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It's 2016 — let's say goodbye to Zionism once and for all

Zionism today is the fence that encircles the Jewish people, granting it supremacy over the other people of this land. 

By Noam Rotem

A man holds an Israeli flag during a march in support of the city of Jerusalem at the Western Wall, Jerusalem's Old City on October 22, 2015, following a wave of attacks by Palestinians. (Mendy Hechtman/Flash90)

A man holds an Israeli flag during a march in support of the city of Jerusalem at the Western Wall, Jerusalem’s Old City on October 22, 2015, following a wave of attacks by Palestinians. (Mendy Hechtman/Flash90)

The State of Israel is a Zionist state. All of us graduates of the Israeli educational system know this. Israel’s first prime minister said it, Ehud Barak said it, even Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said it. This declaration can be found in our educational curriculums, and even in the IDF’s educational curriculum. That is all good and well, but nowhere have I been able to find a formal definition for the term “Zionism”put forth by the Israeli government.

Is the goal of Zionism to ensure a Jewish majority in the State of Israel, as former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon claimed? Is Zionism “Israel’s heritage over the generations,” as Netanyahu stated. Or perhaps it is a political goal, as the prime minister argued elsewhere? Or maybe Netanyahu was right when he said that “Zionism is the return to Judaism, which preceded the return to the Jewish state.”

Or maybe Zionism is the “outlook that believes in the Jewish people’s sovereignty in the Land of Israel and the obligations of the believer to take part, all while working toward the common good,” as is written in the IDF’s educational curriculum?

Or perhaps Zionism is actually a race, as members of Knesset Yuri Stern and Esterina Tartman claimed?

Or maybe “the essence of Zionism,” according to Netanyahu, is loyalty to the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state? Or is a Zionist, according to the Education Ministry, a person who believes that we are growing ever closer to redemption?

Even the Jewish Agency, the oldest Zionist establishment in the world, which was founded at the behest of the “father of Zionism,” Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl, admits that, “it is difficult to define Zionism, but in general one could say that Zionism is the love of the Land of Israel, loyalty to the state, and an aspiration to live in it.”

An empty slogan

Zionism began as a national awakening of Jews in Europe, part of the same awakening that was taking place in other nations. The leaders of this national awakening anchored it in religion, thus tying a modern national liberation movement to ancient, theological traditions. Everything was fine until that point: Zionism, like other national liberation movements of its time, called for establishing a nation-state for the Jewish people. The problem began with its implementation, and the pesky problem that the promised land was already populated by hundreds of thousands of people.

The very fact that the Zionists declared that the land belongs to one nation, despite it being populated by another people, is an expression of privilege on the basis of religion and nationality. The very fact that the state is based on Zionism means that it excludes large portions of the population, whether or not they are Jewish — and whether or not they are Zionists.

Ze’ev Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism (the main ideology of the ruling Likud party), understood the problem. Thus he decided that the term “Jewish state” is clear: a Jewish majority. These ideas were not just empty rhetoric — they are quoted still today by the heads of the Israeli government. Only through the establishment of a Jewish majority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean does Zionism have a right to exist.

Prime Minister Netanyahu takes part in the annual day to commemorate Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of the Revisionist Zionist movement, in the Knesset, August 3, 2016. (Kobi GIdeon/GPO)

Prime Minister Netanyahu takes part in the annual day to commemorate Ze’ev Jabotinsky, the founder of the Revisionist Zionist movement, in the Knesset, August 3, 2016. (Kobi GIdeon/GPO)

A state that privileges one nation among its population over another nation is not one based on equality. A state that views some of its citizens as a demographic threat is not a free state. A state that grants rights on the basis of religion is not a democratic state.

Modern Zionism is a nebulous axiom so deeply rooted in Israeli society, that one could mold it into whatever fits the current political moment. Zionism today is the fence that encircles the Jewish people, isolating it, granting it supremacy over the other people of this land.

It is time to recognize that Zionism has become an empty slogan used only to grant Jews rights over non-Jews, and to say goodbye to it forever. Israel’s Zionist citizens’ fear of losing these privileges is, of course, understandable. But it should not be taken into consideration. We cannot continue to allow Zionism to deepen the discrimination against Palestinians.

As long as the Israeli Left continues to depend on Zionism for the sake of fitting into the consensus, it will continue to chase the Right, which only seeks to further entrench discrimination. The Left must reclaim Israeli identity and disconnect it from religious elements. Only then can it present a different vision — one that people can follow. A vision based in humanism, freedom, justice, and equality.

Noam Rotem is an Israeli activist, high-tech executive and blogger at Local Call, where this article was first published in Hebrew. Read it here.

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    COMMENTS

    1. John Allan Donaldson

      Thank you, Noam Rotem: This is the best discussion of Zionism I’ve come across yet. Many of my diaspora Jewish friends continue to consistently illustrate the basis for the long-standing joke about the number of opinions generated when you line up at least one person for a serious debate.

      Reply to Comment
      • Yisrael Tytell

        mar Cohen the mishna states that to be a part of the Jewish people you must have a Jewish mother…see Kiddushin 3:12.
        And when we say “Jewish” we mean Bnai Yisrael, because halachicly neither you not I as Levites are from Judah, and the obligations apply to us from Mate Lewi as well as any Yahudi, but we are not “JEWS”. 😉 (presuming you are a kohain).

        I am NOT a zionist BTW. AND I sympathize with you over the Israeli takeover of the Exile communities leadership.

        Please take this comment to heart as it is given with love. B’ahaba Yisrael, but you must start learning some Halacha in order to understand who is a Jew, and who is not obligated in Mitzwoth.

        Reply to Comment
        • Michael Cohen

          Well, exactly – the idea that Bnei Israel exists today in any “halachic” sense or to the point we should actually bother people over “status” is highly debatable. Also the mishna and gemara make many contradicting statements – such as the child of a jewish mother and a gentile father is a mamzer.

          Reply to Comment
          • Yisrael Tytell

            yes the Talmud ( more than the Mishna) is full of different OPINIONS, not contradictions…

            It’s how we come to the “Sof Haskama” ( final conclusion) that determines Halacha…every opinion ( no matter how different) was included so that no one could say that all opinions ( at the time) were not ruled on…we usualy go by the Rov ( majority) of real -Samuch- Rabbis ( that we do not have today).

            Please find a good daf Yomi course with and you will find the brilliance that is the Talmud.

            If that does not suit you, at l;east look at the instance in the Tanach ( bible) where a man of an Israelite woman, and Egyptian father was detained cursing in the camp….that was one of the main proofs in the Talmud. Yes Israelites still exist, genetically and Halachicly. (I say Israelites, not Just Jews/ Judah, but all tribes like Lewi, Binyamin etc.).

            If you want a goo laugh, when any rabbi questions your “Jewishness” tell him your not Jewish….after his head spins a bit, then tell him “Din K’Yahoodi” Because I am from Matai Lewi…:)

            Reply to Comment
    2. Mark

      We have the same problem in the UK. No one can define Britishness. I believe it’s quite common to many states, and so, it seems, in Israel too.

      Reply to Comment
      • Carmen

        imho, ‘britishness’ doesn’t have an equivalency to zionism, an ethnocentric and religious ideology. And how is ‘britishness’ now a problem?

        Reply to Comment
    3. Yes. But it’s not an “empty slogan”: it’s the ideology that maintains the continuing occupation of all Palestine, the ideology that underlies the fact that for decades now the majority of “Jews” in Palestine have elected the Zionist governments of the occupying “State of Israel”. ZIONISM IS THE IDEOLOGY OF MAINTAINING “JEWISH” SOVEREIGNTY IN PALESTINE& ASSURING PRIVILEGED STATUS TO “JEWS” IN THE “STATE OF ISRAEL” https://www.facebook.com/richard.flantz/posts/10157488433160018

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Greece is the birth place of democracy and right now, nobody argues that modern Greece is not democratic.

        Yet nobody disputes the fact that Greece is the nation state of the Greek people and that the national religion is Greek orthodoxy.

        So what is the difference between the Greek state and the Jewish state exactly? Oh yeh, the author would say. Palestine had a majority Arab population. Of course there is an easy answer to that. The two state solution. One and the only Jewish state in the world and the other an Arab state (the 23rd one). Alternatively, the Arabs of Palestine could do what they had in mind in 1947, they could be part of one of the neighboring Arab countries.

        So, can we have it again, please? Why is the Jewish state unfair when no other similar state is unfair? Why are you people so hung up with Jews only?!

        Reply to Comment
        • Michael Cohen

          Greece is nowhere near as hung up about defining who is or is not a “Greek”- any EU citizen can go and live there too.

          Reply to Comment
        • TB7

          The difference is that Greece and any other democratic state is the state of ALL its citizens. “Jewish” on the other hand is not a citizenship. You can’t become Jewish or a member of the Jewish people by becoming a citizen of Israel.

          And how would you think about the two state solution if the Nonjews of Israel wanted a state of their own in more than 55% of Israel or even more than 78%?

          Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            TB7 🙂 🙂 🙂 !

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Jewish” on the other hand is not a citizenship. You can’t become Jewish or a member of the Jewish people by becoming a citizen of Israel.”

            And you can’t become a Greek Orthodox or a member of the Greek people by becoming a Greek citizen.

            Of course, both in Greece and Israel you can convert to the Greek Orthodox religion or to Judaism respectively if you want to.

            “And how would you think about the two state solution if the Nonjews of Israel wanted a state of their own in more than 55% of Israel or even more than 78%?”

            That old chestnut huh? But look at the map of the Middle East. Israel represents 0.5% of the land mass which Arabs own. But the Arabs MUST have the land of Israel too? A land which was our ancestral land before they stole it from other thieves who stole it from us? And we Jews should have no lands at all? You call that extreme left wing justice?

            Reply to Comment
          • Bernard Bohbot

            TB7,
            According to the Supreme Court of Israel, a ”Jewish and Democratic” state means that Israel belongs to all its citizens but it also gives a ”special key” to diaspora Jews, which is the right to immigrate freely to Israel. By the way, Greece privileges the immigration of ethnic Greeks as well. As for the fact that Israel makes a distinction between citizenship and nationality, it’s actually a good thing. Otherwise, it is impossible to recognize national minorities. Once again, Turkish Greeks are not recognized as members of the Turkish people, they are merely recognized as a religious community. Do you really want Israel to recognize its Palestinian minority merely as Christians or Muslims? Besides, most countries of Eastern Europe – where the founding fathers of Israel came from – maintain a distinction between nationality and citizenship. I’ve never heard anyone calling Slovakia or Romania ”ethnocracies” because their Hungarian minorities are not included in the national community.

            As for the amount of land alloted to the Jews in 1947, let’s not forget that 2/3 of it was part of the Negev desert. But still, in 1937, the Arabs were offered 75% of the British mandate ansd they said no.

            I’m not blaming them for refusing the creation of Israel. From their point of view, this decision was understandable. However, they did not reject the partition of Palestine because they didn’t like the map drawn by the UN.

            Reply to Comment
        • Carmen

          Zionist projection by a classic zionist projector. “Why are you people so hung up with Jews only?!”

          Well, we aren’t. We’re not talking about jews per se, we’re talking about zionists. There’s a huge difference. You don’t have to be a jew to be a zionist, although being a jew AND a zionist comes with all the benefits of a colonizer. Truthfully, “AJew”, the only people who are hung up with ‘jews only’ are the zionists – jewish only state, jewish only courts, jewish only schools, jewish only roads, jewish only marriages, jewish only water, jewish only……………

          Reply to Comment
          • Bernard Bohbot

            Actually, those who insist on preserving the obsolete Ottoman system which gives political power to religious institutions the most, are Palestinian-Israelis. As for the school system, it is not fully segregated. 2% of Arab pupils attend Jewish schools.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            An ignorant person lecturing me about Jews and Zionists. Thank you.

            Now listen to the chief Rabbi of England, Rabbi Sacks who eloquently defines what modern antisemitism is:

            http://www.rabbisacks.org/mutating-virus-understanding-antisemitism/

            “First let me define antisemitism. Not liking Jews is not antisemitism. We all have people we don’t like. That’s OK; that’s human; it isn’t dangerous. Second, criticizing Israel is not antisemitism. I was recently talking to some schoolchildren and they asked me: is criticizing Israel antisemitism? I said No and I explained the difference. I asked them: Do you believe you have a right to criticize the British government? They all put up their hands. Then I asked, Which of you believes that Britain has no right to exist? No one put up their hands. Now you know the difference, I said, and they all did.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Who here has said Israel has no right to exist? Carmen on “Zionist projection”: so true. The flip side being “the p people don’t exist.”

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Anyone who is anti Zionist says that Israel has no right to exist. Or are you ignorant too, Ben?

            “a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            south africa still exists; at one time as an apartheid state, a magical occurrence when european invaders came to a continent full of people who’d been there forever and what did they do? they stole their land and treasure and forced those native Africans into a condition of servitude, with no rights, no voice and their lives were at the whims of the european invaders. That hegemony, that ethnocentric domination, ended. south africa is still south africa; what’s missing is apartheid and racial injustice. I’m sure there are south africans who miss them good ol’ days, but now there’s going on 2 generation of south africans who’ve only known their home as a democratic country and nothing else.

            That has to happen here. ‘israel’ or whatever it will be called, will have muslims, jews, christians and non-affiliated citizens with equal rights for EVERYONE. And the die-hard zionists will either adjust to their new lives as just regular citizens, or leave and not be missed. A new generation will grow up who won’t be schooled with the rhetoric of ‘chosenness’ and that will be a time, sisters and brothers, for rejoicing. Hallelujah!

            So the only thing the right wing is yammering about is what the afrikaaners yammered about – their right to be rule and make miserable the lives of the other.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You really are something. In response to an article demonstrating Zionism today is a nebulous axiom and an empty slogan, you proceed to tell us that all who take issue with the uses to which this nebulous axiom and empty slogan have been put say “Israel has no right to exist.” Show me where Noam Rotem says Israel has no right to exist? Show me where in the comment by Carmen above it is said that Israel has no right to exist?

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Ask Carmen. She clearly says that Israel has no right to exist. The article too clearly says that the Jewish state has no right to exist.

            But Greece which has the Greek Orthodox religion as it’s national religion has the right to exist? Do tell. Does it?

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Show me where in the comment by Carmen above it is said that Israel has no right to exist?”

            Again: Read what Carmen says. She claims that the concept of A Jewish state is a racist concept. Are you saying that Carmen approves of the existence of a racist state?

            Of course Israel is a Jewish state. In fact the UN voted for the creation of A Jewish and an Arab state in 1947. And when that state was created by the Jews of Palestine in 1948, they called it Israel. Get it? Israel is a Jewish state. Just like Greece is a Greek Orthodox state. Yet Carmen and her kind don’t claim that Greece is a racist state. Know why? Because Carmen and her kind don’t believe that unlike anyone else Jews have the right to have their own state. That makes Carmen and her kind racists.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “AJew”, you can turn my words around (old bad habit) to fit any narrative you please. My hopes are that ‘israel’ or whatever it will be called will not only exist but will thrive and become the vibrant democracy it wrongfully calls itself now. My hopes are that all of its people, jew, muslim, christian, non-affiliated, will all be equal citizens. What will end is the zionist regime. jews aren’t the problem, zionism is and zionism doesn’t equal judaism nor does being a jew mean a jew is zionist. You and people with the same mindset as you constantly conflate jew and zionist. That’s not only patently false but a ridiculous assumption as there are plenty of jews who are antizionist and even a few christians who aren’t either. By conflating the two you continue the narrative that antizionism is antisemitic, etc., etc., etc. You’re continuance in this vein is stupid and ridiculous, like a trantrumming child insisting on getting his way. Try holding your breath?

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            ” What will end is the zionist regime”

            This is what Carmen wishes for. So I will remind Carmen again what the definition of Zionism is (she ignored it the first time):

            “a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.”

            Carmen calls this a racist concept. Yet there are literally hundreds of states which have state religions. I have already mentioned Greece. Here are a few more:

            1. Georgia – Georgian Orthodox Church

            2. Bulgaria – The Bulgarian Orthodox Church

            3. England – The Church of England

            4. Iraq – Islam

            5. Pakistan – Islam

            6. Tunisia – Sunni Islam

            7. Sri Lanka – Budhism

            8. Bhutan – Budhism

            I will stop there. Carmen and her cohorts don’t seem to be upset by those hundreds of other states. Only the idea that Jews have their own state and a state religion bothers them. They are the racists.

            PS
            If their complaint would be how minorities are treated, one could accept that. One may still not agree with them but at least one would not describe THEM as racists for being critical. Criticising the actions of a state can be valid. Picking on one entire ethnicity (the Jews) and denying them the same right that other groups take for granted, is RACISM!

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Conflating Zionism with Jews”

            Irrelevant.

            Not all Jews live in Israel nor are all Jews Zionists, although most are. That does not negate the rights of millions of other Jews to live or advocate for a Jewish state.

            Note. Not all Greeks live in Greece nor are all Greeks nationalists. But no one questions the right of the Greek nation state to exist and to call Greece a Greek Orthodox state.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “Conflating zionism with jews – irrevelant”.

            Okay. Thanks for the clarity.

            Forgot to note that the countries on your list are not getting regular billions of dollars in welfare and have been for decades; and just got the largest welfare package in its or it’s sugar daddy’s history. Why is that? The united states is always putting the desires of a foreign entity before the needs of its own citizens. And that’s a well known fact. And a lot of jews in amerikkka are sick of the conflation of zionism with the religion they hold in higher regard than alot of you.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            You could have stopped before you put your list together. So you want the freedom to be as racist as the countries on your list? You already have that freedom Gustav, you demonstrate it on these pages 24/7. You don’t represent the jews, you represent AJew and speak for no one else so put on your big boy pants and speak for yourself, if you can. The countries on your list btw – I’m pretty sure all of the people in those countries are citizens regardless of their religious preference and and are guaranteed the rights and privileges of said countries. FFS the US calls itself a judeochristian country and is full of people who are neither jewish or christian but are citizens of that country and there isn’t a separation from them because of their so-called religion, and the US wasn’t on your ‘list’.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            Just one more thing to you on this thread – I’m not going to argue about what goes on in countries other than the ‘israel’. It’s a distraction, nothing more. All I take away from your posts are childish complaints ‘they do it too! waahh! why can’t we do that?’ ‘that’s racist!!!’ The funding of the zionist enterprise by the united states is at the heart of a lot of anger towards the zionist enterprise and that’s mostly ignored or maybe even ‘irrelevant’ to some people. That’s a convenient thing to ignore and replace it with the handy canard of antisemitism. Antisemitism does exist, of course, as does racism, sexism, homophobia, etc., but to pretend it is the overriding impetus of antizionism or ANY criticism of the zionist enterprise is BS.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEBlaMOmKV4

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “All I take away from your posts are childish complaints ‘they do it too! waahh! why can’t we do that?’ ‘”

            They do what too? Go on Carmen, be honest for once in your life and stop hiding behind canned cliches.

            Of course, honesty is beyond our little racist Carmen. So let me refresh her mind about the topic:

            The topic is about nation states and state religions. Yes, hundreds of states in little old earth call themselves nation states and have one and only official state religion. Israel is ONE of those hundreds of countries but according to racist Carmen, Israel is the only racist one because of that practice. Go figure.

            And now she brought in another excuse for her misguided belief. The fact that America is our sugar daddy that upsets our sensitive little Carmen. But hey Carmen, we are not the only recipients of American help in terms of armaments. Which of course creates jobs for Americans and has other beneficial flow on effects to America (hey we can discuss that on another thread because it is off topic here). And many Americans have no objection to it either. But if Carmen is an American (which she may or may not be, I don’t really know, nor care) then Carmen can just stand as a candidate or support a candidate who would stop this practice. Hey, last I heard, America is a free country and it is democratic. That’s what Carmen should do about it. No point in carping about it to people like me who are not Americans. But I suspect that for people like Carmen, carping and whining is much easier. Everything is someone else’s fault.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “Of course, honesty is beyond our little racist Carmen. So let me refresh her mind about the topic:

            The topic is about nation states and state religions. Yes, hundreds of states in little old earth call themselves nation states and have one and only official state religion. Israel is ONE of those hundreds of countries but according to racist Carmen, Israel is the only racist one because of that practice. Go figure.”

            Gustav – let me remind you that the topic is “Let’s say goodbye to zionism”; goodbye! You’ve hijacked this thread with whataboutery and minimization and have decided to focus on me instead of Ben. I really get a donald tRUMP vibe from you, or maybe that vibe is just the vibe from the average misogynist. Anyway, I no longer live in america; I might even be your neighbor! the united states helps a lot of countries, yes it does and should definitely stop; americans need every penny and there are other countries that actually deserve assistance. the zionist enterprise has mighty deep pockets and doesn’t need to continue to pimp the usa. Supplying arms to an oppressive apartheid enterprise is something the usa should be ashamed of, not bragged about. btw, my name is Carmen, not ‘little racist’ or ‘little’ anything other than Carmen. I know you like to throw your weight around, especially with women, but i cut you a little slack and blame your terrible upbringing. You are the perfect example of the harm a zionist upbringing does. That and the israeli educational system and your hitch in the occupation forces. It must have been fun pushing around Palestinian women and girls and possibly even female IOF grunts and suffering no consequences. Maybe you did more than just push? I can see very easily why you all want to maintain the status quo; it’s not rocket science, it’s not Torah, it’s nothing more than the imagined supremacy and entitlement gleaned from a book you have no interest in (except the parts that entitle you – kind of like tRUMP will accept the election outcome as long as he wins). It’s the hallmark of a racist supremacist ideology, a badge which I feel pretty sure you wear with pride. חבל

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            It’s interesting how huffy Carmen gets when she gets her own medicine and is justifiably called the racist that she is (my other posts explain why).

            Yet she has no problems in throwing the racist epithet at Jews who are Zionists (that’s the majority of Jews, even Jews who don’t choose to live in Israel sympathise with the idea of the Jewish state. And that makes them Zionists).

            She can sure dish it out but she can’t take it. Ah well. It takes all kinds. We are used to petty little haters like Carmen. We will outlive the likes of her too.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “The countries on your list btw – I’m pretty sure all of the people in those countries are citizens regardless of their religious preference and and are guaranteed the rights and privileges of said countries”

            So says Carmen the racist. But can she vouch for some of the Islamic countries which I listed? Countries such as Iraq and Pakistan for instance?

            By the way, the Arabs citizens of Israel (as opposed to those on the West Bank who used to be part of Jordan) have full citizen rights and are treated better in Israel than most Arab countries treat their own citizens.

            Of course our racist little Carmen will be in denial about all that because those facts don’t fit in with how she likes to view this world.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “Of course our racist little Carmen will be in denial about all that because those facts don’t fit in with how she likes to view this world.”

            Gustav, YOU calling me a racist is the pot calling the kettle black but the fact is it makes no nevermind to me. Also, my ‘view of this world’ is mine, you got that right, I don’t pretend or assume to represent anyone but me. btw, I’m not little or the property of +972 or anyone. Your sexist insults speaks volumes to feelings of inferiority, insecurity and anger, much like the republican nominee for president. But these pages aren’t about sexism and misogyny either, just wanted to throw that in and if you or anyone else should decide it’s okay to call me a racist, antisemite or nazi bitch, IOW, anything but Carmen, I will report it to the editors and you’ll find yourself in need of a new pseudonym.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “if you or anyone else should decide it’s okay to call me a racist, antisemite”

            I already did and proved it too in my previous posts so I won’t repeat it here again.

            Threatening to report me? Ok, please do. But it is worth commenting that she has a very thin skin considering that she accuses most Israelis of racism. And of course Arabs are not racists towards Jews/Israelis according to her. According to Carmen, Israelis are responsible for all the calamities on this earth and Arabs are just innocent victims who have done nothing wrong. But she will report me to the editors for calling her racist. Cute!

            Reply to Comment
          • Bernard Bohbot

            Carmen, Adalah is a joke. According to Adalah, the lsraeli flag discriminates against Arab Israelis because it bears a Magen David and the Israeli calendar is discriminatory because the Hebrew calendar is the official calendar of the state. By this reasoning, all Western countries are racist because the Gregorian calendar (a Christian calendar) is their official calendar, and the British flag is racist because of its various crosses. As for the Law of Return, international conventions allow states to privilege the immigration that they want. No wonder why Spain gives a right of return to Sephardic Jews but not to Arabs whose ancestors were expelled from Spain – Sephardic Jews maintained a closer relationship with the Spanish culture. By the way, since 1999, the JNF no longer has the right to reserve its lands to Jews.

            I’m not saying that Israel is perfect, but fighting for equality between Jews and Arabs is not the same as delegitimizing Israel as a Jewish state.

            Reply to Comment
          • baal

            the racist “AJew” is a small-dicked misogynist. like his hreo Bibi and Orange Donald.
            Nevermind, some are losers in the evolution of mankind. It’s just their last war and they know they are going to lose in the long run.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “By the way, the Arabs citizens of Israel (as opposed to those on the West Bank who used to be part of Jordan) have full citizen rights and are treated better in Israel than most Arab countries treat their own citizens.”

            Oh that’s a whopper with cheese. It appears your hasbara skills need a reboot.

            The Adalah database of 50 discriminatory laws in Israel – Mondoweiss
            mondoweiss.net/2015/06/database-discriminatory-israel
            “The most serious discriminations were established early and relate to land control and citizenship. First, the state took over and controlled approximately 93 percent of all lands within the 1949 cease fire lines, and the state has subsequently used this land preferentially for its Jewish majority by making land available to Jews for development, and denying building permits and the ability to develop land to Palestinians. Second, the state established discriminatory preferences about who could immigrate, return to, or stay—in short belong—in the land as a citizen.
            1.1950 law about confiscation of Absentee Landlord Property. This law defines persons who were expelled, fled, or who left the country after November 29, 1947 as “absentee.” Property belonging to “absentees” was placed under the control of the State of Israel with the Custodian for Absentees’ Property. The Absentee Property Law was the main legal instrument used by Israel to take possession of the land belonging to the internal and external Palestinian refugees, and Muslim Waqf properties across the state. This law continues to be used to this day by quasi-governmental agencies in Israel to take over Palestinian properties in East Jerusalem, for example.
            2.1950 Law of Return. This allows every Jewish person to immigrate to Israel and this extends to the children and grandchildren of Jews, as well as their spouses, and the spouses of their children and grandchildren. The flip side of this is that the rights of Palestinians and others to enter the state and become citizens, even if they were born in the area that is now the State of Israel, are extremely restrictive. This discrimination against the non-Jewish minority has been periodically reinforced. For example, the ban on family unification law of 2003 prohibits citizens of Israel from reuniting with Palestinian spouses living in the West Bank or Gaza.
            3.In 1952 the state authorized the World Zionist Organization, the Jewish Agency, and other Zionist bodies founded at the turn of the 20th century to function in Israel as quasi-governmental entities in order to further advance the goals of the Zionist movement, to the detriment of minorities.
            4.The Land Acquisition Law of 1953 transferred the land of 349 Arab towns and villages—approximately 1.2 million dunams in all (~468 square miles)—to the state to be used preferentially for the Jewish majority.
            5.In 1953, the Knesset bestowed governmental authorities on the Jewish National Fund (JNF or Keren Kayemeth LeIsrael) to purchase land for exclusively Jewish use. The state granted financial advantages, including tax relief to facilitate such purchases.
            6.In 1960, the state passed a law which stipulates that the ownership of “Israel lands”—namely the 93% of land under the control of the state, the Jewish National Fund, and the Development Authority—cannot be transferred in any manner.

            Although most Palestinians that remained in 1949 were granted Israeli citizenship, they were subject to martial law until 1966. Travel permits, curfews, administrative detentions, and expulsions were part of life until 1966. Once Palestinians were relieved from martial law, laws were passed to clearly define the primacy of ethnically Jewish Israelis.
            7.In 1969, the state passed a law that gave statutory recognition to cultural and educational institutions, and defined their aims, inter alia, as developing and fulfilling Zionist goals to promote Jewish culture and education at the expense of minority goals.
            8.There is a law mandating that Knesset session must be opened with a reading of portions of Israel’s declaration of independence that emphasizes the exclusive connection of the state of Israel to the Jewish people.
            9.There is a law that bans any political party that denies the existence of Israel as a “Jewish” state. In other words, a party that would advocate equal rights for all citizens of Israel irrespective of ethnicity would not be allowed to enter the Knesset.
            10.There are laws that establish separate educational systems which are then unequally administered.

            More recently, the Knesset has passed laws to defend against efforts to bring the Palestinian minority onto a more equal footing.
            11.In 2011 the Knesset passed a law that empowers hundreds of local Jewish communities to exclude applicants based on ethnicity or religion. The Supreme Court upheld this law in September 2014.
            12.In 2011 the Knesset passed a law prohibiting anyone from calling for a boycott of Israel, its institutions, or any person because of their affiliation with Israel, including the settlements in the occupied territories. The law creates a private right of action for persons targeted by a boycott to sue for damages. As Noam Sheizaf puts it: “You can boycott anything in Israel except the occupation.” This vague law is blatantly aimed at Palestinians who are supportive of the BDS movement—while it allows people like Avigdor Lieberman to call for boycott of Arab owned businesses with impunity. The law was upheld by Israel’s Supreme Court on April 15, 2015.

            As demonstrated by its decision upholding the boycott law, the Supreme Court of Israel has failed to stem the ever rightward tilt of the Israeli polity”.

            **Discrimination against Israeli Arabs still rampant, 10 years on – Haaretz
            http://www.haaretz.com › Opinion

            ***Arab Minority Rights | Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI)
            http://www.acri.org.il/en/category/arab-citizens-of-israel/arab-minority-rights
            “Arab citizens of Israel face entrenched discrimination in all fields of life. In recent years, the prevalent attitude of hostility and mistrust towards Arab citizens has become more pronounced, with large sections of the Israeli public viewing the Arab minority as both a fifth column and a demographic threat. There are glaring socioeconomic differences between Jewish and Arab population groups, particularly with regard to land, urban planning, housing, infrastructure, economic development, and education. Over half of the poor families in Israel are Arab families, and Arab municipalities constitute the poorest municipalities within Israel.”

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            What? All of the above while Israel was (and still is) at a state of war with the Palestinian Arabs who started this war against us nearly 100 years ago? War is not one sided. Tens of thousands of Jewish men women and children were murdered by Palestinian Arabs since 1947 and even before. All in the name of trying to eradicate the Jewish nation state and to use their phrase: “drive the Jews into the sea”.

            But despite all the accusations against us, the Palestinians are horrified at any suggestion that they should become citizens of the shiny new state of Palestine instead of remaining Israeli citizens.

            A while ago, Lieberman suggested a new compromise to solve the impasse caused allegedly by our settlements in the WB. He suggested that in exchange for our settlements, a roughly equivalent portion of Israeli lands within the green line, fertile lands with mostly Arab villages should be transferred to the new Palestinian state together with it’s population and all their assets.

            The Arab citizens of Palestine were outraged. They accused Liberman of racism and insisted that they want to remain Israeli citizens.

            QUESTION: what is going on here? If our treatment of them is so terrible, why do they want to stay as Israeli citizens so desperately? One would have thought they would want to jump at the opportunity to shed all the “misery that we inflict on them”. What is going on here? Something just does not add up.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “What is going on here? Something just does not add up.” This is really, really easy. Even the little thing called the rest of the world has this figured out. What would it take to make you the land of your nativity? Especially if you knew the odds were very great that if you left you’d never be allowed to return. It doesn’t take much ingenuity to see why they won’t leave, no matter how many times the zionist state destroys their homes and livelihoods, maim or kill them. That’s one reason.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            A very short while ago, liberman/lieberman said this:

            Israel’s next Gaza war will be ‘last’ one: Lieberman
            Published: 11:18 GMT, 24 October 2016 | Updated: 11:18 GMT, 24 October 2016

            Defence Minister Avigdor Lieberman said Monday that Israel’s next war with Gaza militants would be their last “because we will completely destroy them,” but added he remains committed to a two-state solution.

            Lieberman, speaking in an interview with Palestinian newspaper Al-Quds, said however that he did not want another war in Gaza, which would be the fourth since 2008.

            The outspoken former foreign minister urged Palestinians to pressure Hamas, the Islamist movement that runs the Gaza Strip, to “stop your crazy policies”.

            He remains committed to a solution that’s been pronounced dead. That makes a lot of sense (none whatsoever). A single state for all people is the only viable option, which of course is the one he or any of netanyahoo’s govt will support. They’ve stolen more and more land, so much so that what’s left for a Palestinian state would resemble swiss cheese. You know anyone who states they are committed to a 2-state solution is f$#%&@! with you and has absolutely no respect for you at all. Thanks for the clarification liberman/lieberman.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “What would it take to make you the land of your nativity? Especially if you knew the odds were very great that if you left you’d never be allowed to return. It doesn’t take much ingenuity to see why they won’t leave”

            A change of tactic by Carmen. She just makes up her own question and answers her own question instead of answering the question that I actually asked.

            The Lieberman plan would not require Arabs to leave the land of their nativity. It would just redraw the borders and change the citizenship of Israeli Arabs in that area to Palestinian citizenship.

            Read my post again (fat chance she will huh? that might require her to have a serious debate but throwing epithets and slogans is much easier for her. Logic? Not so much.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “A change of tactic by Carmen. She just makes up her own question and answers her own question instead of answering the question that I actually asked.”

            “Read my post again (fat chance she will huh? that might require her to have a serious debate but throwing epithets and slogans is much easier for her. Logic? Not so much.”

            I imagine you in an empty room on a tiny stage with a microphone playing to an imaginary audience.

            Can you state your business plainly and with back up (verifiable sources) instead of setting up loopy scenarios about people and then going in for the imaginary kill. Can you make a point without the kitsch?

            To be direct – I’m not interested in anything you have written or write that lacks verifiable sources. In case you didn’t notice, I left you a hint, not the first time either, on how to present your POV. (“I don’t know if that’s what your referring to Gustav, I think it’s preferred to find sources and quote them rather than throw out erroneous factoids for the sake of drama.)

            Is it laziness or just thread destruction with garden variety whataboutery that is hasbara de rigueur or you actually expect anyone reading your post to believe everything you write? I doubt that and don’t think you care at all, your only purpose is distraction, distraction, distraction. Well done. Frank Luntz would be so proud.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Can you state your business plainly and with back up (verifiable sources) instead of setting up loopy scenarios about people and then going in for the imaginary kill. Can you make a point without the kitsch?”

            Ah, is that all Carmen’s problem? All she wants is a reference link because she does not believe my “stories”?

            And here I was thinking that she is such an expert on Israel that she would be aware of the Lieberman plan. But alas she is no expert. The only expertise she has is carping about, demonising and vilifying Israel.

            Of course, she could have googled “the Lieberman plan” and she could have easily found one of many links like this:

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieberman_Plan

            Reply to Comment
          • carmen

            According to jewish virtual library, 24,000 Jews have been killed from 1920 to 2014, and it appears that this number represents mostly soldiers but it’s unclear to say the least. I wonder why. During the same time period and from the same source, over 91,000 Palestinians were killed.
            Total Casualties, Arab-Israeli Conflict | Jewish Virtual Library
            http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/casualtiestotal.html

            I don’t know if that’s what your referring to Gustav, I think it’s preferred to find sources and quote them rather than throw out erroneous factoids for the sake of drama.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            I found that site too. Yes it says that more Palestinians died in the war which the Arabs started and the Palestinians still wage. Is Carmen trying to score points with that? If so, what is her point? That Israel should aim to kill only as many Palestinians as the Palestinians kill Israelis? How quaint. How about if the Arabs stop their war against the Jewish state, sign a peace deal and no more killings by either side?

            And no, it does not say that the vast majority of Israeli deaths were soldiers rather than civilians.

            Of course we know from many sources that Arab terrorism historically targeted mainly Israeli civilians. A bit like 9/11 did as well as Orlando, the Paris attacks and many other Arab acts of terror around various parts of the world.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “Is Carmen trying to score points with that? If so, what is her point? That Israel should aim to kill only as many Palestinians as the Palestinians kill Israelis? How quaint. How about if the Arabs stop their war against the Jewish state, sign a peace deal and no more killings by either side?”

            Who are you talking to – the imaginary lynch mob in your head?

            Reply to Comment
    4. Privileging a national identity is not a problem. What is problematic is to privilege members of a specific nationality. If Israel wants the Jewish identity to prevail within its borders, it’s fine as long as all citizens have equal rights (it’s not because Italy has an Austrian minority that it is required to be a culturally neutral state – and Quebec is unlikely to repeal Bill 101 which privileges the French identity because 8% of its population is anglophone).

      That said, It is true that so far, Israel has failed to give equal treatment to all its citizens. But let’s not forget that Israel is a country at war whose minority identifies with the enemy. Very few country have granted so many rights to a minority that supports the enemy. In Greece for example, a country that is part of the EU, the Turkish minority doesn’t even have the right to identify with the Turkish people. Are Arab MK’s in Israel sued for identifying as Palestinians?

      As for the fact that Israel was established in a land that was already occupied by another people, it is indeed very problematic. But Zionists justified it by saying that the return of the Jews to Palestine was legitimate because they were a landless and persecuted people. This is what was said by the Jewish Agency before the Peel Commission in 1936 and the Anglo-American committee in 1946. In other words, from a (liberal) Zionist standpoint, the partition of Palestine is a redistribution of wealth – so that both peoples (Jews and Arabs) can exercise their self-determination right. If that principle is good for landless peasants, why would it be bad when it comes to landless and persecuted peoples?

      Bernard Bohbot

      Reply to Comment
    5. Yisrael Tytell

      mar Cohen the mishna states that to be a part of the Jewish people you must have a Jewish mother…see Kiddushin 3:12.
      And when we say “Jewish” we mean Bnai Yisrael, because halachicly neither you not I as Levites are from Judah, and the obligations apply to us from Mate Lewi as well as any Yahudi, but we are not “JEWS”. 😉 (presuming you are a kohain).

      I am NOT a zionist BTW. AND I sympathize with you over the Israeli takeover of the Exile communities leadership.

      Please take this comment to heart as it is given with love. B’ahaba Yisrael, but you must start learning some Halacha in order to understand who is a Jew, and who is not obligated in Mitzwoth.

      Reply to Comment
    6. Ben

      “But the Arabs MUST have the land of Israel too?…And we Jews should have no lands at all?” Who said that? The voice you projected? “And we Jews should have no lands at all?” What does it mean? Two states and you kick the other guys out of your state? Or you continue to treat them as second class? One state and you kick the other guys out? Or you continue to treat them as second class? What does it mean? Greeks? Blah, blah, blah. Any irrelevant claptrap to avoid sharing the land. The comparisons to Greeks only emphasizes how different the two situations are, differences studiously ignored here. Classic casuistry.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        “But the Arabs MUST have the land of Israel too?…And we Jews should have no lands at all?” Who said that?”

        All self respecting anti Zionists say exactly that. This article itself says it. It says that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state. It argues that it has to exist as just a state. From there, it is very easy for the anti Jewish staters to demand that all descendants of the Arab refugees should be allowed to “return”. And from there, the state becomes an Arab majority state. And from there, the next obvious step is that it becomes another Arab state with Islam as it’s state religion.

        “Two states and you kick the other guys out of your state?”

        Actually the Jordanians and the Egyptians were the ones who took over the WB and Gaza respectively in 1948. Both could have established a Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967 but they didn’t. Why?

        “Or you continue to treat them as second class?”

        If we treat them as second class while they are at war with us, then how would Ben describe the treatments of ordinary Arabs in most Arab countries? Many of those Arabs are treated worse than we treat our Israeli Arab citizens.

        “Greeks? Blah, blah, blah. Any irrelevant claptrap to avoid sharing the land.”

        Not irrelevant at all. This article pretends that the idea of a nation state of the Jews is racist. If so, then the idea of a Greek nation state where the state religion is Greek Orthodox should also be described as racist. But nobody seems to think so. It seems that the anti Jewish staters reserve the “racist” description for the Jewish state only. Could it be that those people are the actual racists?

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          “The nation state of the Jewish People.” Another nebulous axiom and empty slogan whipped out whenever a right wing person feels need of it. It can mean anything you want it to mean, including Judeo-fascism, but the user can hide behind it and not have to say.. It is not an argument. Read what TB7 says on October 23. “…ALL its citizens….” On the other hand, say out loud “The Nation State of the Italian People.” Or “…German People.” Just roll those phrases off your tongue and it immediately sounds fascistic. Ditto “..the Greek People” lest somebody think I’m cherry picking. “The Nation State of the Greek People.” No one talks like this these days this side of fascism.

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “On the other hand, say out loud “The Nation State of the Italian People.” Or “…German People.” Just roll those phrases off your tongue and it immediately sounds fascistic. Ditto “..the Greek People”

            Really? Yet most Italian, German or Greek people have no problem with that phrase. In fact, the trend is to speak like that more and more. BREXIT is just a start. Watch the BREXIT space, it will be repeated in many other countries in the near future.

            And what about the USA? Not yet. I suspect Trump will lose the election but he has millions of followers. And unless Hillary will be a very good president, Trump, or someone like him will win the election after the next one. Ben will just have to get used to the idea.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “It says that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state. It argues that it has to exist as just a state.” “…Jewish state…nation state of the Jews…”

            You’re just using infinitely expandable/contractable code words that do not rise above nebulous axiom, empty slogan, and passing it off as an argument. It’s propaganda.
            What if I said “Italy has a right to exist as an Italian state, not just as a state.” What does that mean? Genetic Italians get rights and privileges that a Swiss or an Austrian living in northern Italy for five generations does not have? Is there an “Italian Agency” that forbids selling “state land” to “non-Italians” and dispossesses them of their land? Is there an indirectly-government-funded and backed ‘Lehava-Italia’ that militates against miscegenation, and is marriage of Italians to non-Italians forbidden inside Italy? Is Italy occupying Switzerland and itching to ethnic cleanse it? Ditto with Greeks.
            You endlessly throw around “Jewish State” as if it were self-evident what it really means for real people but it is not clear at all and quite dubious and even omnious, and Israel’s behavior and the entire history of humanity should ease no one’s mind on this score.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Perhaps too the Roman Catholic Church gets to forbid marriages in Italy of Catholics to non-Catholics? Does it get to forbid marriages of Catholics to Jews in Italy? Because “Italy has a right to be an Italian/Roman Catholic State not just a state?”

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            And perhaps there is also a “Catholic Agency” that allows “state land” to be sold only to Roman Catholics or those who can prove a correct “Italian lineage.” The questions multiply. What exactly does it mean to say “Italy has a right to exist as an Italian/Catholic state, not just as a state.” Who decides what it means when, where and for whom? Does Italy get to demand recognition of itself as an Italian/Roman Catholic state by its neighbors as well?

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Ben thinks he makes a point by pretending that only in Israel (a country at war with the brethern of the minorities) are there problems about how minorities are treated. He pretends that there is no discrimination against minorities in Italy, Germany and Greece.

            Even if it would be true, even then, If their complaint would be how minorities are treated, one could accept that. One may still not agree with them but at least one would not describe THEM as racists for being critical. Criticising the actions of a state can be valid. Picking on one entire ethnicity (the Jews) and denying them the same right that other groups take for granted, to have their own nation state, is RACISM!

            By the way, a Jewish state is a state where the national language is Hebrew, the state religion is Judaism, they teach Jewish history in schools and it is a country who offers refuge to Jewish refugees should the need arise again. Had the Jewish state of Israel existed in the 1930s, many more Jews would have survived. As it was, very few countries accepted very few Jews who were trying to flee persecution by the then extreme right wing haters of Jews. Nowdays the same hatred against us seems to come against Jews from the extreme left and their Islamic allies.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “a Jewish state is a state where…”

            That’s what you might mean—and what you might mean contains all sorts of problems in itself—the 25% who are non-Jewish get what then?—but it is not what Bennett, Shaked, Eli Dahan and Netanyahu mean or at least no one should assume they mean even the poor concept you promote, and their behavior says otherwise, loudly. They’d take that recognition and run with it to the nearest new, aggressive settlement foundation-pouring, and to the Knesset with new supremacist laws to make. With zest. What safeguards, checks and balances exist? The American Founders would laugh at your assurances that “it will be all right.” They knew better.

            Here’s the thing. You incessantly throw around these code words that do not rise to the level of an argument. You endlessly throw around “Jewish State” as if it were self-evident what it really means and will mean for real people but it is not clear at all and quite dubious and even ominous, and Israel’s behavior and the entire history of humanity should ease no one’s mind on this score.

            Gustav, enough. You have not answered a single question. You are slip, sliding away. When really pressed about the almighty “Jewish State” concept you claim is the center of the universe, the Ur-princip, with respect to the I-P conflict, you simply get evasive or nonsensical. You’re tying this up in endless sidetracks and distractions. To focus on anything but what +972 Magazine’s writers demonstrate so clearly. This is turning into another bad rerun of the Ben and Gustav show. No one wants to watch. But it was revealing while it lasted, and worth it. I finally pinned down the emptiness of your signature “they must recognize the Nation State of the Jewish People” device.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “You endlessly throw around “Jewish State” as if it were self-evident what it really means and will mean for real people but it is not clear at all”

            Here is my answer to Ben’s question AGAIN:

            “a Jewish state is a state where the national language is Hebrew, the state religion is Judaism, they teach Jewish history in schools and it is a country which offers refuge to Jewish refugees should the need arise again. Had the Jewish state of Israel existed in the 1930s, many more Jews would have survived. As it was, very few countries accepted very few Jews who were trying to flee persecution by the then extreme right wing haters of Jews.”

            “and quite dubious and even ominous, and Israel’s behavior and the entire history of humanity should ease no one’s mind on this score.”

            Does the above Paragraph from Ben means what I think Ben means?

            My interpretation is that Ben says that humanity can’t trust Jews of running a Jewish state because Israel has a bad track record. Well Ben? Is that what you meant to say?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “Ben thinks he makes a point by pretending…”

            I clearly and self-evidently pretended no such thing.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Wow. A Trump sympathizer. It so figures. You may think this plays well with your right wing Israeli audience here but believe me the Americans here know what’s what and what this says about your view of things. Based on the latest poll numbers, Trump and his brand of politics is earning America’s contempt. It so figures that a guy who has no problem with Gopsteinist racism and no problem with a High Court judge who lives in an illegal settlement and rules in favor of settlers dispossessing Palestinians would have no problem with a man who refuses to pay contractors (and feels good about it) and says Mexicans are rapists and who says a judge is disqualified from judging him because of his Mexican heritage.

            Most Italians and Germans have no problem with your “The Nation State of” phrasing used in the *way* *you* use it? You took a poll? Are you kidding me? How mired you are in your own assumptions, your own closed off world. Italy’s Northern League and Germany’s NPD think like you do but the NPD has never managed to win the 5% threshold needed for representation in the Bundestag. Northern League never has gotten more than 10%. Northern League certainly does admire Trump. He’s right up their idiotic ally:
            https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.it/20151215/salvini-hails-donald-trump-a-hero-at-party-bash

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Wow a trump sympathiser”

            I cann’t resist responding to this one although my instincts tell me to just ignore him. Ben has gone haywire.

            Where exactly did I say I sympathise with Trump?

            For the record. I neither sympathise with him nor do I not sympathise with him. All I said was to make the observation that nationalism is on the rise everywhere and people like Trump who want to guard national sovereignity have millions of supporters. Is that a lie? Was I wrong to say that? Was I wrong to mention BREXIT too as proof?

            Ben can go ahead and dance for joy that he discovered “a trump supporter” in me and he can ignore my other statement that I am not American and therefore I don’t consider it my business to support one candidate over the other. And that even if I would butt in, it wouldn’t matter one iota because I haven’t got voting rights in America.

            But oh well, I don’t mind if Ben lets his imagination run wild. After all that’s his favorite mode of operation.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “people like Trump who want to guard national sovereignity”

            Oh yeah, that’s all he wants to do, “guard national sovereignty.” Just like you just want to “guard the nation state of the Jews.” Both are of course slippery, infinitely expandable-contractable code words that mean whatever the user at the time wants it to mean (see: Italy, above) and let’s dispense with any concerns regarding who does what when why and where to whom. Don’t worry you can handle it?

            Innocent little you are aw shucks jest neutral on the candidate in America that the neo-Nazzis and the anti-Semites just love–and who openly wink and say ‘it’s ok we love Donald, we know he has to use code words and deny he knows us’….” Yes, Trump has millions of followers– deluded and manipulated and astonishingly ignorant. Trump is in essence a con artist. So is Netanyahu.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Trump has millions of followers– deluded and manipulated and astonishingly ignorant”

            Let’s see. If the polls are right, no less than 40% of American voters will vote for Trump.

            According to Ben, they are all deluded racists who are brainwashed.

            Ben claims to be an American yet he spends all his time at a site which deals entirely with the P-I conflict and Ben tries to tell all and sundry about how evil Israel is and what monsters most Israelis are. Yet common sense would suggest that as an American who depicts 40% of American voters the way Ben depicts them, he would be better advised spending his time doing his bit trying to mend the fences of his own country. Maybe Ben can tell us why is he not doing that instead of obsessing about Israel and Israelis at the exclusion of everything else that is going around him?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Plumping for Trump! Gustav you have never exposed your hard-bitten, hard right, stubborn, narrow, little ignorant mind so fully as in this coming out for Trump and promising us his kind of nationalism is the future you yearn for. That you could wish Trump on the world says it all. You know not what you do and you know not of what you speak. There are the die hard Trumpist crazies and anti-Semites and other assorted poor deluded racists, and there are the Republican loyalists and Never Hillary Crowd holding their nose and voting for him (and they have permanently shamed themselves and stained their party indelibly) but Trump’s favorable ratings are in the historical basement. The Republican Party is undergoing an historic crack up. You haven’t a clue. Here are some of your type, feast on them, buddy:

            http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/politics/donald-trump-voters.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

            My favorite line is: “If you get on social media, he’s got Hillary beat, 3 to 1.”

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Plumping for Trump!”

            Talking about brick walls. Has Ben looked in the mirror lately? Again: I don’t care one way or the other. He is your Baby. You never stop whining about him yet you are here 7 days a week bashing Israel instead of trying to do something about your baby. How F….ed up is that?

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            The people of the united states of america are known as ‘americans’ and it’s not ‘the nation states of the americans’, (although with the current environment in the u.s. i am concerned about the future). All the people that were born there or immigrated and became citizens, people who don’t live there but their parents were born there, are all american citizens, no matter their color or creed. i think the zionist state is in a league of its own, unless you go back in history to apartheid south africa or further back to hitler’s germany and there’s enough similarities to move many holocaust survivors to call out the zionist enterprise and declare ‘not in my name!’. But that must be because holocaust survivors are antisemitic self-hating jews. ya, that’s gotta be it, otherwise it might be true?

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            What can one say to an ignorant lady who is full of hatred like Carmen? Nothing is best. She might accuse me of mysogyny. I better keep quiet.

            Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          And when I say idiotic, I do mean idiotic:
          https://strugglesinitaly.wordpress.com/info-on-italian-politics/en-northern-league-those-weasel-idiots/

          ‘The “village idiot” style is the style chosen by Bossi…”

          The paragraph that begins with that sentence and the two paragraphs following it describe the same thing you are up to. Have at it. You and Bossi and Salvini and Bennett and Gopstein. And Trump. But take it somewhere other than here. This is a respectable publication.

          Reply to Comment
    7. Carmen

      “Ze’ev Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism (the main ideology of the ruling Likud party), understood the problem. Thus he decided that the term “Jewish state” is clear: a Jewish majority. These ideas were not just empty rhetoric — they are quoted still today by the heads of the Israeli government. Only through the establishment of a Jewish majority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean does Zionism have a right to exist.”

      Great article. They all knew (Herzl, Jabotinsky and the other racists/racketeers of that time) what they were embarking on. The so-called ‘creation’ of a ‘jewish state’, which, thanks to the ridiculous ‘balfour declaration’ and enabling by the British, which was superseded with a vengeance by Washington, DC, was and continues to be a criminal enterprise, one that out of necessity involves the entire jewish population of this borderless ‘state’ to be fellow collaborators; the ‘zionist’ educational system for one thing because the brainwashing must start in the gan and the mandatory military service for another, because everyone must get blood on their hands. I think what’s behind a lot of the resistance/refusal/continued ‘war’ is the unrelenting fear combined with megadoses of projection and paranoia that free Palestinians would do to the zionists what has been done to them. The UN would have to actually do their job and have an unprecedented presence here, especially wrt to Al Quds, and the ICC would have to clear their schedules for a time because they’ll be crazy busy. I hope.

      Reply to Comment
    8. Ron Temis

      Actually, it’s 2016, time to get rid of the traitors of +972mag. And Btselem, Shovrim Shtika, New Israel Fund and the rest of the shit that pollutes our country

      Reply to Comment
      • baal

        “Get rid of the shit that pollutes our country”
        Exactly what Hitler said in “Mein Kampf”
        Welcome to the fascist movement, “Ron Temis”

        Reply to Comment
    9. CJ Cameron

      Summary: Zionism was rejected by 19th century religious Jews. israel is a criminal entity similar to America which was built on the corpses of the Native Indians. The difference: the Palestinian Natives are in the MAJORITY between the River and the Sea. So let us have DEMOCRACY. Alas, the “Peace Process” will last as long as there is a “demographic threat”.

      Reply to Comment
    10. AJew

      Oh whatever.

      Did I say in the past that Carmen and her petty hatred of Zionism (the national liberation movement of the Jewish people) is a waste of space? Well? Did I? Yes, of course I did. And I was right.

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    11. Carmen

      “And here I was thinking that she is such an expert on Israel that she would be aware of the Lieberman plan. But alas she is no expert. The only expertise she has is carping about, demonising and vilifying Israel.

      Of course, she could have googled “the Lieberman plan” and she could have easily found one of many links like this:

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieberman_Plan

      I’m not an expert and neither are you. To your second claim about what I could have done – why should I? You’re the one who brought it up with your claims and assertions and no back up. Even if you see yourself as an expert, providing sources lends more credibility, at least initially, to what otherwise reads like nothing more than slogans from lehava or the jewish home. Fin.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Anything to avoid the issues and substance.

        First Carmen complained that I gave no link which verifies the Lieberman plan and she claimed that without it, it might just be my bedtime story.

        Now I provided her a link and she still does not answer the question which I raised. Here it is again:

        If Israel’s treatment of it’s Arab Israeli citizens is as terrible as Carmen claims, how come they don’t jump for joy and accept the Lieberman plan? How come they are so horrified by the plan which would allow them to keep their lands and assets, continue to live where they live now not as Israeli citizens but as citizens of the shiny new democratic Palestine which the Arabs claim they want to create. How come, Carmen?

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    12. Ben

      “how come they don’t jump for joy and accept the Lieberman plan? How come they are so horrified by the plan which would allow them to keep their lands and assets, continue to live where they live now not as Israeli citizens but as citizens of the shiny new democratic Palestine which the Arabs claim they want to create.”

      Contained implicitly in this burbling taunt is every racist, condescending, patronizing, contemptuous, ethnic cleansing assumption you’ve ever sprayed on these pages, Gussie. You treat them as children and treat them all as an undifferentiated mass called “the Arabs” and if anyone here ever went on about “the Jews” in the same way you’d schrei about anti-Semitism. Well, you’ll schrei anyway, it’s a given, but never mind. Did you ever ask the Arab citizens of your country what they might actually want? Instead of assuming you know and and you know what’s best for them and did you ever think that they should have a say in it? Of course not. Lieberman’s plan advocates ceding only the Triangle. Why not other areas? Why stop there? Why would the remaining Arab citizens of Israel consent to the effective lowering of their demographic proportion in the Israel that remains? Did you ever stop to think that the Arab citizens of Israel have a Palestinian-Israeli identity now? Will it inexorably follow from that fact that you then condescend to them to say “so if we treat you so terribly then why…?– as if they are your Negroes who oughta be happy with their lot down on the plantation, I mean, after all who do they think they are? JEWS? White people in the South thought the exact same way years ago.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Ho hum. Ben appoints himself as Carmen’s mouthpiece again.

        But my point still stands. And his accusation that I am a racist reminds me of the old saying:

        “The pot calling the kettle black”.

        Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        “Did you ever ask the Arab citizens of your country what they might actually want?”

        I don’t know who is the “YOU” who Ben is talking about. But we know from surveys (see my reference link) that most of the affected Arabs desperately want to hang on to their Israeli citizenship.

        Does that sound like a people who are so badly mistreated? Wouldn’t a badly mistreated people want to move to be part of the shiny new democratic Palestine instead? Particularly since such a move would not require them to give up any lands, assets and properties?

        That was the point that I made (read my previous posts for greater detail). Like Carmen, Ben now too ignores that point. No problems, it only shows that they have no leg to stand on with their claims.

        Reply to Comment
        • AJew

          Yea baby, they would only need to give up the citizenship of a hated country which allegedly treats them like apartheid South Africa treated it’s black population and in it’s place, they would become citizens of the shiny new free and democratic state of Palestine. No physical move just a change of the border which would place them within the borders of the new Palestinian state which could be created as a consequence of this compromise. They would also keep all their lands, properties and assets.

          Had such an offer been made to us Jews when we were persecuted minorities, we would have grabbed the offer with two hands and we would have blessed the lord for freeing us from the tyrants. So again, something does not add up with the reluctance of the affected Arabs to shed their yoke and embrace freedom.

          My take on it is that my original claim to Carmen was spot on. I said that we treat our Arab Israeli citizens better than most Arab citizens are treated by Arab countries.

          Over and out. Ben once again has managed to put me into a severe case of boredom. Till next time, ok Ben?

          Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Boredom? I’d say all-consuming obsession.

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    13. Average Amereican

      I’ve never seen so many posts by so many people! And these are thoughtful people, even though they disagree. But we’ve either gotten away from the subject of Zionism, or Zionism really is this complex and far-reaching. Maybe we can go by layers of understanding.
      – Ok, top layer, Zionism says the Jewish People have the right to establish a Jewish state in Eretz Israel. Immediately we have three more terms to understand.
      – Jewish State was defined by one of the posters. It means Jewish through and through, only Jewish, including population, language, law, education. One poster allowed it could be all that with a Jewish majority.
      – Jewish People is defined by one poster as having a Jewish mother. So the mother could come from anywhere. Another poster said none of the Jewish People in Israel today are Jews, and so can’t claim Biblical lineage or right, because they are not from Judah.
      – Eretz Israel is defined on Zionist maps as most of the Middle East. Zionism wants a Jewish State covering most of the Middle East. This is much larger than the current state of Israel, and shows the intent to expand was designed into the formation of Israel.
      – Zionism is also heavily based on sympathy for mistreatment of the Jewish People as reason to give them Eretz Israel. The main mistreatment cited, the Holocaust, is enshrined. But as we learn more about it, the downward adjustments of dead, who the dead were, physical capability of killing and disposing of that quantity, the legal farce of the Nuremburg Trials, lessen the sympathy.
      – My conclusion is Zionism is aggressively territorial, racially qualified, no basis or right in religion or lineage or suffering, and its intent is hidden from average Americans.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        “My conclusion is Zionism is aggressively territorial,”

        If true then how come we handed over all of Sinai and dismantled the Jewish settlements in Gaza?

        “racially qualified,

        If true, then conversions to Judaism would be verboten (I deliberately use the word ‘verboten’ to this poster who is a throwback from WWII and who seems to think that he knows his Juden).

        “According to the ministry, 5,671 people successfully converted in 2013, compared to 4,312 in 2012”

        “no basis or right in religion or lineage or suffering,”

        Ok then, how about right through written history and a multitude of archeological findings?

        Reply to Comment
        • Average American

          – You handed over Sinai because you were at a military stalemate with Egypt, you needed to be able to use the Suez which Egypt controlled, you needed Egyptian oil, and you got an Arab state to acknowledge and accept Israel. Gaza? You have not handed over Gaza, you control it still today. Sharon thought Hamas was an inevitability in Gaza and thought it safer to not be there, the communities that were there were easily rebuilt inside Israel, and the withdrawal gave new impetus to West Bank settlement expansion, so Israel lost nothing.
          – Citizenship of Israel requires you to be Jewish. Offering conversion to meet this demand is not an argument in favor of Zionism.
          – History and archeological findings show Jews lived in Israel. Those were Jews who HAD a history of living there. Jews from Europe and Russia are not the same Jews.

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “you needed to be able to use the Suez which Egypt controlled”

            Not really. Between 1948 and 1975 we could not use the Suez canal and we got by just fine. Even since then, Israeli ships don’t rely on the Suez canal.

            “you needed Egyptian oil”

            Sinai had oil and we handed it back. How come? By the way, Egypt is not an oil exporting nation.

            “and you got an Arab state to acknowledge and accept Israel”

            Wow! But we are territorially aggressive? Imagine that. For the sake of being accepted we hand back all of the Sinai with it’s oil fields. Some aggressives we are. A bit amateurish of us isn’t it? Any more self contradictory claims you have?

            “Citizenship of Israel requires you to be Jewish. Offering conversion to meet this demand is not an argument in favor of Zionism.”

            But that wasn’t your original accusation. You accused us of racism. What kind of racists allow “others” to convert? Your kind? Nah, to you, we would always be dirty Jews no matter what we would do. Because to you, once a Jew is always a Jew, right, Average? Just admit it, you know you think like that, don’t ya?

            ” History and archeological findings show Jews lived in Israel. Those were Jews who HAD a history of living there. Jews from Europe and Russia are not the same Jews.”

            Wow, what a revalation. How old would we be had we lived that long?

            Seriously though, all self respecting history books detail the movements of the Jewish people from the time that we were chased out of Judea by the Romans to various parts of Europe. Moreover, genetic studies reveal that most Jews originate from the Middle East.

            I’ll stop here. I have no patience for BS. But feel free to carry on your diatribe Average. You are good for a 😂

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Citizenship of Israel requires you to be Jewish”

            Wow! What apalling ignorance!

            20% of Israel’s citizens are Arabs who are Muslim or Christian.

            Any more outlandish claims you have, Average dear?

            Reply to Comment
          • Average American

            I’ll just respond to your most recent post. I made my previous points best I could.
            Those 20% became citizens mainly by the Residence and Birth sections of the Nationality Law. Other than that, looks like a person has the following options to become a citizen.
            – Law of Return. Not for non-Jews. At the least requires being married to a Jew. Conversion is frowned upon.
            – Naturalization. This first requires permanent residency being granted. That’s rare, since the person must show a very special reason for how he would improve Israel economy or its demographics, and approval is solely in the hands of the Minister of the Interior, who is currently Aryeh Deri, the convicted bribe-taker and follower of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the one who said non-Jews are animals here to serve Jews.
            – That’s it as far as I can tell. Looks like your best bet is to be Jewish.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            I won’t respond anymore to this two bit hater, except to this last bit.

            “Looks like your best bet is to be Jewish”

            And in Greece it looks like your best bet is to be Greek Orthodox.

            Or in Russia it looks like your best bet is to be Russian Orthodox.

            Or in Tunisia it looks like your best bet is to be Sunni Muslim.

            Or in Pakistan it looks like your best bet is to be Muslim.

            Or in Iraq it looks like your best bet is to be Muslim.

            I could go on about hundreds of other countries with which this usual suspect has no problems. He only has problems with Jews. Hey, he even pretends that the Holocaust was just a minor little exaggerated incident and in private he probably says that the Jews deserved it. Oh and in other threads, this little hater came out with the usual accusation that Jews control the world. Mein Kampf anyone? Or would you prefer the protocols of the elders of Zion? This creature probably has multiple copies of each and based on those “master pieces” he claims to know us better than we know ourselves. What a lovely little fellow he is. I won’t be wasting my time on him at least for a little while. But he makes me proud to be Jewish and live a long life, just to annoy him😂

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