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This doesn't end well

There are zero prospects of finding a way out of this situation. Nobody is coming to end the occupation, and there will be no end to the violence until the violence of the occupation ends.

Israeli security forces at the scene of a shooting attack at the entrance to the Israeli settlement of Givat Asaf, in the West Bank, on December 13, 2018. Two soldiers were killed and several others wounded. Photo by (Hadas Parush/Flash90)

Israeli security forces at the scene of a shooting attack at the entrance to the Israeli settlement of Givat Asaf, in the West Bank, on December 13, 2018. Two soldiers were killed and several others wounded. Photo by (Hadas Parush/Flash90)

One of the most depressing things about Israel-Palestine is just how predictable and cyclical the violence can be. The almost-war in Gaza, the new wave of shooting, ramming, and stabbing attacks in the West Bank, the nightly Israeli army raids deep into Palestinian cities, the clashes that will soon become a regular feature of the coming months, the vigilante settler violence — it’s almost identical to the year before and the year before and the year before.

Go a little further back and there’s an actual war in Gaza, Israeli military operations in cities jokingly referred to as being under Palestinian control, more settler violence, the inevitable mounting casualties — some combatants but also children and random civilians on both sides.

The violence is inevitable. Three years ago, in a moment of violence that felt identical to this one, I wrote that it is precisely in times of violence that we most need to talk about peace. And yet then, and even more so now, there is no prospect of peace. Talking about peace feels like a delusion — one meant to distract from a reality in which so many people are working to advance the opposite of peace, whatever that might be.

“When people talk about addressing the violence at times like these they are generally referring only to Palestinian violence directed at Israelis, not the structural violence of Israel’s occupation and the deadly physical violence it visits on Palestinians,” I wrote. “Getting back to ‘normal’ is the goal of Israel and Israel alone.”

There is nothing okay about targeting civilians, and the shooting attack that left a pregnant woman in serious condition and killed her then-unborn baby, are nothing short of abhorrent. At no point in the history of the world has there been a single situation in which one population oppressively ruled over another that didn’t result in unpalatable violence.

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There is also the palatable violence — the violence of a foreign military occupation lasting for half a century, the violence that we treat as a policy issue instead of ongoing, asymmetric, state-sponsored violence. And there is no way to maintain the occupation and oppression of millions of people without well-organized violence.

That has been the norm here for as long as many of us can remember. Waves of violence. Periods of relative calm, in different forms depending on your ethnicity or religion or nationality or where you live, filled with palatable and unpalatable violence. Three years ago, I wrote that this is exactly what institutionalized segregation, military occupation, and ethnic segregation and disenfranchisement look like.

Like three years ago, but much more so today, there are zero prospects of finding a way out of this permanent cycle of violence. There is nobody coming to end the occupation, and there will be no end to the violence until the violence of the occupation ends.

Today, the Israeli government is even more unapologetic about its intention to maintain the occupation forever, in some form or another. “I say this everywhere and I say it publicly, I said it in the years since Bar-Ilan 150,000 times: Israel and Israel alone will have the security responsibility in the area west of the Jordan,” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said for the 150,001st time a couple of months ago.

So where do we go from here? There are only two things we can be sure of these days. The first is that, tragically, there will be more violence, from both sides. The second is that change is not going to come from an Israeli government which sees the status quo as an acceptable reality. And with the current state of the international community, Washington included, nobody is coming to end the occupation.

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    1. Bruce Gould

      Read “Cracks in the Wall: Beyond Apartheid in Palestine/Israel” by Ben White.
      Things will probably get worse before they get better, but the book gives a small measure of hope. From the Amazon review:

      After decades of occupation and creeping annexation, the situation on the ground in Palestine/Israel can only be described as a system of apartheid. Peace efforts have failed because of one, inconvenient truth: the Israeli maximum on offer does not meet the Palestinian minimum, or the standards of international law…But while the situation on the ground is bleak, Ben White argues that there are widening cracks in Israel’s traditional pillars of support. Opposition to Israeli policies and even critiques of Zionism are growing in Jewish communities, as well as amongst Western progressives. The election of Donald Trump has served as a catalyst for these processes…

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        “Peace efforts have failed because of one, inconvenient truth” -> the only reason peace is unattainable is the refusal of the Palestinian leaderships to accept the continual existence of Israel, the homeland of the Jewish people, and their refusal to abandon their old dream of Israel’s demise.
        The same violence and calls for Israel’s destruction by the Arabs who today call themselves Palestinians predate the occupation’s existence. The Palestinians could have had a country on several opportunities by now but they decided to pass on them. It was their choice, they simply preferred to continue the “Jihad” rather than accept the permanent existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East.
        “the Israeli maximum on offer does not meet the Palestinian minimum” -> the ‘Palestinian minimum’, which includes the refusal to accept Israel as the Jewish state and to abandon the ‘Right of Return’, in effect turning Israel into another Arab state. Now why on earth would Israel sign its own death warrant willingly ?
        Another issue which seems to be ignored is the fact that there is no one Palestinian leadership, and not even close to democratic. Abbas is celebrating his 14th year of his 4 year term. His ruling party delayed the elections indefinitely for fear of being replaced. Very democratic. The other half of the Palestinians are controlled by a Jihadist Islamic terrorist organization, dedicated to the elimination of Israel. Both factions can’t even make peace among themselves. They tried I believe more than 12 times.
        “widening cracks in Israel’s traditional pillars of support” -> which pales in comparison to the fact that never before in their history have the Palestinians been more isolated, more helpless and more forsaken than they have been in recent years. By the Arab/Islamic world and their own corrupt inept leaderships.

        Reply to Comment
        • Bruce Gould

          @Ido: I notice that you actually live in Israel but you never talk about the conversations you have with your Palestinian friends and what they say.

          But what’s the end game? What do you think Israelistine will look like a generation from now?

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            I noticed you never asked. I actually did mention this but not to you. What would you like to know ?
            There would be no “Israelistine” so your question is irrelevant. The end game would be no one state between the sea and the river despite the wishful thinking of those who dream of Israel’s demise. There would be 3 states unless the Palestinians decide to make peace among themselves. in Gaza, Israel and the West Bank. Possibly with the cooperation of Egypt and Jordan.

            Reply to Comment
    2. Ben

      I read this by Michael Omer-Man about unpalatable and palatable violence, the structural violence of the occupation, and the inevitable consequences and realize that I am reading the voice of reality. Sober, unbiased reality. The voice of the grown up in the room. Of integrity. Of moral acuity. And it cuts through all the BS and the boilerplate propaganda.

      One really should pay attention to the fact that Bibi and his government are singling out +972 Magazine for hostile attention. It is a stronger vote of confidence in +972 and its truthfulness and integrity and intelligence than anything I can think of.

      Related pieces by Noam Sheizaf:

      December 21, 2011
      The undeniable Palestinian right to resist occupation
      https://972mag.com/the-undeniable-palestinian-right-to-resist-our-occupation/30735/

      February 24, 2013
      Violence was never gone, so it cannot ‘return’
      https://972mag.com/violence-was-never-gone-so-it-cannot-return/66624/

      March 11, 2016
      Why do we only listen to violence?
      https://972mag.com/why-do-we-only-listen-to-violence/117773/

      Reply to Comment
    3. Bruce Gould

      This idea of recognizing Israel as a “Jewish state” keeps coming up, so it’s worth discussing its craziness once more: The U.S. does not officially recognize Israel as a “Jewish State”; there is no document sitting in some drawer of the State Department that proclaims that the U.S. recognizes Israel as a “Jewish State”, just as there is no document stating that the U.S. recognizes France as the state of French people.

      The reason there is no such document is that the idea of a “Jewish State” is meaningless under international law, it carries no agreed upon meaning – and Israel already controls immigration so the idea of recognizing Israel as a “Jewish State” is meaningless and redundant.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        “the idea of recognizing Israel as a “Jewish State” is meaningless and redundant” -> far from it, that’s the whole point: when the Palestinian leadership(s) accept reality, that Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, it’ll put an official end to their goal of Israel’s demise, of not recognizing Israel’s legitimacy. Of calling for Israel’s end.
        The idea of Israel being the legitimate homeland of the Jewish people is antithesis to Hamas and Fatah’s ideologies and goals. They are not hiding this fact. Saying that this demand is meaningless or redundant is astoundingly ignorant and suggests you have no idea about this.
        “there is no document stating that the U.S. recognizes France as the state of French people” -> not as astoundingly stupid as this comparison though. I wouldn’t know where to start. Is there something similar denouncing the legitimacy of France and claiming that France doesn’t belong to the French people ?

        Reply to Comment
        • Bruce Gould

          @Ido: Now I’m asking: what do your Palestinian friends say? If you’re claiming that the Palestinians have the goal of destroying Israel, certainly what they’ve said to you is relevant.

          The notion of “homeland of the Jewish people” has personal meaning to you; it has no meaning in the framework of international law that governs relations between nations. Furthermore, since 25% of Israeli citizens aren’t Jewish, agreeing that Israel is the “homeland of the Jewish people” would be an excuse to weaken their rights.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “you’re claiming that the Palestinians have the goal of destroying Israel” -> No I’m not. You’re twisting what I said. I was talking specifically about the Palestinian leaderships. Read my posts again.
            The Palestinian civilians are the biggest victims in this entire mess.
            “what do your Palestinian friends say?” -> Again: about what ? be specific.
            “The notion of “homeland of the Jewish people” has personal meaning to you” -> you again twist what I said and you’re making up stuff I never did. Read my post again. The idea of Israel being the legitimate homeland of the Jewish people is antithesis to Hamas and Fatah’s ideologies and goals.
            when the Palestinian leadership(s) accept reality, that Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, it’ll put an official end to their goal of Israel’s demise, of not recognizing Israel’s legitimacy. Of calling for Israel’s end.
            Oh sure, my family’s and personal survival has a personal meaning to me.
            “has no meaning in the framework of international law” -> Again: irrelevant to what I said. International law has no meaning to Hamas and Fatah’s ideologies and goals.
            “since 25% of Israeli… would be an excuse to weaken their rights” -> this has nothing to do with ‘weakening their rights’. This is a symbolic statement meant to put an end to the Palestinian’s goals and demand as I said. And Israel being the historic homeland of the Jewish people is a historic fact.

            Reply to Comment
        • Richard Lightbown

          “Is there something similar denouncing the legitimacy of France and claiming that France doesn’t belong to the French people ?”

          Certainly not, why should there be? Substitute “Israel” for “France” and “Israeli” for “French” and the answer is still no. The point you are missing, probably consciously, is that France is a secular country and a state for all its citizens, which is not comparable with either a Jewish state or with an apartheid state.

          There is no problem with recognizing Israel as a truly democratic state. The only problem at the moment with Israel’s legitimacy is that it is an apartheid state that doesn’t remotely meet the requirements of a true democracy because it does not recognize the human rights of all its citizens (let alone those of the indigenous people residing in the areas it occupies). As such it has no comparison with France, and it is repugnant that you should pretend that there should be.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Certainly not, why should there be?” -> so you have no clue about the ideologies, goals and actions of the Palestinian leadership in this regard ? Hamas and the PLO ? what a shocking surprise.
            “France is a secular country and a state for all its citizens, which is not comparable with either a Jewish state or with an apartheid state” -> this has of course absolutely nothing to do with what I said, I was referring to the Palestinian leadership refusal to accept the legitimate existence of Israel and their ideologies and goals regarding Israel’s demise of course.
            They are not exactly hiding this. The addition of the hyperbolic and wrong “Apartheid” is a nice bonus. Israel will never allow itself to commit suicide on a national scale and become an Arab state. Never going to happen.
            “Israel’s legitimacy is that it is an apartheid state” -> no it isn’t. There is separation but it’s not Apartheid despite people really, really wanting it to be. Not comparable.
            “does not recognize the human rights of all its citizens” -> and some more hyperbolic nonsense. If you want to talk about human rights, go take a look what is going on with Fatah in the West Bank at this very moment and what Hamas is doing in Gaza.
            “As such it has no comparison with France” -> you of course twist what I said and completely ignore my point regarding the Palestinian leadership.

            Reply to Comment
          • Richard Lightbown

            Ido: ““Certainly not, why should there be?” -> so you have no clue about the ideologies, goals and actions of the Palestinian leadership in this regard ?”
            Uhh? I was specifically writing about France and in response you post this chatter about Palestinian ideologies, etc.

            You write that my comment about France has absolutely nothing to do with what you said, and yet I have copied and pasted, without any alteration, directly from the end of the third comment you posted today. I have then answered the question you asked.

            You repeatedly write about the “legitimate” existence of the state of Israel (as though it was a mantra) but where and as what you don’t define. It can hardly be legitimate when it does not have clearly defined boundaries. Nor when it treats the United Nations with such contempt. For example here is the third paragraph of the UN Charter:
            “…to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising
            from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and
            to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,” That’s a long way from describing Israel’s behaviour in the occupied Palestinian territories.

            Then you deny that Israel practices apartheid, even though you admit “there is separation”. Exactly: here’s the Concise Oxford Dictionary “from Afrikaans, literally ‘separateness’, from Dutch apart ‘separate’ + -heid (equivalent of -hood).” The point is that people do NOT want it to be apartheid. It’s just that those like Desmond Tutu who have experienced decades of this evil regime, know it when they see it (yes, better than you do) and they don’t like to see it again. That’s why veterans of the anti-apartheid struggle, such as Denis Goldberg and Ronnie Kasrils are so outspoken of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians.

            Your whataboutery on the Palestinian leadership is irrelevant. Sure, it has plenty of faults that need correcting. But none of that excuses Israel’s widespread, daily abuses of the Palestinian people, which is what the article is about, and what you are trying to hide behind a smokescreen.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “specifically writing about France and in response you post” -> no you didn’t, what you said had nothing to do with my post.
            You ignored what I said about the Palestinian leaderships ideologies and goals regarding Israel.
            “I have then answered the question you asked” -> no you didn’t, you simply ignored my post.
            “You repeatedly write about the “legitimate” existence of the state of Israel” -> and you again fail to grasp how the Palestinian leaderships deny this legitimacy.
            “but where and as what you don’t define” -> oh by all means, I didn’t know you were that clueless. See the Facebook comments section for evidence. If you like more I’ll gladly provide it.
            Also take a look at the official symbol/emblems of the PLO/Hamas. They are not exactly subtle.
            “It can hardly be legitimate when it does not have clearly defined boundaries.” -> they are quite clear and this has nothing to do with the Palestinian leadership view of Israel itself, in its entirely, as illegitimate. “Palestine” is from the River to the Sea. See the evidence I provided.
            “Nor when it treats the United Nations with such contempt” -> if only they weren’t a farce when it comes to Israel. I’ll provide many examples in the Facebook comments section.
            “That’s a long way from describing Israel’s behaviour in the occupied..” -> oh I agree Israel’s actions in the West Bank can be improved and the occupation must end.
            “Then you deny that Israel practices apartheid,” -> because it doesn’t. Apartheid has a specific definition. South African racial segregation based policy. Yes, there is separation in the West Bank for obvious reasons which do not compare to South Africa’s Apartheid. I understand of course the use of this specific word since it has a historic and emotional connotation. In fact the discriminatory two-tiered segregation system maintained by the Palestinians throughout Areas A and B in the West Bank against their own people is more similar to Apartheid.

            “you admit “there is separation”” -> of course there is, for obvious reasons, but it’s not similar to Apartheid no matter how much you really want it to be.
            “from Afrikaans, literally ‘separateness’” -> I’ll just add the specific definition of what Apartheid actually means in the Facebook comments section. Read section II for the actual definitions of ‘Crimes of Apartheid’.
            “know it when they see it” -> and others who experienced it say it isn’t similar to Apartheid. See the Facebook comments section for details.
            “yes, better than you do” -> not better than the actual definition.
            “outspoken of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians” -> still not Apartheid no matter how much you really want it to be.
            “Your whataboutery on the Palestinian leadership is irrelevant.” -> right, my actual point which you ignored is irrelevant.
            “what the article is about” -> I wasn’t replying to the article, read my posts again if it wasn’t clear the first time.
            “you are trying to hide behind a smokescreen” -> why are you lying ? I did nothing of the sort, read my posts again.

            Reply to Comment
          • Richard Lightbown

            Another long, rambling, garbled, abusive comment in the comments section. I’m not going to wade through that.

            Regarding the Facebook links. The ICSPCA document has no Section II. Article II does NOT give a definition of apartheid (read it!) but it does give a list of examples of inhuman acts to which the term “the crime of apartheid” shall apply. Israel has happily committed pretty well all of these inhuman acts against Palestinians at one time or another. The Nation-State Law and the siege of Gaza are two classic examples.

            To back up your hostility of the UN you link to Boris Johnson, who is perhaps the ultimate example of farce and bias. He’s actually a nasty piece of work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAxA-9D4X3o , and a racist https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/jan/23/london.race who was described last week by Kenneth Clark, father of the House of Commons, as being unable to run a whelk stall. The comment wasn’t far off the mark either https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/21/hang-on-a-second-boris-johnson-flounders-on-interview-circuit

            Funny you don’t mention the Security Council where the USA routinely blocks all censure and criticism of Israel. Isn’t that bias against Palestinians? Because the bottom line here is that Israel is occupying Palestine in breach of UN Security Council resolutions, it is daily committing human rights abuses against Palestinians and it racially discriminates against non-Jews as a core function of its existence. There is nothing legitimate about any of that which is why you are trying to move the discussion onto irrelevant topics and away from justified, and yes, legitimate criticism of Israel’s criminal and reprehensible behaviour towards the Palestinians and their supporters.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “I’m not going to wade through that” -> of course not, why address the fact that you simply ignored my posts and what you said had nothing to do with what I posted ?

            “Article II does NOT give a definition of apartheid” -> liar, yes it does. Specifically the definition of ‘Crimes of Apartheid’ as I said. article II A 1-3, C, D, E, etc.
            Would you like me to copy/paste all of it ?

            “list of examples of inhuman acts” -> OK then: “practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practiced in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group.”. A.K.A “Apartheid”.
            Why are you lying when the text is right there ?

            “Israel has happily committed pretty well all of these inhuman acts against Palestinians at one time or another” -> so you ignore context and the actions of the Palestinians themselves knowingly or you simply have no clue ?
            So when the Palestinians committed the same acts they also practice Apartheid ? they must be by your own statement.

            “The Nation-State Law and the siege of Gaza are two classic examples” -> no it isn’t. Which section of the Nation-State Law does this ? the siege of Gaza happened because it’s Gaza season or because the Islamic Jihadist terrorist organization ruling it attacked Israel with thousands of rockets and missiles ? a terrorist organization with the openly stated goal of ending Israel ? You again ignore reason and context as if it has nothing to do with this.

            “hostility of the UN” -> what are you talking about ? what hostility ? look at the actions of the UN themselves, that goes beyond bias to the point of being a parody of themselves.
            “He’s actually a nasty piece of work” -> oh yes, that somehow invalidates the many examples I provided of the UN themselves and their own actions.
            What he said wasn’t the truth ? please explain. And what he said was echoes by others, are they nasty pieces of work too and that somehow cancels out the actions of the UN ?
            “blocks all censure and criticism of Israel” -> see the evidence I provided. When the criticism is a joke, basically condemning Israel for defending itself and ignoring the other side completely, see an example from last week about Hamas.
            “Israel is occupying Palestine” -> “Palestine” ? that’s a name of a geographic region which includes all of Israel itself. Israel is occupying the West Bank.
            “racially discriminates against non-Jews” -> didn’t know Jews were a race. Interesting. There is also ‘racism’ between Jews themselves. I never said Israel is perfect, I’m sure there is no racism in your country, right ?
            “core function of its existence” -> oh you mean refusing to allow itself to become another Arab hellhole ? that sort of thing ?
            “you are trying to move the discussion” -> nope, you are the one who ignored my posts, made up things I never said and and moved the discussion to different topics.
            “irrelevant topics” -> Again: you mean my actual point from my original post ?
            “legitimate criticism of Israel’s” -> Again: not what I said, not what I posted, read it again.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            And of course you ignored the evidence regarding my actual point, about the Palestinian leadership.

            Reply to Comment
          • Richard Lightbown

            Well I’ll start looking at these links but I don’t know if I’ve got the stamina to finish.

            1) Tawrawi isn’t calling for the “destruction” of anything. He doesn’t use the word; you or someone else has inserted it. He’s calling for a one-state solution adding:
            “This does not mean that I want to throw the Jews into the sea. No, I want to live together with them… We want the people who are in Palestine to live in Palestine in its historical borders.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/fatah-official-palestine-alongside-israel-is-just-a-phase/ The “people who live in Palestine” includes all the Jews (including the settlers) and Arabs currently residing there, plus presumably immigrants. The “destruction” is all your own paranoid invention.

            2) “I hereby offer a $1,000,000 Wells Fargo check to the first person who presents a validly voted written PNC resolution…”
            Twelve months on and the money hasn’t been claimed. Since there is no proof why are you still peddling this bullshit (“PLO official charter calls for the destruction of Israel”) as fact?

            3) It’s there in the text for anyone wanting to read it “The PLO, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, sent a letter of mutual recognition of the State of Israel, on Sept. 12, 1993.” I will reiterate: the SOLE LEGITIMATE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE…MUTUAL RECOGNITION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL…SEPT 12 1993. It couldn’t get more specific. Fatah and Hamas do NOT need to because the PLO has already done it on behalf of the Palestinian people who it represents.

            Jeez Ido, you are a complete waste of time and space. Just take your rabid delusions somewhere else, you’ve exhausted my patience.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            1. “a one-state solution” -> which is the end of Israel, turning it into another Arab state. Why on earth will Israel agree to sign its own death warrant ? Never, ever going to happen.
            “I want to live together with them” -> oh how kind of him to offer the Jews an opportunity to live as Dhimmis in their former country. Again: never, ever going to happen. Israel is not suicidal.
            “Palestine in its historical borders” -> “Palestine” is a name of a geographic region where many people lived including Jews throughout history. He makes it sound as if “Palestine” is a name of a country belonging to today’s Palestinians which is a historic fabrication, a favorite pro-Palestinian propaganda nonsense.
            “The “destruction” is all your own paranoid invention.” -> so you elegantly skip the Right of Return bit or you simply have no clue ? did he miss that part ? you think the Palestinians will ignore it ? are you that clueless ? How kind of him to allow Israel to end itself.
            2. “as fact?” -> yes, as fact. See the PLO charter. Read about the sections they promised to amends, about ending Israel, which they never did. All explained in detail in the links you just ignored.
            Maybe you can present this amended charter which they never amended. Please, go right ahead.

            3. “I will reiterate: the SOLE LEGITIMATE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE…MUTUAL RECOGNITION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL” -> Again: a promise they broke, they lied. A promise to amend the PLO charter which they never changed, do you understand ? the letters promised to amend the charter which calls for Israel’s end, which doesn’t recognize Israel’s legitimacy. They never changed it, is this so difficult to grasp ?

            “Fatah and Hamas do NOT need to because the PLO has already done it” -> no they didn’t, that is the point of the link, how can you say something this stupid when the link explains this in detail ? and Hamas ? really ? the Islamic Jihadist terrorist organization which sees Israel’s destruction as a primary goal ? you’re adorable.

            “Jeez Ido, you are a complete waste of time and space” -> as expected you are clueless and you simply skipped the majority of my links where the Palestinian top leadership, both Hamas and Fatah, yell what I’ve been saying in your face. In Person.

            “rabid delusions” -> hilarious.. after again I showed you have no idea what you’re talking about. Please address the links you ignored which further show how you’re a delusional fool. Although this post is evidence enough.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            @IDO: “the end of Israel… another Arab state… death warrant… Dhimmis… suicidal… Right of Return… Charters ”[but let’s not mention Likud Charters cuz Jews, you know, they are different, special rules, complex humans unlike the Palestinians, and all that].”

            Yawn. The usual JPost talkback level rhetoric. Spoken by someone for whom the last thing on Earth he would ever want to encourage is the arriving at a lasting irenic solution that god forbid involved Jews giving up Lords of the Land status inside of a safe, peaceful democratic state—for Ido an absolute nightmare. Whenever I hear a right winger (selectively) bring out the hoary old “charter” business as a reason the occupation must continue and a 2SS simply cannot be reached I know we are dealing with nothing more than a tenacious propagandist serving up canned hash way past its sell-by date.

            “’Palestine’… a historic fabrication” – For someone who says he is for a withdrawal of the occupation and thus the creation of a Palestinian state, Ido spends an awful lot of time sneering at and denigrating that state and its future citizens (and incessantly painting hysterical inevitable nightmare horror scenarios as the only possible outcome). Where’s the beef? We’ve been put by Ido on a fake-beef vegetarian diet now for many months, all the while he abusively asks us why we are so stupid that we don’t like his ‘hamburgers’.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Yawn. The usual JPost talkback level rhetoric” -> right, quoting some of my words and saying ‘no it isn’t! JPost!’ is such a cerebral and articulated refutation that I’m in awe. But actually addressing the facts I stated ? oh no. Can’t do that. You think Israel is actually ever going to entertain the idea of allowing itself to become an Arab state ? are you that crazy ?
            “lasting irenic solution” -> and of course the hilarity of presenting Israel’s demise as ‘a lasting irenic solution’ is so ridiculous that no wonder you can’t grasp it. If I wanted to live in an Arab country, such paradises of democracies, freedom, human rights, stability and prosperity, especially for a jew, I would move to Lebanon, Syria, Egypt or Jordan. Thank you but I’ll pass this generous offer.
            “giving up Lords of the Land status” -> interesting interpretation of a life as a persecuted minority living at the mercy of a vengeful Arab Muslim majority. That hasn’t worked out terribly well for any other people that have found themselves in such a situation.
            “a safe, peaceful democratic state” -> hilarious.. take a look at Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt. Paragons of safe, peaceful democracies. Thank you but I’ll pass.
            “hoary old “charter” business as a reason the occupation must continue” -> of course not what I said. Are you going to address what I actually said about the PLO’s charter and the letters promising to amend the charter calling for Israel’s end ?
            The post is right there above. The evidence is in the Facebook comments section. Please go right ahead.
            “a tenacious propagandist serving up canned hash” -> yes, talk some more nonsense when the post and evidence clearly show that I was right. You don’t agree ? prove me wrong. Go ahead.

            “Ido spends an awful lot of time sneering at and denigrating that state and its future citizens” -> liar. Not what I said. I said that historically a Palestinian country didn’t exist, despite lies of Palestinian propaganda claiming otherwise. That the Palestinian nationality is a recent creation.
            Both historic facts. You tried to lie about this several times, proved you were clueless each and every time proving this to you. Think I’m wrong ? go ahead. Back up your claims.
            “Where’s the beef?” -> where it has always been, in the posts and evidence you either ignored, were clueless about or lied about.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Nichts Neues. But do see my comments on your style, below.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Aaaand you again ignored my post. This is great. Your post below (which I addressed in detail) is not the post you just ignored where I detail your inability to grasp why Israel refuses to commit national suicide, your brilliant strategy to address my posts (saying “no, you didn’t! JPost!”) you thinking Israel allowing itself to become an Arab state is a “lasting irenic solution” among your other idiotic nonsense. Me explaining why it’s ridiculous, etc.
            You lying about what I said about the PLO charter, I never said anything about it being about ‘the occupation must continue’, your words. I explained again why Richard (and you) were wrong about the Palestinians’ letter in 1993, their promise to remove the sections calling for Israel’s demise and about refusing to accept Israel’s legitimacy which they never did.
            You ignored it again. Your inability to prove me wrong. You lying and saying I’m and I quote you “denigrating that state”, when I actually said that historically a Palestinian country didn’t exist, a historic fact, despite lies of Palestinian propaganda claiming otherwise. A historic fact you still refuse to accept because it contradicts your brainwashed delusional nonsense. Yes, say “Nichts Neues” repeatedly. This will somehow help you. Anytime now.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            ‘you thinking Israel allowing itself to become an Arab state is a “lasting irenic solution”’

            Of course I didn’t say that, the slanted way you render it, obviously. Should I be a big crybaby now and whine “why are you lying about me, that’s not what I said, you twist what I said, I never said that, liar. what you said had nothing to do with what I posted, you ignore my posts, I’m going to go cry, for the 5th time, no the 6th time….” LoL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Of course I didn’t say that” -> and I quote you: “he would ever want to encourage is the arriving at a lasting irenic solution that god forbid involved Jews giving up Lords of the Land status inside of a safe, peaceful democratic state”.
            You words. Again why on earth are you lying when your own post is right there ? In that case which solution did you refer to which involves the Jews giving up their own country ? so bringing in millions of Arabs with a potential to bring millions more thanks to the Right of Return will somehow won’t turn Israel into a de-facto Arab state ? never mind you ignored again the insane delusional nonsense of the ‘a safe, peaceful democratic state’ as I explained in my post. No wonder you see Arabs liking the idea of a one state solution, ending Israel without firing a single bullet. What’s not to like ? Again: never, ever going to happen. Israel is not going to allow itself to commit suicide on a national scale.
            “Should I be a big crybaby now and whine” -> um, should I even bother mentioning how you again ignored my post ? your nonsense response (“no, you didn’t! JPost!”) while refusing to address my previous post and to back up your claims ?
            “LoL” -> Again, such a cerebral and articulated refutation of my posts.You lied about what I said about the PLO charter, the post is right there as it was the first time you ignored it. I never said anything about ‘the occupation must continue’, your words. I explained again why Richard (and you) were wrong about the Palestinians’ letter in 1993, their promise to remove the sections calling for Israel’s demise and about refusing to accept Israel’s legitimacy which they never did, you ignored it again.
            You lying and saying I’m and I quote you “denigrating that state”, when what I actually said was how historically a Palestinian country didn’t exist, a historic fact, despite lies of Palestinian propaganda claiming otherwise. You ignored it again.
            Post “Nichts Neues” and “LoL” some more, maybe it’ll make all of this go away. I’m sure it will, anytime now.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Ido mischievously misquoting Ben: ‘you thinking Israel allowing itself to become an Arab state is a “lasting irenic solution”’

            IDO, when called to account, offer this astonishing reply: ‘“Of course I didn’t say that” -> and I quote you: “he would ever want to encourage is the arriving at a lasting irenic solution that god forbid involved Jews giving up Lords of the Land status inside of a safe, peaceful democratic state”.
            You words. Again why on earth are you lying when your own post is right there ?’

            Wow, Ido pulls out all the stops and in broad daylight, in a fit of frustration and disinhibition?, openly lies about me “lying,” and doesn’t even cover his tracks. Just amazing. We can now see what are Ido’s standards regarding “lying,” what are Ido’s criteria for charging that someone is “lying,” coupled with Ido’s standards for lying and twisting himself. In broad daylight! Just wow. Bookmark this post! Oh my!
            Ido, you’re slipping. Usually you obfuscate this kind of maneuver in tedious walls of incoherence but here you put it right out on full display in the front shop window so to speak. Wow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Ido mischievously misquoting Ben” -> Again: why are you lying when your own post is 7 posts above ? which I quoted in my previous post ? how does repeating what you said is misquoting you ?
            “openly lies about me “lying,”” -> um, your post is right there. Are you having some kind of mental breakdown ?
            “lying and twisting himself. In broad daylight!” -> so you’re trying to lie outrageously enough so I won’t notice ? just like you elegantly ignored my question ? I’ll ask again:
            In that case which solution did you refer to which involves the Jews giving up their own country ? so bringing in millions of Arabs with a potential to bring millions more thanks to the Right of Return will somehow won’t turn Israel into a de-facto Arab state ?
            And of course you ignored the part about ‘a safe, peaceful democratic state’ nonsense again but that’s a given. Like you ignored the part where I asked you to back up your claims (“no, you didn’t! JPost!”),
            how you lied about what I said about the PLO charter, how you were wrong about the Palestinians’ letter in 1993, their promise to remove the sections calling for Israel’s demise and about refusing to accept Israel’s legitimacy.
            How you lied saying I’m “denigrating that state” when what I actually said was how historically a Palestinian country didn’t exist, a historic fact, etc. The usual stuff.

            “Ido, you’re slipping” -> yes, lie to yourself some more. Ignore my posts again and have a temper tantrum. This will definitely help your “argument”.
            “you put it right out on full display” -> yes, lie some more when your post is right there above. This is great material, excellent future reference like you failing your own “Test” below.
            “Wow” -> Exactly.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Look, plain and simple, we exposed to the light of day your contemptible standards for calling someone a liar. This is incontestable. Welcome to the adult world, kid. Welcome to life outside the Israeli cocoon of brazenness and impunity. I guess, of course, you can be just totally unembarrassable, like the Israelis with their agent caught wriggling inside the Vice President’s bathroom air duct, and just shrug and say “Ok, next? Anything else?”

            https://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly-hushed-250278%3famp=1
            <>

            You might even take such brazenness as yours as something to be proud of, Ido.
            And that’s OK, you’ve just become a stellar teaching example. Thanks. For you, I’m afraid, the title of the article on this page applies: “This doesn’t end well.” LoL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “we exposed” -> Always amused by your use of the royal “we”. I really don’t get it. Your post is right there. Did you or did you not say the things I quoted you saying about the ‘One state solution’ ? turning Israel into a de-facto Arab state ?
            “plain and simple” -> this is what you said: “encourage is the arriving at a lasting irenic solution that god forbid involved Jews giving up Lords of the Land status inside of a safe, peaceful democratic state”.
            Yes or no ? was it your evil twin ? how on earth can I take a clown like you seriously when you lie about your own post which I just quoted again ?
            Did you or did you not claim turning Israel into an Arab state, A.K.A the one state solution, will “encourage the arriving at a lasting irenic solution” ? did you or did you not refer to it as “giving up Lords of the Land status” ?
            and I ask you again since you never answered (4th time): In that case which solution did you refer to which involves the Jews giving up their own country ?
            Again: so bringing in millions of Arabs with a potential to bring millions more thanks to the Right of Return will somehow won’t turn Israel into a de-facto Arab state ?
            And of course you once again ignored the part about ‘a safe, peaceful democratic state’ nonsense. It’s almost as if you have no clue about reality and the Middle-East as I explained in detail 7 posts above.
            And once again, as usual, you ignored the part where I asked you to back up your claims which you again refuse to do, how you lied about what I said about the PLO charter, how you were wrong about the Palestinians’ letter in 1993, their promise to remove the sections calling for Israel’s demise and about refusing to accept Israel’s legitimacy.
            How you lied saying I’m “denigrating that state” when what I actually said was how historically a Palestinian country didn’t exist, a historic fact. Why is that ? why is confronting your clueless nonsense and lies is so difficult for you that you again ignored it ?
            “Welcome to the adult world, kid” -> this is amazing, it’s like you think that if you ignore the posts long enough and your own words it’ll somehow disappear. Amazing. Like a child.
            “you can be just totally unembarrassable” -> yes, projecting your own situation on me will definitely do the trick.
            “like the Israelis with their agent” -> and of course you change the subject, saying something which has nothing to do with my posts showing in detail how you’re a clueless liar who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
            Are you clueless enough that you think the US doesn’t spy on Israel as well ?
            “you’ve just become a stellar teaching example” -> your lying and evading on this page must be some kind of record. Especially the part where you failed you own idiotic “Test” below. Which you ignored for how many times now ? Congratulations.
            “LoL” -> oh yes, saying “LoL” and “Nichts Neues” will definitely somehow revert your lying clueless nonsense, changing the subject and evading my posts. Anytime now.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You know who you remind me of? You remind me of that comic prevaricator, Rudy Giuliani. LoL.
            https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/12/19/18148110/trump-tower-moscow-letter-of-intent-signature

            You’re startlingly, flabbergastingly, dumbfoundingly dishonest Ido. The mind boggles. The heart boggles. The stomach boggles. The soul boggles. Right there in broad daylight. Just amazing the brazenness. The shamelessness.
            But why not? You’re Israeli, right? ==> ==> ==>
            ‘…But no matter how stern the FBI’s lecture – usually delivered personally to the embassy’s senior intelligence representative – the Israelis were unmoved, another former top intelligence official said. “You can’t embarrass an Israeli,” he said. “It’s just impossible to embarrass them. You catch them red-handed, and they shrug and say, ‘Okay now, anything else?’”…’

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            You know who you remind me of ? of someone who again ignored my posts and evidence, showing in detail how you’re a clueless liar who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. How you once again elegantly skipped the part where you failed your own idiotic “Test”. How you repeatedly change the subject to evade my posts. The usual.
            Yes, change it now to something completely unrelated again. Saying “LOL” again will definitely make all the posts you ignored disappear.
            “You’re startlingly, flabbergastingly, dumbfoundingly dishonest” -> hilarious.. says the clueless liar who repeatedly evades my posts and changes the subject, like you just did this moment.
            “Right there in broad daylight” -> what are you talking about ? how on earth do you think that lying like this can actually improve your well established clueless liar status ? I don’t get it. You can’t be this stupid.
            Why aren’t you answering my questions in the previous post ? did you or did you not say what I quoted you saying ?
            “But why not? You’re Israeli, right?” -> why address my posts and evidence showing very, very clearly how you’re a clueless liar who doesn’t have a clue ? how you repeatedly change the subject ? you you elegantly skip over the post where I show how you failed your own idiotic “Test” ? how you are factually incorrect ? how you refuse to answer questions ? you’re Ben, right ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            So I guess we have to spell out how Ido twists things and sneakily misrepresents things, because he continues to sneakily pretend he does not sneakily misrepresent. And we shall have to make it ultra-simple.

            Ido sneaks in the assumption that “Jews giving up Lords of the Land status inside of a safe, peaceful democratic state” (what I actually said) and “Israel allowing itself to become an Arab state” (what Ido sneakily misrepresents me as saying) are equivalent statements, are synonymous statements.

            When, in response to this sneaky misrepresentation by Ido, I said that Ido is “mischievously misquoting” me, Ido called me a liar.

            This proves that Ido has contemptible standards for calling a person a liar.

            (Something long evident to anyone simply paying attention but now shown so plainly and simply here that Ido will have to go beyond amateur sneakiness to a black belt level of brazen denial, or some other nonsense that you wouldn’t believe if you didn’t see it with your own eyes.)

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “pretend he does not sneakily misrepresent” -> why on earth are you still lying like this when your own post is right there ? when I quoted you 3+ time now ? when I explained very, very clearly how you lied again ?
            what makes you think “yes.. I’ll lie about this again, never mind that it’s beyond ridiculous” ? I’m honestly curious. Is it beyond your control ? some kind of compulsive behavior ?
            “are equivalent statements” -> because they are. The one state solution is by its very definition turning Israel into a de-facto Arab state. I explained this here about 5 times. In other pages I believe about 20 times or so to you.
            How is stating a fact “sneaky misrepresentation” ? I ask again for a 7th time, you still refuse to answer for some reason: in that case which solution did you refer to which involves the Jews giving up their own country ?
            “what I actually said” -> yes, I know. I quoted you 4 times now. Then answer the question. Did you or did you not refer to the one state solution ? never mind the ridiculous idiotic nonsense of “a safe, peaceful democratic state” as if you live under a rock and have no clue what is going on all around Israel in Arab/Islamic countries. Let’s just say that when you are familiar with reality about them, and Gaza and the West Bank, “safe, peaceful and democratic” are not exactly what is comes to mind. It’s exactly the opposite actually.
            The one state solution is by definition turning Israel into an Arab state. This was what you said, among other ridiculous unrealistic nonsense.
            “sneaky misrepresentation by Ido” -> why are you lying about this again ? what ‘sneaky misrepresentation’ ? did you or did you not say this ? did you or did you not say what I quoted you saying ? how is it “misquoting” ?
            “Ido called me a liar” -> because you are, as evident by the posts above that you to this moment refuse to touch. You pretend they don’t exist.
            “This proves that Ido has contemptible standards for calling a person a liar” -> this proves that you live in a fantasy land of make-believe, that you are so out of touch with reality that you fail to see how turning Israel into an Arab state as a conflict solution is beyond ridiculous.
            oh I bet the Palestinians leadership would love this, ending Israel without firing a single bullet, making the Jews live as persecuted minority in their own former country when they, as you said “give up Lords of the Land status”.
            Never, ever going to happen. Israel is not suicidal.
            “so plainly and simply here” -> how about addressing the posts you ignored again ? about the 1993 letter of recognition ? the PLO charter ? you failing your own “test” ? how you lied about what I said about the Palestinian nation ? etc.
            “brazen denial, or some other nonsense that you wouldn’t believe if you didn’t see it with your own eyes” -> that’s a very accurate description of you and your clueless lying nonsense. I see you’re projecting again. I still can’t believe you think lying like this, about what you yourself said, is beneficial to your “argument”.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Really the only word for you is incorrigible. Honestly you are the slipperiest, slitheriest person online in memory. Just unbelievable. Wow.

            Remember when you were running around here accusing +972 Magazine editors of repeatedly censoring you? Before you understood the mechanics of posting on this site? Which I had to educate you about? We do. That episode also reminds me of Rudy:

            ‘The “fool” has been a dramatic fixture at least since Shakespeare scribbled, and Giuliani is the fool for our time. Occasionally he speaks accidental truths, but mostly he plays the clown. He’s America’s crazy uncle at a time when, according to a Wired tally, seven sets of prosecutors and investigators are pursuing at least 17 court cases involving Trump.
            “Twitter allowed someone to invade my text with a disgusting anti-President message,” an alarmed Giuliani tweeted a few weeks ago, calling Twitter “card-carrying anti-Trumpers.” In fact, Giuliani had accidentally sabotaged his own tweet with a punctuation error — “G-20.In” — that automatically created a hyperlink to an Indian Web address. A clever observer quickly bought the domain and created a page that said “Donald Trump is a traitor.” Giuliani’s errant accusation was all the funnier because he’s also Trump’s “cybersecurity adviser.”
            Right after the hyperlink high jinks, Giuliani tweeted a string of gibberish: “Kimim ° has f.” A previous Giuliani tweet saying only the word “You” prompted a fill-in-the-blank festival.
            …On Sunday, Giuliani was back to truth-isn’t-truth, telling ABC’s George Stephanopoulos that “unless you’re God . . . you will never know what the truth is” from Cohen. …We need Giuliani’s entertainment. But when he dies, there should be a memorable scene when he goes before the One Who Knows Truth.
            “I didn’t lie,” Giuliani will say, “but even if I did, it wasn’t a crime to be Dopey.”’

            One wants to ask, Do you work for Erdan’s disinformation team or Shaked’s Branch? Or are you just a patriotic volunteer? Lord have mercy. Really they ought to examine the poor return on investment they are getting from these stupid shit dark ops if that’s what you are doing and not just freelancing fatuous folderol. Erdan has always struck me as not a very bright guy. You remind me of him too. Giuliani, Erdan and Geller, what a team.(*chuckle*)

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Thanks for the additional faux-incomprehensions, sneaky quote truncations and non sequiturs. You made the eerie emptiness of your practices very clear here. I appreciate that.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Thank you again for showing how you’re a liar who keeps ignoring post after post because dealing with reality seems to be very uncomfortable for you. How you lied about what you yourself said.
            “sneaky quote truncations and non sequiturs” -> why on earth are you still clinging to this idiotic lie ? especially when your post is right there above ? especially when I explained this how many times now ? when I quoted you again and again ? how is it “truncated” ? “non sequitur” ? did you or did you not say the things I quoted you saying ? did you or did you not refer to the one state solution ? turning Israel into an Arab state. You of course again ignored the rest about your “a safe, peaceful democratic state” nonsense. It’s almost as if you have no clue about reality and the Middle-East as I explained in detail.
            “You made the eerie emptiness” -> what are you talking about ? how about actually addressing my posts, showing in detail hoe you’re a clueless liar who doesn’t know what you’re talking about ?
            For example: how you lied about what I said about the PLO charter, how you were wrong about the Palestinians’ letter in 1993, their promise to remove the sections calling for Israel’s demise and about refusing to accept Israel’s legitimacy.
            How you lied saying I’m “denigrating that state” when what I actually said was how historically a Palestinian country didn’t exist, a historic fact. How you failed your own idiotic “test” which was in itself a pathetic trick to evade my posts, etc.
            “I appreciate that” -> I appreciate you providing me so much material for future posts. Great stuff. Thanks.

            Reply to Comment
          • BOAZ

            As a French citizen, I can assure you that what it means for me is that every Frenchman is a French-speaker, accepts the dominance of Corneille,Racine,Molière & Descartes in national culture, and as the late French Jewish historian & resistant Richard Bloch put it, recognizes himself/herself in the celebration of La Fête de la Fédération on July, 14, 1790 as in the coronation of Clovis 1000 years before.

            And last but not the least, who recognizes the secular character of the state.

            France is indeed a state for all its citizens, but not under no obligation for said citizens. Loyalty to France is one.

            Reply to Comment
    4. Bruce Gould

      @Ido: Excuse me: jesus christ. What do your Palestinian friends say about the situation in general? You must talk politics with them, what do they say about what they want, how they’re treated, the possibility of two states, one state, three states, ANYTHING?

      If there’s going to be a Palestinian state it will presumably sign various diplomatic treaties with Israel, join the U.N. as a full state, etc, etc. They aren’t going to sign some document agreeing that Israel is a “Jewish state” because it means nothing in the framework of international law.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        I do talk about politics with Arabs, Muslims and Christians. Visited Jerusalem recently and talked to an East Jerusalem store owner. He didn’t give a damn about politics, he cursed Abbas and said things are bad for business and he and his family have been friends with Jews all their lives.
        Another store owner, with posters of Arafat in his store, said Jews have no place in “Palestine” and they should all leave but if they want to stay, the Arabs will treat them fairly. He seems displeased when I laughed.
        Opinions are varied, depends when, where and who you are talking to. The most surprising thing I’ve seen is how some East Jerusalem Arabs were not that fond of the idea of becoming part of “Palestine”, just like Arabs from places like Um-El-Fahem (within the green line). I doubt they say so openly on Arab media.
        “They aren’t going to sign some document agreeing that Israel is a “Jewish state”” -> Again you simply ignore my post, what I said. I repeat:
        It’s a symbolic demand meant to put an official end to the Palestinian leaderships goal of Israel’s demise, of not recognizing Israel’s legitimacy. Of calling for Israel’s end. The idea of Israel being the legitimate homeland of the Jewish people is antithesis to Hamas and Fatah’s ideologies and goals. They are not hiding this fact. Look at the evidence I posted in the Facebook comments section.

        “it means nothing in the framework of international law” -> Again: irrelevant as I said 4 times now. It means everything to the goals and ideologies of the Palestinians leadership. They don’t seem to give a damn about frameworks of international laws. See the evidence I posted.

        “If there’s going to be a Palestinian state” -> here’s a question for you: what kind of state do you think it’ll be ? a modern human rights respecting democracy, with freedom of speech, stability and no violence or terrorism ? take a good look at the Arab countries all around Israel, take a look at Gaza and the PLO.
        It’s either an Islamic terrorist infested theocracy or a more secular oppressive kleptocracy/dictatorship. Either on the brink of a failed state or an actual one.

        Reply to Comment
        • Bruce Gould

          @Ido: I understand perfectly well your desire to have the Palestinians symbolically declare Israel a “Jewish State”, but if it’s some sort of legal document they have to sign they can’t do it because it can be interpreted in a way that can be used against them; it has no meaning except in your head. Maybe Israel should recognize that the Palestinians are also indigenous to the area?

          You have a problem: the settlements are expanding, Netanyahu, Bennett and others have declared they have no intention of allowing a Palestinian state under any circumstances, the human rights record of Israel is miserable, and at some point the apartheid like nature of the situation will become incontrovertibly clear to everyone.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “it’s some sort of legal document they have to sign” -> what legal document ? simply declare that they accept that Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. They can add it to the peace agreement if you insist.
            Again, 5th time: this is simply to negate the openly declared ideologies and goals of both Hamas and PLO, how they refuse to accept the legitimate existence of Israel, the homeland of the Jewish people, how they see all of Israel, from the River to the Sea, as theirs. You know, what you have been ignoring so far. Do you understand how this is not exactly acceptable ?
            “they can’t do it” -> of course they can. The fact that it negates their own charters and ideologies is the problem.
            “it can be interpreted in a way that can be used against them” -> total nonsense. Agreeing that Israel is not theirs and that it has a legitimate right to exist can be used against them ? well if you agree with the goals and ideologies of Hamas and Fatah regarding Israel then sure. It’s a problem for them.
            “it has no meaning except in your head” -> Again: total nonsense. Read the links I posted in the Facebook comments section.
            “Maybe Israel should recognize that the Palestinians are also indigenous to the area” -> this is nothing about “indigenous to the area”, you are again twisting what I said, read it again. This is about the Palestinian leadership refusing to accept the legitimate existence of Israel, how they still to this moment see all of Israel as theirs. How hard is this to understand ?
            “You have a problem” -> right, I have a problem. Do you want me to spell it out for you for a 6th time ?
            “Netanyahu, Bennett and others have declared they have no intention of allowing a Palestinian state” -> Bennet is not the King of Israel, neither is Netanyahu’s party if you follow recent polls. Elections should be around May if they dissolve the government next month which is very likely.
            “he human rights record of Israel is miserable” -> oh I’m sure there is a lot to improve.
            “and at some point..” -> let’s hope the Palestinians leadership comes to the realization that their future is more important than ending Israel. Doubt Hamas will agree though.

            Reply to Comment
    5. Ben

      We can see Ido is up to his usual tricks.

      Richard Lightbown and Bruce Gould have met the impenetrable wall of propaganda, stock phrases, weasel maneuvers, and personal abuse. (As Lightbown correctly observes, it is something one has to wade through, as in a swamp, or a moat, but I think of it as a wall, constructed of prefab pieces. It is in any event not an engagement. And it is abusive.)

      For Ido, everybody is an idiot, has no clue, is clueless, has no idea what they are talking about, ignore him, are lying, blah blah blah. For Ido, no one ever simply misunderstands him or differs with him, they are “lying about” him. The lack of the most rudimentary manners is striking. Ido wants to know “Why are you lying?” Ido tells you “I didn’t know you have no clue.” How obnoxious is that? He of the “has no clue” stock epithet has utterly no clue how obnoxious that is.

      And everybody is treated to the same weaselish escape maneuver: “that‘s not what I said…you twist what I said…I never said that…liar… what you said had nothing to do with what I posted, blah blah blah.” Search “nothing to do with” and you will see Ido uses this stock escape phrase seven times already on this page. And last but not least, this well-worn maneuver: “See the Facebook comments section for evidence.”

      And the same mindless whataboutery: “I’m sure there is no racism in your country, right?”

      “You ignore my posts.” Ido habitually accuses people of ignoring him when they simply don’t agree with him—as if to not ignore Ido is ipso facto to agree with Ido.

      All of this mess is tactically rendered more impenetrable, rendered into one congealed mass, a wall, by a miserable lack of punctuation or even the use of the basic device of the paragraph. It is, one concludes, a device to hide the assaultiveness, the nastiness and the lack of substance.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        “Richard and Bruce have met the impenetrable wall of propaganda” -> interesting interpretation to me showing in great detail they are both delusional fools who don’t know what they’re talking about.
        “Lightbown correctly observes” -> right, why address the posts where I show he is clueless when he can just ignore them ? or the evidence ? your modus operandi.
        “For Ido, everybody is an idiot” -> no, only fools who talk nonsense like you which I proved so many times that it’s beyond ridiculous. You’re a classic ‘Useful Idiot’.
        “has no clue, is clueless, has no idea what they are talking about” -> and of course you ignore the part where I show this in detail because that part seems to be very uncomfortable for you.
        “ignore him” -> really ? you’re going there ? the guy who repeatedly ignores my posts and evidence using some of the most hilarious excuses I have ever seen ? now the question is are you going to lie again and claim that never happened.
        “they are “lying about” him” -> oh no, sometimes you are just clueless and have no idea what you’re talking about as I show in great detail backed by evidence you repeatedly ignore. In other cases you lie, and again I show this in detail backed by your own quotes, would you like some examples ? there are so many to choose from.
        “How obnoxious is that?” -> not as much as a clueless ‘Useful Idiot’ talking about things he doesn’t have a clue about.
        “the same weaselish escape maneuver” -> right, when pointing when someone ignores my posts and changes the subject to avoid addressing the fact that he was wrong is ‘a weaselish escape maneuver’. Not the guy who ignores my post and evidence, right ?
        “that‘s not what I said..you twist what I said..I never said that..liar” -> Every single time I say that I explain why that is. In detail. Please by all means feel free to address those posts in this very page.
        “stock escape phrase” -> thanks for the laugh. Yes, ‘escape phrase’. I’m the one “escaping” by showing how someone ignored my posts and evidence, not the guy who ignored my posts and evidence.
        “his well-worn maneuver: “See the Facebook comments section for evidence.” ” -> right, providing evidence for my claims, backing up what I have been saying. In this case by the Palestinian leadership themselves, is ‘a well worn maneuver’. Are you trying to choke me from laughing so hard ? and when I ask you to back up your claims you ignore that post. Silence. This is hilarious.
        “And the same mindless whataboutery” -> the same ? really ? show me where I said it before. This should be good.
        “they simply don’t agree with him” -> nope, not agreeing with me and ignoring my posts are two very different things. You’re like a child making pathetic excuses not to address my posts. If you think I’m wrong, prove it. Show it. Back up your claims. This is what us adults do.
        “a device to hide..lack of substance” ->’lack of substance’ ? hilarious.. yes the multitudes of posts showing how you’re a clueless liar which you ignore and the huge amount of evidence you ignore is ‘lack of substance’. Please, never change. This is comedy gold.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          Yes, well, I didn’t expect you would accept responsibility and stop blame-externalizing. Instead we have another impenetrable wall of the same old prefab bricks.

          Richard Lightbown on December 15 had the patience to look at your “links in the Facebook section” which you always offer as “evidence” and “proof” and made quick work of the bullshit you are peddling. To which you responded with another impenetrable wall of abuse.

          In passing, we shall point to another standard prefab brick of yours in the congealed wall (there are so many one is bound to miss a few the first time around): “again, the 5th time… Do you want me to spell it out for you for a 6th time?…”

          After being unpersuasive or misleading or off the point or, as Richard says, peddling bullshit, paranoid inventions and rabid delusions, 50 times, one is no more persuasive or honest or on point or less paranoid the 51st time, but this gimmick of feigned repetition allows one to pose as if everyone else were “idiots, liars, clueless, with no idea what they are talking about,” etc, who need special help via repetition. It never occurring to the repeater that there might be a defective product being repeated. The irony is that this pupil, Ido, who refuses to take a simple and obviously fair test I have offered him, poses as a teacher dealing with dunces. It’s a new level of Israeli chutzpah. Multiplicative: Ido x Israeli cultural factors.

          As always, Ido wants us to go chase after some propaganda-spieling Facebook link somewhere and conclude he “proved” something (see Richard Lightbown, December 15 above for how that turns out when you do chase down those links) because if Ido had to pass a test of simply stating his allegations directly and succinctly in a simple argued few sentences in the light of day he would flunk that test. In point of fact, he has already has flunked it many times. That is, at least when I was in elementary school, if you refused to take a test the teacher would flunk you.

          When all else fails, Ido pulls out the last trick: feigned hilarity.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “I didn’t expect you would accept responsibility and stop blame-externalizing” -> what are you talking about ? again you ignored my post, again you try to project it at me, your second favorite MO after ignoring posts and evidence.
            How about addressing your usual nonsense ? I detailed it in the post you just ignored. You mentioned accepting responsibility ?
            “another impenetrable wall of the same old” -> what a bizarre coincidence! you again said the same idiotic nonsense and avoided actually addressing what I was saying. And you are surprised that I point it out in detail ?
            “Richard Lightbown on December 15 had the patience” -> and I refuted his post in detail. By all means, please address it in his place.
            “look at your “links in the Facebook section”” -> nope, besides the post I refuted he ignored the majority of links of the Palestinian leadership, in the flesh, saying exactly what I claim they say. How they don’t accept the legitimacy of Israel, how they see all of Israel as theirs, how they consider Israel’s end as a goal, etc.
            “you always offer as “evidence” and “proof”” -> because that’s exactly what it is. Did you just lie and claimed it isn’t ? are you that stupid ? are those not the leaders of the Palestinian 2 major factions ? are those actors pretending to be them ? did they say something different than what they have been saying and doing for decades ?
            I’m always curious, how do you rationalize this to yourself when you face this kind of undeniable evidence. You tell yourself they’re joking ? they don’t actually mean it ? the video cuts out the last scene where they yell ‘Not!’ to the camera ? the PLO charter was actually amended ? the Hamas charter is a fake ?
            I’m honestly curious. This level of self denial always intrigued me.
            “his gimmick of feigned repetition” -> what a strange coincidence! for the exact same times someone failed to grasp a simple fact.
            “unpersuasive or misleading or off the point” -> and as I replied, that was exactly what he was doing, read my posts again. It’s right there. You are again ignoring my posts.
            “peddling bullshit, paranoid inventions and rabid delusions” -> keep lying to yourself. Let’s see if the facts I stated somehow change. Nope. Well, you gave it your best.
            “one is no more persuasive or honest or on point” -> then prove it. Address it. Back up your claims. Why can’t you do this ? why is this so difficult for you ?

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “that there might be a defective product being repeated” -> right, why bother with Occam’s Razor if you can make up pathetic excuses instead of the obvious reason ?
            “who refuses to take a simple and obviously fair test I have offered” -> Again with this hilarious ‘The Test’ bullshit. Demanding that I re-post the same posts you ignored again but this time formatted to your specific demands.
            When I actually did it, you ignored it again, see the examples in this thread:
            https://972mag.com/humanitarian-aid-palestinians-time-low/138332/

            For example: from the above linked page, This is what you said, on April 30, 2018, about the Hamas price list for Gaza protesters and I quote you: ““the price list”, What a low level propaganda sheet the JPost is. And allied disinformation troll we have here”.
            Your words. I quoted you back then as well when I refuted your clueless nonsense. You called an actual fact “low level propaganda” among other nonsense. I literally provided the actual Hamas payments list, proving you wrong. The list provided by the Palestinians themselves.

            More to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 3): “that this pupil, Ido” -> hilarious.. yes. This will definitely somehow negate the fact that I proved you’re a clueless liar who doesn’t know what he’s talking about over dozens of pages on this site.
            “It’s a new level of Israeli chutzpah” -> you’re adorable.
            “Ido wants us to go chase after some propaganda-spieling Facebook link” -> I love your interpretation to evidence you refuse to touch. It’s wrong ? great. Prove it. Address it. Back up your claims. Why can’t you do this ?
            “conclude he “proved” something” -> why are you lying when the posts are right there ? if I didn’t, prove it. Show it. Why can’t you ?
            “see Richard Lightbown, December 15 above” -> oh I did. When I refuted his post. A fact you again ignore.
            “how that turns out when you do chase down those links” -> not only did he ignore the majority of links, I pointed out in detail how he was wrong about the ones he did address. In detail. You ignore it. Again.
            “stating his allegations directly” -> but I did. So many times that it’s beyond ridiculous. I have no idea why you’re lying like this.
            “a simple argued few sentences” -> you’re the one who provides me with so much material of clueless lying nonsense. Blame yourself.
            “he would flunk that test” -> yes, lie to yourself some more. This will certainly help you.
            “he has already has flunked it many times” -> oh right, I never proved in detail you’re a clueless liar who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. See the link in the previous post (which will probably take 2 days to show with a link) Why on earth are you lying like this ? how can you think this will help you in any way ?

            “if you refused to take a test” -> but I didn’t. I humored you and re-posted my post quoting you with the details you ask. You ignored it and you talk about “flunking tests” ?
            “When all else fails, Ido pulls out the last trick: feigned hilarity” -> right, all else failed. Why are you lying to yourself like this ? and trust me, you’re more entertaining than my niece when I catch her eating cake and she claims she didn’t with the cake smeared all over her face.
            Same thing with you when you repeatedly lie like this and talk nonsense repeatedly like you just did.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Three more stupefyingly repetitive walls. The eyes glaze over. Let’s not waste everyone’s time here with more of this rambling, clotted, abusive brick-laying. The bricks are hollow.

            Suffice it to say that someone who reflexively rejects any one-state solution seeking whatsoever as automatically “the destruction of Israel” and as automatically intended as such–when a de facto Israel-engineered one state already exists but at the expense of brutally imprisoning millions of indigenous people in an extraordinarily sick and devious affair*–but at the same time puts the screws to the Palestinians via a deliberately impossible two state solution, is wasting everyone’s time.

            * ‘Israelis don’t want to hear what I have to say’
            https://972mag.com/israelis-dont-want-hear-about-occupation/139193/

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Three more stupefyingly repetitive walls” -> aaaand you again ignored posts detailing your clueless nonsense, detailing your refusal to address my posts and evidence, you ignoring my posts showing how you had no idea what you were talking about, how you lied, how you failed your own “Test”, how you refuse
            to back up your claims and prove me wrong, etc. As usual you’re a pathetic joke.
            “Let’s not waste everyone’s time here” -> right, why address the posts proving you wrong and showing how a big joke you are, especially by failing your own “Test” bullshit, when you can just ignore it ? brilliant strategy. I’m still amazed by the fact that you’re not realizing how when you are doing this you prove that I’m right. When you refuse to refute my posts and back up your claims. When you just skipped a post where I showed in detail backed by the actual link how you failed your own “Test”, which was a hilarious pathetic attempt at avoiding posts where I proved in detail backed by evidence how you’re a clueless liar.

            “who reflexively rejects any one-state solution seeking whatsoever as automatically “the destruction of Israel” -> Suffice it to say that someone who is too stupid or naive to grasp how turning Israel into a de-facto Arab state, making the Jews live as persecuted minority at the mercy of an Arab Muslim majority is the end of Israel, is so out of touch with reality that it is literally insane.
            So out of touch with the reality of the Middle-East and what is going on in Arab countries, not to mention Gaza and with the PLO, and actually think it’ll be “a safe, peaceful democratic state” among other hilarious nonsense that it’s almost goes beyond crazy into endearing.
            “a de facto Israel-engineered one state already exists” -> of course it doesn’t and it will never be despite delusional idiots claiming how ending Israel and turning it into another Arab state is a fantastic idea.
            “screws to the Palestinians via a deliberately impossible two state solution” -> right, to the Palestinians a viable existing Israel, the homeland of the Jewish people, in the Middle-East is indeed an impossible situation. See the evidence in the Facebook comments section. They say so openly.
            “Israelis don’t want to hear what I have to say” -> oh yes, bringing an unrelated link from this own news blog will somehow negate the posts you repeatedly ignored. The first post in the comments section sums it up nicely.
            Also the pic of Ezra Nawi, the child rapist who is responsible for the death of Palestinians, is a nice touch. Remember when you brought a link about him and when I pointed it out you said (on Monday, October 29, 2018) and I quote you “Ido’s use of Ezra Nawi is appalling, really I’m disgusted” ?
            apparently you had no clue what he did. Just one example among many, you know. Just like you being clueless about the law sentencing to death Palestinians who sell land property to Jews which was what Nawi used to kill Palestinians.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Really you have to stop wasting everyone’s time, Ido. Lord have mercy on us, the same tedious dross, the same mind-numbing propaganda, the same willful missing of the point. Not a new thing in it, but, alas, a revealing anew of baseness. That is, we have noticed that when you are under pressure something else emerges beneath the clownery and the fakery and the boorish name-calling: maliciousness. I stand with Guy Hirschfeld, who is everything you are not. I stand also with Orly Noy and stand against the persecution of Ezra Nawi:
            https://972mag.com/the-persecution-of-ezra-nawi/135807/

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Really you have to stop wasting everyone’s time” – says the guy who once again ignored my posts where I show in detail how he’s a clueless liar who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, how I showed in detail how he failed his own idiotic “Test”, a fact you to this moment evade as if your life depends on it.
            “the same tedious dross, the same mind-numbing propaganda” -> as usual that’s an interesting interpretation to posts exposing your hilarious lies and clueless nonsense. If it’s propaganda or wrong in any way then prove it. Back up your claims. Why can’t you do this ?
            I proved you are a clueless liar. Refute my posts. Go ahead, why is this impossible for you again and again ? how can you not realize that not being able to do so is not exactly helping your “argument” ?
            “same willful missing of the point” -> this is a new one. Please by all means, where did I miss the point ? when I provided undeniable evidence where you failed your own hilarious “Test” ? please by all means, go ahead.
            “we have noticed” -> as always the use of the royal “We” is adorable.
            “when you are under pressure something else emerges beneath” -> where do you pull these hilarious nonsense from ? you think that if you say this incredible bullshit it’ll somehow improve your established clueless liar status, as displayed in detail in the posts above which you ignored (again) ?
            “I stand with Guy Hirschfeld” -> My posts weren’t about him. You changed the subject and brought him in, again thinking doing this will somehow divert attention from the posts you ignored.
            “and stand against the persecution of Ezra Nawi” -> yes, your affinity for the child raping Palestinian killer was already established. Like you being clueless about the Palestinian law sentencing Palestinians to death for selling land property to Jews which was what Nawi used to kill Palestinians. Now how about standing and addressing the posts you ignored ? changing the subject again didn’t make them vanish, they are right there.
            Or are you going to evade and ignore them again ? lie some more ? change the subject again ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Yet another meaningless tirade of abuse with malice. Yet another waste of everyone’s time. Ido thinks we can’t read. Ido thinks he’s hot stuff talking about molestation. The entire occupation is a molestation.
            So my response to someone else on that page (“The Persecution of Ezra Nawi” by Orly Noy) is worth repeating to Ido as most all of it applies to him too ==>

            “Thanks for your opinion. Here’s mine: Many of us consider Ayalet Shaked a degenerate individual. Did not Shaked persecute the good, honorable soldiers of Breaking the Silence? Did not Shaked further the molestation by occupation of millions of Palestinians? Did not Shaked try to pass racist laws? Does not Shaked try to corrupt the rule of law and undermine the independence of the High Court in furtherance of a Feiglinist State agenda? Did not you, Halevy, support all that and more? We are not all Ayalet Shaked. Or Itshak Gordin Halevy.

            By the way, let me know when the Israeli state will allow Israelis to sell land west of the green line to West Bank Palestinians and let those buyers make the purchase and move west to “settle” their property. And let me know that this Israeli state will smile upon the Jewish sellers of the land. And not have the Shabak knocking on their door at 3AM. Since you’re all in favor of rooting out the degenerates that prevent fair real estate practices, Halevy, I’m sure you’ll get right on it and get it right. In your anti-degenerate crusade here.

            Oh and while you’re at it, you anti-degenerate crusader, please see to it that these degenerates destroying Palestinian vineyards get arrested?

            100 Vines Vandalized in Palestinian Vineyard Near Ramallah
            This is the third such incident in less than a week. On a nearby rock was a message saying: ‘Regards from Esh Kodesh,’ the name of a neighboring Israeli outpost
            May 30, 2018
            https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-100-vines-vandalized-in-palestinian-vineyard-near-ramallah-1.6132559

            Thanks again.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Aaaaand again you completely ignored my posts. Amazing. Didn’t answer my questions, didn’t refute my posts or backed up your claims. Nada.
            “Ido thinks we can’t read” -> well based on the fact that you again refuse to address my posts, it is a possibility. Or maybe selective reading. And what’s with the royal “we” ? it’s embarrassing. I know you once again ignored my posts showing in detail how you are a clueless liar who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, how you evaded my posts, how you repeatedly change the subject to avoid addressing said posts, how you again (6th time ?) ignored the fact that you failed you own pathetic “Test”, which was in itself a pathetic way to avoid my posts. You know, the usual.
            “Ido thinks he’s hot stuff talking about molestation” -> what are you talking about ? where do you pull this idiotic nonsense from ? I think I’m hot stuff for pointing out a fact about Ezra Nawi ? are you insane ? did what I say about him is incorrect ?
            “s worth repeating” -> of course, why address the multitude of posts right here showing in detail that you’re a clueless liar who repeatedly evades my post when you can change the subject again. Incredible. And do so with a link to an article blocked by a paywall you know I can’t read as I told you so about 50 times. Good job.
            The posts are still there. You changing the subject didn’t make them vanish, sorry to disappoint you. The evidence I provided is still there above. Go right ahead.

            Reply to Comment
    6. Nathanael

      It won’t end well. However, the world is already finding Israeli government apartheid repulsive. After the collapse of Saudi Arabia, which is going to consume the news for th next five years, countries will decide it’s not a good idea to deal with a fascist, apartheid government, and will slowly isolate fascist Israel. At that point, it will no longer be possible for Israelis to emigrate in order to escape the hell their government has created for them, and then things will change.

      Reply to Comment
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