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Labour MPs: Vote yes on Palestinian statehood

In an appeal that demonstrates the complete bankruptcy of the peace camp, the Israeli Labor Party is  calling on its British counterparts to oppose the motion on Palestinian statehood Monday, ‘in the name of peace.’ Netanyahu couldn’t have put it better.

Houses of Parliament, London, UK (photo: Ramón Cutanda López / (CC BY 2.0)

Houses of Parliament, London, UK. The British Parliament will take a symbolic vote on Palestinian statehood on Monday (photo: Ramón Cutanda López / (CC BY 2.0)

The British Parliament will vote Monday on a motion supporting the Palestinian Authority’s request to recognize it as a state. The vote is mostly symbolic, and the British government will still be able to take any form of action it wants. The big drama is taking place within the ranks of Labour. The opposition party is supporting the motion, but Israel is hoping to get as many MPs as possible to defy the party line and oppose. Apparently, a real controversy is taking place.

The call to recognize independent Palestine is just about the last card in Mahmoud Abbas’ hand, apart from dismantling the Palestinian Authority, which is a highly risky move that could lead to unknown consequences throughout the region. Abbas, like any sensible observer, finally realized that Israel has made up its mind to reject the two-state solution. Even if Abbas was to recognize Israel “as a Jewish State” – even if he was to join Likud – there is a consensus in the Israeli leadership against withdrawing from the Jordan Valley and East Jerusalem. This alone makes any two-state solution impossible, before even getting to issues like refugees or the fate of the settlements.

Netanyahu made his position on the Jordan Valley and Jerusalem clear to John Kerry, and has repeated it publicly since. The war in Gaza didn’t change Israel’s mind – in fact, it made it even more determined to maintain the status quo.

Abbas is therefore trying to get the international community’s help in creating diplomatic momentum that might make Israel reevaluate its policies. Recognizing Palestine won’t change a lot on the ground, but it will make it clear to Netanyahu’s government that the world doesn’t accept the status quo — like Israel does — as the preferred option for the foreseeable future.

It is surprising, therefore, to see who is leading the Israeli government’s effort to reject the motion in the British Parliament. Haaretz reported Sunday morning that the Israeli Labor party chairman (not to be confused with the party leader), member of Knesset Hilik Bar, sent a letter to members of the British Labour Party explaining that symbolic recognition of Palestinian statehood will make peace “less, rather than more likely.” Bar is calling UK’s Labour to oppose “unilateral moves” that would only make efforts towards peace less popular with Israelis.

It is only in the twisted world of Israeli-Palestinian politics that appealing to the international community and its most respected institutions is considered to be a “unilateral measure,” while actually changing the reality on the ground — as Israel has been doing for decades — isn’t. But let’s leave semantics aside and focus instead on the case the letter making.

MK Bar is not just the chairman of his party and the head of its foreign policy forum, he also leads the two-state caucus in Israel’s Knesset. Knowing his foreign audience all too well, he is using the only argument that still works for Israelis: that any move against the occupation will only play into the hands of the Right and prolong the occupation. But according to his logic, the international community should support Israel’s right-wing government in all its actions, teach Abbas a lesson that will prevent him from trying to challenge Jerusalem again, and wait for Israelis to change their minds about the occupation, of their own volition, at some undefined point.

For some reason, for a very long time most of the world thought that this was the best course of action. It took five years with Bibi, three wars in Gaza and record-setting settlement construction to make some reconsider. Not Bar and his friends, though. Even though Netanyahu failed to mention the notion of a Palestinian state during his speech at the UN, even though settlers invaded Palestinian neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, and after a bloody war in Gaza which was all about maintaining the status quo, they are still trying to convince us that the way to advance the cause of peace is by helping them promote right-wing policies, even as they sit in the opposition.

If Bar and his friends had minimal integrity, they would have dismantled the two-state caucus and declared it will only reconvene when there is an actual plan to discuss. If they were a bit more cunning, they would have realized that international pressure on Netanyahu would play into the opposition’s hands — that is, if the opposition has an alternative to offer regarding the Palestinian issue.

But Labor gave that up years ago. By now, the party has become accustomed to its role as the Likud’s spare tire. The only real debate you get in Labor is on the right timing to join the collation and the perfect moment to pretend being in the opposition — exactly as Tzipi Livni and her party function, by the way. Both Labor and Livni trade places from one Netanyahu government to the other – previously Labor was “promoting peace” within the coalition and Livni was talking about “the need to negotiate” from the opposition, and now it’s the other way around – Livni is in charge of negotiations inside the government and Labor is “promoting peace” from the opposition.

The only unbelievable aspect of this charade is the fact that there are still people who take it at face value. I kid you not: there are actually people convinced that the two-state caucus has something to do with the two-state solution. There are still people addicted to the Israeli Orwellian talk about the importance of negotiations. And when Labor or Livni stop talking about diplomacy and peace for a moment, those people become concerned that something might be wrong. The real problem is their failure to spot the lies that they have been fed for so many years by the heads of the Peace Camp.

When it comes to the occupation, there is not much difference between the Right and most of the Israeli Left. Both sides agree on the need to deal with the Palestinians through military force; both agree on the settlements (make no mistake – the disagreement is about their location, on what makes “a legitimate” settlement, and not on the principle of settling occupied land); both view Palestinian diplomacy as a threat. And most importantly — both see the diplomatic process as a constant attempt to form an Israeli consensus and then shove it down the Palestinians’ throat. This is exactly what MK Bar’s letter was all about.

Personally, I think that Abbas’ strategy probably reached a dead end. Right now, the necessary recalculation goes beyond a move at the UN or the identity of the next mediator. But before that, people should simply stop and listen to MK Bar and other heads of the so-called Israeli peace camp. On every major issue, they simply echo what Netanyahu and Liberman say, though with a different tone. So why not take it from the horse’s mouth?

Labour MPs, make no mistake: By opposing Palestinian statehood you won’t make negotiations resume, and even if they do, the Palestinian side will be weakened so much that nothing will come out of them – exactly as happened in previous rounds. Vote yes for Palestinian statehood. You will not make your Israeli counterparts at Labor any happier, but you’ll do the right and just thing. And by doing so, you might even help advance the cause of peace.

This article was first published on +972′s Hebrew-language sister site, Local Call. Read it in Hebrew here.

Related
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Israel’s watershed moment that wasn’t

 

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    COMMENTS

    1. Nayan Mullick

      Free Palatine

      Reply to Comment
    2. ahmad piperdy

      Be human and free palestine

      Reply to Comment
    3. Gustav

      “finally realized that Israel has made up its mind to reject the two-state solution. Even if Abbas was to recognize Israel “as a Jewish State”

      There is only ONE way to prove this assertion. Abbas should recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Why is he so petrified of doing that?

      ANSWER: because he did not yet give up on the idea of eventually eliminating the ONLY Jewish state which exists in this world.

      Revealing. Very revealing.

      Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

        It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

        Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.

        Reply to Comment
        • Brian

          So interesting the maths one learned in school. 100 – 22 = 0
          0 + 22 = infinity
          78 = 0
          22 = infinity
          22 – 78 = 22 – 0 = infinity
          -56 = infinity!
          22 = infinity!
          22 = -56!
          Eureka!
          A parallel universe!
          Hmmmmmm. Those equations appear to be unsolvable.
          Are those irrational numbers by any chance?
          So interesting. You’ve had some interesting teachers I’ll grant you that.

          Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Brian and his “New Math”.

            What he does not want to accept though is reality. All one needs to do is to look at the map. Israel’s territory represents 0.5% of the lands that Arabs own. That is 0.005 of the land mass which Arabs own. But having little Israel on the map is too much for them. And for our “Math Genius” Brian …

            Reply to Comment
      • Bruce Gould

        There are several reasons why Abbas and other Palestininas do not want to recognize Israel as a “Jewish state”. For one, 25% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish, many of them are relatives of people who live in the West Bank or Gaza, and to recognize Israel as a “Jewish state” does not bode well for the civil rights of these folks. Secondly, “recognizing” Israel as a Jewish state doesn’t mean a lot (or anything) in terms of international law – there is a large body of law that regulates the relations between people, and “recognizing” a state as Jewish/Muslim/Hindu or whatever doesn’t make a lot of sense. I might add that the Israeli government has never formally recognized the Palestinians as a native poeple. Finally, as a U.S. taxpayer who underwrites the occupation, *I* do not not want Israels to be “recognized” a a “Jewish state”.

        Reply to Comment
      • Gary Spedding

        I think, looking at the actual facts, that Abbas simply doesn’t wish to recognise Israel as an ethnocratic state. Nor should any Palestinian leader accept the notion that Israel has the right to discriminate against non-Jewish citizens and residents of Israel – most of whom are Palestinian Arabs.

        It’s also a ludicrous demand for Israel to make in the first place.

        Reply to Comment
        • noe

          It’s more ludicrous to look at the entire Arab world, including Jew-free Palestinian areas, and claim that Israel, which has a 25% citizenry of non-Jews who have more rights than any of the surrounding states including the Palestinian areas, is the discriminatory country.

          Reply to Comment
      • Yeah, right

        Gustav: “There is only ONE way to prove this assertion. Abbas should recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Why is he so petrified of doing that?”

        Because that will result in him handing over all his negotiating cards for the dubious “benefit” of “proving” that Netanyahu has no intention of negotiating a two-state solution.

        From Abbas’ PoV how does that make any sense whatsoever?

        Abbas already knows that Netanyahu is utterly shameless, so “exposing” him as a charlatan would have about as much effect as pouring water onto a duck’s back; Bibi would simply shrug off that revelation and continue on with the settlements.

        And meanwhile (did I mention this already?) Abbas will have handed over to Netanyahu all of the cards that he holds, punt as they are.

        Again, how does that makes any sense to Abbas?

        Reply to Comment
        • Gustav

          Gustav: “There is only ONE way to prove this assertion. Abbas should recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Why is he so petrified of doing that?”

          Whatshisface:”Because that will result in him handing over all his negotiating cards for the dubious “benefit” of “proving” that Netanyahu has no intention of negotiating a two-state solution.”

          Funny that. I see it the other way. Abbas has no intention of negotiating a two state solution. But unlike you, I have evidence to support my claim: Abbas is refusing to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

          Whatshisface:”From Abbas’ PoV how does that make any sense whatsoever?”

          Of course it does. He does not want a Jewish state. He wants one Arab Muslim state. Abbas is a supremacist.

          Whatshisface:”Abbas already knows that Netanyahu is utterly shameless, so “exposing” him as a charlatan would have about as much effect as pouring water onto a duck’s back;”

          On the other hand, Abbas is as subtle as a sledge hammer. He makes it abundantly clear that he is not willing to accept the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East.

          Whatshisface:”Bibi would simply shrug off that revelation and continue on with the settlements.”

          Abbas is a straight forward Arab supremacist. He wants a Judenrein Palestine and as an interim stage, a weakened Israel flooded with Arabs. Followed by an Arab takeover. In other words:

          Stage 1: one and a half Arab states.

          Stage 2: A single Arab only Jew free state.

          Whatshisface:”And meanwhile (did I mention this already?) Abbas will have handed over to Netanyahu all of the cards that he holds, punt as they are.”

          What cards are those? You did not mention it Mr Whatshisface.

          Whatshisface:”Again, how does that makes any sense to Abbas?”

          In no way. He wants one Arab state and NO Jewish state. I am glad you agree with me on that.

          Reply to Comment
          • Yeah, right

            Gustav: “Funny that. I see it the other way. Abbas has no intention of negotiating a two state solution.”

            So Gustav is claiming that Abbas doesn’t want two states living side by side, even though he has openly committed his side to that end, while Netanyahu…. refuses.

            Odd. Very odd indeed.

            But not half as odd as what follows…

            Gustav: “But unlike you, I have evidence to support my claim:”

            Oh, please, then let’s see it.

            Gustav: “Abbas is refusing to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.”

            Ahem. That actually isn’t “evidence” for your argument. It is instead a “red-herring”.

            Abbas recognizes “two-states”, those two states being Israel and Palestine (unlike Netanyahu, who only recognizes one).

            Abbas acknowledges that both of those states have a *right* to exist in peace and security (unlike Netanyahu, who only sees Israel as possessing that *right*, while Those Others have to beg for it).

            Yet you are insisting on pointing to something else i.e. Israel’s own self-description as a “Jewish state”.

            How odd, since this it is undeniably true that Abbas isn’t Jewish, nor is he an Israeli.

            Therefore how the state of Israel chooses to define itself is – by definition! – none of his business.

            All he has to do it to recognize that Israel can define itself any way that it wants, which he has done.

            Get it?

            Your demand is a circus side-show.

            It has nothing to do with a two-state-solution, precisely because it isn’t the business of “Palestine” to decide how “Israel” defines itself

            Nor, of course, is it the business of any Israeli (yeah, I’m looking at you, dude) to define what “Palestine” is.

            You Zionists really do have some funny ideas. So funny, indeed, that it goes Beyond Chutzpah.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Gustav: “Funny that. I see it the other way. Abbas has no intention of negotiating a two state solution.”

            Whatshisface:”So Gustav is claiming that Abbas doesn’t want two states living side by side, even though he has openly committed his side to that end,”

            He committed his side to what he thinks he will be able to turn into two Arab states which would eventually merge into one.

            Whatshisface:”while Netanyahu…. refuses.”

            Yep, you are right. Netanyahu refuses Abbas’s idea of creating first one and a half Arab states which would eventually turn into a single merged Arab state and no Jewish state. Yes Netanyahu refuses that. I don’t blame him.

            Whatshisface:”Odd. Very odd indeed.”

            Only if one is an Arab. Then indeed it is odd. Because you Arabs expect everything and you want to give nothing. To me that is odd …

            Whatshisface:”But not half as odd as what follows… ”

            Oh goodie. Let’s call it Whatshisface’s mystery. Shall we? Yea … Let’s …

            Gustav: “But unlike you, I have evidence to support my claim:”

            Whatshisface:”Oh, please, then let’s see it.”

            You will. Don’t be so jumpy, Mr Whatshisface …

            Gustav: “Abbas is refusing to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.”

            “Ahem. That actually isn’t “evidence” for your argument. It is instead a “red-herring”.

            Yes it is … no it isn’t a red herring …

            Whatshisface:”Abbas recognizes “two-states”, those two states being Israel and Palestine”

            But Abbas does not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though UN resolution 181 referred to the partitioning of Palestine into two states. One JEWISH and one Arab. But the Arabs rejected … yes, rejected the JEWISH state bit. And Abbas refuses to redress that rejection.

            Whatshisface:”(unlike Netanyahu, who only recognizes one).”

            … Only so long as the Palestinians continue to refuse to recognize the Jewish state. After that, Netanyahu is on the record of stating that he would recognize the Palestinian state.

            Whatshisface:”Abbas acknowledges that both of those states have a *right* to exist in peace and security”

            He does not acknowledge that the Jewish state has a right to exist in peace and security. Because he refuses to recognize the Jewish state.

            Whatshisface:”(unlike Netanyahu, who only sees Israel as possessing that *right*, while Those Others have to beg for it).”

            BS. Netanyahu would never attack the others unless the others attack the Jewish state first or impose an imminent threat. The best way to avoid the latter, is to sign a formal pace deal and to extend mutual recognition.

            Whatshisface:”Yet you are insisting on pointing to something else i.e. Israel’s own self-description as a “Jewish state”.

            Precisely. Recognition of the Jewish state which the UN specifically designated as the Jewish state and which the Palestinian Arabs have rejected to this very day.

            Whatshisface:”How odd,”

            Nah. Nothing odd about it. The Palestinian Arabs need to specifically renounce their past rejection of the Jewish state. By doing that, they will demonstrate their intention to stop their 100 year old war against the Jewish state.

            Whatshisface:”since this it is undeniably true that Abbas isn’t Jewish, nor is he an Israeli.”

            Interesting logic. Are you saying that Netanyahu is a Muslim Arab? No? Then by your logic he too should not have to recognize the Arab Islamic state of Palestine?

            Whatshisface:”Therefore how the state of Israel chooses to define itself is – by definition! – none of his business.”

            But it is our business if he continues the 100 year old rejection of the Jewish state because it means that Abbas has not given up on the old Palestinian arab idea of trying to destroy our Jewish state.

            Whatshisface:”All he has to do it to recognize that Israel can define itself any way that it wants, which he has done.”

            Nope! He has to renounce the old Palestinian Arab policy of making war on the JEWISH state, by specifically now recognizing the Jewish state.

            “Get it?”

            I get it. You don’t get it, Whatshisface.

            Whatshisface:”Your demand is a circus side-show.”

            Your rejection of my demand is THE circus side-show.

            Whatshisface:”It has nothing to do with a two-state-solution, precisely because it isn’t the business of “Palestine” to decide how “Israel” defines itself”

            But it is our business to make them eat their words for rejecting our right to exist as a Jewish state for so long.

            Whatshisface:”Nor, of course, is it the business of any Israeli (yeah, I’m looking at you, dude) to define what “Palestine” is.”

            Who me? I never rejected the idea of the two state solution. Most of my fellow Israelis don’t either. But it won’t happen till the Palestinian Arabs will give us exactly what we ask.

            Now tell me. What is so complicated about it? Why are they chocong on “THE JEWISH STATE” bit? If they would give in on that and Netanyahu would renege, many Israelis would turn on Netanyahu. But for that to happen. The Palestinian people themselves would have to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, via a national referendum. Abbas’s recognition now is not enough. Even though a few years ago it would have been enough. Now it isn’t because we have lost a lot of good will and trust which a few years ago we still had towards Abbas.

            Whatshisface:”You Zionists really do have some funny ideas. So funny, indeed, that it goes Beyond Chutzpah.”

            You like our Hutzpah, Whatshisface? We like it too. We pride ourselves on our ability to stay alive in this very rough neighborhood. And you know what? In the next few decades, our Western allies will be learning a lot from us about how to deal with intransigent murderous savages who expect humanitarian treatment from others but who kidnap, torture, murder and behead or lynch their enemies mercilessly when they get the upper hand. You want Hutzpah? That is hutzpah.

            Reply to Comment
          • Yeah, right

            Gustav gives a masterclass demonstration of how one can look in the mirror and see the intentions of their enemy.

            This is a fact: in 1988 the Palestinians gave an unconditional recognition of the right of Israel to live in peace and security, and to this very day they have not retracted, restricted, or in any other way qualified that unconditional commitment.

            This is also a fact: in 1988 the state of Israel did not return the favour, and still hasn’t. No Israeli government has ever acknowledged that the state of Palestine has a *right* to exist, let alone that it has a right to exist free from this endless belligerent occupation.

            Yet Gustav can look at those two facts – again, they are both indisputable facts – and he can claim with a straight face that it is the Palestinians who don’t want a two-state-solution.

            Even though – indisputably – the Palestinians hooked their star to that two-state-solution many decades ago, while Israel has spend those same decades refuses to do the same.

            Odd. Very, very odd indeed.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Whatshisface:”Gustav gives a masterclass demonstration of how one can look in the mirror and see the intentions of their enemy.”

            Cute and funny too. I like it. Can I have this saying, Mr Whatshisface?

            Whatshisface:”This is a fact: in 1988 the Palestinians gave an unconditional recognition of the right of Israel to live in peace and security,”

            Yea? And how did that work out? During the subsequent Oslo negotiations, the level of terrorism increased rather than stopped as it should have, given such unconditional recognition. Ergo, they lied. Not a good start eh Mr Whatshisface?

            Whatshisface:”and to this very day they have not retracted, restricted, or in any other way qualified that unconditional commitment.”

            No, they just lied about it. A minor detail huh? By the way. It doesn’t matter anyway because as I explained to Mr ‘Slow on The Uptake’ given the rejection of Arabs of the Jewish state since 1947. And their consequent war because of that rejection. They need to reverse that rejection. How? That ain’t rocket science. They need to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. And that they have not been willing to do.

            Never mind. We are a patient people. We can wait …

            Whatshisface:”This is also a fact: in 1988 the state of Israel did not return the favour, and still hasn’t. No Israeli government has ever acknowledged that the state of Palestine has a *right* to exist, let alone that it has a right to exist free from this endless belligerent occupation.”

            Do you feel your nose growing again Pinochio? Oops er I mean Mr Whatshisface?

            Two of Israel’s PMs, Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert drew actual maps of the proposed two states. But their offers were rejected/ignored.

            Whatshisface:”Yet Gustav can look at those two facts – again, they are both indisputable facts – and he can claim with a straight face that it is the Palestinians who don’t want a two-state-solution.”

            Indisputable facts? You mean disputable assertions as I demonstrated above.

            Whatshisface:”Even though – indisputably – the Palestinians hooked their star to that two-state-solution many decades ago, while Israel has spend those same decades refuses to do the same.”

            LOL. Liar Liar your pant is on fire Mr Whatshisface. Next thing you’ll claim the Palestiian Arabs always wanted peace and the two state solution but the Jews were the ones to reject it?

            Whatshisface:”Odd. Very, very odd indeed.”

            The only thing odd Mr Whatshisface is that you seem to believe your own revisionist history. Are you a relation of David Irving by any chance??

            Reply to Comment
    4. Gustav

      Ok folks, I get it …

      Any state which has a minority is automatically ethnocentric and it is a state which discriminates?

      Well then, England is a Christian state. Yes, it is FORMALLY a Christian state. It has minorities and you claim that it is therefore ethnocentric? And it discriminates against it’s minorities?

      By the way, the proposed shiny new Palestine will be a Muslim Arab state? Will you call that an ethnocracy too?

      As for what you want or don’t want Bruce, we don’t care. We will not let INDIVIDUALS like you dictate what kind of state we have because we know that it is POSSIBLE to have a Jewish majority state which isn’t discriminatory towards it’s minorities. Just as much as it is possible to have Christian majority states which aren’t discriminatory.

      Reply to Comment
      • Nah, ya' don't get it.

        Gustav: “Ok folks, I get it …”

        Immediately followed by comments that show that Gustav doesn’t “get it”.

        Witness….

        Gustav: “Any state which has a minority is automatically ethnocentric and it is a state which discriminates?”

        No, it’s the “discriminating” part that makes a state “ethnocentric”, it isn’t at all an “automatic” feature of having an ethnic minority.

        Gustav: “Well then, England is a Christian state. Yes, it is FORMALLY a Christian state.”

        It has a state religion, yes.

        Remind me again in what way is anyone discriminated against because they AREN’T followers of that religion?

        Gustav: “It has minorities and you claim that it is therefore ethnocentric? And it discriminates against it’s minorities?”

        Yes, it has minorities and, no, it does not discriminate against those minorities.

        Compare And Contrast with Israel, which not only discriminates against those minorities, but actually prides itself on that discrimination.

        Gustav: “By the way, the proposed shiny new Palestine will be a Muslim Arab state? Will you call that an ethnocracy too?”

        No. It will officially be an “Arab state”, though not necessarily a “Muslim Arab state”.

        But either way, what it calls itself is not the issue. What matters is how it will treat its minorities.

        Aren’t you supposed to be a champion of the “let’s put that to the test, why not?” school of thought, Gustav?

        Reply to Comment
        • Brian

          Nice.

          Reply to Comment
        • Gustav

          Gustav: “Ok folks, I get it …”

          Whatshisface:”Immediately followed by comments that show that Gustav doesn’t “get it”.

          BS alert …

          Whatshisface:”Witness….”

          Yea let’s witness your BS Mr Whatshisface let’s witness it already. Stop keeping us in suspense …

          Gustav: “Any state which has a minority is automatically ethnocentric and it is a state which discriminates?”

          Whatshisface:”No, it’s the “discriminating” part that makes a state “ethnocentric”, it isn’t at all an “automatic” feature of having an ethnic minority.”

          Oh goodie, at least Whatshisface is not entirely comatose.

          But let’s just witness his BS …

          He claims that Israel’s laws are discriminatory yet … yet …

          yet he lies. Witness …

          “According to the State Department, Israel’s anti-discrimination law “prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex, marital status, or sexual orientation. The law also prohibits discrimination by both government and nongovernment entities on the basis of race, religion, political beliefs, and age.”

          Go figure …

          Go wipe the egg off your face, Mr Whatshisface.

          Gustav: “Well then, England is a Christian state. Yes, it is FORMALLY a Christian state.”

          Whatshisface:”It has a state religion, yes.”

          No, Mr Whatshisface, England is a Christian state. It’s head is the Queen of England who is also the head of the Anglican Church. That makes it a Christian state.

          Whatshisface:”Remind me again in what way is anyone discriminated against because they AREN’T followers of that religion?”

          I will, Mr Whatshisface as soon as you remind me what Israeli law discriminates against non Jews.

          Gustav: “It has minorities and you claim that it is therefore ethnocentric? And it discriminates against it’s minorities?”

          Whatshisface:”Yes, it has minorities and, no, it does not discriminate against those minorities.”

          Yes, that’s what I have been saying too. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

          Whatshisface:”Compare And Contrast with Israel, which not only discriminates against those minorities, but actually prides itself on that discrimination.”

          Really? Then how come Israel has anti Discrimination laws? Do you feel your nose lengthening, Pinochio? Oops, I mean Mr whatshisface.

          Gustav: “By the way, the proposed shiny new Palestine will be a Muslim Arab state? Will you call that an ethnocracy too?”

          Whatshisface:”No. It will officially be an “Arab state”, though not necessarily a “Muslim Arab state”.

          Pinochio strikes again. Even the PLO charter promises that the shiny new Palestinian state will be governed according to Islamic laws. And Hamas will make sure of it if they don’t mean it.

          Whatshisface:”But either way, what it calls itself is not the issue. What matters is how it will treat its minorities.”

          Yep, and Arab nations have a great record on how they treat minorities. I can’t wait to see the Palestinian Arabs doing better. Come to think of it, that’s not much of a challange. You do know that Mr Whatshisface, don’t you?

          The PLO has a law which forbids Arabs to sell land to Jews. The penalty for breaking that law is death. Not a very promising start is it, Whatshisface? I would say that’s a “slight case” of discrimination based on religion, wouldn’t you, Mr Whatshisface?

          Whatshisface:”Aren’t you supposed to be a champion of the “let’s put that to the test, why not?” school of thought, Gustav?”

          Only with dudes who extend us the same courtesy. But you don’t, do you sunshine? So quit complaining otherwise I might call you a hypocrite. That would be impolite wouldn’t it? And you know me … you do know that I am not impolite, don’t you Mr, Whatshisface?

          Reply to Comment
    5. Tomer

      It is not important what the British parliament votes or does not vote.

      The reality is that we are building more towns in Yesha. In another few years, there will be 500,00) Israelis in Yesha, making a PLO nation in these lands an impossibility.

      Reply to Comment
    6. Richard

      Voting yes would greatly benefit Bibi et al by scaring Israelis and showing them that the foreign policy of European countries is starting to be influenced by a chauvinistic, anti-Semitic Muslims electorate. BDS wackjobs get a big stiffy from anything that looks like a slap in the face to Israeli Jews, so big surprise +972 endorses this imbecility. Britain can’t be bothered to make a serious challenge to genocidal slavers who have more British Muslims fighting for them than the British Army does, but voting no to Israeli security is priority #1. Britain is becoming a wretched, provincial backwater with no real values and no liberal, progressive culture.

      Reply to Comment
    7. Gustav

      “Britain can’t be bothered to make a serious challenge to genocidal slavers who have more British Muslims fighting for them than the British Army does”

      Don’t worry Richard. The clouds of backlash are gathering over Britain’s skies. Native Brits are getting fed up with the EU and Britain’s immigration laws which are marginalizing Anglo Saxons in their own country. A few more public beheadings of poor British soldiers in the street will tip the balance. Then just watch out …

      Reply to Comment
      • CigarButNoNice

        @Gustav: “Native Brits are getting fed up with the EU and Britain’s immigration laws which are marginalizing Anglo Saxons in their own country.”

        Excellent point, Gustav. We’re being told by the anti-Zionists to embrace multiculturalism just when that ideology is being—slowly but surely—rejected by all the nations in the West. The future is one of nation-states where only members of the nation have political rights. How do I know this? Prophetic powers? No, just the common-sense observation that multicultural free-for-all dumping grounds are not sustainable, a fact we can see with our very eyes (take a gander at the Cultural Enrichment Archive on Gates of Vienna for a good sampling).

        I’m afraid the Arab colonists will have to be content with the paltry 20+ nation-states they already have; the Jewish nation-state is for the Jews, just as the Thai nation-state is for the Thais, the Hellenic nation-state is for the Greeks, et cetera.

        Oh, and @Bruce Gold:

        “I might add that the Israeli government has never formally recognized the Palestinians as a native poeple.”

        Arab colonists are indigenous to the Arabian Peninsula, and have no more rights to the Jewish indigenous territory, the Land of Israel, than the Dutch have to Japan.

        Reply to Comment
    8. Brian

      Scheizaf does a nice job here summarizing the perversities, the dishonesties of the status quo. An ongoing charade indeed. Dishonesty is the name of the game, Netanyahu, it’s practitioner par excellence. And the US politicians shamelessly collude. Grimly fascinating to watch play out in this twilight hour, year 47 and counting. How does it end? Badly is the only sure thing.

      Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        “How does it end? Badly is the only sure thing.”

        Not for us Brian dear. Badly for the Arabs to be sure, unless they’ll learn to compromise.

        Reply to Comment
        • Brian

          Ah yes, that lovely right wing Zionist notion of “compromise” in the Palestinian context. So ethical, so sensitive, so fair. And 22 = -56! Lest we forget! My advice to you is to ask for your money back from your maths teacher and your history teacher. And your ethics teacher? Sue the bastard for damages.

          Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            “Ah yes, that lovely right wing Zionist notion of “compromise”

            This is a vintage Brian response.

            1. Ignore everything that was said before in this thread.

            2. Keep things general.

            3. Accuse Zionists. It doesn’t matter with what, just accuse them of something non specific. Keep it general …

            Now let me force some specifity down your throat, sunshine. Yes, YOU Brian …

            Our idea of compromise is for them [the Palestinians] to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Then we will also recognize their state. Quid pro quo get it? Or is that a novel concept for you?

            Now tell us what is YOUR idea of compromise sunshine?

            Reply to Comment
          • Brian

            NSDAP members of the 1930s also had no sense of humor and also were fond of such debate techniques as “let me force some specificity down your throat.” Listen to yourselves. In all seriousness.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            That response says it all.

            No sensible response from our Brian. Just more accusations and dark intimations.

            Sigh …

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Brian in full flight …

            Ducking weaving and avoiding being pinned down.

            Then he moves on to his accusations. He now called me a member of the NSDAP, what a joker …

            last but not least, he will pretend to be the aggrieved party when I label him for what he is: a cheap, very unintelligent propagandist. And this description of him is just flattering. My previous description of him is actually more pertinent [he knows what it was]. It will give him the excuse to pretend to be hurt and to obfuscate more …

            So predictable, yes our Brian is soooooo predictable ….

            Reply to Comment
          • Brian

            Yes the implications of what you say are indeed (oops!) dark. I mean it and am not joking. As in sinister. In your world “let me force some specificity down your throat” is a debate technique, an acceptable manner of discourse. This is very coarse. It is the language of hoodlums. Of bullies. Of fascism. As in the NSDAP. This has to be spelled out? And it is telling. I could not be more serious.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Ok Brian, I get what you are doing. You are trying to dumb down the discussion so that our counter arguments to this article won’t be noticed.

            That’s why I will repeat what I said before:

            “There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

            It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

            Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            And I’ll repeat this message too, Brian dear …

            “Ok folks, I get it …

            Any state which has a minority is automatically ethnocentric and it is a state which discriminates?

            Well then, England is a Christian state. Yes, it is FORMALLY a Christian state. It has minorities and you claim that it is therefore ethnocentric? And it discriminates against it’s minorities?

            By the way, the proposed shiny new Palestine will be a Muslim Arab state? Will you call that an ethnocracy too?

            As for what you want or don’t want Bruce, we don’t care. We will not let INDIVIDUALS like you dictate what kind of state we have because we know that it is POSSIBLE to have a Jewish majority state which isn’t discriminatory towards it’s minorities. Just as much as it is possible to have Christian majority states which aren’t discriminatory.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Georg

            I woldn’t be too sure that JSIL-lover Gustav went to a school at all

            Reply to Comment
          • JohnW

            “I woldn’t be too sure that JSIL-lover Gustav went to a school at all”

            Yea but would you know how to differentiate between your own left hand and right hand Georg?

            I very much doubt it because you sound to be retarded.

            Reply to Comment
      • Richard

        “An ongoing charade indeed.” Did you really need that “indeed” there? This sounds like a middle school history paper. How old are you exactly?

        Reply to Comment
        • Brian

          Literary criticism!!! Not to needle you, but indeed I needed that indeed!

          Reply to Comment
    9. Brian

      To laboriously spell out for you, specifically, what you know already, and what reasonable people recognize the code word, “compromise,” to mean, when spoken by a right wing Zionist, is: “I’ve got 78%, what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is negotiable. I demand you ‘compromise’ on that other 22% by giving me at least half of it, probably more, and the best parts. And I also demand that you ‘compromise’ by humiliating yourself and converting to Zionism and formally recognizing The Nation State of the Jewish People, and thereby truly compromise the future rights of your Israeli Arab brethren because if you think Netanyahu and Bennet and his ilk are gonna take that piece of paper you want us to sign about Der Nation State von der Jewish People and then not use it to forevermore discriminate against Israeli Arabs you must think we are the worlds most complete freiers.” Ok? Got it?

      Reply to Comment
      • Brian

        Oops! Where’s a literary editor like Richard when you need him?

        “…because if you think Netanyahu and Bennet and his ilk are gonna take that piece of paper we want you to sign about Der Nation State von der Jewish People and then not use it to forevermore discriminate against Israeli Arabs you must be the worlds most complete freiers.”

        Reply to Comment
        • Gustav

          “…because if you think Netanyahu and Bennet and his ilk are gonna take that piece of paper we want you to sign about ….”

          More obfuscation by our intrepid Brian.

          This assertion of his was also addressed before but he prefers to block his ears, close his eyes and yell at the top of his voice: La La La … La La La … And say: I can’t hear you.

          But others, can sunshine. So here is my response again …

          “So any state which has a minority is automatically ethnocentric and it is a state which discriminates?

          Well then, England is a Christian state. Yes, it is FORMALLY a Christian state. It has minorities and you claim that it is therefore ethnocentric? And it discriminates against it’s minorities?

          By the way, the proposed shiny new Palestine will be a Muslim Arab state? Will you call that an ethnocracy too?

          As for what you want or don’t want Bruce, we don’t care. We will not let INDIVIDUALS like you dictate what kind of state we have because we know that it is POSSIBLE to have a Jewish majority state which isn’t discriminatory towards it’s minorities. Just as much as it is possible to have Christian majority states which aren’t discriminatory.”

          Reply to Comment
          • Brian

            THE CAPS THAT FOLLOW ARE NOT SHOUTING, THEY JUST DIFFERENTIATE SPEAKERS.

            “So any state which has a minority is automatically ethnocentric and it is a state which discriminates?

            NO.

            Well then, England is a Christian state. Yes, it is FORMALLY a Christian state. It has minorities and you claim that it is therefore ethnocentric? And it discriminates against it’s minorities?

            WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A ENGLISH CHRISTIAN STATE PRIESTLY AUTHORITY TOLD A CHRISTIAN SHE COULD NOT MARRY A JEW INSIDE ENGLAND AND HAD TO GO TO CYPRUS INSTEAD? WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THE ENGLISH STATE TOLD PEOPLE THEY HAD TO GET MARRIED IN A PARTICULAR RELIGION AND IN A PARTICULAR VERSION OF THAT RELIGION? IN WHAT CENTURY WAS THAT? WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME ENGLISHMEN IN SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS THREATENED TO KILL A JEW AND A CHRISTIAN WHO MARRIED EACH OTHER? YOU TALK UTTER NONSENSE, COMPLETE BULL****. DON’T WASTE MY TIME.

            By the way, the proposed shiny new Palestine will be a Muslim Arab state? Will you call that an ethnocracy too?

            I MIGHT, DEPENDING ON WHAT ACTUALLY TAKES PLACE ON THE GROUND. BUT YOU DON’T WANT TO LET THERE BE ANY STATE. GET REAL. DON’T WASTE MY TIME WITH WEASEL EDDIE HASKELL TYPE QUESTIONS.

            As for what you want or don’t want Bruce, we don’t care. We will not let INDIVIDUALS like you dictate what kind of state we have because we know that it is POSSIBLE to have a Jewish majority state which isn’t discriminatory towards it’s minorities. Just as much as it is possible to have Christian majority states which aren’t discriminatory.”

            DON’T PATRONIZE ME. I KNOW IT’S POSSIBLE TOO. THAT’S ALL THAT LARRY DERFNER AND OTHERS INCLUDING ME WANT. AND FURTHERMORE, YOU KNOW THAT BUT PREFER TO ELIDE THAT AND SIDESTEP AND SHUFFLE WITH UTTER BS ABOUT CHRISTIANS.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Brian:”THE CAPS THAT FOLLOW ARE NOT SHOUTING, THEY JUST DIFFERENTIATE SPEAKERS.”

            Gustav:“So any state which has a minority is automatically ethnocentric and it is a state which discriminates?”

            Brian:”NO.”

            Good. Then stop pretending that our Jewish majority state by it’s very nature needs to be racist.

            Brian:”WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A ENGLISH CHRISTIAN STATE PRIESTLY AUTHORITY TOLD A CHRISTIAN SHE COULD NOT MARRY A JEW INSIDE ENGLAND AND HAD TO GO TO CYPRUS INSTEAD?”

            Jews and non Jews CAN and do marry in Israel. To be sure, the religious parties do exert too much influence and the current laws do need to be changed. And they will be changed if there would ever be peace because most Israelis want those laws changed certainly the secular majority will be able to exert it’s influence more readily during peace times. Stupid laws are not enshrined in stone. Democratic countries can and do change laws.

            Brian:”WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THE ENGLISH STATE TOLD PEOPLE THEY HAD TO GET MARRIED IN A PARTICULAR RELIGION AND IN A PARTICULAR VERSION OF THAT RELIGION?”

            Israeli laws permit all religions to marry according to the religion which both parties belong. If they belong to different religions, they can still marry and the marriages are recognized. But the marriages need to take place either on the grounds of foreign embassies or outside Israel. Like I said, this is one stupid law which will be changed if peace ever comes.

            Brian:IN WHAT CENTURY WAS THAT? WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME ENGLISHMEN IN SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS THREATENED TO KILL A JEW AND A CHRISTIAN WHO MARRIED EACH OTHER? YOU TALK UTTER NONSENSE, COMPLETE BULL****. DON’T WASTE MY TIME.”

            Excuse me? Now you are talking about extremist individuals. Not state laws. Let’s be very clear about that. Are you saying England hasn’t got extremists? I’ll show how wrong you are. Muslim extremists in England recently hacked off the head of a poor Brit who was wearing a British army uniform. As a consequence, British soldiers have been instructed not to appear in army uniform outside the barracks. Are you now going to condemn the entire system of government in England because of those Muslim extremists? Brian?

            Gustav:”By the way, the proposed shiny new Palestine will be a Muslim Arab state? Will you call that an ethnocracy too?”

            Brian:”I MIGHT, DEPENDING ON WHAT ACTUALLY TAKES PLACE ON THE GROUND.”

            On the ground that the new Palestinian state is proposed to be an Islamic state with even more draconian marriage laws (and other laws) than Israel’s. Now since you are against a Jewish majority state for those reasons, your retort of “I might …” Sounds a bit hollow. You should by the same token be against the proposed ethnocentric Islamic state equally. Why aren’t you Brian?

            Brian:”BUT YOU DON’T WANT TO LET THERE BE ANY STATE. GET REAL. DON’T WASTE MY TIME WITH WEASEL EDDIE HASKELL TYPE QUESTIONS.”

            Actually I am on the record of being in favor of the two state solution but only if they recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

            Gustav:”As for what you want or don’t want Bruce, we don’t care. We will not let INDIVIDUALS like you dictate what kind of state we have because we know that it is POSSIBLE to have a Jewish majority state which isn’t discriminatory towards it’s minorities. Just as much as it is possible to have Christian majority states which aren’t discriminatory.”

            Brian:”DON’T PATRONIZE ME. I KNOW IT’S POSSIBLE TOO. THAT’S ALL THAT LARRY DERFNER AND OTHERS INCLUDING ME WANT.”

            You do? You want a Jewish majority state? Then what are we arguing about?

            Brian:”AND FURTHERMORE, YOU KNOW THAT BUT PREFER TO ELIDE THAT AND SIDESTEP AND SHUFFLE WITH UTTER BS ABOUT CHRISTIANS.”

            What did I sidestep exactly? I responded to Noam Sheizaf’s article then to others who like you tried to prove that somehow the very idea of a Jewish majority state is a racist idea. You don’t say that? Then why are you arguing with me? Argue with Noam and Bruce.

            PS

            All countries have bad laws which need to be changed. All democratic countries may even have bad leaders from time to time who need to be voted out. But only with regards to Israel does one hear the idea that the whole country needs to be scrapped and that it needs to be flooded with a people who have been trying to destroy the country for 100 years and replace it with their own ethnocracy. One has to wonder how the majority of Brits would have reacted in WW2 if some Brits would have vehemently suggested that Britain needs to surrender to Germany and accept German rule over Britain. Actually, there were such people in WW2 in Britain. A small minority. Go look up what happened to them …

            Reply to Comment
    10. Brian

      The Labour MPs are on the right track. Avraham Burg in Haaretz:

      “In the meantime, right-wing Israel (and for several decades, political Israel has become more and more right-wing, and I include the Labor Party on the right) is doing all it can to weaken the moderate political powers with which it is still possible to reach an agreement. How very simple, how very cynical. Netanyahu prefers a strong Hamas to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas as an equal partner in rights and responsibilities. This is because he needs to give Hamas only a few economic crumbs and humanitarian gestures – but he needs to give Abbas recognition, legitimacy, a state and equal status with Israel between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

      So what is left for Abbas to do? Join with Hamas? Or fight for the two-state solution with what remains of his strength? The Palestinian measure is by no means a unilateral one. It is not even a small attempt to respond to the unilateral reality of the Palestinian people. It is not as significant as a violent annexation of land, armed checkpoints, harassment on the roads, nighttime infiltrations by security forces and false arrests.

      The proposed peace process is much more than bilateral. It is a dramatic transition from Israeli unilateral reality to international multilateral reality. The idea is a simple one: first of all, the state of Palestine will be declared according to the accepted international norms that established the State of Israel. Then the rest of the challenges will be settled – refugees, Jerusalem, territories, economy, power, authority and infrastructure. This is a proper and necessary step in the only direction that is not violent. And when we think about it that way, it appears that the Mahmoud Abbas is the last patriot of peace in the field.”

      Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        “To laboriously spell out for you, specifically, what you know already, and what reasonable people recognize the code word, “compromise,” to mean, when spoken by a right wing Zionist, is: “I’ve got 78%, what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is negotiable. I demand you ‘compromise’ on that other 22% by giving me at least half of it, probably more, and the best parts.”

        What a lot of BS. Where does one begin to refute Brian’s BS?

        What 78% of the land have we got Brian? Have you taken a look at the map of the Middle East lately? Israel’s land area represents 0.5% of the total land area which the Arabs possess.

        But even if we look only at historic Palestine. The entire area west of the Jordan represents only 20% of historic Palestine while Eastern Palestine, the land that is Jordan now, represents 80% of historic Palestine. Yes, Brian, prior to 1929, all the maps of that era designated the area that became Jordan as Eastern Palestine.

        So tell us again, Brian, which side is the greedy side who wants even the small area that Israel is on only for themselves on top of everything else which they have aready got?

        “And I also demand that you ‘compromise’ by humiliating yourself and converting to Zionism”

        Why exactly is it humiliating for them to admit that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state. But at the same time it isn’t humiliating for us to recognize their state? Have you heard of quid pro quo brian? Nothing humiliating about quid pro quo.

        “and formally recognizing The Nation State of the Jewish People, and thereby truly compromise the future rights of your Israeli Arab brethren”

        Yea right. Why exactly are the future rights of Arabs in jeopardy? Because us Israeli Jews are the only people in the world who can’t guarantee minority rights? Have you read anything that we both said on this subject? If so, why are you ignoring it?

        “because if you think Netanyahu and Bennet and his ilk are gonna take that piece of paper you want us to sign about Der Nation State von der Jewish People and then not use it to forevermore discriminate against Israeli Arabs you must think we are the worlds most complete freiers.” Ok? Got it?”

        WTF, he just goes on repeating himself and chasing his own tail as if I didn’t already respond to this. Well then, here it goes again …

        Netanyahu and Bennet are just the current elected government of Israel. They are neither kings nor are they El Presidentes for life. So even if you pretend that they are evil beyond evil (as I am sure you do), they won’t be ruling us forever. And they don’t decide more than briefly what we do. We the voters of Israel decide who rules and therefore what laws will be in force in the long term. With a peace deal, we would vote for a more moderate government. But with no peace, we need people like Netanyahu and Bennet to lead us.

        Reply to Comment
        • MuslimJew

          “What 78% of the land have we got Brian? Have you taken a look at the map of the Middle East lately? Israel’s land area represents 0.5% of the total land area which the Arabs possess.”

          You really are so very fucking stupid.

          “But even if we look only at historic Palestine. The entire area west of the Jordan represents only 20% of historic Palestine while Eastern Palestine, the land that is Jordan now, represents 80% of historic Palestine. Yes, Brian, prior to 1929, all the maps of that era designated the area that became Jordan as Eastern Palestine.”

          Of course, idiot! And “Western Palestine” was a desert that wasn’t home to a single living creature until the kindly Zionists arrived on boats, just so they could make the desert bloom and give flowers to “Arabs”.

          “WTF, he just goes on repeating himself and chasing his own tail as if I didn’t already respond to this. Well then, here it goes again …”

          You didn’t already respond to this. But please crap out some more hasbara for us.

          “So tell us again, Brian, which side is the greedy side who wants even the small area that Israel is on only for themselves on top of everything else which they have aready got?”

          The side that had never previously set foot in “the land”; the side who in order to get to “the small area” in the first place, had to get on a fucking boat; the side who built a shiny new ghetto for Jews, in Palestine.

          “Netanyahu and Bennet are just the current elected government of Israel.”

          They’re also the unelected government of the Palestinian territories, simpleton.

          Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Thanks for giving me the opportunity to post this, MuslimNonJew

            By what objective criteria was Palestine a solely Arab land?

            ANSWER: By none. Let’s just examine how a people may claim the land to be uniquely theirs and no one else’s:

            1. Recognized sovereignty. On that score, the answer is no. The sovereign power over the land for hundreds of years were first the Ottomans, then the Brits.

            2. By sole occupation of the and. On that score the Arabs fail again because at all times in history, non Arabs, including Jews lived in Palestine. So while the Arabs do have a partial claim, they have no sole claim on the land.

            3. By history? Again it is a no because the Jews too have a long history and association with Palestine. Even longer than the Arabs. So again, the Arabs have no sole claim to the land.

            4. By having private title to the land? The answer is again no because much of the land was crown land and Jews too had private titles to land in Palestine.

            5. By default because Arabs made use of all the lands and cultivated all of it? No, they fail on that score too because in the mid 1800s when the majority of Jews started joining Jews who already lived there for millennia, most of the land was neglected and uncultivated. In fact, there were only about 400,000 people living in the whole of Palestine, a land which today accommodates around 10,000,000 people and there is still room for more.

            6. By claiming majority rule? The answer is again no because different ethnic groups do have the right to claim self determination and independence from the majority. Just like in the case of Muslims in India who claimed independence and formed Pakistan. Or the Muslims of Bosnia who separated from Serbia.

            7. Because there was room only for one state? Such a claim is obviously false. There is room in The land which the Romans renamed from Judea to Palestine, for at least two states. And if need be, even more …

            So the claim of Palestinian Arabs for sole ownership of Palestine, fails on all scores. Unless of course one is biased and favors Arabs over Jews, for whatever reason or ideology …

            Reply to Comment
          • JohnW

            “You really are so very fucking stupid.”

            YOU really are so fucking stupid!

            “Of course, idiot!”

            YOU are the idiot!

            “And “Western Palestine” was a desert that wasn’t home to a single living creature until the kindly Zionists arrived on boats, just so they could make the desert bloom and give flowers to “Arabs”.

            You got it in one.

            “But please crap out some more hasbara for us.”

            As long as you give us some more of YOUR lies. He may as well.

            “The side that had never previously set foot in “the land”;

            You mean, YOU the Arab invaders?

            “the side who in order to get to “the small area” in the first place”

            You mean, YOU the Arab invaders?

            “had to get on a fucking boat;”

            You mean camels?

            “the side who built a shiny new ghetto for Jews, in Palestine.”

            Eat your black little heart out. It just pisses you off doesn’t it?

            “They’re also the unelected government of the Palestinian territories, simpleton.”

            Boo hoo my heart is aching for them. Let them get rid of Hamas, recognise the Jewish state and they won’t need to put up with Netanyahu.

            Reply to Comment
          • MuslimJew

            “You got it in one.”

            And you won’t ever get it, you stupid fucking loon.

            “As long as you give us some more of YOUR lies. He may as well.”

            And what “lies” were those, you retarded robot.

            And thank you for recognizing that he whacks-off while he shits out propaganda for Israel, idiot-tool.

            “You mean, YOU the Arab invaders?”

            I mean the stupid deluded illegal immigrants claiming to be Bible-Jews.

            The “Arabs” were already there, hasbara-monkey.

            “You mean, YOU the Arab invaders?”

            I mean the mock-Hebrew criminals who make shit up then call you a liar.

            The “Arabs” were already there, hasbara-clown.

            “You mean camels?”

            I mean boats, you dolt.

            Camels have more intelligence than you, imbecile.

            Even boats have more intelligence than you, shit for brains.

            “Eat your black little heart out. It just pisses you off doesn’t it?”

            Thank you for admitting that Israel is the new Jew-ghetto in Palestine.

            “Boo hoo my heart is aching for them. Let them get rid of Hamas, recognise the Jewish state and they won’t need to put up with Netanyahu.”

            Thank you for confirming that a Jew-supremicist state continues to exercise effective control over Gaza.

            Go feed your useless “heart” to a camel and try growing a brain, hasbara-moron.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Leave him to me John. This will shut his face up eventually at least …

            That’s why I will repeat what I said before:

            “There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

            It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

            Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.”

            Reply to Comment
          • MuslimJew

            “Leave him to me John. This will shut his face up eventually at least …”

            Good luck with that, hasbara-monkey.

            “That’s why I will repeat what I said before:…”

            That’s why you’ll keep whacking-off and shitting your pants for Israel, so you don’t have to get anything, hasbara-clown.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Feast your eyes on this, potty mouth:

            Leave him to me John. This will shut his face up eventually at least …

            That’s why I will repeat what I said before:

            “There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

            It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

            Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.”

            Reply to Comment
          • MuslimJew

            “Feast your eyes on this, potty mouth:

            Leave him to me John. This will shut his face up eventually at least …”

            Good luck with that, hasbara-monkey

            “That’s why I will repeat what I said before:”

            And that’s why I will repeat what I said before:

            There has to be something stilted about the demented hasbara-clowns who continually whack-off and shit their pants for Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Are you hungry, potty mouth? Here is some more food. Eat this …

            “There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

            It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

            Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.”

            Reply to Comment
        • Brian

          Nonsensical. Bennett’s whole aim in life is to prevent a peace deal, any peace deal short of total capitulation. A sub-aim, about which he brags before the Knesset, is killing Arabs. A real lovely guy. Bennett is a fascist. Don’t bother replying, I know you can’t see it, but Bennett is a Jewish fascist. He would have to behave very differently for a sustained period of time to convince a lot of people otherwise. He’s already led a nighttime brownshirt style torch parade through an Arab neighborhood. I know people in your camp just wink at that and say “oh that naughty Naftali!” but people in my camp take it a lot more seriously. Netanyahu is too American to be an outright fascist but he has the same unredeemable, racist contempt for “the Arab” and the same principle aim: no peace deal of any kind short of near total capitulation.

          Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            “Nonsensical.”

            If you say so. But I say YOUR arguments are nonsensical.

            “Bennett’s whole aim in life is to prevent a peace deal, any peace deal short of total capitulation.”

            Should I be worried about Arab capitulation? That would be a bit like ordinary Brits objecting to German capitulation in WW2. There weren’t too many of those either. Were there Brian?

            “A sub-aim, about which he brags before the Knesset, is killing Arabs.”

            Yes and in his spare time he tears wings off flies. Now let’s see what Hamas brags about shall we? They brag about killing Jews. I take it you have no problems with that Brian?

            “A real lovely guy.”

            What would you do without him Brian? You probably created him so that you can bash Israel. Now how does that allegation feel? Ever heard it before against us to do with Hamas?

            “Bennett is a fascist.”

            And you are not, Brian?

            “Don’t bother replying,”

            Don’t bother telling me what to do little man.

            “I know you can’t see it,”

            I know that you have been desperately trying to derail this discussion from the topic and from the unpalatable facts that I brought up on this thread about the refusal of Abbas to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. That is why you keep on babbling about Bennett.

            “but Bennett is a Jewish fascist.”

            So sue us. We have fascists too. They don’t? Hamas are Islamo Fascists but you are in denial about them.

            “He would have to behave very differently for a sustained period of time to convince a lot of people otherwise. He’s already led a nighttime brownshirt style torch parade through an Arab neighborhood.”

            And? He just reacts to Arab supremacists and Islamofascists. Remember Hamas?, Islamic Jihad? Al Aqsa Brigades et all? The last one is part of the PLO.

            “I know people in your camp just wink at that and say “oh that naughty Naftali!”

            Nope. Right now we need the Naftalis of this world. Not namby pamby appeasers or worse.

            “but people in my camp take it a lot more seriously.”

            But Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Brigades et all, you just brush aside and pretend that they don’t exist. And you make up excuses for Abu Mazen when he refuses to recognize and come to term with our very existence.

            “Netanyahu is too American to be an outright fascist but he has the same unredeemable, racist contempt for “the Arab” and the same principle aim: no peace deal of any kind short of near total capitulation.”

            Lies! But even if true, this conflict existed way before Netanyahu and Bennett were even born. And unfortunately it will exist for a long time after they will be gone. As long as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa and even Abu Mazen will be the types of leaders that the Palestinian Arab people will choose to put up with.

            Reply to Comment
          • Brian

            “Arab capitulation? That would be a bit like ordinary Brits objecting to German capitulation in WW2.”

            Two lies (incessantly peddled) therein embedded: 1. That the Palestinians and their relationship to the land is that of an undifferentiated mass of “Arabs” and “Arabia.” 2. That Abu Mazen = Hitler. LOL! Since when did Hitler serve as Britain’s faithful security coordinator in British-occupied Germany?! LOL! The dishonesty/hasbara never ends!

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Gustav:”Arab capitulation? That would be a bit like ordinary Brits objecting to German capitulation in WW2.”

            Brian:”Two lies (incessantly peddled) therein embedded: 1. That the Palestinians and their relationship to the land is that of an undifferentiated mass of “Arabs” and “Arabia.”

            Not really Brian dear. It is just that your Palestinian Arab masters, as a people, are our enemies. They wish to hurt us. They wish us harm. So we have no objection to those amongst us who wish to force them to capitulate.

            Brian:”2. That Abu Mazen = Hitler. LOL! Since when did Hitler serve as Britain’s faithful security coordinator in British-occupied Germany?! LOL! The dishonesty/hasbara never ends!”

            I don’t really care whether Abu Mazen is Hitler or not. He is our enemy. That I know and that is what I care about.

            Reply to Comment
          • Brian

            “Abu Mazen…is our enemy.”

            In your dreams. The sane rest of the world knows differently.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Gustav:“Abu Mazen…is our enemy.”

            Brian:”In your dreams. The sane rest of the world knows differently.”

            Mummy knows best?

            She, may Brian dear. But the rest of the world are not our Mummy. They are too busy looking out for their own self interest. As they should. And we will look out for ours.

            Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        “Netanyahu prefers a strong Hamas to Palestinian Authority President”

        Give me strength. Not that trope again.

        Is that why Netanyahu made war on Hamas recently? Because he wants a stronger Hamas? Is that why he has a blockade on the Hamas controlled territory since 2007? Because he wants a stronger Hamas?

        Is that why Netanyahu arrested so many of Hamas’s leaders in the West Bank recently? Because he wants a stronger Hamas?

        Are you delusional, Brian?

        Reply to Comment
        • MuslimJew

          “Are you delusional, Brian?”

          No, you are, schizo.

          And thank you for admitting that Gaza is, in fact, Israeli controlled territory.

          Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Ok MuslimJew I get what you are doing. You are trying to dumb down the discussion so that our counter arguments to this article won’t be noticed.

            That’s why I will repeat what I said before:

            “There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

            It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

            Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.”

            Reply to Comment
          • MuslimJew

            “Ok MuslimJew I get what you are doing…”

            No, you really don’t.

            You’re far too busy whacking-off and shitting your pants for Israel to “get” anything.

            Reply to Comment
          • Kiwi

            Stop masturbating in public, MuslimJew or whatever whacko your name is.

            Reply to Comment
          • MuslimJew

            “Stop masturbating in public, MuslimJew or whatever whacko your name is.”

            Why don’t you reel off another list of your symptoms, you schizophrenic tool.

            And then go and fuck yourself, you anti-semitic asshole.

            Reply to Comment
          • Kiwi

            LOL

            This guy is unhinged. Give him his medications urgently.

            Reply to Comment
          • MuslimJew

            “Black is white.

            White is black.

            Night is day.

            Day is night.

            And there are pixies in the back of the garden.”

            “This guy is unhinged. Give him his medications urgently.”

            And there are no “medications” for your condition. Ask the vet to put you to sleep, urgently, hasbara-monkey.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Potty mouth strikes again:

            “There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

            It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

            Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.”

            Reply to Comment
          • MuslimJew

            “Potty mouth strikes again:”

            Hasbara-monkey strikes again.

            There has to be something stilted about the demented hasbara-clowns who continually whack-off and shit their pants for Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            “There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

            It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

            Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.”

            See, potty mouth? This is what happens when your fish mother does not was your dirty little mouth out with soap and water when you speak dirty all time. Now you have to swallow the cod liver oil that I am feeding you every time you open your dirty little mouth …

            Reply to Comment
        • Brian

          This is not even debatable. The Right is open about it. It’s called “managing the conflict.” Keep them not too strong or too weak. Keep them just right–neither the PA nor Hamas to strong or too weak. But keep Hamas as strong or stronger than the PA except for the PAs ability to be our security subcontractor in the occupied territories. But don’t ever give Abbas any real credit for that except begrudgingly. Keep him weak. Netanyahu does not at all want to get rid of Hamas. He wants to keep it like a pruned pet plant. Or pit bull. Or whatever. Avram Burg says this all at greater length and sophistication above.

          Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            “But don’t ever give Abbas any real credit for that except begrudgingly.”

            Well blow me over with a feather. We are not fawning over Abbbas.

            Why not? Because he steadfastly refuses to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Our very existence that is.

            And it does not end there. But I will not talk about the rest of our objections to him. Except to say that he wants our capitulation and surrender to his terms. We don’t like him for that either. Go figure …

            Reply to Comment
    11. Omar Amin von Leers

      I support Abbas refusal to negotiate with the zionist entity under any circumstances. Why should he recognize the zionist entity even with 1949 borders, when we, the international community, of the EU, China, Russia, Iran, Arab states, and even Obama would support the replacement of all Palestine with a Palestinian state. Abbas certialnly cannot be less Palestinian than we are

      Reply to Comment
      • Lina

        So there you have it. To be Palestinian is to refuse to settle for anything less than all of historic Palestine — to wait for the destruction of the only Jewish state so the Arabs can have all of it. So please don’t tell us there is a partner for peace. The status quo is obviously all you can expect while you refuse any compromise that leaves the State of Israel standing. Why should Israeli’s think of anything other than managing the conflict, since the conflict will not end until Israel is destroyed?

        Reply to Comment
      • The Trespasser

        Thanx for proving that there is no reason to negotiate with your worthless kin.

        Reply to Comment
        • JohnW

          Tresspasser

          I could be wrong but I think our Omar is being sarcastic.

          Reply to Comment
          • The Trespasser

            Haven’t noticed any signs of sarcasm.
            However it is of no importance – during last millenia Arabs haven’t done anything for the benefit of the human kind.

            Reply to Comment
        • MuslimJew

          “Thanx for proving that there is no reason to negotiate with your worthless kin.”

          Thanx for proving that you are moronic human filth who believes that it’s possible for the prisoner “to negotiate” with the superintendent of the prison, when the superintendent of the prison is continuing to rape the prisoner in the prison.

          Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Sigh …

            “There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

            It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

            Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.”

            Reply to Comment
          • MuslimJew

            “Sigh …”

            Sigh.

            There has to be something stilted about the demented hasbara-clowns who continually whack-off and shit their pants for Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            For potty mouth:

            “There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

            It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

            Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.”

            Reply to Comment
          • MuslimJew

            “For potty mouth:”

            For hasbara-monkey:

            There has to be something stilted about the demented hasbara-clowns who continually whack-off and shit their pants for Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Potty mouth? Feeding time …

            “There has to be something stilted with the logic of people who insist that Palestine, the umpteenth Muslim state and the 23rd Arab state MUST be recognized. But in the same breath come up with all the excuses in the book why Abbas need not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Even though it is the one and only one Jewish state in the world.

            It comes across as: Arabs/Muslims must be given EVERYTHING their heart desires. The Jews on the other hand deserve NOTHING!

            Well … that isn’t on. It just isn’t on. We have something to say too.”

            By the way, how is your mother, the fish? Nudge nudge wink wink … Know what I mean, potty mouth?

            Reply to Comment
    12. Brian

      David Cameron’s going to abstain in the vote. What’s he so afraid of? What happened to his vaunted moral principles? Could it be he knows justice is on the other side? People on the Right need to go find their missing moral compass. On this issue they’ve either misplaced it or know full well where it is but refuse to look at it.

      Reply to Comment
      • MuslimJew

        “David Cameron’s going to abstain in the vote. What’s he so afraid of?”

        losing campaign funds.

        Reply to Comment
        • JohnW

          What, the Arab oil money is no longer flowing towards Britain?

          Well well well …

          Reply to Comment
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