comment
          • Rab

            “Pinkwashing” is when anti-Israel activists ignore the horrendous maltreatment of queers in Arab and Muslim societies and focus on Israel’s supposed ills instead.

            They do this, typically, by turning the clear evidence of Israel’s open society for queers into a point of criticism using the supposed Palestinian plight as their deflection rhetoric.

            Reply to Comment
    2. Philos

      Well, behause the Mainstream Media reflects the institutional racial biases of the governing system. Specifically, in this case blacks only have voice in expressing their individual experiences of apartheid and feelings. They have no voice to express wider thoughts on apartheid in other contexts. A classic example of this is the issue of the slave trade in the UK. Black descendants may express their feelings about it as individuals but to go beyond and ask about the role of slavery in creating modern Britain is shut down completely.

      “Don’t you know we abolished slavery?
      Besides you can’t hold us responsible for what happened hundreds of years ago.”

      The same is true here. The MSM needs white people, American Jews and Israelis to decide what is and isn’t apartheid in the Israeli case. In a way black South Africans have been mercifully spared the kind of dismissive and insensitive arrogance of the MSM others suffered when Britain covered itself in glory over the bicentenary of the abolition of slavery.

      The other point, I guess, is Israelis aren’t about to take lessons from kushim… And then explain that kushi isn’t derogatory at all because it comes from the bible, and there was this Ethiopian guy in the army and everybody called him a kushi and he didn’t mind….

      Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        “So next time you make up some numbers or borrow numbers made up by someone else”

        Well, if the numbers were made up, it certainly wasn’t made up by me. Here go to this site and check for yourself, Philos:

        http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/global-acceptance-of-homosexuality/

        And if they were pro Israelis who cooked the numbers then why didn’t they go the whole hog and present Israel’s acceptance of gays in the same figure as the Anglo Saxon countries which are way more tolerant?

        And back to your allegation that Israelis are racists. You know what, Philos? It is a sign of a racist to generalize from individual examples of misdeeds and say that a whole population is guilty of the same misdeed. By that standard, you are a racist Philos.

        Normal people don’t even call all Germans as racists even though horrific acts of racism were perpetrated by many of them and in their name a bare 70 years ago. But somehow, Philos you take the liberty to say or imply that all of Israel is racist. That is a sure sign that you are a racist.

        Reply to Comment
        • shachalnur

          Of course the numbers are cooked.

          Acceptance of gays in Israel is much higher than 40%,but it wouldn’t add to the hate of Jews these cooked numbers are causing.

          You don’t seem to understand that your propagandatools and the platform are only made available to you,so you can create hate towards Jews .

          Just like 1897 Zionism did before WW2.

          Then the aim was to destroy Europe’s Jewish communities and force them to Israel,this time the aim is to generate hate towards all Jews and finish them off for real.

          Thankfully 17 million Jews have recognized this long ago ,and took distance from Zionist organized Judaism since 1897.

          They’ll become visible again ,after the 1897 Zionist nightmare is over,and to be a Jew is a cause for pride again,and not for shame..

          And Ultra-Orthodox Judaism(about 2 million of them) have declared war on you.

          Before the Shoah the main qualification by Jews in Europe of 1897 Zionism was as follows:

          “Tochniet le’hashmadat ha’am ha’ Yehudi”.
          (Program for the extermination of the Jewish People)

          17 million Jews that became invisible and 2 million Ultra-Orthodox Jews are right,a few million ill-informed Askenazi Bankerslaves are wrong.

          Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            Where did you get this mysterious 17 million Jews from Shakhalnur? And how do you know they deserted Judaism? And if they did, then how do you know why they deserted?

            Start with the 17 million first then answer the rest of my questions by citing reliable sources and offering links to sites that back up your fantastic claims.

            Otherwise, you can’t blame us for thinking that you are pulling your claims out of your own back side? Phew how uncouth of you.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            sources for Zionist behaviour in WW2,futher up the commentboard.

            17 million missing Jews ,I explained many times before ,and I will do it again ,after I finished playing cricket with my kids in the park,schoolvacations ,you know.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            “17 million missing Jews ,I explained many times”

            And your explanations were thoroughly rebutted. That is why you are so shy to present your explanations for those who have not seen your silly explanations before.

            Never mind, I gave you a chance to make a fool of yourself again but having learnt your lesson, you will now just stick to making assertions. Those who already hate Israel and Zionists will believe you. The rest of us know where you pull your claims from. A stinky place which is in the rear of your body.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            kfotzli be zigzag.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            my kids go before your venom.

            1945 :13,5 million Jews world wide.
            assimilation rates 1940:4 %

            Based on Jewish birthrates since 1945 there should be around 32 million Jews alive now,conservatively.

            2013: 13,5 million Jews world wide.
            Assimilation rates US/Europe 2012: 60 %

            So,more than 17 million Jews disappeared?

            Where are they?
            They’re everywhere ,but they will avoid people like you,and will surely not give garbage like you any explanation.
            You’re the cause they turned their backs on organized Judaism.

            You claim this was “thoroughly rebutted”.
            Go ahead,I must have missed it.

            Consider this the last time I’ll waste time on your crap,it’s all too transparant,and my patience with venomous reptiles like you is finished.

            You cause nausea.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            I won’t quibble about the exact number of Jews who left Judaism. The fact is that there is assimilation of Jews in the diaspora. Why? Because of secularism. Secularism has been a major trend not just amongst Jews but amongst all people.

            What has preserved Judaism in the diaspora? Religion of course. Without it, Jews intermarry and are eventually lost to Judaism through assimilation.

            In Israel however it works the other way. Non Jews who marry Jews assimilate to us. They join our people.

            So what is the lesson to be learnt here for those who want Judaism to survive? Come to Israel. Otherwise, with the trend towards secularism, Judaism will continue to shrink because without a sense of belonging people blend into their surroundings, people like to belong.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            “In Israel ,non-Jews that marry Jews assimilate and join our(sic)people”.

            Where? In what part of Lala-Land?

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            “Where? In what part of Lala-Land?”

            Yes, I am glad you mentioned Lala land. It is a place you are intimately familiar with, Shakhalnur.

            As for intermarriage in Israel. It does happen. It is not wide spread but yes Israeli Jews and non Jews do marry each other.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            “1945 :13,5 million Jews world wide.”

            More like 9 million. But thanks for trying to inflate our figures for your own purpose.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            ¿qué?

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            qué?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Soy yo,hablando con tu mismo.

            Reply to Comment
        • Daniel Rocha

          I really do not believe those numbers. At least where I live, Brazil, Rio de Janeiro, people, even with the million or so in gay parades, people do not really tolerate gays to the point of 60%, the same of US. We are way worse than that, for sure.

          Maybe to the South Region, where there is a higher standard of education and less christian fundamentalism influence. But they are small part of the population.

          Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            Nevertheless, Israelis are much more broad minded than many people would like to depict them. Certainly much more broadminded than the much adulated Palestinians (on this site). Have you heard of the trans gender performer, Danah International who represented Israel at the Eurovision contest several times? A very talented lady.

            http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_International

            “Dana International has been credited with being one of the world’s best known trans women. In 2005, a poll by the Israeli news website Ynet to list those perceived as the 200 Greatest Israelis saw Dana voted the 47th-greatest Israeli of all time.[2]”

            I don’t think the Palestinians would have ever chosen someone like her to represent them in anything. Do you?

            Reply to Comment
        • Philos

          סאמיואל אי טינק זאט איי אם מור קוואליפייד זאן יו טו טאלק אבוט ישראלי ראיזיסים זאן יו אר. דו יו אנדרסטאנד מיי?

          😉

          Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Don’t think he does.

            Did you notice the latest exchange between Samuel and himself?

            His Capisce-cells have ceased to exist.

            Just raw hate left,and blind fear.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            Yes, I understand you. You fool!

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            And you know all about racism Philos. You proved it time and time again with various posts.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            And Shakalnur, you suffer from a form of holocaust denial. Only you deny persecutions of Jews at a different time in history. You can make fun of it but you can’t make it go away. People know who you are. And what you stand for. You stand for hatred of Jews. I agree with Tzutzik. I don’t think you are even Jewish. I agree with him, you are probably an Arab propagandist. A very clumsy one at that.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Enemies ,enemies ,everywhere enemies.

            In your head ,and even in your soup.

            What a sad raison d’etre.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            So says a man who said in the past that he wants to see Israel dismantled and Jews who don’t comply with Arab dictates “returned” to Europe.

            One does not have to look far to find enemies with people like him around.

            Reply to Comment
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