+972 Magazine's Stories of the Week

Directly In Your Inbox

Analysis News
Visit our Hebrew site, "Local Call" , in partnership with Just Vision.

The diplomatic process: There might be no Kerry proposal

Trying to satisfy Netanyahu’s political needs might result in the Americans ‘missing the moment of opportunity,’ says a former Israeli official.

The diplomatic process between Israel and the Palestinian Authority is at a crossroads as the American team, led by Secretary of State John Kerry, is said to be preparing an outline for a final-status agreement. President Obama will meet Prime Minister Netanyahu and PA President Abbas in the coming weeks and later in the month, the American proposal will probably be made public. However, there is no official publication date and it is not clear what would such a paper might look like. Recent media reports suggest there might not even be a paper, since Kerry’s team is having such a hard time producing a document that both parties could adopt.

If the Kerry team fails to produce an agreed-upon paper, the secretary of state will be left with two alternatives: publishing a document that one or both parties might reject, or not publishing anything at all. In both cases, the negotiations might end.

The working assumption in certain Israeli political circles is that Netanyahu is already preparing for the third option – that Kerry’s team will not present a proposal at all. In such a case, the Israeli prime minister will try to blame the Palestinians for “missing an opportunity.” The Prime Minister’s Office’s line will be that the talks failed because Abbas refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, despite the fact that the U.S. and other countries now support this demand. There are indications that there is more support for Israel’s position on this matter than on other issues — certainly more than the settlements.

A couple of recent media reports suggest that Netanyahu envisions an impending breakdown in the talks. Pro-Netanyahu paper Israel Hayom writes that the Israeli prime minister will not break from his Likud Party (which is heavily populated by influential opponents of the two-state solution); an article in Maariv claims that Netanyahu made up his mind not to release the fourth and last group of prisoners set to be freed during the process if the Palestinians do not adopt the upcoming American proposal. The prisoner release is scheduled for the end of this month.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry meets with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in Amman, Jordan, June 29, 2013. (Photo by State Dept.)

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry meets with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in Amman, Jordan, June 29, 2013. (Photo by State Dept.)

So what happened to the Kerry process? Last week I spoke to a centrist Israeli politician who took part in the highest levels of a previous round of talks. While expressing admiration for Secretary Kerry’s efforts (“Kerry is indeed obsessive, but in the most positive way,” he said), the person to whom I spoke expressed deep concern that the Americans are “about to miss this moment [of opportunity].”

Kerry has tailored his offer to Netanyahu’s political needs in recent weeks, said the former official, instead of challenging him and the Israeli public with a far-reaching offer to which the Palestinians would have had to agree. By “far reaching,” he meant making clear references to 1:1 land swaps and East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital. Such an offer would have forced Netanyahu to choose between the peace process and his right-wing coalition partners. In such a scenario, the government might eventually fall and we could have, for the first time, “an election on the issue,” as the official put it.

Instead, he said, Kerry has gotten all sorts of vague commitments from Bibi, which have created a sense of achievement but nothing concrete. The official estimated that the Americans are reluctant to confront Netanyahu on the Palestinian front after doing so on Iran, and to a lesser extent, on Syria. He wondered whether the attempt to prolong the negotiations might be intended to postpone the moment of decision until after the American mid-term congressional elections, when the administration will have more room for political maneuvering.

An analyst I spoke to, who also took part in a previous round of talks, agreed that the American side was overly sensitive to the political needs of the right-wing government in Jerusalem. “The Americans believed that they have Abu Mazen in their pocket and that Netanyahu is the problem. That has made them more flexible with Bibi. But now they are getting a lot of pushback from the Palestinians.” The analyst went ahead and named leading members of Kerry’s peace team, stating that while several of them are close to the Israeli side in their positions, “nobody was brought in to satisfy the Palestinians or to represent their needs.”

Read +972’s full coverage of the peace process

Both the official and the analyst estimated that President Abbas will be unwilling, and probably unable to accept the American proposal under such circumstances. (I am not sure I agree. Abbas is playing a very bad hand and has no real alternative to the negotiations or to American-European support for his leadership.)

Both people I spoke to were careful not to call the Kerry process a failure, stating that the American offer is still being debated and that many issues are still up in the air. “Much of what has been published were trial balloons,” said the analyst. “Let’s be careful not to make predictions.”

According to reports in the media, the American proposal would have included recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, but make only a vague commitment to the 1967 borders and Palestinian claims for East Jerusalem. Israel will be allowed to annex the major settlements and it’s not clear whether the principle of 1:1 land swaps would be recognized. Also, Israel will not be required to recognize its responsibility for the refugee problem, and almost no refugees would be allowed to return. Additionally, recent reports suggest that the Kerry team is leaning toward a prolonged Israeli presence along the Jordan Valley.

Last week, Palestinian media outlets reported that President Abbas rejected Kerry’s proposal, going so far as to storm out of a meeting with him in Paris.

***

Another noteworthy angle of this particular moment has to do with the Israeli peace movement and the parliamentary opposition to Netanyahu’s government. There is strong public support for the Kerry process in the opposition at the moment, with politicians from the Left condemning settler attacks against the secretary of state and peace groups staging public campaigns in support of the Kerry initiative.

However, all indications are that Bibi was about to say “yes” to Kerry anyway, and that those who have problems with his current ideas are the Palestinians, who perceive the American team to be following Netanyahu’s lead on all central issues. As a result, there is growing concern inside the peace organizations and left-wing parties about the way their support for peace has transformed into support for Netanyahu himself.

“No Israeli politician can take a position that is more pro-Palestinian than the Americans,” explained a political strategist who worked with many peace groups and leftist politicians. “It is political suicide. Look at Meretz or Labor or Peace Now – they know what’s going on but they are very careful not to attack Kerry’s ideas.”

When there is little daylight between the Americans and Netanyahu, he concluded, “we have nothing to work with.”

Related:
Beware, J Street: The Kerry deal looks rigged against the Palestinians
The ever-shrinking Kerry peace process
What does Bibi actually want?

Before you go...

A lot of work goes into creating articles like the one you just read. And while we don’t do this for the money, even our model of non-profit, independent journalism has bills to pay.

+972 Magazine is owned by our bloggers and journalists, who are driven by passion and dedication to the causes we cover. But we still need to pay for editing, photography, translation, web design and servers, legal services, and more.

As an independent journalism outlet we aren’t beholden to any outside interests. In order to safeguard that independence voice, we are proud to count you, our readers, as our most important supporters. If each of our readers becomes a supporter of our work, +972 Magazine will remain a strong, independent, and sustainable force helping drive the discourse on Israel/Palestine in the right direction.

Support independent journalism in Israel/Palestine Donate to +972 Magazine today
View article: AAA
Share article
Print article
  • LEAVE A COMMENT

    * Required

    COMMENTS

    1. bob wisby

      “The official estimated that the Americans are reluctant to confront Netanyahu on the Palestinian front after doing so on Iran, and to a lesser extent, on Syria.”

      Translation: The Israelis didn’t get two bloodbaths they had requested, so it was felt best to allow them to continue taking out their insane rage on Palestinians, who don’t have an army and who anyway, nobody cares about.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ginger Eis

        You have successfully filled up the other threads with your obnoxious, abhorrent, repulsive and most importantly unresponsive comments and moved on to this thread with the same old, tired, recycled nauseating rants. This time you go from the speculations of an “official” who – in TRUTH – is NOT an “official” (of anyone but himself) to disgusting libelous rants. Number of arguments made = zero. Number of new ideas offered = zero. Creativity = zero. What a waste!

        Reply to Comment
        • bob wisby

          “obnoxious abhorrent, repulsive nauseating”
          But tell me what you really think, Ginger.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ginger Eis

            I have already made myself abundantly clear. Beyond that:(1) Noam Sheizaf’s article is not worth the paper it is written on because (a) it is based ENTIRELY on pure speculations (of someone with an agenda) and as such NOT the “analysis” it purports to be; (b) the “officials” Noam Sheizaf relied on are not Palestinian-, American-, Israeli- or anyone else’s officials and as such are not more knowledgeable than any of us re: what is going on with the negotiations, etc.; (2) Israel neither “requested-” nor wants or encourages “bloodbaths”; On the contrary, Israel treats hundreds of Syrian refugees and war wounded in Israeli hospitals for FREE; daily Israeli social workers cross into Jordan to provide food, medicine and clothing to Syrian refugees (something the Int. media ignores). (3) Israel has no “rage”, let alone “insane rage” that it takes out on Palestinians or anyone else; etc. Israel welcomes fierce criticisms but what you do amounts to irrational, brutish, frenzied attack with the goal to smear, mislead and damage. Why? What happened b/w you and Israel? Why so much hate?

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            (…it is based ENTIRELY on pure speculations (of someone with an agenda)…)
            Doesn’t everyone have an agenda, Ginger? Except you, of course.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “obnoxious abhorrent, repulsive nauseating”
            But tell me what you really think, Ginger.”

            Here is an example of an obnoxious comment, Wisby style, I quote what he (Bob Wisby) said to me in the beginning of the thread (click on the link):

            http://972mag.com/how-eu-money-enables-israel-to-continue-the-occupation-avoid-its-consequences/87583/

            “The problem is, Tzutzik, (as far as I can see it anyway) is that when we try to deny involvement in human trafficking, organ theft, drug dealing etc…we make ourselves look silly. If we were to simply ‘man up’ and say, “Yeah, that’s what we do, who’s gonna stop us? We’ve got guns now…” we’d look a lot more honest. And really, why pretend that these activities are immoral? Because Jesus said so? How long must we Jews labor under the yoke of a foreign, alien set of ethics? All this namby pamby ‘human rights’ nonsense just doesn’t suit our people, Tzutzik. Time to come out loud and proud. What would Aaron Lopez (the wealthiest, most important of New Englands 18th Century slave traders) say, if he could see his fellow Jews today, tangling themselves in knots trying to pretend to share a value system with the goyim?”

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Note that he, our Bob, is pretending to be Jewish, just to maximise the impression that he is trying to create …

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Apparently Bob “…is pretending to be Jewish, just to maximise the impression…”
            Because as we all know, whatever a Jew writes or says has much more weight and importance than the thoughts of non-Jews, right? What a narcissistic cult.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Because as we all know, whatever a Jew writes or says has much more weight and importance than the thoughts of non-Jews, right? What a narcissistic cult.”

            You have an inferiority complex my man. It is all in YOUR head only.

            Go see a shrink Bob.

            PS
            By the way, who is the “WE” that you are talking about? Your Nazi friends, Bob?

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            I make an exception in your case, Tzutzik. You prove as incorrect the old, self-serving canard about ‘Jewish’ intelligence.
            But seriously, I’d appreciate your ignoring my comments from now on. I would prefer to engage with sensible people.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            ““Because as we all know, whatever a Jew writes or says has much more weight and importance than the thoughts of non-Jews, right? What a narcissistic cult.”

            No silly, because by pretending to be Jewish and slagging Jews, you sound more convincing. People say, no sane person would invent lies about themselves.

            PS
            Your use of the word “cult” to describe Jews just lends further weight to my claim about you Bisby.

            Reply to Comment
    2. What is happening is that the US is accepting the inevitability of Greater Israel without a plan for allowing the Palestinian bantu to grow economically. Two States shunts questions of development aside in the false belief that paper institutions will solve that problem. Abbas has only his nationalist tool set left, and it has been rendered ineffectual, so perhaps he did storm out of that Kerry meeting. The great danger, perhaps another inevitability, is that Abbas’ PA can not monopolize nationalism, leading to violence.

      The mistake One Staters have made is arguing for a binational State with full equality. Since the Israeli political process will not abide that option, One State and Two States are both dead, leaving Greater Israel. A confederation for economic development is lost, leading to a structural tension which ultimate will explode, in my guess.

      Reply to Comment
    3. mt noise

      “Also, Israel will not be required to recognize its responsibility for the refugee problem, and almost no refugees would be allowed to return”

      What responsibility is that? Israel has none. Does India or Pakistan have a responsibility for the population transfers from partition? Oh that’s right there are none because they were settled in the respective countries like the Pals should have been.

      Reply to Comment
      • hdave

        If you were kicked out of your home tomorrow, you’d support your right of return, and you’d be correct to – idon’t know what ethnicity you are and i don’t care, it’s you inalienable right to return to your home.

        Either right of return is a universal principle that applies to all human beings, or you believe it is something that only applies to certain ethnicities. This either makes you a racist, a liar or a potentially homeless man. Which are you?

        Reply to Comment
    4. shachalnur

      One for the history books;

      Ketchup-head Kerry yesterday:

      “You don’t just invade a country on phony pretext in order to assert your interest”

      Of course there will be no peace agreement brokered by this twit in the Middle East.

      Keep your eyes on Ukraine,Syria and the war between BRICS and the London Bankers,that’s where the future of Israel,the Middle East and Judaism is being decided.

      Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        Another one for the history books,they’re coming thick and fast nowadays:

        London Banker slave,US Treasury Secretary Jack Lew at AIPAC congress:

        “And as everyone here recognizes,the future of the United States is tied to the future of Israel…”.

        Does anybody want the future of Israel to be connected to an imploding London Banker-occupied nation half a world away?

        Where’s your loyalty Mr.Lew?

        Reply to Comment
        • bob wisby

          “Where’s your loyalty Mr.Lew?”

          Is there ever any doubt?

          Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            I call it the Triple loyalty problem.

            Are certain Jews US-first, Israel/Judaism-First or London Banker-First?

            “Russia will abandon the US Dollar as a reserve currency if the United States initiates sanctions against the Russian Federation,Presidential Advisor Sergey Glazyev told Ria Novosti agency.”(RT today)

            I’m watching closely which Jews are collaborating with the Neo-Nazi takeover of Ukraine,since this event will out all the London Banker Jews.

            Victoria Nudelman(Nuland)married to a co-founder of PNAC is one of them,one of the Ukrainian oligarchs Oleg Kolomoisky,new governor of Dnepropetrovsk is another.

            Israeli press is not too enthousiatic about this Fascist coup,and that doesn’t surprise me,because lately actions by certain Banker Jews are seen as not in israel’s interest.

            The war is BRICS against London Bankers,and the developments in Ukraine could easily lead to a direct confrontation between US/Europe and Russia/China.

            Reactions from Europe show they are not prepared for this stand-off,rekindling memories of WW1.

            This stand-off will show openly what part of Judaism is Banker controlled.

            The Russians ,and many other countries in the area and the world know Russia is in open confrontation with the London Bankers now.

            Just as the unmasking of AIPAC,the outing of London Banker Jews is near.

            As you know ,I see these London Banker Jews as a greater threat to Israel/Judaism than all Arabs and so-called anti-Semites together.

            It’s the same group of Jews that facilitated the Holocaust.

            Reply to Comment
          • winston smith

            Oh, no, shachalnur. Now you’ve gone too far.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Mr.Smith,

            I didn’t go far enough for you untill now?

            Certain people follow the real war,not the rubbish the MSM are feeding us.

            Reply to Comment
          • winston smith

            Where does Israel stand, economically, in all of this? Will Israelis suffer?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Mr.Smith,

            Israel’s situation is not as bad as it was in June2012,when the Bankers wanted to release their masterplan for the Middle East ,but Israel saw it coming,and took precautions.

            I’ll try to illustrate where Israel stood before June 2012 with a story.

            The ones that came before founded a city in the Land in 1909,and proudly named the main street in their new city “The Street of the People”(Rechov Ha’am).

            After their independance;”Later,the inhabitants requested(super-sic)it to be renamed in honor of(A French Banker).(This sentence is straight out of Wiki)

            What people ,after millenia of exile,would REQUEST “The People” to be replaced by a Banker none of the inhabitants ever heard about?

            What”People”would voluntarily request their own enslavement?

            These monsters love to hide their actions in plain view through symbolism,as they’ve been doing for 250 years.

            Judaism has been enslaved in 1897,and Israel is just one of their creations/weapons,and Israel found out in June 2012 she was gonna be sacrificed for a higher goal.

            Nowadays the Bankers have lost control over Israel,so Israel has a good chance.

            The most dangerous situation for Israel is the effort of the Bankers to blow up Syria,and everybody,including Israel,are trying to stop this scenario.

            The real war is invisble,the visible war is an illusion.

            Reply to Comment
          • winston smith

            “The real war is invisble,the visible war is an illusion”

            That’s pretty much what I thought.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Oops,it’s not just a threat.

            ITAR-TASS;”Finance ministry suspends foreign currency purchases for Reserve Fund as of 4th of March”.

            All wars are Banker wars.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            I am no defender of bankers. But to pretend that all bankers are Jewish is a bit silly.

            And if they are not all Jewish and there is a banker war them one would have to assume that both Jewish and non Jewish bankers are involved in it.

            This blaming of Jews about everything that goes wrong in the world is really tiresome. Not that no Jew is ever involved in bad things. But hey, usually when they are, they are in good company. There are plenty of non Jews who get up to plenty of mischief, usually to protect their own interests. They don’t represent anyone other than themselves, be they are Jews, Christians, atheists or anyone else.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            If you read carefully ,you’ll see I never claimed all Bankers are Jews.

            Neither did I claim that all power is in the hands of Bankers.

            There’s oil,science,arms,pharma,to name the most important ones.

            But the London Bankers are the head of the snake,the rest collaborate and execute.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Actually, Shachalnur, you did say this:

            “I’m watching closely which Jews are collaborating with the Neo-Nazi takeover of Ukraine,since this event will out all the London Banker Jews.”

            I would suggest that there is no point in mentioning what religion they are. One never hears a statement like “Christian bankers” or “Atheist bankers” when such people may be involved in something nefarious.

            Of course, if Jewish bankers are involved in such things as part of a general Jewish conspiracy, then you would be right to mention their Jewishness. I don’t think you are saying such a thing though are you?

            Judging by the way you are claiming that they propose/d to sacrifice Israel for their own selfish ends, I don’t think that you claim that their actions are a Jewish conspiracy. But your language may give the wrong impression to people who want to believe in Jewish conspiracies or people who don’t read things carefully.

            What I am trying to say is that language is dangerous. Language can even kill so you have to be a bit more rigorous when you post something like this in a public blog. Think about it.

            Reply to Comment
          • jerrold levy

            “language is dangerous” I would agree. They say ‘The pen is mightier than the sword’. But is money mightier than either?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            They are both mighty. They are both toolsets that can achieve aims.

            To me, the question is akin to asking which tool is more important, the hammer or the screwdriver? The answer is it depends which task one is trying to accomplish. And often both tools are required to do the overall job. Same with money and words.

            Reply to Comment
          • jerrold levy

            Thanks for responding. I would argue though, that money is tops in terms of power. With money, writers and armies can be bought. Governments are made of people and people can be bought with money.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            And vice versa. Well thought out Wordsmithing (for want of a better word) can generate money.

            It can recruit supporters and convince people to donate money to the cause.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            “language is dangerous”

            Like;Most London Bankers are Jews.

            Sure ,so is playing games with words,like; The People “requesting”to be replaced by a Banker.

            Like; talking about the Bankers is “anti-Semitism”.

            Like, very powerfull people playing around with name-changes and symbolism that tells a story of enslavement and mass murder.

            The truth is never dangerous,and if Jews are involved in mass murder,including Jews, it has to be said.

            That this is news to many (non)Jews is not my fault,and I will not be silent because of the “danger of words”.

            I refuse to be part of this criminal gang that enslaved Jews and mass murders Jews and non-Jews alike.

            Did you figure out the riddle of “The requesting People?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            And think about this one;

            I once put all my proof in front of a few scolarly Jews and they had to admit that it looks like my view could be correct.

            Most were stanch Zionists and religious,the ones that are more open to the truth than lefty liberal secular Jews,and finally one gave me an explantion for this;

            “Everything is the will of Hashem,even if there’s a (Jewish)Banker conspiracy,and without it the Jews wouldn’t be in Israel now,even if they collaborated with the ones that perpetrated the Holocaust,because it’s the will of Hashem.”

            Well,that’s settled then.

            It’s actually (religous) Zionists that are more open to this narrative of Banker enslavement,than secular lefties who will scream “anti-Semite” whenever you mention their names.

            That’s how mind control works.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            For people who want to know what the Ukraine stand-off is all about; It’s just another Banker War.

            read ;Altheadlines

            “Russia threatens to abandon the US Dollar and start dumping US debt”.

            Please notice there seems to be trouble in paradise ,where the forces in London/EU and the US are not in sync.

            Many think this is an indication there’s a split at the top,with the US tentakel going full throttle for Leon Strauss’ Chaos theory.

            Pushing this neo-Nazi coup in the Ukraine will cause most damage to Europe and Russia,only if China chips in it will mean global collapse.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Hold on there Shachalnur. Show me where I accused YOU of antisemitism? All I said was that words are dangerous and I stand by that.

            I too prefer to hear the truth. Read my post again. I said that in situations where it can be proven that Jewish leaders who are actually are our representatives (elected or recognised) are involved in conspiracies on behalf of the Jewish people (rather than just to line their own pockets), I said that it is valid to call such things JEWISH conspiracies.

            But when a conspiracy exists to just further the private greed of an individual or the narrow interests of a few then the religion of a perpetrator is entirely irrelevant. As I said, never in the history of minkind have I heard the term Christian banker or atheist banker arrested or accused of conspiracy. Why is it only necessary to add the word “Jewish” banker conspiracy when Jew/s are being involved? Don’t you know that it is a dog whistle to all the nut jobs and malevolent Jew haters who immediately proceed to blame (and often not just blame but actually do harm) all Jews for such conspiracies? Why feed an already well nourished hate industry against us?

            Relevance is the key word. And in some cases, the religion of a criminal or criminals is just not relevant. In other cases it may be. That is all I was saying and in this case that you mention, it appears to me as non relevant. Think about it.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            I don’t think you accused me of anti-Semitism.

            My point is that if The People “request”to be enslaved,and I(and you)am part of The People,I would like to know who this Pharao is,why The People would like to be enslaved by them,what the Pharao’s religion is,and what’s the color of his underwear.

            To refuse asking these questions indicates that you don’t mind being a slave because of the power and money,and Land it brings you in the short term.

            You should know there’s a price to pay if you sell your soul to the devil.

            This Pharao has much bigger plans than temporarily supporting and using Israel and Judaism,and there’s nothing “Jewish” about what he is planning,unless you agree with anti-Semitic views of world domination by the Jews.

            If Jews don’t recognize their slavery and don’t dump the Pharao it will be the end of Judaism as we know it before the Pharao took over..

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            I am sorry Shakhalnur but I am not buying the Counterpunch view of the world.

            It sounds to me that “the London Jewish Bankers” that you are pointing to are fabulously wealthy and with lots of influence. And you say they helped create Nazism and the holocaust? Why? To increase their wealth further? Let’s pretend that it is so.

            But we all know that the Nazis came within a hair breadth of actually winning the war. If so, then what would have happened to these Jewish Bankers? They certainly would have lost most of their wealth and influence and maybe even their lives.

            Or do you think Hitler would have made them court Jews? Why? He could simply just confiscate their wealth so why would he bother? Unless of course you believe that Hitler’s hate of Jews was only pretence?

            From what I know of Bankers, they tend to be cautious and conservative. So for them to create a monster like Nazism in order to convince us Jews to migrate to Palestine, would be an enormous gamble. Why would they take such a risk? To multiply their already large wealth? It just does not add up.

            In any case, the whole premise is built on the idea that prior to Nazism, there was not much hate anymore in Europe against Jews. That is just utter nonsense. What about the expulsion of Jews from spain in 1492? What about the inquisition? What about the pogroms? What about the crusades? What about the medieval blood libels? Nazism didn’t even exist and the clouds were gathering against Europe’s Jews centuries before Nazism.

            Really Shakhalnur, I believe the Counterpunch nonsense as much as I believe in a Hollywood B grade movie called invasion of the body snatchers.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            I don’t know what the counterpunch view of the world is,because I don’t read that site,maybe some articles they post,when I follow a link on sites I do read.

            As for the rest,I already gave you an essay to read from a Jewish British writer called Anton Chaitkin “Rockefeller and mass murder”.

            There you can read that 1. the Bankers were up to their necks into supporting and financing Hitler,and 2. the main collaborators were not only Jews.

            You presume all kinds of stuff about the Bankers and WW2 ,but if you don’t read any (alternative)sources you’ll be in the dark.

            I represent nobody’s views,only my own,through research of mainly Jewish sources.

            That there are many others(amongst them Jews) that came ,more or less,to the same conclusion,is not my fault.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            First, let me state where I am in agreement with you. There ARE bad, as well as good, people, or groups of people out there who ARE powerful and who conspire to get things their own way and which are sometimes, maybe often, are against the interests of the majority.

            After that, our views diverge.

            Unlike you, I don’t believe that one group are a kind of chess masters who outplay everyone else and reign supreme, for generations, over all the other vested interests with a myriad of divergent views and interests who all jockey for power and influence.

            And even in the unlikely event that there would be such a clever and successful group who outplay everyone else all the time, they wouldn’t be so clever that they would be able to predict and control everything. Shakhalnur, you seem to think thet humanity including us Jews, are kettle and sheep who can be herded. Yes, up to a point we can. We humans can be herded so long as we perceive that our interests are not being totally ignored but if we perceive otherwise, at some point after we feel that we are being trampled, we become more like cats. Have you ever tried herding cats Shachalnur?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            You bet the Farmer can herd.

            The cattle loves ,and does, the trampling.

            Cats can not be herded,curiosity might kill them,though.

            Move along now,nothing to see here.

            Reply to Comment
    5. Click here to load previous comments