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The peace process is dead, long live the peace process

Abbas stopped a few steps short of ‘going back to the UN,’ which he committed to not doing. So where does that leave Kerry’s peace talks?

President of the Palestinian National Authority Mahmoud Abbas at a joint press conference in Whitehall. (flickr / Cabinet Office CC)

President of the Palestinian National Authority Mahmoud Abbas at a joint press conference in Whitehall. (flickr / Cabinet Office CC)

The peace process is dead; long live the peace process.

That was the mood Tuesday night among journalists covering the Middle East as news broke that PLO Chairman Mahmoud Abbas was signing onto 15 international treaties – an act which he sort of said he wouldn’t do until next month.

Much of the media immediately assumed that Abbas was “going back to the UN,” or joining UN institutions, or doing something big. That he was saying, “enough is enough” about the peace process. Or that he was doing something.

The thing is, he didn’t actually do anything.

Eight months ago, as part of a package of goodwill gestures orchestrated by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, Abbas agreed not to join any international institutions for the following nine months – the duration Kerry set for the latest round of peace talks. In exchange, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu agreed to release 104 Palestinian prisoners who have been languishing in Israeli prisons since before the start of the Oslo peace process 20 years ago.

Read +972’s full coverage of the peace process

Abbas’s dramatic announcement on Tuesday was that, in response to Israel’s failure to release the fourth and final group of prisoners, he was signing letters of accession to 15 international treaties and conventions, not UN institutions. Noticeably absent from the list of treaties was the Rome Statute, which would give Palestine access to the International Criminal Court – the nightmare scenario Israel has been talking about for years.

Nevertheless, most people assumed that Abbas had broken his deal with Israel, or rather, with Kerry.

Hours after Abbas’s announcement, Kerry was asked about the Palestinian president’s decision to go rogue, and “go to the UN.”

“No, he’s not. He is not,” the secretary responded. “Let me make it absolutely clear: None of the agencies that President Abbas signed tonight involve the UN. None of them.”

When the deal was made last year many in the media misunderstood then, too. Due to the flawed presumptions, Kerry was forced to spell out the terms of the deal in a November joint interview with Israeli and Palestinian television.

“The agreement specifically was that there would be a release of the pre-Oslo prisoners, 104, who have been in prison now for many, many years, who would be released in exchange for the Palestinian Authority not proceeding to the UN during that period of time,” he said.

But back to Abbas.

Sending a letter of accession is not the same as signing a treaty. Abbas basically asked to sign the treaties, or at most, declared his intention to sign them.

In other words, Abbas didn’t actually do anything, certainly not blow up the peace process.

In an attempt to tone down the overeager analyses of what happened yesterday, the PLO Negotiations Affairs Department sent out a Q&A making very clear that the negotiations are not over.

In fact, they used those very words.

“No, this does not mean that negotiations process is over,” the document stated, adding, “we remained committed to the negotiations process and supported US efforts.”

So if nothing changed, what changed?

Abbas may not have done anything, but he did say something; and he said it loud and clear.

The message Abbas delivered Tuesday – and it may be significant that he delivered while wearing his PLO chairman hat and not that of the PA president – is that he will keep playing Kerry’s game, but he’s not playing nice anymore. He won’t break his commitments, but he’ll push their boundaries.

Although Abbas has built his entire contemporary political career on the idea of nonviolently seeking a two-state solution, primarily through negotiations with Israel, he probably doesn’t believe it will succeed any more than Naftali Bennett, Benjamin Netanyahu, Khaled Mashaal or Sheldon Adelson.

Make no mistake, Abbas will “go back to the UN” soon. When the current round of negotiations he is committed to are over – which could be later this month or at the end of this year, depending on if talks are extended – he will have to do something. But he hasn’t yet.

And so we’re left with an absurd situation in which Israel and Palestine both remain committed to peace talks in which neither side is talking to each other.

Diplomatic process in crisis: Staying away is Kerry’s best move
What ‘painful concessions’ are left for Palestinians to make?
Israel is reneging on its promise to release Palestinian prisoners

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    1. Bar

      Stupid us. And we all thought that Kerry suddenly canceled his latest trip to Ramallah because things were going exactly as expected.

      Maybe one of the Palestinian apologists who write for 972 can explain why you believe that releasing dozens of vicious murderers just so the Palestinians delay taking unilateral steps which violate Oslo (again) for nine months makes any sense? Did it not occur to any of you that the point of the negotiations was to negotiate…something the Palestinians have refused to do over these past months?

      Reply to Comment
      • Haifawi

        nah, the point of the negotiations was to jockey for position at the endgame. no one really expects negotiating to lead anywhere, at least not while the status quo remains the best option for Israel.
        so while Israel needs ‘negotiations’ in order to have better international relations with the civilized world, it also doesn’t really want to relinquish control over any territory or resources.
        i’m really pleasantly surprised at these developments, i honestly didn’t think abu mazen had the cunning (or incentive) to do this. i thought he was happy just being Israel’s quisling and preventing a popular intifada.

        Reply to Comment
      • Danny

        “…releasing dozens of vicious murderers…”

        You mean vicious murderers like Begin, Shamir and Eitan Livni (yes, THAT Livni)? They were all put in jail for acts of terrorism (in Shamir and Livni’s case, outright murder), but were released because keeping them locked up – as justifiable as it may have been – was too politically costly.

        Israel should have released thousands of old prisoners years ago, but that would have necessitated showing an ounce of decency and good faith towards the Palestinians, and we can’t we have that, can we?

        Reply to Comment
        • Kolumn9

          No, I think he means vicious murderers that have proudly admitted to murdering Israeli civilians and who receive from their people stipends, honor and awards for these deeds because that is their one and only claim to fame.

          What kind of good faith should be expressed for unrepentant murderers of civilians or for a society that continues to treat such acts as heroic?

          Reply to Comment
          • Danny

            “What kind of good faith should be expressed for unrepentant murderers of civilians or for a society that continues to treat such acts as heroic?”

            Your lack of self-awareness is striking. In case you hadn’t noticed, I was trying to show how similar to the Palestinians you are, in your glorification of unrepentant murderers.

            Reply to Comment
          • Kolumn9

            In case you haven’t noticed, you are trying to argue that unrepentant murderers of Israeli civilians should be released from prison.

            Reply to Comment
          • Kolumn9

            In case you haven’t noticed you are insisting that unrepentant murderers of civilians be freed from prison into the open arms of a society that praises them as heroes. There are two things wrong with this position. First that you think that unrepentant murderers should be freed. Second that the murderers of Israeli civilians (women and children included) are considered heroes among the Palestinians.

            Reply to Comment
        • Bar

          Amazing how your hatred of Israel has led you to this completely immoral abdication of any reasonable societal values.

          Reply to Comment
      • Kolumn9

        But that is the point, isn’t it? Apologists for the Palestinians don’t believe the Palestinians should need to negotiate or compromise. Nor do they believe the Palestinians have any need to actually honor agreements they signed. As far as they are concerned the Palestinians are making a major concession in not trying to murder Israeli civilians on a regular basis. And the only concession they are willing to have the Palestinians make is one of timing, in that they wish for Israel to be destroyed later and in stages instead of right now.

        Hence, when the Palestinians pronounce their utter rejection of the three basic principles of a future peace treaty, their apologists choose to ignore the obvious fact that it is the Palestinians that have over the past few months that have loudly and explicitly rejected the suggestions put forward by an American administration that might lead to peace.

        Reply to Comment
        • Haifawi

          You don’t seriously think the whole Jewish state nonsense is a ‘basic principle.’ It was pulled out of Netanyahu’s ass whole-cloth once the PA started recognizing Israel as an Israeli state.

          Reply to Comment
          • Kolumn9

            Of course it is a basic principle. Either the talks are about a Palestinian State arising next to a Jewish State or they are about some sort of strange peace in which the Palestinians effectively insist on their own state now while they prepare to continue the struggle to eliminate the Jewish State. The former is actual peace in which the conflict ends and both sides can move on. The latter is barely a cease-fire not worth the paper it is written on during which both sides prepare for the next conflict.

            It is a question of the entire framework of negotiations. The Palestinians want to talk about borders before accepting what those borders will partition. Either they accept that on the other side of the border will be a Jewish State or they wish to save that conflict for later. If that is the case then there is no good reason to grant them any additional power, assets, claims or territory they can use in that future conflict.

            Reply to Comment
          • Bar

            The only nonsense here is failing to mention that the demand for recognition as a Jewish state has been around for a couple of PMs before Netanyahu, or that this is the crux of the dispute.

            As for the Palestinians, they didn’t just begin to recognize anything. Supposedly, they accepted Israel as Israel two decades ago.

            The Israeli demand for Jewish state recognition is actually very simple because it basically says to the other side, “stop playing games, this is real peace we want.”

            Of course, we now have Abbas saying he won’t even sign off on an “end of conflict” statement, which makes the entirety of Palestinian claims they have ever meant to come to a final agreement an obvious lie.

            Reply to Comment
        • shachalnur

          It’s good you don’t understand what’s going on.

          After Abbas’ little threat about the ICC panic came over the Chosen Holocaustionists,and now the cause of all desperation are occupied Palestinians ,a people without land and without any MSM,Big Banker cover.

          So Hasbara Central has to change course quickly.

          This one I picked up from Times of Israel;(Daniel Frank)

          “The Palestinians current strategy is to upset(sic) Israel.Whether it is through causing chisms amongst Jews,alienating Israel internationally,or making life harder for Israel on the ground,it is very obvious this is the Palestinians goal.”

          So the Palestinians are to blame for chisms amongst Jews,Israel’s isolation internationally,that life is tough in Israel,and that your hair is falling out.

          The Palestinians are to blame for Judaism’s chisms,Israel’s isolation and all your daily problems “on the ground”.
          Is that the order from Hasbara Central?

          Good luck with that.

          Reply to Comment
      • Johnboy

        “why you believe that releasing dozens of vicious murderers just so the Palestinians delay taking unilateral steps which violate Oslo (again) for nine months makes any sense? ”

        Well, actually, it makes perfect sense, and on several levels

        1) Israel already agreed to release these prisoners back in 1995, when it signed the Taba (a.k.a. Oslo II) agreement.

        And then reneged, meaning that (doin’ the sums…) Israel has been reneging on a prior agreement for some 19 years now.

        Abbas was adamant that he considered it pointless to “negotiate” an “agreement” with Israel unless Israel could show that it had the hitherto-unseen ability to keep its word.

        What better way than to make Israel live up to a commitment that it had been reneging on for nearly two decades….

        2) These are prisoners, and they were arrested because of a conflict between these two protagonists.

        It is accepted practice that such prisoners are released upon “end of conflict”.

        So what better way for Israel to signal that it is prepared to sign onto an “end of conflict” than for Israel to start releasing those prisoners….

        And what better way for Israel to show that it isn’t serious about “end of conflict” than for it to agree (again) to release these prisoners only to renege (again) upon that agreement?

        Watch what Israel *does*, don’t pay any heed to what Israel *says*.

        Reply to Comment
    2. Felix Reichert

      Oh no, the Palestinian leadership broke violated the Oslo accords, something the Israeli leadership has NEVER done.

      Come on Bar…

      Reply to Comment
    3. François

      This article is based on a miscomprehension of international law.

      “Sending a letter of accession is not the same as signing a treaty. Abbas basically asked to sign the treaties, or at most, declared his intention to sign them. In other words, Abbas didn’t actually do anything, certainly not blow up the peace process.”

      To become party to treaties, you dont have to “sign” them, but to accede to them. And you accede to a treaty by…sending an official letter of accession to the deposary state or organ (for instance, Switzerland for the Geneva Convention and Secretary General of the UN for the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights).

      Reply to Comment
    4. Ken Kelso

      It is now time for the Obama administration to accept the reality that the PA has evolved into a criminal society. How else to define a regime which brainwashes kindergarten-age children into believing that Israel and the Jews are evil parasites, and continuously calls for the elimination of the Jewish state? This demonization of Israel is reinforced daily by the mullahs in the mosques, and by the PA-controlled media.

      In addition, terrorists are sanctified, treated as heroes and awarded state pensions. There are obvious similarities between the Nazi brainwashing of the German people and what Arafat and now Abbas have imposed on the Palestinians.

      Everyone should read this article by Frimet Roth who lost her daughter in the Sbarros massacre.
      She describes everything right on the money.

      Injustice Anywhere Is a Threat to Justice Everywhere: A Mother’s Plea
      Frimet Roth
      April 2, 2014

      One oppressively hot August morning, my daughter Malki set off with her best friend Michal to decorate with welcome signs the bedroom of another friend returning from vacation.

      Afterward, Malki called me to say that she and Michal were heading to the city center. There she would catch a bus to a summer camp counselors’ meeting in another Jerusalem suburb. “I love you” we told each other – as we usually ended our conversations. It promised to be a day of giving and sharing like every day was for Malki.

      Thirteen years later, I still love her and pine for her dreadfully. But now, the only way for me to express that is to seek justice for her murder.

      Because that same hot August morning another young woman, Ahlam Tamimi, set off on a very different type of mission. A twenty year old self-described journalism student, she took two weapons – a 10 kg. bomb and an eager suicide bomber. They proceeded to the Sbarro pizza restaurant which Tamimi had scouted days earlier. Jewish women and children frequent it at lunchtime and Tamimi liked that. As this embodiment of evil would later brag, she hungered for child victims and the more the better.

      Malki and Michal had detoured from their intended route to eat there too. They were among the fifteen men, women and children who perished in the explosion.

      Today, Malki and Michal lie buried side by side, while their murderer, who smiled happily to learn her tally of dead children, is free and thriving in Jordan. She frequently travels in the Arab world to incite adoring crowds to follow in her footsteps.

      In my country, my husband and I are not welcome to decry this. Parents of murdered children are hailed as heroes when they declare that they want the murderer to go unpunished. Whether for the sake of a prisoner “swap,” to prolong the negotiations with the PA or, as the cliche goes, “to promote peace.” Waiving our right to justice is considered the noble, patriotic thing to do.

      Our quest for justice, for a life sentence for Tamimi – there is no capital punishment here – has invited accusations that we are merely vengeful.

      Yet nothing will convince us that freeing murderers is an acceptable, integral part of any peace process.

      Malki’s murderer was released in October 2011, the beneficiary of another terrorists-walk-free deal. Some would say we should have learned to live with that reality.

      Yet, with each release of terrorist murderers – tried, convicted and unrepentant – my government thrusts a fresh dagger into my heart and conveys the message again and again: ”Your child was not really murdered. And your child’s killer does not really deserve to be punished.”

      True, my leaders have been subjected to inordinate pressure to free terrorist murderers from the West, and in particular, from the US. Threats and rewards have been dangled before prime minister Bibi Netanyahu to elicit from him a travesty of justice that they themselves would never consider.

      We saw that hypocrisy in sharp relief when terrorists who had not even been tried yet but were strongly suspected of murders of American soldiers were recently released from Afghani prisons. The United States government was outraged. The US embassy criticized the releases as “deeply regrettable,” a move that could lead to further violence in Afghanistan. The US military in Afghanistan warned that “release of these dangerous individuals poses a threat to U.S., Coalition and Afghan National Security Forces, as well as the Afghan population”.

      It is a tight spot into which our prime minister has been rammed. Still, that is a lame excuse for releasing murderers imprisoned in Israel. Netanyahu holds the keys to their cells and the decision to use them is his and his alone. For a politician who has cast himself as a tough talker, Netanyahu has, in this instance, chosen the softest route available.

      But it was a carefully-made choice.

      He is a seasoned and savvy politician who knows his constituency well. In both the left and the right camps, these releases are ‘acceptable’. Terrorists are deemed currency for him to dole out whenever he sees fit.

      Unspecified calculations, secret strategies, and the deepest wisdom have been attributed to Netanyahu by his supporters to rationalize his odious actions. And so it has been left predominantly to the victims themselves to take up the fight.

      It has been a fruitless challenge.

      Our prime minister has neither deigned to meet with any of us nor even to respond to our written pleas, although he did say publicly in 2011 that he had sent all of us personal letters of explanation. Surprisingly none of those personal letters ever reached any of us.

      The media have played no small part in pressuring Israel. We have all been subjected to sob-stories about ex- prisoners who either maintain their innocence or their rehabilitation to garner favor. Gullible journalists like the New York Times’ Jodi Rudoren are ready willing and able to oblige with sympathetic pieces. Her most recent specimen, “Remaking a Life After Years in an Israeli Prison,” was particularly abhorrent.

      Where are the pieces about the terrorists like Ahlam Tamimi who declare “I have no regrets” and who return to terrorism – as nearly 50% of them do?

      Many families of victims are incensed, pained and fearful of the consequences these releases entail. Some of us have noted that the conduct of the PA, of its chief Mahmoud Abbas and of the entire Palestinian people does not justify a gesture of this sort. They have pointed out that the celebrations and glory that are lavished on released murderers contradict their claims of a desire for peace and rejection of terrorism. They remind us of the high rate of recidivism.

      But those are not the strongest arguments.

      There is really only one constant, immutable, irrefutable flaw in these releases. They are unjust. Plain and simple: undeniably unjust. They isolate one category of murders from the rest and declare them less significant, less tragic, less criminal, less intolerable.

      Justice, as we all know, is blind. Or at least it should be. It should be blind to the race, religion, creed and gender of both the murderer and his victim.

      These releases contravene a basic tenet of any democratic state. It is time for Netanyahu to regain his moral compass, turn back the clock, and reinstate the inviolability of Israel’s judiciary.

      This time, Netanyahu needs to show some spine and say ‘no’ to the impending prisoner release.

      Frimet Roth, a native New Yorker, is a freelance writer in Jerusalem. Her daughter Malki was murdered at the age of 15 in the Sbarro restaurant bombing in 2001. With her husband Arnold, she founded the Malki Foundation (www.malkifoundation.org) in their daughter’s name. It provides concrete support for Israeli families of all faiths who care at home for a special-needs child. The title of this op-ed is derived from Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963

      Reply to Comment
      • Felix Reichert

        It is now time for the Obama administration to accept the reality that the Isreali government has evolved into a criminal society. How else to define a regime which brainwashes kindergarten-age children into believing that Palestinians and the Arabs are evil parasites, and continuously calls for the elimination of the Arab’s right for self-determination? This demonization of Arabs is reinforced daily by the rabbis in the synagogues, and by the government-controlled and military-censored media.

        In addition, terrorists are sanctified, treated as heroes and awarded state pensions.

        There are obvious similarities between the Nazi brainwashing of the German people and what Sharon and now Netanyahu have imposed on the Israelis.

        Reply to Comment
    5. Ken Kelso

      Danny your totally correct what your saying.
      6% of Fatah’s budget goes to Palestinian mass murderers of Israeli civilians.
      And the writers on 972mag support these Palestinian murderers.

      PA spends 6% of its budget paying Palestinians in Israeli jails, families of suicide bombers.
      Hamas terrorist who orchestrated 2002 Park Hotel massacre, in which 30 Israelis died, gets $3,000 a month, Channel 2 reports; bomb-maker jailed for 67 killings gets $1,000
      September 3, 2012

      Reply to Comment
    6. Perry Cox

      Hey Dr. Kelso, take your muffin and go home. You’re retired.

      Reply to Comment
    7. Ken Kelso

      Danny you are a complete fool.

      There is a difference between terrorism and defense of innocents.
      Israel targets terrorists, Israeli civilian deaths are the Palestinians goal.
      Big difference

      Hamas and the PLO derive their legitimacy by killing Israeli secretaries and high schoolers.

      The Palestinians have raised an entire generation to believe that the highest aspiration in life is to kill Jews. The Palestinians are engaged in an unremitting campaign of targetted murder of women and children.

      When the Palestinians massacre Israeli school children on buses, and babies in baby carriages, they celebrate. They have raised an entire generation to believe that the highest cultural and religious value is the massacre of Jews. Through the Arabs hate, an entire generation has lost the capacity for humanity.

      ISRAEL which is defending itself against Pan-Arabism, Arab imperialism and Arabization of the Middle East – that is the “problem you don’t like.

      The real problem is global Arab/Moslem insistence to spread hate, violence, wars, terrorism, lies, false accusations against Jews and reducing Jews to subhumans or second class citizens – slaves or servants – without any human rights.

      Virtually all of the Palestinians killed during these past 13 years were suicide bombers, terrorists killed in gun battles, dissidents lynched by fellow Arabs for their beliefs, women and children used as human shields by Hamas and Fatah” – and yes, dozens of people who were caught in the line of fire by this umpteen terrorist war started by these terrorist Arabs.

      Palestinians should get one thing into their heads: the world does not revolve around them. They share the blame for their situation, because they always wanted everything and never wanted to compromise. First and foremost that NOBODY, and least Israel owes them anything.

      The Palestinians continually initiate the violence. The Israelis have not fired the first shots.
      Do the Palestinians expect not to be fired back on? Its ok for them to blow up Israeli school kids on buses, shopping malls, disco’s, pizzeria’s and Passover seders.

      Someone please explain to me how the Israelis could possibly live next to such a violent people.

      I personally don’t see how it can be done at this point. All I see is the Palestinians provoking war and using any method they can to get all of Israel.

      It seems that after 5 decades of terror and murder against Israel.
      The Palestinians might have realized that this campaign of terrorism and rejectionism has failed.

      By the way, how many Muslims have been killed by Muslims this week in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Bahrain, Lebanon, Somalia, Yemen, Nigeria?
      How many have been killed by Jews? Numbers please.

      Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        How many have been killed by Jews?

        I strongly object to this way of formulating,unless you meant”Israeli’s”.

        Every day there are around 20.000 children world wide dying of hunger, thirst,and avoidable disease.

        In the developed world it’s not much different:

        Authism in children
        non-existent in 1960
        1 in 10.000 in 1980
        1 in 50 in 2014.

        Cancer in children:
        non-existent in 1960
        Since 1970 cancer in children raised by 36.000 %

        It’s called Eugenics,and is financed and organized by Big Banks,Big Science and Big Pharma,and if you really want to I’ll give you the list of Jews involved in that.

        There’s too many of them,so mind your words,it might come back to haunt you one day when you ask yourself why there’s so many sick children.

        Reply to Comment
        • Vadim

          1. As you probably know, there’s a vast difference between the strict definition of autism used in the 60s and the permissive “autism spectrum” terminology used now. No wonder there’s a “rise”
          2. Cancer is different in several ways. Many diseases formerly not diagnosed properly are now attributed to various types of cancer. I don’t know if our world is more carcinogenic than the one we had 50 years ago. It’s interesting to read academic papers on the subject.
          3. What’s not interesting is unfounded silly conspiracy theories.
          4. Another silly notion is that I have to share a blame because other Jews have (supposedly) done something bad. I am expected to take responsibility for my actions, my vote and the decisions of my goverment, not
          the decisions of other Jews. The same goes for Arabs and everyone else. Implying otherwise is going full retard, don’t go full retard.

          Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Your arguments are a joke to anybody with two braincells functioning,and it’s the usual Eugenics Hasbara.

            Dr,Eisenberg,the “inventor” of ADHD admitted that “ADHD is a prime example of an invented disease.”

            1 in 3 people alive now will be hit by cancer during their lives,and the numbers are getting worse every year.

            Children are being born with tumors in their heads,and that’s because of a changing diagnosis and definition?

            You also have an explanation for “The Ringworm affair”,”The Missing Yemeni Babies”,and Depo Proveera for Jewish Ethiopian women?

            Actually the one behind most of this Eugenics science is Rockefeller,not a Jew.

            I said it’s alarming so many Jewish scientists are collaborating,they know exactly what they are doing.

            Are they just in it for the money?

            Reply to Comment
          • Vadim

            Eugenics Hasbara is a good one. What’s next? Talmudic Eugenics?

            Please, take your crappy copy-paste jewwatch style nonsense to a place where it’ll be more appreciated. Places where hatred and prejudice are more important than facts or common sense. There are many such internet sites, many lovely neo-nazi rallies in many countries and some wonderful conferences in Iran.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Gay Barry’s Science Szar Cass Sunstein(“Ecoscience”,”Nudge”)just wrote a new book for you about conspiracy theories,find your Chosen Eugenics Hasbara there,because your arguments are pityfull.

            How did he find the time with this reptile(Sam Power) to coach?

            No answer to the Ringworm affair,Missing Yemeni babies,Depo Proveera,Fluoride in tapwater,Oral Polio Vaccines?

            Just ad hominem,impotent shill and the usual unsourced blabla.

            No surprises there.

            People will read what I write because it’s new to them and they care about their children,while your boring lies and ad hominem have become obsolete.

            Reply to Comment
          • Vadim

            My arguments were not pitiful, as I did not provide any. I’m not arguing with you, nor am I trying to convince you. Using facts or reason with you is useless, just like with a religious person.

            There was also nothing ad hominem in what I wrote (do you even know what that means?). There was nothing outsourced in what I said and not lies as well.

            People with a tiny interest in the surrounding world are already familiar with most of the cases you describe. They are rather widely known.

            Most people simply don’t interpret them in this bizarre conspiracy theory way. Most of us have served in the IDF, or know someone that did. Most of us know people that serve in secret governmental agencies. A secret here and there aside, most people know how these organizations work, because the people are the same. Knowing that, conspiracy theories seem very silly. All conspiracy theories suffer from this fallacy, they attribute endless power and resources to certain organizations and in the same breath provide examples of idiotic behavior which only those that believe in the theory seem to see.

            That’s just not how the world operates. It’s always a game of many interests and powers.

            People may read what you say and think that since there’s no reply, there’s nothing to say. This possibility angers me.

            While your seeming care for children is touching, I don’t think your words, theories or the actions they promote improve the world. I think you are driven by hate and your words promote it. I also think it pushes aside real issues.

            Again, I’m not trying to convince you. I don’t give a damn about what you think, I just hate seeing these wacky comments when I’m looking for something thought provoking in the comment section.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Thank you for your clarity,

            History is full of theories that turned out to be fact,as in conspiracy fact.

            You are clever enough to know that if you are looking for “thought provoking” comments,this is ,with all due respect,not the place to spend hours answering silly anti-Semites and self-hating Jews.

            If you really know the facts,like you claim,you wouldn’t talk about “secret governmental agencies” or “certain organizations”,because I never mentioned anything like that.

            That’s what you made of it,on purpose or out of ignorance.

            In case it’s on purpose;

            I hope you don’t mind I will keep reacting to the really ugly stuff you’re pushing here for your Pharao?

            Reply to Comment
          • Vadim

            “That’s what you made of it,on purpose or out of ignorance”

            I didn’t make anything. Those organizations are popular in many conspiracy theories, that’s why I gave them as an example. Nothing more.

            I’m not pushing anything for anyone but I’m very interested in what you consider an “ugly” thing I’ve said.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur


            Your defense of Eugenics ,for example.

            You know what you are talking about but you give the “ugly” version,the version for ignorant sheep on their way to the slaughter.

            In theory it’s possible you don’t know enough,if so, for the sake of your own health, educate yourself,it’s real.

            You said some ugly stuff on past threads,and I point them out whenever you do,and will continue doing it.

            Reply to Comment
          • Vadim

            I was not defending Eugenics, it’s a conspiracy theory and I treat it as such.

            While education is always welcome, we’re no speaking about the same one. You’re describing an education which is a akin to studying the holy scriptures more deeply. There’s a basic belief and your education is finding or interpreting facts to suit that belief.

            Think for a second, what data would convince you that Eugenics, in the sense you think of it, is not real?

            Your patronizing tone and terminology is also very similar to those used by religious people. People that think only they see the truth, that others are ignorant sheep in need of “education”. Maybe it is you that is wrong?

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      • Ray Packham

        I remember the words of an old song from the sixties or seventies…”Oh not again Ken !” Seems the words still apply today. I have never read such a load of unmitigated Zionist twaddle….but par for the course I suppose.

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    8. shachalnur

      Long live the peace process!

      After decades of the US making sure a solution will stay out of reach(Strauss’ Chaos Theory),Israel and the PA are on the verge of kicking the US out of their faces.

      Peace is easy to achieve when it is made between Israeli’s and Palestinians,without interference from London-Banker controlled US and Europe.

      And all these new houses and new settlemants are a great bargaining chip to make a lot of Palestinians forfeit their “Right of Return”,once the imported Fascist Khazars will run back to the US ,instead of living in peace with these horrible dark-skinned,dark-eyed Palestinian Semites as their neighbours.

      The only aim right now is to get the US out of the equation,so peace will be reached within a few months.

      But it’s very difficult to disinvite the rich uncle that shows up unwanted for every birthday,unless you catch him fondling the kids in the shed.

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    9. Average American

      “Peace process” is a distraction, a diversion. Israel was founded by Zionism and still runs by Zionism. Zionism says The Land Of Israel is much bigger than the current State of Israel. Zionism says The Land Of Israel is owed to The Jews, is for them to grow into, and The Land Of Israel includes Cyprus, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, half of Iraq, a quarter of Saudi Arabia, and the Sinai. This is Israel’s goal and purpose. Palestinians are just the first people to be displaced, West Bank is just the first lebensraum.

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    10. Zionqueen

      Poor little baby- kerry is frustrated. He is lucky they don’t kick him of Israel and lock the doors for the stunt he and his boss tried to pull. Taing a hostage is not cool, nor is blackmailing us to release 400 murderers- people that would be executed in the US. Obama sunk lower than low thinking he could use Pollard as a human shield. Did he really think he could get a way with this. He reminds me of Haniya of Hamas, when he had Shalit abducted and used him as a hostage. Obama is nothing but a terrorist. He should be careful he could find himself at the ICC one day soon 🙂

      Abbas we already know is a terrorist and murderer, remember Munich? There are 5,000 other charges against him waiting to be filed. He should be dragged into a Jewish court put in a glass booth and charged with murder.

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