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In the Jewish state, equality for Arabs is impossible by definition

Isn’t it time to finally ask why every single attempt to achieve full equality for Palestinian citizens has failed?

By Umar al-Ghubari (translated by Richard Flantz)

Palestinian citizens of Israel stand on a car during clashes in Umm al Fahem, Israel, October 27, 2010. (photo: Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Palestinian citizens of Israel stand on a car during clashes in Umm al Fahem, Israel, October 27, 2010. (photo: Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

This week the Israeli army radio, Galei Tzahal, conducted a survey which, among other things, polled the attitude of Israeli Jews regarding full equal rights for Arab citizens of Israel. The results of the survey, conducted among 503 Jews, revealed that the Jewish public in this country is almost equally divided on this issue. 45 percent oppose full equal rights for the state’s Arab citizens, 43 percent are in favor, 6 percent replied “it depends” (it’s unclear on what) and six percent do not know their position on this.

Two interesting points arise from the way this survey was conducted. First, in a militaristic society like Israel, it is not surprising that an army radio station intervenes in the civil realm without question, reflecting the clear overlap between (Jewish) civil society and the military in Israel. Secondly, those conducting the survey only asked Jews, and are thus acting on the idea that Jews in this country have the sole authority to determine whether and how equal the Arab can be. By doing so they continue to shape public opinion such that it is completely natural that Jews have the final word.

68 years of failure

Because of these deeply-rooted conceptions, which stem from the very definition of the state as the state of the Jewish people, there is no chance of achieving equality in the State of Israel — even if the results of the survey were to show that a large majority of Jews supported equality in principle. This is not just about what people want, it is a question of whether it is even possible. The State of Israel, with its self-definition, its mission, the way it was established, its priorities, its symbols, name and national anthem, cannot — even if it wanted to — bring about equality between Jews and non-Jews.

The state of the Jews is by necessity a racist state. It cannot be anything else. This is structured and rooted in its very definition. It was founded on Jewish privilege, supremacy and sovereignty, and many of its laws were legislated and many of its goals were formulated on the basis of giving preference to its Jewish citizens.

Since the establishment of the state, Palestinian citizens, as well as a small portion of the Jewish citizens, have struggled to achieve equality for “Israel’s Arabs.” We can assume that some of the leaders of the state indeed believed in equality as a value. But the outcome has only been 68 years of failure. Discrimination continues while equality seems very far away. Is it possible that all these people failed because they weren’t good enough, or talented enough, or resolute enough?

Isn’t it time, after all these years, to ask what doesn’t work? What makes all attempts at equality fail?

Palestinians citizens of Israel shout slogans during a protest against the Prawer-Begin plan, Jaffa, November 28, 2013. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Palestinians citizens of Israel shout slogans during a protest against the Prawer-Begin plan, Jaffa, November 28, 2013. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

What haven’t they tried and what haven’t they invested in? Energy, time, discussions, speeches, promises, meetings, demonstrations, arrests, violence, people killed, people wounded, strikes, assemblies, reporting, research studies, committees, High Court injunctions, recommendations, resolutions, plans and even budgets, but equality hasn’t come. Nor will equality come. Because how can you do two contrary things — discriminate while guaranteeing equality — at the same time?

In a state that defines itself, for example, as the state of men, women will never be equal — even if their equality is enshrined in the first paragraph of its declaration of independence. A state that is, from the outset, established for whites will never manage to secure equality for blacks, even if it claims to do so. Even if its white leaders negotiate with the black leaders, even if they speak together and declare that they are determined to achieve equality and co-existence between blacks and whites in the state of the whites, they won’t succeed. The discriminatory foundation upon which the state is based is stronger than any plan or any budget. This is what is happening to the Palestinians in the state of the Jews, which in addition to its racist self-definition insists on preserving an overwhelming Jewish majority at any price, which means keeping the Arabs as a minority on the margins at any price. It shows that turning the Palestinians into a minority in the state was not accidental, and certainly was not the result of circumstance. This is a practical translation of the meaning of a Jewish state.

Its name too, Israel, is a reflection of this conception. Those who chose the name of the state created the deliberate exclusion and alienation of the citizens who are not connected to “Israel,” the great-grandfather of the tribe of Israelites. How could anyone outside this tribe possibly feel they belong or are equal? How abusive is it to forcibly impose an Israeli identity on Palestinians who have just been defeated by the Israelis? And today they’re even being required to not only be Israelis, but to be “Israelis all the way,” as the Prime Minister recently stated.

Change the ideology, not the strategy

Equality in the state of the Jews is unattainable, and the struggle to achieve such equality if a futile one. Even if you will it, it will remain a dream. It’s an illusion. Even if there will be an Arab prime minister in Israel who will operate according to its laws, self-definition and goals as they are today, it would not bring about equality for the Arabs. Because the failure is determined from the outset. It is engraved in the definition of the state and embedded in the character of the regime. This is the meaning of Jewish rule. Those who in the course of 68 years have not built a single Arab town and at the same time have built hundreds of towns for Jews, and those who created a budget nine times greater for Jewish students than for Arab ones cannot claim that this happened by mistake or due to inattention, nor as the result of neglect or a failure of policy. This is a worldview. This is an ideology. After all, it is clear that a Jew is preferred over an Arab here, and it is clear that this will find expression in every sphere of life: in the state’s budgets, in the attitude of the police, in security checks at the airfields, in the master plans, in the railway lines, etc.

To eliminate discrimination and change the power relations between Jews and Arabs toward real equality, it is necessary to give up on the ideology that produces inequality. Those who carry the banner of the struggle need to change direction and to demand the establishment of a truly democratic political framework — one that will not give preference to one race over another. This will pave the way for a struggle that has a chance of implementing the principle of equality. Full equality, not as a gesture or nicety on the part of the majority – regardless of who the majority is — and not as a prize for good behavior on the part of the minority, regardless of who the minority is. Equality without without reservations, which eliminates the equation of rulers and ruled, occupiers and occupied, expellers and expelled.

That is where the struggle has to go.

Umar al Ghubari is group facilitator, a political educator, and he documents and photographs the Palestinian Nakba. This article was first published published in Hebrew on Local Call — read it here.

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    1. Gustav

      “The state of the Jews is by necessity a racist state”

      Ah ok, so all those states which profess to be Islamic states or even just plain old Arab states are by definition racist states?

      I actually think that those who SINGLE out the Jewish state are the racists!

      The Jewish state is a reaction to all those racists who persecuted us for 2000 years for being Jewish. They were able to do so because we were a minority amongst them. That is why we now need a Jewish state where we are not a minority.

      Reply to Comment
      • TB7

        Expelling an ethnic group or keeping them expelled for demographic reasons is blatantly racist and the Crime of Apartheid by definition. No Arab or islamic state does this.

        Reply to Comment
        • Gustav

          Really?

          Nearly a million Jews had to flee Arab lands for being Jewish. But that does not matter huh? Because according to Racists when something bad happens to Arabs in a war of aggression of their own making, that has gotta be racist. But when the same thing happens to Jews, that’s normal, huh?

          Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            The point of issue is “for demographic reasons” and the necessity of a state to be racist to exist according to its self definition.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            First you said this …

            “No Arab or islamic state does this” [expelling an ethnic group].

            Now you admit that was a lie. But now you say that was ok because it had a different intent.

            So lets talk about intent. Our intent to keep an ethnic majority of Jews is driven by the history of racism (by people like you) against Jews. For 2000 years as minorities we were persecuted for being Jewish. That’s why we need ONE, I say ONE state in this world where we are a majority and where we can defend ourselves from those (people like you) who still want to persecute us.

            You say that’s racist? I say YOU are racist because you single out the Jewish state while making excuses for all the Arab and Muslim states.

            You know what’s even more racist? That you don’t even see your own hate driven hypocrisy.

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            I was clearly not referring only to expulsion, but to expulsion for demographic reasons. No Arab or Islamic country has to do this. And no Arab or Islamic country has to be racist to survive as a state. But Israel has to be racist “by necessity” and now you have proven the point yourself.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            The only thing that I proved is your perversity.

            Wanting a Jewish majority state as a shelter for Jews who were persecuted for 2000 years for being Jews is racist according to you?

            But self declared Arab and or Muslim states who were amongst those who periodically persecuted Jews and still persecute other ethnic minorities are not racist?

            That is just perverse! AND racist!

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            I never wrote that the expulsion of one group is racist, but at the same time the expulsion of another is not and can even be excused or justified. Such a claim would have indeed been racist, hypocrit and even perverse itself.

            It comes as no surprise that it is literally your claim which you are trying to distract from with your personal attacks. You justify the expulsion of Gentiles by Jews, because it is necessary for demographic reasons. Have a guess whose “racism”, “hypocrisy” and “perversity” you have proven besides the fact that Israel according to your own arguments has to be racist by necessity.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            And I never wrote that Israel had to expel gentiles for demographic reasons.

            What I did write is that in the war which the racist Arabs started and because of which they decided to flee, Israel is not obliged to let them return. Particularly since at least as many Jews fled from Arab lands because of the same war.

            As for our immigration law which gives preference to Jewish immigration, that is justifiable for the reasons which I already mentioned above.

            And we are not even unique in that regard. Maybe we are a bit more honest though. Show me a country which would be prepared to make it’s existing ethnic majority turn into a minority through immigration and I’ll show you a liar. And other countries can’t even point to a history of persecution as minorities like we can.

            I’ll reiterate my first post. Racists like you single out Jews and Israel for things that everybody else does but they are given a free pass by you. That is the very definition of race based discrimination.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”Expelling an ethnic group or keeping them expelled for demographic reasons is blatantly racist and the Crime of Apartheid by definition. No Arab or islamic state does this”

            First you denied….

            TB7:”The point of issue is “for demographic reasons”

            Then when you were confronted with the uncomforable truth about how the Arabs caused nearly a million Jews to flee, you tried to claim that was somehow different….

            TB7:”never wrote that the expulsion of one group is racist, but at the same time the expulsion of another is not and can even be excused”

            …but now you even deny what you said. Even so, that’s a good sign because at least you are not beyond feeling shame when confronted with facts even though you habitually deny what you really stand for. Racism as long as it is practiced against Jews but not others. Which makes you a hypocrite!

            Reply to Comment
    2. TB7

      Again, it is not me you who justifies expulsion and denationalization on the one hand and also gives a free pass for certain people to do so on the other. And its not me who justifies to turn an ethnic majority into a minority, if done by a certain people. It’s not me who accuses another people of starting a war, if they are not prepared to allow the territorial integrity of their country to become violated or to become a minority. It’s not me who claims that a certain people are not obliged to let the people they have expelled to return to their country and have the right to denationalize them. That’s the racism and hipocrisy on your side who claims to speak for all Jews.

      Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        But it was you who who singled out Israel and accuse it of things which Arabs and others freely practice and which you refuse to condemn.

        It was you who ignored the history of Arab aggression and racism against the Jews and Israel and instead of condemning it, you excused it.

        It is you who falsely claim that Jews have no right to live in the land of our ancestors in our own country as a free people who have a right to defend our freedom.

        And it is you who condemn immigration laws which all other countries observe and for which you only criticize Israel.

        And last but not least, you steadfastly ignore the history of racism to which Jews were subjected to by Arabs too and you expect us to just continue to put up with it.

        All that makes you too a racist TB7!

        Reply to Comment
    3. TB7

      Again, that’s what I wrote:
      Expelling an ethnic group or keeping them expelled for demographic reasons is blatantly racist and the Crime of Apartheid by definition. No Arab or islamic state does this.

      My argument still stands cause your lies don’t even touch it. Nothing in my argument is racist. To the contrary, it’s anti-racist, anti-expulsion, anti-Apartheid and anti-agression in general.

      It’s a lie that I refuse to condem any expulsion. I find them racist in general.
      It’s you who singles out the expulsion by Arabs but doesn’t condem the expulsion by Jews. That’s racist.

      It’s a lie that I ignored the history of Arab aggression or excused it.

      It’s a lie that I have claimed that Jews as such have no right to live in this land.
      It is you who denies Palestinians to return and to live in this land. That’s racist.

      It’s a lie that I condemn immigration laws which all other countries observe and for which I only criticize Israel. The return of expelles has nothing to do with immigration but with repatriation. Israel has only a law for Jews to “return”. That’s racist.

      It’s a lie that I ignore the history of racism to which Jews were subjected to by Arabs and I don’t expect anyone to just continue to put up with it.

      You are not only a racist Gustav, but also a liar. You had 5 chances to deal with my initial argument. Instead you used your comments to spread lies about me. Since I don’t expect you to adress my argument or tell the truth there’s no point for me to continue this discussion unless you adress my argument.

      Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        TB7:”Expelling an ethnic group or keeping them expelled for demographic reasons is blatantly racist and the Crime of Apartheid by definition. No Arab or islamic state does this”

        First you denied….

        TB7:”The point of issue is “for demographic reasons”

        Then when you were confronted with the uncomforable truth about how the Arabs caused nearly a million Jews to flee, you tried to claim that was somehow different….

        TB7:”never wrote that the expulsion of one group is racist, but at the same time the expulsion of another is not and can even be excused”

        …but now you even deny what you said. Even so, that’s a good sign because at least you are not beyond feeling shame when confronted with facts even though you habitually deny what you really stand for. Racism as long as it is practiced against Jews but not others. Which makes you a hypocrite!

        Reply to Comment
    4. Gustav

      As for me not adressing your argument? Poppycock. It is exactly the other way around, you are not addressing mine…

      I said that our insistence on a Jewish majority state is driven by the history of persecution against us for being Jews (by Arabs too).

      You blatantly ignore that argument or even condemn us for it…

      Yet you say that you condemn racism against Jews too? Well forgive me but you are just making a laughing stock of yourself. You are only paying lip service.

      You spend all your time energy and effort criticizing our attempt to solve the historical discrimination and persecution against us by forming our own Jewish majority state and for fighting back against those who want to maintain the status quo of keeping Jews a persecuted minority or worse. By turning us into dead Jews.

      You deny our rights to solve our problem and fight back against those who want to harm us and you call us racists for fighting off the racists? That’s what you call condemning racism against Jews? I call it lip service and hypocrisy. As usual, you want to have everything every which way, Benny, oops I mean TB7. You want to be a good guy while at the same time you advance the cause of those who want to kill Jews.

      Reply to Comment
      • TB7

        The claim that expulsion is justifiable or can be excused is not an argument which needs to be adressed. It’s blatantly racist. The claim is even supremacist, if only certain groups have the right to expell others. To call such claims racist and supremacist implies their condemnation. It’s their justification or excusation that leads to more of the same and the crimes that come with it, and also whitewash of these crimes that have allready happened in the history of mankind.

        Reply to Comment
        • Gustav

          Who claimed that expulsion is justifiable, TB7? You are the one that came closest to doing so. You seemed to imply that the expulsion of nearly 1 million Jews from Arab lands was somehow more acceptable what happened in the war which the Arabs started in Palestine. Yet I don’t know of too many wars where there are no refugees.

          And you are still not responding to my point about why a Jewish majority state is necessary. That it is necessary as a shelter where we can no longer be murdered and persecuted at will as has happened to us at various places, including Arab countries, for 2000 years because we were vulnerable minorities.

          Tell us, TB7, what else could we have done as a reaction to such a history? Ah, what’s the use, you are one of them. You are one of the racists who miss the old days of vulnerable Jews. That’s why you are so much against the Jewish state and want to see it dismantled. So that you can have the good old days back…

          It won’t happen, TB7.

          Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            Justifying an expulsion and claiming its unavoidable necessity is the same. There’s no need to adress this point over and over again. It’s blatantly racist. To justify crimes against humanity against a certain people with the history of crimes against humanity against another is even perverse.

            Someone who needs people to be expelled, denationalized, disenfranchised of their human rights and dispossessed is interested in keeping them vulnerable, preferably under martial law and will justify the violence against them that comes with it.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            The Arabs expelled nearly a million Jews. You justified that. That makes you a hypocrite TB7.

            The Arabs persecuted Jews when we were minorities amongst them. You had no problems with that. That makes you racist TB7.

            The Arabs made war on us and you justified that. That makes you a war monger TB7.

            And you denied or made up your own version of history. That makes you a propagandist TB7.

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            Yes Gustav, your are just a typical Zionist character assassin an opinion facist who resorts to lies and personal attacks, when he runs out of arguments.

            I never justifed any expulsion or expressed that I had no problem with any persecution. It is you who justifies why Israel has to keep Paletinians expelled.

            I never justified Arabs “making war on Jews”, because Zionists made war on Arabs to conquer Palestine.

            And it is you who making up history, obscuring the Zionist’s intentions to take over Palestine and become a majority as well as denying that Arabs were expelled, allthough the latter is well documented in Israeli military achives.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”Yes Gustav, your are just a typical Zionist character assassin an opinion facist who resorts to lies and personal attacks, when he runs out of arguments.”

            LOL. Read your own sentence and see yourself in what you attribute to me.

            TB7:”I never justifed any expulsion”

            No? Then what did you mean when you said this?

            TB7:”No Arab or islamic state does this [expel an entire ethnic group].

            But after reminding you that they expelled nearly 1 million Jews in the early fifties, you changed tack and you tried to explain it away by saying the following…

            TB7: “The point of issue is “for demographic reasons”

            …in other words, you tried to claim that the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries was somehow more justifiable than Arabs fleeing from a war of aggression of their own making in which they promised to slaughter all the Jews of Palestine.

            Part 1 of 2

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7: “…or expressed that I had no problem with any persecution.”

            You may as well have because you simply ignored my point about why we need a Jewish majority state. Because of 2000 years of persecution of Jews (yes by Arabs too) when we were minorities. You just gloss over that very pertinent bit of history and you pretend that it isn’t relevant. But it is highly relevant and you know it!

            TB7:”It is you who justifies why Israel has to keep Paletinians expelled.”

            You bet. Nobody in their right mind would act differently if they would be in our shoes. Nobody would let their sworn enemy who attacked them swamp their country so as to make it easier to finish the job that they started. They are more than welcome to live in their own country instead when they sign a peace deal with us. Or live in the Arab countries where they already live and from which the Arabs expelled Jews most of whom fled to Israel. It is called a population exchange.

            TB7:”I never justified Arabs “making war on Jews”, because Zionists made war on Arabs to conquer Palestine.”

            You are a laugh a minute. The UN voted to partition Palestine into two states, one Jewish one Arab. We accepted, the Arabs rejected. They rioted and made war on us because they wanted ALL the land. But we are the ones who started the war? That’s called Hutzpah. Or being perverse.

            TB7:”And it is you who making up history, obscuring the Zionist’s intentions to take over Palestine and become a majority as well as denying that Arabs were expelled, allthough the latter is well documented in Israeli military achives.”

            You can utter your lies and propaganda till kingdom come, TB7, it still won’t make what you say true.

            1. Our intention was and still is to live in a Jewish majority state where we can defend ourselves instead of continuing to be a persecuted minority.

            2. The Arabs were greedy. They wanted 100% of the land to be under their rule and they promised to slaughter all of us in the war that they started.

            3. They lost all the battles to date and in the process many of them became refugees because they worried about what we would do to them.

            4. However, their fear was exaggerated because the ones who did not flee became Israeli citizens and today they make up 20% of the population. Do they suffer discrimination from many of us? Yes unfortunately they do but then again, many of them are not loyal citizens but they side with our enemies. So both sides are to blame. Overall though, there are no discrimanatory laws against them. They are equal before the law other than in security matters and immigration policies.

            But this is the crux: in many other places, the Arabs would have fared worse given their history of hostility towards us. Just look at how Arabs treat those whom they vanquish in our neighborhood. Just look at what happened to Muslims in Yugoslavia. That’s humanity for you. We are not perfect but nobody else is. Yet propagandists like you, TB7 pursue your old habit of singling out Jews and trying to make us out to be monsters. Good luck with that. It won’t work. Those who hate us already you’ll convince. The rest are much more savvy in this age of the internet. They can do their own research. You won’t fool them.

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            It was Israel’s state founder who said in 1938 that he was satisfied with partitiong the country, but “on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state we” and that he will “abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel.”
            It was Israel’s state founder who said in 1937 that he supports the idea of “compulsary transfer”.
            It was Israel’s “state founder” who said in February 1948 that “the war will give us the land.” And that the concept “of ‘ours’ and ‘not ours’ are only concepts for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning.”

            Gustav: “LOL. Read your own sentence and see yourself in what you attribute to me.”

            Fair enough. So let’s see who’s going to attack the other first and who can discuss in a civilized manner. But I’m warning you. If you attack me once more, I will starting my attribution in every commment.

            “Then what did you mean when you said this? TB7:”No Arab or islamic state does this [expel an entire ethnic group].”

            I have allready explained to you that it refered to expelling or keeping expelled “for demographic reasons”, not what you put between the brackets. My explanation is absolutely compatible with what I wrote and I didn’t need to change anything or be “reminded” of any expulsion:
            “Expelling an ethnic group or keeping them expelled for demographic reasons is blatantly racist and the Crime of Apartheid by definition. No Arab or islamic state does this”. And to accuse me of justifying expulsion is absolutely baseless, because my argument literally contains “Expelling an ethnic group […] is blatantly racist”. That’s not justifying expulsion and I a “reminder” was never necessary to condem expulsion like I did in the first place.

            Gustav: “You may as well have because you simply ignored my point about why we need a Jewish majority state. Because of 2000 years of persecution of Jews (yes by Arabs too) when we were minorities. You just gloss over that very pertinent bit of history and you pretend that it isn’t relevant. But it is highly relevant and you know it!”

            The question is, if it is relevant to my argument or to the argument the author makes that “The state of the Jews is by necessity a racist state”. If I argue that keeping people expelled is racist and you argue that keeping people expelled is necessary in the case of the state of the Jews, then you prove the point of the author. And that was exactly what I wrote in my third comment which actually proves that I didn’t ignore it at all, but actually responded to it and that this accusation of yours is baseless, too.

            Gustav: “You bet. Nobody in their right mind would act differently if they would be in our shoes. Nobody would let their sworn enemy who attacked them swamp their country so as to make it easier to finish the job that they started.”

            No Gustav, that’s just an incitement against Palestian refugees as such and not the real reason why Israel doesn’t allow them to return. They are kept expelled for the same reason why they were expelled: They aren’t Jewish. It’s just for demographic reasons. By necessity.

            Gustav: “They are more than welcome to live in their own country instead when they sign a peace deal with us.”

            No. They are not allowed to live in their own country which is now labeled Israel.

            “Or live in the Arab countries where they already live and from which the Arabs expelled Jews most of whom fled to Israel. It is called a population exchange.”

            Gustav: No, that would be the case, if Israel and Palestine would exchange populations on a voluntary base. Do you support the right to return of Jews to the other Arab countries? I doubt it.

            Gustav: “The UN voted to partition Palestine into two states, one Jewish one Arab. We accepted, the Arabs rejected.”

            No. The UN voted to “recommed” to partition Palestine into two states and after the plan was abandoned in April 1948 Jewish seperatists and terrorists set up the state by force of arms.

            “They rioted and made war on us …”

            Again: How would Israeli Jews react, if Israel was to be partitioned. Would they not riot? Would they not defend its partition? Would you call it “making war on Gentiles”? As long as you don’t answer this question your statement just demonstrates a double standard.

            “… because they wanted ALL the land.”

            They allready had all the land and just wanted its independence since pre mandate times. It is clear who wanted and still wants ALL the land.

            “But we are the ones who started the war? That’s called Hutzpah. Or being perverse.”

            Or doing a Ben Gurion who allready said after the Peel partition plan in the 1930s that he was satisfied with partitioning the country, but “on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel” and that he supported “compulsary transfer”. The difference to 1948 is that the force was allready strong enough to expand the territory after April 1948 implenting Plan Daleth.

            Reply to Comment
    5. Gustav

      TB7:”I have allready explained to you ….

      You are not a good listener are you? You explained NOTHING!

      At best, you said that Arab expulsion of Jews was not as bad as Arabs fleeing in a war of their own making. That does not stand up to scrutiny. It’s as good as justifying bad Arab behavior while condemning a lesser thing but equally unfortunate situation that came about because of a war of aggression initiated by your Palestinian Arabs.

      TB7:“Expelling an ethnic group or keeping them expelled for demographic reasons is blatantly racist and the Crime of Apartheid by definition.”

      Most of the Palestinian Arabs were not expelled by us. They fled as a result of the war that they started. Want proof? Then watch this video….

      http://youtu.be/72Ata-hY9WQ

      Listen to that startling admission in that video

      Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        TB7:”It was Israel’s state founder who said ….”

        Lotsa people said lotsa things. Sometimes they are misquoted, sometimes they are selectively quoted and sometimes they are quoted out of context. In any case, we Jews have not been ruled by kings or dictators for a long time now. What some individuals may or may not have said, does not represent us all.

        Unless of course you want to apply the same standards to Arabs? What have many of their leaders said? They said Itbach Al Yahud (butcher all the Jews) and many haven’t just said it but actually proved their intent in practice wherever they could. Does that make them non racist, peace loving people who just defend their country?

        Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        TB7:”The question is, if it is relevant to my argument or to the argument”

        The question is that you want to concentrate only on Arab gripes and want to ignore ours.

        If ‘A’ causes ‘B’ then it isn’t logical to ignore ‘A’ and only talk about ‘B’.

        But that is what you are attempting to do…

        Racism against Jews and persecution of us when we were minorities, caused us to want to live in a Jewish majority state in order to put a stop to that.

        But you call us racist for reacting like that? That makes YOU a racist because you defend a system which allowed us to be persecuted by racists (yes Arab racists too) and you deny our right to do something about it.

        Reply to Comment
        • TB7

          I don’t deny, belittle or justify any expulsion or a system which violates any rights including the right of the violated to do something about it. That’s your racist sthick, Gustav, not mine. It seems to be unbearable to you, since you have to invent your pitiful lies about me, and repeat them over and over again. That’s the reason, why you don’t quote me. But I will neither comment your repetitions nor your straw arguments, ridiculous rhetorical questions and your lies about me or my arguments any longer.

          You belittle the attitude of Ben Gurion who was chairman of the Jewish Agency, leader or the Jewish paramilitary in 1948, state founder of the state of Israel, prime minister, defense minister, relected prime minsterm, etc. and his plans to take over all of Palestine and saw nothing immoral in expulsion. But please quote anything from the leaders of the Arab Higher Committe or the military leader of the Palestinians and if what they said had something to do with the partition of Palestine. You know, some counterpart to the he Biltmore program, the One Million Plan or Ben Gurion said to Ho Chi Minh or what his proposal to the UN was as the represent of the Jewish Agency’s.

          You deny that Arabs were expelled, allthough nobody was allowed to return which makes it an ethnic cleansing anyway. And it most cases they were caused by direct Isreli action which is documented in Israeli military archives and compiled by Israel’s historians liky Benny Morris or others. The Israeli academic debate is only concerned with the question, if the expulsion was systematic or not.

          But the truth is out, Gustav, you won’t change a bit about the fact that Israel has to be racist by necessity (which doesn’t mean that it also needs to like to be this way).

          Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            You quoted no one TB7. Certainly not in context. And you ignored the BBC video which I posted in which the Arabs themselves admit that the refugee problem arose mainly because their own side frightened them out of their wits with their propaganda about what the Jews would fo to them. You also ignore that today we have about 1.2 million Arab citizens. Why didn’t we expell them? Compare and contrast. How many Jews are there in Arab countries?

            But you want me to quote the rhetoric of Arab leaders in 1947-48? Ok, here goes. Promise me not to crap yourself after all, you are not Jewish, you are not their target. Then again, who knows, nowdays they are targeting non Jews too. They even target Muslims who don’t agree with them.

            You quoted no one TB7. Certainly not in context. And you ignored the BBC video which I posted in which the Arabs themselves admit that the refugee problem arose mainly because their own side frightened them out of their wits with their propaganda about what the Jews would fo to them. You also ignore that today we have about 1.2 million Arab citizens. Why didn’t we expell them? Compare and contrast. How many Jews are there in Arab countries?

            But you want me to quote the rhetoric of Arab leaders in 1947-48? Ok, here goes. Promise me not to crap yourself after all, you are not Jewish, you are not their target. Then again, who knows, nowdays they are targeting non Jews too. They even target Muslims who don’t agree with them.

            Abdul Rahman Azzam, the Arab League’s first secretary-general:-
            “This war,” he said, “will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongol massacres and the Crusades.”

            Hassan al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, was quoted by the New York Times in 1948 as saying “If the Jewish state becomes a fact, and this is realized by the Arab peoples, they will drive the Jews who live in their midst into the sea.” That wasn’t about Israelis but about Jews in Arab countries.

            ON APRIL 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine ArabHigher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: “The Arabs did notwant to submit to a truce … They preferred to abandon their homes,belongings and everything they possessed.”

            ON SEPTEMBER 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, secretary of the AHC, as saying: “The fact that there are those refugees isthe direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposingpartition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously…”

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”But the truth is out, Gustav, you won’t change a bit about the fact that Israel has to be racist by necessity (which doesn’t mean that it also needs to like to be this way).”

            Ok, repetitious one. Every time you repeat this ridiculous assertion, I’ll respond like this…

            If ‘A’ causes ‘B’ then it isn’t logical to ignore ‘A’ and only talk about ‘B’.
            But that is what you are attempting to do…

            Racism against Jews and persecution of us when we were minorities, caused us to want to live in a Jewish majority state in order to put a stop to that.

            But you call us racist for reacting like that? That makes YOU a racist because you defend a system which allowed us to be persecuted by racists (yes Arab racists too) and you deny our right to do something about it.

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            I quoted Ben Gurion and the context remains the same:
            “No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning ….. Our possession is important not only for itself … through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a [small] state …. will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country”

            “[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state, we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel.”

            “We shall spread in the whole country in the course of time ….. this is only an arrangement for the next 25 to 30 years.”
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Ben-Gurion_letter#Footnotes

            And you ignored that I wrote that according to a Haganah’s report 73% of the refugees which were created until June alone were caused by direct Israeli action and the number of % was even higher after that. And you constantly ignore that it doesn’t matter, how they were expelled. If they were not allowed to return it’s just another way of ethic cleansing.

            The quote from Abdul Rahman Azzam is taken out of context and it’s not an intention, but an unwanted prediction:
            “I personally wish that the Jews do not drive us to this war, as this will be a war of extermination momentous massacre …”
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azzam_Pasha_quotation#The_quotation_in_historical_context

            The quote from Hassan al-Banna is from August 1948 and also not an intention, but a prediction.

            Please provide a fuller context of the two last quotes. You know very well, from where you copy pasted them.

            First of all the Arabs initially rejected the mentioned truce, because the Jewish Agency’s precondition after the partition plan was abandoned was to reallow Jewish immigration (48000 per year). After the Arabs accepted these conditions the truce was rejected by the Jewish agency.
            https://books.google.de/books?id=6T_Ff6Ra57sC&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q&f=false

            And who specifically was Emil Ghory refering to when he wrote “those refugees” and not refugees in general?

            “Racism against Jews and persecution of us when we were minorities, caused us to want to live in a Jewish majority state in order to put a stop to that.

            But you call us racist for reacting like that?”

            I call it Apartheid by definition to keep ethnic groups expelled and denationalized for demographic reasons. And I call it antisemitic by definition to suggest that Jews as such support this, Gustav, who claims to speak for all Jews.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            There you are, your quotes against my posts. You rationalize and explain away what your Arabs said, I on the other hand know that your claims about what Ben Gurion meant are preposterous. Not only prepostorous but outlandish. The idea that a small band of Jews outnumbered more than 20 to 1 without a state and the resources available to a state would be audacious enough to not just set the relatively modest aim of carving out a small state for itself in the place that they lived but to aim to take on the entire Arab world many of whom had by then their own independent states and armies. It is just preposterous.

            What is much more reasonable is that the Jews won the war against the expectations of most of the world, certainly against the expectations of the Arabs because the Jews were desperate. We had our backs against the wall and we had to fight to the death. The Arabs on the other hand lost the 1947/48 war because they were complacent, boastful and disorganized. There are many such examples in history. Of course once we won that initial battle, we had the chance to strengthen ourselves and now it really would be realistic such military aims for ourselves. But in 1947-48? Nah, even the idea is laughable.

            By the way, how come we have 1.2 million Arab citizens if Ben Gurion’s aim was to expel Arabs?

            TB7:”I call it Apartheid by definition to keep ethnic groups expelled…”

            What was it you said to me? You said my opinion does not matter. Well, TB7, your opinion does not matter because you keep on ignoring what I’ll say again below.

            TB7:”and denationalized…”

            The only people who keep the Arab refugees denationalized are the various Arab states who now deliberately keep them in wretched conditions in order to make them cannon fodder against us.

            Note the difference between us and them. We took in nearly a million Jewish refugees from Arab countries and integrated them into Israel.

            Now read this again, TB7…

            If ‘A’ causes ‘B’ then it isn’t logical to ignore ‘A’ and only talk about ‘B’.
            But that is what you are attempting to do…

            Racism against Jews and persecution of us when we were minorities, caused us to want to live in a Jewish majority state in order to put a stop to that.

            But you call us racist for reacting like that? That makes YOU a racist because you defend a system which allowed us to be persecuted by racists (yes Arab racists too) and you deny our right to do something about it.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            “In an interview with journalist (and later MK ) Geula Cohen on May 12, 1967, less than a month before the war broke out, Ben-Gurion was asked what he would tell his grandson when he asked what the borders of the homeland are. He replied: “The borders of your homeland, my grandson, are the borders of the State of Israel as they are today. That’s it.”

            Care to explain how come Ben Gurion himself contradicts your claims about him? Eh, TB7?

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            Gustav: “There you are, your quotes against my posts. You rationalize and explain away what your Arabs said, …”

            Nope, I corrected your false quotes and false claims about these quotes or simply asked you to provide the context of the quotes, which were obviously taken out of context and copypasted from a propaganda web site without a link.

            And the territory west of the river Jordan wasn’t even enough:
            “Not long ago, on the occasion of the Histadruth elections at Haifa, in 1944, Mr. Ben Gurion publicly declared that the Jews who propose to settle in Palestine, by force if necessary, will not hesitate to extend the boundaries of the country, since the Jewish State demanded by the Zionists is not their movement’s final goal but only a preliminary step thereto.”
            https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/15D51D0D80ADC17F85256E9E006F0501

            Gustav:”Racism against Jews and persecution of us when we were minorities, caused us to want to live in a Jewish majority state in order to put a stop to that.”

            Who do you mean by “us”, Gustav, King of Jews, who claims to speak for all Jews? The majority of Jews doesn’t even live in Israel or as a majority in any other country. Not even in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, established in 1934.

            There’s nothing wrong about WANTING to live as a majority. But the end doesn’t justify the means and Jews unfortunately weren’t a majority in any territory in the world since thousands of years. The only way to become a majority in a territory which is inhabited by others is by enforcing the increase of the wanted population while decreasing the population of the unwanted. Do you support colonialism, Gustav?

            Just answer this these question, if you think that you are (morally) right:
            Do Palestinians have the same rights in the territory of former mandates Palestine like Jews? And do they have the same rights to implement this right like Jews did? And do they have the same rights to do to Jews what Jews haven been doing to them since 1948?

            Gustav: “But you call us racist for reacting like that? That makes YOU a racist because you defend a system which allowed us to be persecuted by racists (yes Arab racists too) and you deny our right to do something about it.”

            This is what I called racist:
            And I call it Apartheid by definition to keep ethnic groups expelled and denationalized for demographic reasons. And I call it antisemitic by definition to suggest that Jews as such support this, Gustav, King of the Jews. But that’s the arguments you are trying to avoid with your pitiful lies, because of your support of what I actually call racist.

            Gustav: “Care to explain how come Ben Gurion himself contradicts your claims about him? Eh, TB7?”

            These were not my claims, but his own words. Do you understand the difference? Eh, Gustav? And why don’t you simply read the article “What turned Ben-Gurion from a hawk into a dove?” you have quoted from, if you need an explanation for his change of opinion?

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”Nope, I corrected your false quotes and …

            Your explanation was utter nonsense. You claimed that the speakers of those words did not intend to massacre of Jews they just warned that other Arabs would perpetrate those massacres. So my point about what Arabs intended to do stands. Even Arab leaders admitted it.

            TB7:”And the territory west of the river Jordan wasn’t even enough:….”

            Yet here we are. The WB has been under our control for 49 years and we haven’t annexed any of the WB except East Jerusalem. We are still waiting on your Arabs to agree to a peace deal and to negotiate final borders. Something doesn’t add up with your story eh, TB7?

            Gustav:”Racism against Jews and persecution of us when we were minorities, caused us to want to live in a Jewish majority state in order to put a stop to that.”

            TB7:”Who do you mean by “us”, Gustav, King of Jews, who claims to speak for all Jews?”

            OK, TB7 (AKA Benny) I bow to your superior wisdom. I alone am the lone little Jew who advocates and believe what I argue on this site. All other Jews disagree with me (sarcasm).

            TO BE CONTINUED…

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”The majority of Jews doesn’t even live in Israel or as a majority in any other country. Not even in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, established in 1934.”

            Half the Jewish population of the world lives in Israel. Are you saying that this half is irrelevant, Benny? Oops, sorry, I meant TB7.

            TB7:”There’s nothing wrong about WANTING to live as a majority.”

            …except if one is Jewish, right TB7? Then it is wrong according to you.

            TB7:”But the end doesn’t justify the means and Jews unfortunately weren’t a majority in any territory in the world since thousands of years. The only way to become a majority in a territory which is inhabited by others is by enforcing the increase of the wanted population while decreasing the population of the unwanted.”

            … through immigration (return to our ancestral homeland) since the mid 1800s until the Jews represented a third of the population of Palestine. Then to partition the territory into two halves with one half having a Jewish majority.

            Hey, it is a form of reconquering lands which used to be ours before a European colonizer kicked us out of here. The Arabs did the same around the sixth century AD except they did it by force of arms.

            TB7:”Do you support colonialism, Gustav?”

            Don’t go there TB7, it will only reveal your hypocrisy even more…

            You call us colonizers for daring to reclaim part of our ancestral homeland from a people who are descendants of colonizers?

            While the history of the world is full of conquests by various ethnic groups of other people’s lands with much less claim to those lands than we have to Israel. Are you against colonialism, Benny? Oops I mean TB7? Then tell all the white people in America, Africa, Australia, New Zealand to hand back the lands to the natives. While you are at it, get your Arabs to return to the Arabian peninsula where they came from before they conquered half the known world of that time.

            TB7:”Just answer this these question, if you think that you are (morally) right:
            Do Palestinians have the same rights in the territory of former mandates Palestine like Jews?”

            Yes, they can do as they please in the future Palestinian state once it is established once they agree to make peace with us.

            The 1.2 million Arabs who are our citizens on the other hand have to adhere to Israeli laws. They can try to influence those laws as any other citizen, by peaceful means.

            TB7:”And do they have the same rights to implement this right like Jews did? And do they have the same rights to do to Jews what Jews haven been doing to them since 1948?”

            By “what Jews have been doing to them” you mean they Arabs were fighting against us and killing us and we fought back and killed them?

            Do you have objections to Jews defending themselves, TB7?

            TO BE CONTINUED

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            First of all, thanks to 972mag for allowing this discussion, because it bascially deals with equality (or double standards) and if it was possible at any given time since 1919.

            Gustav: “You claimed that the speakers of those words did not intend to massacre of Jews they just warned that other Arabs would perpetrate those massacres.”

            Yes, the full quote proved it. Here’s more about Azzam:
            “Shortly after Azzam assumed his position as secretary general of the Arab League, anti-Jewish riots broke out in Egypt; these riots were condemned by Azzam. It may have been this act that led David Ben-Gurion to say about him on September 18, 1947, that Azzam Pasha is “the most honest and humane among Arab leaders … one of the few Arabs in the world who has a humane outlook and ideals.””
            http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/the-makings-of-history-the-blind-misleading-the-blind-1.391260

            Gustav: “So my point about what Arabs intended to do stands. Even Arab leaders admitted it.”

            Nope. You couldn’t prove your point with any of your quotes so far.

            Gustav: “Yet here we are.”

            The point of issue was, that the Jewish Agency was never interested in truly accepting a partition, but was only accepting it as an intermediary step to prepare for territorial expansion even beyond the river Jordan.

            Gustav: “We are still waiting on your Arabs to agree to a peace deal and to negotiate final borders.”

            Your continous settlement policy reveals your true intentions. Even you argue, that Jews would have the right to settle in Palestine even without being Palestinian.

            Gustav: “… (AKA Benny) …”

            I will never prevent you from making stupid claims. Please continue, it suits you perfectly.

            Gustav: “I alone am the lone little Jew who advocates and believe what I argue on this site.”

            You go from one real extreme to the sarcastic other which just proves my point, that you acually think, you could speak for all Jews.

            The Jews didn’t even want to go to Palestine. They prefered to go to the US or somewhere else. But some where very interested to make sure that other countries kept their borders closed, so that Palestine was the only choice.

            Gustav: “Half the Jewish population of the world lives in Israel.”

            Rofl. 43%. The are probably even more Jews living in the United States than in Israel.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#Table

            Gustav: “…except if one is Jewish, right TB7? Then it is wrong according to you.”

            Gustav and his dishonest accusations. Nope. My reasoning was that Jews unfortunately weren’t a majority in any territory in the world since thousands of years, but wanting to become a majority in Palestine, doesn’t justifes the means, except if one is Jewish, right Gustav?

            Gustav: “… through immigration ..”

            Enforced immigration.

            “(return to our ancestral homeland)”

            I see. Palestinians have a right to return to their ancestral homeland, too, according to your reasoning.

            Gustav: “Then to partition the territory into two halves with one half having a Jewish majority.”

            There wasn’t even a Jewish majority in the partition area for the Jewish state. You should check the UNSCOP numbers.

            Gustav: “Hey, it is a form of reconquering lands which used to be ours before a European colonizer kicked us out of here”

            It’s after 1945, Gustav, not before. So be aware of the arguments you make, cause they could backfire. And no, nobody kicked you out, nobody has proved so far that an “exile” happened. The elite was deported by the European colonizer.

            Gustav: “You call us colonizers for daring to reclaim part of our ancestral homeland from a people who are descendants of colonizers?”

            Gustav and his dishonest rhetorical questions. No, I call anyone a colonist who immigrates under the protection of a power that enforces the immigration of foreigners upon natives.

            “Are you against colonialism, Benny? Oops I mean TB7? ”

            Yes, Stupid! Oops I mean Gustav. We are living in post colonial times. The principle of the right to self determination was introduced about a century ago. But I can understand your backwarded attitude. Do you also support genocide, because they were commited in the past? I don’t think so, but lets wait for your explicit disapproval.

            Gustav: “Yes, they can do as they please in the future Palestinian state …”

            First of all there’s allready a present Palestinian state under Israeli occupation which was recognized within the General Assembly of the UN in 2012. But I asked you if Palestinians have the same rights as Jews in the territory of former mandated Palestine, not only in parts of it. Do they have the right to settle and return everywhere? Or to “return to their ancestrial homeland”? Or do Jews also only have a right to do as they please in the present Israeli state?

            Gustav “By “what Jews have been doing to them” you …”

            Its a simple question Gustav. Do Palestinians have the right to do to Jews what Jews did to Palestininans since 1948? Yes or no? If you think that Jews are as innocent as you claim than just say “yes”.

            Gustav: “Do you have objections to Jews defending themselves, TB7?”

            No, do you have objections to Palestinians defending themselves or the territorial integrity of their country?

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”Nope. You couldn’t prove your point with any of your quotes so far.”

            This is too funny…

            I don’t have to prove it old buddy. Your Arab leaders whom I quoted prove it themselves.

            They warned that the Jews would be massacred. That we would be driven into the sea. You say, they individually didn’t like the idea? So what?! LOL, but they issued a clear warning that it would happen because their fellow Arabs intended to do it….

            Want proof? There is proof for you. Or are you going to deny even that now? Okey dokey…

            TO BE CONTINUED…

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            CONTINUED FROM BEFORE…

            “Gustav: “Then to partition the territory into two halves with one half having a Jewish majority.”

            TB7:”There wasn’t even a Jewish majority in the partition area for the Jewish state. You should check the UNSCOP numbers.”

            There wasn’t? LOL, that’s news to me. And everyone else. Go on I dare you to give me a link to a reputable site which proves your claim.

            So why were the Arabs attacking Jews indiscriminately to prevent such a non threatening thing to them?

            Gustav: “Hey, it is a form of reconquering lands which used to be ours before a European colonizer kicked us out of here”

            TB7:”It’s after 1945, Gustav, not before. So be aware of the arguments you make, cause they could backfire.”

            LOL. What has 1945 to do with it. I said we returned to Palestine, our ancestral homeland and joined our brothers who never left from the mid 1800s. So our numbers increased throgh immigration, not through conquest by the sword which is how the Arabs got here.

            TB7:”And no, nobody kicked you out, nobody has proved so far that an “exile” happened. The elite was deported by the European colonizer.”

            Deportation is not exile?

            Only the elite? So how did the inversion happen? Did we have more elites than plebs? LOL, you can’t make this stuff up. Are you a comedian, TB7? If you are, you suck at it…

            Gustav: “You call us colonizers for daring to reclaim part of our ancestral homeland from a people who are descendants of colonizers?”

            TB7:”Gustav and his dishonest rhetorical questions. No, I call anyone a colonist who immigrates under the protection of a power that enforces the immigration of foreigners upon natives.”

            I told you before. There is only one dishonest person in this discussion of ours. And that person isn’t me.

            Anyone who calls returning natives to their ancestral homeland colonists is by definition dishonest.

            GUSTAV:“Are you against colonialism, Benny? Oops I mean TB7? ”

            TB7:”Yes, Stupid! Oops I mean Gustav. We are living in post colonial times. The principle of the right to self determination was introduced about a century ago. But I can understand your backwarded attitude. Do you also support genocide, because they were commited in the past? I don’t think so, but lets wait for your explicit disapproval.”

            What Benny, oops TB7, is really saying here is that after nearly all of humanity colonized lands for thousands of years, lands that they had nowhere near the claims to to the extent of our claim to Palestine, in places like America, Australia, Africa, New Zealand, and the Middle East and North Africa which the Arabs colonized, after they all profited from that enterprise and still profiting from it today, they sat back and declared an end of the colonial era.

            And what do you know? They now point at Jews again for returning to our ancestral homeland from the mid 1800s and say, nah ya can’t do that no more. We did it but you can’t even claim your own homeland back coz we say so.

            Ok. Now let’s stop this nonsense TB7. Not everyone says that. Many endorse what we did. Only hypocrites like you and many Arabs (not even all of them) make a laughing stock of yourselves by trying that silly stunt.

            TO BE CONTINUED….

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            CONTINUED FROM BEFORE…

            Gustav: “…except if one is Jewish, right TB7? Then it is wrong according to you.”

            TB7:”Gustav and his dishonest accusations. Nope. My reasoning was that Jews unfortunately weren’t a majority in any territory in the world since thousands of years, but wanting to become a majority in Palestine, doesn’t justifes the means, except if one is Jewish, right Gustav?”

            What “means”, TB7?

            Our need to survive as a free people who are no longer oppressed? Yes, oppressed by Arabs too. Those “means”? Our need to survive as a people?

            Gustav: “… through immigration ..”

            TB7:”Enforced immigration.”

            Nah, we covered this before. The sovereign rulers of the land, first the Ottoman Turks, then the Brits, allowed us to immigrate to Palestine. End of story. Nothing was enforced.

            GUSTAv:“(return to our ancestral homeland)”

            TB7:”I see. Palestinians have a right to return to their ancestral homeland, too, according to your reasoning.”

            Booooooring. I already answered this. They can live in most of the West Bank. Not in Israel coz no one lets millions of sworn enemies to live amongst them. Moreover, we accepted nearly a million Jewish refugees from Arab countries. So your Arabs can continue to live in those Arab countries. Look at it as a population exchange.

            TO BE CONTINUED….

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Gustav: “Yes, they can do as they please in the future Palestinian state …”

            TB7:”First of all there’s allready a present Palestinian state under Israeli occupation which was recognized within the General Assembly of the UN in 2012.”

            We don’t know the final borders of that state yet.

            But I gotta laugh. Funny how suddenly you give the same UN credence when they vote in favor of Arabs but you pooh-pooh UN resolution 181 which partitioned Palestine into two states, one Jewish, one Arab. You said that was just a recommendation and it was illegal. But this one carries weight for you? It shows what a hypocrite you are.

            I on the other hand agree with you that both are just recommendations. Yet they DO carry some weight.

            TB7:”But I asked you if Palestinians have the same rights as Jews in the territory of former mandated Palestine, not only in parts of it. Do they have the right to settle and return everywhere?”

            And I told you. Those who live in Israel can continue to live here as long as they adhere to the laws of the land.

            The WB Arabs can stay in the WB.

            The descendants of refugees who live in the Arab countries which kicked out nearly a million Jews can stay there because we accepted those Jewish refugees into Israel. So a population exchange took place.

            Keep on asking. And I will keep on giving you the same answer because contrary to your wishes, we are not going to willingly slit our own throats by allowing millions of our enemies to come and live amongst us. Particularly since the population exchange took place.

            Ya don’t like it? We don’t care. No one would behave differently if they would be in our shoes.

            Millions of Hindus fled Pakistan and millions of Muslims fled India when the Indian subcontinent was partitioned. Yet it is all forgotten now. No one is jumping up about it. They each settled amongst their own. Only the Arabs and their lunatic supporters cry over spilt milk. Milk which they caused to spill!

            TB7:”Or do Jews also only have a right to do as they please in the present Israeli state?”

            Yep, in the same way that Arabs have the right to do as they please in their many states.

            TB7:”Its a simple question Gustav. Do Palestinians have the right to do to Jews what Jews did to Palestininans since 1948? Yes or no? If you think that Jews are as innocent as you claim than just say “yes”.

            You never ask simple questions, TB7, you only ask stupid ones.

            What have we done to them since 1948? Between 1949 and 1967 (before the occupation) We fought against their Fedayeen terrorists whom they sent across the armistice lines to murder our civilians. And nothing changed since 1967, their terrorists are now calling themselves different names, like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa and more…

            As for the “settlements”? Yep, the Arabs are fighting for ALL the land between the river and the sea, while we took 10% of the WB for which two of our past prime ministers offered land swaps not that we were legally obliged to do so given that this started as a civil war and we had just as much right to fight for a share of the spoils as the Arabs who started the war did. Nevertheless, our two past prime ministers offered compromise solutions for the sake of peace. But what did we get for it? More violence!

            Any more questions? Wanna rehash and repeat everything else again? No matter how often you’ll do it, I will clearly demonstrate to you that your Arabs are the greedy aggressors who want EVERYTHING!!!

            “Gustav: “Do you have objections to Jews defending themselves, TB7?”

            TB7:”No, do you have objections to Palestinians defending themselves or the territorial country?”

            But they [the Arabs] were offered a country. They could have lived peacefully in their own country since 1948. Instead, they started a war and tried to make us stateless. So what befell them, they brought down on their own heads it because they wanted the country of the Jews too. And they continue their folly even today. You call that self defence?

            Reply to Comment
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