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'Israeli authorities treat gun violence in our community as an Arab problem'

Israeli police estimate that there are hundreds of thousands of illegal guns among Palestinian citizens of Israel, a community suffering from under-policing and high levels of violence. Are the guns the problem? And what can be done about it?

Illustrative photo of Israeli police at a murder scene, October 10, 2018. (Flash90)

Illustrative photo of Israeli police at a murder scene, October 10, 2018. (Flash90)

The Palestinian community in Israel has been experiencing an ongoing wave of violence for some years now. In the past week alone, seven people were killed in Kafr Qasim, Acre, Jaffa, and Lyd. The killings tend to rob Palestinians in Israel their sense of personal security, and guns have become so pervasive, that at times it feels like anyone could be the next victim.

“When you see that 70 Arabs get killed every year on average, of which 15-20 are women, you can’t help but feel depressed,” said Meissa Irshaid, an attorney with the Gun-Free Kitchen Tables Campaign, a coalition of women’s organizations working to eliminate gun violence.

The organization has been researching the sources of guns in the Palestinian community in Israel. What they found is that most illegal firearms in Israel are actually registered to the army. According to Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan, 90 percent of illegal firearms in the north of Israel can be traced back to the military.

Gun Free Kitchen Tables started keeping track of the numbers of firearms in public spaces, and whether they are monitored by authorities. First, they researched how many legal firearms are registered. In the process, they discovered that law enforcement authorities don’t have accurate numbers, only estimations.

“The Department of Firearm Licensing at the Public Security Ministry is responsible for firearm registration, but they couldn’t provide accurate data. So we started conducting meticulous research ourselves,” explained Irshaid.

“We found several internal contradictions and gaps in the data provided by the various authorities. If law enforcement can’t keep track of how many firearms are circulating, imagine what’s going on out there illegally,” she added.

According to Irshaid, there are around 300,000 registered firearms in Israel, and they are mostly owned by law enforcement and Jewish citizens. In 2013, police estimated there are around 400,000 unlicensed guns in Israel, and that most of them are owned by Palestinians citizens.

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What has caused the recent spike in murders?

“This wasn’t the case 10 years ago, which proves that what they say about the Palestinian community, that we are inherently violent, is simply not true,” she continued. “One of the central causes is the meteoric rise in the number of firearms in the Arab community. Nothing else has changed as significantly as that.”

“It’s not just about the people who end up dead — nobody in the media talks about those who are injured,” she added. “This is where the real problem lies. Thousands of people are injured, many of whom become disabled for life. Thousands more live under the constant threat of violence. When you consider that there are 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel, the numbers are even more concerning.”

I have a feeling the authorities know exactly where they can find these guns.

“The problem is that Israeli authorities treat violence in our community as an internal Arab problem. All it would take is a single gunshot in a Jewish neighborhood of Tel Aviv and police would do everything in their power to find the perpetrator. The state is directly responsible for the violence. To deal with any phenomenon, the authorities usually map out the problem. The fact that they don’t know how many firearms are out there indicates that they haven’t taken any significant steps to deal with the issue.”

It sounds like the army and the police are arming whoever they want in the Arab community.

“The police claim that they don’t have any control over the army warehouses, which means they are combating the symptom, not the root of the problem. There may not be coordination between the army and the police, but you’re right. For example, we know about a case in Jaffa where police confiscated a gun that was found at a crime scene and shortly afterward the same gun appeared at a different crime scene. What does this tell you?”

Based on the organization’s research, in addition to weapons stolen from the army, the primary sources of weapons in the Arab community in Israel are those smuggled from Jordan, guns that were once legally licensed in Israel, and guns that were manufactured in the occupied territories.

As of 2013, there were 14,000 licensed firearms whose owners either died or left the country. Their firearms were not collected by law enforcement, said Irshaid, adding that it only makes sense those firearms would be sold or stolen.

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What solutions do you propose?

“The government is promoting an 80-page bill to regulate registered firearms in Israel. But what about illegal guns? What we’re proposing is supervision of licensed and legal firearms, including those held by the military and police. There is a very strong connection between security companies, for example, and organized crime in Palestinian society. Why not monitor Arab security companies who we know buy firearms and sell them to criminals?”

“For the 400,000 [illegal] firearms that are already out there, we suggest that law enforcement launch a program for gun owners to turn in their firearms with immunity. In other parts of the world those types of programs go on for six months. In Israel police carried out such an operation for one week and only one gun was turned in. You have to motivate people to cooperate with the police.”

“A third solution is a buyback, where the state re-purchases the firearms”

Not everyone agrees with Irshaid’s analysis, however.

“Many people blame the police,” explained Professor Mona Khoury-Kassabri, dean of the School of Social Work and Social Welfare at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. “I agree that they have to change their policies and that they’re not doing enough. But I don’t think the prevalence of firearms is the main cause: it’s a catalyst but not a cause. Even if you sleep with a gun under your bed, if you’re not a violent person; you won’t necessarily use it. What we have here is a community that has internalized violence as a solution.”

“Violence begins with personality traits. Some people naturally tend to be violent. After that, other factors come in, like family, education, and what we call contextual characteristics  — when you live with violence around you, you internalize these values and methods of problem solving. We don’t have the appropriate systems in place to contain the problem of violence in our community, or to deal with the generational divides.”

What do you mean by generational divides?

“I mean the process of modernization and liberalization that our youth is experiencing. This gap between a child and their parent can also lead to violence.”

It feels like there is a difference in the extreme violence we’re witnessing lately. In the past, it used to be more random. Over the past few years, it has become more targeted, and there’s a sense that there are professional assassins walking around.

“Here I agree with you, that the problem of firearms plays a role. But again, the central problem in my view is the fact that we’re solving problems with violence. Why are we doing that? Because, among other things, we have lost our faith in the system and the authorities.”

Yet Khoury criticizes the Palestinian community before blaming the police: “If we don’t solve our problem as a community, which is adopting violence, then the cycle of violence will go on.”

What are we supposed to do, then?

“Fight violence all the time, not just by attending protests. We have to change social perceptions and chauvinistic and masculine values — they are the primary factors contributing to the increase in violence. And by the way, in contrast to what people think, religion is not a factor in increased incidents of violence.”

Khoury researched the correlation between religion and violence in the Arab community and found that teenagers in religious Muslims and Christian communities were involved in fewer acts of violence compared to their secular counterparts.

“Religious values are a positive influence,” says Khoury. “I’m not saying whoever is secular has to become religious now, but it’s worth understanding what children are being taught in these communities. This is true not only in Muslim and Christian communities, but throughout the entire world, including religious Jewish communities.”

A version of this article first appeared in Hebrew on Local Call. Read it here.

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    COMMENTS

    1. Bruce Gould

      @Ido: It’s perfectly clear that while you live in a country in which 20% of the citizens are Palestinian, you don’t have any close Palestinian friends – you know, some guy you’ve had a beer with 4 or 5 times a year for the last 10 years – it’s always some ‘Arab’ shopkeeper you talk to. Try this:
      – go out with Taayush and try to prevent the settlers from burning down the olive trees.
      – go on a field trip with ICAHD and watch a home demolition, talk to the newly homeless Palestinian family.
      – go to the offices of Breaking the Silence and buy everyone pizza for lunch, interview them on what they’ve seen.
      – take Michael Sfard out to dinner, discuss human rights in Isral.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        What’s perfectly clear is how this has nothing to do with my post. Also you have no clue about me.
        “it’s always some ‘Arab’ shopkeeper you talk to” -> um, the hell ? it’s always ? and you got that from what ? me saying once how I visited Jerusalem recently in a post from a week ago and talked to people there ? you didn’t answer my question from that post, would you like me to repeat it ?
        “which 20% of the citizens are Palestinian” -> You mean Arab. Quite many of them don’t self identify as ‘Palestinians’ as the evidence I provided in my post shows. Unless you refer to the actual real original definition of the word, people who live in the geographic region known as Palestine. Then it’s close to 100%. Or the early 20th century definition of the word, referring to the Jewish residents of the British Mandate of Palestine, than in that case it’s close to 75%.
        As I said in the past, Israel has no place in the the West Bank, it should be used to create another Arab state on almost all of it for those who now call themselves ‘Palestinians’, pending peace agreement negotiations which will ensure Israel’s future security and continual existence.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          [SARCASM AND SATIRE]

          “Israel has no place in the the West Bank”

          Ido’s phrase must have gotten truncated accidentally because I am sure he meant to be honest (*chortle*) and say “Israel has no place in the the West Bank except in Ariel, Ma’aleh Adumim, E1, the Jordan Valley and any other place I deem as ‘strategic’ or nifty for the Jewish Nation–we all are a Nation! Yes!–but them Palestinians they never existed–just sayin’–and needed for ‘security’ against crazed inherently violent Jew-blood-craving Arab zombies. Did I say Jew-blood? Remember, guns don’t kill people, people kill people and them A-rabs just loooove to kill, unlike us Jews who never kill except when we shoot unarmed people in the back or from a distance with sniper rifles from behind a berm or a fence because they made us do it-for which we can never forgive them. And if you disagree you might probably definitely are a clueless liar and have no idea what you are talking about and are hilarious and I almost choked to death laughing.”

          But don’t let me interrupt, Ido needs to get back to being racist and I wouldn’t dream of staying him from his appointed destiny.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): As usual Ben display his trademark selective reading and ignorance.
            “except in Ariel, Ma’aleh Adumim, E1, the Jordan Valley and any other place” -> what are the percentage of those areas out of the West Bank itself ? in the last couple of negotiation processes it was something like 5-6%, not half the West Bank. which will be traded with area from within the Green Line. Are you simply not aware of this or are you purposefully misleading as if I was talking on half of the West Bank ?
            “we all are a Nation! Yes!” -> as I recall you claimed that the Jewish nation doesn’t exactly exist. Now clueless nonsense of this magnitude should be studied. I actually provided you with lots of evidence, showing in detail you were talking nonsense. How did you take it ? you ignored it.
            It doesn’t exist if you ignore it, right ? did you say this incredible clueless idiotic nonsense about one of the oldest nations on earth ? yes or no ?
            “but them Palestinians they never existed” -> A Palestinian nation (or country) never existed in history, no matter how much you really, really want this to be true. I proved this to you how many times now ? you ignored the evidence of course, because reality seems to be uncomfortable to you.
            The Palestinian nationality exist now, but they are a new creation and they never existed in history. Claiming otherwise is an obvious lie.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “inherently violent Jew-blood-craving Arab zombies” -> it’s almost as if you have no basic clue of what is going on around Israel or the Middle-East in general and Gaza and the West Bank in particular. You think Israel will give the people who swore to eradicate them and attempted to do so several time, who see all of Israel as theirs, who attack Jews on a regular basis, the benefit of the doubt ? are you that stupid ?
            “we shoot unarmed people in the back” -> oh yes, we do that all the time. But the actual leaders of the Palestinians who literally pay handsomely for Jew murder, who literally call for Israel’s eradication and jew murder, who attacked Israel repeatedly, who call for Israel’s demise and see all of Israel as theirs as their official stated goals, we’ll ignore all of this. If we ignore it it doesn’t exist, right ?
            “might probably definitely are a clueless liar” -> you’re just being your usual clueless hyperbolic spewing idiotic nonsense self. The lying haven’t started yet. Start with answering the yes or no question about the Jewish nation.
            “no idea what you are talking about” -> that is obvious, as usual. A classic ‘Useful Idiot’, out of touch with reality.
            “I almost choked to death laughing” -> not really, you said all this clueless idiotic nonsense before. You need new material.
            “Ido needs to get back to being racist” -> here we go. Please, do explain. How does stating a fact, corroborated by Arabs themselves including the article itself, backed by actual data and statistics, is racist ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “5-6%”

            Now we are treated to the ridiculous and thoroughly discredited ruse that, basically, if I block my neighbor’s driveway with a steel rod one inch thick I am only depriving him of one inch of his property. Or something like that. I hope no one is paying you for this stuff, Ido. But you can’t embarrass an Israeli right wing propagandist! He’ll just open up his canned ad hominem (trademarked “Backed Up” brand, (*chuckle*)) can and sprinkle out more incredibly original and stirring “you are a stupid clueless liar who has no idea what he is talking about, nyah nyah nyah nyah.” Lord have mercy.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Now we are treated to the ridiculous and thoroughly discredited ruse…only depriving him of one inch of his property” -> of course that’s not the case when you are actually familiar with the facts and where the areas Israel is going to keep exist, for example the one from 2008:
            https://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Details-of-Olmerts-peace-offer-to-Palestinians-exposed-314261

            So the question is again: are you simply not aware of the facts or are you being misleading ? how is stating a fact ‘a discredited ruse’ ?

            “But you can’t embarrass an Israeli right wing propagandist!” -> um, you were wrong. Again.
            “He’ll just open up his canned ad hominem” -> so do I even need to bother saying how you again ignored my posts ? I’ll even number them for your convenience:

            1. You made a claim about the Jewish nationality. You didn’t answer my question. Yes or No ? this is not a complicated question.
            2. You said some nonsense about the Palestinian nationality which I never did, I never said the Palestinians never existed. I said the Palestinian nationality is a recent creation and historically a Palestinian nation and country never existed. The people sure did before they adopted the name ‘Palestinians’. Why are you ignoring this again ?
            3. You ignored everything I said as a respond to your nonsense about “Jew-blood-craving Arab zombies”.
            4. You claimed I need to go back to being racist, I pointed out how I stated a fact, not only backed up by the article itself but by evidence I provided in my post in the Facebook comments section, taken from Ha’aretz no less. You simply completely ignored this. Why is that ? you think I won’t notice ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Ido, 95% of what you say is tripe. And the 5% that is not tripe is buried inside the tripe. One ignores tripe. You take offense, you feel ignored, and it apparently really bothers you, but it’s not my problem, especially when you are so off-putting. You are kind of a jerk. And don’t know it.
            One does not feel the need to painstakingly dissect tripe so that one can be served more tripe. Or the need to defend the decision not to dissect tripe. You may think we are masochists but we are not. And you might also think we are insecure, easily-manipulated masochists but we are not that either. You try my patience.

            Representative tripe example:
            You left out the part about the one inch rod, Ido. In one of your signature and very routine truncated quote distortion maneuvers. And linking to a propaganda/disinformation sheet purveying the ruse does not substantiate the ruse. Read Bernard Avishai and Gershon Baskin.
            If all one did is read the JPost, the pablum fed most American Jews, one would have absolutely NO idea what is really going on in Israel-Palestine. I know because I read it for a year side by side with Haaretz and +972. It was an eye opener. +972 Magazine consistently tells the real story like no other publication. Which is why you are hostile to it.

            Ido give it up, no one believes this incredibly hackneyed stuff. This is a publication with people who actually know stuff. But they’ll probably love you over at the JPost talkbacks.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “95% of what you say is tripe.. the 5% that is not tripe is buried inside the tripe” -> then prove it. Show it, back up your claims. Why can’t you do this over and over again ?
            I stated a fact. Backed it up by evidence. You think it’s not true ? great. Prove it. I can’t understand how you’re not realizing that not being able to do so is not exactly beneficial to your “argument”.
            “You take offense, you feel ignored” -> you’re lying, making up nonsense, changing the subject over and over again so you won’t have to deal with my posts, with what I’m asking you.
            “really bothers you, but it’s not my problem” -> your twisting and lying repeatedly about me and what I say is also not helping your “arguments”. By the way, this is what is known as “ad hominem” if you were wondering.
            Address my posts, address the evidence, not me. This is you evading again. “you are kind of a jerk” -> case in point.
            “One does not feel the need to painstakingly dissect” -> oh how wrong you are. Calling it “tripe” does not cancel it out. I made a claim, backed it up with evidence, proved it is the truth. You think it isn’t ? calling it “tripe” won’t somehow cancel it out.
            Prove it, address it, back up your claims. This is what we adult do. You are saying “no it isn’t! because “tripe”” is like a child who can’t deal with reality.
            “Or the need to defend the decision not to dissect tripe” -> how on earth is historic fact backed by countless evidence “tripe” ? how on earth is easily to prove facts backed by evidence “tripe” ? why are you repeatedly lying about this like a small child who can’t deal with the uncomfortable reality ?
            “And you might also think we are insecure, easily-manipulated masochists” -> nope, I know you are a clueless liar who doesn’t know some of the most basic facts about Israel and the Middle-East and you make some of the most hilarious lying nonsense comments I have ever seen, see the examples above which you to this moment ignore as if your life depends on it.
            “You left out the part about the one inch rod” -> why are you lying when the post is right there ? about the West Bank which I backed with evidence you ignored. Proving you wrong.
            “truncated quote distortion maneuvers” -> how is it “truncated” ? “distorted” ? you are again making baseless accusations and evade the actual point. I don’t get it, you think lying like this and ignoring the post and evidence will make it go away ? are you 5 years old ?

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “And linking to a propaganda/disinformation” -> how is easily to prove facts, from the Palestinians source themselves no less, propaganda and disinformation ? you are again talking nonsense. Then prove it, show it, back up your claims. Why aren’t you able to do so over and over again ?
            “Read Bernard Avishai and Gershon Baskin” -> before you change the subject again, read the posts and evidence you again ignored. Address them, address the evidence. I proved you wrong, repeatedly. I pointed again which parts you pathetically ignored, again.
            Why can’t you do this ? why is this so difficult for you ?
            “If all one did is read the JPost,” -> Ha’aretz is not the JPost ? Abbas works for the JPost ? how can I take you seriously when so say this incredible nonsense ? you don’t agree with something ? good: prove it, show how it’s wrong. How can you not realize that by not being
            able to do so you prove I’m right ?
            “one would have absolutely NO idea what is really going on in Israel-Palestine” -> you are a great example to someone who has no idea what is really going on in Israel. Your claim about the Jewish nationality (that you still ignore as if your life depends on it) is a great example.
            “I know because I read it for a year side by side with Haaretz and +972” -> I think I found the source of your delusional idiotic nonsense right there. Yes, read pro-Palestinian propaganda only, it explains your affinity to anti-semitic drivel like what you said about the Jews.
            “Which is why you are hostile to it” -> hostile ? you mean pointing out facts which contradict the pro-Palestinian propaganda of the article author ? like I did here ? think I’m wrong ? then prove it. Go right ahead.
            The post is right there, the evidence is right there, go.
            “no one believes this incredibly hackneyed stuff” -> lie to yourself as much as you like, the facts and evidence I posted are not going to change.
            “who actually know stuff.” -> as always, I adore it when you finish with a hearty joke. Know stuff. I’m assuming you place yourself in that group. How many times I proved you are a clueless liar who doesn’t know what he’s talking about ? I lost count.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            ‘“You left out the part about the one inch rod” ->
            why are you lying when the post is right there ?’

            Ido, this would be as good an example as any of how you distort and deploy the word “liar” abysmally. And as usual, it involves a kind of sneaky ignoring, a sneaky trick-playing, a pretending that a single, isolated “fact” of “5-6%” is definitive, exhaustive, and not itself a form of propaganda, of lying with statistics. “But I stated a fact! Why are you lying about this?! ” Ido always insists, appallingly, as if an isolated and misleading and context-less “fact” were an argument, and as if being unimpressed by this “fact” means someone is “lying.” Really quite appalling tactics, for which Ido is now infamous. And that is on a good day. On most days, what gets called a “fact” is a contentious interpretation masquerading as a “fact.” For example, “Mahmoud Abbas’s undying real aim is the destruction of Israel. This is a fact. The PLO Charter says so. Go ahead. Prove me wrong.” He does this over and over. And jumps up and down over it and remonstrates, “again, prove me wrong, prove this is not a fact…” And piles up stuff like this and wants everyone to spend all day mired in these trenches of misleading “facts.” To which he can then pile on more misleading propaganda. Because it never ends. Hence, tripe. And the real loss involved in engaging Ido on this tripe is that more important things get lost, get distracted from, such as the main point of these superb +972 articles.—which one has to conclude is Ido’s real aim.

            This is the part about the one inch rod that Ido left out, and on the basis of my pointing that out, childishly calling me a “liar.”

            E1, against all odds
            The real point of the Jerusalem-Maale Adumim expansion is to cut east Jerusalem off from the West Bank
            Amos Gil|Published: 03.16.06 , 10:45
            https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3228505,00.html

            That, and, for example, this iron rod fallacy: the preposterous idea that a long finger of land snaking deep into the West Bank to enclose Ariel is no big deal, doesn’t impair the contiguity of a Palestinian state—because after all they’re just Palestinians, not Jews, they can tunnel under, those mole rats, what’s the big deal? They must really, really after all want to destroy us if they can’t accept being mole rats. Why are they so unreasonable, those Jew-blood craving mole rats….—thus would be the unstated implications that Ido wants everyone to ignore by jumping up and down and yelling “but I stated facts! It’s not fair!”

            And, then Ido, like the guy in the vice president’s bathroom air duct, reserves the right to be a highly offensive, gratuitous name caller (“liar…lying…etc.”) while asking us to “Address my posts, not me.” Why, because he’s Israeli?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1) What on earth are you again babbling about ? what makes you think that lying and distorting what was said will have any kind of positive effect for your nonsense ?
            I have no problem repeating this (again), since the posts are right there above.
            This is what you said: “except in Ariel, Ma’aleh Adumim, E1, the Jordan Valley and any other place”.
            Did you or did you not say this ? this is a simple question.
            This is what you said “any other place I deem as ‘strategic’ or nifty for the Jewish Nation”. Did you or did you not say this ? again, a simple question.
            This is a blatant lie. I never said ‘any other place or anything else I deem as ‘strategic’. As you are well aware, since I explained this to you in detail about 20 times before, I was referring to the settlement blocs Israel was going to keep, which make about 5-6% of the West Bank.
            Nothing else. Do you understand ? is this somehow too complicated for you to grasp ? I explained this again and provided the actual evidence showing where those 5-6% exist, nothing remotely like what you were saying.
            It’s not “block my neighbor’s driveway with a steel rod one inch” or any other similar nonsense. Look at the maps, look at the evidence you ignored to this moment. Provided by the Palestinians no less.
            This is a great example of you lying about my posts, about what you said. How you twist what I said, trying pathetically to make it fit your version of reality.

            More to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “what gets called a “fact” is a contentious interpretation masquerading as a “fact.”” -> How does a fact based on evidence, provided by the Palestinians, which you refuse to touch and refute, is ‘interpretation masquerading as a “fact” ? do explain.
            “For example, “Mahmoud Abbas’s undying real aim is the destruction of Israel” -> his organization’s goal is ending Israel and they see all of Israel as theirs. They also refuse to accept Israel’s legitimacy. I proved this to you so many times, you are yet to refute the evidence.
            You either ignored it or made some of the most hilarious excuses I have ever seen to avoid addressing it (“I discount it”, “the Palestinian leadership is not that important or influential”) and of course you lied and claimed the evidence didn’t exist when it was posted for all to see in the Facebook comments section. You also apparently “don’t do Facebook”. Evidence which includes the PLO leadership yelling what I’ve been saying in your face. If their maps and symbols/emblems (which show all of Israel as theirs) were too subtle for you.
            “The PLO Charter says so” -> are you denying this ? are you that deep in denial ? or are you that clueless that you are not familiar with the PLO charter ?
            “He does this over and over” -> what a coincidence! you either claim the evidence doesn’t exist or simply ignore it. Repeatedly. Why is dealing with reality such an uncomfortable thing for you ?
            “and remonstrates, “again, prove me wrong” -> right, asking you to attempt and refute my posts you claim are wrong and address my evidence is asking too muuch. It might shatter your globe of denial.
            “wants everyone to spend all day mired in these trenches of misleading “facts.”” -> not everyone, just you. I refuted your clueless nonsense in detail. I showed how you are a liar, in detail. Over and over again and you seem to be in shock when I ask you to refute my posts or address my evidence when you claim they are “tripe”.
            I even numbered them for your convenience right here on this page. Start with #1, it’s a simple yes or no question. I highly doubt it’ll take you all day. You ignored it so far about 7 times.
            “misleading propaganda” -> I ask again: show it. Prove it. Why can’t you do this ?

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 3): “Hence, tripe” -> lie to yourself as much as you like, call it whatever you want. the facts and reality aren’t going to change no mattter how much you really, really want it to.
            “these superb +972 articles” -> oh yes, I addressed this specific one in my Facebook post. Like I did others in the past.
            “to cut east Jerusalem off from the West Bank” -> so when East Jerusalem, or in a different case neighborhoods in it, were offered to the Palestinians as part of the peace negotiations, this happened in an alternate reality ?
            You bring a post from almost 13 years ago. Tell me, did the plan came through ? I’m guessing you didn’t check the date on that article and not aware of the fact that the plan was frozen and didn’t became a reality.
            Just another example of you not knowing what you’re talking about, as usual.
            “enclose Ariel is no big deal” -> so now you’re moving the goalposts ? Ariel is not going to be part of any future Arab state and the Palestinians are well aware of this.
            “doesn’t impair the contiguity of a Palestinian state” -> doesn’t look that way since reality suggests there will be 2: Gazastan and WestBankastin.
            “hey can tunnel under, those mole rats” -> the irony of the finding of elaborate tunnels dug by Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists must be lost on you.
            “unstated implications that Ido wants everyone to ignore” -> this is a fine example of you claiming absolute nonsense about me. Nice future reference.
            “gratuitous name caller” -> aaand once again you ignore how when I say you’re a liar I literally explain in detail why that is, which you promptly ignore of course.
            “while asking us to “Address my posts, not me.”” -> yes it’s preposterous asking you to actually address the posts where I prove how you’re a clueless liar and back up your claims.
            “Why, because he’s Israeli?” -> no, because that’s what adults do when faced with an argument. Not having a temper tantrum and ignore posts and evidence, also lying and name calling.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Look, I’m well satisfied that I’ve exposed your games for what they are. The job is done. You disagree. That’s OK. I’m not going to get sucked back in to the very games I just exposed. Feel free now to unleash another dishonest and abusive diatribe and indulge your obsession with me. To me you’re kind of like an ultra-small scale version of what John Cassidy calls “the great Orwellian shit spreader.”
            https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/donald-trumps-survival-strategy-chaos-diversions-and-lily-livered-republicans/amp

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “I’m well satisfied that I’ve exposed” -> um, I just explained in detail how again I proved you are a clueless liar and this is your pathetic response ? and of course you again ignored my posts. And of course you again refuse to answer one simple question. And of course you again refused to address the evidence I provided. It doesn’t exist if you completely ignore it, right ? and you are offended when I call you a pathetic joke ? this is exactly the reason. You’re behaving like a child.
            hey, but at least you are satisfied with yourself. You got this going for you. Which is nice.
            “your games for what they are. The job is done” -> why are you still lying to yourself when the posts you ignored are right there ? you think saying to yourself “the job is done” somehow cancel their existence ? what game ? what are you talking about ? I again showed in detail how you were wrong, how you lied, how you again and again refuse to address the posts where I show this in detail. Amazing.
            “You disagree. That’s OK” -> nope, this is you again lying to yourself. Facts and reality are not an opinion. There is no disagreement. You are simply wrong, you are simply a liar, you have no idea what you’re talking about as I showed again here in detail.
            You keep saying this to evade my posts. Sorry, this is just you being pathetic. Ignoring my posts won’t make all of this go away no matter how much you lie to yourself.
            “the very games I just exposed” -> and some more lying to yourself. The only thing you exposed is how you are not familiar with the facts I stated, for example about the frozen E1 expansion which you now avoid addressing.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “Feel free now to unleash another dishonest and abusive” -> this is rich coming from someone who as I showed here is a liar who refuses to address the posts where I show in detail how he’s clueless. How many times have you ignored the list of topics you ignore here repeatedly ? 8 times ?
            A reminder:

            1. You made a claim about the Jewish nationality. You didn’t answer my question. Yes or No ? this is not a complicated question.
            2. You said some nonsense about the Palestinian nationality which I never did, I never said the Palestinians never existed. I said the Palestinian nationality is a recent creation and historically a Palestinian nation and country never existed. The people sure did before they adopted the name ‘Palestinians’. Why are you ignoring this again ?
            3. You ignored everything I said as a respond to your nonsense about “Jew-blood-craving Arab zombies”.
            4. You claimed I need to go back to being racist, I pointed out how I stated a fact, not only backed up by the article itself but by evidence I provided in my post in the Facebook comments section, taken from Ha’aretz no less. Which you ignored of course.
            5. You completely ignored my post and evidence about the West Bank percentage section, how you were wrong (twice).
            6. You were wrong about Israel building in the E1 expansion, not aware it was frozen some years ago.

            “To me you’re kind of like an ultra-small scale” -> to me you just attempted to change the subject again. How pathetic can you get ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            P.S: What is this “E1 is frozen” bullshit? Yes, until recently the expansion of E1 was largely frozen under U.S. pressure, and for no other reason—which pressure is now largely dissolved under the reign of the great Orwellian shit spreader—but you must think we are children if you think you can slip by us the reality that Israel would not now be pulling out all the stops on trying to brutally remove the residents of Khan al-Ahmar, which sits just outside the area mapped for E1, if Israel did not fully intend to expand E1 with gusto just as soon as the international community lets down its guard or is distracted. (You haven’t been following Israel’s twists and turns on this ruthless enterprise?) That, after all, is how organized crime works, that is how mobsters behave. Ido, seriously, you must think we are children born yesterday and that we can’t read. After all the ruthless, sneaky, conniving shit the settlers pull, you are seriously trying to tell us that “E1 is frozen” is some kind of meaningful guarantee? Now I’ve heard it all. In fact, “E1 is frozen and I guess you didn’t know, because you are clueless, and just another example of you not knowing what you’re talking about, as usual” is classic, signature Idogellerian bullshit.
            Ok, we dissected that bedraggled, straggling specimen and pinned it to the dissecting board. We are definitely done.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Aaaaand again you ignored almost everything I said and the evidence I provided, etc. The usual.
            You of course ignored also what I said about the West Bank regarding the percentage Israel will keep, contradicting your “any other place, any other place deemed ‘strategic’ or nifty for the Jewish Nation’. You lied about what I said and ignored the evidence I provided.
            “which pressure is now largely dissolved” -> I ask again, since you ignored it the last time: You bring a post from almost 13 years ago. Tell me, did the plan came through ? did it became a reality ? is this a difficult question ? why did you ignore it ?
            “residents of Khan al-Ahmar” -> we discussed this in length where I explained in detail backed by evidence (you ignored of course) how they are no different than any other Beduin illegal squatters, similar to others which were removed. They lied about their history there as proved in court, the only reason the Palestinians are taking such an interest in them is because that region sits on one of the key areas in the “Fayyad Plan” vision.
            https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/12416/palestinian-illegal-building

            “You haven’t been following Israel’s twists and turns” -> I have, that’s how I know the plan was not carried out. That’s how I know you were talking nonsense again.
            “you must think we are children” -> well, based on how you ignored my posts again and evidence, how you lie and twist what I say, you could have fooled me.
            “we can’t read” -> as evident by your repeated skipping of post after post and evidence, that is a possibility. Or selective reading ?
            “E1 is frozen” is some kind of meaningful guarantee?” -> at the moment, yes. As evident by the facts on ground. I’m assuming pending the return of the negotiations process when the Palestinians decide to face reality about Israel not going away anytime soon.
            “signature Idogellerian bullshit” -> squirm and evade my posts as much as you like, the fact remains that I am right. Again.
            “we dissected that bedraggled, straggling specimen and pinned” -> you ignored my posts and evidence again and lied some more as the posts above clearly show.
            “We are definitely done” -> would you like me to repeat the posts you ignored, your lying clueless nonsense, and the evidence you skipped again ? maybe you missed it. 12 times.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            I see.

            ‘“E1 is frozen” is some kind of meaningful guarantee…at the moment, yes. As evident by the facts on ground.’

            What amazing, and so typical, right wing Israeli dishonesty. Like the fact on the ground that Israel is tenaciously trying by hook and by crook to remove a Palestinian village called Khan al-Ahmar? That fact on the ground? You think you can pass off on us the most obvious deviousness, Ido. It’s preposterous! And then you tell us that the Palestinians are only “interested” in this village because it sits in a “key area,” as if the Israelis are “interested” in it for any other reason than that it sits in a “key area”–bordering on the current E1. So the Palestinians’ ”interest” is somehow suspect but the Israelis’ “interest” is not?? Really, Ido, you continue to think we are children born yesterday. Just amazing. I’m done. Whatever else needed to be said here I said below. (And we will not rehash your incredible, repetitive dishonesty about the history of Khan al-Ahmar – any reader here can spend twenty minutes reading the true history or Khan al-Ahmar on +972 Magazine—and see for himself what devious “gatestone institute” nonsense Ido is peddling here. “Oh but I linked to facts, evidence, proof, in detail!” Bullshit. More bullshit from the tiny Orwellian shit spreader. I will not answer this further.)

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            To other readers who want to learn the real story, this is a good place to start (and then one might read the links in the ‘Related Stories’ box):

            By +972 Magazine |Published December 18, 2018
            Khan al-Ahmar: Setting the record straight
            The story of Khan al-Ahmar has been told countless times in the media in recent months. The way it is being told, however, is chock full of misconceptions. Here’s the real story behind the embattled village.
            By Angela Godfrey-Goldstein
            https://972mag.com/khan-al-ahmar-setting-record-straight/139270/

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): ““E1 is frozen” is some kind of meaningful guarantee” -> Again: you were wrong. Do you understand ? your post from 13 years ago was a not so subtle hint. The plan never became reality, I explained all of this above.
            “What amazing, and so typical, right wing Israeli dishonesty” -> what’s amazing is how you still ignore almost all my posts including the one about this page’s article.
            “to remove a Palestinian village called Khan al-Ahmar” -> Again: went over this specific issue with you in detail in the past, also explained it on this page 3 posts above.
            “You think you can pass off on us the most obvious deviousness” -> what on earth are you talking about ? you were wrong, deal with it. Now how about addressing all the posts you ignored ? the evidence ? why can’t you ?
            “Palestinians are only “interested” in this village because it sits in a “key area,” as if the Israelis are “interested” in it for any other reason” -> you mean besides that it sits on land in an Israeli township ? in area C ? see the link I provided 3 posts above.

            “the Palestinians’ ”interest” is somehow suspect” -> it’s not suspect at all. It’s beyond obvious and that’s why they focus on these Bedouin illegal squatters and not the hundreds others, as I said above.
            “to think we are children born yesterday” -> based on how you ignore my posts and evidence and your lies, especially the pathetic one I showed below, I’m starting to think that you are. And using the royal “we” is ridiculous but adorable.
            “I’m done” -> as opposite from the other times you were done above ? hilarious..

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “Whatever else needed to be said here I said below” -> and I answered you below, in detail.
            “devious “gatestone institute” nonsense Ido is peddling here” -> oh yes, a pro-Palestinian news blog is definitely not biased about this. I’m still waiting for them to post the part where it was proven in court the Bedouin were lying about their history in the area.
            “Bullshit” -> then prove it. Show it. Back up your claims. See this is what we adults do. Why can’t you ? why aren’t you able to address my posts refuting your clueless nonsense ?
            “tiny Orwellian shit spreader.” -> next you’ll start crying and call your mother ? hysterical.. see, this is what ad-hominem is since you so far seems to have no clue what that means.
            “I will not answer this further” -> I’ll try to cope with this disaster.

            “To other readers who want to learn the real story” -> sure, reading a pro-Palestinian news blog who posts some of the most ridiculous lying nonsense I have ever seen is a good place to start. Why not tell the good readers to just skip my posts ? you did it before, remember ? when you were trying very hard to ignore posts where I showed how you were your usual clueless liar. That was one of the funniest things you ever did. I remember it fondly.

            Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          But that aside, I AM glad to see that Ido kind of, sort of agrees with Professor Mona Khoury-Kassabri, except he couldn’t resist putting his racist spin on it all. But here’s the interesting thing too. Ido wants to impress us with how basically violent “the Arabs” and their culture are but at the same time refuses to see the Jewish violence-proneness and Jewish violence-preferring and Jewish violence-attunedness illuminated by Noam Sheizaf:

          Violence was never gone, so it cannot ‘return’
          https://972mag.com/violence-was-never-gone-so-it-cannot-return/66624/

          Why do we only listen to violence?
          https://972mag.com/why-do-we-only-listen-to-violence/117773/

          Professor Mona Khoury-Kassabri says that “What we have here is a community that has internalized violence as a solution” and of course she is right but the thing also is that “a community that has internalized violence as a solution” could’t be a more accurate description also of Israel and it’s approach to all Palestinians including non-violent protestors and it’s approach to the Bedouin citizens in the Negev and Bedouin residents of Khan al-Ahmar and it’s approach to refugees. And the same Israel wouldn’t dream of touching a hair on the delicate head of violent, assaultive settlers for no other reason than that those settlers are Jews. That’s racism. That’s apartheid.

          P.S:”this has nothing to do with my post” — Ido’s well-worn escape hatch. Sung to the tune of “Slip out the back, Jack, make a new plan Sam….”

          Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          But that aside, I AM glad to see that Ido kind of, sort of agrees with Professor Mona Khoury-Kassabri. Except he couldn’t resist putting his racist spin on it all. But here’s the interesting thing too. Ido wants to impress us with how basically violent “the Arabs” and their culture are but at the same time refuses to see the Israeli Jewish violence-proneness and violence-preferring and violence-attunedness illuminated by Noam Sheizaf:

          Why do we only listen to violence?
          https://972mag.com/why-do-we-only-listen-to-violence/117773/

          Professor Mona Khoury-Kassabri says that “What we have here is a community that has internalized violence as a solution” and of course she is right but the thing also is that “a community that has internalized violence as a solution” could’t be a more accurate description also of Israel and it’s approach to all Palestinians including non-violent protestors and it’s approach to the Bedouin citizens in the Negev and Bedouin residents of Khan al-Ahmar and it’s approach to refugees. And the same Israel wouldn’t dream of touching a hair on the delicate head of violent, assaultive settlers for no other reason than that those settlers are Jews. That’s racism. That’s apartheid.

          P.S:”this has nothing to do with my post” — A well-worn escape hatch. Sung to the tune of “Slip out the back, Jack, make a new plan Sam….”

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            half a day, still no post, take #2:

            (part 1): “Ido kind of, sort of agrees” -> I don’t agree with the religious spin, but with the fact that he admits what the problem is which is beyond obvious if you are familiar with reality.
            The second link I provided shows exactly what I’m talking about so you’ll probably continue to ignore it repeatedly.
            “couldn’t resist putting his racist spin on it all” -> what are you talking about ? what racist spin ? Again: how does stating a fact, backed by actual data, actual statistics and spelled out for you from a link to Ha’retz no less, is ‘a racist spin’ ?
            you are again igoring this question. I’ll just number it for your convinience (#3).
            “how basically violent “the Arabs” and their culture are” -> you can lie to yourself until you are blue in the face, reality and actual facts clearly show how by comparison to the general population, Arab society is ineed inherently more violent by every measurable statistic. And of course not just guns.
            “refuses to see the Israeli Jewish violence” -> why are you changing the subject again ? how on earth does this affect anything I was saying ? and you blamed me (on December 16, 2018) for “whataboutery” ?
            “could’t be a more accurate description also of Israel and it’s approach” -> this is not about Israel. This is about Arab society and is similar to other Arab countries, not just Israel.
            The reasons are mentality, strict patriarchal society and tribal culture related, nothing to do with Israel no matter how much you really want it to be.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): Sure, I’ll change the subject again if you insist. To your usual nonsense which I addressed about 40 times once you address the posts you again ignored, here I’ll repeat them for you:

            1. You made a claim about the Jewish nationality. You didn’t answer my question. Yes or No ? this is not a complicated question.
            2. You said some nonsense about the Palestinian nationality which I never did, I never said the Palestinians never existed. I said the Palestinian nationality is a recent creation and historically a Palestinian nation and country never existed. The people sure did before they adopted the name ‘Palestinians’. Why are you ignoring this again ?
            3. You ignored everything I said as a respond to your nonsense about “Jew-blood-craving Arab zombies”.
            4. You claimed I need to go back to being racist, I pointed out how I stated a fact, not only backed up by the article itself but by evidence I provided in my post in the Facebook comments section, taken from Ha’aretz no less. Which you ignored of course.
            5. You completely ignored my post and evidence about the West Bank percentage section, how you were wrong (twice).

            “this has nothing to do with my post” — A well-worn escape hatch” -> right, pointing out you’re changing the subject and evading addressing my posts showing how you you’re a clueless liar, exactly like you just did, pointing out hoe you’re ignoring my evidence,
            exactly like you just did, is “a well worn escape”. Your projection technique keeps evolving. I’m somewhat impressed.

            “Violence was never gone, so it cannot ‘return’” -> of course. there is no ‘cycle of violence’. The Palestinians’ terrorism is about Jews being alive and Israel’s existence and that is not going away despite multiple efforts of Arab countries in the last 70 years.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            A day passed, still no post. Take #3:

            (part 1): “Ido kind of, sort of agrees” -> I don’t agree with the religious spin, but with the fact that he admits what the problem is which is beyond obvious if you are familiar with reality.
            The second link I provided shows exactly what I’m talking about so you’ll probably continue to ignore it repeatedly.
            “couldn’t resist putting his racist spin on it all” -> what are you talking about ? what racist spin ? Again: how does stating a fact, backed by actual data, actual statistics and spelled out for you from a link to Ha’retz no less, is ‘a racist spin’ ?
            you are again igoring this question. I’ll just number it for your convinience (#3).
            “how basically violent “the Arabs” and their culture are” -> you can lie to yourself until you are blue in the face, reality and actual facts clearly show how by comparison to the general population, Arab society is ineed inherently more violent by every measurable statistic. And of course not just guns.
            “refuses to see the Israeli Jewish violence” -> why are you changing the subject again ? how on earth does this affect anything I was saying ? and you blamed me (on December 16, 2018) for “whataboutery” ?
            “could’t be a more accurate description also of Israel and it’s approach” -> this is not about Israel. This is about Arab society and is similar to other Arab countries, not just Israel.
            The reasons are mentality, strict patriarchal society and tribal culture related, nothing to do with Israel no matter how much you really want it to be.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): Sure, I’ll change the subject again if you insist. to your usual nonsense once you address the posts you again ignored, here I’ll repeat them for you:

            1. You made a claim about the Jewish nationality. You didn’t answer my question. Yes or No ? this is not a complicated question.
            2. You said some nonsense about the Palestinian nationality which I never did, I never said the Palestinians never existed. I said the Palestinian nationality is a recent creation and historically a Palestinian nation and country never existed. The people sure did before they adopted the name ‘Palestinians’. Why are you ignoring this again ?
            3. You ignored everything I said as a respond to your nonsense about “Jew-blood-craving Arab zombies”.
            4. You claimed I need to go back to being racist, I pointed out how I stated a fact, not only backed up by the article itself but by evidence I provided in my post in the Facebook comments section, taken from Ha’aretz no less. Which you ignored of course.
            5. You completely ignored my post and evidence about the West bank percentage section, how you were wrong (twice).

            “this has nothing to do with my post” — A well-worn escape hatch” -> right, pointing out you’re changing the subject and evading addressing my posts showing how you you’re a clueless liar, exactly like you just did, pointing out hoe you’re ignoring my evidence,
            exactly like you just did, is “a well worn escape”. Your projection technique keeps evolving. I’m somewhat impressed.

            “Violence was never gone, so it cannot ‘return” -> you are sort of right since to the Palestinian leadership and the various terrorist organizations the cause of violence is Jews existing in Israel and the existence of Israel in general and that’s not going away any time soon despite their wishes and efforts of Arab countries in multiple occasions.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            I don’t know what “claim” you think I made about “the Jewish nationality” except to regard it as something in the neighborhood of an IdoGellerian contentious oversimplification and Disney kitsch version of history and vehicle in your hands for justifying prejudice, anti-modern values and simultaneous falsifying anti-Semitizing.

            Exact, untruncated (your favorite trick!), quote in context with page link and date of the quoted text please.

            As for the rest of this obsessive two-part diatribe see my reference to John Cassidy’s apt coinage, above.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “I don’t know what “claim” you think I made” -> are you playing dumb again ? I don’t mind repeating it again, I’ll just copy/paste from the first post on this page which you ignored:
            You claimed that the Jewish nation doesn’t exactly exist. Now clueless nonsense of this magnitude should be studied. I actually provided you with lots of evidence, showing in detail you were talking nonsense. How did you take it ? you ignored it.
            It doesn’t exist if you ignore it, right ? did you say this incredible clueless idiotic nonsense about one of the oldest nations on earth ? yes or no ?
            “contentious oversimplification and Disney kitsch version” – twist and squirm around it as much as you like, evade it as much as you want, it’s not going away. Sorry to disappoint you.
            “anti-modern values and simultaneous falsifying anti-Semitizing.” -> what on earth are you talking about ? where do you pull this idiotic nonsense from ? did you claimed it or not ? are you ashamed for saying something stupid of that magnitude ?

            “quote in context with page link and date of the quoted text please” -> sure thing:
            https://972mag.com/what-netanyahus-idea-of-peace-looks-like/137916/

            Saturday, September 29, 2018 you said and I quote: “I guess you didn’t know that “the Jews are a nation” is obviously itself a kind of awkward simplification driven by your political imperatives, not definitive scientific all-encompassing historical truth”.
            This was my answer: “holy s@*t, one of the oldest nations on earth with shared ancestry, history, culture, tradition, language and even a distinct religion, spanning a couple of millennia is ‘obviously a kind of awkward simplification’.
            Naturally you ignored the post and evidence but that’s like saying ‘water is wet’.
            And yes, it is a historical truth. See the evidence on the page which you ignored of course.

            “see my reference to John Cassidy” -> ignoring the posts and evidence again and changing the subject again. You’re a pathetic joke.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You truncated the quote. And you removed the context.

            Un-truncated quote:

            ‘And I guess you didn’t know that “the Jews are a nation” is obviously itself a kind of awkward simplification driven by your political imperatives, not definitive scientific all-encompassing historical truth and a summation of where we stand today or some kind of real estate deed with God as your real estate agent.’

            Context partially restored (the context is fully restored, obviously, by accessing the original page):

            ‘I guess you didn’t know that all of the slanted narrative you offer about others narratives and about the narrative of “the Jews” whose self-appointed spokesman you are suffers from half truths and distortions and simplifications too. As well as the irrelevancies Bruce points out. And I guess you didn’t know that your narrative of “the Arabs of Palestine” whose self-appointed spokesman you are suffers from half truths and distortions and simplifications too. As well as the irrelevancies Bruce points out. And I guess you didn’t know that “the Jews are a nation” is obviously itself a kind of awkward simplification driven by your political imperatives, not definitive scientific all-encompassing historical truth and a summation of where we stand today or some kind of real estate deed with God as your real estate agent. And I guess you didn’t know that by the same token the Palestinians have every right to their own “nation” narrative even if some of them get carried away with assertions of historical truth and historical imperative as you do. And I guess you didn’t know that both Israelis and Palestinians have their own right of return narratives and the substantial difference is the historical time frames in which those return narratives play out, but they are each of them narratives which can be respected. And I guess you didn’t know that all of this you are peddling is narrative logic not scientific causal logic, with all the methodological strengths and weaknesses that entails. (You won’t understand any of this but I don’t feel it is my duty to convince you. I only need to explain things truthfully, no matter who this scandalizes and who is muttering in the background “I guess you didn’t know”.) And I guess you didn’t know that I already told you that none of this by you, including what you say and what some Palestinians somewhere say, negates Bruce Gould’s point: “The fact that there was never a COUNTRY called ‘Palestine’ is irrelevant, it’s silly, it’s ridiculous.
            As far as your “‘giving’ the Palestinians almost all the West Bank,” this is like a used car salesman telling me he is “giving” me almost all of the car except a few unimportant details like the carburetor and the tires and the transmission and the radiator but “its a swell car you lucky guy I am so generous! Oh, and the price is a bit more than you reckoned for but this is your lucky day! What? Are you trying to steal the car or blow up my dealership? Huh?” You and Bibi are used car salesmen par excellence. It is not for nothing that “used car salesman” is a term applied to Bibi exceptionally often. We’re not buying.’

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “see my reference to John Cassidy” -> ignoring the posts and evidence again and changing the subject again.

            Why is an incisive comment on your aims and the style you use to achieve your aims “ignoring the posts and evidence again and changing the subject again”? Seriously, why are you exempt from commentary on any aspect of your posts and why is commentary on any aspect of your posts “changing the subject”? Because you’re Israeli?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “You truncated the quote. And you removed the context.” -> you are now lying about your own quote which I provided with the source page.
            Did you or did you not say ‘the “Jews are a nation” is obviously itself a kind of awkward simplification driven by your political imperatives ?
            did you or did you not say “‘Jews are a nation’ is not scientific all-encompassing historical truth” ? yes or no ?
            The rest of your nonsense somehow contradicts what you said ? what context was it ? your attempt at comedy ?
            You addition of “some kind of real estate deed with God as your real estate agent” is another idiotic nonsense as Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people, based on historic evidence I can bash you over the head with, not any ‘deed with God’.
            I proved to you so many times how the Palestinian nationality is a recent invention and their nationality (or country) never existed in history. You of course ignored it.
            Yes, Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people and that is an all-encompassing historical truth.
            Why not copy/paste what I answered your nonsense in full as well ?

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): My response:
            slanted ? you seriously didn’t know about this ? or are you playing dumb ?
            “narrative of “the Jews” whose self-appointed spokesman you are” – what the.. ? are you saying basic history, literally historic fact of the existence of one of the oldest nations in history is my “self-appointed narrative” ? are you insane ?
            “suffers from half truths and distortions and simplifications too” – please by all means, go right ahead. What is half truths ? distortions ? simplifications ? I really would like to see this one. This is great.
            “As well as the irrelevancies Bruce points out” – Right, the most integral point which the Palestinians base their entire narrative on is irrelevant. This is some good stuff for future reference.
            “the Arabs of Palestine whose self-appointed spokesman you are” – Again: basic Middle-Eastern history. Why are you saying such incredible nonsense ? I’m not history’s spokesman. It quite clearly speak for itself to anyone who is familiar with the actual historic facts.
            ““the Jews are a nation is obviously itself a kind of awkward simplification driven by your political” – holy s@*t, one of the oldest nations on earth with shared ancestry, history, culture, tradition, language and even a distinct religion, spanning a couple of millennia is ‘obviously a kind of awkward simplification’. This is amazing, it really is. Just for the fun of it I’ll post the historic evidence you for some reason choose to ignore or simply not aware of in the Facebook comments section. You just said one of the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Ever.
            “not definitive scientific all-encompassing historical truth” – um, it’s literally scientific historic proof. One you can literally bang the evidence on your head. How can you say something this insanely stupid and expect anyone to take you seriously ?
            “real estate deed with God” – Again: actual historic evidence, literally. Not a deed with any deity. Actual evidence, see the links in the Facebook comments section. This is amazing. You really believe this incredible nonsense.
            “Palestinians have every right to their own nation” – sure they have, but their narrative is based on a lie. A fabrication of history. You seem to be one of the ‘Useful Idiots’ who take their lies for granted and choose to ignore actual history. This is great.
            “carried away with assertions of historical truth” – hilarious.. blatant lies and fabrication of history is just someone ‘getting carried away with the truth’. You can’t make this hilarious nonsense up. Well, you sure can.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 3): “Why is an incisive comment” -> because you again ignored my posts, again ignored my evidence, again ignored how I pointed out how you are a clueless liar who doesn’t know what you’re talking about.
            Because again you didn’t address my posts. Even after I numbered them for you because you seem to skip them every time.
            “Seriously, why are you exempt from commentary” -> what are you talking about ? I addressed everything you said, sentence by sentence. You’re the one who is exempt from addressing the posts for some reason, from backing up your claims, from addressing the evidence, etc.
            “commentary on any aspect of your posts “changing the subject”?” -> what ? um, seriously ? because when you simply ignore my posts and say “and this reminds me” and bring a link to something else while ignoring what I actually said, the evidence and how I pointed out you were wrong or where you lied, it’s called ‘changing the subject’.
            “Because you’re Israeli?” -> because you’re Ben ? and it’s tradition by now ? bottom line: you claimed the Jewish nation is an awkward simplification driven by political imperatives and the Jewish nationality is not scientific all-encompassing historical truth.
            And then you bring your entire post which also show how you think it exists because of a ‘deed with God’, thank you for providing the rest of the post. Simply ignoring basic historic facts and evidence which has nothing to do with any gods but with actual history itself. Evidence I provided on the original page.
            You claimed I removed the context and then provide the entire post which bury you deeper in your hilariously stupid claim about the Jewish nationality. Deny it as much as you want, lie to yourself as much as you like: Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people. A historic truth and not because of any deed with God.
            You were wrong, very much so.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            This is all such a hopeless wall of gellerian bullshit, such a muddle, prevarications wrapped inside prevarications inside sneaky evasions inside labyrinthine trails of past dialogue lost on everyone but you apparently, inside propaganda talking points inside illogic inside ad hominems inside all-or-nothing, black-and-white thinking inside elementary school-level grandiose confusions about “history” and “scientific historic proof” put to contentious contemporary right wing political aims masquerading behind preposterous fake posturing about a safely frozen E1 and honest, law-respecting, sincere-negotiation-seeking Israelis and such nonsense. It’s an unreadable, congealed mess. No one, including you, knows what you are talking about. It is a complete waste of time. As I said, above, I consider the job done.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            And do you even know what the word “truncated” means?? Apparently not. For the love of mike. You prove that you fling the word “lying” like a dog scratches an itch. With as much thought and as much coherence.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “This is all such a hopeless” -> oh yes, your lying is definitely hopeless. You took a bet, thinking I couldn’t bring your idiotic post about the Jewish nationality. Sorry to disappoint you but you lost.
            “wall of gellerian bullshit” -> um, your post is right there. I quoted you again, twice. I posted the actual page where you made that ridiculous post. Why on earth are you lying like this ? how do you think lying like this and saying this incredible nonsense can somehow assist your already embarrassing situation ?
            You re-post your entire post and you are upset that I post the response ? showing in great detail how you made that idiotic comment ?
            “prevarications wrapped inside prevarications inside sneaky evasions” -> lie about this as much as you like, your post is not going away. You of course refuse to answer my questions about what you said about it, I’ll post them again:
            The rest of your nonsense somehow contradicts what you said ? what context was it ? your attempt at comedy ?
            “lost on everyone but you apparently” -> um, it’s your own post. you own bullshit is lost on you ?
            “inside propaganda talking points inside illogic inside” -> Again, 4,751th time: what propaganda ? prove it. Show it. Back up your claims. Why is this still impossible for you ? how can you not realize that not being able to do so proves my point even more ?
            “grandiose confusions about “history” and “scientific historic proof”” -> why do you still cling to these absurd lies when the posts are right there ? the evidence is right there ? think it’s wrong ? challenge it, prove it, act like an adult. Why can’t you ?
            “preposterous fake posturing” -> lie about this as much as you like, the facts and reality are not going to change. You not being able to actually show any of this is not helping you as well.
            “about a safely frozen E1” -> um, the post is right there. You apparently had no clue the plan never became a reality. Your link from 13 years ago was a not so subtle hint. Again: you were wrong. Deal with it.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “law-respecting, sincere-negotiation-seeking Israelis” -> never said anything about it. Do you want me to re-post the evidence about the Palestinian leadership’s goals and agenda regarding Israel and the peace agreements ? for example how Arafat is on record admitting Oslo was a deceit ?
            I did a few times before, you ignored it every single time. As always dealing with the harsh reality is transparently too painful for you.
            “It’s an unreadable, congealed mess” -> I even numbered the sections of the posts you either ignored, lied about or had no clue about. You of course are still ignoring them as you did up there for 7 times.
            “No one, including you, knows what you are talking about” -> then allow me to clarify this for you: you are a clueless ‘Useful Idiot’ who has no idea what you’re talking about. You take Palestinian propaganda as fact even when I show you the Palestinian leaders themselves yelling what I’ve been saying in your clueless face.
            And you said one of the most idiotic things I have ever seen about the Jewish nationality. Something usually reserved for anti-semitic trash like the Palestinian President and his rants, anti-semite extraordinaire Abbas.

            “I consider the job done” -> of course you do, right after I provided the proof about what you said about Jewish nationality. And you of course ignored the majority of my posts and evidence but that’s like saying the sun is hot.

            “word “truncated” means?? ” -> yes and that’s why I explained how the continuation of your post digs you even deeper into the stupid hole, the post is right there above. Do you want me to copy/paste it ?
            “You prove that you fling the word “lying” like a dog scratches an itch” -> how meta of you, lying about lying. You haven’t done this in some time. Always a pleasure. Now how about addressing the posts where I showed in detail how you’re a clueless liar who doesn’t know what you’re talking about ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Job done! Sorry, you had your chance to come clean. You didn’t take it. Times up.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “you had your chance to come clean. You didn’t take it. Times up.” -> why are you talking to yourself ? I provided the post where you said that incredible nonsense about the Jewish nationality and refuted all your pathetic attempts to squirm and evade it.
            You also still ignore the many posts and evidence above showing in detail how you’re a clueless liar. And there is plenty of time, the posts and evidence are right there. You can start by apologizing for your idiotic claim about one of the oldest nations on earth.
            And then move to the posts you ignored, start with the ones about the page’s article which display your denial of reality in full force.

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