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Toulouse murder, and on being Jewish vs. being Israeli

Thoughts following the terror attack in France.

I lived in France in 2003, and I still remember grafitti on the Metro walls linking Israel, the Jews and the conflict in one big anti-Semitic mess. There is no denying that relations worldwide between Jews and Muslims are affected by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (they are also influenced by local socio-economical factors, and other issues); yet I don’t like those who try to establish their arguments regarding the conflict in those terms. It takes really sick logic to even hold Israel partly responsible for hate crimes against Jews.

It was therefore encouraging to see prominent Arab voices denounce the killing clearly and unequivocally. For example, in an op-ed in the important Arab paper Dar-al-Hayat:

Is it a violent Islam that kills children and innocents and claims to be Islamic? Such barbaric acts are against religion, and human values. Those who commit such crimes in the name of Islam are murderous infidels… No normal person could commit such a crime. If the murderer is an Islamic extremist, he wants to see discord in a country that has secular laws, and respects all religions.

And here is Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad:

It is time for these criminals to stop marketing their terrorist acts in the name of Palestine and to stop pretending to stand up for the rights of Palestinian children who only ask for a decent life.

Such messages – natural and expected as they should be – bring hope in a sad week.


I also didn’t appreciate the political use of the Toulouse murder by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu – who tried again to delegitimize any criticism of Israel because it may influence distorted minds like that of the French killer. Norway’s Anders Breivik, who killed 78 people, mostly kids, quoted neo-conservative and Zionist writers. Does that fact in and of itself prove anything about Zionism or about neo-conservatism?


When I lived in Paris, my grandfather, a French citizen all his life, had already passed away, but his 80-year-old brother was still alive. The family lived in Argenteuil, a working class suburb that saw many North African families move in over the years. They felt threatened. I didn’t. Ten years earlier, when I visited my grandfather on my own, I took the wrong bus to his house on the way back from Paris one night and lost my way. I was 17. By the time my grandfather found me and picked me up, from a pay phone near a supermarket 10 miles away, he was totally panicked. I thought he was overreacting.

Having lived all my life in Israel, I don’t think I have much sense of the existential fear that Jews carry with them, which is different from Israeli anxiety over security issues. I am shocked and angered by the murder in Toulouse just like everyone else, but I have learned that such events don’t shake my world the way they do that of my Jewish friends and relatives abroad (especially the French ones). For me, this was another reminder of my need to be more sensitive to the unique circumstances of Jewish life in the diaspora.

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    1. aristeides

      It’s hard NOT to connect the murders with Israel when the Netanyahus of the world exploit the terrorism for their own ends, and when the victims are immediately carried off to be buried in Israel, when they were not Israelis.

      This exploitation feeds into the delegitimization of the Diaspora that I see coming from a lot of Israelis. As if the victims would have been “safe at home” had they made aliyah to the tiny country, surrounded by bloodthirsty Jew-hating enemies.

      Reply to Comment
    2. XYZ

      I saw the disgusting comment you left in Ha’aretz a couple of weeks ago regarding the Israeli families bereaved by the Palestinian suicide bombings and your comment about “victimization”. At first glance, many might think it would be appropriate to ban you for the vitriol you are continually spewing out, but I think it is very valuable…I hope you keep it up. As far as I am concerned, you should post as much as you like here. You show well meaning Israelis who want peace the true face of the “pro-Palestinian” (meaning “anti-Israel”) forces in the world.

      Reply to Comment
    3. “It takes really sick logic to even hold Israel partly responsible for hate crimes against Jews.”
      To hold Israel responsible or to hold supporters of Israel responsible — for hatred?
      Well, I don’t approve of hate crimes or terrorism, whether practiced “retail” by little fellows or “wholesale” by nation-states (such as Israel and the USA).
      That said, the world would be a vastly different place if many-many-many Jewish communities, synagogues, etc., came out NOISILY to condemn the Israel settlement program (and all aspects of the too long continuing occupation) and to demand the removal of the 650,000 settlers from ALL the territories which Israel today occupies as a consequence of the 1967 war.
      If they did so, they would immeasurably aid other people — other Jews and other non-Jews and ultimately their nations’ governments — to do the same thing.
      But, at least in the USA, such NOISY opposition to settlement and occupation is as rare as hens’ teeth.
      And this means that the Jewish communities and synagogues are, in effect and in appearance, complicit with the occupation and the settlements. Aiders and abetters, if you will. So, these Jewish communities and synagogues may not be responsible for hate crimes, but they are definitely responsible for making common cause with Israel and its actions. including its war crimes, etc ad naus.
      Had German communities in the USA been supporting Nazi Germany during WWII — but before the USA had entered the war — would they not have drawn hatred from those who know about the then-beginning Holocaust? And would Germany have been responsible for that hatred?

      Reply to Comment
    4. Steve

      Summary: Crazed Algerian Muslim murders innocent Jewish people in France.
      ARISTEIDES’s immediate response is… to bash Israel and Netanyahu.

      Reply to Comment
    5. Steve

      Yeah, PABELMONT! The entire world’s Jews need to promote hate of Israel! And Israel needs to stop defending itself! Then Israel can get wiped out by their lovely neighbors like lovely hamas, lovely iran, lovely syria, etc! And if the world’s Jews should cheer Israel dying! Then the world’s Jews should perform sexual favors for the nazis and islamic terrorists. And then there will be PEACE! YEAH!

      Reply to Comment
    6. Steve

      (The above is sarcastic, obviously.)

      Reply to Comment
    7. David

      “For me, this was another reminder of my need to be more sensitive to the unique circumstances of Jewish life in the diaspora.”

      Thanks v much for this sentence.

      Depressingly few Israeli leftists do appreciate the position that we’re in. It isn’t all antisemitism all the time. But it isn’t good.

      Still rather be here than in Israel though. People shouldn’t live in hot climates.

      Reply to Comment
    8. alessandra

      I don’t know if Noam has read the many ad many posts now appearing on France 4 or RFI facebook profile commenting the death of the murderer in Toulouse.
      Maybe people say only bullshits on facebook, I hope so, because it if is not I may totally understand the fear of your granpa’s brother. People appreciating the man, his behaviour, people sad about the fact he couldn’t kill more, people saying he’s a shahid and may he rest in peace near Allah. Well, let’s take these thousands people commenting are only a few and the majority is appalled by the crime. or better, let’s hope so.

      Reply to Comment
    9. Patrick Morin

      Thanks for your sensible article which I appreciated. I am terribly sad for the families of the victims as well as disgusted by the political recuperation made around these terrible events. I also understand the shock of the Jewish community and the Jewish families of the victims as much as the shock of the families of the three soldiers. A French citizen has killed 7 other French citizens of Jewish, Muslim and Catholic confessions…

      Reply to Comment
    10. Thank you Pabelmont.

      xyz – you left out a “some” there.

      Reply to Comment
    11. Tamouz

      Alessandra, those facebook posts are appalling and should be condemned.

      But so should posts on Israeli facebook sites calling for the beating and killing of not just Arabs, but anyone who opposes Israeli policy. https://www.facebook.com/pages/%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%A0%D7%95-%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%93-%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99/149605125093627

      There is anti-Semitism in Europe. There is anti-Palestinian racism (and general political hate) in Israel. Both. They don’t contradict each other, and the use of one to justify another is useless.

      Reply to Comment
    12. BTW, regarding the Jewish/Israeli divide, the saddest comment on record is by Olmert, who while PM stated that as the years go by, he feels more Jewish and less Israeli. WHILE PM OF ISRAEL.

      Reply to Comment
    13. Lauren

      What happened in France was horrifying. The ongoing issue of failing immigration policies are a big part of the problem. Letting people just come into a country who already resent the people of the host country, is suicidal. If you don’t like the way things are, just go home. Don’t bring your barbaric and archaic customs with you. Living in NYC, I have seen a huge uptick in the way immigrants behave in the last 20 years. They want to come here, not assimilate and are not interested in actually becoming an American. Fortunately, there are tons of immigrants that do appreciate the opportunity to live and work here. As a woman, I’m tired of certain cultures being overtly abusive and dismissive because of my gender. They have hit me, pushed me, insulted me and treat me as though I don’t matter. It’s not a single incident…… it happens all the time to a lot of us. That just makes me distrust them and not respect them. No, it makes me hate them. I’d ship most of them back to their 3rd world hellholes if I could. All this multiculturism is really about destroying Western culture and customs.

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    14. alessandra

      @Tamouz. you are right, but i do not read hebrew or arabic sorry, i was just telling what I read in french, and it shocked me so much, even girls and women writing such appalling sentences. you’re right, on Italian websites there are also very stupid and racist comments on arabs, mainly written by very ignorant people (you know, we have a xenophobic party called Lega Nord that did disasters in these years). but we all have to be aware of what’s going on, here and there.

      Reply to Comment
    15. delia

      I have to agree with PABelmont. The huge silent majority of diaspora Jews are paying an unjustifiable price for racist Israeli policies. I await the day (perhaps in vain) for an overwhelming number from that silent majority to break their silence.

      Reply to Comment
    16. Aaron the Fascist Troll

      “It is time for these criminals to stop marketing their terrorist acts in the name of Palestine and to stop pretending to stand up for the rights of Palestinian children who only ask for a decent life.” Has Prime Minister Fayyad ever said this about militants who target Jewish non-combatants in Israel, as opposed to France?

      Reply to Comment
    17. Aaron the Fascist Troll

      “It takes really sick logic to even hold Israel partly responsible for hate crimes against Jews.” I disagree. First of all, it’s clear that Israel is a major *cause* of crimes against diaspora Jews, whether or not it’s morally responsible. Not the proximate cause – that’s the terrorist himself, of course – but one cause, and a major one. I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that.
      And that actually gets you pretty close to moral responsibility. If Israel does something that’s likely to lead to crimes against Jews, knowing such, then Israel should take its share of responsibility. It’s like a bartender who serves too many drinks and lets the customer drive away. The bartender shares some responsibility for what happens.
      As the moral philosopher Michael Neumann points out in connection to Israel (but not to this particular question), there’s plenty of moral responsibility to go around. Saying that Israel (or the bartender) is partly responsible doesn’t make the terrorist (or the drunk driver) any less responsible.

      Reply to Comment
    18. Steve

      It’s amazing seeing people talk about “racist” Israeli policies, without also talking about “racist” Hamas/Palestinian policies, racist policies across Arab countries and most Muslim countries, etc.
      The nerve of Israel, not allowing itself to be destroyed by the neighbors! Some nerve!

      Reply to Comment
    19. Michael H

      It is wrong to conflate Israel with Jews. A rational person would not do so, but anyone who woulf gun down schoolchildren. Its in those instances that Israel – its actions and its rhetoric – act as a red rag to thr fundamentalist bull.

      Reply to Comment
    20. annie

      steve “Yeah, PABELMONT! The entire world’s Jews need to promote hate of Israel!”

      israel’s horrific occupation does enough promotion on it’s own, no one need promote it. exposure is not promotion it is just being truthful. but it doesn’t serve anyone to ignore it, it just makes one appear insensitive or even complicit. the government of israel sending envoys of israelis to foreign countries performing and promoting israel as if the occupation does not exist is insensitive and offensive. it serves israel and diaspora jews to acknowledge what is going on there and denounce it strongly. that is not promotion of occupation crimes. it is placing a much needed ethical barrier between oneself and crimes against humanity just as fayyad has rightly done for crimes carried out in his name, in the name of palestinians. no one could accuse him of promoting hate of palestinians by acknowledging a hate crime. the occupation is a hate crime, those who do not denounce it risk others interpreting ones silence as approval of alignment with the crimes themselves.

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    21. joe

      The saddest part of this whole thing is watching those who condone violence wriggle to suggest theirs is the only ‘just’ violence and that their deaths are the only ‘unjust’ ones.

      There are no just reasons to kill children in Afghanistan or in France or Gaza or anywhere. Why is that such a controversial idea?

      Reply to Comment
    22. sh

      @Aristedes – “It’s hard NOT to connect the murders with Israel…when the victims are immediately carried off to be buried in Israel, when they were not Israelis.”

      Apparently all the children had both Israeli and French nationality. I think Rabbi Sandler had French nationality but he lived in Israel and was teaching in that school as an emissary.
      @Rehavia Berman – Although it’s exceedingly odd for the PM of a country not to feel like a national, particularly if he was born there, I suspect there are quite a few Israeli citizens living in Israel who identify more as Jews than as Israelis even if they are atheist. Stateless Jew parents spawn stateful Jew children?

      Reply to Comment
    23. sh

      “It was therefore encouraging to see prominent Arab voices denounce the killing clearly and unequivocally.”
      Well, that may have been gratifying, but it’s also completely logical.
      What I found illogical when the Fogel family was murdered in Itamar was the shock and horror expressed by some, including +972, that the Israeli left didn’t jump fast enough to denounce the murders. I never really understood why they needed to.

      Reply to Comment
    24. Steve

      Annie said: ” the occupation is a hate crime.”
      My response: No, the “occupation” is a defensive-focused reaction to nonstop war and terrorism against Israel’s very existence and recognition by Israel that it makes no sense to hand land to people who want to wipe Israel out. Israel won control of that land from Jordan and Egypt. When Israel left Gaza, instead of peace in return Israel received nothing but more terrorism, so Israel has maintained border control. Israel’s “occupation” can end when sane people who want a permanent peace with the Jewish state of Israel are in full control of the Palestinians and have support of the Palestinian majority. So far, that has never happened.

      Reply to Comment
    25. aristeides

      Thanks, SH. Does the little girl have family in Israel? Is there someone who will come visit her grave there?

      I find the thought appalling that someone could so cold-bloodedly take political advantage of a tragedy to carry off a child’s body to a foreign place, alone. I hope that’s not the case this time.

      Reply to Comment
    26. Steve

      ARISTEIDES does not find the murder of Jews appalling. He waits to see what statements any Isrealis make, in the hope that something THEY say can be twisted and turned into something appalling.
      Really sick of this disgusting guy

      Reply to Comment
    27. Siren

      Noam: As a +972 regular, I didn’t know whether to be surprised or sad that the first mention of the terror attack was Ami Kaufman’s defence of Ashton’s (misconstrued) defence of it. Your two pieces on the subject make me wonder if you/the rest of the +972 writers are holding back on us.

      Now, for the record: We (ie your non-troll commenters who aren’t getting money or strokes to write talkbacks) all want/work to end the occupation and are frequently and repeatedly disgusted by the acts carried out in our names as Israelis. Murdered children, wherever and whatever the circumstance, is intolerable to all of us who care about human rights. But that doesn’t mean that we need to become apologists in the face of evil. You are presumably aware that there are many people (including some readers and commenters on your piece) who believe that the Israeli army behaves in exactly the same way, or worse, than the Toulouse murderer. Noam, you were in the Israeli army and you know that accusation isn’t relevant in this particular case of “compare and contrast”. You could have been very brave, and created a serious discussion, as opposed to chide Bibi for the shocking act of politicising the murders and not choosing to compare a trained murderer who actively sought to kill Jews and Muslim infidels to Anders Brevik, a mass murderer in a different circumstance with entirely different motivations. (Really? Really??)

      What’s to overthink here? Did the +972 editorial board learn nothing from the backlash on the articles about the Fogel family murder, and how long it took them to condemn it? (And some of them still refuse to, if your twitter feeds are anything to go by) Ami’s dubious article, and the fact that your reflective piece comes several days after the event, makes me question as to whether +972 is aware of the image it is creating for itself… Since when did “independent reporting from Israel and the OPT” mean that we can’t condemn murder as murder? We seem to have no problem pointing the finger at the disgusting atrocities carried out by our government- why can’t we be equally critical when we are attacked?

      Further, admitting that ugly hatred of Jews is a documented historical phenomenon, and has existed around the world in many countries for centuries, irrespective of Israeli policies since/in ’67, ’48, whatever, will not suddenly turn any of you into an “Israel First-er”. The (decidely non Israel-First-er) Palestinian President Salam Fayyad outrightly condemned the murder for the atrocity that it was, and even managed a NIMY – yes, you quote him, but why does your “shock and anger” need to come with such a heavy disclaimer? Reflecting on how Israelis/Jews don’t get each other, or the dangers of the diaspora, is all well and good (and even interesting) but this article reads as nothing more than a diversion from facing the harsh lessons that can- and must- be learned from this particular incident.

      Reply to Comment
    28. XYZ

      Rehavia Berman-
      I am sorry to be the one to break this to you but the Arab/Israeli conflict is basically a zero-sum game BECAUSE THE ARABS HAVE DEFINED IT AS SUCH. I have no doubt that there are many people of good-will on both sides who would be glad to work towards a compromise peace in which everyone cooperates for everyone’s benefits, but the leaders of the Palestinians, along with the backing they receive from outside Arab and other Muslim powers do not want such a thing. Just look at how the official media in countries that have peace agreements with Israel talk about Israel AND JEWS (Egypt, Jordan). It’s the extremists who set the tone and call the shots for everyone else who has to suffer because of it.

      Reply to Comment
    29. Aaron the Fascist Troll

      Joe, the major just war traditions do justify the killing of non-combatants in some cases, including innocent children. Look up “double effect,” for instance. It’s your position, not ours, that is far outside the moral mainstream. That doesn’t make it right or wrong, but it means that you got it backwards with your use of the word “controversial.”
      I don’t know whether your comment was partly in reply to me, but if so, then remember that I’ve said here that Palestinian terrorism *is* sometimes morally justified, or at least often has been in the past.

      Reply to Comment
    30. Steve

      So “AARON THE FASCIST TROLL” thinks that Palestinians murdering Jewish civilians is “sometimes morally justified.” What a disgusting, horrible person he is. There’s nothing “progressive” or positive in any way about such a person or such a suggestion.

      Reply to Comment
    31. annie

      ah steve yes yes yes we’ve all heard that explanation ad nauseum. and as you’ve wiped out palestine continually and continue to do so you keep complaining about how the other seeks to wipe you out as if your wiping is somehow less horrific than their alleged aspirations! that narrative you keep pushing decade after decade, the one you want to keep using to justify keeping millions of people rightless and stateless for generations until you’ve stolen every single inch of their homeland and until the descendants of the religious fanatics in your midst aim their sites on the rest of your homeland on the other side of the jordan river, yes that very narrative..it’s getting old and worn out and not too believable anymore. you may believe it but the rest of us have not endured the decades of brainwashing israelis have been subject to. it just not a winning framing anymore. if the goi weren’t still stealing more and more land it might have more traction. So far, that has never happened.

      Reply to Comment
    32. daniel

      Siren, you made some good points, but I’m afraid 972 has long ago stopped being an “independent report”, unless by “independent” you mean mostly biased half blind.

      Reply to Comment
    33. Aaron the Fascist Troll

      Steve, do you consider terrorism categorically unjust, or only in certain circumstances, such as the Israeli-Arab war? If the latter, then what are the circumstances that make (made) terrorism unjust specifically in that case? Was the American Indians’ use of terrorism against European-American settlers also unjust? What would be a justified use of terrorism?
      And on the other hand, if targeting non-combatants is categorically unjust, then by what means, if any, can an indigenous population justly resist a (civilian) settler movement?

      Reply to Comment
    34. XYZ

      Aaron the FT-
      Look at the question pragmatically. Did American Indians scalping white settlers stop the settlers? Has 100 years of Arab terror directed at the Jewish civilian population in Israel defeated Israel? Even in Rhodesia, attacks on the civilian population failed to defeat the white minority regime…it was upgrading the military capability of Mugabe’s rebel forces and South African sanctions agains the Rhodesian government that forced them to compromise.
      After the German invasion of Poland, the Nazi regime made a point distributing films of their bombardment of Warsaw around the world. I am sure you have seen some of these films…they show buildings on fire collapsing and people running in panic in the streets. Goebbels did this in order to scare people in the world, particularly the British and Americans in order and to make them think the Nazi war machine was unstoppable and civilians would suffer if the war continued. Did Goebbel’s propaganda strategy work? No, it made people more determined than ever to fight them.
      Terror makes people despise terrorists more and more willing to fight them. Ask yourself this question…has the ongoing slaughter in the name of Islam being carried out in places like Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Algeria, Nigeria and in Europe made people respect Islam more or less, as a whole?

      Reply to Comment
    35. directrob

      Aaron, terror attacks may be for a good cause but they are despicable and not defensible. I do not care whether they are done by the heroic, great and sickly IDF or low terrorists. Ami is right, the death of a child is terrible.

      Reply to Comment
    36. sh

      Aristeides, the reality is as follows: most of the French families with dual Israeli/French nationality have residences in Israel and live a kind of two-centered life that sees them here for all Jewish festivals and school vacations. There is, therefore, no problem with regular visits to the childrens’ graves and there is nothing cold-blooded about it. What is cold-blooded, in no particular order, is:
      – not allowing Palestinian refugees to bury their dead here the way so many diaspora Jews even without Israeli nationality can,
      – not having one’s dead to bury; as I’m sure you know, many Jewish families both in Israel and abroad fall into that category.

      Reply to Comment
    37. Susan

      First of all, many French Jews want to be buried in Israel. There was an article about why this is so on CNN’s web site.

      So, I have to issue a public statement opposing Israel’s policies or its my fault and Israel’s fault if I get murdered by a follower of Al Qaeda? I don’t think so.

      Reply to Comment
    38. sh

      Noam Sheizaf said: “Having lived all my life in Israel, I don’t think I have much sense of the existential fear that Jews carry with them, which is different from Israeli anxiety over security issues.”
      Actually it isn’t different at all. If Israel is so concerned over security issues that it needs to bomb its way to Beirut on that pretext, or lop off bits of Syria and a future Palestinian state for the same reason, it is a prisoner of exactly the same existential fears. And I’ll tell you a secret. Diaspora Jews deal with those fears – have done for centuries – and lead normal – if sometimes anxiety-ridden – lives notwithstanding. The reason your relatives in Argenteuil were afraid of their Arab neighbors is because of the way we in Israel treat ours.
      But maybe they were also afraid of your coming up against plain old European thuggery on a dark night, never mind if it’s Jew-directed or not?

      Reply to Comment
    39. joe

      Aaron, I don’t care about the ‘just war’ traditions, given they are just theological excuses dreamed up by the powerful to justify that Might is Right.

      And I find your justifications incomprehensible. Are you saying this gunman would have been justified in killing policemen? How are you deciding what is legitimate and what is not?

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    40. aristeides

      Thanks for the explanation, SH.

      Reply to Comment
    41. Laurent Weppe

      «People appreciating the man, his behaviour, people sad about the fact he couldn’t kill more, people saying he’s a shahid and may he rest in peace near Allah»

      Every time something like this happens, one can see a pissing context between extremists who agree with the killer and extremists who want to use the killer’s existence to justify their demands that his ethnic group be punished.

      When Breivik killed nearly 80 persons, within days the net was filled with comments finding him excuses and with comments saying that his killing spree “proved” that white Europeans where ontologically racist.

      And next time a jewish extremist starts a killing spree, the same thing will happen: a pissing contest between bigots defending him and bigots saying that the killing spree validate their intent to harm Jews.

      In fact, speeking of “extremists who want to use the killer’s existence to justify their demands that his ethnic group be punished” one does not have to look farther than this very comment section:
      «The ongoing issue of failing immigration policies are a big part of the problem.»
      «Letting people just come into a country who already resent the people of the host country, is suicidal»
      «Don’t bring your barbaric and archaic customs with you»
      «it makes me hate them. I’d ship most of them back to their 3rd world hellholes if I could»
      See how Lauren’s rant turns a single individual into the poster child for all immigrants who are then proclaimed resentful and barbaric, a postulate from which Lauren gain the self-righteousness to confess her hatred and desire to commit ethnic cleansing toward them.

      As I said: events like the Toulouse killings always cause pissing contests between bigots

      Reply to Comment
    42. Ben

      I saw a post that cited MICHAEL NEUMANN as a moral authority, and wanted to thank the person who wrote that for reminding me that there is no ceiling on the bankruptcy of the Hard Left.

      Reply to Comment
    43. aristeides

      Thanks to Ben for calling attention to this insightful author.

      Reply to Comment
    44. Steve

      AARON THE FASCIST TROLL above has admitted that he feels it’s sometimes OK for Palestinians to murder innocent Jewish civilians.
      What a disgusting, evil, sick person he is. He belongs on a neo-nazi or white nationalist site, or a hamas site. Not a site that allegedly promotes peace.

      Reply to Comment
    45. Steve

      DIRECTROB wrote: “Aaron, terror attacks may be for a good cause but they are despicable and not defensible.”
      My response: Terror attacks from islamic extremists against Jewish people are “for a good cause?!?!?!”
      This DirectRob maniac is as disgusting as Aaron The Fascist Troll
      Wow, quite a group of “peace activists” (LOL) here!

      Reply to Comment
    46. delia

      O, give me a break, Steve. You know bloody well that Israel is on shaky ground here (not to mention that people are getting fed up with Israeli victimism). Israel, an illegal occupier with the fourth largest army on the planet, including a couple hundred nukes, is in no position to cry victim when Palestinians exercise their legal right, under international law, to resist the illegal occupation.

      But that’s not the point here. The point is that if Israel keeps insisting that there’s no difference between Israeli Jews and diaspora Jews, then diaspora Jews will continue to pay for Israeli policy. It’s high time diaspora Jews stood up on their feet and demanded a stop to this dangerous nonsense.

      Reply to Comment
    47. Aaron the Fascist Troll

      I’m not justifying these murders at all. I think they’re unjustifiable. The point I made to Joe about just-war traditions is that it’s his own views that are extreme and far outside the mainstream, whether or not he cares about just war theories.
      I cited Michael Neumann, not as an authority, but just to give him credit for an argument that I think stands on its own. That said, I think that Neumann is one of the very best writers on the Israel-Arab war, anywhere. Obviously, I disagree with a lot of what he writes.

      Reply to Comment
    48. Aaron the Fascist Troll

      XYZ, sometimes terrorism works and sometimes it doesn’t. It was an effective tactic in the Algerian war of independence, wasn’t it? In World War II, the German army’s murder of non-combatants (collective punishment, but basically the same idea) was an effective tactic against partisan resistance. I’d argue that most of the progress the Palestinians have made in their war against Israel has been a result of terrorism. Same with all the foreign aid they get – the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
      The practical question has a moral implication, in that some consider wars to be unjust if there’s no chance of achieving the goals. But Palestinians have had and do have a chance of achieving their goals with terrorism. Therefore, you can’t rule out the justice of terrorism on pragmatic grounds.

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    49. directrob

      Aaron, on “pragmatic grounds” one day the people in Israel have to live with each other. Blowing up busses with “non combattants” does not help to achieve that. Intelligent large scale non violent actions are just as effective and do not have such bad side effects.
      On moral grounds attacks against civilians are simply unacceptable. The death of a mother, father or child is a terrible thing.

      Reply to Comment
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