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WATCH: Palestinian child kicked by Border Police in Hebron

B’Tselem just released disturbing footage of a Border Police officer kicking a Palestinian child while another officer holds him on the streets of occupied Hebron.  The video was shot last Friday June 29 by a B’Tselem activist, from the window of his house, adjacent to the Tomb of the Patriarchs. According to B’Tselem, the person started shooting the video upon noticing a border police officer hiding behind the wall.

The name of the child is Abed a-Rahman and he is only 9 years old. You can see the policeman at the start of the video appear, then disappear, and then reappear at about 1:22 when he runs to grab the child and says: “Why are you causing trouble?” As the policeman holds the crying boy, another policeman comes and kicks him. The child is then released and runs away and the policemen disperse. B’Tselem is filing a complaint against the two men with the Police Investigation Department.

 

 

UPDATE: Now that the video has been widely circulated and made it into mainstream Israel media, Border Police has responded with an official statement:

 

The Border Police denounces the policemen’s behavior, which contrasts the values of the force. It is important to note that this is a rare incident which does not represent the actions of the Border Police in Israel. The Border Police commander instructed on setting up a team to investigate the incident immediately and its conclusions are due in the coming days.

I will follow the story and see if in fact the Border Police provides “conclusions.”

Related:
Report by British jurists reminds of the horrors of Israeli child detention

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    COMMENTS

    1. Palestinian

      The most moral army ….

      Reply to Comment
    2. Richard SM

      Another terrorist plot foiled by the brave and fearless Israeli forces.

      Reply to Comment
    3. noam

      yeah, and i guess some people still think shovrim shtika are making stuff up… holy shit.

      Reply to Comment
    4. Rebecca

      Shocking and wrong, no question. On the other hand, I’ve seen Palestinian parents slap their kids with about as much force as that border policement when they get out of line. And do worse to their daughters when they try to assert some independence. For that matter, I’ve seen American parents hit their kids. In public.

      Reply to Comment
    5. Honey

      @Rebecca..You’re saying it’s OK because others do it, or maybe you’re saying it’s not OK for anyone to abuse a child especially a person in uniform? Be more specific?

      Reply to Comment
    6. max

      I think that the kick (not much conviction in its application, I’d say) should result in a disciplinary action, and that referring to it as shocking is naive – Rebecca, as you write, so why the shock? Are policemen typically kinder to kids in such situations?
      .
      Talking about the situation: does anyone believe this crap about “the person started shooting the video upon noticing a border police officer hiding behind the wall”?
      The narrow angle shooting starting _before_ the policeman places himself, seems to indicate a careful staging of the scene: or did the policeman just know that a peaceful 9-years old will pass by and decided to hold him for private soft kicking?

      Reply to Comment
    7. Maria Soldead Calef

      And Jewish people talking about their Holocaust? What about Palestinians?

      Reply to Comment
    8. Save your tired twaddle max, Israeli atrocities are well documented. This is just another

      Reply to Comment
    9. Dan

      If a little kick is the worst documented “atrocity” you can get then Israel is doing just fine for now. Slow news day (year?) I guess.

      And lol at Maria for comparing a small kick to the Holocaust, but I guess that this is exactly the kind of reaction B’Tselem are looking for.

      Reply to Comment
    10. Jack

      Just look at Max how he tries to glorify and downplay the israeli crimes as he always do.

      One soldier holding a kid for obvously no reason, then another one coming up from behind suckerpunch him with a kick.

      Of course he wont reply to us but we know our message is getting through to him.

      Reply to Comment
    11. Kolumn9

      That’s it? The kid probably threw a stone or two at the police in the past so they caught him, kicked him lightly and then let him run back home to cry to his mother. BFD.

      Reply to Comment
    12. Laura

      I am very concerned about what happens in the Territories. I just did a tour with Breaking the Silence and read the whole book about soldiers testimonies, where many abuses are testified and certainly true. That said, this specific video does not prove anything, since the angle is so narrow, and we have no idea what happened before. I also thought it was staged to prove some point, but I would be very happy to be wrong. I just cannot stand photos and videos being manipulated!

      Reply to Comment
    13. “does anyone believe this crap about the person started shooting the video upon noticing a border police officer hiding behind the wall’?”
      .
      Knowing Hebron, Max, yes. Border policemen and soldiers are stationed at checkpoints and roadblocks (the city is peppered with them), in observation towers, or on local roofs. When they move around the streets, they go in groups. It is unusual to see just one or two policemen hovering about like that, and if I had been the B’tselem worker, I would have been suspicious too – especially as magavnikim don’t have a reputation for their great kindness and sociability.
      .
      I don’t know whether the policeman was expecting a ‘peaceful nine-year-old’. Some soldiers make quite a hobby of pouncing on kids out of sheer boredom, so perhaps any child would have done, nine years old or not, ‘peaceful’ or not. (And the insinuation that maybe the little boy was somehow responsible for being knocked over and kicked by two armed men is reprehensible – no child should be treated like that by an adult, and I hope you haven’t come to see child abuse as such an unremarkable thing that you’ve lost sight of that.) There is nothing special about this particular incident except the fact that it was caught on camera, and that is what makes it disturbing – to realise exactly how long the army’s shadow is in Hebron, and what it’s like to be a kid growing up under it. The uncertainty they feel is pretty horrible.
      .
      “And lol at Maria for comparing a small kick to the Holocaust, but I guess that this is exactly the kind of reaction B’Tselem are looking for.”
      .
      B’tselem are interested in stopping child abuse in occupied Hebron. It’s nothing like the Holocaust. That’s not going to be much comfort to the children involved.

      Reply to Comment
    14. max

      @Vicky – as I wrote, I think that the kicking policeman should be disciplined. I also think that it’s good to have all these clips available for public viewing.
      .
      Now let’s review the claims around this footage.
      “According to B’Tselem, the person started shooting the video upon noticing a border police officer hiding behind the wall” – that’s obvious nonsense, and I wonder whether the B’Tselem spokesperson saw the clip…
      Further, as the policeman who caught the kid said “Why are you causing trouble?”, not knowing he was filmed, I presume – I’m convinced – there’s something we didn’t see. Note also the boys raised left hand when he comes out – obviously just a speculation…
      Finally, you sound as if you claim that these 2 policemen were walking on their own – dangerous, I understand from you – just for the kick of it… sorry, I don’t buy this one. Occupation has its toll on people’s moral judgement, but the scene simply doesn’t lend itself to this scenario.
      So no, the policeman didn’t expect an angel boy: he knew the boy will come again and wanted to warn him against this type of games; the second policeman’s kick was a wrong addition.
      .
      The tragedy isn’t the kick. The tragedy is that small boys, presumably despite their parents’ advice, have become participants in the conflict. They can’t and shouldn’t be blamed.
      .
      The photographer, however, preferred to have the boy cry instead of warning him, knowing, of course, that the punishment will be light and the exposure large.
      It’s all showbiz, c’est tout du cinéma

      Reply to Comment
    15. I was wondering who would be the first commenter to claim that the footage was staged, the border police didn’t really do anything that bad, who knows what the kid did to provoke them into kicking him and making him burst into hysterical tears. Or who would be the first person to wonder why B’tselem was bothering us with these minor incidents when much worse things were going on in Syria.

      So predictable. So depressing.

      People: Two grown, armed men in uniform attacked, beat and terrorized a 9 year-old boy. If you don’t have the moral courage to condemn this indefensible act, at least have the decency to stay silent.

      Reply to Comment
    16. Israel seems to have a corrupting influence on Jews, causing them to lose their moral bearings.

      Reply to Comment
    17. Susan Marie

      I do not know why anyone is debating this. One, Palestine is occupied. Two, it is always wrong to hurt a child.

      Reply to Comment
    18. max

      @Lisa, is it on purpose that you ignore both the condemnation of the act and the obvious staging? Moral bearings don’t supersede reality

      Reply to Comment
    19. Mitchell Cohen

      “Israel seems to have a corrupting influence on Jews, causing them to lose their moral bearings.” [End of Yossi Gurwitz]

      YG, interesting statement coming from you considering that you spend no small amount of your time writing about how “evil, primitive, and chauvinistic” Judaism is.

      That being said this incident (and others like it) should CERTAINLY be investigated and the border policemen brought to justice.

      Reply to Comment
    20. shaun biddulph

      This is not real. This is two pieces of film spliced together. As much as i support the Palastinian cause and abhore the actions of Israel, this is nothing more than a propaganda film. The Palastinians (if it realy was them who made it and not some Zionist intent on drumming up Palastinian hatred) don’t need this pathetic attempt of a film, od Israeli violence towardss palestinians.

      Reply to Comment
    21. Handala

      @Max:
      I second Talknic’s comment – “Save your tired twaddle max, Israeli atrocities are well documented. This is just another”

      Who cares if it was staged or not?! It happens all the time…somebody decided to stage and document it!

      Reply to Comment
    22. Max, you place great faith in the border police. A border policeman asks a child, “Why are you causing trouble?” and you take it on faith that the child actually was causing trouble? This is the same city where it is possible for soldiers to stop you on the basis that they ‘don’t like how you look’. (This happened to a teenager at Machsom 56 quite recently, and those were the exact words the soldier gave him.) Look at a soldier in a way he doesn’t like, and he could accuse you of ‘insulting a public servant’, a catchall charge that is used to cover an extraordinary variety of things. It’s more than possible that this little boy is a ‘troublemaker’ by the Magav’s definition of the word, but that is not a reasonable definition.
      .
      “So no, the policeman didn’t expect an angel boy: he knew the boy will come again and wanted to warn him against this type of games; the second policeman’s kick was a wrong addition.”
      .
      I see. Kicking the child was wrong, but an armed man lurking round the corner and knocking him to the ground is not. I’m a lot more concerned by the many ‘games’ of the IDF and Magav that don’t get caught on camera, such as their habit of playing with the container checkpoint when there are people stuck inside, the occasions when they have lobbed sound bombs into the souq, the times when they have gone up to Arroub camp and fired tear gas at the boys’ school during school hours, and a whole host of other things. You may find it difficult to believe that they do these things just for kicks, but Hebron is a pretty unbelievable place. Boredom is also a big complaint of soldiers there, many of whom are fresh out of high school. Boredom, immaturity, a massive power trip and the knowledge that you can get away with a lot are not a good combination. Occasionally I am tempted to establish a special fund to buy them some water pistols or pogo sticks so that they can amuse themselves in happier ways.
      .
      As for the child’s left arm being raised, he could have been scratching his head or picking his nose. This is hardly good evidence that the video was staged. If this is ‘showbiz’, it’s a very mundane ordinary show, given the frequency of such incidents. What’s rare is that such an incident was captured on camera, due to the IDF’s penchant for confiscating cameras and wiping them. The person with the camera will have known this. As a B’tselem activist, s/he will not be a stranger to documenting abuses, and will have understood the importance of recording what went on.

      Reply to Comment
    23. Vadim

      To all the people that post nonsense about how this is the most vile thing on earth.

      Ask yourselves this – would this even be an item if it had taken place anywhere else in the world? In your country for instance? Or in Syria? Or somewhere else.

      Would you waste your time to view this, think how this is just like the holocaust and post a comment condemning not just the person but the whole country? Or say that it may be staged but it makes no difference because this is the truth anyway?

      I think not.

      And that is why I think you’re hypocrites. You don’t have to agree publicly, but at least don’t lie to yourselves.

      Reply to Comment
    24. Maor

      @MARIA SOLDEAD CALEF – Thank you for opening my eyes. Until today I was able to tolerate it when Jews spoke about their holocaust, crying endlessly about the genocide of millions of their people and the total cleansing of hundreds of communities in Europe. All this has changed today – there’s a video of an Israeli policemen kicking a Palestinian child and then walks away. From now on, I will not tolerate any mentioning of the Jewish holocaust! My fellow Jews, don’t talk about the holocaust! Dismantle Yad Vashem and all the memorials, and instead put a big sign with a link to the context-less youtube video of a Palestinian child getting a silly kick from a policeman. The “Never again” crap can stay.

      Just a question – has this website ever reported on something bad that Palestinians did or say to Jews, or something bad that Palestinians did or say to other Palestinians?

      Reply to Comment
    25. max

      @Vickie –

      A boy throws stones, get caught and warned. Commendable. The boy gets a kick. Wrong.
      A neighbor / family members anticipates the scenario and instead of warning the boy to stop the game films the event and then lies about the staging. Wrong.
      .
      “Holocaust”
      “Who cares if it was staged or not?! It happens all the time”
      .
      Don’t you see how such stupid fabrications weaken your message about the (inherent) evil of occupation?
      .
      Since the French rulings in the slander cases around ‘Al Dura’ I’m very careful with such clips, regardless of whether ‘such things’ happen or not.

      Reply to Comment
    26. Mikesailor

      The denial of reality by Max and Maor would be comical if it weren’t divorced from reality. Max tries that old discredited Israeli line that somehow this event was ‘staged’. I suppose the soldiers were part of the ‘staging’? As to ‘justice, what ‘justice do you expect from the Zionist establishment for brutality if the victims are Palestinian? I wouldn’t hold my breath. If killing the innocent results in impunity, why would mere brutality or cruelty be treated any differently?
      The pathetic line of the apologists should be wearing thin even for them. First off, they argue to look at Syria, as if that has anything to do with the video at hand. Then they argue that cruelty is permissible because the child ‘must have been doing something’ else that soldier would not have knocked him to the ground and held him to be kicked. On what evidence do they make this excuse? None. Finally, the stupid argument about ‘staging’. Grasping at straws to evade responsibility and deny reality. Pathetic. I have a qustion for K-9, Max, Maor, Shaun B. and Vadim: Is there any brutal activity performed by the IDF or Border Police against Palestinians which you will not try to either discredit or excuse?

      Reply to Comment
    27. Maor

      Mikesailor – First, I don’t see how “the denial of reality is divorced from reality” – this is a circular argument that doesn’t make much sense. Second, I don’t know who “they” in the group of people you refer too are exactly. My name is there, but I don’t remember writing about any of the things you mentioned (Syria, staged and such…). The inability to see the pluralization/variability of beliefs and attitudes among humans, or the tendency to see your outgroup as a unified unit, is a form of denial of reality that is most definitely also divorced from reality.

      I didn’t discredit or excused – I was simply bringing up the fact that this kicking without injury by a policeman who let the child go after the “punishment” is something that makes that policeman WORSE THAN HITLER in my opinion – and must lead the Jewish people to stop talking about their holocaust, as Maria suggested. It’s important that at this stage, the narrative of the holocaust the Jews are pumping everywhere is replaced with the right discussion on the Palestinians.

      Now, if you already brought it up the video doesn’t allow us to judge whether the boy did “something” to the policeman or not, since it isolates a part of an incident. What I can assume is, as someone who has been in Hebron a few times and as someone who can think logically sometimes, is that there are some Palestinian children who are/were not kicked in the legs by this or other policemen and soldiers. That is, it is not that “divorced from reality” to suspect that the incident was more than just a bored/evil policeman who decided to do something “Zionist” for the sake of the boredom/evilness that must accompany Zionist actions.
      Another thing I also found important to bring us is that we also know that there are Palestinian of all kinds of positions that hurt other Palestinians or Jews, say things that should be considered as racist, do something that should be considered as bad – but after going through more than 20 pages backwards on this website, I could not find a SINGLE mentioning of any such a thing. So the conclusion is that this website is about reporting bad things that Jews do to Palestinians and non-Jews, or good things that the Palestinians do to Jews or themselves. This seems to me something that goes way beyond bias – it’s pure bigotry.

      Reply to Comment
    28. Maybe if you could look at it as a symptom, not as an atrocity, it would make more sense.

      Reply to Comment
    29. Luitsz, above: “Maybe if you could look at it as a symptom, not as an atrocity, it would make more sense.”
      .
      Yes, I think so too.
      .
      Maor, above: “this kicking without injury by a policeman who let the child go after the “punishment” is something that makes that policeman WORSE THAN HITLER”
      .
      Max, above, is giving to this post a lot more than Maor, above. All occupations will generate what the film reveals unless policed very well; I suspect it didn’t happen too often in NATO occupied Bosnia. Occupations do something to both occupied and occupier. Comments such as Maor’s simply dissolve everything into angry absurdities, which is why I tend to stay away from posts like this.

      Reply to Comment
    30. Maor

      Gred, I was responding to Maria.

      Of course this is a symptom of a situation in which soldiers and policemen are doing soldiering and policing amid a complex violent intractable conflict between two groups who live in the same city. This is an unbearable situation for them and without losing their temper and doing some crimes here and there they probably wouldn’t be human (though I wish that when there are crimes, they are only what we see in this example).

      But, and this must be said, the security presence of Israel in Hebron is necessary, since there are Jews living there among hostile non-Jews who would most definitely massacre them if they are unprotected. True, these are not the nicest Jews to protect, but I don’t choose my Jews, otherwise I would also choose my Palestinians. Jews lived in Hebron for thousands of years with one small break between 1929 (remember this massacre?) and 1967, and Jews are entitled to live there. I wouldn’t stand a situation in which there are no Jews in Hebron.

      Of course, this policing must not be a long term solution to our problems there and we should aspire to get rid of it as soon as possible. It is a necessary mean within what you call the occupation (which was at its time the most moral way to deal with a neighboring community whose goal is to genocide your peoeple), which should also not be a long-term thing. For this to happen, the threat on Jews in Hebron should be removed, and this can happen only in an inclusive agreement that will resolve the conflict. Even in this case, I would not let the Jews of Hebron get rid of its security so easily, because we all know, even if we don’t always want to admit, that they will never ever be completely safe in this city, unless they subordinate themselves in a serious manner.

      Reply to Comment
    31. Handala

      @Max:
      Throwing a rock at an occupying officer is not WRONG nor illegal in any way…that’s where you need a paradigm shift!
      Also (a friendly piece of advice): if you are going to take a position based on a legal case, you better know the case well first before bringing it up.
      Finally, getting my name purposely wrong and slandering it is very childish and takes away from the little credibility you have.

      Reply to Comment
    32. Maor

      Handala, sorry for interfering, but if throwing a rock at an officer is acceptable, it is also acceptable for the officer to defend him/herself. I know that for some people this is only true if the officer is not Israeli, but in any case we won’t get too much of any acceptance of mutual violence, that is only a symptom of a conflict that needs to be resolved and not to end in a military victory of one side. And if a victory is what you wish for (sometimes coded with “justice” in the anti-Zionist discourse), be sure that the strong side is more capable of achieving it.

      Reply to Comment
    33. max

      @Handala,
      1. throwing a rock is legal… what about shooting?
      2. legal case – can you please be a bit more verbose? Your friendly piece of advice makes no sense
      3. Where did I ever use your name?
      If you want a discussion you’d better start providing more than exclamations

      Reply to Comment
    34. Maor, the occupation is about power. Those border policemen wield a frightening amount of control over that little boy in the video (and over every other Palestinian child in the OPT, who are all subject to martial law, which means that they don’t enjoy the rights to protection that children have under civilian law). Of course there are Palestinians who hurt other Palestinians, and Palestinians who hurt Jews, but they don’t exercise absolute suffocating control over the people they hurt, and that is the difference. This is why it’s wrong to suggest that small boys who throw stones are somehow equal parties in a conflict with an occupying army that is armed to the teeth and regimenting every aspect of their lives.
      .
      As for this particular boy’s supposed violence, there is no evidence that he threw so much as a peanut M&M at the magavnik. The people here who are reluctant to trust B’tselem video footage don’t apply the same caution to telepathy. We have Max condemning a child’s hypothetical stone-throwing…and then describing as ‘commendable’ the action of an armed man who seized the child, sent him flying to the ground, and then dragged him along the floor. That’s not a consistent ethic on violence. Unfortunately this black-is-white, up-is-down thinking is all too common in Hebron, and these are the results.

      Reply to Comment
    35. Maor

      VIcky, Israel is the strong side in this asymmetrical conflict, but that doesn’t mean that Israel cannot defend its people just because its enemy is weaker. Its enemy is not a little boy (although we all know of cases where underage boys were sent to blow themselves up in Israeli buses) – but rocket launchers, suicide bombers, snipers, and many militants who killed thousands of Israelis and would have killed dozens of other thousands if Israel did not use protective measures.
      The Palestinian civilians indeed suffer more from the conflict – because Israel is stronger and defends itself more effectively than those who seek to attack its people are doing their job. Thank god.

      I cannot say anything about the background or context of this particular incident since we only have a small segment of it on a video, without other details on what exactly happened there. I would of course agree that this is not a behavior that should be accepted from a soldier or policemen. However, such incidents are not a reason to abandon any protection from Jewish inhabitants of Hebron. I have the feeling that Shalhevet Pas and other countless victims would disagree with the “lack of suffocating control” their killers had over their lives.

      Reply to Comment
    36. max

      @Vicky – you’re getting carried away with your description of the event, presumably overlaying it with other brutalities you’ve seen.
      I don’t use telepathy, I use caution. I know for sure – as you do – that the B’Tselem spokesperson lied; I know – as you do – that both the policeman and the camera-person knew the boy will come out; I see a raised hand, possibly holding a stone – it’s the only speculative part in my reasoning, and the boy wasn’t picking his nose; I hear the policeman admonishing the boy, and not to excuse his act.
      .
      In short: I don’t superimpose other events on top of this one – you do. that’s the difference.

      Reply to Comment
    37. max

      in http://www.alfajertv.com/news/41697.html you can read the boy’s story, explaining the context of the event: I was playing with my brothers when suddenly one of the soldiers…

      Reply to Comment
    38. Confiscating farmland (and with it people’s livelihood), destroying rainwater cisterns, arresting five-year-olds in the streets of Silwan, waking up households arbitrarily in the middle of the night, denying passage to school…none of the one thousand and one things that make up the fabric of daily life under military occupation can be accounted for by legitimate security needs. If anything, these policies put Israeli civilians at greater risk because of the humiliation that they instil in the local population. There is a two-tier system of living at work in Hebron, with Palestinian residents being subjected to all manner of irrational restrictions that seriously affect their daily lives, all so that settlers may have the privilege of living in the Old City. Safety and equality go together, and without the latter no one can expect the former. Israeli civilian deaths don’t mean that Palestinians hold power over Israeli society as a whole, not like this. There is no closed military zone in Ramat Gan tonight, and unlike in Silwan, there has never been a spate of child arrests in Nahalot.
      .
      One way to achieve security would be to respect the vulnerability of children and to make their welfare the highest priority. Martial law makes this impossible, as unlike civil law it draws no distinction between child and adult, and allows soldiers to detain children without even having to give a reason. How can it surprise anyone that a fundamentally abusive system is used to abuse? It also teaches people to view Palestinian children not as children, but as violent criminals in miniature and guilty until proven innocent – even though the vast majority of these children will attain adulthood without ever having handled a gun. Unfortunately the same can’t be said for their Israeli peers. There can’t be security so long as this systematic degradation is ongoing. All children need to be accorded the rights of children, which means an end to military law in the OPT.
      .
      I hope the next time you visit Hebron you will perhaps meet some of these kids – you’re more likely to find them wanting to play football than thirsting for your blood.

      Reply to Comment
    39. Maor

      Vicky, after a few phases of thesis and anti-thesis I learned to seek the complexity of these issues, for the mere fact that they are often complex, even if I don’t understand them (I’m not a military expert) or information about the complexity is not available. For example, about destroying cisterns – I recently got into the case of Nahal Kane, where Israel is being blamed for destroying crop and water sources of Palestinian communities nearby. I learned about it from “peace/left/anti-Israel” organizations, but then I learned about the reports of international and national environment organizations showing how these new crops and water systems using the creek’s water caused one of the worst ecological disasters in that region in recent year, and how after years of attempts to resolve this issue with lack of cooperation, the Israeli authorities decided to remove the problematic infrastructure and uproot trees. I couldn’t find any other interest of Israel to do that – the region is not near any big settlement, it’s not “annexable”, and there were no land conflict in that area. The only motivation of Israel to do something “wrong” to the Palestinians there is evilness/boredom, and I refuse to adopt such views on Israeli authorities, since it would be racist and unfair.

      “waking up households arbitrarily in the middle of the night” – I believe it was one of these arbitrary incursions the led to the arrest of the murderers (almost children if I remember correctly) of the Fogel family. So it might be that these issues have something to do with security? Should I think that the army gets just bored (or evil) at night and soldiers don’t like to sleep so they prefer risking their lives and doing some unnecessary activities? Maybe, maybe not.

      Indeed, there is no military closure in Ramat Gan as there is sometimes in Hebron. Let’s comfort in the fact that there is Ramat Gan and it’s not so sure there would be one without a closure in Hebron. And please let’s not pretend that there is no security threat on the existence of Israeli Jewish lives – it is not an exaggeration to say that the moment Israel lay down its arms, that would be the end of Jewish life in that area (ok, maybe some would survive, again if they subordinate themselves enough).

      I refuse to accept that because Israel is stronger, and because Israeli Jews are the advantaged group here, they are not entitled to defend themselves from those who seek to destroy them. On the contrary – it is thanks to their advantage that they are able to survive, precisely because they use their advantage to survive. I understand the tendency to identify with the weak side, and I refuse to fall for that/ Comparatively, looking at how other countries dealt with and are dealing with such threats, Israel is a positive exception.

      That being said, I also refuse to accept the existence of crimes and wrongdoings just because the “occupation management” in general is justified and necessary. Soldiers who do wrongs should be punished, and Palestinians shouldn’t suffer any unnecessary hardship.

      Reply to Comment
    40. Maor

      Brewster, what is exactly interesting, the notion that things can be complex? that Israel might not be pure evil? I’m not sure…

      Anyway, I believe that we should be able to talk about one particular incident, even, matter, without necessarily imposing the same views on other or all cases, issues, situations. That is, if I find one case of uprooting of a particular tree in a particular place to be justified, that doesn’t mean that I support the immediate uprooting of all trees everywhere. Seems logical isn’t it?
      I was making the point that on a particular issue in which the Israeli authorities are presented as sons-of-bitches who only want to take away water and trees from the Palestinians, there are quite valid points that the authorities are making, and that there’s more to the story. About other cases – might be the same, might be different. You didn’t refer to a particular case so I don’t know.. If you want me to show you the complexity of a particular situation, let me know and I will try to help. You can however do it yourself – whenever you read something against Israel in places like this website, that brings only one side, try to be critical in your reading and look for information that will tell you the rest of the story.

      Reply to Comment
    41. Handala

      @Maor & Max:
      Are you guys unaware of the fact that there’s a MILITARY OCCUPATION and that the OCCUPIED are the ones in the defensive side whereas the OCCUPIER is the offender? Your logic and arguments seem to (purposely) ignore that and/or stubbornly flip things around.

      Reply to Comment
    42. Handala

      END THE OCCUPATION…then talk about Peace! Any (and i do mean ANY) form of RESISTANCE within the occupied territories by the occupied is legal, moral and righteous by all means.

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    43. Maor

      Handala, I will not answer for Max, but for me – exactly the opposite – everything I wrote comes from the understanding that Israel controls the area we’re talking about. However, I was also gifted with the ability to ask “why questions” sometimes and to try and see things in their wider context. There was a reason why Israel occupied the West Bank and other areas back then – it was, at that time, no matter how much you twist it, the most moral and acceptable way for a strong coutnry to deal with a population that is highly motivated to destroy it. Any other alternative to deal with it that I have in mind (i.e. what countries usually do in such situations) would be much worst.
      That doesn’t mean that this control doesn’t serve its purpose anymore and created new problems in time. I’m all in favor of this partial control’s end, but this should not be done just like that, “before we can talk about peace” – but should be done through cooperation, solid agreements and processes of taking control. Eventually I would also support a unilateral withdrawal if nothing else works, but then it wouldn’t exactly be a complete withdrawal.
      Another important point is that I am also able to see the evolution/development of the Israeli control and I don’t take it as a black evil box like you seem to be doing. I know, for example, that there were no internal checkpoints before 2000, and there were no fences or walls before the Palestinians started their conflict with Egged. I also know about areas A B and C, and I know that Israel’s control is partial depends on the field and territory (though still affect the lives of the locals to a great deal of course).

      Again, if you preach for violence, you can’t expect the military superpower against which you want to fight not to fight back. What exactly you think is going to happen when you fire thousands of rockets on a military superpower?
      Instead of insisting to sacrifice the children of Palestine for your distorted moral values, why don’t you convince them to stop with this nonsense about destroying Israel and accept one of the extremely generous offers of a military superpower that is still willing to give its enemies a territory it controls that will leave it with 12 km of coast?
      If you want to continue “resistance”, “BDS”, “Apartheid” lies and whatnot, then get ready for another 45 years in which you prevent the children of Palestine the good life they could have.

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    44. Handala

      @Maor:
      You type a lot to say very little…you are asking the right questions but easily fooled by the wrong answers (aka Hasbara)!
      Regardless of your intellectual blessings, the facts remain that Israel is an APARTHEID-like state, RESISTING it’s vile MILITARY OCCUPATION is moral and legal which the BDS movement is non-violent element of.

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    45. Maor

      Handala, if you really think that it’s unnecessary to go beyond a description of the current situation and understand the complex processes that led to it and the motivation of the factors that are involved, there’s really little point in typing much. You can always refute any attempt to deconstruct one sided perceptions of reality by saying “I don’t care, it’s occupation/apartheid”. Well, I do care, and as I wrote, I’m not fooled so easily, even when you give titles to my arguments (aka anti-Hasbara).
      I find “apartheid-like” interesting – so we’re giving up the desperate attempts to establish Israel as “Apartheid” and moving to “apartheid-like”? (sorry, “APARTHEID-like”, sounds more scary with capital letters…).

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    46. Handala

      I prefer to use the term “Apartheid-like” to avoid getting into futile debates arguing whether or not the inhumane Israeli occupation is comparable to SA. More importantly, i think the former is worse so simply calling it “Apartheid” doesn’t do it justice!
      There’s no need to complicate simple situations: there’s a mighty OCCUPIER humiliating, oppressing, displacing, exploiting and steeling resources from a defenseless population. IT MUST END!

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    47. Maor

      And there are militant organizations, countries, and some millions of people who are obsessed with denying the Jewish people’s national rights, some of them are more focused on denying the Jewish people any kind of human right, either by political or military means. THIS MUST END, particularly when it is the reason for Israel’s tough (but comparatively fair) security actions. Don’t expect Israel to commit suicide, not gonna happen.

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    48. Handala

      lol…run Maor, RUN!
      The only thing paranoia justifies is its treatment.

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    49. Marco

      Please. Getting kicked in the ass is probably the best thing that ever happened to that kid. Where are the parents who should be teaching that kid to not be a pain in the ass? See Rodney King for details.

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