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Settler violence and IDF collusion deny Palestinians the fruits of their harvest

Stolen fruit, destroyed trees and harassment by the army and settlers wreak havoc with the yearly olive harvest, an essential source of subsistence for West Bank Palestinians.

By Yossi Gurvitz, for Yesh Din

A girl from the West Bank town of Awarta harvests her family's olives in the midst of frequent patrols by the Israeli military, October 13, 2012. Because the Israeli settlement Itamar lies on a neaby hilltop, the residents of Awarta are forced to coordinate permission to harvest their olives from Israeli authorities.

A girl from the West Bank town of Awarta harvests her family’s olives in the midst of frequent patrols by the Israeli military, October 13, 2012. Because the Israeli settlement Itamar lies on a neaby hilltop, the residents of Awarta are forced to coordinate permission to harvest their olives from Israeli authorities.

“The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up” (Deuteronomy 28:33)

“I’ve been taking care of my trees for 31 years. These are my trees, I planted them, they’re like my children,” says Ali Taher Ali Salah. He is standing in his toy shop in the village of A-Sawiya, watching the children coming and going, buying toys that cost a shekel each. Not far away, near a military base, are his olive groves. We visited him at the height of the olive harvest season in early November. Palestinians rely greatly on the olives and the oil they make from it for their livelihood. Some two months ago, before the official beginning of the harvest, Salah saw children — not much older than the ones who frequent his store — stealing the fruit from his trees, filling one sack after another. “I see them harvesting the olives, putting a sack under the tree. Can you imagine how hard it is for me to see someone else harvesting my trees, and I can’t walk over to him and ask ‘what are you doing?'”

Salah’s grove is located next to another grove that had been looted two weeks earlier. In this case the police arrived on the scene, but made it too late. In Salah’s case, the cops caught the minors red-handed and returned his olives to him, but the case against the thieves was closed due to their young age.

As far as Salah is concerned, the legal side is less important. The impotence by which a person sees his labor stolen before his eyes and can do nothing about it repeats itself time and again. “This should be difficult for me, but also for the State of Israel,” he says.

The latest information sheet we published regarding the olive harvest shows that the State of Israel does not care all that much. The military authorities claim they will permit the Palestinians to harvest their groves “until the last olive” — a policy they are beholden to by a High Court of Justice ruling handed down in the Murad case (Hebrew) only 12 years ago. But the reality is that all too often invisible hands reach the Palestinians’ groves, and Palestinians are often prevented from reaching them for the rest of the year. In the harvest seasons 2013-2015 Yesh Din documented 10 cases of harvest theft.

“Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shall not anoint thyself with the oil” (ibid, 40)

A short drive south from Salah’s shop brings us to the fields of Ahmed Sabah Fares Abu Nijmah from the village of Qarayut, near the settlement of Eli. He, too, saw Israeli civilians stealing his olives. Abu Nijmah is convinced the army is preventing him access to his trees before the settlers get to them, so as to allow them to get at them first. But he knows this is not the real problem: that lies with the dependency of the Palestinian farmers on the IDF’s strict permit policy, as described in the data sheet.

As Israeli settlers look on from above, Israeli soldiers arrest two Palestinians and an international solidarity activist after settlers interfered with a Palestinian family harvesting olives, Hebron, West Bank, October 22, 2012. (Activestills)

As Israeli settlers look on from above, Israeli soldiers arrest two Palestinians and an international solidarity activist after settlers interfered with a Palestinian family harvesting olives, Hebron, West Bank, October 22, 2012. (Activestills)

Almost all the agricultural land owned by Palestinians is in Area C, which is under full Israeli military control. Eighty-three percent of the land in Area C was allocated by the government to settlements. Illegal outposts have taken much more of that land. Palestinians are prohibited from entering these territories. This the formal side of the prohibition; the less formal is that of the ideological violence whose purpose is to expel the Palestinians from land they still have access to.

The main source of the problem is the army. It is the army that prevents Palestinians from accessing their land, and it is the army that does not protect Palestinian farmers suffering from settler violence — contrary to its duty under international law and High Court rulings. It is the army that limits Palestinian farmers to a small number of days in which they can reach their land.

Abu Nijmah noted that the harvest’s plowing season is in April. Plowing is essential to cultivate the trees and to air the soil. He received a permit to reach the land in August. “What’s the point of plowing in August? I’m ruining the trees,” he said.

By his estimates, prior to the Second Intifada he would produce a drum to two drums of oil from each tree. Since then, due to his inability to reach the trees and cultivate them properly, the output was reduced to about half a drum per tree. He has another plot of land, which he makes a point of visiting and cultivating: “Even if they kill me, I won’t leave it,” he said. These are ancient trees, which the Palestinians call Roman trees. His father planted them in 1940.

Recently he was met in the field by one of the Israeli civilian security coordinators (CSC). The CSC asked him what he was doing there — Abu Nijmah replied that he consistently plows the place and was never harassed there. The CSC pulled out his tablet, checked, and said “OK, I won’t touch you. Do whatever you want to do.” Abu Nijmah laughs: “This is what he said this year. Who knows what he’ll say next year?”

Masked settlers are seen descending from Yitzhar toward Palestinian olive growers on the lands of Burin, October 20, 2013. (Photo: Munir Qadus / Yesh Din)

Masked settlers are seen descending from Yitzhar toward Palestinian olive growers on the lands of Burin, October 20, 2013. (Photo: Munir Qadus / Yesh Din)

“And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee, and…thou shalt have none assurance of thy life” (ibid, 66)

Near Abu Nijmah’s are fields that belong to Saher Musa Yousef Musa. The pastoral view of the green olive trees is deceiving; this is an invisible battlefield. We meet Musa where villagers used to celebrate the harvest, years ago. This ended when the settlement was built. It’s too dangerous.

The IDF graciously permits him to reach one of his plots twice a year for three days each time. It isn’t enough, but in times of “trouble,” as he puts it, Musa does not use even this time. He is afraid. The trees in one of his plots were uprooted years ago, which he blames on Israeli civilians. The trees grew again but lost much of their quality.

Musa’s case is not unusual. In recent years, Yesh Din opened 25 cases dealing with incidents of destruction of trees, which took place or were discovered during the harvest season or close to it. The cases document 23 events of burning, cutting or poisoning of trees. Six hundred trees were found cut down; hundreds more were burned.

This year, Musa hoped that the harvest would pass peacefully. At the beginning of October he reached his land with his son and sisters; they harvested olives most of the day, and when they reached the last tree, Musa suddenly heard a voice saying “go away” in Hebrew. Musa replied that he wanted to finish harvesting the tree. The man, an Israeli known to Musa, began smashing the windows of Musa’s car, before slashing its tires.

“The settlers can kill me,” he says. He does not trust the army to protect him. “There’s no difference between the military and the settlers here. Press charges? What’s the point? To whom should you complain, when the judge is the enemy?”

Neither he nor Abu Nijmah have any illusions: the problem is not the settler outlaws, but law enforcement and the army’s permit regime: “Every time you see a settler close to you, take a good look. There’s a soldier behind him, guarding him. There’s no difference here between the soldiers and the settlers.”

So it goes.

Written by Yossi Gurvitz in his capacity as a blogger for Yesh Din, Volunteers for Human Rights. A version of this post was first published on Yesh Din’s blog.

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    1. Carmen

      “The settlers can kill me,” he says. He does not trust the army to protect him. “There’s no difference between the military and the settlers here. Press charges? What’s the point? To whom should you complain, when the judge is the enemy?”

      Imagine the outrage if it were jews that were the victim of palestinian looting, burning and destruction of their olive trees, their livelihood, and the thieves/criminals were protected by a palestinian occupation force who were also protected by palestinian judges and laws. Hideous, right? What good is international law if an international court does nothing to the criminals? Laws created and not enforced is a sick, shameful and cynical joke. The international court and the U.N. are complicit in israeli crimes against humanity. I guess the expression ‘never again’ only applies to certain types of humanity and not all?

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Context is everything.

        There were frequent major Arab Terrorist Attacks against Israelis, since 1948 and prior to the 1967 Six-Day War”.[38][39]Between 1951 and 1956, 400 Israelis were killed and 900 wounded by fedayeen attacks.;[40][41

        Then came the 1967 war which ended in the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. The PLO declared that:

        “Our basic aim is to liberate the land from the Mediterranean Seas to the Jordan River. We are not concerned with what took place in June 1967 or in eliminating the consequences of the June war. The Palestinian revolution’s basic concern is the uprooting of the Zionist entity from our land and liberating it.”

        In other words, the PLO’s self declared aim was still the destruction of the Jewish state. And they have not amended their charter to this day despite promising to do so as part of the Oslo peace process. They have not kept their written promise in a letter sent to President Clinton.

        To this day, instead of signing a peace deal based on compromise (giving up the so called right of return demand), the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza still imagine that they can force Israel’s hand by committing terrorist acts against Israeli civilians:

        Most suicide bombers in the Middle East are chosen as teenagers, educated, and then sent off to blow themselves up when they are in their late teens or early to mid-twenties.[citation needed] There have been instances where Palestinian children were involved in attacks, either as child suicide bombers or bomb transporters. On March 16, 2005, an Israeli border guard found a bomb in the school bag of 12-year-old Abdullah Quran at a military checkpoint near Nablus. His life was saved only because a cell phone rigged to detonate the 13-pound bomb failed to set off the explosive at the checkpoint as it had been designed to do. Eight days later, on 24, March 16-year-old Hussam Abdo was captured wearing an explosive belt, having allegedly been paid by Fatah’s Tanzim branch to blow himself up at the same checkpoint.

        So the occupation continues. And yes, Israelis have hot heads who take matters into their own hands. And yes, the Israeli army is not as harsh in their dealings with Jewish law breakers but serious law breakers are prosecuted and are punished by Israeli courts.

        Contrast that to the attitudes of the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza. They send their children to murder Jews and celebrate “martyrdom operations” whenever they are successful. And the PLO demands the release of convicted terrorists in exchange for a willingness to negotiate.

        That is the context. Neither side is perfect in this no holds barred battle of wills. But which side has started this war? Which side insists on continuing this war and refuses to sign a peace deal? The Arab side of course. So bad things happen to both sides but nowhere near as bad as when Arabs are the strong party. Anyone who doubts it, needs to look at Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Lybia, ISISand the old civil war in Lebanon. In those wars, hundreds of thousands die and there are millions of refugees. As badly as Israel handles things at times, at least the number of dead on both sides pales into insignificance compared to the suffering, death and destruction that the Arabs would be likely to cause if they would be the strong party in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

        Reply to Comment
        • Kev

          Context is everything.

          If you look at the history, you can see that the context is that a people (Jews)
          inhabited a land millennia ago, but for the last 2,000 years or so have not had
          any sovereignty over the land, a land that they themselves allegedly acquired (according to their own religious texts) through ethnic cleansing and genocide.

          A terrible tragedy occurred to this people (Holocaust), who had largely migrated away from the lands that they had once conquered (Diaspora) and were now living in Europe and other lands. But even prior to this tragedy, a large movement was taking place with this people and their religious leaders to try to regain the lands that they had left so many centuries ago because they felt that their god had given them these lands. There was some positive support from some colonialist European countries to
          support this movement, perhaps also for religious reasons.

          When all of this came to a head, around WWI, well before WWII, with the fall of the Ottoman Empire and with the Balfour declaration, the people living in the area that was to suddenly be claimed by the Jews, and only for the Jews, naturally resisted, as they had been living there for centuries. So when the Jews came in from Europe and brought their cousins in from other states, these other people (Arab Palestinians) naturally resisted the invasion and loss of their homes and their livelihood. They were not successful, and over 500 Arab villages in Israel (1948) were demolished, over 700,000 Arabs were driven out and became refugees. In some cases, during the invasion, Arab civilians were lined up against the walls and shot by Jewish militia who would soon become IDF regulars and some of their commanders would be elected to high positions in the government of the new state of Israel.

          The modern state of Israel was conceived in sin (Balfour), born in sin (Nakba), continued to sin (1967, refusal to allow return of refugees, etc.), and continues to this day to sin (the occupation, the siege on Gaza, administrative detention, etc).

          Yet Israel pretends to be a democracy.

          Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            And pretend there is no context whatsoever for Palestinian resistance to this theft, occupation, apartheid, false arrests, summary executions, rape, murder, destruction of property including livestock, olive trees, crops, way of life, restricted access to water,lack of freedom of mobility, being cut off from family members in other towns, endless hours spent in checkpoints, IOF ‘friction activity’, etc., etc., etc., and to top it all off, the denial by many zionists of Palestinians as a people who were living in Palestine for centuries before the catastrophe in europe, which they had absolutely nothing to do with, but have been punished for it ever since. Context is real important.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            http://m.jpost.com/#article=6017RTREQjc2Q0Q4ODhDNENGQzlDQ0U5RUMyQjJFRjQ3MkY=

            Israel was not “created and founded,” artificially and out-of-the-blue, in 1948 — but rather, Israel re-attained its independence that year as the natural fruition into statehood of the once-sovereign homeland of the Jewish people, who — over almost two millennia of continuous foreign invader and empire rule — never deserted that home, despite all attempts to eradicate them.

            Reply to Comment
          • carmen

            The jewish population in palestine was less than 5% of the total population, overwhelmingly muslim (94%) and christian Palestinians. So only until the zionist enterprise got into full stealth mode, the balfour declaration, and the tactics of the future leaders of the zionist enterprise; only until there were enough jews with enough backing with money and weapons, the british colonizers turned a blind eye and decided it was time to go since because of zionist terrorism, did the zionist amass an army, train it and use it to forcefully remove as much of the palestinian population it could from their land and their homes, murdering and raping all in the name of legitimizing the creation of a jewish ethnoreligious ‘democratic’ state. No, it didn’t just happen in 1948; it took a good 30-40 years of planning.

            The ancient hebrews, according to the story, did nothing but antagonize their god and were driven out becauase of their idolatrous ways.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Yea, all of 350,000 back in 1850 when many of the Jewish refugees from pogroms started to return and join Jews who never left and lived in Palestine before Arabs were even heard of.

            Oh and by 1947 when the UN partitioned Palestine, the Jewish population was a third of the population. A much greater proportion than the Muslim population of India (12%) but which was also partitioned. Yet nobody today questions the right of Pakistan to exist. Nor does anyone insist that Pakistan and India has to accept the return of millions of Hindu and Muslim refugees. Why is Israel a special case? Because Jews are involved? Not enough room in Arab countries to settle Arab refugees from Palestine? Funny that, Israel, a much smaller country than the combined Arab world, has settled 1 million Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Oh and the violence and terrorism was definitely started by the Arabs, not the Jews. The Hebron massacre and a similar massacre of Jews in Zefat occurred in 1929. The Hganah was started after that shameful episode in response to the massacre. And the Irgun and it’s terror campaign started much later.

            Oh and again in 1947, it was the Arabs who rioted in response to UN resolution 181 to partition Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. Sure, the Jews responded in kind and went on the offensive. And yes, the Nakba occurred. And there was another nakba too which you people never mention. The Nakba of Jews in Arab countries most of whom ended up in Israel.

            I know you are going to deny all this and mix up the sequence of dates about who did what to whom and when. But all main stream history books verify what I said above. I’ll leave it to more honest people than yourself, Carmen, to verify it for themselves.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            Interesting fact that is never mentioned by AJew or any of his/her sock puppets.
            435 Jews Were Saved By 19 Arab Families: The Other Side Of The …
            mepeace.org/forum/…/435-jews-were-saved-by-19-arab-families-the-other-side-of-th

            There is no thank you to the families who risked their lives saving the lives of their jewish neighbors, nothing. Gustav/AJew/sock puppets never ever acknowledge this, not to mentioned the settler filth living in Hebron now. How much different a turn could history have taken if there had been a public demonstration of thanks and gratitude to these families? If the zionist state were to begin to treat Palestinians like they themselves expect/want to be treated, would we even be having any of these dicussions now? No point. The zionists were on a steady course to change the face of Palestine and demonstrating any thanks to these arab families or any arabs wouldn’t have mixed with their plan for ethnic cleansing. Hasbara on Gustav/AJew/him/her/whomever you are today.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Yes Carmen. The problem was that us evil Zionists forgot to thank the decent Arabs for saving innocent Jewish families who were also being targeted by other Arabs to be massacred.

            The massacre itself was not a problem, then or now, for Arabs like you.

            I rest my case.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            You rest your case (code for I give up!)? It’s about freakin’ time too. It must be exhausting lugging around all that hasbara in your trunk. Get it – wooly mammoth – trunk? Oh that’s right, I don’t have a sense of humor. Oy vey.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            No lady we will only give up in your dream (yes we). We are back and we are here to stay. Like it or lump it.

            As to whether I give up on this site talking to the wall and to bots like you and your cronies, we will just have to see. Maybe if I see you lot frustrated enough, I may. I certainly sense desperation from your flock already. You and YOUR sock puppets (Kev, Ray, Ben, Betz and who else?) are throwing everything at me but the kitchen sink and one lone AJew (me) is making you lot sweat like there is no tomorrow. Hah 😛

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “You and YOUR sock puppets (Kev, Ray, Ben, Betz and who else?) are throwing everything at me but the kitchen sink and one lone AJew (me) is making you lot sweat like there is no tomorrow. Hah ”

            They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but with you it’s likely because you don’t have any original thoughts. Like tRUMP claiming the elections were fixed and the ‘lying media’ was against him, but he won, he not only won, it was a “landslide” victory. And he’s the end of the u.s., just like zionists will be the end of this. Congratulations for helping that process along!!!

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Zionist Sock puppets on this thread: there is me, me and me…

            Then there are anti Zionist sock puppets: Carmen, Kev, Ray, Betz, Ben. Hands up the real people. The rest are bots and aliases. Some of them do sound the same. At least one other seems to be totally disconnected. What a desperate lot. They want so badly to be right all the time. Even when they are wrong.

            Oh and Carmen loves this type of conversation. Inane tit for tat insults instead of serious and honest debate. So, I guess I too have to engage in this sort of nonsense. Otherwise she would be liable to crow too much and would be annoying. This way, not so much 😋

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “Funny that, Israel, a much smaller country than the combined Arab world, has settled 1 million Jewish refugees from Arab countries.”

            Broadcasting fear and false flags in arab countries to frighten jews to come to israel so they can become 3rd class citizens and remain at the bottom of israel ashkenazi society isn’t something to brag about, but is the zionist state’s shame.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Yes lady. One million Jews in Arab lands dropped everything, left all their assets behind all at once fled from their homes and where they lived, for no other reason than because of false flag operations and fear mongering. The local Arabs and their governments had nothing to do with their leaving. And you don’t live in lah lah land with little gnomes in the back of the garden and where pigs fly and pink elephants roam and the earth is flat. 1001 night Arabian stories anyone 😛 ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            This has been written about for years, but note the pushback from ‘patriots’ like AJew – must have struck a nerve. Of course, like all antizionists, Naem Giladi was vilified in life and in death, as he will be by Gustav. 🙂

            False Flag Attacks By Zionists Against Fellow Jews | Veterans Today
            http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/01/…/false-flag-attacks-by-zionists-against-fellow-jews/

            What follows is a timeline of events in Baghdad excerpted from a book written and published in the 1990s by an Iraqi Jew named Naeim Giladi. I’ll say a little bit more below about who Giladi was, but for right now just consider the timeline as he presents it:

            Six months later-the exact date was March 19, 1950-a bomb went off at the American Cultural Center and Library in Baghdad, causing property damage and injuring a number of people. The center was a favorite meeting place for young Jews.

            The first bomb thrown directly at Jews occurred on April 8, 1950, at 9:15 p.m. A car with three young passengers hurled the grenade at Baghdad’s El-Dar El-Bida Café, where Jews were celebrating Passover. Four people were seriously injured. That night leaflets were distributed calling on Jews to leave Iraq immediately.

            The next day, many Jews, most of them poor with nothing to lose, jammed emigration offices to renounce their citizenship and to apply for permission to leave for Israel. So many applied, in fact, that the police had to open registration offices in Jewish schools and synagogues.

            On May 10, at 3 a.m., a grenade was tossed in the direction of the display window of the Jewish-owned Beit-Lawi Automobile Company, destroying part of the building. No casualties were reported.

            On June 3, 1950, another grenade was tossed from a speeding car in the El-Batawin area of Baghdad where most rich Jews and middle class Iraqis lived. No one was hurt, but following the explosion Zionist activists sent telegrams to Israel requesting that the quota for immigration from Iraq be increased.

            On June 5, at 2:30 a.m., a bomb exploded next to the Jewish owned Stanley Shashua building on El-Rashid street, resulting in property damage but no casualties.

            On January 14, 1951, at 7 p.m., a grenade was thrown at a group of Jews outside the Masouda Shem-Tov Synagogue. The explosive struck a high-voltage cable, electrocuting three Jews, one a young boy, Itzhak Elmacher, and wounding over 30 others. Following the attack, the exodus of Jews jumped to between 600-700 per day.

            Zionist propagandists still maintain that the bombs in Iraq were set off by anti-Jewish Iraqis who wanted Jews out of their country. The terrible truth is that the grenades that killed and maimed Iraqi Jews and damaged their property were thrown by Zionist Jews.

            The paragraphs above come from Giladi’s book, Ben Gurion’s Scandals: How the Haganah and the Mossad Eliminated Jews, originally published in 1992. An except from the book can be found here, and includes details about the Baghdad bombings as well as a number of other interesting items, including Giladi’s own immigration to Palestine and what he witnessed there. You’ll note, in the timeline, his reference to leaflets being distributed on the same day of the April 8 bombing. That leaflet read in part, “Call to the Jews: To all the tribe of Zion living in Babylon.” It goes on to encourage an exodus out of Iraq:

            “For the second time in the history of the diaspora, we have an opportunity to leave. We encourage you to hurry and leave. Today the Jews are in a new era of the history of the diaspora.”

            Giladi was born in Iraq in 1929 and became a committed Zionist in his late teens. Later in life he disavowed Zionism, renounced his Israeli citizenship, and moved to the US. His change of heart began when, as a young Jewish immigrant, shortly after arriving in Israel, he encountered “institutionalized racism,” against both Palestinians as well as Arabic or Mizrahi Jews.

            The principal interest Israel had in Jews from Islamic countries was as a supply of cheap labor, especially for the farm work that was beneath the urbanized Eastern European Jews. Ben Gurion needed the “Oriental” Jews to farm the thousands of acres of land left by Palestinians who were driven out by Israeli forces in 1948.

            At the time in question, the early 1950s, Israel was ethnically cleansing the Ashkelon area and forcing Palestinians who lived there into the Gaza Strip. Farms were indeed taken over, and so, yes, there was a need for cheap labor, and Jews from Iraq provided a good source. And to make sure that the new arrivals were wholly dependent upon their earnings as laborers, Israel saw to it that they were forced, for the most part, to leave their property and possessions behind in Iraq. According to Giladi:

            …the pro-British, pro-Zionist puppet el-Said [Nouri el-Said, the Iraqi prime minister–ed.]saw to it that all of their possessions were frozen, including their cash assets. (There were ways of getting Iraqi dinars out, but when the immigrants went to exchange them in Israel they found that the Israeli government kept 50 percent of the value.) Even those Iraqi Jews who had not registered to emigrate, but who happened to be abroad, faced loss of their nationality if they didn’t return within a specified time. An ancient, cultured, prosperous community had been uprooted and its people transplanted to a land dominated by East European Jews, whose culture was not only foreign but entirely hateful to them.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            According to Carmen, I am the black and white thinker. And she, Carmen is the “truth teller”. Yet, yet, yet….

            I say, yes, as a result of the civil war which the Arabs started when they rioted and attacked Jews randomly after the UN vote to partition Palestine, the Jews went on the offensive and there was a Nakba. Some Arabs in villages located in strategic locations were expelled. Others fled in the same way that civilians in general tend to flee from war zones (see Syria).

            Now compare that to Carmen’s fairy tale. In two of her posts now she is trying to peddle the story that up to one million Jews fled from Arab countries leaving everything they owned behind, purely because of Zionist scare mongering and false flag operations. None of it, Carmen claims, fled because of Arab nationalist incitement against Jews, pogroms against Jews by local Arabs and measures by Arab governments against Jews. Carmen would have one believe that the Arab governments and population behaved in examplary fashion and none of them harmed any Jews. It is all in just the feverish imaginations of us Zionists because Arab peoples and governments never harm minorities. Okey dokey. That’s our nuanced Carmen there for all to see.

            Personally, I wouldn’t buy a used car from the Carmen’s of this world. But hey, I am only a Zionist, right? 😜

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/jew_refugees.html

            There is a paragraph in the above reference about the various Jewish communities in many Arab states describing why they fled. I will just highlight what happened to the Jews of Syria:

            “By 1943, the Jewish community of Syria had approximately 30,000 members but In 1944, after Syria gained independence from France, the new Arab government prohibited Jewish immigration to Palestine, severely restricted the teaching of Hebrew in Jewish schools, called boycotts against Jewish businesses, and sat idle as attacks against Jews escalated. In 1945, in an attempt to thwart international efforts to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine, the Syrian government fully restricted Jewish emigration, burned, looted and confiscated Jewish property, and froze Jewish bank accounts.

            When partition was declared in 1947, Arab mobs in Aleppodevastated the 2,500-year-old Jewish community and left it in ruins. Scores of Jews were killed and more than 200 homes, shops and synagogues were destroyed. Thousands of Jews illegally fled as refugees, 10,000 going to the United States and 5,000 to Israel. All of their property were taken over by the local Muslims.

            Over the next few decades, those Syrian Jews that remained were in effect hostages of a hostile regime as the government intensified its persecution of the Jewish population. Jews were stripped of their citizenship and experienced employment discrimination. They had their assets frozen and property confiscated. The community lived under constant surveillance by the secret police. Freedom of movement was also severely restricted and any Jew who attempted to flee faced either the death penalty or imprisonment at hard labor. Jews could not acquire telephones or driver’s licenses and were barred from buying property. An airport road was paved over the Jewish cemetery in Damascus; Jewish schools were closed and handed over to Muslims.”

            Hard to believe? Why? Just look at what the various Syrian Arab factions do even to each other today. Does anyone doubt that they would be capable of treating Syrian Jews just as badly?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ray

            “Yet nobody today questions the right of Pakistan to exist.”

            Lots of Indians (hard-right wing nationalists who voted for their country’s local Netanyahu) despise Pakistan with a disturbing passion.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Yet nobody today questions the right of Pakistan to exist.”

            “Lots of Indians (hard-right wing nationalists who voted for their country’s local Netanyahu) despise Pakistan with a disturbing passion.”

            Still not following the conversation eh, Ray? So I take it you liken hard-right Indian nationalists to Arabs and their “progressive” allies who object to Israel’s existence?

            Reply to Comment
          • Chris

            The apartheid state of israel never existed before 1948; apartheid israel was artificially created in the land of Palestine, out of whole-cloth between circa 1880 and 1948.

            The apartheid state of israel is the “natural fruition” of the ongoing violent invasion and colonization of the Land of Palestine by foreign Zionists. These indoctrinated foreign Zionist extremest invaders colonizers, terrorists, land thieves, ethnic cleansers and murderers have been attempting to reconstitute their Biblical “once-sovereign homeland of the Jewish people” in the indigenous Palestinian People’s homeland of Palestine since the late 1800s. The indigenous Palestinian People never deserted their homeland of Palestine, despite all attempts by the Zionists to eradicate them.

            [FIFY]

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            😂 Chris huh?

            Another one of Carmen’s sock puppets repeating her lies.

            Any more “progressive” or Arab sock puppets?

            C’mon c’mon wherever you are.

            Oh by the way did you ever hear about one of our more decent Arab Israeli citizens who said the following about Israel?

            http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/28304/Default.aspx

            “The Muslim-Arabs who reside in the State of Israel, as are the Arabic speaking Druze and Christians observe the “Arab Spring” in which hundreds of thousands of Muslim-Arabs are slaughtered daily by fellow Muslim-Arabs; in which neither Christians nor Druze can assume that they live in safety anywhere in the Muslim-Arab world both in the Middle East and North Africa; in which millions of fellow Muslim-Arabs seek refuge, both in and out of the region; realize that safest country in which Muslim-Arabs, as well as Arabic speaking Christians and Druze can live is the sovereign nation-state of the Jewish people, the State of Israel.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Chris

            “Have you ever heard what hasbara sounds like when it’s being spouted by a Zionist quisling, have a listen…”

            [FIFY]

            Oh by the way, did you know that Hitler Honored Jews who fought for Germany:

            http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.602868

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            How many anti-Zionists does it take to change a lightbulb?

            A: None. They’ll sit in the dark and blame the Zionists.

            Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          1. ‘“I’ve been taking care of my trees for 31 years. These are my trees, I planted them, they’re like my children,” says Ali Taher Ali Salah. … . Can you imagine how hard it is for me to see someone else harvesting my trees, and I can’t walk over to him and ask ‘what are you doing?’” … Salah’s grove is located next to another grove that had been looted two weeks earlier….’
          2. ‘Context is everything. There were frequent major Arab Terrorist Attacks against Israelis…’

          Preposterous. Preposterous justification. You are excusing outright criminality and ordinary greed.

          Reply to Comment
    2. Carmen

      Context is everything. Like the context of this story, which is marginalized, compartmentalized and justified under the category of everything the zionists do to the Palestinians is because the Palestinians started it. More dinosaur droppings courtesy of the wooly mammoth of +972. “Neither he nor Abu Nijmah have any illusions: the problem is not the settler outlaws, but law enforcement and the army’s permit regime: “Every time you see a settler close to you, take a good look. There’s a soldier behind him, guarding him. There’s no difference here between the soldiers and the settlers.”” Exactly.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Nope lady. You and your kind are the black and white thinkers around here.

        You people always whine about the occupation. You hate context which tells, those who have no axe to grind, how the occupation started. Why the occupation continues and what needs to be done to end it. In other words, the history of the occupation and what BOTH sides do and don’t do now.

        You people are simply furious when me or someone like me reminds non partisan readers that the onus to end the occupation does not rest SOLELY with Israel. The Arabs have to do some heavy lifting too, not just Israel. And you people just can’t stand that thought because of your bias and hatred of Israel.

        Reply to Comment
        • Carmen

          Here you are talking like a 3-year-old – ‘the arabs have to do heavy lifting too’? You’re very quick to say what Palestinians have to do, but no so quick about what the zionist state has to do. I’m curious to know what you think the zionist state has to do in this process.

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Not so quick? We were talking about ending the “occupation” weren’t we? You want us to end it unconditionally I (we) want the Arabs to do some heavy lifting too before we end anything. Like give up your crazy demand of the so called right of return of millions of descendants of refugees.

            Is that too much to ask? To date, it seems so. And that’s why “the occupation” continues.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            You wrote “You people are simply furious when me or someone like me reminds non partisan readers that the onus to end the occupation does not rest SOLELY with Israel. The Arabs have to do some heavy lifting too, not just Israel. And you people just can’t stand that thought because of your bias and hatred of Israel”. I said I was curious, not furious. You don’t make me angry, quite the opposite. Anyway I responded with ‘You’re very quick to say what Palestinians have to do, but no so quick about what the zionist state has to do. I’m curious to know what you think the zionist state has to do in this process’. You replied 5 days later with just more of the above and no answer at all wrt what the zionist state has to do, you know, in terms of ‘heavy lifting’. I’m asking again, since you brought it up 5 days after I asked. (FYI: A reply entailing what the zionist state won’t do wasn’t the question, so that’s not the answer). Take your time – another 5 days perhaps.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            I replied 5 days later? I said it in day 1 and I responded again and again. We are talking about ending the occupation. That is still my answer. What else are you looking for Carmen?

            Now since you repeat. I repeat too. But we won’t end the occupation unless the Arabs do some heavy lifting (give up your silly right of return demand).

            Go on Carmen ask your silly question again. What does Israel have to do? I already answered it in day one. But we won’t end the occupation unilaterally without the Arabs doing some heavy lifting (give up your ROR demand).

            Wanna ask me again? Ok ask away. I will repeat my abswer again.

            I can play your ganes Carmen. We will see who will get bored first. Hint: not me.

            I think Carmen is trying a new tactic. She is trying to bore me to death through repetition. It won’t work lady 😝 The next time, I will just copy and paste this answer. So go ahead Carmen, ask me again. Copy and pasting is gonna be very easy.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “I replied 5 days later? I said it in day 1 and I responded again and again. We are talking about ending the occupation. That is still my answer. What else are you looking for Carmen? Now since you repeat. I repeat too. But we won’t end the occupation unless the Arabs do some heavy lifting (give up your silly right of return demand).”

            “(give up your silly right of return demand).” This wasn’t in your original post. This is a patented Gustav move of desperation. It speaks volumes wrt the lack of integrity of the zionist state and its minions.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Classic me Carmen? Ok then let’s talk about classic you.

            “But you said… first didn’t say … shoulda said …. coulda said …. woulda said… blah blah blah”.

            Yes I did say what I said in my first and second and third post…. But who cares anyway when I said it? I said it and that’s that.

            Now, you wanna argue about when I said what the first time a bit more? 💤

            By the way. Did you answer my question about the Hebron massacre?

            Or my question about how one million Jews were forced to flee Arab countries? Are you still stand by your porky that there were no pogroms by the Arab populations against Jews? And government organised persecutions? Did you answer those questions, Carmen?

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “Or my question about how one million Jews were forced to flee Arab countries? Are you still stand by your porky that there were no pogroms by the Arab populations against Jews? And government organised persecutions? Did you answer those questions, Carmen?”

            You asked questions or said shit? I don’t read half of your posts, as I’ve said before. They’re pretty much all the same anyway, full of false equivalences, strawmen, whataboutery and lies.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “You asked questions or said shit?”

            Spoken like a hammer. A hammer thinks that everything is a nail.

            Or one could change that to… spoken like a toilet…. well you know the rest Carmen, I won’t finish it. You know what I am saying don’t ya? 😛

            …yes, yes, I know…. you don’t read my posts.

            Reply to Comment
          • Chris

            “I replied 5 days later? I said it in day 1 and I responded again and again. We are talking about ending the occupation. That is still my answer.”

            Yes, you’ve proven again and again that the only thing you’re capable of doing is “talking” in the plural voice about how the Palestinians should have to do all your heavy lifting for you.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Chris? Carmen? Chris?

            Why does one get the feeling that someone around here is changing genders and names?

            What a joker. Not just a joker but a loser 😝

            Reply to Comment
          • Chris

            “Chris? Carmen? Chris?

            Why does one get the feeling that someone around here is changing genders and names?”

            Because one is too obtuse to get that based on the evidence, it’s far more likely that two different people around here chose to respond to one Zionist joker. And not just one Zionist joker, but one Zionist loser.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Loser”

            Not an original thought in your head eh Carmen, um Chris, em I mean Carmen.

            But let’s say you are Chris, not Carmen. Even then you are a loser. Otherwise you would not bave noined this multitude of losers who are trying to get the better of this one solitary Zionist (me) and who is more than holding his own against all of you bunch of losers. You people have no pride or shame. You are just a bunch of hateful scavenging hyenas but you won’t dine on this Jew who makes you all look ridiculous 😝

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            How many anti-Zionists does it take to change a lightbulb?

            A: None. They’ll sit in the dark and blame the Zionists.

            Reply to Comment
        • betz55

          Poor ajew is at again. Guess you are still sneezing…aaaaajjjjeeeeewwwwww! Ignore him Carmen.

          Another hasbaric troll slaving away at the Hasbara Institute in their capital Tel Aviv – employing an army of social media activists skilled enough to read jejune slogans but completely at a loss when confronted with the dark, fact-based truth that is Israel.

          After-all, how many times can a cue card equate Muslim with Jew hater before a mindless 18 year old paid $10.00 an hour finally says enough and saunters off to the beach?.

          It’s a hasbara point scoring technique called the “bandwagon effect”. you can read about it under 7 Basic Propaganda Devices in the hasbara handbook. Frequently prefaces an opinion w/ ‘most people’ think yada yada yada.

          Quoting from the handbook http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/israeli-propaganda-handbook-7-basic-propaganda-devices.html

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Poor ajew is at again. Guess you are still sneezing…aaaaajjjjeeeeewwwwww! Ignore him Carmen.”

            Betz the genius.

            If an anti Zionist can’t refute logic, he resorts to ridicule and abuse.

            PS
            The term ‘Hasbarah’ means ‘explanation’ in Hebrew. Geniuses like Getz hate any perspective, nuance and context which explain why things are the way they are between Palestinian Arabs and Israelis. So they resort to turn the very word ‘explanation – Hasbarah’ into a pejorative term. Just as the try to turn the word ‘Zionist’ the Jewish national movement for self determination into a pejorative term. Name ANY other national movement and the Getz’s of this world will automatically side with those national movements. Jews? Not so much. Some progressive Getz is. He hangs onto medieval hatreds and blood libels against Jews.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            More distraction and obfuscation because that’s all the zionist agenda has. What are the zionists prepared to do, or, as is my suspicion, the Palestinians are required to do ‘all the heavy lifting’? For someone who runs his/her mouth 24/7 he/she is predictably silent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re72di5phM0

            But has plenty of hasbara for Betz55. Bwahhaaahhaaahhaaa!!!!

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “More distraction and obfuscation”

            Yes, by your sock puppet Betz, Carmen.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            Not an original thought in your head.

            Reply to Comment
          • Chris

            The term ‘Hasbarah’ means ‘mindless Zionist propaganda’ in English.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            The term Hasbarah means ‘Explanation’ in Hebrew. Do you speak Hebrew Chris? Actually don’t answer that. I am not interested.

            But what I am interested in is how you people hate anyone like me who takes the trouble to explain why things are the way they are between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East.

            What you do like though is your own pro Arab propaganda.

            Reply to Comment
          • Chris

            The term ‘Hasbarah’ means ‘mindless Zionist propaganda’ in English.

            I’m not interested in your ‘Hasbarah’ or your ‘Hebrew’.

            Reply to Comment
    3. Carmen

      Hasbara checklist:
      a) Never stay on the topic at hand – check
      b) Justify every horrific act committed by the zionist state as jewish self-determination, self-preservation and therefore accept no responsibility for the bloody outcomes, random and continuous acts of cruelty by the iof and their masters – check
      c) Always CAPITALIZE the lies for dramatic effect – check
      d) Always, always, always speak for the Jooos, whether they want you to or not.
      e) Never, ever miss the opportunity in the midst of a hate-filled racist stream of conscieousness delusional rant – to complain about the hatred of the other(s).
      f) When all the above fails, feign boredom with the topic at hand to provide you with a face-saving exit – double check

      Reply to Comment
    4. AJew

      Response to Carmen’s list:
      a) Providing context is on topic– check
      b) Mentioning the horrific act of Arabs does not justify Israeli wrong doings. It just provides context and shows that we are not just dealing with angelic Arabs and pure evil Zionists. We are dealing with a war situation in which both sides do bad things. So the idea is to end the war in order to end the bad things but the Arabs don’t want to end the war without being able to declare total victory. That is highly relevant – check
      c) No lies by me lady. Everything I wrote above can be fact checked in any mainstream history book – check
      d) There are millions of Jewish Israelis and non Israelis or even non Jews who think like me. Some would go even further than me in their critique of Carmen’s and her cronies one sided black and white narrative but Carmen is trying to pretend that mine is a lone voice – check.
      e) Nothing that I wrote above is hate driven and none of it is racist. So Carmen’s comment is irrelevant and is probably hate driven because she hates nuance and perspective. She prefers black and white stories about hobgoblins (Zionists) and pure innocent maidens (Palestinian Arabs) – check.
      f) When all the above fails, feign boredom with the topic at hand to provide you with a face-saving exit – as opposed to Carmen feigning humor and mocking of someone else’s (mine) narrative and perspective. But instead of humor, she routinely gnashes her teeth, spits her dummy and is furious – double check.

      Reply to Comment
      • Carmen

        a, b – nope
        c – not sticking to topic again.
        d – really? You speak only for yourself and your compadres let you hang out to dry. I’m not pretending you’re a lone voice, but speaking in “we” and “us” is no longer a strange idiosyncracy of yours but pathologic. A lone voice – a loon voice is more like it!
        e – oh waaaahhhh.
        f – my teeth are just fine thanks.

        Nuance and perspective isn’t in your repertoire. You’re as nuanced as a Mack truck in a tea shop and your perspective is classic zionist propaganda.

        Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Here is a story which I read in the newspapers of a faraway land which illustrates the importance of context.

        THE STORY WITHOUT CONTEXT:
        A woman walked up to a stationary car, pointed a gun at the head of the male driver and shot him dead.

        Without listening to context, this woman would, at the least, be thrown into prison for the rest of her life and the key to her cell would be thrown away. But in fact, when her case was fully examined in a court of law, the judge acquitted her of any wrong doing!

        It turns out that the woman was a security guard who minutes before was robbed by the man of a large sum of money which she carried in a bag. The man repeatedly beat her in the head with a knuckle duster and dragged her on the floor. He then got into his car with the money and attempted to drive away but was held up by traffic. The woman got up, chased him and shot him. That was the story in context which the judge rightly considered.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ray

          Your story has nothing to do with the situation (unless the woman in question had done something bad to the guy first, which we never heard about). Do you condone stealing/wrecking somebody else’s property as punishment for what terrorists who share his religion do?

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Try and follow the conversation Ray. I know it’s hard but you can do it. Just concentrate.

            Reply to Comment
          • Chris

            Belligerent military occupation is by its very definition an extremely violent act of war.

            Within the context of the scenario above, it is the belligerently occupied people of Palestine who are being repeatedly beaten in the head with an israeli knuckle duster and then dragged on the floor. This has been the situation in Palestine since 1967, and it has nothing to do with “security” and everything to do with easing the violent and illegal Zionist colonization of Palestine, which has been ongoing for more than a century.

            And the Palestinians, like all people under the yoke of colonial oppression, are perfectly entitled to violently resist the violent and ongoing illegal Zionist colonization of their homeland as well as their ongoing violent subjugation.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Surrounded by enemies who sought to strangle it at birth, continually threatened by war and constantly under terrorist attack, a nation scarcely the size of Wales with no natural resources, half of whose territory is desert, has become a flourishing democracy, a centre of scientific innovation, one of the world’s major providers of international humanitarian relief and the only state from Casablanca to Kabul with a free press, free judiciary, a flourishing free enterprise economy and freedom for people of every sexual orientation to live and love as they wish.

            And that is the reason it attracts such hostility. Not because of what Israel does. But because of what it is.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “No, because of what israel does and because of what it is, an ethnocentric aparthed state.”

            Rabbis deny 1 in 10 Jews the right to marry in Israel – Middle East Eye
            http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/rabbis-deny-1-10-jews-right-marry-israel-1047369538

            The ‘Unconverted’: How Israel excludes those ‘not Jewish enough’
            http://www.haaretz.com/st/c/prod/eng/2015/08/not-jewish-enough

            Jerusalem chief rabbi calls homosexuality an abomination – The Times of Israel
            http://www.timesofisrael.com › Jewish Times
            ‘The Torah says it is punishable by death… This is among the most forbidden lusts’

            How Israel’s Jewishness is overtaking its democracy – The Washington …
            https://www.washingtonpost.com/…/how-israels-jewishness-is-overtaking-its-democracy

            Israel’s Charade of Democracy – The New York Times
            http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/01/opinion/israels-charade-of-democracy.html

            In Israel, instead of equal rights, no equality at all – Opinion – Israel …
            http://www.haaretz.com › Opinion

            The Adalah database of 50 discriminatory laws in Israel – Mondoweiss
            mondoweiss.net/2015/06/database-discriminatory-israel

            “Combat Proven”: The Booming Business of War in Israel – The Intercept
            https://theintercept.com/2015/06/05/war-israel-booming-business

            What’s behind Israel’s biggest economic boom? The occupation | +972 …
            972mag.com/whats-behind-israels-biggest-economic-boom-the-occupation/81038

            Chris Hedges: Israel’s Secret Weapons–“Combat-Tested” Against the …
            https://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/…/chris-hedges-israels-secret-weapons-combat-t

            Reply to Comment
          • Ray

            I’ve read over the conversation by this point, and I don’t think I’ve missed anything, thank you very much.

            Do they teach you at whatever college you attended how to be a supercilious, mincing, grandiose little prig, or is there a three-step program for it? Or were you just born with your charming personality?

            You want to snark instead of argue with logic, here you go.

            Reply to Comment
    5. carmen

      “I say, yes, as a result of the civil war which the Arabs started when they rioted and attacked Jews randomly after the UN vote to partition Palestine, the Jews went on the offensive and there was a Nakba. Some Arabs in villages located in strategic locations were expelled.”

      Wow. Incidentally, nuanced doesn’t mean lie your shethah off. Civil war which the arabs started? So the haganah, Irgun and Stern gang were just jewish boy’s clubs and not terrorist organizations? And the Palestinians were supposed to sit and get slaughtered by indiscriminate bus bombings, shuk bombings, etc., by jewish terrorist groups? You sound like u.s. generals describing native americans as ‘savages’ when they returned fire. You’re so funny! The iof went on offensive all right and murdered, raped, plundered and ethnically cleansed 417 Palestinian villages, and the ethnic cleansing continues to this day, along with extrajudicial murders and added accoutrements, like side dishes at an all you can eat occupation buffet. Full yet?

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Wow indeed.

        There she goes again. Carmen conflating dates times and who did what to whom first. Let me repost my earlier post about the 1929 massacres committed by Arabs against Jews.

        “Oh and the violence and terrorism was definitely started by the Arabs, not the Jews. The Hebron massacre and a similar massacre of Jews in Zefat occurred in 1929. The Hganah was started after that shameful episode in response to the massacre. And the Irgun and it’s terror campaign started much later.

        I know you are going to deny all this and mix up the sequence of dates about who did what to whom and when. But all main stream history books verify what I said above. I’ll leave it to more honest people than yourself, Carmen, to verify it for themselves.”

        Was I right or was I right? The lady IS in denial (no not the river nile) about history. She is a classic revisionist historian. But people CAN read history for themselves. Anyone can check for themselves in mainstream history books and find out for themselves that the Arabs were the ones who started the violence because the perceived the Jews to be colonialist invaders who came to take over what they considered to be Arab lands.

        Of course the lands were NOT Arab lands. The land was under populated (350,000 in 1850 where now about 10 million people live and there is still room for more). Moreover, the Arabs had no sovereignity over the land. Non Arabs ruled it for centuries. Last but not least, it used to be sovereign Jewish lands before the Arab invaders were even heard of. And some Jews never left those lands.

        Reply to Comment
        • Chris

          Yes, anyone can check for themselves in mainstream history books and find out for themselves that the indigenous Palestinian population was in fact reacting to the violent colonization of their homeland by foreign Zionist invaders, like any other people would.

          The Land of Palestine is neither “Arab” nor “Jew”, the Land of Palestine belongs solely to its indigenous inhabitants: the Palestinians.

          Moreover,an Arab can also be a Jew and a Jew can be an Arab.

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “The Land of Palestine is neither “Arab” nor “Jew”, the Land of Palestine belongs solely to its indigenous inhabitants: the Palestinians.”

            Indigenous inhabitants? You mean the Jews.

            http://m.jpost.com/#article=6017RTREQjc2Q0Q4ODhDNENGQzlDQ0U5RUMyQjJFRjQ3MkY=

            Israel was not “created and founded,” artificially and out-of-the-blue, in 1948 — but rather, Israel re-attained its independence that year as the natural fruition into statehood of the once-sovereign homeland of the Jewish people, who — over almost two millennia of continuous foreign invader and empire rule — never deserted that home, despite all attempts to eradicate them.

            As for the Arabs who came much later. They were offered their state too in UN resolution 181. But that was not enough for them they wanted only one state. An Arab state only. So they attacked the Jews of Palestine.

            But even after their and their allies defeat. The Arabs of Palestine could have had their own state in the West Bank and Gaza between 1948 and 1967 when Jordan and Egypt respectively ruled. But evidently the Arabs of Palestine were happy enough to be Arabs rather than Palestinians. The only thing that they were not happy about was the Jewish state next door. That is why even before 1967 the Arabs continued to commit terrorism against innocent Israeli civilians instead of building their own state.

            And now still instead of giving up their silly demand to try and flood Israel with millions of descendants of refugees and instead signing a peace deal with Israel. They just whine about the occupation and resort to more terrorism. Israel in turn has to then use draconian measures to curb their violence. No one else would react differently. Some would react in a worse way than Israel reacts. The Arabs themselves would do much worse to Jews if our roles would be reversed. Witness what they do even to each other in Syria. Anyone doubts that they would do much worse things to Jews if they could. Yea? Then ask Hamas. They openly brag about how they will murder all Jews. Not just the Jews of Israel. And attempt to do so at every opportunity.

            Reply to Comment
        • Carmen

          “Of course the lands were NOT Arab lands. The land was under populated (350,000 in 1850 where now about 10 million people live and there is still room for more). Moreover, the Arabs had no sovereignity over the land. Non Arabs ruled it for centuries. Last but not least, it used to be sovereign Jewish lands before the Arab invaders were even heard of. And some Jews never left those lands.”

          I’m not trying to revise history. If I remember correctly, you are the product of a zionist education and IOF so you’ve been fed information from birth that would serve the nationalist zionist agenda; the same way the national socialists commandeered the education of german youth and their education was nazi slogans and ideology; the same way the united states education is racist ideology that reduced the indigenous population whose lands they stole to not much more than a footnote, usually referring to them as ‘hostiles’.

          “The Arabs captured Jerusalem from the Byzantines in 637. To show his respect for the city, Omar (the second caliph after the death of the Prophet) accepted its surrender in person and treated its inhabitants with extraordinary clemency and moderation. In the words of Sir William Fitzgerald: “Never in the sorry story of conquest up to that day, and rarely since, were such noble and generous sentiments displayed by a conqueror as those extended to Jerusalem by Omar.” Omar was anxious to identify the places associated with Muhammad’s ascension. The rock from which the ascension had taken place was located with difficulty, as it lay buried under a dunghill. After cleansing the rock, Omar led his entourage (which included many Companions, i.e., close associates, of the Prophet) in prayer beside it. The call to prayer was made for the first time since Muhammad’s death by Bilal, his muezzin. One of the Companions who attended the ceremony, Ubadah, was appointed by Omar as first qadi (“judge”) of Jerusalem, and died in the city while holding that office. The Arabic name given to Jerusalem was al-Bait al-Muqaddas (the Holy House) in apposition to al-Bait al-Haram (the Sacred House), Mecca’s designation. The Byzantine province of Palaestina Prima became the administrative and military province (djund) of Filastin — the Arabic name for Palestine since then.”

          The Abbasids – 750-1225
          The crusades – ‘the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem 1099-1187
          Saladin and successors – the Ayyubids – 1187-1291
          The Mamelukes 1260-1517
          The Ottoman empire – 1517-1918

          Introduction: The Last Days of Ottoman Rule 1876-1918 | Before Their …
          btd.palestine-studies.org/content/introduction-last-days-ottoman-rule-1876-1918

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “The Arabs captured Jerusalem from the Byzantines in 637.”

            In other words, the Arabs stole the lands from thieves who stole it from other thieves who stole it from us (the Jews). And if you want to call us (the Jews) thieves too, then you can because we stole the lands from the Cananites. So much for ancient history.

            Now here is modern history. The Cananites are long dead. Show me a live Cananite, Carmen. But we Jews are very much alive and are still here. Some of us have never left the lands which were our ancestral lands. The rest of us came back to re-claim what has been ours before the Arabs were even heard of. Even your Quran mentions the fact that the holy land is the land of the Jews.

            Moreover, we agreed and most of us still agree to share the lands (two state solution) with the descendants of Arabs who stole the land from other thiefs. But we, the Jewish Israelis are the thieves? Okey dokey, if you say so lady.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “The Arabs captured Jerusalem from the Byzantines in 637.
            .
            .
            .
            The Ottoman empire – 1517-1918”

            So even by Carmen’s account of history, the Arabs were not the sovereign rulers of Palestine for centuries as I said (the Ottomans were Turks – NOT Arabs).

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            637 to 1517 is approximately 9 centuries.

            The Ottoman turkish rule, 1517-1918, wasn’t jewish or christian but sunni muslim.

            History of Palestine – Wikipedia
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

            Introduction: The Last Days of Ottoman Rule 1876-1918 | Before Their …
            btd.palestine-studies.org/content/introduction-last-days-ottoman-rule-1876-1918

            Muslim history in Palestine – Wikipedia
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_history_in_Palestine

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “The Ottoman turkish rule, 1517-1918, wasn’t jewish or christian but sunni muslim.”

            And your point is? That Palestine belongs to Muslims? It does not even matter that some of those Muslims were not Arab?

            Note: the Jews lay claim to Israel based on our Jewish ethnicity. Not on a religious basis. The Jewish people held sovereignity over this land for over 20 centuries. And we are here again. And we are not going away.

            Howzat, Carmen?

            Reply to Comment
    6. Chris

      “Indigenous inhabitants? You mean the Jews.”

      The Land of Palestine belongs solely to its indigenous inhabitants: the Palestinians.

      The apartheid state of israel never existed before 1948; apartheid israel was artificially created in the land of Palestine, out of whole-cloth between circa 1880 and 1948.

      The apartheid state of israel is the “natural fruition” of the ongoing violent invasion and colonization of the Land of Palestine by foreign Zionists. These indoctrinated foreign Zionist extremest invaders colonizers, terrorists, land thieves, ethnic cleansers and murderers have been attempting to reconstitute their Biblical “once-sovereign homeland of the Jewish people” in the indigenous Palestinian People’s homeland of Palestine since the late 1800s. The indigenous Palestinian People never deserted their homeland of Palestine, despite all attempts by the Zionists to eradicate them.

      The Palestinians didn’t need to be “offered their state too”, because they already had their state, their homeland of Palestine.

      The Palestinians aren’t obligated to share their homeland with a gang of foreign invaders, colonizers, terrorists, ethnic cleansers and murderers.

      The Palestinians, like all people under the yoke of colonial oppression, are perfectly entitled to violently resist the violent and ongoing illegal Zionist colonization of their homeland as well as their ongoing violent subjugation.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        For those on the left addicted to guilt-tripping and grievance-mongering, who believe that poverty is a consequence of western exploitation and that bourgeois ethics lead to oppression, the existence of a political entity that is a runaway success precisely because it is a bourgeois-minded, capitalist-fuelled, western-oriented nation state is just too much to bear. Their ideological prejudices have collided with a stubborn, undeniable, fact.

        So what do they do? Keep the prejudices, of course, and try to get rid of the fact. Try to undermine, delegitimise and reduce support for Israel. Make it the only country in the world whose right to exist is called continually into question. Make the belief in that state’s survival, Zionism, a dirty word. Denounce, as the NUS president has, a British university for being a “Zionist outpost”. And instead call organisations pledged to eliminate Israel such as Hezbollah and Hamas “friends”, as Jeremy Corbyn has.

        Antizionism is not a brave anti-colonial and anti-racist stance, it is simply antisemitism minding its manners so it can sit in a seminar room. And as such it deserves to be called out, confronted and opposed.

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    7. AJew

      For those on the left addicted to guilt-tripping and grievance-mongering, who believe that poverty is a consequence of western exploitation and that bourgeois ethics lead to oppression, the existence of a political entity that is a runaway success precisely because it is a bourgeois-minded, capitalist-fuelled, western-oriented nation state is just too much to bear. Their ideological prejudices have collided with a stubborn, undeniable, fact.

      So what do they do? Keep the prejudices, of course, and try to get rid of the fact. Try to undermine, delegitimise and reduce support for Israel. Make it the only country in the world whose right to exist is called continually into question. Make the belief in that state’s survival, Zionism, a dirty word. Denounce, as the NUS president has, a British university for being a “Zionist outpost”. And instead call organisations pledged to eliminate Israel such as Hezbollah and Hamas “friends”, as Jeremy Corbyn has.

      Antizionism is not a brave anti-colonial and anti-racist stance, it is simply antisemitism minding its manners so it can sit in a seminar room. And as such it deserves to be called out, confronted and opposed.

      Reply to Comment
    8. AJew

      http://m.jpost.com/#article=6017ODY1NEY0NDA4RkE1N0Y3MEM5OTE3OEIyOTc0NTU2OUI=

      Wow!!! What a speech from the outgoing UN Secretary General. Pity he had no influence to make the UN more balanced while he was in office. Who knows? The occupation might have even ended. Here is a brief extract of what he said:

      “Decades of political maneuverings have created a disproportionate volume of resolutions, reports and conferences criticizing Israel,” Ban said. “In many cases, rather than helping the Palestinian cause, this reality has hampered the ability of the UN to fulfill its role effectively.”
      “The Secretary General admitted the clear truth, the UN’s hypocrisy towards Israel has broken records over the past decade,” Israel’s ambassador to the UN Danny Danon said in reaction to the statement. “During this time the UN passed 223 resolutions condemning Israel while only eight resolutions condemning the Syrian regime as it has massacred its citizens over the past six years. This is absurd.”

      And yes. He criticised Israel too. Hey we are big enough to take criticism and even heed it. But not one sided tirades and propaganda. That just causes us to circle the wagons and nobody wins.

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    9. Ben

      ‘And instead call organisations pledged to eliminate Israel such as Hezbollah and Hamas “friends”, as Jeremy Corbyn has.’

      This is typical anti-Semitizing. As someone else remarked on this site:
      http://972mag.com/israels-biggest-paper-ignores-anti-semitism-of-senior-trump-advisor/123158/
      “To put it bluntly, this is libelous. You have referred to Corbyn in the present tense as though he currently and routinely refers to these entire organisations as friends of his. The fact is he once referred (past tense) to MEMBERS of these organisations as friends when they were visiting the British parliament SEVEN YEARS AGO.”
      And Corbyn has apologized for using the word “friends” His use of it was ripped out of all context and used as a weapon against him. Typical anti-Semitizing. The idea that “anti-Zionism” (even calling all opposition to the occupation “anti-Zionism” is a form of propaganda—you use propaganda from the time you get up in the morning before you even have your shoes on) and opposition to the occupation is only and can only be “anti-Semitism” and so needs to be “called out” is base propaganda.

      You’re all in a cooked up bother about Corbyn but Steve Bannon? “Oh, I’ll bide my time and be vewy vewy fair and give him the benefit of the doubt because I haven’t heard anything and I know nothing!” If the guy is Left, he’s an anti-semite from the get go, but if the guy is Right, he can spew any crude anti-Semitic thing he wants and “oh, let’s wait and see and be vewy vewy fair to this good man because I think he really in his heart meant something else and besides I think he apologized and said he meant something else….” But if Corbyn said he meant something else? You’d savage him. You are so funny, man.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        “If the guy is Left, he’s an anti-semite from the get go, but if the guy is Right, he can spew any crude anti-Semitic thing he wants”

        Wrong again, Benny. Here, let me demonstrate. I hate antisemites whether they are extreme leftists or extreme rightists. For instance, I hate David Duke too.

        Next?

        Reply to Comment
    10. AJew

      “The Arabs captured Jerusalem from the Byzantines in 637.
      .
      .
      .
      The Ottoman empire – 1517-1918”

      So even by Carmen’s account of history, the Arabs were not the sovereign rulers of Palestine for centuries as I said (the Ottomans were Turks – NOT Arabs).

      And the Arabs stole the lands from thieves who stole it from other thieves who stole it from us (the Jews). And if you want to call us (the Jews) thieves too, then you can because we stole the lands from the Cananites. So much for ancient history.

      Now here is modern history. The Cananites are long dead. Show me a live Cananite, Carmen. But we Jews are very much alive and are still here. Some of us have never left the lands which were our ancestral lands. The rest of us came back to re-claim what has been ours before the Arabs were even heard of. Even your Quran mentions the fact that the holy land is the land of the Jews.

      Moreover, we agreed and most of us still agree to share the lands (two state solution) with the descendants of Arabs who stole the land from other thiefs. But we, the Jewish Israelis are the thieves? Okey dokey, if you say so lady.

      Reply to Comment
      • Carmen

        ‘Your Quran’? I’m jewish, you insist I’m not, which is a bitchy thing to continue to do. Feel free to insult me all you want, fine, but insulting the religion is futile and ignorant. You don’t insult me with this btw, you insult muslims. Palestinians have been the majority in Palestine (as it was called from ancient time until the modern era of 1948). Zionism is the bain of modern times and the root of this conflict.

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        • AJew

          “‘Your Quran’? I’m jewish, you insist I’m not, which is a bitchy thing to continue to do. Feel free to insult me all you want”

          I am insulting you by calling you Muslim? Is that how you feel about Islam? Tell us more. Are you a closet Islamophobe, Carmen?

          “fine, but insulting the religion is futile and ignorant.”

          Fascinating. In other words by calling you Muslim, I am insulting the religion. Are you such a bad person Carmen that Islam is insulted if you are one of them? Okey dokey.

          “You don’t insult me with this btw, you insult muslims.”

          Ok I’ll remember not to insult Muslims by calling you a Muslim, Carmen. Thanks for setting me straight. You must be a very bad person though for thinking so badly of yourself. Maybe you should see someone about it?

          “Palestinians have been the majority in Palestine (as it was called from ancient time until the modern era of 1948).”

          That is true. Even I can’t deny that. But I don’t know what point are you trying to make by that. We already discussed that Palestine was very much under populated in the mid 1800s and it certainly had room for Jewish refugees from pogroms. And by 1947 Jews represented a third of the population of Palestine. So given that and given the history of this land (see above posts) the UN’s idea of partitioning Palestine was not out of order. I mean the Muslims of India represented only 12% of the population of the subcontinent yet at the insistence of India’s Muslims, India was partitioned into a Muslim state (Pakistan) and into a Hindu state (India). So what was wrong in doing the same in Palestine?

          By the way, this land used to be called Judea before the Romans conquered it. About 2000 years ago, as a punishment to the Jews who dared to fight for their freedom, the Romans renamed Judea to Palestine. They also kicked most of the Jews but some Jews stayed and never left. Go read some real history books Carmen. Not fringe left and Arab propaganda leaflets. As I said, even the holy Quran calls this land the land of the Jews.

          “Zionism is the bain of modern times and the root of this conflict.”

          Why? Because we exist and we dare to look after the interests of the Jewish people who live in this land? Jewish nationalism is a bane? But Arab nationalism isn’t? I think such sentiments are bigotted, Carmen.

          Why are the Arab people allowed to look after the interests of their people while Jews who have nationalist sentiments are not allowed to (according to people like you)?

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Here Carmen, check this out. It gives references too so you can follow up and verify the claims for yourself.

            http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/jordanian-sheikh-allah-gave-land-of.html?m=1

            “Sheikh Ahmad Adwan, who introduces himself as a Muslim scholar who lives in Jordan, said on his personal Facebook page that there is no such thing as “Palestine” in the Koran. Allah has assigned the Holy Land to the Children of Israel until the Day of Judgment (Koran, Sura 5 – “The Sura of the Table”, Verse 21), and “We made the Children of Israel the inheritors (of the land)” (Koran, Sura 26 – “The Sura of the Poets”, Verse 59). “

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            From 637 to 1918, about 13 centuries, there was no jewish rule in Palestine along with a negligible jewish presence. I think we can put this fact to bed. As far as the rest of your post, if I were muslim I would broadcast it on my posts. What you do is the equivalent of a redneck calling anyone who despised jim crow and segregation a nigger lover. I can’t make it any simpler for you to understand, but am quite sure others do.

            Reply to Comment
    11. AJew

      And before the onset of Arab rule, which ended 500 years ago, about 600 years before that, this land was sovereign Jewish land for nearly twenty centuries. But that does not count?

      I guess you subscribe to the not uncommon attitude amongst Arabs that once a land is ruled by Arabs, that land irrevocably becomes Arab land, no matter what happened in that land before the arrival of Arabs.

      Oh by the way, no comment about what even the Quran says about this land?

      Reply to Comment
      • Carmen

        “I guess you subscribe to the not uncommon attitude amongst Arabs that once a land is ruled by Arabs, that land irrevocably becomes Arab land, no matter what happened in that land before the arrival of Arabs.”

        You guessed wrong. Otherwise, they should probably take Spain back ASAP.

        Reply to Comment
        • AJew

          Al quaida said they want to.

          Reply to Comment
    12. carmen

      You got that straight, no comment about the Quran. My only comment is there is no justification for the zionist takeover of Palestine. The ancient Hebrews have been out of Palestine for centuries. How can zionists, living in europe for centuries, claim this land? I imagine that all the digging being done is to find those jars with the ancient deeds to the land, if there ever was such a thing. But it seems to me that the zionist claim of ownership is not only cynical, but unlawful and just wrong. Ethnic cleansing of palestine and the continued removal of palestinians from their land is wrong, wrong, wrong.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        “The ancient Hebrews have been out of Palestine for centuries.”

        Actually no! As I said before, some of those ancient Hebrews never left the land. For instance, Hebron had a continuous Jewish population till the 1929 massacre of Jews by the Palestinian Arabs. The same is true of Tzefat and Tiberias.

        Yes the Jews were a minority but some Jews never left this land and were here before the arrival of the Arabs.

        “How can zionists, living in europe for centuries, claim this land?”

        If so many other conquerors, like the Arabs, can claim it then we have at least as much right to claim it because we are here now and we are the majority. If you like, we lost this land to conquerors and we won it back by conquest from a people (the Arabs) who refused to share this land with us by rejecting the UN resolution to partition Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.

        Or do you want us to just pack our bags and leave just because you say so?

        Reply to Comment
        • Carmen

          “Or do you want us to just pack our bags and leave just because you say so?”

          No, because the palestinians, the u.n. and the rest of the world say so. Duh.

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “No, because the palestinians, the u.n. and the rest of the world say so. Duh.”

            We don’t care what the Fakestinians say.

            We care about the UN as much as the Fakestinians cared about UN resolution 181.

            The rest of the world does not say so. Duh.

            Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        “You got that straight, no comment about the Quran”

        So even the holy book of the Arabs (most Arabs are Muslims) says that the holy land is the land of the Jews.

        But Carmen does not even let that fact stand in the way of her story.

        She is like all other anti-Zionists. She ignores inconvenient facts which contradict her favorite story which says that Zionists don’t belong here.

        Note, lady: most Zionists are Jews. Although we (yes we) have many non Jewish sympathisers who call themselves Zionists which of course is fine by us.

        Reply to Comment
    13. Chris

      Jews are no more an ethnicity than Christians are an ethnicity or Muslims are an ethnicity. Zionist apartheid “israel” didn’t exist before 1948. The Land of Palestine has existed for millennia and it belongs solely to its indigenous inhabitants: the Palestinians.

      The Palestinians have never deserted their Homeland, despite all attempts to eradicate them.

      Reply to Comment
    14. AJew

      Have you ever heard someone call himself a Christian AND an atheist?

      Have you ever heard someone call himself a Muslim and an atheist?

      I haven’t.

      Now, have you ever heard someone call himself of being Jewish but being an atheist? I have. Most of the original Zionists who built Israel described themselves as atheist but Jewish at the same time.

      Now do you understand why being Jewish is different, Chris? Why being Jewish is an ethnicity rather than just a religion or a race? Of course you know that there are black Jews, white Jews, brown Jews and even Chinese Jews. That is why being Jewish is not just a race either. Ok, Chris?

      Reply to Comment
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