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Israeli teens tell Netanyahu: We will not take part in occupation

Nearly 50 Israeli teenagers of draft age send letter to Prime Minister Netanyahu, stating clearly that they will refuse to join the IDF due to the occupation of the West Bank, and the violent effect it has on Israeli society.

Dozens of Israel teenagers signed a letter to Prime Minister Netanyahu on Saturday, in which they announced that they would refuse to serve in the Israeli army come draft time.

According to the letter, the teenagers are refusing to enlist in the army due to their “opposition to the military occupation of Palestinian territories,” where “human rights are violated, and acts defined under international law as war-crimes are perpetuated on a daily basis.” Aside from the ultra-Orthodox and Palestinian citizens of Israel, army service is mandatory for all Israelis (three years for males, two for females).

The letter goes on to decry the effect of the occupation on Israeli society itself, especially the way it “shapes the educational system, our workforce opportunities, while fostering racism, violence and ethnic, national and gender-based discrimination,” and promotes and perpetuates “male dominance” and oppressive gender structures within the army itself.

Dafna Rotstein (left) and Roy Lax, two of the refuseniks who signed the letter to Prime Minister Netanyahu. Lax:

Dafna Rotstein (left) and Roni Lax, two of the refuseniks who signed the letter to Prime Minister Netanyahu. Lax: ‘If they decide to enlist me by force, I’ll sit in prison.’

Udi Segal, an 18 year old from Kibbutz Tuval in Israel’s north told +972 that his signing of the letter is connected to the rightward shift taking place in Israeli society.

“I cannot take part in an army that occupies another people and makes Israeli society more violent and apathetic to what is happening,” says Segal.

17-year-old Elza Bugnet, who also signed the letter, says the issue is not solely about opposing the military. “The idea is to bring the idea of the occupation up for public discussion. To create a new understanding of enlistment and what that means for Israelis, and especially what it means for the occupation.”

Bugnet, who is originally from Tel Aviv, says that her friends and family support her decision to refuse. “I get a lot of support from my family – we share the same beliefs. A lot of my friends don’t necessarily agree with my choice, but appreciate what I am doing regardless.”

Segal’s family, on the other hand, has had a more difficult time with his decision. “My family doesn’t necessarily agree with my decision. They mostly worry about my future and what repercussions this choice could have. My grandparents are having an especially difficult time, since they are from the generation that established the state, and see army service as mandatory.”

For Roni Lax, a 20-year-old and former member of the ultra-Orthodox community, refusal is part of his family history. “My father sat in jail for refusing to serve on religious grounds,” Lax tells me over the phone. “My parents generally do support my decision, but for different reasons.”

Lax’s encounter with the military came at around age 16. Growing up in the ultra-Orthodox community in Bnei Brak, Lax was pressured to remain committed to religion and study at a yeshiva (aside from a very small percentage, ultra-Orthodox are not generally required to serve in the IDF). At age 17, he began considering enlisting due to the incentives provided by the army for its Haredi recruits.

“In the beginning they wanted to recruit me, but they didn’t want to give me a release for yeshiva studies. At age 19 I left the yeshiva and did a year of national service, during which I decided that I didn’t want to take part in the army.”

Lax, who began his enlistment process prior to signing the letter, and is currently trying to get an exemption for health reasons, says he signed the conscientious objector’s letter for two reasons: refusing to take part in the system that occupies Palestinians, as well as out of solidarity with what is often referred to as “grey refusers,” or people who refuse to enlist or go AWOL out of financial necessity.

When asked about the possible consequences, Bugnet says “We know that the outcome might be problematic, but we cannot be a part of an army that takes upon itself to occupy another people.” “I am sure there will be a big price to pay,” adds Segal, “but I don’t really want to live in a community that measures me by whether or not I served in the army.”

Lax manages to sound confident, despite his uncertain near future. “It’s enough for me to know that one other person read the letter and changed his or her mind. That’s how I know I’ve done my job. But I have no idea what’s going to happen now. If they decide to enlist me by force, I’ll sit in prison.”

Read more:
Druze teen: ‘I will not be a soldier in your army’
WATCH: Supporters stage prison vigil for conscientious objector Natan Blanc

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    COMMENTS

    1. The Trespasser

      So, these lovely young fellals do not wish to participate in the occupation process (which had started in May 1948, ask any Palestinian) yet they will still keep their benefits which are only available because the occupation takes place.

      Hopefully, they will have to serve equally long time behind bars.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        Hi, You are correct to remark that to occupy is not merely to serve in the army.

        What would you have these kids do? What would you do if you were in their place?

        Reply to Comment
        • Elya

          If I were in their place, I would stop flapping my tongue about peace and join the IDF – the only peacekeeping force in our region.
          As a matter of fact, I were in their place some years ago, and that’s exactly what I did.

          Reply to Comment
          • HAL

            Just sound like a Hasbara and feel free to continue to believe in the delusion. Of Israel being the only peace keeping force. You dont really believe in peace. Just obedience.

            Reply to Comment
      • Ittai

        The Trespasser,

        If it is true what you say why didnt Egypt and Jordan established a Palestinian state in Gaza and Judea and Samaria right after 1948? both countries had control on these regions from 1948-1967!! the only thing they did was to encourage terrorists (at the 50s of the last century they were known as ‘fadain’) that have murdered Israeli citizens and later in 1964 the have established the PLO.

        The independent war of Israel took from 1947-1949. It began on November 30 1947 just after the UN has declared that the Jews has the right to their country and it will be divided – part Jewish, part Arab and part international. the next days – Jews were murdered in a bus by local arabs and the war began. The Brits have left only in May 1948 and on the next day Arab countries (Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq while other countries have sent volunteers) have invaded the country that is 1 day old.

        Reply to Comment
    2. Monique Buckner

      Always maintain a clear conscience by seeing the humanity of others and this will be the foundation for a mind at peace with itself because you will have recognized your own humanity. I wish each and every one of you a very good future. Peace!

      Reply to Comment
    3. Helper

      How can people support these brave youngsters?

      Reply to Comment
    4. Jan

      Kudos to these brave young people. In a country as militarized as Israel this takes real courage.
      I wish them well and pray that more young people will follow their lead.

      Reply to Comment
    5. It is difficult to believe people so young realize what this stand may entail. Time is one way, but youth sees forever. Perhaps that is why we try to appropriate it to out own ends.

      I have great respect for a noncooperative stance targeted to occupation, but to actual noncooperation one must accept punishment. I lucked past the American draft by just a few years. Looking back, I think either going or refusing would have been quite difficult in outcomes for me. I hope those who oppose their refusal see the fortitude it requires.

      Reply to Comment
      • “out” should be “our,” “actual” should be “actualize.” And I should really stop thinking I can trust my typing in even small comments.

        Reply to Comment
    6. shachalnur

      Omer Goldman,daughter of a Mosssad Chief,refused as well a few years ago.

      She’s still outspoken,smart and brave young woman.

      Reply to Comment
      • Marcos

        Right! Because she agrees with you. Hypocrite

        Reply to Comment
        • shachalnur

          Where did I say I agree with her or vice versa ,Sub-Commandante?

          She remains outspoken,smart and brave.

          Reply to Comment
    7. Marcos

      Let’s not give these narcissists one more moment than they deserve.

      Reply to Comment
    8. Tzutzik

      “She’s still outspoken,smart and brave young woman.”

      “Where did I say I agree with her or vice versa ,Sub-Commandante?”

      Either that, or she is seriously stupid. Which is it, Shachalnur?

      Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        Let me put it this way.

        You are also an outspoken,smart and brave young woman.

        The difference is she wants peacefull co-existance and you want to go on ethnically cleansing people from lands they have lived on for thousands of years.

        But I bet you are better looking.

        Reply to Comment
        • Tzutzik

          “Let me put it this way….”

          You are a regular comedian Shachalnur. Where did you pull that irrelevant diatribe from? From where the sun does not shine?

          You do tend to suffer from illusions of grandeur. Omnipotence maybe?

          Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “The difference is she wants peacefull co-existance”

            What a no brainier. Who doesn’t? Is the Pope catholic?

            We all want motherhood and apple pie (yes even non Americans) The question is:

            Do the Palestinians want coexistence? Or do they wan’t to create an Arab majority state by demanding the right of return. Right now it is the latter. Hence there is no peace.

            There will be peace AND they will get their own state which we will recognise too as soon as they will give up that so called right of return and as they too will recognise Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

            In the meanwhile, this woman and her friends are wrong, wrong, wrong …

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Jews and Muslims have lived in peacefull co-existance for centuries ,if not longer ,untill the newly created Israel decided to scare poorer Jews into Israel to make up the numbers.

            The rich and better educated ones went to the US,Canada and France.

            European Jewry wasn’t very enthousiastic at all in going to Israel,because they refused to be forced by the Zionists.

            Even today Spharadi and Mizrahi Jews are still second class citizens,after being treated like animals upon arriving in Israel(The Ringworm Affair,The missing Yemeni babies).

            Most imported Jews from the US and Europe don’t know anything about Arab and Middle East culture ,history and aspirations,and are mostly blatently racist towards anything Arab, Muslim or even Jews from Arab coutries.

            As long as Israeli’s don’t know what peacefull co-existance is,you can’t expect Arabs,as the oppressed ,to accept any demands by Israel.

            While I was studying at Tel- Aviv University in the 80’s ,a Palestinian friend,a doctor in Biology told me;”Israeli’s don’t understand Palestinians.We’re not gonna drive them into the sea,we’re gonna drive them crazy.Then they will start fighting eachother and then they will leave.”

            My personal opinion?

            There’s enough space for all Jews,all Palestinians and all Jordanans,including those in the Diaspora,in the future Israel ,Palestine and Jordan,and they will share all land and water..

            This will be one country with three independent states without borders where everybody is free to settle in all of the Land,and will come to be as soon as Israeli Jews will stop being Bankerslaves and will stop behaving like Fascist fremdkörper in the Middle East.

            Peace will come when Israeli Jews prove they are part of the Middle East and not a tool/ weapon and slave of foreign Bankers.

            The Arabs,including Palestinians have been there for thousands of years and are not going anywhere,if Jews have a place in the Middle East still remains to be seen ,and will depend on the behaviour of Jews more than on Arabs.

            You fail to see that Jews are more enslaved ,more used as a tool than Arabs ever were.

            Jews are lucky Arabs are patient and they ultimately see Jews as their cousins behaving like Nazi’s,sponsored by Nazi’s.

            As soon as Jews liberate themselves from slavery,Jews and Arabs will live in peace in the Middle East.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Jews and Muslims have lived in peacefull co-existance for centuries ,if not longer ,untill the newly created Israel decided to scare poorer Jews into Israel to make up the numbers.”

            Not true. Although overall, Jews were treated better in Muslim countries than in Europe, Jews were subordinated to Muslims and were subject to the whims of the Muslim rulers some WERE benevolent but there were periodic upheavals during which Jews were subject to bloody pogroms. Here, read this:

            “The attitude of the Muslims toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves, whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.(11)”

            H.E.W. Young, British Vice Consul in Mosul, 1909:

            To be continued …

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Peace will come when Israeli Jews prove they are part of the Middle East and not a tool/ weapon and slave of foreign Bankers.”

            This man, Shachalnur is obsessed with Jewish bankers. Here he refrained and used the term “foreign” bankers but on another thread, he kept on repeating the term Jewish bankers).

            I could write a much lengthier response to his long post but I won’t because he went off topic.

            But I will say this: His vision of peace is for Jews to subordinate themselves again like in the old days. And my response to him is that peace will come when Arabs will learn to accept the fact that we Jews are a people too. We have a right to live in dignity as an independent nation equal in every way to the rest of humanity. And that Arabs are not the only ones who have the right to self determination.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            The foreign Bankers are not all Jews.

            And who are you talking to anyway,”illusions of grandeur”(Tzutzik dixit)?

            About Jewish subordination;After Israel stopped being Banker slaves and decided to be part of the Middle East, she should keep her nukes.

            And she should invite any Arab country feeling threatened by the Bankers ,under her nuclear umbrella.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            This thread is about the refusal of some (very few) Israeli youngsters to serve in the Israeli army because of the occupation.

            They are wrong. They are wrong because the occupation is not what most Israelis want. Israel always accepted the two state solution, the Arabs were the ones who rejected it till relatively recently and then only on their terms involving the right of return. That would not be a two state solution. That would be the one and a half state solution. One all Arab state (Palestine) and half Jewish half Arab state. Moreover it would not end there. It would be stage 1. In stage 2, the Arabs would turn Israel into another Arab state. How do we know? They refuse to recognise Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Why?

            And here is the clincher. Before 1967, there was no “occupation”. Did the Arabs allow Israel to live in peace? NO!!! NO!!! NO!!! What was their excuse then? There was no excuse. They clearly declared at every opportunity their intention to eliminate the only Jewish state in the Middle East (they called it a cancer).

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            “If you know the enemy and know yourself,you need not fear the result of a thousand battles.
            If you know yourself but not the enemy,for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
            If you know neither the enemy nor yourself,you will succumb in every battle.”

            Sun Tzu,”The Art of War”.

            You know neither.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            Shakhalnur, you are strong on slogans and short on facts.

            We know what the Palestinians want. If anything, Tzutzik understated the situation. He didn’t mention Hamas which still openly declares it’s aim to destroy Israel.

            And you are here, together with your colleagues to spread disinformation and mess with the minds of young Israelis. Unfortunately at times successfully.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Oh,it’s you again , racist Sam.

            Racist towards Palestinians and Jews of Spharadi and Mizrahi origin.

            This is Samuel,lest we forget;

            “As for the right of return,there won’t be any……Israel is not obliged to let in millions of[Palestinians/Arabs].
            No other country would behave differently especially since Israel ALSO HAD TO ABSORB NEARLY A MILLION JEWISH REFUGEES FROM ARAB COUNTRIES.(emphasis mine)

            Do you know anything about The Ringworm Affair and the Missing Yemeni Babies?

            Eugenics much,Sam?

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            SAMUEL:”As for the right of return,there won’t be any……Israel is not obliged to let in millions of[Palestinians/Arabs].
            No other country would behave differently especially since Israel ALSO HAD TO ABSORB NEARLY A MILLION JEWISH REFUGEES FROM ARAB COUNTRIES.(emphasis mine – Shakhalnur’s)”

            That is racist? I stand by what I said. No country would let itself be outpopulated by adversaries who were raised to believe that the country has no right to exist.

            And. Yes, Israel absorbed nearly a million Jewish refugees who were kicked out from Arab countries. What we had here is a population exchange the same as happened in many other wars in history. For instance, between Pakistan and India in 1948. And earlier in the 20th century between Greece and Turkey.

            The rest of your post is just disinformation designed to mess with the minds of Israelis. It happens in all wars. It is called psychological warfare.

            Reply to Comment
          • Why SHOULDN’T they have the right to return to the place where they lived…..?? WHY SHOULDN’T THEY..?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Because INSTEAD OF ACCEPTING THE TWO STATE SOLUTION THAT THE UN PROPOSED IN 1947, which would have meant that they were willing to live and let live with their Jewish neighbours, they rioted and attacked the prospective Jewish state and PROMISED TO DRIVE THE JEWS INTO THE SEA.

            And that was no flash in the pan phenomenon. Since before 1929 they showed their hatred of their Jewish neighbours, as early as 1929, they massacred most of Hebron’s Jews and got rid of the rest.

            Aggressors are not rewarded in any war that aggressors lose. WHY SHOULD ISRAEL ALLOW PEOPLE WHO HATE ISRAEL SO MUCH TO RETURN AND DESTROY ISRAEL FROM WITHIN? We are not suicidal. Get over it!

            Reply to Comment
    9. Dave

      I don’t think heroics, virtue, or ideologies have anything to do with it. Am I correct in assuming that all or most of these kids come from some economically advantaged strata of Israeli society? Most of them are probably extremely bright and likely university bound. They’re probably taking a good hard look at national service with all that entails as far as the occupation is concerned and their thinking; what’s in it for me? Protecting the interests of kipat srulgah wearing settlers who’d like to see them dead or locked up in camps somewhere over the crime of a difference of opinion. Why bother?

      Reply to Comment
      • Vadim

        “Protecting the interests of kipat srulgah wearing settlers who’d like to see them dead or locked up in camps somewhere over the crime of a difference of opinion.”

        Kipot Srugot?! Of all people, you chose them as an example of people who wish others dead over difference of opinion?!

        Do you even know what’s going on here in Israel? Where we’re located on the map? What’s a Kipa Sruga? People with no clue of what’s going on here, shouldn’t even have an opinion. And even if they do, they should have enough sense not to post it.

        There’s enough to do in the IDF or in the civil service that has nothing to do with the “occupation”. These guys are simply ungrateful brats.

        Reply to Comment
        • Dave

          Ok dipstick. I’m an Israeli citizen who served in tsahal for 3 yrs about 20 years ago. Now down to cases. You think your current ridiculous hystrionics doesn’t mirror the ridiculous histrionics of 20 years ago back when you were calling yourselves Kachnikim (at least if you were honest)? You better get yourself some new material, you’re going into repeats like an episode of “I Love Lucy”. This “the leftists are all traitors” stuff emanating from shtellers of Chelm is old hat. While I can appreciate your (and not to mention your gov’ts) discomfiture over having to tolerate opinions you don’t want to hear, I think your suggestion is a weak half measure considering the fact that you have been bloviating here for sometime now, without ever having pulled your head out of your ass once. So all things being equal, I would go one step further and suggest that any one who spends his days smelling his own rear end should seriously consider removing his cranium from his rectal orafice before expressing himself. Good day you to sir.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ilonj

            “considering the fact that you have been bloviating here for sometime now, without ever having pulled your head out of your ass once.”

            A canned response found in propaganda file number WTFPutDownZionists789

            To be used when you can’t respond to logical arguments.

            Congratulations, David, you are doing your job well. Five red stars for you and one sickle and a hammer.

            Reply to Comment
          • Dave

            Ah, Ilonj. Still constipated I see. Try a coffee enema. Now What argument was that sparky? The one where your boyfriend couldn’t come up with a cogent response to my supposition, so instead retreated into a miasma of yeshiva boy smart-assery? That wasn’t an argument. Obviously those were the muffled meanderings of someone who has gone spelunking in his own anus, lol. But seriously, all I’m saying here is that by the looks of it these kids all look, how shall I put this, very Tel Avivy in a Rehov Sheinkin sort of a way. They also seem extremely bright. It is possible that they are bright enough to surmise that as residents of the free market paradise that Israel has become, they no longer feel bound to adhere to a set of values that have become in their view, obsolescent. Self interest is the name of the game and because their bright, they might have options that don’t require group concurrence. Therefore, it is possible despite the sanctimony and morally acceptable self-justification, that they look at their country and it’s intstutions, and come to the conclusion that these are not leaders and institutions that are serving their needs. And by needs, I’m not speaking of peace and love and kumbaya. That is to say those needs that they deem essential to their success in life, ie-subsidized day care, better schools, cheaper housing, financial aid for higher education, etc. Instead it’s possible that these people now view those intstutions as having been harnessed to provide funding for an infrastructure that benefits others, but not them

            Reply to Comment
          • IlonJ

            Another red star and a sickle and a hammer for you.

            And Tovarisch to you Comrade, David.

            Reply to Comment
          • Dave

            Been stealing the cookies out of the jar for years. The moment someone cares to mention it, you become hysterical, seeing communists under the bed, Obama coming out of the woodwork. Easy there, jittery joe. No ones asking you to give it back just yet. Lol

            Reply to Comment
          • Average American

            Interesting you mention Kachnikim. If you look at the history of Israel, this is very valid to mention. Begin and his Irgun is also valid to mention. Irgun symbol is a rifle over the map of the British Mandate, and this is what Israel still wants, but wants it all to be Jewish (ethnic) majority. This circles back to mentioning Kach party ethnic opinions of themselves.

            Reply to Comment
    10. Judy

      As an Israeli who sees the situation up close, I find this ironic. They claim the IDF is “fostering racism, violence and ethnic, national and gender-based discrimination […]and promotes ‘male dominance.'” Look at the Arab leaders! They are encouraging very young children to be violent! They teach in the schools that Jews are worse than pigs! They totally perpetuate male dominance and gender-based discrimination; look at the way Arab women are (mis)treated (think: Honor Killings)! Perhaps these young Israelis are on the wrong side of their own ideals. Perhaps serving in the IDF would help oust corrupt Palestinian leaders and free the people, who are currently political pawns, to their own detriment!

      Reply to Comment
      • JG

        “It is difficult to believe people so young realize what this stand may entail.”
        But they are old enough to join the occupation forces, so what’s the point?

        Reply to Comment
    11. Vadim

      This reminds me of “this House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country”. Both are shameful.

      They could have become paramedics and helped others, they could have been teachers or instructors, they could have worked with IT or software development or any other of such roles. They could have served as combatants and treat others as they think we all should.

      Instead they rant and force others to take their share of the burden.

      Reply to Comment
      • directrob

        It might be shameful to refuse to fight for King and country but it is a human right. The more so when one considers that England was a colonial power.

        I would go as far as to say if one believes in human rights for Palestinians it is probably almost impossible to live with a clean conscience in Israel. Joining the IDF is simply incompatible.

        Reply to Comment
        • winston smith

          With my old NKVD unit, I used to rather enjoy rounding up the Christian peasants in Ukraine. How we made them howl! And the looks on their faces when they realized they were digging their own graves. Oh, the memories. But that’s all ancient history now. 1941. Today’s Jewish youth seem to have gone soft. I only hear of one or two deaths a day.

          Reply to Comment
          • directrob

            I saw that one coming …

            Those same boys did volunteer to fight the Nazi’s, some of them in the international brigades in Spain.

            They thought it wrong to fight in the colonies and thought it wrong to fight for King and country but they did fight for humanity.

            The current IDF is no better than any other ugly colonial occupatian force.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “With my old NKVD unit, I used to rather enjoy rounding up the Christian peasants in Ukraine”

            The NKVD was an equal opportunity employer. It employed more NON Jews than Jews.

            Not only that. The NKVD was non discriminatory with it’s crimes. It murdered lots of Jews not just Christians.

            But hey, Smithy’s record player is stuck on Jews, Jews, Jews ….

            PS
            I know that he did not actually use the word “Jew” or “Jews” anywhere in his post. But hey, we know what he was trying to convey. And now he will come out and say: “Some of my best friends are Jews …”

            Reply to Comment
          • Average American

            Regarding the NKVD, I wonder why no one is putting together the people, pieces, and timetable. It was a holocaust in Russia, and it should be studied and glorified just like the holocaust in Germany. And guess what, Jews were running it! Then the same Jews came to the middle east and ran another holocaust, this one again to get people out of their way. Is the Russian one not talked about because bloody Jews were running it?

            Reply to Comment
    12. Mireille

      “We will not take part in occupation” : but by living in Israel, you already take part in the occupation !!!

      Reply to Comment
      • Tzutzik

        Actually, according to some, living ANYWHERE, Jews are guilty of OCCUPATION.

        Would you be happier if Jews would move to live on the dark side of the moon? Or would that be OCCUPATION too, Mirrelli?

        Reply to Comment
        • shachalnur

          Actually it would be occupation too.

          Buy your land at:

          Lunarland.com

          Moonshop.com

          Moonestates.com

          Run by Jews, offcourse.

          Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “offcourse”

            I think our amateur comedian meant to say “of course” but he made a freudian slip again showing his disdain for the Jewish people.

            Everyone wants to be a comedian but if I would be him, I wouldn’t quit my day job. Then again he probably hasn’t got one. … he is batty like a fruit cake.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            I’m a lumberjack,and I’m okay….

            Off course.

            You went a bit too far with your Jewish kapo -stuff,not funny.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            I hear you. Now let’s just analyse your claim dispassionately.

            At what point does one go too far?

            Is calling someone a racist, as you did to SAMUEL, going too far?

            Is calling me and others collectively banker’s slaves, going too far?

            Is giving me your recipe for returning to be human, implying that I am not human now, going too far?

            Is talking incessantly about “Jewish Bankers” committing and conspiring to commit crimes going too far? (I know that you amended your tone after I complained about it, but not before).

            Is implying that somehow there is something inherently wrong if it is run by Jews, going too far?

            Is telling all and sundry that the Jewish people alone have no right to have an independent state but Arab people have the right to have as many Arab/Muslim states as they like? going too far?

            You said all of the above about me and other/s. Answer the above Shachalnur and then we can discuss whether I went too far or not.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            discussing with you is like playing chess with a pigeon;

            you crap on the board,knock over the pieces and fly back to your flock,claiming victory.

            You refuse to discuss any facts,a known tactics,and that makes you a Banker slave troll.

            You refuse to discuss Chaitkin,Langfan and many other Jews I bring up,saying you “don’t need to read it”.

            waste your time on some one else.

            I don’t trust you anymore.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “I don’t trust you anymore.”

            You mean up till now you trusted me?

            I thought we had what might have passed for a civilised discussion although I did not agree with you. But then you blew your stack, spat your dummy and started being abusive. And now you are complaining? What was it you were muttering about karma a couple of times? Something like what goes around comes around?

            Next time be more convincing. Either that or examine your own crappy claims and think again. And don’t forget this: the internet is not the source of all truth or wisdom. Nor are some unheard of writers who make all sorts of fantastic claims because they have agendas.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            That answers one of your name callings against me, the banker’s slave bit. Not well mind you, but at least it is your opinion.

            What about the rest of your abuse against me and others? No answers to those?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            You poor victim.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Nope, I am not a victim. But please don’t pretend that YOU have been attacked unfairly.

            Take it like a man. What you dish out that is …

            Reply to Comment
          • Average American

            Hey, I think you are referencing Monty Python’s lumberjack skit! Very good! I liked that skit too. Nice to see some things transcend across cultures and issues!

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            “Romanes eunt domus”

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Derivative humor. You can’t even come up with your own punch lines.

            Don’t give up your day job.

            PS
            Monthy python was great.

            Reply to Comment
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