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Palestinian activists disavow former Israeli Jew for anti-Semitism

The US Palestinian Community Network and Electronic Intifada are circulating this public letter, which is not only about Gilad Atzmon – the former Israeli turned conspiracy-theorist and anti-Semite – but more importantly, makes the distinction between criticism of Zionism and relations with Jews and the Jewish people. I am not endorsing everything in this text, but it is definitely worth reading and relating to.

We reaffirm that there is no room in this historic and foundational analysis of our struggle for any attacks on our Jewish allies, Jews, or Judaism; nor denying the Holocaust; nor allying in any way shape or form with any conspiracy theories, far-right, orientalist, and racist arguments, associations and entities. Challenging Zionism, including the illegitimate power of institutions that support the oppression of Palestinians, and the illegitimate use of Jewish identities to protect and legitimize oppression, must never become an attack on Jewish identities, nor the demeaning and denial of Jewish histories in all their diversity.

Read the rest here.

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    COMMENTS

    1. ish yehudi

      In jewish mystic tradition– it is the “right” side- of Chesed/ Free flowing kindness that does not make distinctions– distinctions are supposed to come from the left (Gevurah). It is nice to see the political “Left”- living up to its mystical tikun of making distinctions–

      Reply to Comment
    2. XYZ

      The title of this should be corrected to
      “AMERICAN Palestinian Activists Disavow…”.
      I don’t believe their position is accepted or reflected in internal Palestinian discourse and propaganda among the Palestinian population. Atzmon was apparently becoming an embarrassment in Leftist/Progressive circles, particularly among Jews.

      Reply to Comment
    3. BOOZ

      Better late than never.

      Let them, on that count dissociate themselves with such unsavory allies as Helen Thomas or Baroness Tonge, or (on the French political scene, which I know better . Alain Soral, Marc-Edouard Nabe, Maria Poumier and their ilk.

      Their next step would be to admit that there is indeed a human group called the Jewish people as much entitled to self-determination as any other people.

      Prospects for peace and co-existence would suddenly become brighter.

      Upon reading Mr Abunimah’s conception of Zionism, I realized how paranoid and short-sighted his views may be.

      If he keeps sticking to his ” Jewish allies” there is no place he may go to.

      Reply to Comment
    4. Richard Witty

      Ali’s struggling to find an argument that is consistent, that doesn’t demonize. More power to that attitude.

      The problem with this analysis is that some form of return to the land, literally, is a component of all sects of Jewish religion.

      Judaism is not a universalistic moral credo, but a description of how to be part of the Jewish community.

      The Jewish credo is cynically manipulated by some to support racialist claims that ignore law and ethics. And, it is ignored by many that are Zionists. (“Love thy neighbor as thyself” is ignored too often).

      Its a difficult choice for Ali, and for all Palestinian supporters.

      Inherent in Ali’s description is the notion still that the current Jewish residents are interlopers, that he, who does not live in the land Israel/Palestine has more voice than those that do.

      I find it hard to parse from his language that he is sincere in his advocacy for a fully democratic single state, if that conflicts with Palestinian national rights.

      I’m certain that he finds it hard to trust those liberal Zionists that describe themselves as pursuing a democratic AND Jewish majority Israel.

      Reply to Comment
    5. Gryfin

      In response to Richard: You comment that Ali does not live in the land of Israel/Palestine and wonder why he has more voice than the “Interlopers” is disingenuous. That absence from Israel/Palestine is the very reason for his activism. His family was expelled. He can’t return and live there. Why? Because he is from the wrong religious/ethnic group.

      Reply to Comment
    6. Bill Pearlman

      He is still a popular guy at mondoweiss. Where those who think WW2 ended up with the wrong side winning hang out.

      Reply to Comment
    7. yaacov lozowick

      Gryfin –

      Why can’t he return to live in Palestine? Of course he can. If he wishes to move to the West Bank or Gaza, no-one will interfere, and indeed, any number of Americans from Palestine have. The problem will start if he wishes to move on a permanent basis to Israel – or Switzerland, or Japan.

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    8. @YAACOV: You are wrong. Israel controls all entries to the Palestinian Territories. Entering the West bank requires an Israeli visa and is limited in time.

      Reply to Comment
    9. Jazzy

      Irrelevant – AA represents the anti-Zionist moron community, not the Palestinians.

      Reply to Comment
    10. yaacov lozowick

      Noam, I think I know otherwise, and know people who have moved. Tho I admit perhaps they got permission – I never asked. Can you give a source for your statement?

      Reply to Comment
    11. Richard Witty

      My point was different than Gryffon responded to.

      That was that the advocacy for a single democratic is questionable if he doesn’t mean one-person one-vote (in the present) from river to sea.

      If he means unlimited right of return for any of any Palestinian descent to anywhere in historic Palestine, then he is not talking about one-person one-vote democracy.

      Its the difference between a pendulum swing from one undemocratic setting to another, or ending the pendulum swinging to get to actual consent of the governed (which to my mind is only possible in a two-healthy state approach).

      Reply to Comment
    12. Lauren

      I read Gilad and don’t find anything in his work that is hateful against Jews. I would never read anyone who makes blanket hate speeches.
      I also agree with Helen Thomas and the Baroness. They have a right to their brand of truth. Even if it ruffles feathers. Look how quickly the folks who don’t agree with the Zionist’s program are hounded, fired, diavowed while their lives and careers are destroyed. Now, that true hatred.
      Israeli’s needs to stop flipping and redirecting the conversations to avoid the facts on the ground.
      Nutty Yahoos waving of holocaust papers at AIPAC is just proof that Israel demands that the entire world must accept whatever they do because of something that happened 70 years ago.
      Sorry….. that doesn’t work with me.

      Reply to Comment
    13. goodwin

      Lauren, the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz is not a matter of ‘the Zionists program’ but of verifiable historical truth disproving an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. That Atzmon would give Holocaust deniers the time of day, let alone play at their fundraisers as he does, is sufficient to render him of no possible pragmatic benefit to the Palestinians – but great benefit to anti-Semites everywhere, who can be counted to rally behind him and his ‘taboo busting’.

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    14. Ohad

      they are still hoping that we will disappear or give up our legal rights for self determination , but we are not going any where BC we have no where else to go

      Reply to Comment
    15. Richard Witty

      Its nice to see a picture of Ali with even slightly longer hair than usual.

      It makes him look much younger and more approachable.

      Reply to Comment
    16. Yaacov, to live anywhere in the Occupied Territories a Palestinian needs an ID card issued by the Israeli occupation authorities, which restricts them to either the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. These are extremely difficult to get. It is possible that the people you know who moved already had the right ID due to being born in the OPT (although it should be noted that even this is no safeguard – if a Palestine-born Palestinian leaves the country for too long, the authorities have the power to revoke his/her residency). These policies have been responsible for separating a lot of families, especially since separate ID cards for the West Bank and Gaza were introduced. This was bad news for married couples where one spouse was from the West Bank and the other from the Gaza Strip.

      Reply to Comment
    17. Lilly

      Noam,

      it’s presented as common sense, that Gilad Atzmon is anti-Semite and racist, some here even label him a Holocaust denier, playing at their fundraisers. Yet everyone who does, fails to provide some proof to bolster his/her claims.

      I have read what he writes and while one may disagree to some of his conclusions, I couldn’t find any trace of racism (I consider anti-semitism to be racist)

      The fact that he questionscultural and religious Jewish values, when the state of Israel uses Jewish symbols and claims to be a Jewish state, makes total sense to me and doesn’t constitute any form of racism. Please, come forward with some proof for your accusations.

      Reply to Comment
    18. Dhalgren

      I suppose the man must be allowed to defend himself:

      http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/washington-report-to-disavow-or-debate-gilad-atzmon.html#entry15431769

      I am not very familiar with Gilad Atzmon’s writings. Since it is mentioned on his Wikipedia page, I read his essay “On Anti-Semitism,” and it is certainly extreme.

      http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/on-anti-semitism-by-gilad-atzmon.html

      Is it antisemitic? Not if you follow his argument all the way through. Parts of it taken out of context would absolutely be antisemitic (especially the parts about Jews in the US government and the age-old “Christ killer” slur). As it is in its entirety, I would call it an extreme and culturally insensitive anti-Zionist point of view. However, I would prefer to argue with Atzmon than to disavow him, if that essay is characteristic of his approach. It’s sort of like MSNBC getting rid of Pat Buchanan. I would have preferred to argue with Buchanan than fire him. Now he’ll just go places where no one will argue with him.

      Reply to Comment
    19. Goodwin

      The Holocaust denial organization Atzmon raises money for is called ‘Deir Yassin Remembered.” His last fundraiser for them was just last night (and was apparently a bust) in Geneva, NY. Go to their site and look up essays from a Holocaust denier named Daniel McGowan.

      Reply to Comment
    20. Dhalgren

      Well, here’s antisemitism for you:

      http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/gilad-atzmon-the-herem-law-in-the-context-of-jewish-past-and.html

      A few quotes:

      “This should not take us by surprise: Israel defines itself as a Jewish state, and Jewishness is, sadly enough, inherently intolerant; indeed, it may be argued that Jewish intolerance is as old as the Jews themselves.”

      “The emergence of Christianity then, can be viewed as an attempt to rectify such a situation of stark intolerance — it can be understood as an attempt to drift away from The Old Testament’s dark ideology. Christianity introduced ideas of harmony and love. And it is no wonder that the man who dared suggest to his Judean contemporaries to ‘love their neighbours’ ended up nailed to wood. He himself ended up being subject to a vile homicidal herem campaign.”

      Fundamentally, it seems like Atzmon has a problem with individual self-determination. That is, he cannot understand how a person can define Jewishness to mean something personal. There can only be this rigidly defined category of Jewishness that he subjects to logical analysis. It doesn’t help that his definition of Jewishness appears to be rather selective (notice the mention only of the Old Testament in the above quote) as well as inaccurate (“love thy neighbor” not being original to Christ). Regardless, someone needs to tell Atzmon that the first step to understanding a person’s identity is to accept that person’s self-definition at face value. That is, begin with the assumption that there are as many Jewishnesses as there are Jews. Furthermore, I would also venture to say that everyone’s identity will break down at some point under strict logical analysis.

      Reply to Comment
    21. Dhalgren

      Well, after reading more of Atzmon’s writings I can definitely see why the US Palestinian Community Network and Electronic Intifada would want to disavow him. Personally, I am open to his critiques of Zionism. His views on Jewishness are destructive to individuality, however. If your point of view destroys the ability of an individual to define her/himself (in this case by superimposing your own categorical definition), that is a deal breaker for me. I never like to think of cutting off the channels of argumentation, though. So I am glad to see he will be engaged in debate on Mondoweiss (which Bill Pearlman shamefully characterizes by a small minority of the comments). Looks like I will have to sign up for an account and join the debate.

      Reply to Comment
    22. Aaron the Fascist Troll

      Political movements have to draw borders and police them, and this looks like a good border for the Palestinian liberation movement to draw. It’s both moral and pragmatic. Associating with anti-Semites just gives ammunition to those who spread the falsehood that anti-Zionism is some kind of a code word for anti-Semitism.
      *
      It’s different for those of us who don’t belong to any political movement. Why should we care whether someone is anti-Semitic or not? It’s not our business to judge the purity of his soul. Even if it were, I don’t think that anti-Semitism is *inherently* wrong. (My definition of anti-Semitism: opposing Jews *as* Jews.) It can be bad, good, or neutral, depending on the context. Agree or disagree—and I guess it’s more likely that you disagree—the fact remains that some anti-Semites have valuable insights about Jews. So let’s seriously listen to the smart, insightful ones, which probably includes Atzmon, and ignore or condemn the morons. As I’ve said before, your enemies will tell you truths that your friends are too polite to utter.

      Reply to Comment
    23. Aaron the Fascist Troll

      Dhalgren, I don’t see those quotes as anti-Semitic. In fact, I agree with Atzmon there, but with the valuation reversed. But I’m not commenting to argue about that big stuff, because we probably have little common ground. I mostly just wanted to say that Jesus did, in fact, introduce “love thy neighbor” in its Christian, universal sense, with the parable of the Good Samaritan. The traditional Jewish understanding of that commandment was, in Atzmon’s terminology, intolerant.

      Reply to Comment
    24. Steve

      Gilad Atzmon is openly a neo-nazi.

      The neo-nazis at electronic intifada and other such places that seek to undo the existence of the world’s only Jewish homeland realize they aren’t allowed to be openly neo-nazi because it’s bad for publicity, so they have to disavow him.

      Reply to Comment
    25. Steve

      These entire disgusting groups of people all have something in common: They all want to destroy Israel. The mondoweiss people, neo-nazis, islamic fundamentalists, gilad Atzmon, the electronic intifada maniacs, etc. They’re all on the “destroy Israel” side. Some want to do it via terrorism and war. Some want to do it with a “Right of return” that turns Israel into a Palestinian state and makes Jews a minority. Some want to do it with a “one-state solution” that does the same. They all want to wipe Israel out and make it so Jews no longer have a state on planet Earth. THey just differ on how to do it and how honest to be about their goals.

      That’s the truth. Everyone knows it.

      Reply to Comment
    26. Dhalgren

      @Aaron the Fascist Troll
      I guess I must honor your wish not to “argue about that big stuff.” I do agree with much of what you say in your first post. Can I ask why your definition of antisemitism doesn’t apply to the quotes of Atzmon’s I posted? I ask because I can see ways to interpret your definition that would apply to the quotes.

      As to the “love thy neighbor” issue, I was not critiquing the significance of Jesus’ statement in and of itself. I appreciate any attempt to expand the application of that principle in any way. Rather, I was critiquing the way Atzmon ignored the Jewish precedent entirely and suggested the ideas of harmony and love did not exist (presumably he is speaking only of Jewish society?) before Christianity.

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    27. Bobz

      XYZ what do u know about the Palestinian population?? i’m palestinian living in palesitne and know a lot of people, this text 100% represents them, the majority of palestinian population is not anti semitic but anti zionist… the only reason some people had strong reactions and turn to “violence” is against zionists against people who are directly harming them, meanwhile most palestinian leaders and palestinian cities jews who arent armed and wanting to kill them find no confrontation….

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    28. bobz

      plus these names are of palestinins some even living in palestine or have been raised in palestine but are in the states for now! or are refugees!

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    29. WTF is a “conspiracy-theorist”?
      What is the meaning of that term in this context? Does it describe anything factual? Or relevant?

      I can think of quite a few people and arguments, that in certain context, could be labeled ‘conspiracy theorists’.

      I never heard of this Gilad Atzmon. I’m merely speaking to the text here on 972.

      If history has taught us anything is that there always is a conspiracy. It might not be known, it might not be relevant, but it can still be there. Therefore can be hypothesized about. Would anyone alluding to such a possibility be labeled a “conspiracy theorist” and therefore beyond the pale?

      Reply to Comment
    30. Rysk

      Noam,
      This is all well and good but Gilad Atzmon is lionized by the PSC rank and file in the U.K

      At a recent meeting in London over 25% of PSC members voted against expelling an Atzmon acolyte who openly questions the Holocaust, from the PSC

      Reply to Comment
    31. XYZ

      Bobz-
      I know, I know, we have all heard it a thousand times….Muslims and Arabs hold Jews and Judaism in the HIGHEST regard, they just have a problem with Zionism.
      That’s why virtually all the Jews who lived in the Arab/Muslim countries of the Middle East before 1948 fled those countries…because things were so good for them there.
      That’s why suicide bombers wearing explosive vests filled with shrapnel dipped in rat poison killed something like 1500 Israelis a few years ago….because of the great regard Palestinians have for Jews.
      That’s why the International Solidarity Movement of which Rachel Corrie was a member tells its participants before they come to aid the Palestinian revolution that they are going to hear the Palestinians say things like “the Jews are scum, the Jews are trash, but when they say ‘Jew’ they actually mean ‘Zionist'”.
      That’s why the completely non-Zionist Haredi Jewish community in Hevron was massacred in 1929…because of the high regard Muslim-Arabs have for Jews.
      That’s why the imam of the mosque in Gaza, in Arafat’s presence called on the audience to kill every Jew they can get their hands on-This was reported by CBS “60 Minutes” reporter Mike Wallace who is no friend of Israel and he confronted Arafat with the tape of it (Arafat said he ‘didn’t hear it’). This imam certainly holds Jews in high regard.
      That’s why Muslim preachers regularly quote the Qur’an verse comparing Jews with pigs and apes….because of their high regard for Jews and Judaism.
      That’s why, after the Six-Day War when Jews returned to the looted Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem they found the sacred Torah Scrolls ripped up and laying all over the ground….this is because of the high regard Muslim/Arabs hold Jews and Judaism.

      Reply to Comment
    32. sh

      @Bobz-XYZ and Steve have done what they always do: hijack any discussion on any subject here by treating readers to the same tropes.
      .
      Ali Abunimah is an intelligent man in recognizing danger in the BDS movement’s unquestioning embrace of Atzmon. Too many pro-Palestinians climbed onto that bandwagon and some found themselves galloping on to the next logical stop: an Icke and his vast audience of reptile experts; it is not the last on that road. – Atzmon’s basically one of many Israelis who learned about the Maccabees and Massada at school and thinks he got a Jewish education.
      .
      On the subject of taking all Jews for Israelis and all Israelis for Jews, this is what Israel both promotes and then grumbles about as XYZ does in his:
      “That’s why the International Solidarity Movement of which Rachel Corrie was a member tells its participants before they come to aid the Palestinian revolution that they are going to hear the Palestinians say things like “the Jews are scum, the Jews are trash, but when they say ‘Jew’ they actually mean ‘Zionist’”.”
      .
      When they say Jews are *scum* they’re likely to mean Zionists unfortunately, but that means they call all Jews, *including* Zionists, Jews. Because they’ll also tell you about Jewish friendships before ’48 using exactly the same word, Yahood. These stories, using XYZ’s tired trope about Hebron ’29 as an example, are confirmed by Jews, incidentally. Whole Jewish families in the Hebron area averted of imminent danger, convinced to leave their houses to be sheltered for several weeks with the warmest of hospitality, by their Arab neighbors.

      Reply to Comment
    33. Yonatan

      Abe Foxman has stated that to oppose Israel’s attack on Iran, i.e. the willful murder of Iranians – is anti-semitic. Zionists and Israel firsters are world class semantic gymnasts! There should be a special competition in the Olympic Games for them. LOL!

      Reply to Comment
    34. BOOZ

      @Lauren:

      Nothing hateful , really ?

      It didn’t take me very long to find this on the Engage Online website :
      (http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/question-to-the-dean-of-bradford-is-atzmon-an-antisemite-or-is-he-not/)

      The following is from Atzmon’s new book:

      While the Holocaust “was not at all an historical narrative,” the “accusations of Jews making matzo out of young Goyim’s blood,” may be true (page 175, 185).

      Jews caused the recent credit crunch, which the author calls “the Zio-punch” (page 22).

      The American media “failed to warn the American people of the enemy within” because of money (page 27).

      “[M]ore and more Jews are being pulled into an obscure, dangerous and unethical fellowship” (page 21).

      If Iran and Israel fight a nuclear war that kills millions of people, “some may be bold enough to argue that ‘Hitler might have been right after all’” (page 179).

      The “new Jewish religion…could well be the most sinister religion known to man…” (page 149).

      Reply to Comment
    35. The truth will out.

      The matzo story may well be true. This shouldn’t mean that ALL Jews (ie. those of Jewish descent) should be held accountable. Claiming that such a story occurred need not mean that all people of Jewish descent should be hated. THAT would indeed be antisemitism (which is what Hitler did).

      Also, just because there might be a Jewish cabal in banking and politics – pulling the strings in a conspiratorial fashion – shouldn’t mean that all Jews should be hated. Neither does it mean that all Jews are “in on it”. This can be gauged factually. Hatefulness and antisemitism don’t need to play into it.

      If Hitler talked of such a cabal, and such a cabal would turn out to exist – then indeed “some may be bold enough to argue that ‘Hitler might have been right after all’”. Which is NOT to say that Hitler was right in killing people of Jewish ethnicity. The later is antisemitism. The former can be evaluated factually.

      One should distinguish Jewish descent (we can’t control that) and automatic standing up for Jews anywhere, doing anything (we can control that). Jews should also be able to “self-determine” themselves as “no longer Jewish” if they so wish. Jewish culture however does not really allow us that degree of self-determination.

      It could well be argued that a conspirator (especially a Jewish or Zionist conspirator) would cry antisemitism at any criticism leveled his group of Jews and thus escape scrutiny. Some claim that this is indeed the case. They are usually labeled antisemites and their criticism dismissed off-hand.

      Today there are many politicians and people of standing in many countries who call themselves Zionists. Some of them are not even Jewish!

      What better way of hiding a conspiracy then behind the false Protocols of the Elders. ie. an accepted falsehood describing exactly such a conspiracy.

      It is all within the realm of the possible. Critical thinking demands of us that we question everything. Meaning one is allowed to question even the holocaust. Even if questioning it might lead us to the conclusion that it is true and factual. At this point in history Jews and Zionists have a monopoly on the truth of the holocaust. Monopolies are bad – they are usually abused.

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    36. Michael W.

      You guys should read the comments section the Mondoweiss article on this letter. Many of the people there are fuming and are expressing support of Gilad Atzmon. I’ve never seen so much in-fighting since the Norman Finkelstein episode … which wasn’t that long ago.

      Reply to Comment
    37. Goodwin

      Atzmon is actually sort of an interesting litmus test. There are those who don’t see anything short of ‘kill the Jew’ as ‘really’ anti-Semitism. When they encounter someone like Atzmon, they twist in their seats and say ‘well he says some uncomfortable provocative things’ but if you object to his anti-Semitism you get a stern lecture about ‘gatekeeping’ and ‘thought police’ and such, as if the problem isn’t Atzmon’s anti-Semitism but the people who are bothered by it.

      Well, I do not apologize for refusing to associate with a man who raises funds for Holocaust deniers, and for condemning those who find it politically expedient to ignore – or, worse, to argue away as irrelevant – Atzmon’s anti-Semitism.

      The unmasking of Atzmon has been a long time coming, and it’s here not a moment too soon.

      Reply to Comment
    38. Goodwin

      “Critical thinking demands of us that we question everything. Meaning one is allowed to question even the holocaust. Even if questioning it might lead us to the conclusion that it is true and factual. At this point in history Jews and Zionists have a monopoly on the truth of the holocaust. Monopolies are bad – they are usually abused.”

      Again, the existence of the Holocaust is neither Jewish history or non-Jewish history, neither Zionist history or anti-Zionist history, but simply history.

      Reply to Comment
    39. Michael W.

      Now Atzmon’s defenders on Mondoweiss are linking to 9/11 troofer and holocaust-denying websites to defend him. Classic Mondoweiss.

      Reply to Comment
    40. Aaron the Fascist Troll

      Dhalgren, I completely agree with you, those quotes *were* anti-Semitic in the way I use that word. I was wrong when I said that they weren’t, and I’m glad you’ve given me the chance to correct my mistake here.
      *
      But, again, my question is, so what if the quotes are anti-Semitic? Are they true? Are they insightful?

      Reply to Comment
    41. joe

      In a way this is old news – Atzmon has been disowned by a lot of Palestinian solidarity groups for years. Some of those who most vocally condemn Israel have been denouncing him for at least 5 years and probably more.

      It appears that he (Atzmon) has latterly come to prominence again via his online verbal diarrhea where he often appears to try to speak for a whole movement of which he is not an accepted part. There is a lesson there for everyone.

      On the plus side, at least the Palestinian solidarity groups are grown-up enough to out extreme elements in this way. It’d be nice if more people on all sides would do the same.

      @Rysk – even using your own numbers, 75% of PSC members voted against the people you mention.

      @xyz – I’m not sure there is any great lesson to learn from the Hebron massacres. In 1929, some brave Muslim families helped save their Jewish neighbours – albeit a small number. There have been many violent episodes in that sad place, so making a sweeping statement in either direction is not helpful or accurate.

      Reply to Comment
    42. joe

      Aaron – Atzmon is a fool. Why do we have to pick apart his demented ravings to see if there is any truth in them?

      Reply to Comment
    43. Steve

      Islamic fundamentalists want to destroy Jewish Israel via war/terrorism.
      Mondoweiss wants to destroy Jewish Israel via “one-state solution”
      Electronic Intifada wants to destroy Jewish Israel via “right of return”
      Neo-nazis want to destroy Jewish Israel by any of the above.
      Ben White, other antisemites are on board with mondoweiss/electronic infidada.
      Same with Gilad Atzmon, the neo-nazi.

      They’re all one mentally ill group. The “remove the Jewish state of Israel from existence” group. They’re all on one side. They’re all bad people. They don’t want peace. They just want the world’s only Jewish state to be removed from the map. They just disagree how to do it.
      .
      No true “progressives” or “peace activists” should be supporting any of them.

      Reply to Comment
    44. @Goodwin:
      “Again, the existence of the Holocaust is neither Jewish history or non-Jewish history, neither Zionist history or anti-Zionist history, but simply history.”
      Precisely!
      Which is why questioning the holocaust historically is not antisemitism.
      Which is why I don’t “twist in my seat” when someone says “uncomfortable provocative” things about Jewish history. I relish in it.
      Dismissing someone like Atzmon off-hand for saying what he does unapologetically, seems like ‘self-thought-policing’. The ‘antisemitism’ label has been used so much by so many to dismiss and ignore criticism and to silence critics, that I consciously go the opposite way when I hear it nowadays. I actually assume there’s some truth there that Jews in power don’t want me to know about.

      I never heard of Atzmon before this post, but I’m sure to check him out now 🙂
      I’d love to know more of what he’s saying even if (or perhaps because) people like Noam Sheizaf label him a “conspiracy-theorist” – as if that term has anything to do with anything.

      Reply to Comment
    45. goodwin

      “Arnon” – ‘Which is why questioning the holocaust historically is not antisemitism.’

      Unless, of course, what you’re doing is not ‘questioning it’ but simply repeating the same pack of antisemitic lies that Ernst Zündel and his gang were trying to sell thirty years ago to spruce up the reputation of his hero Hitler.

      All Atzmon and his cadre are doing is trying to repackage far-right anti-Semitism, lie for lie, as ‘anti-Zionism.’ And it couldn’t be clearer than in his embrace of Holocaust denial.

      And some people just can’t get enough of that, and celebrate his ‘breaking the taboos’.

      Reply to Comment
    46. Steve

      Clueless, repulsive ARNON SCHWANZINGER says: Which is why questioning the holocaust historically is not antisemitism.
      Which is why I don’t “twist in my seat” when someone says “uncomfortable provocative” things about Jewish history. I relish in it.
      Dismissing someone like Atzmon off-hand for saying what he does unapologetically, seems like ‘self-thought-policing’.”

      People dismiss Atzmon because they read him and see he’s a friggin NEO-NAZI HATEMONGER.

      Reply to Comment
    47. Steve

      AARON THE FASCIST TROLL said: “so what if the quotes are anti-Semitic? Are they true?”

      AARON THE FASCIST TROLL is another here who doesn’t mind antisemitism.

      Interesting collection of people here at 972! “What’s wrong with Holocaust-revision? What’s wrong with antisemitism?”
      .
      Wow

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    48. Steve

      Repulsive ARNON SCHWANZINGER said: “At this point in history Jews and Zionists have a monopoly on the truth of the holocaust.”

      Uh, hey Arnon, Germany, Poland, etc. COMPLETELY AGREE with the “Jewish” and “zionist” version of the truth on the Holocaust.
      Maybe you’ should go join a white supremecist or neo-nazi site. You’d honestly fit in there fine.

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    49. Dhalgren

      @Aaron the Fascist Troll
      You said: “But, again, my question is, so what if the quotes are anti-Semitic? Are they true? Are they insightful?”

      Ah. I see. So you are saying antisemitic comments can contain accurate premises. The simplest response to this is: that is true, but so can non-antisemitic comments with the added benefit of not being antisemitic. One can critique prejudices held by Jews without imposing a definition of Jewishness, as Atzmon does.

      @Steve
      You feed right into the antisemitic mentality. Do you realize that? Your comments are the very kind brought up by those neo-Nazis and white supremacists to show how conspiratorial Jews are. The answer to prejudice, fear and hate is reason and compassion, not more of the same.

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    50. @Goodwin:
      I’ve yet to read anything that Atzmon has written. So you might well be right. Nor do I know who Ernst Zündel is. They could well be full of shit.

      As for “antisemitic lies”: while I might have taken such statements at face value once, I don’t anymore. That term has lost all meaning to me. Recent history has shown me that most uses of that term ‘antisemitc’ have been to dismiss any sort of criticism of Israel’s policy and Zionism. So I am more reserved nowadays in passing judgment. In fact the term ‘antisemitic’ is leveled at any criticism of anything even remotely Jewish. That in itself is profoundly antisemitic.

      Steve’s comments right below your own are a case in point: “Maybe you’ should go join a white supremecist or neo-nazi site. You’d honestly fit in there fine.”
      Any questioning of the Zionist or Jewish narrative is labeled ‘Neo-Nazi’. This is automatic. Unquestioned. Unquestionable.
      And on a personal note I’m a bit fed up with the Zionist “narrative” I was brought up with and its denial of others’ Nakba. Denying other peoples tragedies while insisting on one’s own, just strikes me as odd. And perhaps dishonest.

      Has there been Holocaust-revision done by Jews and Zionists? I honestly don’t know. But I’d like to find out. From a realpolitik point of view it does not seem so far fetched. It might even be expedient. The victors, after all, write the history. While we usually mean that metaphorically, I assume those in power take that quite literally. I certainly wouldn’t put it beyond the Abe Foxman’s and Alan Dershowitz’s of the world to do just that. And Jews are everywhere in academy, the arts, Hollywood, Nobel prizes, US politics, banking – and proud of it. I wouldn’t put it past a select few to do quite a lot of damage. And the rest to fall in line unwittingly.

      Holocaust denial is a hate crime. The term ‘Holocaust denial’ though, is used to encompasses ANY criticism of accepted dogma, even those not denying the holocaust – just criticizing certain aspects of it. Disallowing criticism by law is just so much lawfare (not to mention an impediment to freedom of speech). And lawfare is something that Israel and self-proclaimed Zionists worldwide have become very adept at. And proud of its successes.

      Recent history has made me very suspicious of what I was raised to believe – starting with what money is, what banks are, how they affect world-events and nations, etc.
      If 1930’s Nazis were saying pretty much the same things being said of the IMF and World Bank today by mainstream movements like ‘occupy’, then that’s that. I guess searching for the truth mandates sifting through all that Nazi shit too. No easy task.

      Also seeing what my country has become, I’m no longer upset by the label ‘Neo-Nazi’ as I could just as easily use it to describe my own White-supremacist government (were it not illegal, of course :p )

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