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On Eid al-Fitr, some Palestinians get their first visit to the sea

Traveling from cities and villages across the West Bank, thousands of Palestinians celebrate the holiday of Eid a-Fitr at the beach. For many, it was their first time there. For others, it was their first time in half a century. 

By Oren Ziv

Palestinians from the West Bank enjoy the beach in Tel Aviv- Jaffa during the Eid al-Fitr holiday. June 17, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Palestinians from the West Bank enjoy the beach in Tel Aviv- Jaffa during the Eid al-Fitr holiday. June 17, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Thousands of Palestinians from the West Bank celebrated the holiday of Eid al-Fitr, which marks the end of the holy Muslim month of Ramadan, on the beaches of Tel Aviv and Jaffa over the past two days. For many, it was their first time there — a visit made possible by special entry permits issued by the army for the holiday.

In the evening hours, between the Jaffa Clock Tower and the beach, van drivers shout, “Nil’in, Beit Sira, Qalandia checkpoint, Hebron,” waiting to fill their vans to drive back to the West Bank. Most of the revelers, however, prefer to spend every minute they can on the beach.

Palestinians from the West Bank swim near Jaffa during the Eid al-Fitr holiday. June 17, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Palestinians from the West Bank swim near Jaffa during the Eid al-Fitr holiday. June 17, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

That’s where I meet Raed from the village of Nil’in in the West Bank. “This is my son’s first time at the beach,” Raed says. “He’s very excited.” By his side, in a wheelchair, sits his 85-year-old mother. She bends down to touch the water, which she hasn’t seen for nearly 50 years.

For many Palestinians living in the West Bank, entry permits to Israel unrelated to work or medical care are rare and hard to come by. Over the past several years, during Eid al-Fitr, tens of thousands of Palestinians receive temporary entry permits — and many choose to spend their time at the beach. In the West Bank, only a small part of the Dead Sea is accessible to Palestinians.

Palestinians from the West Bank swim near Jaffa during the Eid al-Fitr holiday. June 17, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Palestinians from the West Bank swim near Jaffa during the Eid al-Fitr holiday. June 17, 2018. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Further down the beach in Tel Aviv, I meet a couple from Ramallah in their 30s. They sit on the rocks and watch a police patrol boat near the shore. It is the woman’s first time at the beach. “We crossed by way of the Modi’in checkpoint and there were tons of people from the West Bank on their way here,” she says. “The children just go crazy, they don’t want to leave.”

As we talk, loudspeakers shout instructions and warnings to the swimmers in Hebrew and Arabic. The lifeguards ask those remaining to exit the water, but most aren’t listing. They want to make the most of every moment they have until midnight — when their permits expire and they must return home.

A couple takes a selfie as Palestinians from the West Bank celebrate Eid al-Fitr at the beach in Tel Aviv-Jaffa. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

A couple takes a selfie as Palestinians from the West Bank celebrate Eid al-Fitr at the beach in Tel Aviv-Jaffa. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

“If only we could come here every day,” the woman from Ramallah continues. “But they only give us permits for a day or two a year.”

A different family from Nablus says they received permits for the whole family, but that when they arrived to the checkpoint on the way to the beach, the teenagers were not allowed to pass.

Oren Ziv is a photojournalist with the Activestills collective. This article was first published in Hebrew on Local Call. Read it here.

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    1. Baladi Akka 1948

      I wonder how many of the Palestinians visiting the sea in Yafa come from families who were kicked out from there in 1948.
      #WeWillReturn

      Reply to Comment
      • biff bruno

        Certainly fewer in number than those Jews who were expelled from seaside Alexandria by Nasser

        Reply to Comment
        • Baladi Akka 1948

          Yeah, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about ! Nearly 100.000 native Palestiniens were exiled from Yafa, that’s more than the whole Jewish population in Egypt (of whom many were not Egyptin nationals).
          #Hasbara101

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            I wonder how many of those Palestinians belong to tribes/families of Arabs who tried to destroy Israel and slaughter all the Jews in 1948. I wonder how many of those Arabs belong to families/tribes from the Arab countries which kicked out hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees. You seem to be forgetting what happened in 1948, when the Arabs tried to destroy Israel and slaughter the Jews.

            #WeWillReturn – sure, the same way as those hundreds of thousands Jewish refugees return to the various Arab/Islamic countries who kicked them out. you should change it to #WeShouldNeverHaveRejectedThePartitionPlan

            Reply to Comment
          • duh

            #WeShouldNeverHaveRejectedThePartitionPlan

            The Zionist Congress in 1937 rejected the Peel Commission plan – they accepted the idea of partition, but not the plan full stop. Ben-Gurion advocated acceptance only because it proposed transferring Arabs out of the “Jewish” state.

            “What is inconceivable in normal times is possible in revolutionary times . . .
            Any doubt on our part about the necessity of this transfer, any doubt we cast about the possibility of its implementation, any hesitancy on our part about its justice, may lose [us] an historic opportunity that may not recur . . . If we do not succeed in removing the Arabs from our midst, when a royal commission proposes this to England, and transferring them to the Arab area – it will not be achievable easily (and perhaps at all) after the [Jewish] state is established . . . This thing must be done now – and the first step – perhaps the crucial [step] – is conditioning ourselves for its implementation.’ 23”

            (Morris, Birth… Revisited, 46-49)

            Ben-Gurion’s attitude to the UN plan itself suggests had the Arab side accepted it, that would’ve been no guarantee of peace. On 3 Dec. 1947 he said to the Histadrut Executive meeting:
            “in the area allocated to the Jewish state there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs (apart from the Jews of Jerusalem, who will also be citizens of the state). Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish state, at the time of its establishment, will be about a million people, almost 40 percent non-Jews. Such a composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish state. This fact must be seen in all its clarity and acuteness. Such a composition does not even give us absolute assurance that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority.”
            (quoted in Flapan, Birth of Israel…, 31-32)

            Note that as per UNGA 181, the proposed “Jewish” and “Arab” states had to grant citizenship to everyone who fell within their boundary lines.

            For good measure, he wrote to his son in 1937:
            “Let us assume that the Negev will not be allotted to the Jewish state. (…) it is possible that the Arabs will follow the dictates of sterile nationalist emotions and tell us: “We want neither your honey nor your sting. We’d rather that the Negev remain barren than that Jews should inhabit it.” If this occurs, we will have to talk to them in a different language—and we will have a different language—but such a language will not be ours without a state. (…) But if we are compelled to use force – not in order to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but in order to guarantee our right to settle there – our force will enable us to do so.
            palestineremembered.com/download/B-G%20LetterTranslation.pdf

            There was little reason for the Arab Palestinians to put their trust in the little Munich Agreement known as the UN Partition Plan.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            @Duh, as opposed to all the other countries created the same way by a similar plan ?
            The land wasn’t just divided along population lines, but land ownership was also considered. In 1945 the British commissioned a survey of land ownership in Mandatory Palestine for the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry on Palestine. The proposed Jewish state included the areas with heavy Jewish land ownership, while Arab state was formed from of the regions where Arabs owned the majority of land.
            The decision to partition Palestine was not just determined by demographics and land ownership. Jews and Arabs had been fighting over the land for decades, both making irreconcilable territorial claims to the lan. Partition seemed the only viable solution.
            Partition and state creation was incredibly common during this period, just one hundred years ago none of the states surrounding Israel today existed as independent countries (Jordan, Syria or Lebanon and Egypt), they were all created by European colonial powers in the twentieth century.
            The Jews were one of the largest ethnic groups in the region and they were to be awarded a tiny strip of land in their ancestral homeland.
            On top of the Jewish ancestral claim, and the claim of self-determination that was granted to other ethnic groups of that era. The Jewish state was also born out of necessity, the Holocaust had seen six million Jews slaughtered throughout Europe and massacres were occurring throughout the Arab world (thousands of Jews were murdered in Muslim lands in the period between the holocaust and establishment of Israel). The Jewish people needed a refuge where they could escape centuries of persecution.
            Faced with all of these claims, the Arabs rejected the two state solution and have waged war on the tiny Jewish State ever since.

            Jews formed a majority in the region that the United Nations proposed as a Jewish homeland.
            The UN proposed Arab homeland contained the areas where Arab land ownership was highest, they didn’t own the entire land.
            All of the states that border Israel are modern creations, but their ‘fairness’ is rarely questioned.

            Reply to Comment
          • Baladi Akka 1948

            You do know that Tunisian and Moroccan Jews still have their original nationality or could claim it back, don’t you ? Many Iraqi Jews still have their Iraqi nationality too, they are free to go back.
            Don’t waste you basic hasbara on us about the “millions of Jews who were kicked out of the Arab States”, we all know about the role of the Jewish Agency, the Lavon affair, the 1950-51 bombings in Baghdad by Israeli spies etc etc,

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            I didn’t say millions of Jews, that’s you lying. And why don’t Jews return to Arab/Islamic countries en masse ? how can they not want to live in such paradises of human rights, freedom, prosperity and democracies ? especially as Jews ? this is sarcasm by the way if you didn’t get it.
            “we all know about the role of the Jewish Agency” – please, byt all means, to whicj conspiracy do you refer ?
            ” the Lavon affair” – was about making the British government keep its troops in Egypt’s Suez Canal.
            “the 1950-51 bombings in Baghdad by Israeli spies” – conspiracy theory, debunked. Read Moshe Gat, Mordechai Ben Porat, etc.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            – Baladi Akka 1948 was not talking about a “conspiracy,” she was, as I see it, talking about the fact that what is called a “Jewish nakba” for propaganda purposes was in fact a major success fulfilling the goals and purpose and strategy and tactics of the state of Israel. (See Bruce Gould’s reply to you on this not being “a live issue, it’s an issue among the graduates of Hasbara U.”)

            – ” the Lavon affair” – was about making the British government keep its troops in Egypt’s Suez Canal *by employing terrorism.* As Ido would invariably say, “looks like you forgot that.”

            – Who perpetrated the Baghdad bombing is a far more contentious and unsettled question than you will admit to. It is not simply a “conspiracy theory, debunked.”

            We see being employed here an anti-semitizing “conspiracy-thinking” accusation tactic in the first and third examples here.

            I wish to add that I am not speaking for Baladi Akka 1948. These are my comments alone.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            First, she starts with obvious nonsense, as if Jews from Israel will immigrate en masse to places like Tunisian or Morocco. Then she lied about something I never said (millions of Jews) which I’m sure you can relate as a proven liar.
            I was referring to “we all know about the role of the Jewish Agency” regarding Jews leaving Arab countries and then pointing out covert actions including terrorism. The lie of the agency forcing or coercing Jews to leave Arab/Islamic countries conspiracy theory seems to be very popular among pro-Palestinians for obvious reasons.
            “what is called a “Jewish nakba” for propaganda purposes” – um, the historic fact of Jews kicked out of Arab/Islamic countries, leaving behind property worth hundreds of billions of dollars today, is well documented.
            Unlike the Palestinians they are not used as political pawns for decades but were integrated, not without problems, into Israel.
            “was in fact a major success fulfilling the goals and purpose and strategy and tactics of the state of Israel” – are you even aware, just a bit, about the persecution and violence Jews suffered in some Arab/Islamic countries ? especially after the re-establishment of Israel ? about the rooted anti-semitism in the Arab world ?
            Of course it was a success, Jews were saved and brought back to their ancestral homeland.
            “See Bruce Gould’s reply” – I answered him quite clearly.
            “the Lavon affair was about making the British government keep its troops in Egypt’s Suez Canal by employing terrorism” – i Know.
            “As Ido would invariably say, “looks like you forgot that” – what I said was incorrect ? did someone ask me bout it ? coming from someone who as I proved in detail in many articles here is a clueless liar who has no idea what you’re talking about this is very amusing.
            “It is not simply a “conspiracy theory, debunked.” – based on recent reports it is. I gave a few names if you want to look into it. Do you have any better counter evidence ? I’ll gladly read it.
            “We see being employed here an anti-semitizing, conspiracy-thinking” – hilarious. Especially coming from someone who I proved in detail is a liar who buys pro-Palestinian lying nonsense as truth while ignoring clear evidence pointing it out, repeatedly.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Picking out the sapphires from the mud here…

            “as I proved in detail”

            That tireless Geller classic. We get a kick out of it every time. (But it’s ok, we can live without it.)

            “I’ll gladly read it.”

            Then go read it. There’s plenty of things written by reputable historians and journalists that make it clear this issue is far from settled and is still quite murky and cannot be simplified to a right wing hasbara talking point. You don’t need to have me spoon feed it to you or pretend it is not there. Or lure me into an endless pseudo-debate on it, which would please you and displease me.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “That tireless Geller classic. We get a kick out of it every time” – so in the alternative reality where you reside all these comments posts proving in detail how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about doesn’t exist ?
            Or is it your denial flaring up again ?

            This one also has a detailed list of your lies:
            https://972mag.com/how-gazas-return-march-can-elevate-the-one-state-movement/135870/

            Another with a detailed list of your lies and errors:
            https://972mag.com/palestinian-poet-convicted-of-inciting-terror-in-facebook-poem/135087/

            Some more:
            https://972mag.com/youre-far-more-likely-to-be-killed-protesting-in-gaza-than-firing-a-rocket/134952/
            https://972mag.com/thousands-of-israelis-palestinians-mark-memorial-day-together/134779/

            I can go on as you are well aware. Would you like me to ?

            “make it clear this issue is far from settled” – but from your post I assume it was. So you lied again ?

            “Or lure me into an endless pseudo-debate on it, which would please you and displease me.” – oh I bet it would. Proving to you repeatedly how you have no idea what you’re talking about, how you lie again and again, must be uncomfortable. And yes I admit, I find you entertaining.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Picking out the sapphires from the mud here” – hilarious, didn’t notice this gem. “I’ll ignore you pointing out how you were right, how I lied and how I was wrong and instead focus on this”.

            Comedy gold.

            Reply to Comment
          • Baladi Akka 1948

            The millions-of-Jews-kicked-out of-the-Arab-countries was of course parroting the hasbara lines on the topic !
            And of course the Baghdad bombings by Mossad agents hasn’t been debunked, as the ring was arrested, and you know how ? Because a Palestinian refugee from Akka who worked in a department store in Baghdad recognized an Iraqi Jew that he knew back in Akka prior to the Nakba, he called the police and the guy was arrested, with the rest of the ring, he was released after 10 years in Iraqi prison and went back to Israel, you can find interviews with the guy his name is Yehudah Tajar. You can also read Naim Giladi, another Iraqi Jews, on the topic. And the Jewish Agency’s work is well-documented too, in places like Morocco and Tunisia, Kamel Hachkar, a Moroccan film maker made a documentary, with testimonies from Moroccans immigrants to Israel who explained how the Agency convinced them of leaving for Israel (“Tinghir-Jerusalem”, in French, Hebrew and Arabic, on youtube)….

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            The millions-of-Jews-kicked..” – but that was never said, nor did I said it. That’s you lying. And it isn’t “hasbara lines”, it’s a historic event. Unlike the Palestinian refugees who are used by the Arab/Islamic world as political pawns against Israel, the Jewish
            refugees were integrated and became citizens. Palestinians are treated like dirt in the Arab/islamic world (when they are not butchered like in Syria) and are looked upon by their Arab bretherns as sub-humans, nothing more than a strategic tool against Israel.
            “And of course the Baghdad bombings by Mossad agents hasn’t been debunked” – there are contradicting reports and recent investigations did debunk the conspiracy claims.
            “Yehudah Tajar” – he claimed the widow of one of the Jewish activists implied he had organized attacks after his colleagues were arrested. In the article quoted him it is said that in the Haganah archives correspondence between Mossad agents in Baghdad and their
            handlers in Tel Aviv is preserved, and includes their reports on the synagogue bombing. The impression that arises from the exchange of telegrams is that the Mossad agents in Baghdad and their superiors in Tel Aviv did not know who was responsible for the attack.
            The actual Yehuda Tager quote says the bombing of the Masuda Shemtov synagogue was not carried out by Israelis, but by members of the Muslim Brotherhood. However, at least one activist from the Zionist underground, Yosef Beit-Halahmi, did apparently carry out several terror attacks after the arrest of his comrades as revenge.
            You’re confusing 2 incidents:
            https://web.archive.org/web/20080504154232/http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=703367

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “You can also read Naim Giladi” – an Anti-Zionist Jew will lie about this ? never! the guy who spreads the conspiracy nonsense of “Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel” ? yes, let’s take him as a credible source, especially since there is other evidence, which you mentioned yourself, which contradicts him.
            “the Jewish Agency’s work is well-documented” – this conspiracy theory seems to be quite popular, I didn’t know that. What Jews endured in Arab/Islamic countries, especially after the re-establishment of Israel is also very well documented.
            Please by all means, which documents do you refer to ?
            “Kamel Hachkar, a Moroccan film maker made a documentary” – oh yes, I’m familiar with this Al-Jazeera sponsored video. I wonder why it ignored the overwhelming evidence showing the persecution and discrimination of Moroccon Jews at the first half of the 20th century,
            does it mention the pogroms in the eastern towns of Oujda and Djerrada ?

            https://www.jpost.com/Features/In-Thespotlight/The-Nakba-of-Moroccos-Jews

            Reply to Comment
          • Baladi Akka 1948

            Apparently you’re not aware of the film Tinghir-Jerusalem by Kamel Hackar, first you call it a video and then you claim it’s sponsored by al-Jazeera …. It’s a film about Morrocan Jews from his hometown Tinghir, Hachkar even studied Hebrew and much of the film is taking place in Israel, you’re telling us that these Moroccan Jews were paid by al-Jazeera to lie ….
            We can just conclude that the hasbara about a Jewish equivalent to the Palestinian Nakba is bullshit, +972mag has by the way posted articles debunking it.

            Reply to Comment
          • ido

            “you’re telling us that these Moroccan Jews were paid by al-Jazeera” – I didn’t, I said the movie was sponsored by. I thought I was familiar with the documentary but I was referring to a different documentary with the exact same agenda called “Return to Morocco” with Fanny Mergui, she is mentioned in articles about the movie you mentioned.
            Both films are pushing the same propaganda as they are talking from a personal angle while ignoring the Persecution and abuse suffered by Jews in Morocco, especially after the re-establishment of Israel as I proved to you in the previous, also:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um1JrXSyfNo

            I asked you if you were familiar with this persecution and the pogroms, you haven’t answered. You for some reason also ignored the part where I debunked your Iraqi conspiracy thing, with your own source.
            “We can just conclude that the hasbara about a Jewish equivalent to the Palestinian Nakba is bullshit” – You’re right, they are not equivalent: the Arabs became refugees as a result of the Arab countries’ attempt to destroy Israel and to slaughter the Jews, you are aware that even the Palestinians themselves admit many left on request of the invading Arab armies, right ? they would return to enjoy the spoils of war left by the dead Jews. Things didn’t work out as planned.
            Jews were expelled mostly due to violence, persecution and anti-semitism and wanting to return to their ancestral homeland. Both were expelled from their lands, the difference is that the Jews were not used as political pawns for decades but were intgrated into their new country.
            “+972mag has by the way posted articles debunking it” – debunking what ? that Jews did not leave, or were made to leave, multiple Arab countries at around the same time ? well then, I would really like to read this alternative fiction.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ann

            Around 800,000 Jews had to leave the country of their birth in 1948 when Israel became independent. Countries such as Iraq, Egypt did not want them to be allowed to live there.

            Reply to Comment
        • Lewis from Afula

          Good point, Biff.
          This mag always “forgets” to comment on the mass expulsion of 1 Million Mizrachi Jews – probably because it upsets their “colonial settler” BS narrative.

          Reply to Comment
        • duh

          Technically Nasser didn’t expel Jewish Egyptians, per se, but French and British nationals following the Suez War. Jewish Egyptian nationals certainly suffered because of the Suez War, but there was no direct govt. action forcing them to leave. In fact, there were still 7,000 Jews in Egypt as of the Six-Day war.

          books.google.com/books?id=ENfjCk1IZBcC&pg=PA87

          Of course Zionist figures contemplated removing non-Jews from the hypothetical “Jewish” state a good long while before 1948.

          Reply to Comment
    2. Bruce Gould

      This whole issue of the Jews being kicked out of Arab countries is pretty incredible, because in all the discussions of the IP conflict I’ve ever seen I don’t think I’ve ever heard one single Jew complain about not being allowed back to wherever they were nakba’d out of, whereas Gaza is a giant, upscale concentration camp filled with people whose families are living a few miles from their former homes. That’s not a justification for whatever injustices have been committed against Jews, but it doesn’t seem to be a live issue, it’s an issue among the graduates of Hasbara U.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        Yes, It’s amazing how Jews aren’t flocking en masse to Arab/Islamic countries where in many cases their families were abused or sometimes killed by Muslims/Arabs. Paragons of human rights and freedom, shining beacons of democracy, stability and economic might.
        And I would like to see you enter countries like Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen with an Israeli passport. Hint: you can’t.
        “Gaza is a giant, upscale concentration camp” – hyperbolic nonsense. The situation in Gaza is the result of the actions of the Palestinians themselves, namely their elected Islamic Jihadist terrorists, Hamas. There was no blockade in 2005 following Israel’s withdrawal.
        Even the Palestinians themselves admit the current crisis in Gaza is the result of inner fighting between Hamas and Fatah. And of course Gaza has a border with a country other than Israel, minor fact which seems to be ignored.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          Not quite.

          In replies to both ‘Baladi Akka 1948’ and ‘Bruce Gould,’ Ido Geller side steps, elides, the central question with the same tactic.

          It is pointed out that Jews could return to these countries if they wanted to, and that it is a manufactured propaganda “issue” and that “whereas Gaza is a giant, upscale concentration camp filled with people whose families are living a few miles from their former homes. That’s not a justification for whatever injustices have been committed against Jews, but it doesn’t seem to be a live issue, it’s an issue among the graduates of Hasbara U.”

          Ido’s response in both instances is to say “Yes, It’s amazing how Jews aren’t flocking…why don’t Jews…return en masse.” Which is actually the point in a way Ido does not intend. Jews were given the right of return per the Law of Return to Israel, and that return was facilitated. Everybody talks about aliyah as a return of people to their homeland, Geller most of all. But he won’t touch, with his famous ten foot pole, the fact which he elides: Palestinians want to return too, and are not allowed to return. It is this basic issue Ido is trying to obscure by clucking about how Jews want to stay in their homeland, while avoiding the co-occurring fact that Palestinians who want to return to their homeland cannot. And doing all of this to try to advance a “we had a nakba too (so two wrongs make us right)” line of propaganda as a way of excusing the Palestinian nakba, or avoiding even talking about it.

          I wish to add that I am not speaking for Bruce Gould here, these are of course my comments alone.

          Reply to Comment
          • Lewis from Afula

            Yes, Ben: Let’s sum up your Leftist ideology as it applies to the Middle East:

            1 M Arabs kicked out by Jews – An Original Sin / Catastrophe / Unexcusable Holocaust etc etc
            1 M Jews kicked out by Arabs – no big deal / who cares? / irrelevant

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “In replies to both ‘Baladi Akka 1948’ and ‘Bruce Gould,’ Ido Geller side steps” – what’s with you and lying about me ? seems to be a disorder of some kind.
            “It is pointed out that Jews could return to these countries” – I pointed out how this is ridiculous, as in not going to happen, how can you not grasp this ? it was too sophisticated for you ?
            “and that it is a manufactured propaganda “issue”” – never said this. Simply pointed out, in a way which appears to be too complicated for you, how unrealistic this is.
            “That’s not a justification for whatever injustices have been committed against Jews” – what’s with the lying again and again ? this has nothing to do with it, I never said anything like this.
            “but it doesn’t seem to be a live issue, it’s an issue among the graduates of Hasbara U” – are you having a stroke ? where do you get this stuff from ?
            “Everybody talks about aliyah as a return of people to their homeland” – their historic ancestral homeland. Do try to keep your lies in check.
            “Palestinians want to return too” – sure they do, and turn Israel into a de-facto Arab country, ending Israel without firing a bullet, Arafat’s old dream.
            “and are not allowed to return” – take a look at the Arab countries in the Middle-East, paradises of human rights, freedom, prosperity and beacons of democracy and tolerance, especially for a Jew (this is sarcasm by the way) why on earth will Israel commit national suicide ?
            Israel has offered to compensate Palestinian refugees as part of a peace agreement, the Palestinians won’t have that. Their leaders want to bring in millions of Arabs (refugees and their descendants, because apparently for Palestinians ‘refugee’ is a genetic trait) turning Israel into a de-facto Arab state.
            Why on earth will Israel accept this ? why on earth will Israel commit national suicide ?
            “It is this basic issue Ido is trying to obscure” – really ? how many times have I mentioned this to you ? that Israel will not commit national suicide this way ?
            “Palestinians who want to return to their homeland cannot” – that ship has sailed. When the Arabs tried (for the first time) to destroy Israel and slaughter the Jews. The Arab world should stop perpetuating the Palestinians refugees problem as a tool against Israel. Are you even aware how Palestinians are treated in the Arab world ?
            “we had a nakba too” – bringing an example where refugees were integrated into a country and not used as political and strategic pawns, perpetuating their suffering, is irrelevant, right ?
            “as a way of excusing the Palestinian nakba” – again with the silly lies. I should bring back the lists, this is great stuff.
            “or avoiding even talking about it.” – hilarious.
            “I wish to add that I am not speaking for Bruce Gould here” – no, no, please do. This is great.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            ‘“Ido Geller side steps” – what’s with you and lying about me ?’

            Yup, you sidestepped. And whether you yourself agree or not with that criticism, that you would call my criticism, my critique, “lying,” shows how immature and thin-skinned you are. How not ready for prime time you are. How almost hysterical you are. Someone critiques you and the only response you can manage is a hysterical squawking and flapping of your wings—“you’re lying about me!”

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Yup, you sidestepped” – if by “sidestepped” you mean addressing their posts in detail then yes you’re absolutrly right. I have no idea why you’re lying about this again.
            “my critique” – hilarious. your “critique” was delusional nonsense which I addressed in detail.
            “lying” – you’re claiming things which never happend and things about me which I never said, that is called ‘lying’.
            “shows how immature and thin-skinned you are” – proving your delusional nonsense in detail is “immature and thin-skinned” ? you never ceases to amuse me.
            “How not ready for prime time you are” – hilarious. Says the liar clueless ‘Useful idiot’ who has no idea what he’s talking about as I proved in great detail over and over again.
            “How almost hysterical you are” – that’s your worst deflection attempt yet, almost as bad as you asking people to ignore posts where I proved in detail how you’re a clueless liar. Remember that hilarity ?
            “Someone critiques” – lying and talking easily proven nonsense is not “a critique”.
            “hysterical squawking and flapping of your wings” – oh yes, refuting your lying nonsense, providing detailed evidence and links with post after post showing in great detail how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about is ‘hysterical squawking and flapping of your wings’. Now that’s some powerful “no! you are!” delusional idiocy going on, quite pathetic even by your own standards.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            And…amazingly enough, Ido’s only response to my pointing out that he responds to all critiques by calling the person “a liar” (or “hilarious…clueless…delusional,” etc.) rather than face the criticism–his only response is…to call me a liar. It’s hard to believe, but there it is.
            Ido, you invite ridicule because you’re ridiculous. I have never seen someone so silly and hysterical with the word “liar.” I’ve seen a lot but I’ve never seen someone so cheaply and dishonestly and immaturely throw around the ad hominem “liar” in response to criticism. Did your parents teach you that little Ido was always right and that anyone who criticized him was a big bad meanie and a “liar”? Really you’re ridiculous. If I had a nickel for every time you characterize criticism as “lying” about you. Grow up!

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Posting the links to the comments section where I prove in great detail how you’re a clueless liar under this thread as well. Again it should take a few hours as usual.
            In the meantime:
            “Ido, you invite ridicule because you’re ridiculous” – trying the deflection thing again I see, “no! you are!”. Typical. And pathetic.
            “I have never seen someone so silly and hysterical with the word liar” – so you block the lists of lies from your vision ? which I posted multiple times for you before ? how does that work ? I’m curious.
            “someone so cheaply and dishonestly” – coming from a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about, this is very amsuing. have you noticed I was right about Baladi Akka’s conspiracy thing ? allow me to quote you:
            “Baladi Akka 1948 was not talking about a “conspiracy””. How should I classify this one ? another lie or just clueless again ?

            “in response to criticism” – being factually incorrect and lying repeatedly is not “criticism”.
            “Did your parents teach you that little Ido was always right and that anyone who criticized him was a big bad meanie and a “liar”? ” – no, they taught me to provide evidence for my claims, which is exactly what I did when I proved how you’re a clueless liar who has absolutely no idea what he’s talking about in great deail.
            “Grow up” – how about you actually address your lies, ignorance and denial of reality which I prove again and again ? which you ignore again and again as if doing so will somehow make it all go away ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, as usual this site is taking hours to post a response so I posted the links detailing your lies, ignorance and mistakes in the Facebook comments section. Let’s see if you ignore it again.

            “Ido’s only response to my pointing out that he responds to all critiques by calling the person a liar”- sure, besides listing your lies in great detail. this is very meta of you ,lying about lying.
            I don’t mind repeating it, see the Facebook comments above.

            “Ido, you invite ridicule because you’re ridiculous” – trying the deflection thing again I see, “no! you are!”. Typical.
            “I have never seen someone so silly and hysterical with the word liar” – so you block the lists of lies from your vision ? which I posted multiple times for you before ? how does that work ? I’m curious.
            “someone so cheaply and dishonestly” – coming from a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about, this is very amsuing. have you noticed I was right about Baladi Akka’s conspiracy thing ? allow me to quote you:
            “Baladi Akka 1948 was not talking about a “conspiracy””. How should I classify this one ? another lie or just clueless again ?

            “in response to criticism” – being factually incorrect and lying repeatedly is not “criticism”.
            “Did your parents teach you that little Ido was always right and that anyone who criticized him was a big bad meanie and a “liar”? ” – no, they taught me to provide evidence for my claims, which is exactly what I did when I proved how you’re a clueless liar who has absolutely no idea what he’s talking about in great deail.
            “Grow up” – how about you actually address your lies, ignorance and denial of reality which I prove again and again ? which you ignore again and again as if doing so will somehow make it all go away ?

            Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          And btw the whole story about 2005 in Gaza leaves out the economic blockade in response to Hamas’ fair election and the US and Israeli-backed coup attempt via Mohammed Dahlan. Israel says it wants democracy but it really doesn’t. Now save us the bluster about Hamas and about “conspiracy thinking” and “why are you lying.” And for God’s sake spare us the “evidence…links…proof” rigamarole. (You probably won’t but that’s ok, we know you by now.) The whole episode is far more complicated than that Israel simply left and Hamas zombies started raining rockets. But Ido isn’t interested in complex truths, he’s here to dispense propaganda.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “in response to Hamas’ fair election” – oh yes, and then they fairly canceled the democracy in gaza, turning it into another Islamic theocracy. This reminds me, how can you ignore the fact that Hamas is a jihadist Islamic terrorist organization who openly and very, very clearly claim that their goal is the elimination of Israel ? that they call for the murder of Jews ? the videos of their leaders yelling in to your face were too subtle ?
            “and the US and Israeli-backed coup attempt via Mohammed Dahlan” – going back to some old lies I see. Well, at least you toned your lie down a notch, in the May 3 article you claimed Israel “staged a Latin American style military coup to overturn a democratic election” in Gaza. Blamed something Fatah, in their inner-Palestinian struggle with Hamas, did backed by the Bush administration.
            “Israel says it wants democracy but it really doesn’t” – of course. Because Ben says so.
            “Now save us the bluster about Hamas and about “conspiracy thinking” and “why are you lying.” – interesting interpretation of evidence and literally lists of you lying. Including a few new examples on this comments section. Do you want me to bring the lists up ? or do you want to save the embarrassment ?
            “And for God’s sake spare us the evidence…links…proof” – why ? providing evidence and facts proving how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about is very entertaining.
            “we know you by now” – hilarious.. coming from a proven clueless liar like you it’s great.
            “that Israel simply left and Hamas zombies started raining rockets” – of course it is complex. Like for example you ignore the religious justification of Hamas, an Islamic Jihadist terrorist organization, to wage “Jihad” on the Jews.
            “But Ido isn’t interested in complex truths, he’s here to dispense propaganda” – as usual, I always enjoy it when you finish with a lovely joke.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You really should get that peculiar perseverative aphasia and dyscontrol syndrome involving gratuitous repetition of all forms of the word “liar” looked at. Yes, we know you by now. We decline further substantive comment. We made our point and stand by it, and would also point to the well known “Geller Factor”: The longer one engages or tries to attempt honest dialogue, the murkier, the more evasive, the more verbose, and the more abusive and slanderous is the reply. And the more he likes it.
            This apparent law of nature has never once been observed to be violated. The evidence and the proof is here. With links!:
            https://972mag.com/on-eid-al-fitr-some-palestinians-get-their-first-visit-to-the-sea/136253/

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, I literally quoted you lying. I posted again the articles with the comments section where I list your lies and cluelessness in detail, again.
            “We made our point and stand by it” – so you reject reality and substitute it with your own. That’s great. Very mature.
            “The longer one engages or tries to attempt honest dialogue” – are you trying to give me a heart attack from laughing so hard ? you and “honest dialog” in the same sentence ? how many times have I proved in great detail how you’re a liar ? how you are biased to the point of being a caricature of a ‘Useful Idiot’ ?
            “the murkier, the more evasive, the more verbose” – interesting phrasing for post after post proving you wrong in great detail. Just linked to many examples in a post above. It will probably appear in half a day or so, lots of links.
            “The evidence and the proof is here. With links!” – this childish idiocy reminds me when you literally asked the readers to ignore all the posts I’ve made pointing out how you’re a clueless liar, remember ? that was priceless.
            Also hard not to notice how you didn’t even address my post but hey, your standards must be met, right ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “Just linked to many examples in a post above. It will probably appear in half a day or so, lots of links.”

            Shhhhhhhh! Be vewy, vewy quiet! He’s hunting wabbits!

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            The links with the comments sections showing in great detail how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about are posted right there, after your post. Including links with 2 lists detailing your many lies and mistakes. it needs an update from this comments section and a few recent ones but I think it’s more than enough.

            Are you going to pretend this doesn’t exist again ? go ahead. let’s see if it’ll make it all go away.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You’re ridiculous. See my comment above.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            I did and responded, also provided the links with the lists of your lies which you oh so hilariously deny exist.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Posted the evidence again in the Facebook comments section, including the detailed lists of your lies. Enjoy. I really need to update it with your more recent clueless nonsense and lies.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Here’s the ridiculous Elmer Fudd wabbit hunting chase you’re eagerly calling the hounds for in your own mind:

            Ido: very meta of you, lying about lying.
            Ben: No that’s very meta-meta of you, Ido, lying about lying about lying.
            Ido: No Ben that’s very meta-meta-meta of you, lying about lying about lying about lying.
            Ben: No that’s very met-meta-meta-meta of you, Ido, lying about lying about lying about lying about lying.
            Ido: No Ben….

            You’re the silliest, slanderous goose. A wabbit-chasing silly goose. And as likely as the goose to catch the rabbit. And all because you think that critiquing your argument as side-stepping is in your mind “lying.”
            Just ridiculous.
            You meet all sorts of people on line but I’ve never met anyone like you.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Um, the detailed links showing how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s taking about were posted in this comments section and in the Facebook comments above.
            Including 2 lists where I compiled your more hilarious lies and mistakes. I have no idea why you would think lying about lying will somehow make it all go away.

            So we have this again:
            Ben: *lying clueless nonsense*
            Ido: no it isn’t, why are you lying ? here’s the evidence for your ignorance and lies.
            Ben: I didn’t lie! you’re huting rabbits!
            Ido: here is the proof.
            Ben: no, no, my comment was a “critique!”
            Ido: factually wrong nonsense and lies are not a critique.
            Ben: I didn’t lie.
            Ido: yes you did, very clearly so. here’s the evidence.
            Ben: no I didn’t.
            Ido: why are you lying about lying ?
            Ben: you’re hunting rabbits!
            Ido: are you having some kind of epileptic seizure ? the evidence is right there, I’m looking at it right now.
            Ben: but X never said it!
            Ido: yes he has, here’s the evidence. Also here’s a video of him saying it on camera.
            Ben: I didn’t lie!
            Ido: yes you did, here’s the evidence.

            I find this very entertaining. This denial of reality of yours should be looked into by a professional.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Oh. we all know very well that you find this very entertaining, Ido Geller. Internet trolls are like that. I’m starting to think you dream about me.

            But anyone with discernment knows that this whole gambit of yours is dishonest to the core. You can call something “evidence” and “proof” (“with detailed links”!) as many times as you like, it remains unconvincing as evidence or proof, versus propaganda. At least to me. And I am very comfortable letting others make up their own minds.

            And in the end you’re still stuck with yourself, a silly, dishonest goose entertained by chasing me around. The perverseness of this is I guess entertaining if you’re a voyeur.

            Come to think of it, here’s another entertaining thing about you: You actually think anyone goes back and slogs through your “links” and the verbose, repetitious screeds, as if anyone thinks it worth their time to follow the ins and outs of this obsession of yours. You cannot possibly think that anyone else here does anything but quickly scan through the back and forth, reading maybe half a sentence of each post, and move on, if that. Or that they, including me, would actually go back and re-read it. Except you do think that. A striking narcissism, a failure to see yourself as you really are. (It dovetails with your smug narcissism about politics.) Have at it. Keep plowing away with all those “proofs” with links and everyone will keep yawning and finding something better to do. Or laugh.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Internet trolls are like that” – nope, I was very specific: pointing out how you’re a clueless liar is very amusing to me, see the many examples in the links I provided.
            “this whole gambit of yours is dishonest to the core” – um, the list of your more hilarious lies and mistakes are right there, also in the Facebook comments section. In great detail. Calling you dishonest would be an understatement, I would say you are more of an ignorant ‘Useful Idiot’ type.
            “You can call something “evidence” and “proof” (“with detailed links”!) as many times as you like” – This is hilarious, you dismiss the vast evidence showing how you are a clueless liar because they are “links” again ?
            What’s next ? asking “the people” to just ignore all of it and look away ? you did that once, I nearly fell off my chair laughing.
            “it remains unconvincing as evidence or proof, versus propaganda” – as I always do, I’ll ask again: by all means, point to any of the evidence you think is wrong and refute it. Go right ahead. Why is this so difficult for you ?
            How can evidence, for example of the people you’re claiming said something or did something, showing very plainly how they said something else and did exactly what I said they did is “unconvincing as evidence or proof” ? please explain.
            “At least to me” – ah! now it makes more sense. The delusional clueless liar chooses not to accept evidence contradicting his nonsense because he chooses to. This actually explains a lot.
            “And I am very comfortable letting others make up their own minds” – yes it was already established you’re delusional. Yes you seem very comfortable with me bringing the many links to articles with comments showing in great detail how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about. That’s why you are making such an effort to ignore this evidence exists and constantly lie about it.
            “And in the end you’re still stuck with yourself, a silly, dishonest goose entertained by chasing me around” – wrong again, calling me dishonest is especially hilarious with the lists of your lies compiled so neatly in the links I provided several times now, there they are in the Facebook comments section.
            I’m entertained by pointing out how you are a clueless liar and the textbook example of a ‘Useful Idiot’ who for example lies on behalf of genocidal jihadist terrorists like Hamas. I believe I mentioned that once or 56 times.
            “you’re a voyeur” – well, I do admit seeing your posts is similar to watching a car crash and I just can’t look away. Thank the Gods the only victim here is your dignity.
            “You actually think anyone goes back and slogs through your “links”” – so now you think the links don’t exist ? what’s with the quotation marks nonsense ? To be honest they don’t actually have to as I proved quite clearly here that you’re a clueless liar.
            They should if they want to see the extent in which you’re a clueless liar ‘Useful Idiot’ who has no idea what he’s talking about. It’s quite entertaining.
            “You cannot possibly think that anyone else here does anything but quickly scan through the back and forth” – oh I don’t care about them, I know you do. OK I admit it, so do I when I want a good laugh.
            “with your smug narcissism about politics” – pointing how you’re factually incorrect about basic topics is “smug narcissism” ? how you repeatedly ignore evidence proving you’re clueless ? this is great stuff. Not your best material but not bad.
            “Keep plowing away with all those “proofs”” – you think putting proof in quotation marks will make all the evidence I posted cancel itself out or something ? please explain this to me, I find this fascinating.
            “Or laugh” – I know I did, that’s good enough for me. And to anyone who wants to see in great detail how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Oops. Big-time relapse by Ido. Eight times in one post. It’s hard to stay clean and sober when you’re under stress. I understand.
            (Search “liar” on this page you get, as of now, 41 hits. Forty-one! LoL.)

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Search “liar” on this page you get, as of now, 41 hits. Forty-one! LoL” – oh yes, this will definitely make all the evidence that you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about disappear. Never thought you can be more pathetic but you always surprise me. Good job.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Forty-two!

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Did all the evidence showing in detail how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about disappeared ? no ? Never mind. Keep trying.
            I have faith in you!

            Reply to Comment
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