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The only way to stop stone throwing is to end the occupation

If Israel was serious about restoring security to its capital, it would recognize the Palestinian claim to East Jerusalem and find a way for all residents to live in dignity.

Trying to make good on his promise to restore quiet in Jerusalem, Prime Minister Netanyahu and his cabinet approved an amendment to Israel’s penal code on Sunday, which would prescribe up to 20 years in prison for someone caught throwing stones at a vehicle (and 10 without having to prove intent to cause harm).

Currently, Palestinians convicted in Israeli civil courts of throwing stones receive around two years in jail, so if this is enforced, it would be a significant increase in degree of severity. While in theory such a law would apply to Israeli citizens, the country’s history of discrimination and granting settler impunity, it is hard to imagine Israeli Jews will be more than nominally affected. While the amendment still needs to pass through committee and three Knesset votes, the message of the bill is clear: a Palestinian caught throwing a stone will go away for a long, long time.

Palestinian youth throw stones during a solidarity protest with the hunger striking Palestinian prisoners jailed in Israeli prisons, outside the Ofer military prison, February 15, 2013. (photo: Activestills)

Palestinian youth throw stones during a solidarity protest with the hunger striking Palestinian prisoners jailed in Israeli prisons, outside the Ofer military prison, February 15, 2013. (photo: Activestills)

While the potential law would apply to all citizens of Israel, it is clearly directed at Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem — occupied, annexed and ruled under Israeli civil law. A similar law is already in place in the West Bank, which under direct Israeli military occupation is governed by Israeli military law. This strengthens the notion that Israel is looking to treat East Jerusalem Palestinians more like it treats West Bank Palestinians.

Whether or not the bill goes through, the Israeli government’s approach to the intensifying unrest in Jerusalem is clearly designed to, as Netanyahu put it, “[take] vigorous action against terrorists and those who throw stones, fire bombs and fireworks…in order to restore quiet and security throughout Jerusalem. I have ordered that massive reinforcements be brought in [to Jerusalem] and that additional means be used in order to ensure law and order in Israel’s capital.”

The Israeli security establishment sincerely believes that it will be able to put a stop to Palestinian resistance by placing more Palestinians — many of them minors — behind bars. While that may solve the problem in the immediate short-term (and even that is doubtful, as riots have only increased despite the arrest of over 700 people since the start of the summer), history and common sense show it will do nothing for the security of Israeli Jews in the long-term.

Since the First Intifada in the late 1980s, thousands of Palestinian men have sat in Israeli jails — many of them more than once. This has not proven to be a long-term deterrent of Palestinian resistance – whether armed or unarmed. Arguably the most popular leader of the Palestinian people is Marwan Barghouti, serving five life sentences in Israeli prison for his involvement in armed Palestinian resistance and terror. Muataz Hejazi, who allegedly shot Rabbi Yehuda Glick at point blank range last week, spent 11 years in Israeli prison, and according to reports, his violent behavior only got worse during his imprisonment. Abd al-Rahman al-Shaloudi, who rammed his car into a group of people at a light rail station in Jerusalem, killing a three-month-old and a woman a week earlier, also did time in Israeli prison.

Palestinian youth throw stones during clashes in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Ras al Amud, with the Aqsa Mosque seen in the background. (Photo by Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Palestinian youth throw stones during clashes in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Ras al Amud, with the Aqsa Mosque seen in the background. (Photo by Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

While I am in no way condoning these acts of violence, Israeli authorities have not convinced me that what they are doing will bring any calm or safety to Jerusalem or any other territory under its control. They certainly don’t seem to be taking into account the adverse effects putting young Palestinians in Israeli jail for years for throwing a single stone has on them and their families.

There is no reason to think Palestinians will give up on their claims to East Jerusalem, to self-determination, to freedom and human rights after being dealt an even heavier hand by the entity occupying them. It has been nearly half a century and they haven’t done so yet. It’s pretty obvious that compromise, sacrifice and agreement are the only way to put a stop to it once and for all.

Israeli journalist Amira Hass, who wrote an op-ed in Haaretz in April 2013 explaining the act of stone throwing and defending the Palestinian right to resist occupation, said it best:

Often hurling stones is borne of boredom, excessive hormones, mimicry, boastfulness and competition. But in the inner syntax of the relationship between the occupier and the occupied, stone-throwing is the adjective attached to the subject of “We’ve had enough of you, occupiers.”

In an interview with Democracy Now!, she went on to explain why it is so problematic to see Palestinians as violent and Israelis as victims:

Any hegemonic group, sees its hegemony, and the violence it uses, as self-evident, as a natural thing. And we do everything possible to protect this hegemony…Palestinians have tried many ways, diplomatic ways and others to resist Israeli domination and it has not succeeded. Stone throwing is a message, and the Israelis don’t listen to it. Twenty-five years ago in the first Intifada, Israelis did listen – they did understand it’s a message — not in order to kill or hit somebody but to tell, you are unwelcome visitors in our midst.

If Israel was serious and pragmatic about “restoring security to Jerusalem,” it would once and for all recognize the Palestinians’ claim to East Jerusalem as their capital, find ways to end the occupation and find a way for everyone to live in the city equally. At the very least it would invest in East Jerusalem’s infrastructure and schools — even while continuing to be the occupying force. But it is doing neither. Instead, it is deepening its control and amping up its means of violence, whose only realistic outcome is more stone throwing. That will lead to more arrests, which, based on experience, will only lead to more violence.

Related:
Photos of the month: The holy city nears its boiling point
The New York Times investigates Palestinian stone throwing
Jerusalem expert attacked: ‘No rock can move me to hate’

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    COMMENTS

    1. dxomplwz

      Wrong. Another solution is destroying the Aqsa mosque and dome of the rock and waiting out the storm.

      Reply to Comment
      • Disgusted

        Wow… You think Al Aqsa is going to to rid of them? You’re so stupid. What are you going to do for teh christian Palestinians? Destroy Jesus tomb – just try that.

        What curse it has become to be Jewish. With people like you in our lives.

        Reply to Comment
    2. Richard

      The only way to stop stone throwing…is to enable rocket throwing. Great cost/benefit analysis!

      Reply to Comment
      • bar

        Precisely.

        Of course, there is another way and that is to put some of the throwers away for a few years and apply the penalties to 16 year olds and up.

        Reply to Comment
      • Kolumn8

        “The only way to stop knife attacks on Israelis is to bring in Arafat who will establish order in the Palestinian cities”

        “The only way to stop mortars on Sderot is to withdraw from Gaza”

        “The only way to stop suicide bombings is to sign an agreement with Arafat”

        “The way to remove Hezbollah as a threat is to withdraw from Lebanon”.

        And on and on and on and on. At some point one would have hoped that the left would accept that at least this sort of logic doesn’t sell because it has been disproven, but unfortunately they keep going and wonder why no one in Israel listens to them.

        Reply to Comment
        • Pedro X

          Israel withstood rocket attacks, mortars, car bombings, suicide bombing, suitcase bombings, refrigerator bombings, knife attacks, shooting attacks, improvised explosives bombings, Molotov cocktail attacks, motor vehicle attacks and others. It is not going to give in and give up the eastern part of Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria on some mistaken notion that stone throwing has to be stopped by capitulating to Palestinian demands.

          What Israel needs is to up its presence in Jerusalem and arrest the guilty parties and put them in prison. Israel should continue building in the Jerusalem envelope to tighten its grip on Jerusalem. This means start issuing building permits instead of announcing plans for buildings which are years away from commencement of building.

          Reply to Comment
          • Kolumn8

            I know. And then these leftists threaten us that if we don’t capitulate to the stone throwing the Palestinians will get “more extreme”. Because then surely we will break and so lets save the bother. As if the Palestinians haven’t already tried all possible violence against us and failed miserably in breaking us. The only thing they managed to do was to make us more brutal with every iteration of violence.

            I agree. Israel should go ahead and unilaterally redraw the lines in Jerusalem to exclude neighborhoods like Shuafat while undertaking massive construction around the old city and neighborhoods just north East and North. At the same time it should immediately proceed to build E1 and Givat HaMatos and permanently cut off Jerusalem from any future Palestinian State. Let the Europeans and Americans react whatever ridiculous way they want. They will get over it. At this point they are exhausting their contempt on construction in neighborhoods that will stay in Israel under any possible agreement, so lets at least give them something real to talk about. Then, when they come back down to earth we can conduct negotiations on the basis of reality.

            Reply to Comment
      • Yeah, right

        Richard: “The only way to stop stone throwing…Great cost/benefit analysis!”

        But still not half as impressive as that leap of logic of yours.

        Reply to Comment
        • bar

          Right, because some people wish we didn’t have the evidence Gaza presents every day. Nope, nothing to see there, move along.

          Reply to Comment
          • Yeah, right

            bar: “Right, because some people wish we didn’t have the evidence Gaza presents every day.”

            What I see is this: the “evidence Gaza presents” is that locking a prison down and then throwing away the key leads to…. anarchy and desperation.

            Funny that. Who would have thought that consigning people to a dystopian future leads to a…. dystopia.

            bar, you are a poster-child for what is wrong with Zionism, because *your* idea of an “end to occupation” is not what anyone else would recognize as an “end to occupation”.

            bar: “Nope, nothing to see there, move along.”

            Yes, that does appear to be the oppressors reaction when people criticise his monstering of the oppressed.

            Nice to see that some things never change….

            Reply to Comment
          • bar

            The excuses are irrelevant. The evidence remains valid: Israel cedes land to Palestinians; Palestinians use the ceded land to launch attacks on Israel that only grow in number, quality and danger over time.

            If Israel leaves Judea and Samaria, the same will happen. And guess what? The Palestinian apologia crowd will blame Israel for the attacks. The problem is that ceding this territory is far more dangerous than ceding Gaza.

            The Palestinians have sought to keep this conflict going on a low boil for as long as possible. They have achieved their dream. They have presented an insoluble dilemma to Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Yeah, right

            Bar: “The excuses are irrelevant.”

            Context is everything, bar.

            Bar: “The evidence remains valid: Israel cedes land to Palestinians; Palestinians use the ceded land to launch attacks on Israel that only grow in number, quality and danger over time.”

            The state of Israel has not “ceded” any land to the Palestinians, ever.

            Even now Netanyahu will not seriously negotiate a final-status agreement with the Palestinians, since such an agreement will force him to concede that some of this territory belongs to a Palestinian state.

            That. He. Will. Not. Do.

            He might just be willing to agree that they can have “autonomy” within a stateless territory forever controlled by Israel.

            Maybe.

            But definitely not “a state”, because that will mean agreeing that some of this is “Palestinian territory”.

            And he will never concede that, precisely because he believes to the very core of his soul that all the territory from the river to the sea is Mine! Mine! Mine!

            Reply to Comment
          • bar

            Israel has not ceded land?

            Gaza is Palestinian. Israel controlled it entirely until 2005.

            That’s without getting into, you know, ceding the Sinai or leaving Southern Lebanon…

            At the end of the day, you have no credible response to what I’ve written other than to write more attacks on Israel. Face it, Israel has ceded land to Palestinians and got attacked. Israel offered peace and got attacked. It offered the Palestinians statehood and got attacked.

            And now, since the situation remains in limbo, the Palestinians apologists want to blame Israel. You might convince some ignorant folks, but that’s about it.

            Reply to Comment
          • Yeah, right

            bar: “Israel has not ceded land?”

            Israel has not “ceded” a single inch of territory to the Palestinians.

            To do that is to say “Yeah, OK, I agree that this territory belongs to you”.

            And no Israeli govt has ever conceded that point regarding any of the territory that made up the (ex)Mandate for Palestine.

            bar: “Gaza is Palestinian. Israel controlled it entirely until 2005.”

            And in int’l humanitarian law that “effective control” is referred to as “authority”, and it is axiomatic that every military occupier possesses “authority” over an occupied territory.

            So agreeing to hand that “authority” over to someone else signifies only that the occupation has ended, nothing more.

            The word “cede” means something quite different, and it is the mirror-image of the word “annex” i.e. to say that Israel has “ceded” territory to the Palestinians is the same as saying that Israel has agreed that the Palestinians can “annex” that same territory.

            And, so sorry, Israel has never agreed to that proposition.

            Not once.
            Not ever.

            Reply to Comment
    3. Tomer

      If the penalty of stone throwing was immediate repatriation to Jordan,……. there would be no more stone throwing.

      Problem Solved

      Reply to Comment
      • Ray

        How about immediate repatriation of Israeli Jews to Manhattan, Miami and Martha’s Vineyard? That might work as well.

        Reply to Comment
      • Ray

        Ethnic cleansing isn’t so fun when it’s happening to you, is it?

        Reply to Comment
      • Yeah, right

        That’s a war crime, Tomer.

        The occupying power can arrest and incarcerate protected persons who attack the occupier.

        Sure, it can do that.

        But an occupying power is prohibited from forcibly transferring or deporting any protected person to anywhere outside of an occupied territory.

        What you are suggesting amounts to exactly that, and so it is a war crime.

        Protected persons have rights, and one of those rights is this: if they do the crime then they do the time, but they have to do it **there**, not **elsewhere**.

        Reply to Comment
      • Bryan

        Now you are talking great sense. Expulsion to Jordan would of course be a war-crime and an act of ethnic-cleansing, but repatriation would be a completely different matter. Returning the refugees to the homes from which they were expelled in 1948 and 1967 is a far-sighted, statesmanlike proposal, and one which would as you say solve the problem. Well said Sir!

        Reply to Comment
        • Brian

          Spoken like Al Capone’s slick lawyer. “Yes Sir Mr. Capone committed a wee but of tax evasion Sir, but no Sir Your Honor, Mr. Capone is not involved in any organized crime, no Sir Mr. Capone is a businessman!”

          Reply to Comment
          • Yeah, right

            No, it’s nothing like a defence lawyer.

            Bryon is pointing out – correctly – that “repatriating” Palestinians to Jordan isn’t “repatriation” at all.

            To “repatriate” a Palestine is to return them to the homes from which they were ejected.

            You know, “right of return” and all that…..

            Reply to Comment
    4. If the result of endless aggression and occupation is the cause of stone throwing, then the prosecution by the Hague for the state of Israel’s war crimes, occupation, land theft, house demolition, extrajudicial executions, imprisonment of children, extermination of entire families, forced “diet”, deprivation of water and electricity, etc., would probably result in no more stone throwing. Problem solved!

      Reply to Comment
    5. First line not right and should read
      If the endless aggression and occupation is the cause of stone throwing, then prosecution by the Hague for the state of Israel’s war crimes, occupation, land theft, house demolition, extrajudicial executions, imprisonment of children, extermination of entire families, forced “diet”, deprivation of water and electricity, etc., would probably result in no more stone throwing. Problem solved!

      Reply to Comment
    6. Bruce Gould

      It’s impossible to understand the Palestinian experience without understanding the home demolitions, but about .02% of Americans have even heard about it. Nutshell version: building a house in Israel or the West Bank requires a permit but the zoning committees are controlled by Jews, so few permits are given to Palestinians. Inevitably, they build new rooms or houses as their families expand, which means that at any time the soldiers and the bulldozers can come: there’s no warning, they give you 30 minutes to remove your possessions and then your house is rubble. Jeff Halper (who I’ve talked to in person about this) estimates that since 67 around 28,000 Palestinian houses have been demolished, excluding those demolitions that were related to other crimes or terrorism. By my estimates Israel has made at least 150,000 people homeless since then. Imagine yourself to be a Palestinian in 67 watching your own society being physically dismantled – keep in mind the chronology, the intifadas and so on didn’t happen until this process was far along.

      Reply to Comment
    7. utemia

      Israel has created a perfect self fulfilling prophesy in which every stone that is thrown, and every teenager that ends up for a decade in prison for that stone turns into a bitter and potentially violent person that’s likely to snap under the strain, which legitimizes the draconian use of force, which in turn causes people to throw stones because that’s pretty much the only way there is to vent frustration.

      It’s extremely cynical, but very effective on Israel’s security forces’ part. These people don’t want peace with the Palestinians, they want reasons that justify not engaging in negotiations, and what serves better than “national security” issues?

      Reply to Comment
      • I concur, but think it has come to be truly believed. Often, its the next generation which can deal with the abuses and hardships endured by their parents. What is happening here is that there is no next generation. The Israeli State response, if anything, is making the next generation even more abused than their parents were.

        Reply to Comment
        • Kolumn8

          “It” has come to be believed because the Palestinians have consistently been attacking us before there was a state, before 1967, before the settlements, before the occupation, before the blockade on Gaza, etc.. Unlike naive foreign morons we do not try to artificially repackage the problem only because the real problem is unsolvable at the moment. The real problem is that the Arabs don’t want us here. Until that changes we expect and plan for violence while continuing to build our country.

          We stopped caring about the “next generation” argument when the previous one strapped bombs to their chests and blew up restaurants and buses. It can’t get any worse and we know how to deal with that now.

          Reply to Comment
          • Utemia

            Yes, why didn’t they simply accept jewish superiority and took up arms against what they percieved were violent colonialists. How rude of them.

            You really should repackage the problem though, the fact that you steadfastedly refuse to even consider it and live instead in the delusionary glorious past of fighting for survival in a hostile environment is part of the problem.

            But to be fair, Palestinians also have to stop and change their ways, just as much as Isreal does. I am an equal opportunity critic here, stop being so middle eastern and always reusing the same old tripe racist slogans. Get to know each other and build a future together, and if that means that the state of Israel won’t be a jewish nation state, then so be it. The idea of nationalism is pretty dated anyway, and the idea of ethnoreligious nationalism was old in the 19th century. You don’t have to repeat every single mistake the rest of the world made before discovering that seperation of synagogue and state is a good thing, that unchecked nationalism is dangerous, that fringe groups in power are dangerous, that abusing civil rights and oppressing others and militarism is bad and so on and so forth. Take up a history book and do some reading, and then come up with ideas how to improve the situation instead of blaming others all the time.

            Reply to Comment
    8. Gustav

      Some posters here live in a parallel universe.

      Before the 1967 “Occupation” the Palestinian Arabs didn’t just throw stones. Their Fedayeen raided Israel and murdered Israeli civilians. What was their excuse then?

      In 1947, after the UN voted to partition Palestine, the Palestinian Arabs rioted and butchered Jews, what was their excuse then? Certainly not house demolitions …

      Before the Irgun and Lehi ever existed, Palestinian Arabs attacked Jews in pogroms and massacred us. For instance in Hebron in 1929. What was their excuse then?

      The truth is that Arabs are tribal and nationalistic and they were easily incited by their psychophatic leaders. That was their excuse for murdering Jews. But the Israel hating posting here prefer to forget all that relevant history and project all that on Israel and Israelis. I know what THEIR excuse is for doing that. But I will leave that till later because I don’t want to distract reasonable readers from the above facts.

      Reply to Comment
    9. Peter Hindrup

      The Zionist enterprise from day one was to take possession if Palestine.

      From day one the Jews have always, on every occasion, been the aggressors.

      The biggest mistake that the Palestinians made was not slaughtering the first Russian Jew to put foot in Palestine.

      The second biggest mistake was to trust the British, the third was to trust the Yanks.

      Reply to Comment
      • Peter – “The biggest mistake that the Palestinians made was not slaughtering the first Russian Jew to put foot in Palestine.”

        I used to use the same analogy in terms of Native Americans and wonder why they let the european set foot on their land, but that’s making the victim responsible for somehow not understanding that this foreign invader will eventually steal all that was theirs, for not killing the aggressor before there’s even an understanding that these “infiltrators” are coming in to your country with the notion to take it all. Maybe the Native Americans and the Palestinians felt there was enough land for all. Maybe they had a greater fear of the Most High and that kept them from killing each person as they got off the boats. Also, people that are without guile or a hidden agenda themselves tend to assume others are the same, just as people who are underhanded, dishonest, with murder in their hearts, tend to assume everyone is just like them.

        It sounds like maybe you’re angry that the Palestinians didn’t do what you think you would have done yourself. That’s pretty much blaming the victim and that’s just too easy to be right.

        “Whenever the white man treats the Indian as they treat each other, then we will have no more wars. We shall all be alike–brothers of one father and one another, with one sky above us and one country around us, and one government for all.” – Chief Joseph, Nez Perce

        Reply to Comment
        • Gustav

          “It sounds like maybe you’re angry that the Palestinians didn’t do”

          … yes it does. But don’t you think he sounds even angrier at us the Jews?

          And you lot pretty much agree with him about that but you are less upfront about the fact that you agree with Peter about what should have been (should still be) done to us.

          At least Peter is honest while your kind is deceitful.

          It is BECAUSE of the Peters of this world, and people like you, why we MUST have Israel. And we WILL have Israel even if the very thought of it eats up your insides …

          Reply to Comment
          • “It sounds like maybe you’re angry that the Palestinians didn’t do”

            … yes it does. But don’t you think he sounds even angrier at us the Jews? What difference does it make what I think about it – I wasn’t talking to you in the first place!

            And you lot pretty much agree with him about that but you are less upfront about the fact that you agree with Peter about what should have been (should still be) done to us. – You don’t generalize at all do you? You are in no danger, but you should be very afraid of where you’re government is going. As long as the majority of israelis feel like you do, you’ll never feel safe anywhere, you’ll always be imagining people out to get you (it’s called projection and it is a psychiatric illness) – it doesn’t matter if you live in the magical state of Israel or Greenland. If everyone doesn’t learn to get along and respect each other, this shit will never end and I think that is what a lot of you really want – endless conflict – endless victims – endless occupation. This didn’t happen by accident, this was well planned and the planners knew exactly what happened but also knew they’d be dead and gone before the shit really hit the fan.

            At least Peter is honest while your kind is deceitful. – We’re all honest about our opinions. I don’t doubt what anybody is saying here. The difference between us is we (the “lefties”) are able to see more than your side, which is very well represented all over the state of israel and the whole world actually. But everyone knows there is more than one side to a story and when the truth is revealed and we see how that affects you all, acting like one organism, shooting down almost everything anyone says that is contrary to the propaganda, well Gustav that’s pretty much proof that we’re on the right side of history.

            “It is BECAUSE of the Peters of this world, and people like you, why we MUST have Israel. And we WILL have Israel even if the very thought of it eats up your insides” – There’s nothing wrong with my insides or outsides for that matter, again with the projection! However, you can’t have israel because there were other people here before you and they have the same connection to this land as you claim you have. You have to share the land, but I’m afraid that Netanyahu (like Nero, like Hitler) would rather watch everything burn to the ground and take you and everyone else with him. Before you think the people who don’t agree with you are your enemy or want to kill you, you better take a good hard look at the people who are supposedly your leaders and see the road they are traveling on. If anyone is going to harm you, it’s going to be your own.

            Reply to Comment
      • Utemia

        It doesn’t really matter now, because the state of Israel exists now and is here to stay, and the Palestinians and the Israelis have to move forward together instead of looking decades or millenia backwards.

        If you asked me, one of the biggest problems seems to be that neither Israelis nor Palestinians really seem to know alot about each other besides stereotypes and prejudices. The Israeli education system seems to be actively enganged in perpetrating and installing this sentiment. The segregation of society means that average people don’t have a chance to make up their own mind.

        Take a child in Gaza that was born after 2002 or 2003 – they don’t meet really normal Israeli citizens, how are they suppose to know that what Hamas teaches them about Jews is just propaganda and hilariously false? Wars like the one this summer or the blockade don’t really help to disprove that notion. Nor do the people in the West Bank ever meet normal Israelis, just young soldiers or mostly radical zionist settlers, or dealing with the military bureaucratic permitregime. And neither do Israeli’s get to know normal Palestinians.. instead you have people like Gustav who steadfastly proclaim that all Palestinians are tribal bloodthirsty savages that want to destroy Israel. I don’t really see that much of a difference between what Hamas teaches and what the right wing rhetoric claims is true.

        The dramatic irony of the similarities between what the Nazi propaganda was like about Jews and what propaganda the right wingers use is just incredibly hilarious (in my oppinion anyway). There are quite a few analogies one could draw between Israel and Nazi Germany (and no, not claiming anything like a palestinian holocaust).. for example, take random laws in regard to the Palestinians and replace “Palestinians” with Israelis, and “Israeli” with German, and then debate whether that law would pass Nazi muster and be thus hilariously racist and hateful.

        So, in order to move towards a peaceful living together, be it as neighbouring states or as everybody in one state – it doesn’t really matter which one – requires to get to know each other and to discover the amazing fact that humans are quite alike and that racism and exclusionary ethnoreligious nationalism is bad for you and everybody around you, while secularism is good for everybody and necessary for liberal pluralistic societies.

        Reply to Comment
        • Gustav

          “It doesn’t really matter now, because the state of Israel exists now and is here to stay,”

          That sounds like the existence of the only Jewish state in the world, next to 22 Arab, mostly Muslim states, saddens you. But at least you came to terms with the idea. That’s good. Now, what percentage of the Palestinian Arabs agree with you? I don’t really know but I do definitely know that it is a small minority only. How do I know? ….

          … because they still refuse to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people …

          “and the Palestinians and the Israelis have to move forward together instead of looking decades or millenia backwards.”

          On that I agree with you 100%. As long as you really mean BOTH the Palestinian Arabs and the Palestinian Jews (Israelis). Not JUST the Jews.

          QUESTION: do you think that it happened yet?

          I think that BOTH Arabs and Jews have a lot of work left to do. And it won’t work if only one side (us) is urged to do the hard yard while the other side (the Palestinian Arabs) is elevated to virtual sainthood because of their perceived underdog status.

          “If you asked me, one of the biggest problems seems to be that neither Israelis nor Palestinians really seem to know alot about each other besides stereotypes and prejudices.”

          True.

          “The Israeli education system seems to be actively enganged in perpetrating and installing this sentiment.”

          What would you do to fix our education system?

          “The segregation of society means that average people don’t have a chance to make up their own mind.”

          Segregation of society? The state does not promote segregation. The people themselves self segregate because there is mutual suspicion and distrust between Arabs and Jews because of the 100 year war that we have. A mere 10 years ago Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza were blowing themselves up on our buses, nightclubs and restaurans just so they could take some of us with them to kingdom come. Thousands of us were murdered or maimed.

          Oh and despite all that there still are places in Israel where there are mixed Arab and Jewish communities. Many places.

          How many mixed Arab Jewish communities are there anywhere in the Arab world? ANSWER: Zero! Because there are no Jews left anywhere in the Arab world. We were ALL kicked out from there. So if anything, I would say the Arabs have a lot of catching up to do to us on the question of mixed societies and getting to understand us.

          “Take a child in Gaza that was born after 2002 or 2003 – they don’t meet really normal Israeli citizens, how are they suppose to know that what Hamas teaches them about Jews is just propaganda and hilariously false?”

          True. And the solution is?

          “Wars like the one this summer or the blockade don’t really help to disprove that notion.”

          … nor do rocket fires from Gaza onto the heads of 1 million Israeli civilians prevent wars. Nor Hanas’s charter which promises Israel’s destruction and their refusal to negotiate peace terms help to end the blockade.

          “Nor do the people in the West Bank ever meet normal Israelis,”

          They used to before the onset of the second intifada which Arafat orchestrated in response to Ehud Barak’s 2000/2001 peace offer.

          “just young soldiers or mostly radical zionist settlers, or dealing with the military bureaucratic permitregime.”

          I wonder why the settlers are radicalzed? Maybe they too only meet hatred from the other side so they respond in kind?

          “And neither do Israeli’s get to know normal Palestinians.. instead you have people like Gustav who steadfastly proclaim that all Palestinians are tribal bloodthirsty savages that want to destroy Israel.”

          Yes, I am such a bad influence. But it is interesting to note that your own words above outline the reasons why what I say is mostly true.

          Oh and I never said that ALL Palestinian Arabs are like that. I am on the record of saying that some, the minority are not like that. But as a society, they ARE. If you don’t agree, then please tell us when did the attitude of Palestinian Arab society change? Since when did they develop nothing but good will towards us?

          “I don’t really see that much of a difference between what Hamas teaches and what the right wing rhetoric claims is true.”

          No you wouldn’t. But I don’t see even you as an entirely impartial observer.

          “The dramatic irony of the similarities between what the Nazi propaganda was like about Jews and what propaganda the right wingers use is just incredibly hilarious (in my oppinion anyway). There are quite a few analogies one could draw between Israel and Nazi Germany (and no, not claiming anything like a palestinian holocaust)..”

          Now your true colors are showing. And there I was hoping to see someone half reasonable with whom I could at least potential solutions. But likening us to Nazis? …

          “for example, take random laws in regard to the Palestinians and replace “Palestinians” with Israelis, and “Israeli” with German, and then debate whether that law would pass Nazi muster and be thus hilariously racist and hateful.”

          Ok, let’s apply the same tests to the predominant narratives in Palestinian siciety. Would you therefore accuse Palestinian Arabs of being Nazis?

          “So, in order to move towards a peaceful living together, be it as neighbouring states or as everybody in one state – it doesn’t really matter which one – requires to get to know each other and to discover the amazing fact that humans are quite alike and that racism and exclusionary ethnoreligious nationalism is bad for you and everybody around you, while secularism is good for everybody and necessary for liberal pluralistic societies.”

          Nice theory but at the end, even you do not live up to your own preachings.

          Realistically, the Kumbaya which you are talking about, will not happen for generations because underneath it all, even you cannot get over your tribalism. You know when I’ll believe that you do? When I’ll see the equivalent of the + 972 Magazine and Haaretz being published and read by Palestinian Arab society. Do such publications exist? Please enlighten me because I would like to know if I am wrong …

          Reply to Comment
          • Utemia

            @Gustav: What I meant with that statement about it not mattering about Israel is that it is a fact now, and people have lived there for 3 generations, and it just is what it is, a new country that sprung to live and has established itself. My statement was supposed to be kind of value neutral, actually. And because that is the case, and a reality on the ground, it is pointless to try to respawn the whole region to a previous timeframe. History doesn’t stand still after all, and yes, the Palestinians have to accept that. It’s just the way it is.

            For the record, I mean everybody has to move forward, Arabs as much as Jews. I absolutely loath the hateful rhetoric, and things like Abbas proclaiming the shooter of Rabbi Glick a martyr makes me sick. I don’t condone violence and support or valedication of that kind of violence, regardless of who does it. That doesn’t mean that I don’t understand why such incidents might occur, and it is a bit more complex than just “they hate us”.

            What would I do to fix your education system? I would mandatorily integrate Jews and Arabs in bilingual schools. How that would work in detail.. no idea, but the idea is for young children to get to know and develop friendship with the other side, as it were. It’s much harder to believe any propaganda if you get to know people and have the chance to see for yourself. I read about such bilingual school projects already taking place, and that should spread more, and especially to the territories.

            As for segregation, it doesn’t really matter if its selfimposed or not, the result is the same. The lines of seperation are not just physical, they are also in people’s minds, and that is a lot harder to overcome. But would you agree that going on like it is as of now is not very productive for a safe and secure future? Isn’t that one thing that Israel wants.. security?

            My kumbayah ideal might take generations to achieve, so better start working at it, right? One step at a time, and these things do take a lot of time.

            I am not jewish, nor arab. I judge the state of Israel and its policies based on their merits and faults by looking at things from a secular angle. I don’t have anything against Jews, but I do have a lot to say about Israel.. and the apparent conflation of the two is pretty vexing and on the biggest obstacles on the jewish side to a lasting peace. Modern nation states can’t really be democratic and free if they’re based on a exclusionary tribal religious identity. You better watch out that you don’t become a Jewish version of Iran or something crazy like that without noticing (mostly kidding here).

            You know, I was trying to come up with the palestinian analogy to compare their behaviour to the Nazis, but I wasn’t successful – not for a lack of trying. It’s just a lot easier doing it for Israel because of the IDF and the occupation. If it is possible to do it for the Palestinians in similarly didactic way, I would absolutely do so. But it seems like the Nazis don’t really carry the same meaning for the Palestinians, so the comparison wouldn’t necessarily have the same impact. But generally speaking, Yes. I am equal opportunity critic when it comes down to it.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            “@Gustav: What I meant with that statement about it not mattering about Israel is that it is a fact now, and people have lived there for 3 generations,”

            Actually, some of us lived here much longer than 3 generations. In fact, some of our Jewish families lived here even longer than the Palestinian Arabs.

            “and it just is what it is, a new country that sprung to live and has established itself. My statement was supposed to be kind of value neutral, actually. And because that is the case, and a reality on the ground, it is pointless to try to respawn the whole region to a previous timeframe. History doesn’t stand still after all, and yes, the Palestinians have to accept that. It’s just the way it is.”

            I am glad YOU accept it. Unfortunately though MANY Palestinian Arabs still don’t!

            “For the record, I mean everybody has to move forward, Arabs as much as Jews. I absolutely loath the hateful rhetoric, and things like Abbas proclaiming the shooter of Rabbi Glick a martyr makes me sick. I don’t condone violence and support or valedication of that kind of violence, regardless of who does it.”

            Good for you. I don’t like violence either. But if only my violence makes the difference between my wife and children staying alive, then I am prepared to be violent.

            “That doesn’t mean that I don’t understand why such incidents might occur, and it is a bit more complex than just “they hate us”.

            Not really. Sometimes, some people just hate us. Hate us to the point of wanting to murder us and no it isn’t always our fault. Sometimes it is just because THEY ars the way THEY are. Hey, we have learn’t to deal with reality. Learnt it the hard way.

            “What would I do to fix your education system? I would mandatorily integrate Jews and Arabs in bilingual schools.”

            Yes, we thought of that one too. That is why we already have such schools and it is a good thing too. Arabs too need to want to send their kids to such schools. But guess what: some of the Arabs too, like some of us Jews too choose not to. In a democracy, we need to learn to accept that.

            “How that would work in detail.. no idea, but the idea is for young children to get to know and develop friendship with the other side, as it were.”

            Like I said, we have such schools already and they work well.

            “It’s much harder to believe any propaganda if you get to know people and have the chance to see for yourself. I read about such bilingual school projects already taking place, and that should spread more, and especially to the territories.”

            SHOULD, yes. You can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. That is as true about Arabs as it is true about some of us too. Sometimes we need to take small steps to get to good objectives. Or to invoke another saying: Rome wasn’t built in a day. One thing is for sure though. It will never be built if you ONLY want to push us Israelis to build it. You need to push the Arabs EQUALLY hard to build it or it just won’t happen, EVER!!!

            “As for segregation, it doesn’t really matter if its selfimposed or not, the result is the same. The lines of seperation are not just physical, they are also in people’s minds, and that is a lot harder to overcome. But would you agree that going on like it is as of now is not very productive for a safe and secure future? Isn’t that one thing that Israel wants.. security?”

            I have already answered that one above.

            “My kumbayah ideal might take generations to achieve, so better start working at it, right? One step at a time, and these things do take a lot of time.”

            I’ll say it again, we cannot be the only ones to start. We need partners on the other side. Yet right now we only have people on the other side who urge us to take steps while they do nothing in their own society to take steps. Maybe because they can’t because Hamas is not overly tolerant of dissent. But that still is no help to us. We need you to push Hamas at least as much as you seem to want to push us. Otherwise all bets are off because we won’t make headway with our recalcitrants unless the see the other side making an effort too. I should know because I too am a sceptic at the moment. I don’t see too many good signs.

            “I am not jewish, nor arab. I judge the state of Israel and its policies based on their merits and faults by looking at things from a secular angle.”

            I am secular too. But please don’t over rate secularism. Some of the worst crimes against humanity were perpetrated by secular regimes. For example by Communists and Nazis.

            “I don’t have anything against Jews, but I do have a lot to say about Israel.. and the apparent conflation of the two is pretty vexing and on the biggest obstacles on the jewish side to a lasting peace. Modern nation states can’t really be democratic and free if they’re based on a exclusionary tribal religious identity.”

            I could not disagree with you more! England is formally a Christian state yet Jews and Muslims live there as minorities whose rights are respected. In fact at times, the English people are sometimes bending over backwards to respect minority rights but even their patience would run out if they would be subjected to the kind of suicide bombing campaign to which we were subjected to between 2000 and 2006.

            “You better watch out that you don’t become a Jewish version of Iran or something crazy like that without noticing (mostly kidding here).”

            Don’t worry we won’t 70% of us are secular.

            “You know, I was trying to come up with the palestinian analogy to compare their behaviour to the Nazis, but I wasn’t successful – not for a lack of trying. It’s just a lot easier doing it for Israel because of the IDF and the occupation. If it is possible to do it for the Palestinians in similarly didactic way, I would absolutely do so. But it seems like the Nazis don’t really carry the same meaning for the Palestinians, so the comparison wouldn’t necessarily have the same impact. But generally speaking, Yes. I am equal opportunity critic when it comes down to it.”

            It isn’t as hard as you pretend. Here, repeat after me: Hamas is the same kind of death cult as the Nazis of Germany or even ISIS if you prefer.

            Reply to Comment
          • Utemia

            ” Hamas is the same kind of death cult as the Nazis of Germany or even ISIS if you prefer.”

            Yeah. But the Nazis and the Holocaust don’t carry meaning for most Palestinians. There is this guy on youtube, Cory Gil-Schuster, who randomly interviews people in Israel and the West Bank with questions people email him. One question was, for the Palestinians, “what do you know about the holocaust” and alot of the younger kids didn’t know anything, or just vaguely. And even if they do know, it isn’t percieved and understood to be one of the most evil, inhumane and vile crimes that happened in the last 100 years, or ever. So telling them “what you’re doing has parallels to what they Nazis were doing” isn’t effectful.

            The Nazis are not the right foil, didactically speaking, to contrast what Hamas is doing, because the Palestinians don’t care about the Nazis. I tried to come up with something that would have the same cultural meaning in their history, and the same condemnation from their side that being compared to it would automatically raise people’s hackles.

            Reply to Comment
          • Thanks for your analysis and feedback – you make your point while maintaining decorum and civility (a lesson I’ll be working on).

            Reply to Comment
          • “What would I do to fix your education system? I would mandatorily integrate Jews and Arabs in bilingual schools.”

            I agree with you wholeheartedly and have an idea. This needs to start as early as possible, such as preschool. Reminds me of this song from South Pacific –

            You’ve got to be taught
            To hate and fear,
            You’ve got to be taught
            From year to year,
            It’s got to be drummed
            In your dear little ear
            You’ve got to be carefully taught.

            You’ve got to be taught to be afraid
            Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
            And people whose skin is a diff’rent shade,
            You’ve got to be carefully taught.

            You’ve got to be taught before it’s too late,
            Before you are six or seven or eight,
            To hate all the people your relatives hate,
            You’ve got to be carefully taught –

            Children play with each other without the hangups their parents have so to wait until they are 5 or older is waiting too long. How could this work? How about UN presence in the state of israel for starters, to keep the Palestinians and the Israelis “in check” (on good behavior). For those who would disagree, I get it but there must be an outside regulatory system in place that is not tainted by the influence of special interest groups (AIPAC, the Israel Lobby, the politicians who’ve been bought by those special interests, etc.). There doesn’t seem to be any Palestinian special interest groups, if there were, they most likely wouldn’t be in the wretched condition they are in nor would this conversation be necessary.

            “As for segregation, it doesn’t really matter if its selfimposed or not, the result is the same. The lines of seperation are not just physical, they are also in people’s minds, and that is a lot harder to overcome. But would you agree that going on like it is as of now is not very productive for a safe and secure future? Isn’t that one thing that Israel wants.. security?”

            This made me think of Whitney Houston –
            I believe the children are our future
            Teach them well and let them lead the way
            Show them all the beauty they possess inside
            Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
            Let the children’s laughter remind us how we used to be.

            I know that’s corny but this is what ALL children deserve and to constantly shortchange them, take away any hope they have, nourish them only with hatred, indifference to the suffering of others and a sense of entitlement and supremacy is a guarantee they’ll be fighting for the rest of their lives and never know how to live with people who have different beliefs or customs (why does being different seem to always translate into something negative?)

            Reply to Comment
          • Utemia

            As for the drawing of parallels to Nazi Germany.. that’s just mostly for didactic reasons. I’d totally dare to lead such a debate in secondary school or university, it’s provocative and, for some things, accurate. It’s not really my intention to go “HA HA U R Nazis too” or something juvenile like that, it is intended to light a fire under public debate about occupation that is something different than “it is necessary for security reasons”.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Nevertheless, if you would walk in our shoes, you’d realize how unjustifiable and insensitive it is to bring up such analogies. I would even say that it is outright perverse.

            It comes across almost as if you want to say: ‘see the German Nazis were not so wrong after all …’

            Reply to Comment
          • Utemia

            The point is to draw attention to the fact that you, as in the State of Israel, are also doing a perverse thing in the territories, all in the name of security. How far are you willing to go for that sake? What line wouldn’t you cross?

            It’s not saying “Oh, the Nazi’s aren’t so bad after all”, it’s saying “we are capable of the same thing if we don’t take care”.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            It is saying that we are as bad as the Nazis were.

            Do you really want to say that? Because if you do then you are just belitting what the Nazis did. We are rank amateurs compared to what the German Nazis were.

            Reply to Comment
          • Utemia

            It is saying that in some respects, Israel does similar things, yes. The IDF stationed in the West Bank act like racist thugs, according to testimonies from Breaking the Silence. Israel is torturing its prisoners, and ShinBet can act like the GeStaPo if it’s merrited in their oppinion .. they as much admitted to that in “Gatekeepers”. The Palestinian ghettos that are created with the security barriers – there are villages that are completely surrounded by the fence and access is controlled 100% by the IDF. Also, the radical settlers being violent and comitting vandalism against Palestinian shops, spray paining the star of david on their mosques, which is a lot like spray paining a swastika on a synagogue. In Tuwani the IDF has to escort palestinian schoolchildren everyday to school to protect them from stonethrowing settlers, something they have been doing since 2004. I don’t know, I don’t have problems to come up with a lot of examples where I can draw direct parallels to what happened in Germany. And of course, do the thing with the israeli laws regarding Palestinians and view them through a different lense.

            Furthermore, In the film “Gatekeepers” – an interview with a last 6 living directors of Shin Bet, very interesting film – one of them, forgot which one, mentioned the similarities between the Occupation in the West Bank and what the Nazis were doing while occupying France or Belgium. You can hardly accuse them of being unpatriotic or against Israel.

            What I noticed while watching a documentary where Daniella Weiss was interviewed about the settler movement was the absolute fanatic messianic zest that she seemed to have, the look her in her eyes. She is absolutely convinced of the righteousness of what she is doing, and THAT reminded me a lot of the die hard Nazis ideologists. Not contentwise, obviously, but their belief in their own ideology – in her case that Judea and Sammaria were promised to the Jews by God, and that the Palestinians living there just had to accept that or suffer the consequences of their recalcitrance. That is a subjective interpretation on my part, and her stance on the settlement movement doesn’t necessarily reflect mainstream oppinion.

            Does this mean that I am also comparing the evilness, if you will? The answer to that is an emphatic NO. I don’t Israel is an unlawful evil regime, but I do think it employs alot of the same evil methods as described above, and that this fact is shielded by the segregation and occupation, and that it isn’t part of the public discourse because it’s done for “security reasons” that justify them all.

            That is why comparing it to Nazi Germany instead of racism in the US or South African Apartheid is maybe more effective to get people fired up and interested. The only danger of this approach is that people might automatically put up defensive blinders that prevent them from engaging in a discourse, which makes the whole thing moot.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Now listen Utemia and listen good:

            Even if some of the lies that are told about us would be true. Or even if we would be guilty of cruelty WITHOUT PROVOCATIONS against a completely innocent “peace loving” population which wouldn’t hurt a fly, we could not even begin to hold a candle up to the atrocities which the “civilized German Nazis” conceived and actually committed against us. Help me out in here… Show me:

            – the extermination camps which we built?

            – the gas chambers which we built and used?

            – the slave labor camps which we run?

            – the medical experiments wiith humans which we carried out?

            – the crematoria which we built to burn murdered humans?

            – the lamp shades which we made of human skin?

            – the soap made from humans which we made?

            – the processing of dentures to harvest gold from human teeth which we carried out?

            Get the drift? Want me to go on in lurid detail? Seriously Utemia, please stop pushing this line of argument or I would need to start accusing you of an unhealthy desire to try and whitewash yourself from the sins which possibly your own relatives committed against some of my relatives who were actually murdered at the Nazi death factories. What you are doing is obscene. Just obscene. If you continue, I will draw the obvious conclusions from it.

            Reply to Comment
          • “Now listen Utemia and listen good:”

            You aren’t talking to your wife or daughter here and you have absolutely zero authority over anyone here.

            Even if some of the lies that are told about us would be true. Or even if we would be guilty of cruelty WITHOUT PROVOCATIONS against a completely innocent “peace loving” population which wouldn’t hurt a fly, we could not even begin to hold a candle up to the atrocities which the “civilized German Nazis” conceived and actually committed against us. Help me out in here… Show me:

            You don’t have to be an actual nazi in order for comparisons to be made. People on the left have been called nazis themselves because of their concern over the condition of the Palestinians and its no less ugly. The fact that actual concentration camps haven’t been built isn’t something to brag about. As Rivlin said “This is a sick society”.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            All societies which are at war are distorted societies. And Rivlin did not limit his comments just at us he said the same thing about the Palestinian Arabs. Yet lefties immediately jumped on the bandwagon and highlighted what he said about us but ignore what he says about them. That is sick too.

            As for calling leftists, Nazis? No I don’t advocate that either. In fact to be honest, if they are really extreme leftists, I might prefer to liken them to Stalinists or to the Khmer Rouge both of whom were left wingers and every bit as genocidal as the Nazis.

            Last but not least, Marnie, at least we have a fatherly figure like Rivlin who admonishes us. But tell us please, where is the Palestinian Arab Rivlin figure?

            Reply to Comment
          • “But tell us please, where is the Palestinian Arab Rivlin figure?”

            I sure don’t know. Dr. Hanan Ashwari? It could be the Palestinian Rivlin figure was among the hundreds of children blown to pieces in July/August. Or maybe he/she is yet to be born?

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Ashrawi? Are you joking? Unlike Rivlin who is self critical and is a lonely figure trying to cool things down, Ashrawi is busily fanning the flames and is finger pointing.

            The rest of your post is just avoiding an answer. I suppose because underneath it all you recognize that there is no answer. The Palestinian Arabs as a society are still as full of hate as they were 100 years ago before there was “occupation” or “settlements” when it was clear that they were driven by Arab nationalism.

            Reply to Comment
          • No I wasn’t kidding about Dr. Ashwari at all. It doesn’t matter whether you approve or not, we don’t have a say in the matter. I also said straight out I don’t know so there’s been no meandering on my part and it is possible a future leader of Palestine was among the hundreds of children killed this past July-August. Do you only see Palestinian children as future terrorists or breeders of terrorists, as Ms. Shaked does? Is that why there is so little remorse on the part of the GOI?

            Reply to Comment
          • “Ashrawi? Are you joking? Unlike Rivlin who is self critical and is a lonely figure trying to cool things down, Ashrawi is busily fanning the flames and is finger pointing.”

            I signed off too soon. I see that Rivlin is a lonely figure as he has angered the base. I see Ashwari is probably still trying to deal with the deaths and utter devastation courtesy of the GOI/IDF, and you think maybe she’s finger-pointing and fanning the flames? Shit put it in perspective Gustav – Netanyahu went ballistic after the deaths of 3 israeli youths, and spoke the language of revenge, revenge, revenge. Dr. Ashrawi is an intelligent human being. You wanna talk about finger-pointing (?) and fanning the flames, you needn’t look any farther than the death mask countenance of seasoned flame-thrower Moshe Feiglin, his home boy Naftali Bennett and his gal pal Ayelet Shaked, just to mention a few.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Ok I get it.

            Rivlin: Stop the hatred …

            Ashrawi: Revenge, revenge, revenge …

            They are both the same. They are both urging peaceful coexistence.

            Thank you Marnie.

            Reply to Comment
          • I stand with what I wrote and you’re welcome.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            You wrote about how you understand the need for revenge for Palestinians.

            Yet it is obvious from a post towards the end of the thread that you reject the need for revenge for Israeli Jews.

            That is a double standard. Moreover, you still have not identified a Rivlin like figure in Palestinian Arab society who preaches for LESS hatred and MORE tolerance.

            Reply to Comment
          • “Yet it is obvious from a post towards the end of the thread that you reject the need for revenge for Israeli Jews.” Where? What are you talking about, and it seems when you use the word obvious, you clearly misrepresent, have misunderstand or distorted what you think someone means or said.

            “That is a double standard. Moreover, you still have not identified a Rivlin like figure in Palestinian Arab society who preaches for LESS hatred and MORE tolerance.” Are you serious? The onus is on me? Sorry that’s not my job. Please note what I already stated –

            You – “But tell us please, where is the Palestinian Arab Rivlin figure?”

            Me – I sure don’t know. Dr. Hanan Ashwari? It could be the Palestinian Rivlin figure was among the hundreds of children blown to pieces in July/August. Or maybe he/she is yet to be born?

            I know Dr. Ashwari is not liked by israelis which is why I suggested her, just for entertainment value. How about Omar Barghouti? It doesn’t matter, who ever it is will not be chosen by israelis, anymore than palestinians choosing israel’s next prime minister.

            Reply to Comment
          • Utemia

            Gustav, I explained in detail what I meant, and even one of the directors of Shin Bet said that there are similarities.

            I should probably have stated very explicitly what I didn’t mean, though. I did say before that there is no such thing as palestinian Holocaust, nor have I accused Israel of doing that, anywhere.

            I think I said all I wanted to say on this issue anyway, I made the point I wanted to make, and so I will stop on this issue now.

            I wanted to rattle your cage, I admit it, but I didn’t mean to really offend you to this degree. Sorry.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            No need to apologize. It is enough if you agree not to go beyond certain limits which in my opinion is nothing more than polemics and offensive polemics at that. I thank you for recognizing that point.

            Reply to Comment
    10. Gustav

      “The biggest mistake that the Palestinians made was not slaughtering the first Russian Jew to put foot in Palestine”

      Thank you. An honest advocate for the genocide of Jews. Not the first one, nor the last one.

      Interesting that the usual suspects on this site have no problems with admonishing posters who advocate similar things against Arabs but are very quiet about adminishing posters who post such things about Jews. It kinda puts a lie to their claim that they are honest brokers who want to see only justice …

      Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        I have no problems with the likes of Peter Hindrup. We know how to deal with the likes of him one fine day …

        I do however have a lot of problems with the other hypocrites here who are like Peter but who pretend not to be and who stand on their soap boxes day in day out and try to preach to us about morality in which they themselves don’t believe.

        Reply to Comment
    11. Brian

      Utemia, above, has it right. Cyncism is the key word. It’s all contained in the first few words by Zonzein: “If Israel was serious about restoring security to its capital…”

      Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        Yeah, Right …

        It is a bit like putting the cart before the horse and expecting things to function.

        Allegedly the problems all start with the effect. “Teenagers in jail …” which embitter them etc. According to this ideology, the problems don’t start because of incitement and misinformation being fed to teenagers by older people who should know better. And it does not start with the Palestinian Arab psyche which imagines that one day, total victory would be theirs, after which they would be able to fulfil their dream of getting rid of the hated Jews from a land that in their opinion is and “should be” ALL Arab.

        No, that isn’t the problem. The problem is that Israel punishes stone throwers who sometimes kill and certainly can cause severe injuries. No, not much …

        Reply to Comment
        • Utemia

          Gustav: First of all, I don’t hate Israel or want to destroy and kill all Jews, and criticism of Israel’s actions as a nation state is not synonymous to advocating genocide. There is no need for this hysteria, it just makes you look ridiculous!

          And why are you bringing up what the Arabs decided in 1947 in order to paint their great grandchildren with the same brush almost 70 years later? Way of strawmanning there.. and anyway, it’s kind of ridiculous to accuse Palestinians of being tribal when Jews are pretty much basing their legitimacy on the fact that they are the 12 tribels of Israel.

          When I compare how the radical settlers and what kind of rhetoric the right wingers use, it’s not very different from the radicals on the palestinian side in sentiment. But of course, I forgot, everybody is the same as the radical fringe minority, and because “simplify your life” is a good motto, all Arabs just hate Jews because they are evil murderous tribalistic savages, whereas the Jews in the 21st century are just innocent victims. It’s good moving melodrama with a strong moral message, not indoctrination at all!

          Now that I got that off my chest, I would like to ask you what your solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict is. More draconian measures because being tough on crime works wonders, this is known! or maybe more ghettos and segregation where it is possible to control your victims, I mean the bloodthirsty savages better, or.. how about some ethnic cleansing.. simple remove and resettle the population somewhere east? Camps in the desert maybe? Best to not call them camps, that’s frowned upon.

          Anyway, the whole teenagers in jail turn into embittered unemployed and disillusioned broken members of society, exacerbated by blatant discimination and racism of the occupation.. that is not ideology, that is sociology and psychology telling you that treating people like shit is a bad idea and can cause a lot of problems. And you can say what you want, the Israeli government knows this and uses it to their advantage, and the security services are probably greatful for that because it means job security for forever.

          Reply to Comment
          • Exactly. It’s too easy to say
            “they hate the Jews”. Look at some possible triggers here. The israeli point of view may be “we’re the victims here, this is our land” etc. The Palestinian point of view may be “you’ve taken land that’s been in my family for centuries, killed my people, uprooted my trees, killed my livestock, destroyed our hope for a future and now we don’t have anything left to lose”. When you take away someone’s hope, you’d better believe there’s going to be major consequences.

            Reply to Comment
          • Kolumn8

            They do hate the Jews. And this is our homeland. So, even if there are consequences we are going to continue ensuring our existence here.

            Unfortunately the ‘hope’ that has been sold to Palestinians is one for the destruction of Israel and the expulsion or massacre of the Jews. This has been the case from before 1947 and continues to be the case now. If that ‘hope’ has been destroyed we are making progress. If the Palestinians want real hope for a bright future they are going to have to accept that they are not going to destroy us and that we are not going anywhere. They can embrace the hope of building their own state next to Israel rather than bitterly insisting that their ‘hope’ of destroying Israel is legitimate which is what I see repeated on a daily basis by all Palestinian factions.

            It makes me very happy to hear that their sick hopes have been destroyed. Perhaps they can now be replaced by more productive ones.

            Reply to Comment
          • Utemia

            Well, it is their “homeland” as well. So, what do you propose to do in order to foster hope for a mutually beneficial existence in a very densly populated and.. kind of small region?

            Do you think being “tough” and “destroying their hopes” is a constructive and beneficial method towards that goal?

            How do you know that they do hate all Jews? You’re acting like it’s embedded in their genetic makeup and something that can’t be changed or altered, ever. Have you ever actually met and talked to Palestinians in normal circumstances? It sounds like you are mindlessly repeating what you were told.

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          • Kolumn8

            I propose the Palestinians accept the persistent existence of Israel as a Jewish state and get on with embracing a state living next to and in peace with a secure Israel. So far what I hear is that the Palestinians are neither willing to accept a Jewish state, not willing to accept a state unless it is allowed to be a threat to Israel, and not willing actually sign anything that suggests an end to the conflict.

            Yes, being “tough” and “destroying their hopes” has demonstrated itself as being a constructive and beneficial method towards that goal. As long as there is hope on their side that they will be able to defeat and destroy Israel they have no reason to compromise because as you point out they think this is their homeland and see no reason why they should accept Israel in it. So far being “tough” and “destroying their hopes” has pushed Egypt and Jordan into dropping their demands from 1948 and making peace with Israel, and has pushed the Palestinians to accept the 1967 lines at Oslo.

            How do I know that they hate all Jews? Because they overwhelmingly treat as heroes terrorists whose claim to fame is the murder of Jewish civilians. It is not embedded in their genetic makeup. It is however taught to them from birth to hate Jews and to desire to see Israel destroyed. I have met and talked with Palestinians. The common denominator is that they wish to control this entire area instead of us and they consider it unjust that Jews have any power here. Once you get past the usual niceties about how they want peace and “justice” that is where you end up. Even the ones that talk about a “secular democratic state” are talking about an Arab state which treats Jews as some sort of pet to be rewarded based on how well it degrades itself before its masters. And they can’t even talk about a binational state because they continue to refuse to accept that the Jews are a nation.

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          • “How do you know that they do hate all Jews? You’re acting like it’s embedded in their genetic makeup and something that can’t be changed or altered, ever. Have you ever actually met and talked to Palestinians in normal circumstances? It sounds like you are mindlessly repeating what you were told.”

            This could also be projection.
            “Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude.” Or accusing Palestinians of hating Jews when it’s the accuser that hates the Palestinians, etc. God only knows that living in an atmosphere of irrational fear and irrational hatred has a terrible effect on everyone, but I think the effect it has on the Jews that feel these emotions is destroying their minds as well as their souls.

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          • Pedro X

            How do you know that they do hate all Jews? Poll after poll tell us that.

            In 2011 American pollster Stanley Greenberg with Beit Sahour-based Palestinian Center for Public Opinion polled 1010 Palestinians. 73% responded that they agreed with the Hadith that all Jews had to be killed. 80% supported the need for Arab battalions to defeat Israel. 53% supported teaching children songs in school to make them hate Israelis.

            A Pew poll in 2011 found only 4% of Palestinians had favorable feelings towards Jews.

            A global survey by ADL in 2014 found that 93% of Palestinians held anti-Semitic views.

            A Palestinian PSR study found that 88% of Palestinians approved of Hamas’ tactics in the Gaza war. 72% wanted to see Hamas weapons and tactics transferred to the West Bank. 53% approved of the killing of 3 kidnapped Israeli teenagers.

            The problem is that most Palestinians do not support a two sate solution in which Palestinians would have to give up their claims. A July 2010 PSR poll found that 82% of Palestinians would not favour a settlement of the conflict if Palestinians had to compromise on any key issue, such as right of return. The same year an Arab world for research and development poll found the number was 85% who would not compromise on an key issue.

            A September 2014 poll by Washington Institute for Near East Policy found that 60% of Palestinians reject permanently accepting Israel’s existence and instead suggest their leaders “work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine, from the river to the sea.”

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          • Brian

            Utemia, welcome to the thought world of fanatics, who want to believe one thing only though I know it’s not your first exposure by a long shot. Psychiatrists rightly call these “overvalued ideas.” You can see that you might as well be talking to a 72 lb. sufferer of anorexia nervosa who just knows she’s fat. But your effort is exceptionally articulate and I congratulate you.

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          • Utemia

            Brian: This is why you have to use creative means to illustrate why their position is hypocritical, hateful, racist and bigoted.. like exchanging the acting agents in Israel with German Nazis and Jews.

            Germans vandalizing jewish stores, banning Jews from using some roads, harassing jewish farmers, conducting raids in jewish villages and arresting people, abusing and beating those that are arrested.. (just describing daily life in the West Bank here) or german communities telling jewish applicants that “they don’t fit in the socio cultural environment” when they apply for residency somewhere, now that usually gets a reaction.

            You just have to present it believably to get the outrage and indignation going, and then pull the carpet underneath their feet by telling them, no.. that’s actually what Israel is doing to them. Of course, this analogy only goes so far, but the similarities are there and the shock to the system is maybe enough to open someones’ eyes. One person at a time, right?

            And thanks for the compliment!

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          • Brian

            It’s interesting that you bring that up because the terrible historical irony of Jews acting similar to German Nazis occurs to me often but I check my inclination to point it out because we have all been told that any references to Nazis no matter how apposite can never be helpful, no matter what, is out of bounds, will automatically generate more heat than light, is simply too provocative and hurtful, etc., etc. And I understand where that comes from and respect it yet sometimes the irony is overwhelming.

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          • Utemia

            The abused mirroring the abuser is one of the oldest topoi there is, and it is exactly the historical context of this specific comparison that makes it into such an extremely powerful teaching tool.

            I do understand why it is very provocative (I am German) and I don’t make it lightly, but after all is said and done being hateful racists and murderes isn’t exactly something that was and is exclusive to Germany, and having been the victims of it doesn’t automatically preculude a person from being a perpetrator.

            If anything, history taught that anybody can turn into such a monster. It is funny that a certain segment of Israelis seem to be deluding themselves into believing that they’re above such base behaviour, and that only the Palestinians fit into that category. Dramatic Irony indeed.

            I watched the movie “Gatekeeper” and one – forgot which one – also drew the comparison of the Israeli occupation to Nazi occupation and said it was similar to how Germany occupied Belgium or France.

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          • “It makes me very happy to hear that their sick hopes have been destroyed. Perhaps they can now be replaced by more productive ones.”

            If that’s what you heard, you’ve got at least one too many voices in your head.

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          • Kolumn8

            That is what you wrote: “When you take away someone’s hope”…

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          • Gustav

            “Gustav: First of all, I don’t hate Israel or want to destroy and kill all Jews, and criticism of Israel’s actions as a nation state is not synonymous to advocating genocide. There is no need for this hysteria, it just makes you look ridiculous!”

            What hysteria? You don’t think Peter hindrup advocated genocide against us? Which bit of the following comment of his has not advocated genocide?

            “The biggest mistake that the Palestinians made was not slaughtering the first Russian Jew to put foot in Palestine”

            “And why are you bringing up what the Arabs decided in 1947 in order to paint their great grandchildren with the same brush almost 70 years later? Way of strawmanning there.. ”

            Because I would like you to tell me exactly at what point of time do you think the Arabs stopped hating us? Back then, we did not have settlements, nor did we rule over them yet they wanted to murder us all and expel us. At what point of time did they have an epiphany and started loving us? Please tell us, Utemia …

            “and anyway, it’s kind of ridiculous to accuse Palestinians of being tribal when Jews are pretty much basing their legitimacy on the fact that they are the 12 tribels of Israel.”

            First of all, I did not claim that we too are not tribal. Most people are tribal. We for instance are tribal because towards the late 1800s, our Zionists leaders realized that the Jewish people need one place on this earth where we need to be in the majority so that it will serve our people as a safe haven from persecution. You do admit that we as a people were subject to persecutions in lots of places, including in Arab lands, don’t you Utemia?

            “When I compare how the radical settlers and what kind of rhetoric the right wingers use, it’s not very different from the radicals on the palestinian side in sentiment. But of course, I forgot, everybody is the same as the radical fringe minority, and because “simplify your life” is a good motto, all Arabs just hate Jews because they are evil murderous tribalistic savages,”

            I did not say all. I do however say the majority. Just look back at history and tell me that it isn’t so.

            “whereas the Jews in the 21st century are just innocent victims. It’s good moving melodrama with a strong moral message, not indoctrination at all!”

            What was the terrible thing that the Jews of the 21st century do, Utemia? We dared to defend ourselves from Hamas’s or Hezbollah’s rocket fire?

            “Now that I got that off my chest, I would like to ask you what your solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict is.”

            I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings. We have no solution. The solution lies with the Palestinian Arabs. The day on which they will decide that they want to have genuine peace with us, we will make peace with THEM. Till then, all we can do is wait till they come to their senses and in the meanwhile we need to do our best to minimize damage.

            But I will leave you with this thought: before WW1, Europe too was war-torn. There were wars every few years and hatred was rife amongst European nations. It took two world wars to cure most Europeans from addiction to war, hatred and tribalism. Even now, you are not perfect but you are a lot better. We in the Middle East have yet to go through a similar baptism of fire. We need to get to the stage where the majority of both sides will need to get thoroughly sick of war and bloodshed. It is a scary thought but it is nevertheless true in my opinion. And if I am right, then unfortunately there will be a fair bit of more suffering by both sides before we learn that nobody wins in wars. There are only losers and bigger losers. But we the Jewish people of Israel have no choice because we either fight or we really will be butchered. Because in this part of the world, the weak get slaughtered. Look all around the Middle East if you don’t believe me.

            “More draconian measures because being tough on crime works wonders, this is known! or maybe more ghettos and segregation where it is possible to control your victims, I mean the bloodthirsty savages better, or.. how about some ethnic cleansing.. simple remove and resettle the population somewhere east? Camps in the desert maybe? Best to not call them camps, that’s frowned upon.”

            You seem to have lot’s of solutions. But I think we will keep you out of it. At this point I could turn rude but I won’t because you did say some cleverer words before. The above ones are either just silly, or you are trying to provoke.

            “Anyway, the whole teenagers in jail turn into embittered unemployed and disillusioned broken members of society, exacerbated by blatant discimination and racism of the occupation..”

            Racism of the occupation? BS! Unless you consider all people who are at war racists. In which case your Palestinian Arabs are at least as “racist as us”.

            “that is not ideology, that is sociology and psychology telling you that treating people like shit is a bad idea and can cause a lot of problems.”

            So you want us to treat THEM well when they treat US like shit? Being blown up by suicide bombers is being treated like shit. That’s what they did to us for 6 years between 2000 and 2006 and the only way that we managed to slow them down was by treating them like shit too. Because apparently offering them a peace deal which Bill Clinton described to Arafat as the opportunity of a life time, did not work. Nor did Ehud Olmert’s peace offer of 2008 which was even more generous.

            “And you can say what you want, the Israeli government knows this and uses it to their advantage, and the security services are probably greatful for that because it means job security for forever.”

            Can I say what I want? Thank you. So this is my reply: BS!!!!

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          • Utemia

            I appologize, that post wasn’t really.. well thought out. I shall try henceforth to put my arguments in a cleverer and more conductive way so that debating about contesting issues is possible.

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          • Gustav

            As I said above, Utemia, no need to apologize. Let’s just keep our discussion to within reasonable limits and stay away from polemics. I am sure we have plenty to disagree about and still be able to stay respectful.

            I do admit that I have been finding it hard to stay respectful here with a lot of the posters. But with you, I feel that there is hope.

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    12. “The truth is that Arabs are tribal and nationalistic and they were easily incited by their psychophatic leaders. That was their excuse for murdering Jews.”

      Sounds like the description of the tribal, nationalistic Jews who were easily incited by their psychopathic leaders and that was their excuse for the kidnapping and immolation of Mohammed Abu Khdeir.

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    13. Moderator – I wrote a response to Peter and wonder why it isn’t posted. Oh well, can’t win ’em all (or sometimes any!)

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    14. Dear moderator – thanks

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    15. Sam Goldring

      Reprinted over 22 times beginning in 1939. Chapter 8 relates what Palestine was like in the 1920’s.
      Includes the author’s interview with the Grand Mufti.
      The book is “Days of Our Years” by Pierre van Paassen
      Available for free at http://www.archive.org

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    16. sam

      Stone throwing will come to an end when the Arabs of Palestine put down their stones and reach out in love and friendship as did the late Anwar Sadat.

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    17. ‘So you are in favor of revenge Marnie?” NEVER.

      “Then why did you object to the revenge murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir by three of our idiots?They killed him because of the murder of three Israeli teenagers by Palestinian Arab terrorists a week or so before Mohammed himself was murdered.”

      Why did I object? Gustav, I have no idea how you come up with this. I’m baffled, discouraged and feel really sorry for you and all who feel like you.

      “Or are you saying that revenge by Israelis is verboten but is ok when Palestinian Arabs do it to Jews?”
      It doesn’t make dialogue possible. REVENGE IS THE ACT OF IDIOTS, IT DOESN’T SOLVE ANYTHING AND IT NEVER EVER ENDS ANYTHING.

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    18. Gustav

      I am looking for the post from which you are quoting me, Marnie. I can’t find it.

      I do recall writing something like it but not in the way that you put it together. It appears out of context and indeed it makes ME look stupid.

      Help me out Marnie. Point out the post from which you extracted your quotes of me.

      Alternatively, don’t in which case, I will not be able to explain what I meant.

      From memory, though, the gist of what I was trying to say was that you seem to be in favor of revenge attacks against Israelis but not vice versa. Which is a double standard.

      Personally: I am against ALL revenge attacks. Be it by Israelis or Arabs.

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