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Israel is reneging on its promise to release Palestinian prisoners

That’s the long and short of this latest ‘crisis’ in the peace talks.

This couldn’t be more black-and white, more writ in bold, if Israel set off fireworks in the night sky that spelled out: “WE LIED.” Netanyahu and his government – including, very forthrightly, house “peacenik” Tzipi Livni – are reneging on their promise to free 26 Palestinian and Israeli Arab prisoners on Friday.

The numbers, the names, the date of release were all agreed on between Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Abbas and overseen by Secretary of State Kerry when the current peace talks, such as they are, began last July. The Israeli cabinet approved the prisoner agreement on July 28 by a vote of 13 to 7 with two abstentions. But now Netanyahu and Co. are  saying they won’t free the prisoners – all in jail on murder charges since before the 1993 Oslo Accord – unless Abbas agrees to go on with the talks beyond their April 29 time limit, and to again set aside his plans to pursue statehood via international avenues such as The Hague.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas delivers a speech to released Palestinian prisoners, at his headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah, August 14. (Activestills.org)

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas delivers a speech to released Palestinian prisoners, at his headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah, August 14. (Activestills.org)

“[T]he keys to the prison doors are in the hands of Abu Mazen and the decisions he will take in the coming days,” Livni warned last week. Israel’s co-negotiator at the peace talks insisted that the government never made an “automatic commitment to release prisoners unrelated to making progress in negotiations.”

She’s lying. There are no conditions, no caveats in the deal. Abbas did not agree to make what Israel would consider “progress” in return for the prisoners’ release; he simply agreed not to go to the UN or make any other unilateral moves for the nine-month duration of the talks, and in return Israel agreed to release the 104 prisoners in four groups at the appointed times. (Israel freed the first 78 prisoners as promised; the 26 who were slated to be released Friday are the last on the list.)

It’s comic how ministers in the government are trying to weasel their way out of this. From the New York Times this week:

“We are entering a critical stage,” Yitzhak Aharonovich, one of five Israeli ministers responsible for approving the list of prisoners for release, said Sunday on Israel Radio. “Commitments must be honored,” he said. “The question is, does the other side honor the commitments?”

How have the Palestinians failed to honor their commitments? By declining to applaud each recent announcement of massive settlement construction? That is the only “progress” that’s been made since the talks began.

So Israel is going back on its word regarding the key commitment it made to Abbas and Kerry, the promise that allowed these peace talks to go forward in the first place. Abbas says he isn’t standing for it, and the Palestinians are accusing Israel, with 100 percent justification, of “political blackmail.”

>Read +972’s full coverage of the peace process

And what is Kerry doing? He’s in Amman today (Wednesday) trying to talk Abbas into agreeing to extend the peace talks, which very likely would get Netanyahu to agree to release the last 26 prisoners. In other words, Kerry is trying to get Abbas to do something he really doesn’t want to do in return for something Israel already promised to give him.

If Kerry had any backbone, he would tell Netanyahu, “Either you keep your word and release those prisoners on Friday, or you and your country will pay a heavy price.” Fat chance of that.

It would be nice, though, if the world outside America and Israel realized that this new “crisis” in the peace talks, the one over the prisoner release, is about nothing more or less than Israel breaking its side of the agreement. As in virtually every other dispute related to the occupation, it’s not that Israel and the Palestinians are both partly wrong and partly right, it’s that Israel is completely wrong and the Palestinians completely right.

Related articles:
How they once more speak of ‘Palestinian rejectionism’
Obama gives the Palestinians an insurance policy

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    1. Danny

      If Kerry had any backbone, he would say to Netanyahu: “Either you release those prisoners as you promised, or we are finished with the peace process. It’s as simple as that. And by finished, I mean the U.S. is finished with Israel. The next time you want to talk to your friends at AIPAC, you can do that via teleconference because we won’t grant you or your government any more visas to enter the U.S. You lying sack of horse manure.”

      Reply to Comment
    2. Shaun

      What “commitments” have the Palestinians been held to? They’ve been forced into these phony negotiations and they need to show some kind of results to the Palestinian street.
      Netanyahu now wants to be able to do the same.

      Reply to Comment
      • Johnboy

        Shaun: “What “commitments” have the Palestinians been held to?”

        *sigh*

        The commitments that both sides entered into before the talks began were these:
        a) Israel would release those prisoners in four stages,
        and in return:
        b) The PLO would refrain from going back to the UN and the ICC.

        Now…..
        Q: Has the PLO gone back to the UN and the ICC?
        A: No, it has not.

        CONCLUSION: The PLO is living up to its commitment.

        Q: Is Israel going to carry out all four stages of that prisoner release?
        A: No, it is not.

        CONCLUSION: Israel is reneging on its commitment.

        Honestly, this isn’t a difficult concept: parties are bound by the commitments they **make**, not by the commitments you Wished That They Had Made.

        Reply to Comment
    3. Bar

      You must be furious, Larry, when you think of the horrific things being done by the Israeli government in your name. I can’t imagine how hard it is for you to know that you will miss yet another public, televised ceremony where Abbas praises some Palestinian mass murderer of Israelis.

      The most important outcome here as far as you’re concerned, however, is that you can continue to excoriate Lieberman for suggesting that an imaginary line be moved westward so that Arab villages and towns would be incorporated into Palestine. You see, if Israel releases any Israeli Arabs to the PA’s leader, guess what that implies regarding who is whose leader? Yup, before you know it, you’ll be writing op-eds about how Tibi is a vastly superior option to Abbas.

      You’re a tough cookie, Larry, and you’ll survive this.

      Reply to Comment
      • Danny

        “I can’t imagine how hard it is for you to know that you will miss yet another public, televised ceremony where Abbas praises some Palestinian mass murderer of Israelis.”

        You mean the way Israel praises mass murderers of Palestinians? You know, those kind old men whose cute little grandchildren don’t even have a clue that in 1956 granddad walked into an Arab village, placed bombs on the houses while the people inside slept and detonated them. Grandson or granddaughter will never know that, because that never happened, right?

        If you could ever bring yourself to take a good, long, hard look in the mirror – you might see something that shocks the hell out of you. You might see a Palestinian staring back at you.

        Reply to Comment
        • Vadim

          “You mean the way Israel praises mass murderers of Palestinians?”

          Both sides, and probably every country in the world, give praise to their soldiers. It’s a problematic deed, but that’s reality. However, Israeli military heroes are praised for deeds that actually did good to Israel. Their controversial deeds are controversial. They are discussed quite openly and many such heroes are criticized for these deeds. But Sharon for example is not honored because he supposedly murdered civilians – he is honored for his role in several wars. In contrast, Goldstein is a deplorable character to the vast majority of Israelis and so forth.

          The murderers in question are a completely different story. Their only deed is killing Jews. There’s nothing more. Not a thing. In addition, there’s no critique of this deed. It’s seen as an honorable.

          Something else, we can’t judge deeds performed 50 years ago by today’s standards. It’s wrong, for both sides.

          I don’t have any problem with commemorating Egyptian soldiers that have fought against us. There’s nothing wrong with it. But I find honoring (and fighting for the release of) people whose ONLY accomplishment is murdering civilians because they were Jewish to be morally crippled.

          We do look at ourselves in the mirror, not less than any other country in the world, and probably much more than our neighbors do.

          Reply to Comment
    4. If you could argue against what I wrote, you would have, so your decision not to is as good as an endorsement. Appreciate it.

      Reply to Comment
      • Bar

        Larry, I can’t argue against what you wrote because it is an opinion piece. I can disagree with your premise.

        I haven’t seen an official agreement concerning the prisoner release so I can’t comment about the actual decision not to release these murderers and whether it is a violation of trust or not. I think it can fairly be stated that the Palestinians did not fulfill their part of the bargain considering they haven’t been negotiating with Israel for some months. Do you know where I can find a copy of Israel’s agreement to release these murderers?

        Reply to Comment
        • Sorry, I don’t.

          Reply to Comment
          • Bar

            I can’t find any agreement either. I was thinking about your article, though, and one detail about this agreement suggests that you may be wrong. Namely, the fact that the prisoner release was spread out over several months and in four cycles. This indicates that benchmarks were set at each juncture in order for the release to proceed. If the Palestinians have not upheld their end, the Israelis may be in their right to deny the last stage.

            Reply to Comment
          • I don’t think it’s feasible that the Palestinians would have signed or the U.S. supported an agreement that tied the prisoner releases to any sort of benchmarks in which “progress” was defined by Israel. I’ve never heard of such an agreement in which one side has that sort of power, except an agreement of surrender. (That Israel, even in the statements of Kerry and Obama, has been the main impediment to progress, not the Palestinians, is another matter.) It seems to me that the reason for the staggered release was 1) to ensure that the Palestinians didn’t bolt the negotiations early and go to the UN – it’s Israel and the U.S. that wanted these talks, not the Palestinians – and 2) to make the release easier for Israel to swallow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Bar

            That you haven’t heard of such an agreement is unfortunate, but business deals are structured in this way all the time. So are some hostage release deals where there isn’t trust. One issue that suggests that I might be right is that both Netanyahu and Obama were burned in the settlement freeze of 2010 when the Palestinians didn’t show up at the table until the final couple of weeks, mainly to demand an extension. It would seem wise for the US and Israel to have established a system to ensure Palestinians coming and staying at the table in this new round.

            Assuming that you’re right and I’m wrong, I can accept your second reason about enabling the Israeli public to swallow it (although some might argue that doing this ugly thing once is better than four times) but I think your other reason is wrong. The Palestinians going to the UN is fraught with danger for them because of the congressional mandate for the US to essentially exit any international body that accepts the Palestinians as a state. It’s a declaration of war on the US and could culminate in a boomerang effect where the Palestinians and their cronies become enemies of many UN bodies that will lose funding, not to mention the loss of that institution’s weight without US participation.

            Reply to Comment
          • “It would seem wise for the US and Israel to have established a system to ensure Palestinians coming and staying at the table in this new round.”

            That’s exactly what I said they did, in staggering the prisoner releases.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Bar: “Namely, the fact that the prisoner release was spread out over several months and in four cycles. This indicates that benchmarks were set at each juncture in order for the release to proceed.”

            No, it doesn’t “suggest” that at all.

            All it “suggests” is that Bibi wasn’t stupid enough to release all the prisoners at once, which would have allowed Abbas to immediately get up and walk out of the negotiations.

            Or, put another way: the release was staggered to ensure that Abbas has to stay in that tent for the full nine months of the negotiations.

            Your entire notion is ludicrous: if the prison release had to be tied to “progress” in the talks (i.e. your “benchmarks”) then that would have required the two sides to agree what those “benchmarks” were, and who was going to adjudicate whether (or not) they had been met (or not).

            Riiiiiiiiight.

            The alternative is much more credible i.e. the deal was this:
            a) Prisoners would be released, in exchange for
            b) Abbas staying in the negotiations.

            Both are easy to determine, and require **no** subjective judgement-calls by anyone.

            After all, the prisoners are either released on time Or They Aren’t.

            After all, Abbas is either still sitting there in the negotiating tent, or He’s On A Plane To The Hague.

            Clean. Neat. Easy to determine.

            Honestly, Bar, you do talk nonsense.

            Reply to Comment
          • Bar

            You may be right and you may be wrong. We have no evidence of what was said in those meetings which led to the agreement.

            What we do know is that the US reaction to Israel’s decision not to release has been quite muted. This indicates the Israelis are within their rights. When the US is pissed (i.e. settlement tender announcements) it has no trouble publicly excoriating Israel. Yet, in this instance, they haven’t.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Bar: “We have no evidence of what was said in those meetings which led to the agreement.”

            JPOST.COM: “US: No Palestinian prisoner release is violation of terms of talks”

            “Israel’s failure to release a final batch of Palestinian prisoners, scheduled for Saturday night, amounts to a violation of the terms of the original agreement reached between Israel and the Palestinians at the start of talks nine months ago, brokered by the United States, US officials have told their Israeli counterparts.”

            Bar: “What we do know is that the US reaction to Israel’s decision not to release has been quite muted.”

            No kidding, heh?

            Man, never known that to happen before, have you?

            Bar: “This indicates the Israelis are within their rights.”

            No, it indicates nothing of the sort. The USA has not given up hope that it can make Israel live up to that commitment, and until it *does* give up then it isn’t going to go public with its criticism.

            Honestly, do you have the slightest idea how diplomacy works?

            See the quote above: the USA is telling the Israelis in private that it knows that Netanyahu is violating the terms of that deal.

            Uncle Sam won’t say that in public WHILE it is saying those things in private.

            A few “leaks” to ol’ Herbie Keinon at JPost, sure, but nothing on the record. Nothing attributable to Kerry.

            That’s how diplomacy works, Bar.

            Reply to Comment
          • Bar

            Boy, oh boy, did you get lucky that article was published after I wrote my comment. Well at the time of my writing there still was no indication that Israel was in violation of the agreements.

            By the way, I’ll take Wilner at his word and that his report is valid, but you’ll notice there still isn’t any public comment about this issue by the USA.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Bar: “When the US is pissed (i.e. settlement tender announcements) it has no trouble publicly excoriating Israel.”

            I think it is telling indeed that Bar regards US State Department statements describing settlement expansion as “unhelpful” or “of concern” amounts to an American “excoriation” of Israel.

            Gosh! Such language!

            Next they’ll be saying outrageous things like “our position regarding the legitimacy of settlements is well known”.

            Oh, the horror! The horror!

            Bar, the US reaction to ANY Israeli move, no matter how provocative, no matter how detrimental to US interests, is to express its displeasure via the slapping of wrists with peacock feathers followed by a murmured “there, there, have another jet fighter, free of charge”.

            Reply to Comment
    5. Philos

      Larry, how do you reckon the “paper of record” will report this? Or any other part of the Anglo-American mainstream media?

      My two-cents, not that they’re worth much, is that Israel will get away with it. NYT and the rest of ’em will regurgitate crap like Livn’s verbatim without context and as if it’s Torat Sinai. Frankly, if it wasn’t for 972mag and other indy press I’d be very despondent right now. From the reportage on Venezulea, Ukraine, Syria, the economic crisis and climate change I am fairly certain that Chomsky’s propaganda hypothesis is correct. I’m not wont for conspiracy theories but the fact is you really can’t believe what you’re reading, hearing or seeing in the mainstream press.

      Reply to Comment
      • Philos, I linked to the NYT article on the issue – the reporter seems to be itching to say Israel broke its word, but she has to remain “objective” – i.e. to balance the truth and the falsehood. Will Israel get away with this? In the U.S. for sure. Elsewhere, I don’t think so. I think Israel is going to be hurt internationally by its whole handling of the Kerry talks.

        Reply to Comment
        • Philos

          This “balance” is always to the benefit of corporate or state power. In nearly all of Jodi Rudoren’s work out of Jerusalem I’ve found her reportage to be especially “balanced.” This is why I’m sceptical Israel will lose out in the media on this, and not just because of Rudoren.

          Reply to Comment
      • Vadim

        “Israel will get away with it”

        Oh no! Israel got away with not releasing convicted murderers for nothing! And it’s not on the main page of every paper! What a cynical world we live in…

        And the best part is – we still didn’t get away with anything, we still didn’t didn’t do anything “wrong”.

        Reply to Comment
    6. Tzutzik

      Yes it makes real sense (NOT), Israel promised to release the prisoners unconditionally. What would be in it for Israel to do so? Would the Palis praise Israel to high heaven for doing so? Would the eternal critics of Israel say how nice Israel was for doing so? And if they would (which of course they wouldn’t) so what?!

      Yes, no more peace talks but Israel should release murderers who have the blood of Israeli civilians on their hands (sarcasm).

      There are many of us who say they should not be released even if the peace talks DO go on. Oops, did I say peace talks? I should have said charade …

      Reply to Comment
    7. Someone lied at list construction, failed to do their homework, or is lying now–I guess the options are not mutually exclusive.

      I find two things hard to believe: that Israeli security, so the government, would not know that 14 Israeli Arabs were on the list; and that 14 Israeli Arabs were on the list in the first place. As Bar, above, notes, PA advocating the release of Israeli citizens violates the “Jewish State” is not our problem stand, as Israeli citizens are also an internal matter. So why would they be on the list? And how could Israeli security not see it at the start? All three sides are responsible, including the US, for the Israeli Arab presence, incompetence or otherwise.

      My view is that if the list was public from the beginning, or at least voted upon by the Israeli security cabinet at that time, then the Israelis cannot back out now without voiding their promise. It is true that the PA can sit down at the talks and do nothing, but negotiators often do that; as long as they show up, the PA has not violated their agreement, nor have they attempted to push recognition in the UN or the Hague.

      The real problem is that the talks are based on an impossibility. PA rep Erekat is quoted in the NYT as saying

      “We have been as committed as possible in order to finally allow our people a life free of occupation.”

      But the Jordan Valley shows that this goal is impossible as defined by Israeli security needs. Does anyone really believe that Israeli security will forego another recent Jenin, agreement or not? There will be no real removal of occupation, which is why I have thought the overarching solution push a mistake. A move towards economic development and some individual autonomy is being lost yearning for utopia. But both sides use utopia in their internal political economy: Israel to reluctantly (?) advance settlements, the PA to unify what government they have (Gaza excluded) through perpetual struggle.

      I vaguely recall Israeli security venting the 104 as no longer much of a threat, partly because aged. If you ever want to exit this conflict, both sides will have to say the same about one another. The 14 Arab Israelis are, however, even exterior to this logic. Someone, probably more than one, goofed up, and now the goof is being used to paint blame as the talks predictably lead nowhere.

      Reply to Comment
    8. Tzutzik

      Actually I condemn all parties, those who say they will only negotiate (pretend to) peace if Israeal would release cold blooded murderers of Israeli civilians as well as Israel for agreeing to such terms. I condemn both sides. I say those are obscene terms and a desecration of the memory of victims and their loved ones.

      I also condemn those so called friends who twist Israel’s arms to agree to such terms and those who insist that Israel must do anything for the dubious privilege of “just getting them to talk to us”. That is called extortion and as it turns out, under false pretences. Stuff them, they don’t need to talk to us unless they actually have something worthwhile to say, a willingness to actually try to reach a peace deal for instance.

      The idea of peace alone should be enough of a pay-off for BOTH parties. No extra bribery should be required for either side. Just my opinion.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ben Zakkai

        Israel is full of cold-blooded murderers who killed Palestinian civilians and got away with it, scot-free. Since they were not apprehended, detained, tried or convicted for their crimes, the Palestian Authority can’t use them as a bargaining chip in negotiations.

        Reply to Comment
        • Samuel

          Israel is full of cold blooded killers? Why stop there, Benny? Don’t hold back, get it off your chest. Why don’t you say what is really on your mind, let it all out maaaaan!

          Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Sure Israel is full of all kinds of people.

            Steven Plaut in Frontpagemag identified another segment of Israeli’s that need some attention.

            Article;
            “Lessons for Israel from America’s Civil War in coping with treason”.

            Quote;”Simply stated,Israeli’s who call for BDS warfare on Israel should have their own property seized,sequestered and confiscated by the State.”

            Well,it ain’t much,but it’s a start.

            After that a re-education internment camp would be a good idea,and if all else fails there’s transfer, imprisonment and execution.

            According to Jewish birthrates since WW2 there should be about 30 million Jews today worldwide.

            Since then 17 million took distance from Judaism ,not being able to identify with 1897 Zionism and what it’s doing to Judaism.

            Even if 60% of Israeli’s would underwrite transfer,and imprisoning self hating traitor Israeli’s they represent maybe 3 million Jews,less than 25% of Jews world wide,and 10 % of all people born Jewish since 1945.

            Samuel,your desperate sect is shrinking and I would call on all you hating Fascists to wake up.

            You’re a small group of renegade Jews,confusing rich Bankers with the work of HaShem.

            You’re in a dead end street,time and history are against you,and this demonizing other Jews that don’t buy into your narrative will only lead to hate and death.

            Keep on attacking Jews with a concience and a sense of history and future,that’s the best way for your sect to shrink even further and commit suicide.

            Please be carefull not to kill all Jews world wide in the process.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            The only endangered species of Jews are the Galut Jews.

            Within 100 years or so, only religious Jews will exist in the Galut. The rest will disappear. Not necessarily because they will be murdered. They will just intermarry and will blend into the locals.

            The rest of your post, Shachalnur is not worth responding to. It is just nonsense.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Samuel,

            17 million Jews have turned their backs on Judaism (temporarily?)since 1945 with assimilation rates sky high.

            Before WW2 the assimilation rates were about 4% in Europe.

            Untill now,in spite of the brainwashng since Kindergarden, 1 million Israeli Jews have decided to leave Israel permanently(20 % of Jews),and are building new lives and raise their children all over the planet.

            These numbers you can try to make up by importing Russian “Jews” and fast track conversions,but that’s lipstick on a pig.

            The aim is to concentrate all Jews in Israel and the US,where about 80% of WHAT’S LEFT OF ORGANIZED JUDAISM lives now.

            17 million Jewish born people world wide are not part of organized (Zionist) Judaism.

            If there would be a force hating Jews so much they would like to erradicate them all,they would love to concentrate all of them in two places(Israel and US) where they are trapped in case it’s time to push the button.

            Just like Jews got trapped in WW2 in Europe.

            Maybe you’ve missed it ,but the only ones still supporting Israel are the Adelson’s of this planet,and ofcourse
            the Bankers that sponsored and enabled the creation of Israel and made sure Judaism wouldn’t survive after WW2 in Europe.

            Israel is being dumped right now by their sponsors,and the Samson-option was woven into the fabric of this suicide bomb called Israel.

            You will see another exodus from Israel,it’s silently going on right now.

            Every Jew in Israel(suicide) and the US(Martial Law) is stuck in a deathtrap.

            Israel’s opponents(Arab countries allegedly,and US/Europe for sure)have all the weapons neccesary to blow up Israel whenever they want,never mind the Samson-option.

            This is by design ,and all Jews with survival instinct have no other choice than to take distance from Zionist controlled Judaism,Israel and the US.

            You refuse to study the ones that enabled your Utopia and are blind to the plans your sponsors have for you.

            You see the whole world as your enemy,but are clueless if it comes to the real enemy of Jews,the enemy from ,what you consider ,within.

            Zionism has failed,jews rejected it,17 million Jews took distance and Orthodox Jews declared you the enemy of Judaism.

            They know who’s running this show and refuse to be luxury slaves ,like you.

            After this sick horrorshow is over,Judaism will pick up the pieces and we don’t have to listen to the Fascist suicidal lunacy of Zionism anymore.

            You will have to continue your sect in the Bible Belt in the US,the only ones supporting you,since these Evangelists can’t wait for you to blow yourself up.

            70%+ of Jews world wide have already recognized you as a danger to their children and their lives,and became anti-Zionist,in silence or disgust.

            If you and your sect want to commit suicide for your Pharao,go ahead,but let Torah Judaism and Jews living according to real Jewish values,alone.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            Ah ok, I can’t resist, I’ll respond to a couple of this Shmuck’s comments (against my better judgement though because I know I am feeding a troll):

            “This is by design ,and all Jews with survival instinct have no other choice than to take distance from Zionist controlled Judaism,Israel and the US.”

            Survival instincts? In other words, the ones who distance themselves from us for that reason, prefer to prostrate themselves and live in humiliation just to survive? And probably not even really to survive. Such survival tactics certainly didn’t save Jews from past haters. Read up on the history of the inquisition and the Holocaust.

            “You see the whole world as your enemy”

            Do I? Where did anyone of us say that?

            “but are clueless if it comes to the real enemy of Jews,the enemy from ,what you consider ,within.”

            We are not clueless at all. Yes we see people like you as one type of internal enemy.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Samuel,

            Assimilation rates for Jews were 4% in 1940.

            Since WW2 Jewish population is stuck at 13,5 million.

            Based on Jewish birthrates there should be 30 million Jews today.

            17 million Jews have disappeared.

            Where are they ,and why did they stop being part of organized Judaism?

            From these 13,5 million Jews that are left ,about 5 million are anti-Zionist and 1 million Jews have left Israel permanently,and counting.

            That means that about 75 % of people born Jewish are not Zionists.

            According to your logic these 22 million Jews are all the enemy within.

            Anybody else might conclude that Zionists are the enemy within,like European Jewry concluded in 1897 when Zionism showed it’s ugly face.

            I’m still waiting for one of you London Bankerslaves to explain why these 22 million Jews are not an issue and anybody mentioning it is an enemy to you.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            “17 million Jews have disappeared.”

            Nu? And if you are not religious, you too will disappear since you live in the Galut.

            In your case, it is no loss.

            As for the rest, don’t get me wrong, we are not happy about it but you tell me, how on earth will they remain Jews if they shed their religion (as is the trend in all modern western societies, not just Jews)? Unfortunately, in the long term, the only non religious Jews who will still call themselves Jewish and maintain Jewish culture and customs, will be Israelis. The rest will inevitably blend into their surroundings.

            Why don’t they all come to Israel? Because they are used to being where they are, they have become complacent and materialistic. Most are good people and right now they support us by opening their purses but they are set in their ways and they have had enough of wars so they stay put. That is their choice. We respect it even though we know that will lead to them being lost to Judaism.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Please be carefull not to kill all Jews world wide in the process.”

            The only Jews who killed other Jews in recent history are the Kapos who helped the Nazi executioners in order to save their own skins

            AND …

            … Jews who adopted the religion of communism and some of whom helped Stalin and his henchmen create Gulags in which they murdered up to 50 million human beings amongst them many Jews.

            Which ones are you related to Shachalnur?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Shtutznik,

            What Jews I’m related to?

            My mother is a Spharadia,that makes me a Jewish Semite. Are you a Semite?

            I’m related to the Jews that rejected Zionism since 1897,related to dozens to family members killed in Europe during WW2.

            Related to the Jews that reject the official story of the Holocaust,the Jews that blame their neighbours for handing them over to the Nazi’s,that blame rich Jewish bankers in London and the US for supporting Hitler financially and ideologically(Kaiser Wilhelm Institute)for enabling the rise of Hitler and the Endlösung.

            Jews like Satmar,Netorei Karta and the millions of Jews that see Zionism for what it is;”A Program for the extermination of the Jewish People”.

            Related to the 70% of people born Jewish that refuse to be a slave of London Bankers and the psy-op called 1897 Zionism.

            You are part of hatefull sect of Banker slaves confusing London Bankers with HaShem.

            Zionism is not Judaism ,you and your Bankers have hyjacked Judaism and are destroying Judaism under orders of people who don’t care about Judaism.

            They give you money,power and land,but the price to pay will be to sacrifies all Jews for your Pharao.

            You will fail, you’ll shoot your own foot,my work is to avoid you dragging millions of Jews down with you.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Jews like Satmar,Netorei Karta and the millions of Jews that see Zionism for what it is;”A Program for the extermination of the Jewish People”.”

            Aha, you are part of the Netura Karta? That explains it all.

            Didn’t you guys attend the Holocaust denial hatefest that your buddy Ahmadinejad organised a while back?

            I’ll tell you what shacha my friend (not), if your kind of Judaism is our only destiny , then Judaism has no future. You are the tail that is trying to wag the dog but it ain’t possible , shacha baby, we will not only survive but we will thrive long after we will only talk of you as a minor distraction.

            Now, go take a chill pill. Sounds like you need it.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Wrong again,Shtutzi.

            For me the Rambam(philosopher,herbalist),and that’s all.

            But Satmar and Netorei Karta represent the opinion and argumentation of almost all European Jewry before WW2.

            European Jewry saw right through 1897 Zionism from the start.

            The First World Zionist Congress in 1897 had to be moved from Munich(Germany)to Basel(Switzerland) because of the total rejection by a.o. German, French and Dutch Jewry of this political program pushed by secular Communists and financed by London-,Paris-,Amsterdam- and Hamburg Bankers.

            They immidiately recognized that the plan was to destroy European Jewry and force them into Palestine.

            That’s why after WW2 millions of Western-European Jews went to the US,Canada,or stayed put,but refused to go to Israel.

            They know the real story.

            Many Jews agree with the argumentation of Satmar and Real Torah Jews,and you don’t have to love or hate religion to read their argumentation.

            Try it Tzutzile,they won’t bite,they are part of the few that are allowed to speak the truth without being called anti-Semite or selfhating Jew or worse by you and your friends.

            Unless you call them(Orthodox)and me(Jew,period) all these ugly names to discourage others,and yourself,from looking into what I claim.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            ” … what I claim …”

            Blah blah blah …

            That is what you claim Sachi baby …

            And your admission that it is akin to the “argumentation” (what kind of word is that? Pseudo English?) says it all.

            Begone devil. There consider yourself excorcised … LOL, LOL, LOL. Actually, please stay, you are entertaining in an odd sort of way. It breaks the mold of the usual stereotypes on this site.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Jews killing Jews recently?

            What about the Ringworm Affair and the Missing Yemeni Children?

            But they don’t count ,they were Jewish children with dark skin and and dark eyes.

            Was that why the Israeli Health Ministry was forcing Depo Proveera on Ethiopian Jewish women until last year,Oral Polio Vaccines were given to Israeli children and Fluoride is added to the tapwater.

            You should search “Georgia Guidestones” to get an idea what you’re dealing with.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Shacha the deceiver.

            Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews intermarry in Israel. There are no problems between us. It is an everyday event. I have Sephardi relatives too. We are brothers and sisters. Together we fight our enemies which includes little worms like you.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Well it looks like the Health Ministry in Israel has orders that contradict that fact.

            It was Israel that started to treat Mizrahi and Sfaradi Jews differently from Ashkenazi’s in the fifties upon arrival,and after that.

            It’s called Eugenics,and it’s a science more than a century old(read about the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute).

            The fact you don’t know what it is,is your problem.

            Ringworm affair and Missing Yemeni babies hit only non-Ashkenazi’s,and so did the Depo Proveera.

            There might be more important news from the Eugenics front though,and I know you read everything I give you.

            Guinea,AllAfrica.com-VOA-article-“Guinea;Development of antibodies rushed to treat Ebola outbreak in Guinea”by Jessica Berman about Dr.Erica Ollman Saphire(both Jewish),Scripps research institute,California.

            Combination of Ebola in Africa and MERS-CoV in Saudi-Arabia and Jordan with US Eugenics “doctors” moving in during an outbreak could be very bad news.

            The London Bankers are losing the global chessgame against BRICS and they are moving to the next level;Bioweapons.

            Outbreaks will be in Asia,Africa and Middle East.

            Educate yourself,you blind sockpuppet.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Yea and what else?

            Now get this into your feverish little head Shachi baby.

            Israel is here to stay. We together, Sephardim, Ashkenazim and the rest of the ingathered Jews have achieved miracles. From nothing, we built a vibrant thriving diverse and functioning modern society.

            Is there work left to do? Of course. Plenty of work. Are there problems to overcome? Of course there are. But we will overcome those too together as we overcame even more difficult problems in the early days. We will do it together, all of us, all Jews who returned here from all four corners of the earth. We could not have achieved this modern miracle unless we would have worked together that is why we will continue to do so in the future too, despite feverish attempts by little worms like you Shachalnur to sow discord. You won’t succeed, eat your heart out trying you little traitor (I say that assuming that you are actually Jewish rather than someone like the Palestinian Professor who you mentioned and who you promised that they would defeat Israel by driving us mad. Whichever, whatever you are, you won’t succeed we are too smart for you and you are too stupid).

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            You are smart, but your Pharao is even smarter.

            He owns 80% of the land in Israel.

            It’s his project,his tool and he’ll use it,or dump it as he wishes.

            He build, designed and paid for the Knesset,the Supreme Court and owns all what’s in it.

            “The inhabitants requested “Ha’am” to be replaced by [your Pharao]”(wiki).

            He gave you your “miracles”,and now it’s time to pay the price.

            The sooner you figure this out,the better it will be for all of us.

            You are becoming a paranoid sect,a suicide bomb,by design.

            You are not aware of it,but I believe there are forces in Israel that know.

            And it’s not just the Orthodox.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “The inhabitants requested “Ha’am” to be replaced by [your Pharao]“(wiki).”

            Funny you should keep on mentioning Pharao and fitting too …

            Do you know who you are (assuming that you ARE Jewish)? You are Korach.

            Korach complained to Moses for bringing Haam out of Egypt to die in the desert. He staged a rebellion against Moses, accusing him of a power grab. He and his entourage are swallowed up by the earth.

            That is what will happen to you too Shachi baby unless you mend your ways you pretentious little upstart.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Did you know your Pharao designed,paid and donated the land for the Israeli Supreme Court?

            The costs are secret,and it is forbidden to change anything about the design.

            Did you have a look at the wonderfull Masonic/Egyptian/Pagan symbolism in the architecture and interior design?

            Did you enjoy the pyramid on top of the roof,right over where the judges a seated?

            Did you discover ANY Jewish symbolism in this building?

            The one that build that is no Moshe Rabbenu.

            That’s an Edomite.

            You are smart,though.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Did you know your Pharao designed,paid and donated the land for the Israeli Supreme Court?”

            Did you know what Korach said to Moses?

            He said why did you bring us out from being slaves to Pharao in Egypt? We were perfectly happy as slaves but now we will die here in the desert, because of you Moses.

            You recognise yourself Shacha? No? Let me give you a hint: you are a modern day Korach.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            “We [are] perfectly happy as slaves of the Pharao”

            17 million Jews that turned their backs on Judaism and 5 million anti-Zionist Jews seem to disagree with you.

            So,if you’re happy being a slave,why bother with you?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “So,if you’re happy being a slave,why bother with you?”

            Feel free not to bother me.

            As far as being a slave, you are the one who is comfortable living where they treated us as slaves for 2000 years. Although their conscience has been tweaked since the Holocaust, I would not be 100% sure that they won’t do it again if times get bad and they’ll need to look for someone to blame. They might yet be coming for you and knock on your door. I don’t wish it, but it could happen and then, where will you go, Korach … Err ummm Shachi …. Err umm Shachalnur?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            You are trying to do it again,and this time we won’t let you.

            If you really want to,you can blow up yourself for your Pharao,but this time you will leave the rest of Judaism alone.

            All you have left is your wet Samson dream.

            It will only cause dirty sheets,nothing too worrying for the rest of the world.

            You are being taken out of power in Israel from the inside as we speak(shu-shu),not that you would notice.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “You are trying to do it again,and this time we won’t let you.”

            Are you feverish again, Shachi? Trying to do WHAT? AGAIN … ?

            Stop speaking in tongues. Don’t assume that everyone understands what is going on in that feverish confused brain of yours. Tell us so we can have a good belly laugh at your modern day blood libel, herr professor …

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “this time we won’t let you.”

            … Oh yea and I forgot to ask you. Who is the “WE” that you are referring to?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            What your sponsors are doing and what it means for Israel?

            You wouldn’t notice if it happened in front of your eyes.

            Try Ebola-Guinea-Dr, Erica Ollman Saphire-Scripps Research Institute-dr.Yoshihiro Kawaoke-Dr.Ron Fouchier-US Army Research Institute of Infectious Diseases-Mapp Biopharmaceuticals-“Saphire said limited supplies of the antibodies,SO FAR UNTESTED ON HUMANS,have been send to Guinea to help Ebola victims”(VOA AllAfrica.com).

            That’s what’s your Pharao is doing.

            And it’s happening now,while you are rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.

            Don’t worry,you won’t notice a thing,that’s how Eugenics functions.

            And inside Israel?

            Sheldon Adelson just took over Maariv and Makor Rishon,after Yediot Aharonot’s offer was too low.

            He controls most papers in Israel now.

            Judy Shalom Nir Mozes owns Yediot,and guess who she’s married to.

            You will see one after the other Israeli politician controlled by foreign Bankers being silenced by blackmail,accidental coma or whatever,untill the takeover is completed.

            Shu-shu stepping in,as we speak,I told you to watch ex shabak chiefs.

            No more time for Hasbablalbla,time for action.

            enjoy the ride!

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Stop babbling shachi and stop pretending that you care about bad things that may or may not be happening in Israel. Answer my question:

            What would Jews in Europe do without Israel if the hatefest against us would resume there?

            You are aware of the fact that hatred existed against us in Europe before modern Zionism? You have heard of the crusades? You have heard of the pogroms? You have heard of the blood libels? You have heard of the expulsions?

            You say that was long ago? Well, not really. It was a continuous uninterrupted progression from old times to the Holocaust. Not long before the Holocaust (in historical terms) You have heard of the Dreyfus affair? Of the Numerus Clausus? Of the book written by a Tzarist agent, “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” which became a best seller? Of “Mein Kampf”? Of more pogroms?

            So Sachi baby, good luck with trying to eradicate old hatreds against us. I for one wish you success with it but let me whisper in your ear. Your way of doing it is wrong. Not only because your facts are wrong but because your methods are wrong. Talking about Jewish bankers and evil Zionists is a dog whistle to all who hate Jews. It is joining their ranks and reinforcing what they have been saying all along, way before modern Zionism. So if you persist, then you are either stupid or more likely you are one of them. More likely you are not even Jewish and you think you can fool us. Here is news for you: YOU CANNOT herr Professor!

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            You spend quite a lot of time on a Jew-hating Goy ,who’s got his facts and methods wrong.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “You spend quite a lot of time on a Jew-hating Goy ,who’s got his facts and methods wrong.”

            Any complaints?

            I know how effective the Goebbelses and the Pravdas of this world can be unless their lies are countered.

            What is it that Mark Twain said?

            “A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”

            … so I have already put my shoes on to counter your lies. Does it upset you, Shachi baby?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Did you notice you are copying my way of writing?

            Sentences with spaces between them.

            Just like that.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            No I didn’t notice.

            But if I do, so what? After all you are a very clever fellow aren’t you, ya professor?

            Did you notice how I changed from “herr professor” to “ya professor”? After all you are that Palestinian professor that you tried to pass as your friend, not a German professor. Go on Shachi baby, admit it, you know I am right AND … the truth will set you free …

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            1.Nobody reads old threads.

            2.Rockefeller and Carnagie took control of all Universities in 1904 in the US and GB.
            Since then all professors are psychopaths part of the Eugenics control grid.
            Try professor Eric Pianka,Texas University,famous speech about humans being obsolete,better all die,hundreds of academics applauding with tears in their eyes.
            The sheer beauty of it all.

            3.Believing what the MSM are feeding you is not only stupid ,it’s dangerous.
            All they talk about is are part of the “don’t look here,look there”.
            You’ve got no clue what is going on in Ukraine,and how it will effect Europe and the Middle East.
            You have no idea what MERS-Cov in Jordan ,Saudi Arabia, H5N1 in Egypt,and Ebola in Guinea have to do with Syria and Israel.

            4. There will be no visible wars,only Syria option is still open for your Pharao,the rest is shut.
            The real war has been going on for 2 years in the form of leaks and blackmail,Snowden,US intelligence (contradictio in terminis),Shabak,Vicky Nudelman,Timoshenko,Sharon “accidental”coma,Lieberman,Olmert,Silvan Shalom,Obama(birth certificate,Gay Barry Satoro,Subud,Michael his “wife”),Clinton-Epstein pedo connection,leaks every day,more deadly than bullets.
            Especially in Israel,now Olmert has been flattened ,there will be revenge.
            Because of the geo political and viral developments there will be an (invisible?)coup d’etat in Israel,no more time to fiddle around, your Pharao is in a hurry,because he’s losing the war against BRICS.
            Everybody in Israel connected to the Pharao will be blackmailed and leaked into silence.
            It’s not your fault ,you’ve been conditioned to follow as a sheep,social engeneering and cognitive dissonance take care of the rest.
            You see enemies everywhere while the real threat is “having your back”.
            It has been happening to Jews for thousands of years,including the destruction of two Temples.
            And again you fall into the trap.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Nobody looks at old threads? Then why are you wasting your time here, Sachi baby?

            “Since then all professors are psychopaths”

            A lot are, a lot are indeed. You are amongst them Sachi baby.

            As for the MSM, I agree they are not a perfect source of information. But they are infinitely better than the sources that you derive your information from. Your sources are assorted internet sites promoting propaganda and disinformation to promote assorted agendas of Nazis, Communists and Arabs. You are either one of them (highly likely) and invent your disinformation in order to promote your anti Israel agenda or you completely lack any filters to sift reality from lies and fantasies. Either way, you are not persuasive to those of us who know how to think for ourselves and do research. You are not credible, Sachi baby. If you only bothered to read your own writings, you would realise how psychotic and desperate you sound.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Funny you never managed to debunk any of my facts and sources with any of your facts and sources.

            Just some unsourced balbla and ultimately ad hominem.

            To me it looks like you’re giving up,Ginger’s gone,and Bar’s chicken.

            If you can’t source any of your objections and opinions,I’ll ignore you.

            Don’t think you’re able to,or you would have tried at some point.

            So long, Cowboy.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “If you can’t source any of your objections and opinions,I’ll ignore you.”

            Actually I did. But you studiously avoided debunking my debunking of your BS. Here it is in a nutshell again:

            Your claim was that Zionism is a danger to Judaism and Jews.

            I proved to you that hatred of Jews existed long before the beginning of modern Zionism and that without Zionism, only religious Jews would survive. What percentage of Jews today are religious? About 20%.

            I also proved to you that without Israel, Jews, religious as well as non religious, would be at the mercy of those who hate us. That is what you are fighting for. And thats why I am confident that the last thing in your mind is our welfare.

            Reply to Comment
          • Bar

            Tzutizk, Shachalnur is somewhat of a lunatic antisemite. You would do well to let him froth at the mouth and ignore him.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            You are probably right. I might try and ignore him.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            somewhat,HassBar?

            “America is Nazi Germany” price tag today.

            These settlers understand more than you will ever understand.

            You two are ignorant NWO-Bankerslave sockpuppets,cheering stuff you have no idea about.

            You both have no idea what’s going on and your behaviour is understandable,since Hasbara was a powerfull weapon in the past.

            That’s over now,because TPTB,amongst them your Pharao,are dumping you,and without cover your Hasbara is becoming a weapon against Judaism.

            That’s by design,by the way,and you are just doing the work of the Pharao ,who is on the verge of creating Holocaust 2.0 for the Jews who are not awake.

            Ignore me,that’s better for everybody,and less rubbish on the commentboard.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Blah blah blah blah …

            Go see a psyshiatrist.

            Reply to Comment
    9. Vadim

      1. Releasing these murderers is wrong.
      2. Palestinian (and perhaps Israel as well) is not ready for the compromises required for a peace treaty or the end of the conflict.

      You’re actually criticizing Israel for a not doing a wrong and useless deed. Not only that, but we didn’t even get the chance to “not do it”.

      Larry, sometimes one has to stop and think. What is it I’m fighting for? Would releasing these murderers make our region a better place? What would it accomplish?

      Reply to Comment
      • Vadim, to me, freeing these killers is no cause for celebration (and I wrote about that on 972). But the deal was that Israel give the Palestinians either 1) recognition of the 67 borders as the basis for talks; 2) settlement freeze, or 3) prisoner release. This fucked-up govt chose 3). And on the basis of that promise, which was confirmed by a cabinet vote, the talks began. And now Israel is breaking its word. If it had that bad a problem with releasing prisoners, it could have chosen 1) or 2) or it could have refused to enter the talks. But it gave its word to release prisoners, and now it’s reneging. You want to defend that, go ahead.

        Reply to Comment
        • shachalnur

          Hmmm,

          Are you sure israel and PA had a choice on starting these “peace talks”?

          The geopolitical chessboard is changing rapidly,these talks started the same time as the, US imposed , US/Russia/Syria deal on Chem weapons,and the US/Iran nuclear talks.

          Egypt is disconnecting from the US,so are Turkey and Saudi-Arabia.

          Could it be that with these changing realities Israel is aware that a deal with the PA is unavoidable,and that these talks are a means to stop Israel and the PA from reaching any agreement?

          Is it geopolitically usefull for the US to have peace between Israel and the PA right now?

          What about Lebanon(Hezbollah),Syria,Iran and Ukraine.

          What about all the failing Arab Spring psy-ops,and the US being kicked out of the Middle East by the region and Russia(BRICS).

          These talks are set up to last as long as possible,and eventually fail.

          Since the US lost control over the ME,she is trying to set up the different parties against eachother(Israel vs.everybody,Sunni vs.Shia,Ukraine vs.Russia etc.)

          The current situation is not about Israel/PA peace,it’s about Israel’s continued existence.

          Don’t forget there was supposed to be a gigantic war in the Middle East since june 2012,and again in sept 2013,but it didn’t happen.

          What stopped it?Coincidence?

          As soon as the US is out of Israel’s and PA’s faces,an agreement will be made.

          Not because Israel is a rightious nation,but because geopolitical developments leave her no choice.

          Just like all the other “peacetalks” imposed by the bully(US),they will go nowhere ,and are only there so the US can continue with their perpetual wars for the London Bankers.

          Reply to Comment
        • Vadim

          Larry, I don’t have the sources you have. I’m not sure those were the alternatives faced by the government. The cabinet voted in favor of releasing the prisoners but you still don’t know the original alternatives. Several members of Habait Hayehudi told the press that a freeze was never an alternative to releasing prisoners.

          If you have sources, I’ll be happy to read them and to be corrected.

          Knowing the deed is VERY silly and immoral, I’m not sure what is worse – doing it or changing your mind. I prefer to “defend” a change of mind and breaking of a “promise” than the release of murderers.

          And, this hasn’t yet taken place.

          Reply to Comment
          • ‘I prefer to “defend” a change of mind and breaking of a “promise” than the release of murderers.’

            But that would mean any future agreement might similarly be redacted, which would allow the government to make promises it knows would not be kept. The problem is procedural. Actually, States defect on agreements all the time. But not in process–afterwards.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Your argument ensures that Israel’s signature on any agreement must be considered to be utterly and completely worthless.

            Demonstrably so, if Israel insists that it can back out an agreement merely by saying “We’ve changed our mind”.

            You’ve either done a deal or you haven’t. But if you have then you have to stick to it, otherwise your “word” is “worthless”.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “You’ve either done a deal or you haven’t. But if you have then you have to stick to it, otherwise your “word” is “worthless”.”

            If it is true that Israel reneged on it’s undertaking to release this batch of prisoners then I condemn it.

            You Johnboy on the other hand are a hypocrite. You claimed that the PLO did not renege on it’s promise to end terrorism as part of their Oslo declaration of principles. And you are wrong! Here, read the text of their undertaking again. They promised peace and an end to the conflict:

            “Declaration of Principles On Interim Self-Government Arrangements
            The Oslo Accords Between Israel and Palestine, Sept. 13, 1993

            From Pierre Tristam
            Following is the full text of the Declaration of Principles on Palestinians’ interim self-government. The accord was signed on Sept. 13, 1993, on the White House lawn.
            Declaration of Principles
            On Interim Self-Government Arrangements
            (September 13, 1993)
            The Government of the State of Israel and the P.L.O. team (in the Jordanian-Palestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Conference) (the “Palestinian Delegation”), representing the Palestinian people, agree that it is time to put an end to decades of confrontation and conflict, recognize their mutual legitimate and political rights, and strive to live in peaceful coexistence and mutual dignity and security and achieve a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement and historic reconciliation through the agreed political process.”

            http://middleeast.about.com/od/documents/a/Declaration-Of-Principles.htm

            Why don’t you condemn your Palestinians too for reneging on their committments, JB?

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Tzutzik: “If it is true that Israel reneged on it’s undertaking to release this batch of prisoners then I condemn it.”

            It agreed to release four batches of prisoners. It has reneged on the fourth release of prisoners.

            Your condemnation, please….

            Tzutzik: “You claimed that the PLO did not renege on it’s promise to end terrorism as part of their Oslo declaration of principles.”

            The quote you give is a motherhood statement, and I will point out that it includes the words “and strive to” which clearly makes this an aspirational statement, not a statement of fact.

            The operative commitment was given in the Oslo II agreement, wherein the PLO committed itself
            (a) not to indulge in terrorism and
            (b) to assist the IDF in its fight against terrorism.

            “Why don’t you condemn your Palestinians too for reneging on their committments, JB?”

            I will point out (again) the obvious flaw in your argument: the quote you give is from a document entitled “Declaration of PRINCIPLES”.

            The quote is therefore not a list of COMMITMENTS at all, but a statement of the PRINCIPLES that will guide the negotiations.

            The COMMITMENTS are then entered into in the later negotiations, and I’ll point out (again) that the COMMITMENTS were to (a) cease all terrorism and (b) assist the IDF in its fight against terrorism.

            The PLO has lived up to both of those commitments.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “The quote you give is a motherhood statement, and I will point out that it includes the words “and strive to” which clearly makes this an aspirational statement, not a statement of fact.”

            Yea a motherhood statement. Can we use that excuse too JB old boy? LOL.

            You are missing the point though. In the declaration of principles, the PLO claimed to REPRESENT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. If that would have been true, then they wouldn’t have had to “STRIVE” to stop terrorism, they would have persuaded the Palestinian people to STOP their terrorism against Israeli civilians.

            The fact that they did not do as they promised shows one of two things:

            1. They could not stop terrorism because they do not really represent the Palestinian people, in which case they are guilty of lying and making agreements under false pretences. It is known as FRAUD!

            OR

            2. They did/do represent the Palestinian people but they RENEGED on their promise to stop terrorism.

            I think it is a case of a bit of both, 1 AND 2, JB. Either way, the word of the PLO is not worth two bits and you should stop equivocating on their behalf. If you are not a hypocrite, then you would condemn them in the same way that you so readily condemn Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Tzutzik: “Yea a motherhood statement. Can we use that excuse too JB old boy?”

            No, because the agreement to release these prisoners in four stages over nine months wasn’t a motherhood statement.

            “In the declaration of principles, the PLO claimed to REPRESENT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. If that would have been true, then they wouldn’t have had to “STRIVE” to stop terrorism, they would have persuaded the Palestinian people to STOP their terrorism against Israeli civilians.”

            Riiiiiight.

            Israel can “strive” to bring its far-right Kahanist settlers into line, but that does not mean that the IDF possesses a Mind Control Ray that can compel those fanatics to stop terrorising defenceless Palestinian olive-pickers, or to cease and desist from burning farmland that belongs to someone else.

            And the USA can “strive” (mightily, for more than a decade) to “win the war on terror”, and it still finds it impossible to Gesture Hypnotically in such a way that it compels the John Walker Lindh’s of the world not to join the Taliban.

            People are like that, Tzutzik – some of them just Refuse To Do As They Are Told.

            Even Zionists….

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “No, because the agreement to release these prisoners in four stages over nine months wasn’t a motherhood statement.”

            LOL I get it. Anything the representatives of the Palestinian people sign (the PLO) is a motherhood statement if they don’t really want to implement it. But whatever Israel signs is binding with no ‘get out clauses’. That is fair according to you JB? Ok then, that establishes your credentials, you have none.

            “People are like that, Tzutzik – some of them just Refuse To Do As They Are Told.”

            BS JB, your US analogy is irrelevant. They are outsiders in someone else’s country. They cannot stop asymmetric resistance (terrorism). If The PLO represent the Palestinian people, they should at the least be able to persuade their people to give peace a chance and reduce terrorism even if not entirely eliminate it during peace talks. But as I proved to you, terrorism not only didn’t stop, it escalated after the Oslo deal was signed in 1993.

            As for what Kahane followers do. How many Palestinians did they murder? What are they really doing? They too harass Palestinians who harass Israelis. By the way, are you sure Israel could not stop them if it really wanted to? Why should it though? Why should it stop them from retaliating against Palestinian stone throwers? Both sides are just a nuisance. Nothing like the murderous campaign by terrorists that the PLO not only didn’t stop after the Oslo deal but also participated in. You do know that don’t you, JB? Israel caught actual members of the PLO who committed terrorist acts. Are you saying they couldn’t even stop their own members from committing terrorist acts? Then what use are they as a peace partner? And why should Israel even deal with them let alone abide by THEIR committments towards them?

            Either BOTH sides deliver on their committments or neither side will. That is human nature, JB.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            “LOL I get it. Anything the representatives of the Palestinian people sign (the PLO) is a motherhood statement if they don’t really want to implement it.”

            No, you clearly don’t get it.

            The Motherhood Statements that two sides sign are…. Motherhood Statements, intended as such and expected to be regarded as such.

            Then there are other agreements that **aren’t** Motherhood statements but **are**, instead, intended to set out mutually-agreed and quite-specific obligations between parties.

            That’s what those agreements are intended to do, and that’s how those agreements are supposed to be regarded.

            That YOU are utterly and completely incapable of distinguishing the one from the other is YOUR problem, not THEIRS.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “That YOU are utterly and completely incapable of distinguishing the one from the other is YOUR problem, not THEIRS.”

            Nobody is able to distinguish motherhood statements in peace accords because there are none. All statements in it are binding.

            Only in your distorted world are some agreements non binding on some while they are binding on others.

            PS
            Nowhere in the Oslo accords are there small prints that say that some things are non binding for the PLO only.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            The mind boggles. Is this little upstart who calls jimself Johnboy serious?

            I can just see him appealing to a judge who is about to sentence him. He would say:

            “Your honour, this clause in the legal contract that I signed in front of witnesses is just a “motherhood statement” I should not be legally bound by it.”

            The judge would look at him and treat him like a fool. Oh yea … and he would throw the book at him too. What a maroon …

            Reply to Comment
    10. Richard Witty

      The time of making the agreement was the time to determine if one was going to fulfill it.

      Once the agreement was formed it should be followed.

      There is no material change in background circumstances that could possibly qualify the agreement.

      Reply to Comment
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