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Israeli police have a taser problem

Out of over 180 complaints filed over taser use by police between 2014-2016, only 12 cases were actually investigated. Not a single officer was indicted.

By Sapir Sluzker-Amran

Relatives and members of the Jewish Ethiopian community protest during a march held in memory of Yosef Salamsa, January 4, 2015. Salamsa took his own life after alleged police harassment. This was the first day of a 2-day march from Binyamina town in the north of Israel to Jerusalem.

Relatives and members of the Jewish Ethiopian community protest during a march held in memory of Yosef Salamsa, January 4, 2015. Salamsa was found dead weeks after facing police brutality. This was the first day of a two-day march from Binyamina in northern Israel to Jerusalem. (Activestills.org)

Yosef Salamsa was supposed to celebrate his 25th birthday last month. His tragic death, which took place several months after Israeli police tasseled him without any justification, did not lead to justice. The complaint filed with the Israel Police Investigation Unit was closed, as were dozens of other complaints over taser use, according to statistics [Hebrew] handed over by the Justice Ministry to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI).

In fact, these statistics raise suspicions of severe deficiencies in the Police Investigation Unit, as well as helplessness when it comes to taking the use of tasers seriously. Out of 186 complaints filed over taser use between 2014-2016, only 12 cases were investigated. Not a single indictment was filed. In the majority of cases — nearly 90 percent — the cases were closed without investigation.

Yosef Salamsa, a young Ethiopian-Israeli, was cruelly electrocuted by the police in 2014. According to reports, Salamsa can be heard telling police “have mercy on me, my heart cannot take it,” after he was tasered a number of times, without warning or justification. Testimonies show that Salamsa was bruised, cuffed, and vomiting when he arrived at the police station. This is how his family found him outside the Binyamina police station, before he was given medical treatment. According to the police, Salamsa was given a warning before being based, and was kept outside the police station according to procedures.

Fewer tasers, more oversight

Following the violent arrest, Salamsa filed a complain with the Police Investigation Unit. His family claims that police officers retaliated by coming to their home and threatening to make their life hell. After a number of months, Salamsa’s body was found at a quarry adjacent to Binyamina. The Police Investigation Unit decided to close the case against the officers without any disciplinary action. This despite the testimonies that cast a dark shadow on the police’s conduct, and the suspicion that the police reports that were filed in the wake of the tasing “do not reflect the truth.”

Israeli policemen arrest a Palestinian man after shooting him with a Taser gun in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Ras al Amud, September 27, 2013. Israeli police prevented Palestinian worshipers under the age if 50 to enter the Al-Aqsa Mosque, forcing Palestinians to pray in different locations near checkpoints. Clashes erupted in different neighborhoods in East Jerusalem. (photo: Activestills)

Israeli policemen arrest a Palestinian man after shooting him with a taser in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Ras al-Amud, September 27, 2013. (photo: Activestills)

Back in 2014 the state comptroller report pointed out the severe shortcomings in using tasers. Among other things, the comptroller recommended that the police take steps to ensure safe, supervised usage of tasers. Two years later, it seems that not a thing has changed and the recommendations were never implemented. Meanwhile, the Justice Ministry’s anti-racist initiative established in a number of its own recommendations that there need to be “additional oversight mechanisms, that will ensure tighter supervision and oversight on taser usage, which will decrease its use to the necessary minimum.”

Despite the warning signs, Israeli police have lately decided to arm themselves with another thousand tasers (at the cost of NIS 13 million). In doing so, it has increased the concern that there will be hundreds more cases of unnecessary force, without any authority or oversight, and without the proper supervision.

Today, police procedures allow using tasers not only for self defense or in cases in which lethal force may be used, but also as “part of the authority to carry out an arrest” and as a “means to restrain detainees.” Whether or not the suspect constitutes a threat is irrelevant. The significance is that police have the authority to use tasers even in cases in which an unruly person may cause harm to property but not to others. That is, there is no restriction on using tasers in extreme cases of potential harm to others.

A gun that appears in the first act will likely be fired in the third. This rule of thumb, which is true for theaters, is also relevant to for our reality today. When the system isn’t prepared to oversee and supervise the use of tasers, they will inevitably be used.

Sapir Sluzker-Amran is a blogger for Local Call, where this article was first published in Hebrew. Read it here. This article was written with the help of Oded Ron, an intern with the Association for Civil Rights in Israel.

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    COMMENTS

    1. Mark

      I don’t recall reading any articles actually written by members of the Ethiopian community in IL. How many journalists of Ethiopians are regularly contributing to +972 Mag/Local Call? What are you doing to look for potential contributors?

      Any research on the number of readers from the Ethiopian community?

      Reply to Comment
      • Bruce Gould

        Well, here’s one: “Israel Is A Racist Country, Take It From Me, An Ethiopian Israeli”:

        http://ecadforum.com/2016/06/30/israel-is-a-racist-country-take-it-from-me-an-ethiopian-israeli/

        Israel commits racist crimes. A prominent example is the police violence during the demonstrations by young Ethiopian men and women a year ago. (Police violence, incidentally, isn’t limited to young Ethiopians; many young Arabs encounter it as well.) Another example is the investigation that revealed the pressure on Ethiopian women to receive shots of the birth control hormone Depo-Provera before immigrating.

        Reply to Comment
    2. carmen

      Seems like the tasers only work on people of color. Any incidents of ashkenazis being tasered to death?

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Carmen claimed on another thread that she is Jewish and that she lives in Israel. She also claimed that she came here from America.

        Yet, Carmen uses the Arab name for Jerusalem. She called Jerusalem Al Quds. On another thread, Carmen spoke to a Jewish poster in second person when they were discussing historic Palestine. The other poster referred to historic Palestine as the land which our roots (as Jews) are. Carmen though referred to historic Palestine as “your roots” NOT hers. She also constantly questions whether historic Palestine is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

        Anyone sees a trend in the above? I certainly can. My take on it is that Carmen is a liar. Carmen does not sound to be Jewish at all. And if Carmen lies about that, then what else does Carmen lie about? Does beg the question, doesn’t it?

        And it also begs another question: She seems to have nothing but contempt for Israel, the Jewish state. So why did she come here? Why does she continue to live In Israel? If I would hate a country as much as Carmen seems to hate Israel, I certainly would not choose to live in such a country. What is wrong with Carmen that she chose to come to live in a country she hates so much and she chooses to continue to live here? It just does not add up!!!!!

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          Stand back everybody. Elmer Fudd is about to catch a wabbit!

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Oh Benny’s sense of humor. Isn’t Benny just cute? You are adorable Benny-leh 😝

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Elmer: “Be vewy vewy quiet. I’m hunting Awabs that say they are Jews. Cuz Jews only think certain primitive tribal thoughts so if I hear a so-called Jew say something “leftist” then I know it’s a wascally Awab! Heheheheheh! I’m vewy shmart!”

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Counsellor Benny I presume? 😄

            Too funny. Every time poor old Carmen manages to put her foot in her own mouth and manages to make a fool of herself, Benny shows up, puts on his buffoonish front and acts as her spokesman.

            Guess what, Benny darling, all you’ll manage to do is demonstrate your own stupidity. The thing is, you don’t have to coz you are already renown for it in these parts of the woods (except maybe amongst a few like minded idiots who don’t count anyway, do they, Benny darling?).

            Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        “Seems like the tasers only work on people of color. Any incidents of ashkenazis being tasered to death?”

        Annnnnd Carmen seems to have a thing about Ashkenazis. She smells a bit racist to me.

        I mean, if I would imply that all Arabs are somehow evil. Carmen (and Benny-leh too) would be all over me like a rash and call me “RACIST”!!!!

        But somehow implying that Ashkenazim are evil, seems to be ok with that persona who calls herself Carmen. Could she be the racist one?

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          Bizzare self-righteousness. You can’t answer the question: “Any incidents of Ashkenazis being tasered to death?” But now in your mind Ashkenazim like you become the victims of racism. This would be like a white person in Birmingham in 1963 asking, “Do the police ever turn attack dogs and fire hoses on white demonstrators?” and a white person responding ‘Annnnnd the questioner seems to have a thing about white people. She smells a bit racist to me. I mean, if I would imply that all black people are somehow evil she would be all over me like a rash and call me “RACIST”!!!!’ You see how bizarrely upside down and self righteous you are? From a specific question that hinges on “any” you leap to a formulation that hinges on “all.” That’s called propaganda. That’s called chutzpah. That’s called sneaky. That’s called hermetically sealed bullet proof self righteousness. Your specialty. Catch any wascally Awabs yet, Elmer?

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Benny with his silly analogies again. You have never been to Israel have you?

            If you would have been, then you would know that at least half of Israel’s Jews are NOT Ashkenazim and that Israel is a melting pot in which the differences have significantly blurred between Ashkenazim and Sephardi Jews. Most young Israelis consider themselves Israeli first rather than think of themselves as Ashkenazi or Sephardi. Most families, including my own, have intermarried and consist of both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews. In other words, we consider ourselves as brothers and sisters. Get it Benny-leh? Only anti Israel propagandists are trying their darnest to accentuate differences rather than common ground between Ahkenazim and Sephardim. And bigots like you and Carmen want to believe or deceive others into thinking that there is this thing called the Ashkenazi thing in Israel.

            Back to Carmen’s post. The picture she wants to paint is of an Israel with Ashkenazi overlords and a colored Sephardi underclass, ruled over by merciless Ashkenazim who sport tazers and have police dogs. Utter BS.

            I suspect it is a deliberate propaganda that both you and Carmen are trying to peddle, otherwise, I would invite both of you to visit us (I don’t believe Carmen actually lives in Israel). But anyone else who has been here, knows that most young Israelis, Ashkenazim too, tend to have an olive complexion and are meditarranean looking. And that the ones who are blond or gingi are not walking around with police dogs and tasering coloreds. Get it Benny?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            At the moment they’re busy tasering Arabs and shooting Arab MKs with sponge tip bullets. Listen pal you’re the one who implied the Ashkenazim are a distinct “race.” Moreover, sit down and actually read any column by Orly Noy. Seriously I do wonder if you ever actually read the Magazine. And it looks like you’re leaving the Ethiopian Jews out of your rainbow Jewish coalition. Funny also how you’re suddenly all melting pottish and rainbowy about different shades of Jews but Arab Semites are a different species of humankind altogether to you. “Oh we treat our minorities just fine, trust us, we can handle a Jewish state just fine.” Except when you rip them out of their homes because the Jews you’re moving in are too pure to bear them as neighbors and in the middle of a wide open desert space, millions of dunams of wide open land all around, the Jews just gotta move right on top of the Arabs, who have to be moved. You are kidding nobody, Mr. Rainbow. I don’t need your invitation to visit, I have Israeli friends who already invite me and I’ve spent considerable time in your country. Only you could insult people as you do and then talk about inviting them. How’s your hunt for sinister wascally Awabs posing as Jews going, Gustav the Fake Jew Hunter?

            Reply to Comment
    3. Carmen

      Zionism is nothing but a cult. Most israeli jews, like AJew herself, claim to be atheists and the hypocrisy of an atheist challenging whether or not I’m jewish is ridiculous because judaism is nothing but a set of beliefs, like christianity, islam, buddhism, etc. I actually do live in what is considered israel. I sure don’t want to get in between the ‘Ben and AJew’ show, you two continue to ‘occupy’ this thread as you obviously will. The Der Sturmer quality of AJew’s posts is amusing.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Once again, Carmen displays her ignorance. Poor thing, she does not know the difference between secular and atheist. For her information, a secular person can still believe in God but not in religion. An atheist person on the other hand does not believe in God. Moreover, a secular Jew is a person who feels Jewish because the person considers himself/herself part of the Jewish nation (people).

        Now let’s look at Carmen’s claim about being Jewish:

        She is on the record of saying that she does not believe in religion. That makes her secular.

        She is also on the record of saying that she does not believe in her Jewish roots. That means she does not identify herself as part of the Jewish people.

        She is on the record of identifying with Arab claims about the city of Jerusalem. She seems to feel that Jews have no claims on Jerusalem whatsoever. In other words, Carmen overlooks the historic connection of the Jewish people to Jerusalem.

        Carmen also spends most of her time demonising and vilifying Jewish Israelis while at the same time she whitewashes Arabs.

        So one has to ask the question: what exactly makes Carmen Jewish rather than Arab?

        Last but not least does she live in Israel? One has to be very sceptical about that because she seems to be awfully ignorant about what Israel is really like. That’s the kind way to look at it. But if I am wrong, and she really lives here, one is forced to the conclusion that Carmen just chooses to lie about Israel. Either way, Carmen appears to be a liar. Either she lies about living here or she lies about what is happening here.

        Sorry Carmen dear but I feel compelled to call you out on your attempt to deceive people.

        Reply to Comment
        • carmen

          “But if I am wrong, and she really lives here, one is forced to the conclusion that Carmen just chooses to lie about Israel. Either way, Carmen appears to be a liar. Either she lies about living here or she lies about what is happening here”

          Not ‘if’ you’re wrong sister, you’re completely wrong but like someone else said, you’re obtuse. As far as ‘she lies about what is happening here’ – someone would accuse you of doing exactly that with each of your posts girlfriend.

          Reply to Comment
    4. AJew

      Yep that’s true. I could be the liar about Israel instead of you deary.

      So, how does one resolve this dilemma? Which one of us is the liar about Israel, you or me, Carmen? Let’s see, what was your claim again? You painted an image of Ashkenazi Jews lording it over colored Jews and tazering them. And your bosom buddy and pal also introduced the image Ashkenazi Jews strutting about with police dogs, right?

      I on the other hand I said that Israel has been a melting pot for Ashkenazim and Sephardim Jews and that nowdays, most of us feel Israeli first and only think of our Ashkenazim and Sephardim origins as an afterthought, maybe.

      So who is telling lies? The best way to verify whether the image you paint is a lie or mine, is to visit us. We welcome tourists. Come and see for yourselves. If folks cannot come and visit us, then talk to people who have visited us. Talk to as many people as you can. Preferrably to people who haven’t got an axe to grind either way. In other words, to people who are neutral and are neither pro Israel nor anti Israel (or neither pro Arab or anti Arab). Pick their brains. See if they verify Carmen’s and Ben’s stories about blond Aryan looking Jews lording it over Sephardi Jews with police dogs and tazers. You’ll find that neutral people who visited us would laugh at you if you try to convince them of such an image.

      There is a third way that people can verify reality for themselves. Read books and newspapers which are neither pro Israel or anti Israel. Search the net for articles which talk about Israel from a neutral point of view. Or even if they have a slight anti Israel bias, I don’t care. Just so long as they are not looking at extremist views. You’ll find, deary that none of them accuse Ashkenazi Jews in particular of being Jewish Na…is. At most, they may be critical of Israel in general because of the occupation and the settlements. But Ashkenazi Jews strutting about with dogs and tazering colored Jews for not being Ashkenazim? Nah, deary. That is just a plain old lie. And you know that it is, deary!!!

      Reply to Comment
    5. Carmen

      *Being black and Jewish: Ethiopians bear the brunt of Israeli state …
      http://www.middleeasteye.net/…/ethiopian-jews-racist-israel-orthodox-mizrahi-ashkenazi-co...
      “Here in Israel, the Jewish-Palestinian conflict has been a kind of red flag for everyone.

      The idea that we have an external enemy has injected fear into the public consciousness that has constrained Jewish citizens from real protest, because everything else – economy, health care or other civic issues that every normal society confronts – shrinks into insignificance in comparison to the supposed security threat.

      Despite this, the racism against Mizrahi Jews – or Jews who come from the Middle East and North Africa as opposed to Ashkenazi Jews from Europe – has received more attention in recent years.

      Some activists and intellectuals in Israel now prefer to be known as Arab Jews to defy the notion that the Arab is Israel’s number one enemy and to push back against an identity imposed by the national Ashkenazi narrative that the Arab Jew is against himself, his culture and his heritage – even against his own God.

      The discrimination faced by the Jews of Ethiopia, the only black group to arrive in Israel by virtue of being Jewish, however, has remained largely unheard.”

      **Ethiopian Jews: Not Jewish enough – Al Jazeera English
      http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/…/ethiopian-jews-jewish-150504075644608.htm

      “My blood is good enough for army service, but not good enough after,” shouted a woman at a line of riot police last Thursday in Jerusalem.

      “My brother is in Golani [an army unit] and so was I, but I can’t get a job; I face racism when I want to move into an apartment,” said another man in Tel Aviv on Sunday night.

      They were two voices out of thousands who turned out for two massive, unprecedented, and at times violent, protests against racism and police brutality in Israel.

      In scenes that seemed more reminiscent of police dispersing Palestinian protests in the West Bank, stun grenades and armoured vehicles with water cannons were deployed, along with legions of police wielding truncheons to remove protesters.

      It is a momentous point for Israeli society, to see a community that for years has been a mostly silent and tiny minority (around two percent of the population) coming out in the capital city and Israel’s hi-tech metropolis, to block roads and struggle with the police.”

      ***How long can Israel depend on Mizrahi docile loyalty? Smadar Lavie asks in new book
      See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/mizrahi-loyalty-smadar/#sthash.W8hRh4nJ.dpuf
      In fact, Europeans were considered so superior to Mizrahi that during the Soviet immigration period Soviet citizens could easily bypass the requirement of having five maternal Jewish generations in order to immigrate to Israel. Many who were not Jewish falsified their documents, as was known to the authorities who let them in anyway. Lavie states, “Perhaps the absorption authorities were less concerned with Jewishness than with increasing Israel’s Whiteness, or ‘eugenic capability’” [p.37]. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/mizrahi-loyalty-smadar/#sthash.W8hRh4nJ.dpuf

      Reply to Comment
    6. carmen

      Israel Is a Racist Country. Take It From Me, an Ethiopian Israeli

      Formal equal rights aren’t enough. Equality must be seen on the ground, but on social media we still get ‘Go back to Ethiopia.’
      Revital Iyov | 
      Jun 30, 2016 11:13 AM

      “Israel is one of the most racist countries in the world,” said Tahunia Rubel, an Ethiopian-born Israeli model and actress. The remarks by Rubel, who became famous on the Israeli version of “Big Brother,” were published in the mass-circulation daily Yedioth Ahronoth last weekend.

      Rubel said things like “We have a screwed-up government … and the police are total idiots.” She added: “People in Israel find it strange to see an Ethiopian woman who behaves like an Israeli.” According to a report this week by the Berl Katznelson Foundation, the interview stirred particularly violent posts on social networks.

      That leads me to conclude that I’ve spent 21 years in Israel, the total number of my years on earth, in a country totally different from the one where Israelis so angry at Rubel live. For a moment it was nice to wake up in a parallel universe where Israel and Israeli society aren’t racist, and where people get angry at people who claim they’re racist.

      Of course it’s possible to refuse to acknowledge that the experience of a black woman in a white space isn’t identical to that of a white man in a white space, and to believe that he will never be able to understand my subjective feelings. But why talk about subjective feelings? The pain and anger are a product of institutional practices.

      Israel commits racist crimes. A prominent example is the police violence during the demonstrations by young Ethiopian men and women a year ago. (Police violence, incidentally, isn’t limited to young Ethiopians; many young Arabs encounter it as well.) Another example is the investigation that revealed the pressure on Ethiopian women to receive shots of the birth control hormone Depo-Provera before immigrating.

      Minorities in Israel are accepted into the mainstream only if they refrain from criticism.

      In Israel, women of Ethiopian origin suffer oppression on two fronts: gender-related and race-related. The furious reactions to Rubel’s statement that Israel is a racist country only prove the justice of her claims. They refer to the fact that she’s a woman, an Ethiopian (“Go back to Ethiopia”) and a black person (“a disgusting African”).

      As far as they’re concerned, a black woman in the white mainstream should always be pretty, quiet, polite and filled with gratitude for the right to be a part of the mainstream. If you don’t play along you’ll pay a high price.”

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        What a laugh.

        Al Jazeera, Mondoweiss? As references? One is an Arab media outlet while the other is a renown anti Israel polemicist site. The third one also sounds dubious but in any case when I clicked on it, it turned out to be a dead end.

        I’ll just leave it to honest readers to find slightly more main stream, non polemicist sources not sites dedicated to Israel bashing.

        The links that Carmen produced would be akin to communists quoting Pravda as a reference to prove their anti American tirades during the Soviet era cold war. Or quoting Der Sturmer to prove that Jews are sub human.

        Carmen’s links are an insult to any honest reader’s intelligence. How would she react if I produced a well known ardent pro Zionist source to prove my claims?

        Neutral sources, deary. Do you know what neutral means?

        But I still say. The best idea is to come and visit Israel and see for yourselves. We have nothing to hide. We are by no means a perfect country. We are a country which has been subjected to a low intensity asymmetric warfare by our “dear neighbors”, for nearly 100 years, but despite that, we are not the devils that Carmen and her cohorts are trying to depict us. Hey, what Carmen is doing is a well known tool used by all protagonists in all wars. It is called psychological warfare. Here, read about it:

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_warfare

        To put it bluntly, Carmen sounds to be an Arab woman (or maybe a man) who is engaged in psychological warfare against her enemies, that’s us as in Israel.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          “The links that Carmen produced would be akin to communists quoting Pravda…”

          No, I think the links Carmen quoted are approximately equivalent, in terms of journalistic objectivity and standards, to you quoting the Jerusalem Post. But the whole game of “you quoted from X so it doesn’t count, nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!” is childish.

          The Ethiopian Jews’ protests were in all the papers, not only al-Jazeera. And al-Jazeera is reputable and no more “biased” than the Jerusalem Post is in the opposite direction. The Mondoweiss article is a review by Sylvia Schwarz of a book by a distinguished anthropologist (an Israeli Mizrahi one!), Smadar Lavie. And the third article is by an Ethiopian Jew and published in Haaretz, your country’s most reputable and respected paper, its paper of record.

          Here’s the rest of what Revital Iyov said:

          “The reactions are a perfect illustration of the difficulty facing minorities in Israel. They’re accepted into the mainstream only if they refrain from criticism.
          So you belong to a minority and you want to express criticism? They’ll immediately remind you that you shouldn’t take for granted that you’re here and will suggest that you return to your country of origin. That’s if you’re Ethiopian, of course, because leftist Israel-haters are sent to Berlin regardless of their ethnicity.
          Some people say that in other countries the situation is much worse, so we shouldn’t criticize Israel but only praise it because we’re better than the non-Jews. Well, I don’t think that’s love for one’s country. After all, anyone who loves the country must criticize it, put a mirror in front of it and take steps to change it. Formal equal rights aren’t enough. Equality must be seen on the ground. In life itself. Even on the Internet.
          read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.727935”

          Reply to Comment
    7. AJew

      Are there racists in Israel? Yes, like all countries, Israel has some racists too. Both Jewish and Arab racists.

      Is Israel a racist country? No it isn’t. There are laws against racism.

      Do the most recent migrants, the Ethiopeans, have some legitimate complaints? Yes they do at times although they should also be thankful for what Israel did for them. This is how the BBC sums up the situation:

      “The story of the immigration and absorption of Ethiopian Jews in Israel epitomises the best and the worst of Israeli society.
      True to its Zionist dream of being a haven for Jews, the Jewish state embarked on risky and expensive rescue operations in the 1980s and 1990s. These brought tens of thousands of Jews from remote parts of Ethiopia, who had suffered from religious persecution, famine and civil wars.
      Yet, when they arrived in Israel, these distinctive people faced appalling discrimination, racism and a lack of empathy for their hardships in Ethiopia and during their journey to Israel.

      Moreover, this was exacerbated by a mixture of bureaucratic insensitivity and incompetence.”

      And yes, Ethiopeans have been desperate enough to demonstrate about their complaints. And yes, Ethiopean demonstrators have been curbed by the police. And yes, there have been unfortunate outcomes.

      But no, the police are not solely Ashkenazim. Many are sephardim and I bet there are some Ethiopean migrants who became policemen.

      And no, by and large the police are not tazer happy, nor do they run around with police dogs and indiscriminately hurt colored people as Carmen suggested. Are some policemen rogues at times? No more so than police anywhere in the world. Do bad things happen from time to time? Yes unfortunately.

      As r how we treat the Arabs of the West Bank? The same Arab population which made war on us for the last 100 years (even before the occupation)and who have been brainwashed to hate our guts and who have been acting out their hatred against us. Well, we don’t kiss their feet either. We give as good as we get.

      Reply to Comment
    8. carmen

      My former neighbor in Kfar Saba is an Ethiopia jew who arrived with her husband and 9 children in the 1990s. Not long after arriving, she had to go to bituach leumi and while waiting outside was spit on by a russian immigrant and called ‘cushi’ (nigger, for the uninformed). She wasn’t tasered by police but humiliated in a very public way. Each of her children and her husband have experienced varying degrees of racism since arrival, with the rationalization being ‘if it’s so bad here, go back to ethiopia’.

      Every ethiopian I have gotten to know, every ‘black’ person I know could write a book about the racism they experience at every level here. They aren’t leaving because the status quo has to change.

      Reply to Comment
    9. Carmen

      “Mainstream” enough for even the most discriminating (no pun intended)newsies

      ***www.timesofisrael.com › Israel Inside
      Separate, but not equal treatment plagues Israel’s Ethiopian Jews,
      Special programs targeting immigrant community have led to segregation, not integration, say academics and activists
      By Renee Ghert-Zand May 5, 2015, 3:59 am

      ***Why Ethiopian Jews Face Increasing Discrimination and Police …
      http://www.newsweek.com/…/why-ethiopian-jews-israel-face-discrimination-racism-police-
      Sep 26, 2016 Sep 26, 2016 – In Ethiopia, 9000 Jews are waiting to move to Israel—but it may not be the … demonstration against police brutality directed against the Ethiopian Jewish … The demo turned violent in the early evening as clashes broke out …

      ***Ethiopian Israelis clash with police as anti-racism rally turns violent …
      https://www.theguardian.com › World › Israel
      May 3, 2015 – Tensions boil over in central Tel Aviv on Sunday after footage emerged last week of an Ethiopian Israeli in an army uniform being beaten by police

      ***Locking Israel’s Ethiopian Problem Away Behind Bars – Opinion …
      forward.com/opinion/192756/locking-israel-s-ethiopian-problem-away-behind-b/
      Feb 17, 2014 – The Israeli army uses prison as a means of punishment for numerous … group, or placing higher numbers in better units where incarceration rates are lower. …. we should be ashamed of the way we treat non-Ashkenazi Jews.

      ***Racism in Israel – Wikipedia
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel
      **Racism was also alleged in 2009, in a case where school children of Ethiopian ancestry were denied admission into three semi-private religious schools in the town of Petah Tikva. An Israeli government official criticised the Petah Tikva Municipality and the semi-private Haredi schools, saying “This concerns not only the three schools that have, for a long time, been deceiving the entire educational system. For years, racism has developed here undeterred”. Shas spiritual leader Ovadia Yosef threatened to fire any school principal from Shas’s school system who refused to receive Ethiopian students. The Israeli Education Ministry decided to pull the funding from the Lamerhav, Da’at Mevinim and Darkei Noam schools, the three semi-private institutions that refused to accept the students. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke out against the rejection of Ethiopian children, calling it “a moral terror attack.”[197][198]
      Depo Provera prescription controversy

      In 2010, Israel was accused of a “sterilization policy” aimed towards Ethiopian Jews, for allowing the prescription of contraceptive drugs like Depo-Provera to the community.[201][202] They stated that the Israeli government deliberately gives female Ethiopian Jews long-lasting contraceptive drugs like Depo-Provera.[201] Jewish agencies involved in immigration said that Ethiopian women were offered different types of contraceptives and that “all of them participated voluntarily in family planning”.[201] Dr. Yifat Bitton, a member of the Israeli Anti-Discrimination Legal Center “Tmura” said that 60 percent of the women receiving this contraceptive are Ethiopian Jews, while Ethiopians made up only 1 percent of population and “the gap here is just impossible to reconcile in any logical manner that would somehow resist the claims of racism”.[201] Professor Zvi Bentwich, an immunologist and human rights activist from Tel-Aviv, rejected the claim and said there’s no ground to suspect a negative official policy towards Ethiopian Jews.[201]”

      Reply to Comment
    10. carmen

      For more ‘mainstream’ media coverage of israeli racism wrt ethiopians, google ‘israeli racism toward ethiopian jews’ or similar and for the more discriminating (no pun intended) among 972 readers, well, unfortunately, there are hundreds of pages of articles on this topic. 🙁

      Reply to Comment
    11. AJew

      Nothing in any mainstream media links suggests that there are Ashkenazi policemen rampaging through the streets looking for colored people to tazer.

      This was Carmen’s tidbit which I objected to:

      “Seems like the tasers only work on people of color. Any incidents of ashkenazis being tasered to death?”

      Moreover, policemen are not only Ashkenazim, there are also policemen who are of Sephardi background, of Ethiopean background, of Druze background and even Arab policemen.

      When there are riots, things can and do go wrong for whoever the rioters are. That is true everywhere else in the world.

      As a general rule, the people who riot, are the ones who feel disadvantaged and who have problems. Right now, the Ethiopean Jews fall into that category because they are the latest immigrants and there are teething problems with their absorption. Problems that WILL be resolved in good time as were solved with all previous waves of immigrants to Israel.

      Some of those problems ARE to do with small minded people who unthinkingly express petty racist sentiments and practice discrimination. Other difficulties arise because of beurocratic bungles (as the BBC wrote). Again, as abominable as it is, such phenomena are not unique to Israel. All countries with large migrant intakes have experienced similar phenomana or variations of it. Not fair, I agree, but unfortunately it is a fact of life. A fact of life which will be corrected in time.

      Of course, for the enemies of the Jewish state, such phenomena are an opportunity to exaggerate wrongs and to pretend that the idea of a Jewish state is an abomination. People like Ben and Carmen who engage in daily propaganda against Israel want to exaggerate everything bad that happens in Israel. They are here, every day, 7 days a week peddling their BS. But they won’t succeed. The good people in Israel will prevail. We will prevail in our war against those who want to eliminate the Jewish state. And we will prevail in making this a good country for all our law abiding citizens, be they Jewish Sephardim, Ashkenazim, Mizrahim or Ethiopeans as well as all our non Jewish citizens who are willing to live with us in peace and respect our laws.

      Reply to Comment
    12. carmen

      From me:“Seems like the tasers only work on people of color. Any incidents of ashkenazis being tasered to death?”

      No answer of course, but lots of ziosplainin’ and endless nonsense, arguments to topics not even discussed, all to discredit this questioner.

      Of course there is racism all over the world. But this isn’t USA today, BBC or the Times of India, is it?

      Reply to Comment
    13. carmen

      “Is Israel a racist country? No it isn’t. There are laws against racism.”

      So because ‘there are laws against racism’ that means ‘israel’ isn’t a racist country? No, it doesn’t mean that at all. There are laws against murder too, but they happens. There are laws against rape, but they happen, a lot.

      Reply to Comment
    14. Ben

      “Is Israel a racist country? No it isn’t. There are laws against racism.”

      This from an apologist for the country that just committed the outrageously racist actions at Umm el-Hiran. This from an apologist for a country that was crudely racist towards President Obama. My Israeli friends tell me plenty about how Israelis, routinely, commonly, talk about Obama behind closed doors and even with the door open. The crudest racism. The Russian Israelis are the worst but it is not limited to them.

      Reply to Comment
    15. AJew

      “So because ‘there are laws against racism’ that means ‘israel’ isn’t a racist country? No, it doesn’t mean that at all. There are laws against murder too, but they happens. There are laws against rape, but they happen, a lot.”

      Wow. There you have it folks.

      Israel is a racist country because some people are racists, as some people are racists in every place on this earth.

      So according to Carmen’s logic, every country is a racist country. Every country is a murderous country and every country is a rapist country. But will we hear Carmen say that? Nah! She insists that only Israel is a racist country. Only Israel is a murderous country. Only Israel is a rapist country.

      How do we know? Because she is here riling only against the Jewish country. She has a thing against Ashkenazim in particular, as if only Ashkenazim (all?) are racists, murderous rapists (not just some Ashkenazim). And what do we hear from Carmen when someone like me tries to put things in perspective? We get more tirades and more examples of the bad but not the good.

      So what am I saying? Am I saying that one is not allowed to criticise the Jewish state when it warrants criticism? I am not saying that at all. By all means. Criticise us. Hey we even criticise us. But don’t pretend that everything bad is solely the Jewish country’s fault. That our Arab neighbors are entirely faultless, blameless innocents. And that nothing good ever happens to Jews and non Jews in the Jewish state. Coz when people pretend that, as Carmen and Ben seem to pretend that the Jewish state is all bad, then people like me come out and tell them bluntly that they are peddling an agenda on behalf of the enemies of the Jewish state.

      Reply to Comment
    16. carmen

      From me:“Seems like the tasers only work on people of color. Any incidents of ashkenazis being tasered to death?”

      No answer of course, but lots of ziosplainin’ and endless nonsense, arguments to topics not even discussed, all to discredit this questioner.

      Of course there is racism all over the world. But this isn’t USA today, BBC or the Times of India, is it?”

      AJew: “Coz when people pretend that, as Carmen and Ben seem to pretend that the Jewish state is all bad, then people like me come out and tell them bluntly that they are peddling an agenda on behalf of the enemies of the Jewish state”

      People like you? No sister dear, no one else does your particular dance. Your agenda is simply to refute any and all criticisms of the zionist state any way that you can, which is most to lie and change the narrative. My question above was straightforward. I didn’t expect an answer to that question, but you tra-la-la’d along and came up with whataboutery:
      “Carmen claimed on another thread she’s Jewish and lives in israel” and then this doozey –
      “Back to Carmen’s post. The picture she wants to paint is of an Israel with Ashkenazi overlords and a colored Sephardi underclass, ruled over by merciless Ashkenazim who sport tazers and have police dogs. Utter BS.”

      The picture I want to paint? I meant what I said and nothing more. You’ve chosen to be paint your own picture, create a scenario based on your lies and attempt to hold me accountable to the lies you create.

      You’ve really got a fixation with shoving your garbage into people’s mouths. Who do you think you are – Kellyanne Conway or Pam Gellar?

      As far as “aaaand Carmen seems to have a thing about Ashkenazis” – If I had a ‘thing’ about them, this would be an entirely different conversation.

      Reply to Comment
    17. AJew

      “My Israeli friends tell me plenty about how Israelis, routinely, commonly, talk about Obama behind closed doors and even with the door open.”

      Oh yeh, Benny? Now tell me. Do your Israeli friends know what every Israeli says behind closed or even open doors? They must be very special people if they know what EVERY Israeli person says and thinks.

      Or could it be that your “Israeli friends” are like you? They like to generalise about people? You do know that such a trait tends to be kinda racist too?

      I mean, anyone who says something like:

      All Muslims are $&@..

      Or all Arabs are &@/-

      You’d tend to call them Islamophobic or racists, right Benny? Why don’t you apply the same standard to yourself, Benny?

      Why is it Hallal to say or imply that all Israelis are … (fill in) the dots…

      Or Why is it Hallal to say or imply that all Ashkenazim are … (fill in) the dots…

      Hmmmmmmm, Benny?

      Reply to Comment
    18. carmen

      Most people can tell when they’re hurting their cause instead of helping it. To continue to argue to an empty room about a topic manufactured to discredit someone else, who said one thing. But an entirely different subject has been “painted” by a loon for the express purpose of creating a diversion by the continuation of a scenario entirely fabricated by said loon, who chose to turn a simple, straightforward question into something inappropriate and offensive, i.e., http://www.mgsrvr.com/957782e634e5c4aa04877a2b21d8f0c2.jpeg, when it would have been best to say nothing.

      Reply to Comment
    19. AJew

      Empty room, darling? Are YOU empty? Okey dokey. I am glad you admit it.

      As for your silly question below, I already answered it more than once but it seems you are somewhat obtuse. Either that, or you think you are actually making a pertinent point but you ain’t:

      “No answer of course, but lots of ziosplainin’ and endless nonsense, arguments to topics not even discussed, all to discredit this questioner.”

      I have said that bad things can and unfortunately does happen to those who riot. Not just in Israel but anywhere in the world. And I said that right now, the latest wave of immigrants are disadvantaged and they perceive that they have a cause to riot. Etc…

      What does that imply to a thinking person? It implies that if you don’t feel disadvantaged, you don’t riot. And if you don’t riot, you are much less likely to be tazered.

      Now that’s it deary. I won’t repeat myself again just because you think you are making a point. I already demonstrated that unlike you, I am not a one eyed automaton who peddles a singular agenda of racist vilification (towards the Jewish state and Ashkenazim). I admitted that Israel has issues. I said that we are not perfect. But I dared to suggest that “our dear neighbors” are also much less then perfect. And that pisses you to no end, doesn’t it darling? It pisses you simply because you are an enemy agent who is here, to transparently peddle the agenda of our enemies, to vilify and demonize the Jewish state and you don’t like being called on it.

      Reply to Comment
    20. AJew

      So, tell me Carmen darling: do you think that France is a racist country?

      http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/175622/jewish-teen-wearing-yarmulke-tasered-in-paris

      “In the third disturbing incident from French capital this week, JTA reports that a Jewish teenager was attacked with an electric Taser by a group of teens at Paris’ Place de la République square yesterday. One of the teens, all of whom fled after a passerby intervened, was reportedly also carrying a club. The victim was wearing a yarmulke and tzitzit when he was targeted—just as the two teens chased by a man with an ax last Wednesday, as well as the two teens sprayed with tear gas this weekend, were wearing yarmulkes.”

      I don’t think France is a racist country. France too has laws against racism. But France does have racists. Now I could do the same thing with Arab countries but unfortunately, some of those Arab countries don’t even have anti racism laws. So what does that make them, deary?

      Reply to Comment
    21. AJew

      Is America a racist country Carmen?

      http://www.nbcnews.com/id/10069852/ns/msnbc-the_abrams_report/t/van-zandt-comparing-la-paris-riots/

      King was stopped by the LAPD after driving at speeds of up to 115 miles per hour. King, with previous arrests for DWI, was thought to be under the influence of PCP. King resisted arrest and was stunned with two 50,000-volt Tasers.

      You would say yes to that, wouldn’t you darling? You have already said very bad things about America too. But you are wrong. America is not a racist country. It has laws against racism. And it had a black president for 8 years. Yet America has racists. It too is imperfect. As is France as is Israel. Oh and dare I say it without you accusing me of Zio babble (a racist comment in itself), dare I say it? Our Arab enemies are not perfect either.

      Reply to Comment
    22. carmen

      The ‘state of israel’ is a racist borderless entity. Zionism is racist. HaTikva is racist. The majority of israelis are racist and perfectly fine with the ethnocentric policies and laws of the zionist state and when polled specifically, 79% of jews felt jews should get preferential treatment (Pew Research Center, March 2016).

      The u.s. is a racist misogynist country by its inception – the constitution and laws were written by and for white men and white men only. Slavery was abolished but racism wasn’t. The KKK, alt-right, neo-nazis, etc., testify to that fact. The indigenous people of the land called the united states live in poverty after being decimated by disease and murder by european invaders and then ‘american’ settlers/military forces and are still 2nd class citizens of their land.

      France? After the US, far right says 2017 will be the year Europe wakes up
      The Guardian‎ – 2 days ago

      Marine Le Pen claims the ‘Anglo Saxon world is waking up’
      The Independent‎

      Reply to Comment
    23. Ben

      A France dominated by the National Front, or an America dominated by White Supremacist organizations would be as racist as Israel.

      Israel policy myth #2: Separation between Jews and Arabs is not racist
      By Roi Maor |Published June 23, 2011

      Racist attitudes against Arabs are widespread in Israel. Numerous official policies segregate and separate Jews from Palestinians, with a vastly discriminatory effect and intent. Justifications alluding to security needs, or alleging that separation is based on citizenship rather than ethnic origin, do not withstand close scrutiny.
      https://www.972mag.com/israel-policy-myth-2-separation-is-not-racist/

      Reply to Comment
    24. carmen

      My post was posted so will try again.

      Is the u.s. a racist country? From its inception, yes it is. Changes have been made, but may all be reversed with the realization of the wet dream of the KKK and its bastard cousing, alt-right; an openly racist president and administration.

      Is france a racist country? If Marie LePen gets her dream fulfilled, the racism she spouts will be law.

      Is israel a racist country? Yes, from the beginning too. It wasn’t something that happened over time either. It was racist from the get go. The ‘nation-state of the jewish people’, the ethnocentric state which openly and as policy discriminates against its +20% non-jewish citizens, and has imprisoned millions of palestinians in Gaza and the west bank, having stolen all the land that was meant for a future palestinian state. Of course all the talk about an independent palestinian state has been so much smoke blown up so many u.s. administrations but to be fair, it was a mutual smoke screen – the u.s. was playing the peace process game since Truman, shame on the u.s.

      Reply to Comment
      • carmen

        Should have read My post was not posted, so will try again.

        Cousin, not cousing.

        Reply to Comment
    25. AJew

      Are Benny and Carmen racists?

      Of course they are. One, (Carmen carries on about Ashkenazim and calls all Israelis racists) and Benny? Well Benny is a bigot from way back. On another thread, he called Judaism a tribal exclusionist religion. That was a comment about ALL Jews, not just Israel. And he carried on in the same vein on this thread. He has alleged that ALL Israelis say the same (racist) things behind closed or even open doors. That is an example of a clear racist generalisation. It fits the UN’s very own definition of racism which says that vilification of entire ethnic, religious, racial, national groups is racist.

      To sum up. Both Ben and Carmen are on this thread, spouting racism and they peddle the agenda of the enemies of the Jewish state. It is their contribution to psychological warfare, on behalf of the Arabs, against the Jewish state. They are enemy agents. And at least one of them, Carmen, hates America as much as she hates Israel. Benny probably does too but he seems to be a bit more circumspect than his friend Carmen, who is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

      Reply to Comment
    26. AJew

      Arabs hostile to Israeli Jews. Arabs trying to destroy the state of the Jewish people, a state that the UN voted to create. Yes UN resolution 181 used the words JEWISH STATE as part of UN Resolution 181. But Arabs who wanted to and still do want to replace the Jewish state with an Arab state, that is not racist according to our dynamic duo: Carmen and Benny. But Jewish Israelis reacting to Arab hostility is racist.

      That attitude is in itself racist. Carmen and Benny want to deny the Jewish people’s right to self determination. Therefore Carmen and Benny are racists.

      Reply to Comment
    27. carmen

      Nothing is going to change your mind or mine. Settlements are ILLEGAL and the reason there is still turmoil in this region is the GoI’s refusal to accept this fact which is known by everyone. They have made the possibility of a viable palestinian state impossible, their goal of course. Everyone knows it, even you and the 2SS is dead, murdered by the GoI. A real democratic state that recognizes, respects and enforces the equal rights of all it’s citizens and protection of all of its citizens is the only solution. Not a jewish state, not a palestinian state, not a christian state, but a state for jews, muslims and christians with equal rights for all.

      Reply to Comment
    28. AJew

      The two state solution was never offered by the Arabs. And it still isn’t being offered.

      In 1947, the Arabs rioted and murdered Jews indiscriminately in response to UN resolution 181. Then when they lost the ensuing war, the Arabs resorted to terrorism to try and make life so miserable for Jewish Israelis that they would leave. After they realised that such tactics would not work, they tried deception. They pretended to accept Israel but they still refuse to recognise it as a Jewish state (as per UN resolution 181). Moreover, they demand that Israel should allow the “return” of millions of descendants of refugees ad a condition for signing a peace deal. If Israel would accept that, then the Arabs would realise their old aim of turning Israel into an Arab country without firing a shot.

      Despite all that historic hostility by the Arabs against the Jewish state, Carmen and Ben expect Israel to be “nice to the Arabs” while at the same time the Arabs have not been nice to the Jewish people of Israel. And because Israel does not listen to their stupid demands, they label Israel as a racist country.

      Well, excuse me dears, but since when has it become fashionable to expect one side (Israel) to be nice to the side (the Arabs) which has been making war on it for the last 100 years and still refuses even to negotiate using silly excuses like “the settlements”. Duh, the purpose of negotiations would be to resolve differences such as for example “the settlements”. Without a resolution of differences through negotiations, everything will get worse, not better. Ah, but I forgot. That is exactly what the Arabs want. They want things to get worse becsuse they think that if things get worse, they would be more able to influence the world to apply pressure on Israel to give in. But they are wrong. This tactic of theirs will fail too. The only thing that will ever work for them is to change their ways. They need to give up their old habit of trying to bring about the destruction of the Jewish state.

      Whatever happened to that old favorite slogan of progressives? They used to goad us by saying to us: One negotiates a peace deal with enemies not with friends when we baulked at the idea of negotiating with Hamas who openly declared (and still do) that their aim is the destruction of the Jewish state.

      How come the same “progressives” are not using the same slogan to goad Abbas’s PLO into negotiating with us, without setting preconditions?

      How come? How come? How come? Because they are hypocrites. And on this thread, Benny and Carmen represent the so called “progressives”. So they are the hypocrites.

      Reply to Comment
    29. carmen

      Palestinians are being killed on a daily basis, men, women, girls and boys. If someone is stealing from you, would you allow it and show them where the good stuff is or would you fight to keep what’s yours? You clowns expect the palestinians to do what no one in their right mind or even your mind would ever do yourself – surrender, give up your dreams, look down, be quiet, lick the boots of your overseers and mostly DIE. And this plan has made you all insane. Kharma really is a bitch, ain’t it?

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Oh Carmen you’d be breaking my heart if I wouldn’t be aware what you the Palestinian Arabs tried to do to us and have done to us.

        You people tried to grab ALL the land for yourselves and you told us to swim back to Europe. You have been culling us for nearly 100 years. And you are complaining that we are not nice to you? Who would be in our place? You wanna take everything from us? So we too grab everything we can. You wanna play a no holds barred game with no rules? Ok then we too can play by our rules. You chose this method of dealing with each other and now you are complaining?

        Change your ways! And we will change our ways too.

        Reply to Comment
    30. carmen

      Spoken by someone who has never suffered a day in her privileged life. Holocaust survivors – they know what suffering is and many of them have spoken against the zionist-cult state. They’re familiar with suffering, hatred, racism, torture and murder by a ethnosupremacist cult and see the same thing when they look here. Your arrogance speaks volumes – a life of privilege and an existence solely at the expense of others. You talk about a cull? Yes; the families who knowingly put their children in danger when move onto stolen palestinian land. The zionist idol requires regular sacrifices though, doesn’t it. And the settlers are happy to provide them. If only they loved their children more than they hated palestinians.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        Stolen land? What a joker.

        You once asked me to prove that historic Palestine is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people. I pointed to written history. I pointed to ubiqutous archeological findings (such as the dead sea scrolls). I pointed to the Bible, I even pointed to the holy book of Muslim Arabs (the Quran). Nothing convinced you. Coz you just don’t want to be convinced. You just want to ASSERT that EVERYTHING, all of historic Palestine is your land, Arab land. But it is not.

        Now, seeing that you have been playing such a hard ball with me about proving things, I will do the same to YOU. You claim that the “settlements” have been built on stolen lands. But in order for something to be stolen from someone, that someone has to own it. So prove to me that you the Arabs own the lands on which we built “settlements”.

        Let’s start with the Jewish wuarter of East Jerusalem and Gush Etzion. Prove to me, darling, that you, the Arab people own those lands.

        Do you know what proof is? As opposed to using emotive arguments about priviliged me, and poor you?

        Reply to Comment
    31. AJew

      “Holocaust survivors – they know what suffering is and many of them have spoken against the zionist-cult state.”

      Really, darling? How many? Not many at all. Another one of your assertions.

      Oh and holocaust survivors are overwhelmingly Ashkenazim. I thought you implied that ALL Ashkenazim are privileged? What happened to that assertion of yours?

      ANSWER: It suits your propaganda based argument to ignore it at this point. As for consistency? Who cares about that? Right darling? You bank on the fact that the average Joe who might read this exchange will overlook that minor detail. Except that more than likely, not too many will read this. It is just a tussle between you and me. And you are talking to someone who knows his facts and unlike you, uses logic. Something which is alien to you.

      Reply to Comment
      • carmen

        “Oh and holocaust survivors are overwhelmingly Ashkenazim. I thought you implied that ALL Ashkenazim are privileged? What happened to that assertion of yours?”
        You do realize princess, that the holocaust occurred on the european continent?
        http://cdn4.teehunter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/holy2.png

        So much for your thinking process. You need to do something about that oral fixation.

        Reply to Comment
    32. carmen

      You can’t stick with what I wrote because it’s true. You twist and turn words inside out and upside down and expect me to play along. Play with yourself princess. What was, is no longer. I’m not going another round of this. I’ve said what I needed to say; you’ll twist it and add to it to suit your purposes because you’ve got a thing about putting your words into my mouth. You really have no sense of decorum or boundaries princess. I have the same privilege as you, there is no ‘poor me’, only pitiful you.

      Reply to Comment
    33. AJew

      In other words, no, you can’t prove that places like the Jewish quarter of East Jerusalem and Gush Etzion are stolen lands. Can you darling?

      What a surprise!
      (Sarcasm).

      Reply to Comment
    34. Ben

      Hmmm. I used, or quoted Edo who used, the modifiers “routinely, commonly” and “widespread.” AJew, unsurprisingly, snuck in the word “ALL” to replace those modifiers.

      Judaism as the Israeli state rabbinate and allied government ministers conceive, structure and practice it, is unquestionably tribal and exclusionary with ethnosupremacist logic and aims to it. (If you deny this I can start quoting them. We’ll start with Minister Eli Ben Dahan, but not just him.) As are the practices of the state exemplified on this page in this article and in several articles preceding and following this article this week. And this version of state Judaism is enforced by a state whose Prime Minister insists, vehemently, that he is the spokesman for all the Jews of all the world, and that Israel is “the Jewish state.” And countless right wing commenters have come on here and said that American Jews from liberal streams of Judaism are “not real Jews.” But AJew doesn’t want to face that. He’d rather play silly, distracting games. He thinks indicting Ben and Carmen as “racists” will distract from all that.

      Does AJew think that MK Ayman Odeh being shot by a bullet while protesting is “racist” of MK Odeh? And that Justice Minister Shaked criticizing Odeh for being shot is not racist? He hasn’t said—notice how quiet he is on the actual subjects of this blog—he hasn’t said whether he thinks that the forcible removal of Bedouin from their homes of sixty years, in a wide open desert space with land all around, for no other reasons than that the Jews moving in can’t bear to have impure non-Jews live near them and because an Arab-free Negev region is thought necessary to “reclaiming the land for Zionism,” is racist. (But the settlers of Amona have to move? The tragedy! The outrage! The unbearable pain! Pay them $36,000,000!) He hasn’t said boo about whether he thinks this travesty of justice is racist. But he’s full of opinions about the “racism “of all of us.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        As regards the terms “exclusive” or “exclusionary” (not exclusionist”) that I use, I quote no less an authority than Noam Scheizaf:

        ‘…However, even if Netanyahu’s demand was genuine and not part of his (non)negotiation strategy, it should be opposed – not just by the Palestinians but also by Israelis. Because a “Jewish” state – as opposed to a state whose culture is Jewish or is “a national homeland” for Jews – will always be a racist, discriminatory state…. Most mainstream Zionists would argue that “a Jewish State” is no different than a German state or an Italian state, or any similar nation-state…. But this argument is only half true…. Jewish identity cannot and does not wish to be inclusive (in my mind, that’s part of the beauty of Judaism – that it never tried to convert the non-believers). A state that sees itself as “a Jewish State” is inherently an exclusive state, because a person cannot become Palestinian-Jewish or Muslim-Jewish….’
        http://972mag.com/why-i-oppose-recognizing-israel-as-a-jewish-state/78751/

        Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        BS Benny and you know it’s BS. In your post of January 23, you called Israel a racist country and this is how you tried to justify your assertion:

        “My Israeli friends tell me plenty about how Israelis, routinely, commonly, talk about Obama behind closed doors and even with the door open. The crudest racism. The Russian Israelis are the worst but it is not limited to them.”

        Clearly you were generalising. Using such generalisations, one could only conclude that ALL countries are racist countries because racists exist in ALL countries. Ever looked at Palestinian Arab society? Ever looked at Arab countries? I won’t labor my point. By mentioning even western countries like France and America even in peaceful times let alone when they too were fighting existential wars. Yes, Israel is still facing an existential war because it’s very right to exist is still being questioned be significant sections of Palestinian Arabs and their allies such as Hezbollah and Iran. Not to mention other numerous political allies such as extreme left wingers and other assorted Israel haters.

        Reply to Comment
    35. AJew

      ….. Oops, a typo, I meant January 1 of my second link. NOT January 21 of my second link.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        Two thoughts:
        1. On 24th January above you initiated an extensive rehash and mixed walloping doses of ad hominem and slander into the hash it so I clarified it and added relevant substance about the Prime Minister’s concept of himself and his state as leader of all Jews everywhere on Earth, and clarified that routine, commonly and widespread do not mean all, entire, etc.
        2. I also asked you new questions on topic for this thread. About Odeh, Shaked, the Bedouin at Umm el-Hiran, and the settlers at Amona. Not a rehash but a weaving in of fresh argument. You are mum.

        Reply to Comment
    36. AJew

      Ahhhh you poor thing Benny. I am guilty of slandering you, am I? But you are not guilty of slandering an entire people. You called the Jewish state, a state which has been at war since even before it became a state you called us a racist state. We have never known a day of peace because we have always been under threat from our neighbors. But despite that, we built a thriving successful country which can become a model of how to integrate disparate groups of people, Ashkenazim, Sephardim and Mizrahi Jews gathered from the four corners of the world into one nation. The nation of Israel. You called us a racist state. Why? Just because it is a Jewish state. And you are complaining about being slandered?

      Am I keeping mum about your “when will you stop beating your wife” type questions? Maybe. But no more so than you keeping mum about our success stories. I am a “glass half full” type person. While YOU are not even willing to acknowledge that “the glass is half empty” you pretend that it is ALL empty.

      I could go on about it but I won’t. The only two things that I’ll say again.

      1. The integration of Ethiopean Jews is a work in progress. Yes, there are set backs and yes there are teething problems, but it too will turn into a success story.

      2. The Arab citizens of Israel, 20% of our population, have better lives than most Arabs in Arab countries. Quite a few of them acknowledge this fact. Some, proudly and openly. Some a bit more discretely by their actions. Yet some others, the more militant nationalistic ones who side with their brethern who have been fighting a 100 year war against us, some of those, like you, fight a propaganda war against us. They too only want to talk about the bad things, never about the good things. And like you, according to them, everything, everything, everything bad is the Jews fault! Nothing, nothing, nothing is the Arabs fault!

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        “everything, everything, everything bad is the Jews fault! Nothing, nothing, nothing is the Arabs fault!”

        Of course, I never said this. It isn’t even my language, as you know: “the Jews” and “the Arabs.”

        “ which can become a model of how to integrate disparate groups of people”

        What’s the recipe here? A fierce ethnoreligious tribalism fueling a colonial project fueling a simmering conflict with “the enemy” that buries internal conflicts? Yeh, that’s what the world needs more of.

        Gustav I do not get it. Early Zionist successes give you extra credit to abuse your non-Jewish citizens in the present? To abuse them not inadvertently but according to a deliberate, premeditated, meticulously planned, government ethnic cleansing operation? In a way you would never ever treat Jews? And these non-Jews completely not any “security” threat? It doesn’t add up. This is the eternal Israeli “you should be two-sided not one-sided about this” tactic at its worst. Extra credit to commit this travesty of justice in Umm el-Hiran? Extra credit to commit the home demolitions and shoving people by hook and by crook off their lands in the West Bank and illegally annexed East Jerusalem lands? And all this presupposes your sanitized version of your early history from which you are deriving this extra credit, this scholarship award, this special dispensation to do things in the present.

        Enough with the idea that an intelligent response to these +972 articles is to say they are not “fair and balanced” and are “one sided,” as if there is some strange kind of magic balancing device you can pull out that “neutralizes,” like adding a base to an acid, the main point of the topic at hand. “Umm el-Hiran? Who cares, did you know we are a model for how to integrate Jews with Jews?”

        Reply to Comment
    37. ANew

      “everything, everything, everything bad is the Jews fault! Nothing, nothing, nothing is the Arabs fault!”

      “Of course, I never said this. It isn’t even my language, as you know: “the Jews” and “the Arabs.”

      When someone (you in this case) always insists on talking ONLY about Israeli wrong doings. And dismisses EVERY accusation against Palestinian Arabs then that someone (you in this case) says exactly what you deny in the above quote.

      And the rest of your BS in your previous post just serves as further proof that you are doing more of the same.

      Benny, I don’t get it. Why are you denying it? Denying it is a form of admission of shame. So, if you are ashamed of doing it, then why not stop doing it? Why not discuss this complex conflict more rationally? In a less biased way and more constructively? Why not factor in Arab wrong doings into the discussion too? Why not try to get the Arab side off it’s high horse and start compromising? You do know that unless that happens, peace is impossible to achieve? You do know that Benny, I hope? Otherwise, you are just part of the problem, not part of the solution!!!

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        Gustav why is this medicine only for me and not you? (When someone (you in this case) always insists on talking ONLY about Arab wrong doings. And dismisses EVERY accusation against Israeli Jews….) But even this is beside the point and ensnares you and me in a misleading tactic. All of these wrongs on both sides are already factored in to the discussion. They are the starting point not the destination. What needs to be done now follows on, not behind, this factoring. Your persistent wish is to go back to “The Hundred Years War” or “The 5000 years War” and say that what “they” did back then somehow makes up for what “we” are doing now. But it doesn’t. My starting point has all your grievances factored in. What you edit out is all the grievances they have that counterbalance your grievances because you can only see what “they” did and not what “we” did. Your history of coming in to the land and of Zionism is sterilized and purified of what “we” did. But your history of what the Palestinians did acutely tallies in every loving, dirty detail and every one-eyed perspective. This is the bias of yours that you never have and never will admit to. And it is the unsound basis for all your grievances. You place “the Arabs” on an uncompromising high horse but it is a false propaganda image. Already built in to the API and the well-known parameters for a decent 2SS is great compromise on their part and very little on your part unless you conceive of giving up “Greater Israel from River to Sea” and giving up for example the 84.6% of Ma’aleh Adumim that is stolen private land, as your “compromise.” That’s a rigged “compromise.” A propaganda ploy.

        Reply to Comment
    38. AJew

      “My starting point has all your grievances factored in”

      Really? Sounds to me more like your starting point is: let’s forget about YOUR (Israel’s) grievances and just repeat, ad nauseam, Arab grievances.

      As for my bias. Just go back and read some of my posts on this thread. I admitted that we are not perfection personified. I admitted to mistakes that we made. Which is not something that you ever do with your Arabs.

      So under the circumstances I do quite well in the face of your robotic perpetual tirade against Israel. Or would you expect me too to amplify your propaganda? Expect all you like. I won’t oblige!!!

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        ​I do not think that you ever admit to anything substantive or decisive at all. Or anything at all relevant to what +972 publishes. When’s the last time you commented on an article versus a comment? It’s all around the edges as if it were minor not central and intrinsic, or in the vein of pleading that what is not minor is “understandable.” You haven’t said one word about Umm el-Hiran. Because like the first domino in a chain, when that tips over it knocks over other claims about how Noam is wrong about a “Jewish state” and about how the occupation is about security, etc.

        But more to the point it gets back to this tacit “extra credit” claiming thing you do. Again, this forum is not a contest about who can say how many good and bad things about the Arabs and the Jews and we tally it up in some kind of specious balancing enterprise, at the end of which, always, always, the occupation in the present is justified. The whole premise is specious. It’s just an exercise in distraction, the old Israeli “let’s be even-handed” game, when nothing is even-handed whatsoever. Implicit in my positions on everything is that the Palestinians have made lots of mistakes. But that people like Bennett and Netanyahu want to pretend that Arafat of the 1970s and Abu Nidal stalk the earth and that the Palestinians have not evolved and nothing has changed. That is false. (Or if not that, it’s..Iran! The ultimate Bennett-Netanyahu bullshit: “Iran is an important issue but preventing another Iran in the heart of Judea and Samaria is no less important.”) Or that the occupation has not morphed into a blatant colonial land grab. Nor is your accounting of past Israeli wrongs ever honest. It is sanitized. But I don’t constantly demand you produce the unsanitized version. Nor are all the reactions and counter-reactions made by Israelis and Palestinians simple mistakes or non-mistakes, they are a tragic cycle. Noam, complex thinker, makes that clear, from a strategic standpoint. So what I decipher in your incessant attempts to make the truth of these +972 articles and supporting comments and their palatability to you depend on whether it is spiced it up with frequent admissions of past mistakes by Arabs is a tactical attempt to distract with an illusion of “even-handedness,” with “even-handedness” being inserted as the operative principle. It is a deception and an illusion.

        I have to say that “robotic perpetual tirade” describes not anything I do at all but does rather aptly describe your incessant attacks on me.

        Reply to Comment
    39. AJew

      “API and the well-known parameters for a decent 2SS is great compromise on their part”

      Really?!

      Some compromise. The API includes a clause which insists that all the descendants of Palestinian Arab refugees have an individual right to decide to live in Israel proper. That would be potentially millions of Palestinian Arabs deciding that they want to be Israeli citizens and live in Israel. People who were raised on a diet of hatred for the Jewish state. In the meanwhile, the API does not even utter a word about a million Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

      That is your decent API compromise, Benny?! That alone sums up your one eyed attitude!

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        ​You know very well this is a starting negotiating position not a final status accord bottom line item. Classic Israeli excuse making and feigned helplessness. You guys alway say want direct negotiations between the parties. It is incumbent on you to negotiate this. You better make a good deal and not throw contemptuous table crumbs and say “they must lower their expectations” as is your habit.

        At the same time, lurking inside your indignant protestations is an unexamined, “normalized” assumption articulated by Edo Konrad:

        “…What good is the moral outrage over Trump and Spencer when American Jews overwhelmingly support Trump-like policies in Israel? How can it be that a Muslim ban in the U.S. is seen as a threat to the democratic ideals so many American Jews cherish, while too many Muslims in Israel is interpreted as a threat to the Jewish people? American Jews will have to make a choice: maintaining a double standard or fighting for equality for everybody — and that means everybody.”
        https://972mag.com/welcome-to-the-jewish-american-dissonance/124823/

        Reply to Comment
    40. AJew

      You know what Benny? You are right about calling it a game. But YOU are the one who is playing it. Not me.

      Your game is to forget everything that Arabs did and are still doing. Things that led to what we did and are doing. And yes it goes both ways. But there is always that inconvenient thing which you just want to forget. It is called CAUSE and EFFECT. Try and comprehend what it is. Nothing happens in isolation.

      But the game that you insist on playing, Benny, is this:

      …Israel did this… Israel does that… Israel is evil…. Israel is racist … etc

      Never mind about what led to this and why Israel behaves the way it does, the Arabs have nothing to do with it according to you… and besides, these are different Arabs… they have evolved… again according to you…
      The only thing is that they haven’t. They haven’t evolved. And you just don’t accept that no matter how often it is pointed out to you. You robotically reject it and monotonically point at”eeeevil racist apartheid Israel”… again according to you. Because obviously if Israel does not behave like an angel, in the face of hatred, hostility and intransigence, then Israel is the devil incarnate. Nothing in between according to you. The Arabs evolved into angels and we are devils.

      One could call it Benny’s cartoon world justifiably. Coz that’s what you do, Benny.

      Reply to Comment
    41. AJew

      You say, the Arabs have evolved, Benny?

      But the reality is that we have tweedle dee and tweedle dum. We have Hamas and the PLO. Do I need to dven talk about Hamas, Benny? They certainly have not evolved.

      As for the PLO, they HAVE evolved. But not for the better. They have just adopted sneakier tactics but they are still playing the same old zero sum game. How does anyone even half intelligent know? We know because they still REFUSE, yes, POINT BLANK refuse to negotiate with Israel without attempting to set preconditions. They want to dictate terms of surrender for Israel. They don’t really want to negotiate. So there is no progress. And there has not been progress for years. No thanks to Israel because at one stage Israel even agreed to Abbas’s precondition. Netanyahu froze settlements building for 10 months. But did Abbas negotiate during that time? Nah. He played shy for nine and a half months and only sat down to negotiate in the last two weeks before the freeze came to an end. Then he demanded a further freeze. Of course he did not get one because his game playing was transparent.

      Reply to Comment
    42. AJew

      “You know very well this is a starting negotiating position not a final status accord bottom line item”

      Reaaaaaallllly, Benny?

      It may be a starting negotiating position but it certainly hasn’t even begun. See my previous post. It hasn’t begun because Abbas has not been willing to negotiate. See my previous post.

      Stop pretending that Israel is the one who has been refusing to negotiate. Otherwise, you are stooping to lying and falsifying history.

      Reply to Comment
    43. Ben

      You’re arguing with yourself now. I’m done. Pleased to let it stand.

      Reply to Comment
    44. AJew

      “You’re arguing with yourself now. I’m done. Pleased to let it stand.”

      I agree. You are a nobody, Benny-leh. We Jews have a saying:

      “You are not a mentch”

      Do you know what it means?

      PS
      Sorry it has come to this Benny-leh but you asked for it. I don’t like one eyed haters who demonise us. Call it my weakness.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        “We Jews have a saying:
        “You are not a mentch”
        Do you know what it means?”

        This is the kind of thing where I realize you have no idea who I am or where I’m coming from. And have no idea how you sound. And style yourself world spokesman for “we Jews.” And style a fixed, false and in fact doggedly “one eyed” belief of yours into “my weakness.” Ol’ Uncle Gussie and his charming “weakness.” As if wantonly slandering others were something like a weakness for pastries or schnapps.

        The importance of this is that it highlights how much the Israeli right wing defense of the indefensible turns on ad hominem, slander and vilification.

        Just as Trump and Bannon are trying to turn “the lyin’ press” into the opposition party, you try to turn +972 Magazine into “the enemy,” +972 Magazine which is reporting on the ground where you, an Israeli you say, never tread, and know little and want to know less.

        Reply to Comment
    45. AJew

      Telling half truth is a form of lying.

      Telling only half the story is a form of propaganda.

      Omitting history, pertinent facts and context is both a form of lying and propaganda.

      Constantly talking about the gripes, complaints and woes of one side only while neglecting to mention their own contribution to the status quo amounts to vilification of the other side.

      That’s what you and your cronies do, Benny. So you and your cronies are part of the problem not part of the solution. Because:

      1. You intentionally mislead.

      2. You radicalise to others too (as a reaction to your stridency). I know because I know what effect you are having on me. I am neither a dove nor was I a radical but since I have been participating in discussions here, I have definitiley been radicalised. Even you noticed it Benny and you commented on it. You can thank yourself for it for what it is worth. But don’t take total credit. Others like you helped too.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        I’m spirited not strident. +972’s articles are by and large models of calm non-stridency and have an unerring focus on human rights on both sides. I’m impressed with their humanity, urbanity, and perspicacity. Ditto for Peace Now. If you find Peace Now’s answers here

        http://peacenow.org/page.php?name=they-say-we-say#/

        radical or strident then I don’t know what to tell you or to make you happier. You can breathlessly say “I know what effect you are having on me” but in my positions I am not distinguishable in a significant way from +972 and Peace Now.

        Again you strive to say that past mistakes and crimes by one side (but, in this accounting, sanitized of the mistakes and crimes by the other side) justifies a brutal occupation and transparent illegal land grab in the present; and you strive to implant “even-handedness” as a false “balancing” concept allowing you to commit egregious human rights and legal violations in the present.

        You seem to never give updates the idea that you are owed the settlements for some vagaries of past offenses (again–with one sided accounting) and of past Jewish history. The reason UNSCR 2334 passed 14-0-1 is that no one has been persuaded you have it right.

        (You also have a false confidence in your ability to make work for you the one state reality you have let your settlers with their crazed tenaciousness bring about. But that’s another story.)

        Reply to Comment
    46. AJew

      “…Both sides…”

      Show me one post of yours Benny where you blame Arabs for the violation of the human rights of Israeli Jews. Just one Post, Benny. One post. Is that too much to ask?!

      Also, stop pretending that my complaints about the Arabs apply only to the past because the Arabs have evolved.

      Go back to my previous two post of the 30th of January in which I refuted your claim. You just point blank ignored those posts and just repeated your dubious claim as if it is God’s gospel truth. Well it isn’t. I showed you why it isn’t but all you can do is ASSERT it.

      Reply to Comment
    47. AJew

      Oh and Benny, stop being lazy. Stop this battle of links. Either that or I will resort to it too. Here is a link about:

      Making peace.

      http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/search-results/Making+peace

      It shows that making peace is a bit more complicated than your kumbayah “Peace Now” crowd pretend.

      To sum it up, the saying:

      “You can take a mule to water, but you can’t make him drink it”

      …that saying comes to mind. In case you are in doubt, I am likening the Palestinian Arabs to mules.

      Reply to Comment
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+972 is an independent, blog-based web magazine. It was launched in August 2010, resulting from a merger of a number of popular English-language blogs dealing with life and politics in Israel and Palestine.

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