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Three arrested blocking Israeli bulldozers in Khan al-Ahmar

Israeli forces are preparing to demolish and displace the entire Palestinian village of Khan al-Ahmar. European diplomats attempt a solidarity visit but aren’t allowed to enter. The demolition is part of Israel’s ‘E-1’ plan to dissect the West Bank, isolate East Jerusalem.

By Oren Ziv

Israeli police arrest an international solidarity activist who had attempted to block a bulldozer brought to prepare for the demolition of Khan al-Ahmar, July 5, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Israeli police arrest an international solidarity activist who had attempted to block a bulldozer brought to prepare for the demolition of Khan al-Ahmar, July 5, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Israeli police and army officials showed up in the Palestinian village of Khan al-Ahmar with bulldozers and other heavy equipment for the second day in a row on Thursday, preparing for the impending destruction and forcible displacement of the entire village.

A dozen Palestinian, Israeli, and international activists tried to block one of the bulldozers from entering the village Thursday morning by sitting in front of it and chaining themselves together. One international activist managed to chain himself to the bulldozer itself.

Police arrested three of the internationals, and later confined the rest of the solidarity activists in the village school’s courtyard.

Swedish, Irish, Norwegian, Dutch, British and other diplomats visited Thursday morning but left after police wouldn’t allow them to actually enter the village. Police attempted to block more activists and journalists from coming to the village, going so far as to ticket any cars attempting to drop them off on the side of the road.

A mother and daugher from Khan al-Ahmar look on as Israeli forces prepare to demolish their entire village and forcibly displace them from it, July 5, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

A mother and daugher from Khan al-Ahmar look on as Israeli forces prepare to demolish their entire village and forcibly displace them from it, July 5, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

The impending destruction and displacement of Khan al-Ahmar, expected to take place any day now, has been called a war crime by rights groups like B’Tselem and condemned by various foreign governments.

“Even though this is just preparation, in reality the demolition is begun,” said one activist who has been staying in the village in solidarity with its residents. “They haven’t demolished any homes but it seems the village’s fate has been sealed.”

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The destruction of Khan al-Ahmar and displacement of its residents is part of Israel’s plan to expand its settlements in the E-1 area, which if completed, “would dismember the potential Palestinian State into two, non-contiguous cantons and seal off East Jerusalem from its environs in the West Bank,” describes a position paper by NGO Terrestrial Jerusalem.

“If built, it is a game-changer, maybe a game-ender,” the 2012 Terrestrial Jerusalem document continues. “E1 is the ‘binary’ settlement. If you support E-1, you cannot possibly be in favor of the two-state solution; if you are in favor of the two-state solution, you must oppose E-1.”

Palestinian, Israeli, and foreign activists attempt to block Israeli equipment brought to prepare for the demolition of Khan al-Ahmar, July 5, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Palestinian, Israeli, and foreign activists attempt to block Israeli equipment brought to prepare for the demolition of Khan al-Ahmar, July 5, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

In the past, pressure by American and European diplomats succeeding in staving off demolitions that seemed imminent. In the weeks since the Israeli High Court gave its final go-ahead for the village’s destruction, Khan al-Ahmar has again become a site of frenzied activity, including protests, press conferences, and Israeli and international activists and journalists driving up and down the unpaved road that leads to the village.

The struggle of Khan al-Ahmar is the latest chapter in the Jahalin Bedouin tribe’s 70-year-long history of dispossession and forced relocation by the Israeli government.

A view of al-Jabal, with the Israeli settlement of Kedar in the background, June 12, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

A view of al-Jabal, where Israel wants to forcibly move the residents of Khan al-Ahmar, with the Israeli settlement of Kedar in the background, June 12, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Before Israel’s establishment, the Jahalin lived in the area of Tel Arad in the Negev, located in present-day Israel. Following the 1948 war, the Israeli military forced them out of their villages and into the West Bank; they settled in the pink, rocky hills of what today is known as Mishor Adumim. When Israel occupied the West Bank in 1967, the Jahalin again found themselves at the mercy of the IDF.

In the 1990s, the Israeli government came to view the Jahalin, who mostly lived in unrecognized villages without running water or electricity, as an obstacle to settlement expansion plans. Beginning in 1997, Israel demolished three of their villages and forcibly transferred the inhabitants to what is now al-Jabal, where just 12 Jahalin families were living at the time.

A map showing Khan al-Ahmar (top-right arrow) and Arab Jahalin—Al-Jabal (bottom arrow). (OCHA-OPT)

A map showing Khan al-Ahmar (top-right arrow) and Arab Jahalin—Al-Jabal (bottom arrow), where Israel wants to forcibly move the residents of Khan al-Ahmar. (OCHA-OPT)

After being pushed out and bused to their new homes in al-Jabal, each family received a shipping container to live in, where they lived for over three years.  A 1998 United Nations reportcondemned “the manner in which the Government of Israel has housed these families in steel container vans in a garbage dump in Abu Dis in subhuman living conditions.”

The Israeli government’s forced expulsion of the Jahalin from their villages has done more than simply relocate them; it has destroyed their traditional way of life. A people accustomed to freely herding goats and sheep up and down the hills of the Judean desert must now raise its livestock confined to pens of just a few square meters.

UN officials have condemned the plan demolition and forced transfer of Khan al-Ahmar. The UNRWA Director of Operations in the West Bank, Scott Anderson, warned that the Israeli government’s plan, if executed, “would be a grave breach of the Geneva Convention.”

Joshua Leifer contributed to this report. A shorter version of this article also appears in Local Call in Hebrew. Read it here.

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    1. Ben

      It could not be more obvious that Israel, and those who continue supporting this GOI, do not want peace on any remotely reasonable terms. Fact, evidence and proof. (And it’s the very same people who sputter and splutter about how a one-state solution is just impossible, impossible we tell you!)

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        Oh yes, it could not have been more obvious that Israel who has offered multiple peace agreements to the Palestinians, some backed by Clinton and Kerry, don’t want peace and the Palestinian leadership who rejected every single one of them and openly and very clearly state they don’t consider Israel as a legitimate country and they see all of Israel as theirs, cleansed from Jews of course, are the ones who want peace.
        I don’t think I can stress enough how a ‘one state solution’ is never, ever going to happen. Israel is not suicidal and has no intention of becoming a de-facto Arab state.

        Regarding Khan al-Akhmar, the actual facts show a different picture:
        https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/12416/palestinian-illegal-building

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          No one honest with himself believes this “actual facts” propaganda, either that within your post or that within the link provided. You’ll disagree, I know. (We’ve been over this, in depth, including why responding to what is sure follow from you is a complete waste of time.) But that’s how it is. I mean, really, you are kidding no one who actually reads this magazine and has eyes to see.
          Israel is uninterested in peace
          https://972mag.com/israel-is-uninterested-in-peace-the-only-solution-is-for-zionism-to-disappear/136621/

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “You’ll disagree, I know” – Reality disagrees. Read the link I provided.
            “We’ve been over this, in depth” – oh yes. I repeatedly proved you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about. I’ll provided the detailed evidence here as well after this post.
            “you are kidding no one who actually reads this magazine” – a pro-Palestinian leftist blog with articles that sometimes borders on alternate reality science fiction disagrees with reality based facts ? you don’t say!
            “Israel is uninterested in peace” – facts, based on very, very clear evidence, including what I just posted above which you ignored (of course) regarding the Palestinians, clearly say otherwise.

            And you bring me a link from this very blog, an interview saying some of the more delusional nonsense with complete disregard of actual facts and reality like what the current Palestinian leadership actually say and do, what the Israeli governments said and did. What I mentioned in my previous post, etc.

            Why is he ignoring the fact that the Palestinian President and his representatives openly and very, very clearly say that Israel is not a legitimate country and all of Israel is their “Palestine” ?
            He seemed to have a good relations with the Holocaust denier anti-semite Abbas, how is he not aware what is going on when they say so openly ?
            I like how his solution is for Israel to cease to exist. But “not by force”. The guy should do comedy.
            This interview is so detached from reality that it’s amazing. He literally spews some of the more delusional conspiracy theories (“the Israelis killed Arafat”).
            I like how he cements the Palestinian worldview: there is no compromise. No negotiations. It’s what we say, nothing else, regarding the Arabs right of return. Something Israel will never, ever allow because Israel is not suicidal.
            And of course he calls for the de-facto end of Israel: “There is no solution apart from taking all of Palestine and living in all of Palestine” and of course when the interviewer mentions the millions of Jews living in Israel he says “Nations have moved throughout history”. Hilarious. The guy is peace personified.
            “I think that the best place for Jews is America”. And of course he lies: “Zionism expelled six million Palestinians”. No they didn’t.
            You do grasp that when he says “occupation” he means all of Israel, right ? not the West Bank ? thanks for the link, that actually proved what I said quite well.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            And just to wake up to facts, the entity comprising Israel and the territories it occupies is already a de facto one state. The parties involved have just not worked out yet how fully apartheidist the first phase is going to be, or how messy and protracted it is going to be to go through the successive phases and sort it out.
            All the excuses about not achieving two states are known excuses, verified Bibi-subterfuges, but kind of beside the point now. And anyway the Israelis created this problem and they have to find a solution. They could easily have done this years ago but did not want to. Now it is that much harder. That’s what happens when you procrastinate and practice denial. It’s ultimately dysfunctional and the chickens come home to roost.

            (Same advance disclaimer about how responding to the inevitable blowback from you is a known complete waste of time. But have at it, champ. This page could use some useless clutter and ad hominem encrustations. Why don’t you see if you can break your own impressive record for most uses of the ad hominem “liar” on this page? We’ll be rooting for ya.)

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Oh, I forgot—you’ve completely blown your cover now about being “against the occupation.”

            (Same advance disclaimer….)

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “blown my cover” ? hilarious.. you do realize Area C is legally under Israel’s control, right ? as agreed by the Palestinian authority themselves ?
            Also you do realize that to the Palestinian leadership (and the guy from your article) the “occupation” means all of Israel, from the River to the Sea, right ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            This “blown your cover” nonsense intrigues me. Since what I said was this: I’m in favor of dismantling West Bank settlements as part of a peace negotiations, and the area in question is Area C, administered by Israel as part of the Oslo Accords which dictates Israel has exclusive civil jurisdiction over, and is going to be part of Israel (Israeli wedge running from Jerusalem through from Maale Adumim to the Jordan River) as discussed with the Palestinians in the 2000 peace talks (which ended when Arafat decided to leave of course). So please, clear this up for me.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Nope, most certainly it isn’t as based on actual facts: the Palestinian Authority, as dictated the Oslo Accords, controls the West Bank area A as full civil and security control and B as full civil control and joint Israeli-Palestinian security control.
            Gaza is the de facto Hamas Palestinian state ruled by Hamas theocracy.
            Of course you are factually incorrect regarding Apartheid since they are not Israeli citizens (and never will be) but citizens of the PA and Gaza.
            “All the excuses about not achieving two states” – yes, the Palestinians refusal to accept the legitimate existence of Israel, the Palestinian leadership openly and very, very clearly stating that they don’t accept Israel’s existence and they see all of Israel as theirs.
            How can you repeatedly ignore these facts ? this is amazing.
            “Israelis created this problem and they have to find a solution” – Right, Israel rejected the Partition Plan and tried to genocide the Arabs. Oh wait, it was the other way around. And Israel tried, multiple times, a couple backed by Clinton and Kerry.
            The Palestinians rejected every offer. There is no compromise, it’s “what we want or nothing else”, see the article you linked yourself.
            “That’s what happens when you procrastinate and practice denial.” – nearly choked on this one. You were literally describing yourself. Your denial of reality is mesmerizing.
            “the chickens come home to roost” – the chickens want to destroy Israel and to cleanse it of Jews. Your own article illustrate that fact pretty well. You do realize your link was, how shall I put this gently, extremely counterproductive for you ? I like how you ignored it completely. Hilarious.

            “Why don’t you see if you can break your own impressive record for most uses of the ad hominem “liar” on this page” – ad hominem implied a personal attack on you and not your argument. I did the exact opposite when I proved your argument is filled with lies, distortions and embarrassing mistakes, repeatedly.
            I posted the evidence again, it’ll probably take a day or 2 to appear since it’s quite a lot.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            Ido, your comments denying the similarity with an appartheid regim has no sens.

            The appartheid crime has nothing to do with citizenship. It’s define as an “institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime”.This difference of citizenship is just a “legal” instrument to discriminate the israelis and the palestinians, living in a same israeli-administrated area (palestinian living in area C and in Jérusalem).

            Regarding the area A and B (partially) controled by the PA, it’s really similar to the same bantoustan that was also “controlled” by the black people during the appartheid in South africa.

            You should read Mandela on it http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/mandella.html. I think he knows better than all of us what appartheid looks like

            Reply to Comment
          • tom

            Mandella vs Progrund, it’s an opinion among others, the debate is open

            But this important issue has nothing to do with a difference of nationality.

            The definition of appartheid crime is clear, let’s the ICC do its job…

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            The debate can be open, but Israel factually is nothing like South Africa’s Apartheid.
            We’ll see if the Arab/Muslim countries won’t turn the ICC into a farce like they did to the UNHRC.

            Reply to Comment
          • tom

            If Mandela used to compare Israel and South Africa appartheid, I would not be so sure than this comparison is completly false…

            Of course, situations are differents, but if you change Israelis by Whites, Arabs by Blacks, and bantoustan by Area A, there are a lot of similarities.

            But unfortunatly for palestinian, they don’t have the equivalent of Mandela… :/

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            The blacks in South Africa didn’t want to destroy South Africa and cleanse it of “whites”. The comparison is false, see my link.
            The occupation exists in the West Bank, never said it wasn’t. But it’s not Apartheid (system of institutionalized racial segregation and discrimination based on supremacy, etc.)

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            Your link is interesting, but I hope you have read the one written by Mandela too 😉

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            I did. My link details all the things he ignored.

            Reply to Comment
          • duh

            Pogrund: “But from my perspective, there is none of the institutionalized racism, the intentionality, that underpinned apartheid in South Africa. (…) Security concerns have dictated Israel’s precautions and responses, not an ideology of apartheid racism.”

            There’s a paper trail of Zionist ideologues advocating some form of segregation in the eventual “Jewish” state – and even practicing it. Herzl wrote in his diary that land purchased for the state would never be sold back to gentiles and that poor non-Jews would be persuaded to move out of the borders by denying them employment. Arthur Ruppin oversaw the recruitment of Jewish Yemenis for employment in the first aliyah settlements – while they had to live in special barracks built for them. Better still, they were banned from the kibbutzim altogether. The Histadrut’s membership was only open to Jews and it frequently attempted to replace Arab workers in Jewish-owned businesses.

            Pogrund also espouses this nugget: “A mass return would destroy Israel as a Jewish state, which is the whole purpose of its existence.”

            The whole point of apartheid was to make South Africa an Afrikaner (i.e. white) state by segregating and relocating black Africans into their own “homelands” but it was a logistical failure. Having lived in South Africa, he should know this perfectly well.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            I understand why pro-Palestinians use the word Apartheid, due to its charged emotional overtones, but factually the situation in Israel is nothing like Apartheid South Africa.
            You ignore the reason and context of Israel’s actions that are not remotely similar to Apartheid.
            “some form of segregation in the eventual “Jewish” state” – sorry but this is nonsense. 20% of the population in Israel are Arab, many consider themselves Palestinians. In the PA and Gaza there are zero Jews, they have a law which sentences to death anyone who sells property to a Jew, Jewish citizens are not permitted by law to enter Palestinian controlled area, etc. You seem to be a bit confused.
            “Herzl wrote in his diary that land purchased for the state would never be sold back to gentiles” – quote please, since many Pro-Palestinian sites have a habit of distorting them to fit their agenda or simply lie.
            The Palestinians have a law, which is active today, sentencing to death anyone who sells land to Jews. Who is the racist ?
            “while they had to live in special barracks built for them” – I’ve seen this distorted accounts in quite a few anti-Israel sites, what they and you neglect to mention is that everyone at that period of time was sent to Ma’abarot, not just Yemenis.
            It was a necessity due to the current situation of young Israel. By the way, the Palestinians in the PA and Arabs in Arab/Muslim countries keep the Palestinians “refugees” as perpetual refugees for political/strategic reasons. For 7 decades. In Israel there are no ma’abarot for a long, long time.
            Seems like the Palestinians are, by your definition, Apartheid. Against their own civilians. And Jews.
            “they were banned from the kibbutzim altogether” – Israel isn’t perfect, just like your country, especially back then. Never said it is but calling it Apartheid is factually incorrect.
            “The whole point of apartheid was to make South Africa an Afrikaner” – again you don’t seem to understand the context and situation. Israel is surrounded by countries who have been trying to destroy it, literally. The Palestinian leadership openly call for Israel’s elimination and they see all of Israel as theirs and it should be cleansed of Jews.
            Turning it into a de-facto Arab state is fulfilling Arafat’s dream of ending Israel without firing a single bullet.
            Israel has no intention of committing national suicide. The PA and Gaza are 100% Jew-Free. As I said, you seem to be a bit confused.
            And he’s right of course, Israel was created to be the Jewish state. Read its declaration of Independence. Take a look around Israel, we have no intention whatsoever of becoming another Arab failed state.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            More stock anti-Semitizing “Judenrein” propaganda. You never tire of this BS. The Israeli settler-occupier-thief as victim. Give it up. It’s offensive, big lie stuff. There is no resistance to Israeli settlers’ crimes you can’t turn around into some “it’s just because we are Jews, you see, otherwise they’d love for us to steal their land and oppress them” nonsense. It’s quite offensive and dishonors the real victims of real anti-Semitism. (And no, it’s apartheid. ‘Duh’ refutes Pogrund. Your arguments to the contrary are unpersuasive.)

            Reply to Comment
          • duh

            This is the complete Herzl quote:

            “When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. The property-owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly. Let the owners of immovable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth.
            But we are not going to sell them anything back.

            “It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate per-
            sons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and
            their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is an-
            other area in which we shall set the entire old world a wonderful
            example. At first, incidentally, people will avoid us. We are in bad odor. By the time the reshaping of world opinion in our favor has
            been completed, we shall be firmly established in our country,
            no longer fearing the influx of foreigners, and receiving our visi-
            tors with aristocratic benevolence and proud amiability.

            “The voluntary expropriation will be accomplished through our secret agents. The Company would pay excessive prices. We shall then sell only to Jews, and all real estate will be traded only among Jews. To be sure, we shall not be able to do this by declaring other sales invalid. Even if this did not run counter to the modem world’s sense of justice, our power would not suffice to force it through.”
            (Complete Herzl Diaries vol I p 88-89, 12 Jun 1895)

            Now you expressed concern about his remarks being distorted or made up altogether, so clearly you agree what he was proposing there would be a form of segregation.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            You full quote is as I suspected a fabrication and out of context. The start of “Spirit the penniless population” and “expropriation and the removal…” etc is a popular part of a falsified filled with omissions quote which seems to be circulating in Pro-Palestinian sites.

            Here is the source of the fabrication and what was actually said in context:
            https://www.camera.org/article/updated-mazin-qumsiyeh-lacks-credibility/

            You are aware that at the time of that entry, he did not consider Palestine to be the future site of Jewish resettlement but rather South America, right ?

            Reply to Comment
          • duh

            https://archive.org/stream/TheCompleteDiariesOfTheodorHerzl_201606/TheCompleteDiariesOfTheodorHerzlEngVolume1_OCR_djvu.txt

            The full passage I quoted was certainly written by Herzl as you can see here. It’s actually better for my argument that he wasn’t talking about Palestine because it shows his plan to build a “Jewish” state was segregationist in the abstract.

            btw as is clear from the entry he planned on coercing poor non-Jews to leave the eventual state while respecting those with property (when they don’t sell to the Zionists apparently). This is similar to the Cape Colony before the Union of South Africa. Property ownership was required to vote which effectively made whites the majority of voters even though black Africans were the larger demographic. While the constitution prohibited racial discrimination, the property ownership requirement was gradually increased to disenfranchise more non-whites. The most obvious takeaway from Herzl’s writing was that in his Zionist state non-Jews would have rights only if they owned property. Of course this could’ve escalated to a more comprehensive program of exclusion like what happened in South Africa.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            And when you take it out of context and omit certain parts of it you misrepresent the meaning of Herzl’s entries.
            Herzl wrote of finding employment for the locals in other countries, of buying their property only from those willing to sell and for more than the owners would have expected and then keeping the properties for Jews. And of respectfully tolerating and protecting those of other faiths.
            That’s not Apartheid, just like Israel is not Apartheid.

            From the full entry: “When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of immovable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back.

            It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire old world a wonderful example. …

            Estate owners who are attached to their soil … will be offered a complete transplantation–to any place they wish, like our own people. …If this offer is not accepted either, no harm will be done. … we shall simply leave them there.”

            “his plan to build a “Jewish” state was segregationist in the abstract” – So Albania, Estonia, Japan, Iceland, Greece, etc any other nation state are also Apartheids ? Israel was founded as a Jewish state in 1948. Its “Basic Laws” describe it as both a Jewish and a democratic state.
            Again: the situation in Israel is not Apartheid. The context, circumstances and background is vastly different. And why are you ignoring the racist laws and actions the Palestinians have which I described in some detail, which you ignored for a 3rd time now.
            If you want to see something actually similar to Apartheid, watch how the Palestinians treat their own people:
            https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/22435

            Reply to Comment
          • duh

            “That’s not Apartheid” – no, Herzl was not proposing the exact system cooked up by the Afrikaner nationalist govt. in the late 1940s. He was only contemplating a denial of employment to poor non-Jews in the eventual state and reserving all land acquired by the holding company only for Jews. Both measures were enacted against Jews in the Russian empire. Herzl knew that perfectly well and should noticed the similarities to what he was suggesting, hence his double-speak about respecting persons of other faiths and only buying from those willing to sell. If you use your brain for a bit and take his proposals to the logical conclusion, once the Zionist movement had state power it would be more difficult for the property owners to refuse to sell – and the state would have the option of taking the property without a sale, period. That may be speculation, but those two measures he concretely proposed, both of which were implemented by the Zionist movement irl with varying degrees of success, are enough to show he pre-meditated a segregationist state.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “That may be speculation” – Exactly.
            “Herzl was not proposing the exact system cooked up by the Afrikaner nationalist govt” – nope, which was exactly my point, a response to your and others statement about Israel being Apartheid which is factually incorrect.
            Israel was founded as a Jewish state in 1948, for the Jewish nation. So Albania, Estonia, Japan, Iceland, Greece, etc any other nation states are also Apartheids ?

            I don’t mind discussing things written more than a century ago but it’s hard not to notice how you once more ignored what I said about the Palestinians’ own laws and actions today, not more than a century ago, which fit your definition of Apartheid better than Israel. Also you ignored the link in the previous post showing how what the Palestinians do to their own people is very similar to SA’s actual Apartheid, you know, the topic of our conversation ?

            Reply to Comment
          • duh

            “So Albania, Estonia, Japan, Iceland, Greece, etc any other nation states are also Apartheids ?”

            Try the US before 1964 (and arguably now with the reservations), Kenya under British rule, Mozambique before 1975 and Rhodesia. Add on Southwest Africa and Poland under the Germans. Also Australia under the “White Australia” program. Given the proliferation of colonial-settler states in the early 20th century when Zionism started out, and the actual conduct of its early settlement building, it’s all but a foregone conclusion a Zionist state would’ve followed suit regardless of where it was built.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Again: not remotely similar to the situation with Israel and the Palestinians. Different situation, context and background.
            “when Zionism started out” – so you have no idea about that as well ? Jews lived on land they owned, the current situation is a direct result of the Arabs rejecting the Partition Plan and trying to destroy Israel and kill the Jews. There was no Palestinian state or nation as the Palestinian narrative lies about, most of the so called “Palestinians” of today are relatively newcomers to the area and you can easily trace them back to their origin tribal regions based on their tribal surnames.
            Again: nothing similar.

            You didn’t answer my question and you again ignored what I posted about the Palestinians laws and actions.

            Reply to Comment
    2. Ben

      @Tom: the entity comprising Israel and the territories it occupies certainly constitutes an apartheid regime, by the definition you supply. It doesn’t have to be just like South Africa in particulars. South Africa was one example of apartheid.

      As for the deceptive talk being spouted here about Oslo and Area C and legal frameworks and their intentions, this must be read (only one should update this to say “celebrates 25 years”):

      By Noam Sheizaf | September 13, 2012
      An agreement on indefinite occupation: Oslo celebrates 19 years
      https://972mag.com/an-agreement-on-indefinite-occupation-oslo-celebrates-19-years/55788/

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        And so, Tom, anyone who smugly tells you that “Area C…is going to be part of Israel (Israeli wedge running from Jerusalem through from Maale Adumim to the Jordan River)” just like that,* and also gives the deceptive hasbara account of why talks between Barak and Arafat ended, and a deceptive account of the intentions and purpose of Oslo, but out of the other side of his mouth protests he really truly is in “favor of dismantling West Bank settlements as part of a peace negotiations” towards a viable two state solution, well, you can’t have an honest conversation with such a person, a conversation that is not a waste of time. That is a person whose cover was already blown and then here took the blown cover and shredded it to nothing.

        * See the article on this page:

        “E1 is the ‘binary’ settlement. If you support E-1, you cannot possibly be in favor of the two-state solution; if you are in favor of the two-state solution, you must oppose E-1.”

        Reply to Comment
        • Ido

          “smuggly” ? hilarious. So you had no clue about this ?
          https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3

          “and also gives the deceptive hasbara account” – see the link above, liar.

          “other side of his mouth protests he really truly is in “favor of dismantling West Bank settlements as part of a peace negotiations” – please explain how the 2 contradict themselves. Israel had no intention of handing that specific area and it was made clear to the Palestinians, see my link.
          Just like for example Israel will never hand Ariel to the Palestinians.

          “whose cover was already blown” – why do you continue to lie about this ? see my posts above.
          “E1 is the ‘binary’ settlement” – a series of tunnels and bridges could be constructed that together create an efficient version of ‘transportation continuity’ between the northern and southern West Bank.
          A future second Arab Palestinian state (after Jordan) could have never been anything else, see Gaza and the West Bank.

          Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        Why have you ignored the posts above debunking your clueless nonsense ?
        And you should brush up on what ‘Apartheid’ actually means since you obviously have no clue as Israel is not Apartheid as I showed Tom.
        And of course you lie about the Oslo Accords, or you simply have no idea what it was about.
        It was a declaration of principles aimed to achieve a peace treaty. It wasn’t a peace treaty. Why are you ignoring the Palestinian side’s action ? did the Palestinians renounce violence ? did they stop calling for the eradication of Israel ?

        Why are you ignoring (or simply not aware) that it was basically Arafat enacting his ‘Phase Plan’ ? which he later literally admitted in an interview ?
        If you read the PLO’s “phased plan” from 1974, when it decided to eliminate Israel step by step, you understand how the Palestinians violations were clearly premeditated.
        Did the PLO change their Covenant calling for Israel’s destruction ? Did they stop Incitement to violence Against Israel ? Did they stop recruiting terrorists to serve in the Palestinian Police ?
        By the way, thanks to the Oslo Accords this is the first time the Palestinians actually govern themselves in history. Since of course a Palestinian country/nation never existed.

        Reply to Comment
        • Tom

          Ido, it’s not because you say there is no appartheid that means you have proved something !

          Yes if you look at only the Israel on the green line border, Israel can be see as a “medium” racist state (only 50 descrimination laws against palestinians) and the compararizon is hasardous.

          But if you look at the global picture including he area under israeli control (area A B C and east jerusalem) this occupation system has build a segregation system with different right (right to travel, right to move, acces to water and natural ressources etc.) between two types of people based on their ethnicity/citizenship.
          It’s a “temporary” occupation that is turning slowly into a permanent “de facto” appartheid.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            I said it’s not Apartheid because it is factually not Apartheid based on actual reality and what Apartheid means. See the link I provided.
            You speak as if you have no idea about the context and situation Israel is in, you ignore the laws and actions of the Palestinians themselves. Mainly their leadership’s goals regarding Israel and the Jews in it.
            For example: the Palestinians have a law which sentences to death anyone who sells property to a Jew. You mentioned racism ? there are zero Jews living in the PA controlled areas, how many Arabs identifying as Palestinians live in Israel ? who is the racist ?
            Jewish citizens are not permitted by law to enter Palestinian controlled area. Although the signs say ‘Israelis not allowed’, anyone with more than 40 IQ knows it actually means ‘Jews’ as Israeli Arabs, Bedoiun and Druze enter it without any risk or problem. Jews will be risking a lynching by a mob.
            There are roads forbidden to Jews in the West Bank. I’m assuming you have no idea about the Palestinians’ water theft and many illegal drillings in the West Bank which of course also drain the Palestinians supply.
            So the Palestinians are Apartheid then. The no Jews allowed, death sentence to selling land to Jews, Jews can’t enter, etc. Why are you ignoring the actions of the Palestinian side ? their refusal to accept the legitimacy of Israel and their repeated calls for Israel’s elimination and the murder of Jews ? you think all of this has no consequences ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            What you are describing is exactly an appartheid situation. The white people was not also safe to go in black bantoustan. I m not denying anything about the responsabilities of each stakeholders including the PA (but it was not the purpose of the discussion), maybe it’s a de facto appartheid for “security” reason…

            Just a last comment, Israel is controling 80% of the water ressources in west bank. So yes, agree, there are water theft and “illegal” wells (as a lot of country in the world in fact) but how can it explain why palestinian consumption is in average 75 litter per hab per day knowing that the settlers have more than 350 l/h/d ?? (the WHO recommend a minimum of 100 l/d/hab).

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “What you are describing is exactly an appartheid situation” – no it isn’t because the reasons, context and situation is completely different. Not to mention how by your definition the Palestinians are a bigger Apartheid.
            I understand why pro-Palestinians use the word Apartheid, with it’s charged emotional background, but Israel is not Apartheid based on the definition of the word.
            “The white people was not also safe to go in black bantoustan” – the comparison is ridiculous. Those whites and blacks were both citizens of South Africa. The Blacks weren’t brainwashed to see all of South Africa as theirs, the Blacks’ neighbors didn’t try to destroy South Africa, they didn’t see all of South Africa as theirs and the whites should be cleansed, There was no “jihad” against the whites. There were no religious sermons, speeches, TV shows on official South African TV calling for the killing of whites and taking over SA. Palestinians enter Israel everyday and they are not lynched of course.
            You ignored the rest of the reasons why Israel is nothing like Apartheid and how the Palestinians fit the bill much more.
            “maybe it’s a de facto appartheid for “security” reason” – which by definition isn’t Apartheid, read the definition of the word.
            “how can it explain why palestinian consumption is in average 75 litter per hab per day knowing that the settlers have more than 350 l/h/d ??” – direct your complains to the PA who thinks investing lots of funds in the “death to the Jews” department and having no cooperation with Israel is more important. Same for Hamas.
            What about the Palestinian political resistance against joint water management and cooperation that is responsible for the slow development of the Palestinian water sector ? The PA considers water and waste as weapons against Israel, not as areas of cooperation with Israel.
            A study published by the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies refutes Palestinian accusations of inequitable and discriminatory Israeli water policies:
            https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Palestinian-lies-like-water-319582

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            AGAIN the appartheid definition has nothing to do with citizenship so you can’t use this argument again and again ! I am not saying that it’s the same appartheid than the south africans one, but there are some similiraity you can’t deny. Let’s do the ICC do its job !

            Regarding the water, your article is totally biased and full of mistakes, ISrael do not give water but sell it (from wells in area C mainly). There is a big problem of collecting fees that explain why palestinian people may pay less in average (expect palestinian living in area C than need to pay 20NIS/m3 because Israel not give permit for network in area C). But don’t worry, at the end the PA pay totally its bill through the net landing.

            Regarding the wastewater, please look at the PA strategy before spreading lies. They have already built at least a dozen, and plans to continue. The main problem (additional to the complexity of this kind of very expensive project) is “where to build” when you don’t have access to most of rural area C (you can”t build a wastewater treatment plan it in the overpopulated area A !), and get a permit in area C is a nightmare. Anyway, Israelis are really happy to treat wastewater they bill at a VERY expensive price (through net landing, you know the story) and reuse the treated wastewater for agriculture.

            A little bit of reading for you :
            https://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/WaterRestrictionsReport18Apr2009.pdf

            http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/573916/EPRS_BRI%282016%29573916_EN.pdf

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1) I was comparing the situation in Israel to actual South African Apartheid, I thought I made it clear. The situation is remotely different as I showed you, in detail.
            Apartheid by definition is an authoritarian political culture and institutionalised racial segregation and discrimination based on supremacy. The situation in Israel is very, very different.
            I said the situation in Israel is not similar to Apartheid South Africa and provided details, one is the fact that the Palestinians in the PA and Gaza are not Israeli citizens. The blacks in SA were citizens of SA and it has a lot to do with Apartheid because it was a country enacting racial segregation and discrimination against their own citizens.
            “am not saying that it’s the same appartheid than the south africans one” – you don’t seem to know the definition of the word, you don’t seem to grasp how the situation and context in Israel is different.
            By your definition the Palestinians are a better choice of being called Apartheid based on their laws and behavior towards Jews as I mention, which you ignored.
            “but there are some similiraity you can’t deny” – a guy shooting another guy is the same if he wanted to steal his money or if he was defending his family from a murderer. Similar isn’t it ? who cares about the actual details, context and reason.
            “Let’s do the ICC do its job” – if it’s going to be the same farce as the UNHRC or the UN in general when it comes to Israel, then I won’t be holding my breath.
            “Israel do not give water but sell it” – and when the PA violated its water agreements with Israel by drilling over 250 unauthorized wells ? and when they buy it they pay much less than what Israelis in cities like Ariel pay, if the Palestinians bother to pay at all. Money handed to them by international donors. So you basically ignored all the details in the article and the research. Israel has fulfilled all of its obligations according to the agreements it signed in 1995 with the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinians are wasting tremendous amounts of water while refusing to utilize modern water conservation or sewage treatment methods, apparently they prefer to invest their resources and millions of dollars sent to them in the “death to the Jews” department and the bank accounts of PLO executives.
            The Palestinians routinely lie about water Statistics, they routinely steal Israel’s water, they were allocated the Eastern Aquifer in the West Bank and they barely began to use it.
            The Israeli-Palestinian Joint Water Committee has approved the drilling of 70 water wells by the PA for this purpose, yet more than half of the approved wells have not yet been drilled.
            And of course the use of the situation as a weapon against Israel. The Palestinians also rejected on political grounds a proposal which would have created a water desalination plant in Gaza specifically to meet Palestinian needs.
            it’s much easier to steal water from Israel and simultaneously complain that Israel is drying out West Bank Palestinians.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2) “Regarding the wastewater”, “”before spreading lies” – I didn’t lie, you just choose to ignore the details in my link. The PA considers water and waste as weapons against Israel, not as areas of cooperation with Israel.
            Only one sewage plant has been built in the West Bank in the past 15 years, despite there being a $500 million international donor fund available to the Palestinians for this purpose, and despite the fact that Israel has practically begged the PA to build these sewage plants. Only very recently did the PA agree to accept World Bank funding for wastewater treatment plants in Hebron and Nablus.
            Israel builds a sewage pipeline, like the Wadi Kana trunk line to collect waste water from several communities in the Kalkilya district and treat the sewage in Israel, the PA declines to cooperate.
            It has not connected the 11 Palestinian towns in the area to this new sewage line. Why are you ignoring the Palestinian political resistance against joint water management and cooperation, their massive corruption and mismanagement ?
            “you can”t build a wastewater treatment plan it in the overpopulated area A” – lying nonsense. Like overpopulated Gaza, anyone with Google Maps and an Area A maps can see through your lies.
            “Israelis are really happy to treat wastewater they bill at a VERY expensive price” – so you just basically ignored everything written in my article, ignored completely the actions of the Palestinians and their reasons.

            “A little bit of reading for you” – It basically ignored everything posted in my article regarding reason and context and verifies the mismanagement and failures of the PA. Maybe investing so much of their resources in their “Jihad” against Israel and not their own civilians is not a wise move.
            The second article only lightly mentions the lack of cooperation on water management between Israelis and Palestinians, and only hints at the Palestinians mismanagement and corruption. It does mention the bad infrastructure and no desalination, see what I said about the PA priorities.
            They do list lack of infrastructure and resources as a main problem, basically repeating what I said. They of course neglect to mention the reasons.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            Again, Your article is totally biased, and not accurate : Pretending than one WWTP was built is just a LIE. I can give you minimum 5 to start : North Gaza, Jericho, Nablus, Al Bireh, Al Tireh plus 3 in the comming years (Bethlehem, Tubas, Hebron, ). Yes building a WWTP is something difficult, and to find a good location, in the valley, in a over-populated area A !

            In all case, all the wastewater treated by Israel comming from Palestinian territories, are billed to the PA at a expensive price (than cover the infrastructure capital cost, the O&M, and the administration fees).
            In all case, each drop of water provided by israelis are paid by the PA, at the same bulk tarif price than for settlments (I m not talking about the Customer Price). There are some illegal PRIVATE wells but you can’t compare it to a “stealing of water from the PA”, and yes there are a natural spring than was dry by a settlments wells. The most famous is wal Auja but there are some other in Tubas area.
            http://jordanvalleysolidarity.org/reports/al-awja-spring-a-palestinian-dried-up-source-of-life/

            Yes, there are leakage in the network, a lack of good governance in the service, but at the end, this can’t explain the final datas (80 l/hab/d versus 300 l/hab/d). It’s mostly the consequence of a huge injustice in the water sharing between palestinians and israelis people.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            I agree with Tom. He sets things right. On apartheid. On the related water issues. Ido’s responses are tortured logic, propaganda talking points, distortions or outright falsehoods. But you see what you are dealing with. According to Ido, it’s the settlers who are the victims. And I guess Israelis all the time sell land to Arab Palestinians and invite them to travel on roads through Israeli settlements and the coastal plain? Who knew? As if the Palestinians’ movement were not severely restricted at every turn and in every place. But those poor, poor settlers, unable to travel like kings on certain roads in occupied territory. Simply because they are Jews. Just like that. Suuuuuuure. This sick, upside-down nonsense needs no further refutation. The brutal, thieving occupier as victim. You can’t embarrass them. You just can’t.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, Then like Tom you are wrong again. You again refuse to address my posts pointing out your clueless lies and nonsense, you basically proving me right with your own link about ending Israel and cleansing it of Jews. A fact you now ignored for a 5th time.
            “Ido’s responses are tortured logic, propaganda talking points” – why are you lying again about this ? how many times have I provided the list of your lies, embarrassing mistakes and nonsense ? how many times have I provided facts based evidence that you simply ignored, like you did here ?
            “distortions or outright falsehoods” – Again: lying about this won’t somehow make it right. It’s amusing though coming from you, someone who I proved so many times is a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about.
            “According to Ido, it’s the settlers who are the victims” – and another lie. Where have I said it ? please, go ahead.
            “And I guess Israelis all the time sell land to Arab” – is that your way of deflecting the racist barbaric Palestinian law of killing anyone who sells property to Jews ? hilarious. Arabs make 20% of Israelis, go visit some areas near Arab cities and towns to see how wrong you are.
            “Palestinians and invite them to travel on roads through Israeli settlements” – and this is your way to deflect the fact that Jews are not allowed on some roads in the West Bank ? hysterical. So you had no idea Palestinians enter settlements all the time to work, did you. You’re clueless, hat a shock.
            “As if the Palestinians’ movement were not severely restricted” – and nothing the Palestinians did or claim has anything to do with those restrictions ? just like nothing they do has anything to do with Jewish civilians being restricted in the PA controlled territories, right ?
            I do find your deflection attempts amusing. Infantile but amusing nonetheless.
            “Simply because they are Jews” – yes, exactly. Jews are restricted from roads, to enter towns by law, to buy land from Palestinians, etc.
            “Just like that” – yes. Go see the signs near the PA controlled area. You obviously had no clue about any of this.
            “This sick, upside-down nonsense needs no further refutation” – I just refuted your lying nonsense in detail.
            “The brutal, thieving occupier as victim” – never said any of this, liar. I stated facts regarding laws and restrictions against Jews for being Jews. Remind me, what word did you use to describe this sort of thing ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            In my view there is not one honest sentence in this diatribe. As a rebuttal it fails. (Ditto with your replies to Tom, in my view.) I stand by what I said.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You again equate resistance to colonizing Israel settlers, who are Jews, with persecution of Jews. And you do this in a remarkably simplistic, black and white way. It’s just propaganda. It would be as if someone characterized resistance to Spanish Conquistadors by ancient Mexicans as persecution of Hispanics. In my view there is not one honest sentence in your unfortunate diatribe. As a rebuttal it fails. (Ditto with your replies to Tom, in my view.) I stand by what I said.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben explain how does calling for the eradication of Israel and for the slaughter of jews is “resistance to colonizing Israel settlers”.
            You yourself proved my point quite well with your link, which you now ignore for a 6th time.
            And of course you are factually incorrect: the racist Palestinian laws against Jews predate the settler’s existence and are based on Islamic dogma – any land who enters Islam has a one way only and it should never leave the control of Muslims.
            And lynching Jews who enter Palestinian towns by mistake is not “resistance to colonizing”.
            “It’s just propaganda” – I like how you paint easily proven facts and evidence not to your liking as “propaganda” and think this has any legitimacy. Or how you simply ignore posts repeatedly, see the ones you ignored here.
            “as persecution of Hispanics” – your comparison is almost as laughable as you providing evicence that I was right about Palestinians seeing all of Israel as theirs and their call for Israel to be cleansed of Jews, see the explanation at the beginning of this post.
            “In my view there is not one honest sentence in your unfortunate diatribe” – oh sure, key words: “in my view”. Since when actual facts based reality made any difference for you ? you providing evidence for what I’ve been saying and now ignoring it for a 6th time is just the icing on the denial of reality cake.
            “As a rebuttal it fails, I stand by what I said” – I pointed to you in my previous post how you had no idea what you were talking about, in detail. you ignored it (again). Keep lying to yourself, I don’t mind. Reality however is not going to change.

            Reply to Comment
    3. Ben

      And Ariel! LoL. See what I mean, Tom? Complete waste of time. The cover is vaporized. An amusing lesson in the pretensions of an Internet propagandist, exposed. One can only hide one’s true aims for so long. Time to send in a new agent. Cover blown!

      (The usual advance disclaimer….)

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        Ben, why have you again not responded to my posts to you above ? debunking your usual nonsense ? you bringing in evidence that literally proves that I’m 100% correct regarding Israel’s elimination and the cleansing of “Palestine” from Jews ?
        Why are you ignoring it again ?
        Why have you ignored the link I provided proving what I said about the region you seemed to be clueless about ?
        Israel has no intention handing over cities like Ariel, that’s why the last peace agreement said 95% and not 100%. That’s why Israel offered land swap instead, so you have no idea about that as well ? Apparently the Palestinian leadership has yet to grasp the concept of compromise.
        “pretensions of an Internet propagandist, exposed” – the only thing exposed here is your tradition of refusing to answer posts, your denial of reality and your ignorance.
        “One can only hide one’s true aims for so long” – hilarious. Speaking about true aims, why have you completely ignored for several times my posts regarding your link affirming what I have been saying all along ? cleansing of Israel from Jews ? the goal of eliminating Israel ? turning into a de-facto Arab state, etc ?
        You think ignoring it will make it go away ? are you 5 years old ?

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          Another ad hoministic temper tantrum. You’re just upset that you’ve been exposed as a fraud. Anyone who says he supports withdrawing settlements to achieve a viable 2SS and then reveals that Ariel, Ma’aleh Adumim and E-1 are a package on which he feels the Palestinians have inexplicably failed to “compromise,” and on top of that pulls the outrageously anti-Semitizing, Israeli settler-excusing bullsh*t you just did, well, that person will naturally be upset when we point out that he has exposed himself as a fraud. No one hides his true self for long.
          Meanwhile the real story about E-1 is given by the article above on this page. Lest we forget.
          Bye bye.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Again: ad-hominem means attacking you not your argument, I did the exact opposite. How hard is it to grasp this ?
            “You’re just upset that you’ve been exposed as a fraud” – repeating this lie, as I explained it in detail twice above, in posts you didn’t answer of course, will not somehow make it the truth. It only shows your denial of reality, as if I needed more proof.
            “Anyone who says he supports withdrawing settlements” – again: how is this relevant to what I said ? why are you ignoring the fact that Israel made it very, very clear that it’s not going to withdraw from all the West bank ? 95% rings a bell ?
            “the Palestinians have inexplicably failed to “compromise,” – if the Palestinians think Israel is willing to withdraw to the indefensible 1967 Borders there are more deluded than you.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaNV5ZzSs9I&t=1s

            Yes, 95% instead of 100% is preposterous, especially when the rest was offered as land swap.
            “anti-Semitizing, Israeli settler-excusing bullsh*t” – can you clear up this nonsense ? lost you there in all the nonsense pile.
            “exposed himself as a fraud.” – lying again about this won’t somehow make it the truth. Keep trying.
            Again: why did you ignore my posts ? why did you ignore (5th time) how you yourself verified what I’ve been saying all along about the Palestinians goal of ending Israel and cleansing it of Jews ? thank you for the link by the way. Not that I needed more proof but thanks.

            Reply to Comment
    4. duh

      “Also you ignored the link in the previous post showing how what the Palestinians do to their own people is very similar to SA’s actual Apartheid”

      Okay you win, what the Palestinians do to their own people is similar to apartheid because the resistance also did things to “their own people”. Ever heard of necklacing?

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        “similar to apartheid because the resistance also did things to “their own people” – Not what I said. What the Palestinians do to their own people is very similar to what was actually Apartheid, the segregation and abuse.
        “Ever heard of necklacing” – ever heard of ignoring the part about the Palestinians own laws and restrictions regarding Jews for a 7th time ? interesting that you mention this, are you aware of what the Palestinians do to their own people they blame are “collaborating with the Zionist regime” ? I don’t think there is name for that type of torture and executions since they are quite varied.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          What the Palestinians do to their own people is apartheid? Patent nonsense.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            You mean besides the discriminatory two-tiered segregation system maintained throughout the West Bank by the Palestinians on their own people ?

            http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/22435

            It was already established here that you’re clueless, there’s really no need for more examples but thanks anyway.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Also why have you ignored the posts here where I show how clueless you are ? why have you ignored the posts about you providing evidence how the Palestinians call for Israel’s end and want it to be cleansed of Jews ? mirroring the Palestinians leadership refusal to accept the legitimate existence of Israel and how they see all of Israel as theirs ?

            Why have you ignored the posts above debunking your clueless nonsense ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You’re not a serious interlocutor. Never have been. But a bit of free advice: Your habitual “so you have no idea about that” schtick is particularly ineffective. Ditto the “clueless liar” schtick. It betrays someone who wishes he had a dumbed down, actually clueless audience of people who can’t find the West Bank on a map—and with such an audience your belligerent con artistic attempts at intimidation might be an effective ploy. But since your posting on +972, where the Magazine is deeply informed and informative and the commenters are for the most part well-informed people who have read a lot and know a lot and can’t be duped, it just comes across as fake, as ludicrously patronizing, and just dumb. Like you’re not ready for prime time. And, as I said, like you wish you had an audience this act would work on. But you don’t. So you are ridiculous. Ridiculous claims, feeding off Arutz Sheva junk, about apartheid don’t help your case or your low reputation either. No one will take you seriously.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, the posts are right there. I’m looking at them right now.
            I very seriously proved you wrong and pointed it out very, very clearly. I also pointed out where and when you simply ignored my posts and you mention being serious ?
            ” Ditto the “clueless liar” schtick” – I have literally posted lists of your lies, detailed lists where you outright lied and you continue with this nonsense. Here, I just posted the lists again at the Facebook comments section. Go right ahead.
            How can you continue to lie about lying and think I can take you seriously ?
            “where the Magazine is deeply informed” – oh yes. Sadly sometimes it’s Pro-Palestinian detached from reality nonsense, See the example in the Facebook comments section, I’ll ass an example to the post where I detailed your lies and clueless nonsense.
            “can’t be duped” – only spread disinformation, lies and literally fantasy fiction unrelated to actual reality, see the example in the Facebook comments section.
            “Like you’re not ready for prime time” – hilarious, not only have you again ignored my posts and refused to answer my questions, you continue with this amusing nonsense as if this will somehow divert attention from your clueless lies, you repeatedly ignoring posts and your embarrassing mistakes – see the various posts above which you ignored.
            “feeding off Arutz Sheva junk” – which fact they state is wrong ? out of context ? and you don’t even realize the hilarity when you bring in links from Pro-Palestinian sites like this news blog.
            “about apartheid” – as I proved in great detail on this comments section, Israel is not Apartheid. You can continue to lie about this, reality isn’t going to change.
            I repeat: why have you ignored the posts here where I show how clueless you are ? why have you ignored the posts about you providing evidence how the Palestinians call for Israel’s end and want it to be cleansed of Jews ? mirroring the Palestinians leadership refusal to accept the legitimate existence of Israel and how they see all of Israel as theirs ? how it should be Jew-free ?

            Why have you ignored the posts above debunking your clueless nonsense ?

            “your low reputation” – as always, I love it when you finish with a hearty joke.
            “No one will take you seriously.” – said the clueless liar who repeatedly ignore posts, refuses to answer question and as I showed here above and doesn’t seem to know what he’s talking about.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            That’s another really odd thing you do. Someone tells you that they disagree with you because your posts don’t show what you think they show and you respond perseveratively with “but they are right there!” We know they are.
            Just really odd.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Being factually incorrect and lying is not “a disagreement”, it is not “critique” which was hilarious when you said that. Again you didn’t answer the posts in this comments section, again you ignored all the posts where I showed how you’re clueless, again you ignored the part where you literally proved that I’m right by providing evidence of how Palestinian call for Israel’s elimination and for cleansing it from Jews, literally. And you still continue to lie as if none of it exists. Amazing.

            And of course you lie about the existence of your countless lies and embarrassing mistakes I posted in the Facebook comments section. That’s another hilarious thing you do. So all these lies of yours do not exist ? some examples:

            Ben: “Hamas and Fatah accept the legitimate existence of Israel.”
            Ido: “No they don’t, here is proof with links of their leaders and spokespersons literally spelling it out to you”
            Ben: “For Ido, when Israeli politicians say things it’s for ‘political’ purposes”.
            Ido: “lie, I didn’t say this, the article Bruce linked said it in the first paragraph”
            Ben: “Israel does not accept the legitimate existence of the Palestinians”.
            Ido: “lie, here’s the proof (Oslo Accords, which the Palestinians admitted were a deceit on their end, Gaza withdrawal, several peace negotiations attempts to create a second Palestinian state, etc”
            Ben: “the 1993 recognition of Israel was the mother of all concessions”.
            Ido. “Nope, Arafat was on record saying it was a deceit, he was following his Phased Plan, here is the proof (links in the Facebook comments section)”.
            Ben: “a recognition that Palestinians were surrendering their political claim to around 78% of what had very recently been their country”
            Ido: “Lie, a Palestinian country never existed. “Palestine” is a name of a geographic region last controlled by the British Mandate, a Palestinian country, the way the Palestinian narrative lies about, never existed. In fact most of Palestine is now a Palestinian Arab state, known as Jordan which was established on most of “Palestine”.
            Ben: “The Palestinians has recognized the independent statehood of the other, Israel”
            Ido: “Lie, see multiple evidence in the Facebook comments section”.
            Ben “The Palestinians have recognized Israel, in 1993 and many times since”
            Ido: “Lie, false. Hamas openly denies this, the PLO openly denies this. I linked the proof (again) in the Facebook comments section”
            Ben: “The Jewish nation doesn’t exist”
            Ido: “Hilarious lie, absurd, saying one of the oldest nations on earth doesn’t exist”
            Ben: “you said “The Palestinians are anti-Semites””
            Ido: “Lie, no I didn’t”.
            Ben: “You refuse to see the Palestinians as human beings”
            Ido: “Absurd lie, not only that, I talk about the Palestinian leadership, Hamas and Fatah/PLO, not all the Palestinians”
            Ben: “you said they’re all Jew-hating zombies, programmed to kill”
            Ido: “Lie, no I didn’t”
            Ben: “what you say is just propaganda”
            Ido: “Lie, I literally linked to videos of the leadership of both Palestinian faction saying what I claimed they say, you ignored it, again”
            Ben: “you incessantly generalize to all of the Palestinians”
            Ido: “Lie, I repeat: I specifically talk about the Palestinian leadership, not all the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians”
            Ben: “there is no video of the founder if ‘Breaking the Silence’ lying on video”
            Ido: “Lie, there it is”

            See the evidence and proof for everything I said in the first link in the Facebook comments section.
            Do you want me to continue ? there’s a lot more.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            @Ido: I’m quite OK with these exchanges you link to. I just looked a few over, not as obsessively as you but glanced at a few. I feel none of them bear out your charges. Quite the opposite. Including this obsessive list of manipulated excerpts you lovingly arranged here. (And your obsession with me betrays your lack of confidence.) It must be clear to anyone normal how eerily empty are your monotonous “facts” and “lies” allegations and “evidence and proof” claims. Ignoring your posts is not evidence of anything except that, and the sure knowledge by now that replying will only produce more of the same emptiness. If anything embarrasses me reading these links it’s how long I let these exchanges go on cluttering up these forums before concluding that ignoring you is the only thing one can do.

            But in the end these exchanges did serve a purpose: they uncover how right wing Israelis really think, they show how empty their propaganda is (and it’s mostly all propaganda), they show to what lengths they will go to kid themselves and try to kid others, they show the insularity and fanaticism and why outside measures will be needed. A basic premise right wing Israel has is “this is our thing, butt out, only we can solve it,” but Israelis persistently fail to realize that the occupation is not “our thing,” it is not “internal,” it involves other people and occupied territories and is fundamentally international. The last thing people should do is leave them alone.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Again you didn’t answer the posts in this comments section, again you ignored all the posts where I showed how you’re clueless, again you ignored the part where you literally proved that I’m right by providing evidence of how Palestinian call for Israel’s elimination and for cleansing it from Jews, literally. And you ignore the multitude of evidence above that you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about. Again.
            How do you expect me not to look at you like a sad joke ?

            “I’m quite OK with these exchanges you link to” – of course. You’re quite OK with being caught lying and being clueless and literally proving my argument. repeatedly. Why wouldn’t you ? you didn’t address them then and you refuse to do so now, coming to terms with the fact that you’re a clueless liar is not very pleasant.
            “I feel none of them bear out your charges” – Your feelings are irrelevant to proven facts and evidence showing repeatedly how you’re a clueless liar. And you don’t understand saying this or ignoring posts repeatedly where I show how you’re a clueless liar in detail makes you look like a joke.
            “Including this obsessive list of manipulated excerpts you lovingly arranged here” – how do you think lying like this, “manipulated excerpts”, when the evidence is shoved in your face over and over again, and you not being able to refute it, makes you look anything other than a joke ?
            Which of the multitude of your lies and embarrassing mistakes is “manipulated excerpts” ?
            “And your obsession with me betrays your lack of confidence” – sure, either that or I’m amused by your lying nonsense. And your inability to address your many lies and mistakes repeatedly, or for example the fact that you literally proved that I’m right about the Palestinian view of eliminating Israel and literally cleansing it from Jews shows lots of confidence. Lots.
            “how eerily empty are your monotonous “facts” and “lies”” – prove it. Show it. Why is this so difficult for you ? which of the many lies and mistakes of yours is out of context ? manipulated in any way ? go ahead.
            “Ignoring your posts is not evidence of anything except that” – nope, it’s evidence that you have a problem facing reality.
            “replying will only produce more of the same emptiness” – are you “paraphrasing” again ? coming to terms with the fact that you’re a delusional clueless liar is now “emptiness” ?
            “how long I let these exchanges go” – what can I say, I’m amused by your lying nonsense and delusional mistakes. For example you saying “no they don’t” and me providing videos of said people saying it to your face, literally, is quite amusing. See the links in the Facebook comments section.
            “ignoring you is the only thing one can do” – Sure, what better way to evade the huge amount of evidence showing how you’re a clueless liar ?
            “they uncover how right wing Israelis really think” – hilarious. Nope. They uncover how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about. repeatedly. Not only that, you actually prove me right. Why did you ignore that post for 11 times ?
            “their propaganda” – facts based evidence, that you could not refute, is not propaganda. Lie to yourself as much as you like, reality isn’t going to change.
            “that the occupation is not “our thing” – how many lies and delusional nonsense you said about the occupation ? especially when I provide evidence of the Palestinian leadership themselves contradicting you to your face ? that was hilarious.

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