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How Gaza's Return March can elevate the one-state movement

The Great Return March has the potential to lend its momentum to grassroots and popular struggles beyond Gaza’s fence, in the West Bank, Jerusalem, and inside Israel.

By Awad Abdel Fattah

Palestinians march toward the Israeli fence during the Great Return March in central Gaza, May 14, 2018. (Muhammad Zaanoun/Activestills.org)

Palestinians march toward the Israeli fence during the Great Return March in central Gaza, May 14, 2018. (Muhammad Zaanoun/Activestills.org)

It is still premature to predict the fate of the Great March of Return, which is the brainchild of primarily young activists who managed, with great success, to involve the entire political spectrum in the Gaza Strip in an unarmed civil resistance. The march is being viewed by many as a remarkable and exceptional development that, if sustained, could open a new horizon politically and strategically for the Palestinians — as well as for Israelis who are critical of Israel’s oppressive apartheid — to launch a serious campaign for an alternative vision and path of struggle.

Two main factors make this astonishing mobilization near Gaza’s apartheid fence distinctive. The first is the rise of young vanguards to motivate the entire Palestinian political polity to fully engage in this civil activity. For over a year, I have followed the writings of one of the young, leading figures of the movement, Ahmad Abu Rtema; he too has followed my writings. We chatted several times before he, along with his partners, helped to turn the idea of the march into action. It was clear that Ahmad represented a new and creative thinking among the young generation, and was eager to continue learning. What further attracted me was his civil discourse towards the Israeli public: his support for a single democratic state in historic Palestine – where Palestinian Arabs, including refugees, and Israeli Jews can live together as equals – is a part of his political convictions.

The second factor is the endorsement of the Return March by Hamas and other factions in Gaza. This indicates a shift in these organizations’ political thinking, which could resonate across Palestinian society and around the world. Hamas’ immediate support of the idea of the march was partly motivated by the severe humanitarian and political crises facing the movement and the entire population of Gaza. These include growing internal tensions and external pressures, aggravated by relentless Israeli aggression, the antagonism of Western governments and Arab regimes, and the latest sanctions imposed by the president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, which have added insult to injury.

Palestinian protesters during the Gaza return march. April 20, 2018. (Mohammed Zaanoun / Activestills.org)

Palestinian protesters during the Gaza return march. April 20, 2018. (Mohammed Zaanoun / Activestills.org)

Indeed, in recent years, Hamas has been trying, without real success, to reform its political platform and discourse to make it more acceptable to the international community, and has cited its support for popular struggle on numerous occasions. The movement’s backing of the Return March is in line with this intention. However, the party which has the most interest in thwarting such a change is Israel, which wants to maintain Hamas’ image as a terrorist organization, and Abbas’ image as an objector to negotiations. The execution of Palestinian marchers along the Gaza fence also reflects Israel’s frustration with this type of struggle, because it cannot cope with its moral and nonviolent nature. This is further shown by Israel’s admittance that it lost the media war over Gaza these past few weeks.

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Since it is not interested in starting a fourth war with Hamas, particularly due to the situation on the northern border with Syria, Israel may opt to silence the civil resistance in Gaza through an agreement that would temporarily ease the humanitarian crisis, without offering any major political or structural changes. The news about Israeli efforts to achieve such a short-term agreement worries the organizers of the march, because it could undermine their most important strategic political objectives: the full removal of the blockade of Gaza, and the growing momentum for the Palestinians’ right to return.

Two signs of hope

Amidst these difficult realities, two developments have emerged in recent years that offer important signs of hope. The first is the growing voices among Palestinians and allies working outside traditional factional structures who, like Ahmad, are calling for a single democratic state in historic Palestine as an alternative to partition, apartheid, and colonialism. These voices include prominent Palestinian and Jewish Israeli intellectuals, academics, activists, and organizations.

The second is the renewal of the Palestinian popular struggle, and the growing conviction among Palestinians that this method of resistance must be widely promoted and prioritized by all factions and movements. Although popular resistance and civil disobedience have always been integral to the Palestinian struggle (and have always faced suppression at the hands of Israel’s military force), over the last six years, Palestinians in Jerusalem and its neighboring villages, as well as other places in the West Bank, have witnessed small but notable “intifadas.” The most inspiring of these was the 11-day intifada against the metal detectors at the Haram al-Sharif (Temple Mount), which achieved its specific goal of removing the electronic devices from the area.

Palestinian worshippers pray at Lions' Gate at the entrance to Al-Aqsa compound. Metal detectors were placed outside the site by Israeli authorities following an attack by Palestinian citizens of Israel on Israeli security forces, July 16, 2017. (Yonatan Sindel/Flash90)

Palestinian worshippers pray at the entrance to Al-Aqsa compound as an act of civil disobedience protesting metal detectors placed outside the site by Israeli authorities following an attack by Palestinian citizens of Israel against  security forces, July 16, 2017. (Yonatan Sindel/Flash90)

How should we interpret and react to these two promising developments? The challenge, I believe, is to connect and utilize these developments as a catalyst and inspiration for building sustainable co-resistance, guided by a common vision: a united, democratic alternative to the existing apartheid regime. Given the demise of the two-state solution – which I believe is an unjust and racist proposal – we are finding ourselves in a historic phase where both the vision and the means to achieve an alternative future have become impervious to slander and defamation, and have become effective in rallying public opinion because of their morality and inclusivity.

How and where do we start?

Even if Israel manages to stifle the Return March, or other states or parties manage to block its strategic goals, popular resistance should continue to be embraced as a key strategy of resistance – not only in Gaza, but in Jerusalem, the West Bank, in refugee camps in Arab countries, and inside Israel. For that objective to materialize, a clear and well-planned strategy of grassroots struggle, composed of different phases, is required. The shift by all Palestinian factions to unarmed resistance, in the style of the First Intifada, also offers opportunities not only for all Palestinians to partake in the struggle, but also for Israelis who fight against apartheid.

Earlier this year, some 20 Palestinians and Israelis met in Haifa and decided to start the ‘One Democratic State Campaign’ (ODSc). The number of supporters – intellectuals, academics, activists, and others – who have joined so far, within a short period of time, is far greater than we had hoped, showing that the time is ripe for such an initiative. Our mission is to engage in an organized framework to create an alternative political consciousness, which entails a moral obligation to fight injustices, colonization, racist separation, and all forms of oppression.

This movement can begin with Palestinians and progressive Israelis inside the Green Line, while networking and coordinating with interested groups in the occupied territories and in the diaspora. However, for this joint struggle to succeed, this progressive coalition must be transformed into a mass grassroots movement with wide public support. It is a long walk to liberation, freedom, equality, and social justice – and it is not an easy walk. But we believe that it is the only way to promote life, instead of more death and destruction.

Awad Abdel Fattah is a former head of the Balad Party and a co-founder of the One Democratic State Campaign (ODSc).

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    1. Ben

      A well-articulated and historic statement. In this historic phase of the struggle for liberation from the occupation of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem, following on the demise of the two-state solution, and in this historic phase of the struggle against colonization, racist separation, and all forms of oppression inside and outside Israel, I support the One Democratic State Campaign.

      Spread the word. I’ve emailed this article to ten friends inside and outside Israel and asked each of them to send it to ten others, and so on. Go and do likewise.

      Reply to Comment
      • Lewis from Afula

        I agree with Ben. Mass expulsion of foreign Arab settlers back to Jordan and Egypt is the only sane solution.

        Reply to Comment
    2. Ben

      Time to rewrite some smug narratives here and expose how flimsy and self-serving they are.

      Jeffrey Wilens, I have news for you. There is no history of Muslim or Christian Arabs living in “equality” in Jewish states or Jewish-occupied lands. At best, at best, they lived in relative safety for periods of time as second class citizens. Moreover, the Israeli Jews are violent and selectively barbaric with no history of true liberal democracy as opposed to ‘popular’/Feiglinist democracy masquerading as the real thing. Multi-ethnic states are having big but surmountable problems these days—surmountable if they have effective leadership and not the Netanyahu-Trump kind of rabble-rousing, demagogic exploitation of and purposeful fueling of divisions. But what Awad Abdel Fattah is doing is actively hoping for and promoting a movement for Israel-Palestine to lead the way and be a “light unto the nations.” Seems like you begrudge that and I wonder why.

      The fact is Zionist Jewish civilization itself is based on colonialism, racism against Black Africans, and subjugation of Arabs. Could the Jews of Israel and the Palestinians, working together, raise themselves or would the opposite happen and the country would descend into civil war? If the latter it will be in large measure because the Jews of Israel, who have all the power, cannot tolerate relinquishing their overlord status, with which they have become set in their ways and too comfortable with to part with, and because of leaders like Netanyahu. I hope a handful of Jewish and Muslim intellectuals and others start and sustain a movement that will help avert that.

      Wilens, do you see how easy it is to cut through your condescension and lack of insight about yourself and Israelis? You have all these smug, lazy, condescending assumptions but do not see yourself and Israelis for who you and they really are. And you are true to a right wing pattern: pounce on any hopeful, idealistic well-meaning, well-constructed initiative and naysay it to death, strangle it in its crib, before it gets out of hand. We wouldn’t want peace breaking out now would we? What a nightmare that would be.

      Reply to Comment
    3. Bruce Gould

      @Ido: It’s interesting what various Israeli groups that are heavily dominated by military and ex-military people have to say about Israel’s future.

      http://www.bluewhitefuture.org/?page_id=560

      Absent a resolution of the conflict, and given the continued settlement activity and increased settler violence, even if condemned by the government, Israel faces growing international isolation which will affect its economy and its security to an unacceptable extent. A closer look at the essential national objectives of the Palestinians suggests that only little tangible benefit lies in yet one more international resolution on their behalf. Loss of Palestinian hope may lead to increased violence. Both sides stand to lose by continuing the status quo…Israel should prepare for a reality of two states for two people, most notably by declaring that it does not have claims of sovereignty over most of the occupied territories, and by planning and acting accordingly, including preparing for the relocation of settlers residing east of the separation barrier to Israel proper.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        Bruce, the current Palestinian leadership does not consider Israel as legitimate and they refuse any kind of peace agreement that will allow Israel to continue existing. They consider all of Israel, from the river to the sea, as theirs which should be “cleansed” of Jews.
        The Palestinians refuse to end the conflict without ending Israel. You should know this if you have been aware of what the Palestinian leadership say and do unless you live under a rock at the bottom of the sea.
        Like I said in the past, I’m in favor of removing West Bank settlements as part of an actual peace agreement, sadly the Palestinians see all of Israel as “the occupation” and they don’t hide this fact.
        You ignore that Israel has offered an almost complete withdrawal from the West Bank as part of an ongoing peace negotiations. I’m in favor of a two-states solution, the creation of a second Arab Palestinian state (after Jordan of course, which is the Palestinian state, meaning an Arab state in the geographic region known as ‘Palestine’) is preferable to the ludicrous unrealistic ‘one-state solution’. I have no doubt what kind of country that would be, just take a look at Gaza and the Palestinian Authority or at any other Arab state on the planet, but it’ll be a better option than Israel committing suicide and fulfilling Arafat’s dream of ending Israel without firing a single bullet.
        You mention “a closer look at the essential national objectives of the Palestinians” without addressing the most glaring problem: the existence of Israel, the homeland of the Jewish people, is not part of their “vision” and they say so openly and have it in writing in their charters.

        Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Bruce, how typical of Ha’aretz to edit out what Netanyahu actually said and change its meaning to match their agenda, never mind they admit themselves he said it for political reasons at the time to get voters from another party. Also the peace agreements I mentioned were not on his watch of course and his watch is ending as I’m sure you are aware of the various investigations he is currently involved in, at least 2 of them are heading for indictment.

            What he actually said: “I think that anyone who moves to establish a Palestinian state today, and evacuate areas, is giving radical Islam an area from which to attack the State of Israel. This is the true reality that has been created in past years. Those that ignore it are burying their heads in the sand. The left does this, buries its head in the sand, time and again.”

            He’s not wrong. Hamas was trying to take control of the West Bank. What do you think would happen then ? are you still in denial what Hamas are and what are their agenda regarding Israel and Jews in general ? same goes for Fatah.

            This is what he said during his Bar Ilan speech: “if we receive a guarantee for security arrangements needed for Israel and if the Palestinians recognize Israel as the home of the Jewish people, we will be willing in a future peace deal to reach a solution of a demilitarized Palestinian state side by side with the Jewish state.”

            As I’m sure you are aware, the current Palestinian leadership will not under any circumstances accept such demands, it goes against their clearly stated objectives.
            Netanyahu was willing to negotiate toward the creation of a second Palestinian state. negotiations require 2 parties. Currently, as I explained, the Palestinians consider Israel as illegitimate and they refuse any kind of compromise that will ensure Israel’s existence. They say so openly.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Geller: “…The Palestinians refuse to end the conflict without ending Israel. You should know this….”

            We have here a perpetual purveyor of poppycock. Tireless stale propaganda. It never ends. I once had a broken record like this on very old vinyl but I threw it away.
            As many have pointed out, Israel cannot cast the blame on Hamas. In the West Bank there’s a far more moderate government, and Israel is doing nothing to end the occupation there. The Palestinian Authority is trying to maintain quiet and security for Israelis but receives nothing in return.

            And then when Geller gets confronted on what Israeli leaders actually say and do he shillyshallies away with this song and dance (I paraphrase, LoL):
            “Oh, he didn’t really mean that, he meant this, and anyway you have to understand he’s just a politician pandering to his base (as if the Palestinian leaders are not also politicians with a base—but you’d have to see them as human beings to accord them that consideration and that dynamic flexibility and Geller is incapable of doing that) and anyway he doesn’t have any real power, and anyway he’s losing office soon (as if the ones jockeying to replace him are not even more extremist).

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, I don’t get it. Do you intentionally block your ears and eyes and refuse to accept the fact that the Palestinians openly and very clearly call for the elimination of Israel and the murder of Jews or you simply are not aware this is reality ?
            Are they too subtle for you ? are the links in my Facebook comment above fake ? are those actors playing Palestinian leaders ?
            https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-assures-critics-israels-destruction-still-a-goal/
            http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=11319

            How do you call this “propaganda” when they openly and very, very clearly say it to your face ? do you suffer from brain damage ?
            “As many have pointed out, Israel cannot cast the blame on Hamas” – how can you say something that stupid ? so the Jihadist terrorist organization who declared Jihad on Israel and attacked Israel, who openly say they have no intention of ever accepting Israel’s legitimate existence and openly call for the wholesale slaughter of Jews, who are responsible for the current situation in Gaza, are blameless ? this is insane.
            “Israel is doing nothing to end the occupation in the West Bank” sure, besides offering several times to withdraw from it as part of a peace negotiations, a couple of times with the US backing. Minor detail, right ?
            “I paraphrase, LoL” – are you lying again ? do you want me to list again the huge pile of your lies, historic fabrications, embarrassing mistakes, etc ? the list is quite big as you recall.
            “Oh, he didn’t really mean that” – I repeated what was written in the first paragraph in the article itself. I also pointed out how they edited what he said, changed its meaning out of context, did you forget to mention that ?
            “as if the Palestinian leaders are not also politicians” – If you call Islamic genocidal Jihadist terrorists like Hamas “politicians” or ignore the openly stated goals of Fatah regarding Israel you are more delusional than i Thought.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, I don’t get it. Do you intentionally block your ears and eyes and refuse to accept the fact that the Palestinians openly and very clearly call for the elimination of Israel and the murder of Jews or you simply are not aware this is reality ?
            Are they too subtle for you ? are the links in my Facebook comment above fake ? are those actors playing Palestinian leaders ?
            (links with proof removed and posted above in the Facebook section to avoid having this site take days to post this answer)

            How do you call this “propaganda” when they openly and very, very clearly say it to your face ? do you suffer from brain damage ?
            “As many have pointed out, Israel cannot cast the blame on Hamas” – how can you say something that stupid ? so the Jihadist terrorist organization who declared Jihad on Israel and attacked Israel, who openly say they have no intention of ever accepting Israel’s legitimate existence and openly call for the wholesale slaughter of Jews, who are responsible for the current situation in Gaza, are blameless ? this is insane.
            “Israel is doing nothing to end the occupation in the West Bank” sure, besides offering several times to withdraw from it as part of a peace negotiations, a couple of times with the US backing. Minor detail, right ?
            “I paraphrase, LoL” – are you lying again ? do you want me to list again the huge pile of your lies, historic fabrications, embarrassing mistakes, etc ? the list is quite big as you recall.
            “Oh, he didn’t really mean that” – I repeated what was written in the first paragraph in the article itself. I also pointed out how they edited what he said, changed its meaning out of context, did you forget to mention that ?
            “as if the Palestinian leaders are not also politicians” – If you call Islamic genocidal Jihadist terrorists like Hamas “politicians” or ignore the openly stated goals of Fatah regarding Israel you are more delusional than i Thought.

            Reply to Comment
          • Bruce Gould

            @Ido: When Israeli politicians say things it’s for ‘political’ purposes, when Palestinians say things it’s because they really mean them.

            If the Israeli government was interested in a negotiated two state solution they wouldn’t approve the construction of one more house beyond the 67 border.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Bruce, I was repeating what your own article said in the first paragraph. Why did you ignore the rest of my post ? like you completely ignored the first post you responded to ?
            How can you call Islamic Jihadists genocidal terrorists who have “Israel must be destroyed” as an objective “politicians” ? you think they’re joking and don’t actually mean that ? you’re not familiar with the Islamic Jihadist ideology that guides them ?
            Are you not familiar with the openly stated goals of Fatah/PLO ? the same ones from the day they were founded (at a time before the West Bank occupation existed because they see all of Israel as theirs of course) ?
            I repeat: your article changed what he said to match their agenda, what he actually said was “I think that anyone who moves to establish a Palestinian state TODAY, and evacuate areas, is giving radical Islam an area from which to attack the State of Israel. This is the true reality that has been created in past years. Those that ignore it are burying their heads in the sand. The left does this, buries its head in the sand, time and again.”
            And he’s not wrong. Hamas was trying to take control of the West Bank. What do you think would happen then ? are you in denial what Hamas are and what are their agenda regarding Israel and Jews in general ? same goes for Fatah.

            This is what he said during his Bar Ilan speech: “if we receive a guarantee for security arrangements needed for Israel and if the Palestinians recognize Israel as the home of the Jewish people, we will be willing in a future peace deal to reach a solution of a demilitarized Palestinian state side by side with the Jewish state.”

            As I’m sure you are aware, the current Palestinian leadership will not under any circumstances accept such demands, it goes against their clearly stated objectives.
            Also you ignored for some reason the second point: the peace agreements I mentioned were not on Netanyahu’s watch and his watch is ending as I’m sure you are aware.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            As Bruce conveys, Israeli military and ex-military advise in no uncertain terms that—

            “Israel should prepare for a reality of two states for two people, most notably by declaring that it does not have claims of sovereignty over most of the occupied territories, and by planning and acting accordingly, including preparing for the relocation of settlers residing east of the separation barrier to Israel proper.”

            —and if Israel did that, Geller has to know that that would suck aaaall the air out of the Hamas/Jihad extremists Geller loves to rail against and pretend Israel truly deeply fears, and loves to pretend foreclose any move on Israel’s part except more creeping annexation; and would instantly and permanently empower the moderates Ido pretends do not exist, which moderates Ido pretends to pine for because Ido is, he swears, so, so against the occupation. LoL.

            Will Ido back the initiative, the advice of the Israeli generals? And push for it? It is the moment of truth….

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, not sure if you are aware but for negotiations you need 2 partners and as I explained in detail the current Palestinian leadership do not see Israel as legitimate, they openly call for its elimination, they consider all of Israel, from the River to the Sea, as theirs. They openly call for the “cleansing” of Jews form “Palestine”, hell, they brainwash their children with this.
            As I said, I’m in favor of a second Arab Palestinian state. The Palestinians are currently in favor of Israel not existing and for Jews to die, they say so openly and act upon it. Shut your eyes and block your ears, reality will not change according to your delusions.
            “pretend Israel truly deeply fears” – yes, we pretend to be apprehensive when Hamas terrorists slaughter children in their beds or when they bomb our houses with tens of thousands of missiles and rockets. It’s actually not that bad. Seriously, are you deranged ?
            What “moderates” ? the ones who want to turn Israel into a de-facto Arab state ? you have got to be joking.
            “Ido is, he swears, so, so against the occupation. LoL.” – are you 6 years old ? it would explain so much. I only explained this 8 or 9 times or so so I understand why you are still having difficulty grasping my view on the West Bank.
            “Will Ido back the initiative, the advice of the Israeli generals?” – for the 10th time: I support the two-states solution. Maybe this time it’ll sink in.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Aaaaaand….he fails the test!
            Geller fails the test!
            The truth emerges.

            There is not ONE honest statement in Geller’s entire set of replies to Bruce and to me. Not one. Just a whole lot of repetitive, mindless propaganda talking points. A dogged, studied avoidance of substance. (With loads of his characteristic, insufferable patronizing too.) A broken record.
            Wow.

            Bruce (with his laconic style, his talent for succinctness) got it right. For Ido, when Israeli politicians say things it’s for ‘political’ purposes, but when Palestinian politicians say things it’s because they really mean them. (Unless they say something irenic and then they don’t really mean it. See how that works? )

            Ido refuses to see Palestinians as human beings. To sustain his game he HAS to vilify them, dehumanize them, lie about them. Ido can’t even admit they have politicians or play politics! That’s how dehumanized he NEEDS to make them in order to play the game he plays.

            Quod erat faciendum, quod erat demonstrandum.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, What’s with the ridiculous lies again ? I just posted both Hamas and PLO/Fatah openly and very, very clearly saying exactly what I claimed they said.
            I ask again: are those fake ? are those actors pretending to be Hamas and PLO leaders ?
            So this is the situation we are at again:
            Hamas and PLO/Fatah: “we see all of Israel as ours, Israel should be eliminated, we say so openly and have it in our charters, “Palestine” should be Jew-Free (Hamas: all Jews should die), etc”.
            Ben: “nanananana.. I’m not listening! no they didn’t! you’re a liar!.. Zionist propaganda!”

            The cognitive dissonance must be painful, knowing that I’m right as evident by the undeniable proof I provided of the Palestinians themselves saying what I claimed they say, and you still clinging to your lies. I hope it’s not too bad.

            Bruce (with his laconic style, his talent for succinctness) didn’t address a single point I’ve made as I already mentioned, he just simply avoided touching it. A different technique than yours of simply lying about it, but similarly pathetic.
            “For Ido, when Israeli politicians say things it’s for ‘political’ purposes” – and you lie again. The article Bruce linked said that, I only mentioned this twice so I get what you still can’t grasp it.

            “but when Palestinian politicians say things” – you mean the things they said and acted upon from the moment their various organizations were created ? their declared objectives from day 1 ? Hamas’ stated goals based on their Islamic ideology is not their actual goal ?
            Oh yes, the Palestinian terrorists do act like “politicians”, when they lie to the West for the ‘Useful Idiots’ while ensuring their people, in Arabic, that their goal still remains the same, the elimination of Israel and the murder of Jews.
            The proof is right there in the Facebook comments section, a PLO top executive saying exactly that, the Hamas charter modification that never were, explained in detail. Are you going to shut your eyes and ears again ? lie some more ?

            How do you expect me to take you seriously when you claim something is not there when it’s right in front of your face ? So every symbol any Palestinian terrorist group have, showing the entire country of Israel as theirs, draped by the Palestinian flag, is a printing error ?
            I’m curious how do you rationalize the lies you tell yourself so you won’t have to handle the uncomfortable reality. This sort of denial should be studied.

            “Ido refuses to see Palestinians as human beings” – and you lie again. I’ll add it to the pile. I specifically talk about the Palestinian leadership. The ones who want to eliminate my country and kill my family.
            “Ido can’t even admit they have politicians or play politics” – I just did. The fact that you try to excuse the openly declared goals of the Palestinian terrorist organizations, goals which they act upon since day one, as “politics” goes beyond denial and into ‘Useful Idiot’ territory.

            Habetis bona deum.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Sigh. You’re a broken record. I can find all sorts of extremist bluster by the Israeli side too and post that too and declare that this “proves” such and such. (Again, your use of “proof” is one of your sillier practices.) All you’re doing is making Bruce’s point for him. The Palestinians have recognized Israel, in 1993 and many times since. When is Israel going to recognize Palestine’s right to exist?–something it has never done. Mahmoud Abbas, just to pick one example, in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague in 2011, said that the Palestinian people recognize Israel’s right to exist and that they hope the Israeli government will respond by recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967.

            Bruce Gould got it right:

            ‘The question of Israel’s “right to exist” is like asking if the moon has a “right to exist”, it’s meaningless hasbara and distracts from more important issues. As for Israel’s demand to be recognized as a “Jewish state”, that too is meaningless – international law doesn’t recognize the concept.

            https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/the-bogus-demand-to-recog_b_765218.html

            It is up to Israelis to decide what kind of state they want to live in — a secular democracy or a theocracy (the majority will obviously choose the first). The Palestinians have enough to worry about without defining Israel….Once borders are decided upon, Palestinians recognize Israel as the “State of Israel.” Israelis recognize Palestine as the “State of Palestine.” It’s that simple.’

            More to follow, on Netanyahu’s trick.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            ‘What has yet to be fully recognized is that the single most significant impact of this “Jewish state” demand is that it effectively dismisses and reverses the 1993 Palestinian recognition of Israel. This concession made it ridiculous for anyone to argue that the core of the problem was Palestinians’ refusal to recognize Israel. But now, hey presto, it is once again possible to present Palestinian recognition of Israel as a major issue, because it wasn’t recognition of Israel as a “Jewish state.”

            It doesn’t matter that no one ever asked the Palestinians to do so until 2007, or that there are a great many complications, ambiguities, and grave difficulties associated with it. It has become a mantra of much of the pro-Israel constituency the world over that the 1993 recognition of Israel by the PLO is all but irrelevant, and that until Palestinians recognize Israel as a “Jewish state,” their intention to end the conflict and live in peace remains very much open to question.

            So, this new demand solves the problem that one side has lived up to its core commitment under a two-state solution – recognizing the statehood of the other party – while the other side has not. It pushes the diplomatic, psychological, and political clock back before 1993, to an era where Palestinians are once again being asked to demonstrate their willingness to live in peace with Israel by uttering some magic mantra.

            It elides the fact that, from a Palestinian and Arab point of view, the 1993 recognition of Israel was the mother of all concessions: a recognition that Palestinians were surrendering their political claim to around 78% of what had very recently been their country, in the sense that they were a large majority there until 1948. …by effectively negating, at least at the psychological and cultural registers, the 1993 Palestinian recognition of Israel, it magically appears to even the scales once again.

            But the truth remains that one party, the Palestinians, has recognized the independent statehood of the other, Israel. And Israel has never recognized an independent Palestine or the Palestinian right to an independent state.’

            https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-when-will-you-recognize-us-1.5333475

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Again: “Jewish state” – the homeland of the Jewish people, based on the historic fact of Israel being the historic homeland of the Jewish nation.
            “It has become a mantra of much of the pro-Israel constituency the world” – why on earth will they insist on the Palestinians to drop the demand to turn it into a de-facto Arab state, right ? How strange.
            “over that the 1993 recognition of Israel by the PLO” – maybe a recognition of Israel’s existence, not a recognition of its legitimacy which is the point. See the Facebook comments section for detailed proof.
            You again fail to grasp the fact that the Palestinians refuse to accept Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people because it contradicts with their demand to turn it into a de-facto Arab state by bringing in millions of Arab “refugees”, effectively ending Israel without firing a single bullet, Arafat’s dream.
            They say so openly. Apparently you had no idea.

            “while the other side has not” – false. Repeating this lie won’t somehow make it real. why the Oslo Accords then ? why Gaza withdrawal ? why the numerous peace negotiations attempts to create a second Palestinian state ?
            “the 1993 recognition of Israel was the mother of all concessions” – as I proved in the links above, this is total nonsense.

            “a recognition that Palestinians were surrendering their political claim to around 78% of what had very recently been their country” – hilarious lie, a Palestinian country never existed. “Palestine” is a name of a geographic region last controlled by the
            British Mandate, a Palestinian country, the way the Palestinian narrative lies about, never existed. In fact most of Palestine is now a Palestinian Arab state, known as Jordan which was established on most of “Palestine”.

            “in the sense that they were a large majority there until 1948” – and that’s why the Partition Plan was based on population allocation. In fact giving the Arabs the best land available, see the Partition Plan map.
            The Arabs rejected it and tried to genocide the Jews. They failed. I believe even the Palestinian President himself admitted it was a mistake and they should have accepted the Partition Plan.

            “But the truth remains that one party, the Palestinians, has recognized the independent statehood of the other, Israel” – lie, false. See the links above. The Palestinians don’t recognize the legitimate existence of Israel.
            “And Israel has never recognized an independent Palestine or the Palestinian right to an independent state” – again, lie. Why the Oslo Accords then ? why Gaza withdrawal ? why the numerous peace negotiations attempts meant to lead to a second Palestinian state ?

            I have no idea why again and again you continue to link Premium Ha’aretz pages with articles behind a paywall. Maybe you think everyone subscribes to their science fiction site. I don’t. You can continue to link them though if it makes you happy.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, the leaders of the Palestinians’ stated goals, as they have been from day one, are not “extremist bluster”, it’s their stated goals. Do you understand ? how hard is it to grasp this simple concept when they say it to your face ?
            The Jihadist Islamic ideology of Hamas, the leaders of half the Palestinians, are a joke ? of course I’m repeating myself because the facts remain the same, the Palestinian leadership see all of Israel as theirs, they openly call for the elimination of Israel and for the murder of Jews, they openly say they don’t consider Israel as legitimate and you again and again refuse to accept reality because it doesn’t match your delusional point of view even though it has no relation to what actually happens in reality. This is the beauty about facts, no matter how much you pathetically try to deny them, they remain the same.
            The links are right there, how can you no see this ? you think they’re joking ? you think they don’t actually mean it ? the principle the PLO was built upon, since before the West Bank occupation existed, is a joke ? the Muslim Brotherhood ideology regarding Israel’s elimination and the “cleansing” of Jews from the Islamic Waqf is not real ?
            How delusional can you be ? they say it to your face, repeatedly, they said it almost weekly during the demonstrations in Gaza, Hamas’ own Islamic Imams preach it in their mosques, they brainwash their children with this ideology and you think it’s nothing ? this is some bizarre combination of denial, stupidity and delusion. I’m actually impressed.
            Do you understand what ‘proof’ means ? I claimed something and posted the people I claimed said something literally saying it, repeatedly. Are those fake ? are they other people pretending to be Hamas/PLO leaders ?

            “he Palestinians have recognized Israel, in 1993 and many times since” – false. Lie. Hamas openly denies this, the PLO openly denies this. I linked the proof (again) in the Facebook comments section.

            Hamas can’t accept Israel’s legitimate existence because it goes against the basis of their Islamic ideology, Israel is Islamic Waqf and therefore it belongs to the Muslims.

            “When is Israel going to recognize Palestine’s right to exist?” – How many times have I explained this ? are you dense ? first of all “Palestine” the non-existent country never existed, the Arab Palestinian nationality is a modern invention of the early 60’s, The Arabs have been missing opportunities to form a second (after Jordan) Arab Palestinian state since 1947’s Partition Plan up to the latest peace offer agreement made by Israel that would have lead to the creation of a second Palestinian state. How does that compute with your nonsense of Israel not recognizing the Palestinians ? why the Oslo Accords ? why Gaza withdrawal ? why the numerous peace negotiations attempts ?

            “Mahmoud Abbas, just to pick one example, in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague” – oh I remember that, wasn’t it the one where he yelled one of his anti-semitic rants ? You are still having some trouble accepting the fact that the Palestinian own President is a Holocaust denier Anti-semite.

            “The question of Israel’s right to exist is like asking if the moon has a “right to exist”” – spoken truly like someone who has absolutely no idea what he’s talking about. As long as the Palestinian leadership doesn’t recognize Israel legitimate right to exist they will continue the “Jihad” and will refuse to negotiate in good faith.
            “As for Israel’s demand to be recognized as a “Jewish state”, that too is meaningless” – again, spoken like someone who has no idea what he’s talking about. The Palestinians refuse to accept Israel as the Jewish state because in their mind it’ll put a stop to their plan of flooding it with millions of “refugees” (apparently it’s a genetic trait for Palestinian) and turn Israel into another glorious Arab state.
            They say so openly themselves. Apparently you had no clue.

            “international law doesn’t recognize the concept” – Your own article is based on a lie: saying “Israel must be recognized as Jewish by religion”, nope. Wrong. Like I explained to you dozen of times Jews are a nationality not just a distinct religion.
            The writer mixes Israel’s law of return with Israel being the homeland of the Jewish people, a historic fact.

            “It is up to Israelis to decide what kind of state they want to live in — a secular democracy or a theocracy” – sorry but this is nonsense. Israel is not a theocracy and will never be a theocracy, you are a bit confused. Look at Gaza or at some Arab/Islamic states.
            The day Israel becomes a theocracy it will cease to exist. The Majority of Jews are secular and because of them the country exists.

            “Once borders are decided upon” – this is exactly the problem: the Palestinian leadership consider all of Israel as theirs, from the River to the Sea, they say so openly and very, very clearly. If you are hard of hearing just take a look at every symbol the Palestinians have of their “Palestine”. Why then do they show all of Israel as “Palestine” if you’re saying it’s not the case ? major printing error ?
            How delusional can someone be when the facts are shoved in his face over and over again ? this is truly remarkable. Never ceases to amaze me.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            How is it possible to discuss anything with a person who has no compunction about asserting that the plain fact that the Palestinians recognized Israel in 1993 is “a lie”? There is a cult-like repetition, a chanting of mantras. “The Palestinians are anti-Semites…the Palestinians refuse…Jewish State…genetic traits…their stated goals…they say so openly….” Like a crazy person at the airport. And an absolute refusal to see the Palestinians as human beings.

            Amidst the plethora of untruths and distortions and over-generalizations you manufacture with machine-like monotony, you reconfirm Bruce’s correct judgement about you: For you, Israeli Jews are human beings who say subtle ‘political things’ and can adapt and change and have complex motives, but Palestinian Arabs aren’t any of that, they’re all Jew-hating zombies programmed to kill. Unless they recognize Israel and seek peace, then they don’t mean it and it’s just false programming meant to deceive. And ironically it is you not they who come across as programmed. And racist.

            You failed the test, Ido. If you truly meant what you say, you would have fully endorsed the statement of Israeli military and ex-military:

            “Israel should prepare for a reality of two states for two people, most notably by declaring that it does not have claims of sovereignty over most of the occupied territories, and by planning and acting accordingly, including preparing for the relocation of settlers residing east of the separation barrier to Israel proper.”

            Which is the obvious way to defuse the very extremists about whom you incessantly complain and incessantly issue propaganda and incessantly generalize to all of the Palestinians, and the obvious way to empower the moderates that you can’t even bring yourself to admit exist.

            All you will do is issue a mealy mouthed “I support the two state solution.” When push comes to shove you reveal your true colors beneath the shovelfuls of propaganda you heap about. You failed the test. It is revealing.

            P.S.: Please also kindly be a big boy and stop the patronizing middle school schtick: “…how hard is it to grasp this simple concept …”

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            All of your simple-minded distortions, all of your cult-like propaganda, Ido Geller, are exposed and debunked by this piece by Uri Avnery. (Which Bruce posted over at the article “In memory of Razan al-Najjar.”)

            Uri Avnery’s Column
            Strong as Death
            02/06/18
            http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1527857702/

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            And by the way, the distinction between Jewish homeland and “Jewish state” seems to be lost on you. A measure of how dumbed down and rudimentary are the “discussions” you ensnare people in.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (Part 6): “And by the way, the distinction between Jewish homeland and “Jewish state” seems to be lost on you” – I only explained this 23 times. Again in the comments of this article.
            If you’re going to lie some more at least try something more imaginative. If you think it means a religious state, not Jewish nationality, you are out of your mind.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (Part 4, regarding Uri Avnery’s article): “All of your simple-minded distortions, all of your cult-like propaganda, Ido Geller, are exposed and debunked by this piece by Uri Avnery” – I nearly choked from laughing so hard. Thanks for the lighthearted humor.
            On the top of mountain denial of reality, on the highest cliff of delusional idiocy, the guy holding the flag is Uri Avnery. I have no doubt the guy means well, however his touch with reality is long gone.
            your “piece but Uri Avnery” not only doesn’t refute a single fact I pointed out, it proved that Avnery need psychiatric attention.
            He spent many happy hours with Hamas terrorist Mahmoud al-Zahar. I’m sure al-Zahar adores Avnery. It’s great to find such a glorious specimen of a ‘Useful Idiot’ who apparently is not aware what Hamas are and what are their ideology.
            How he speaks about arch-terrorist Jew murderer Yasser Arafat with such affection, the man most responsible for the Palestinians refusal to accept any kind of co-existence with Israel, the man who came up with the ‘Phased Plan’ for Israel’s elimination.
            The man who co-founded the terrorist organization Fatah for the disestablishment of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian state.
            I like how Avnery lies about Arafat as being ‘son of a Gazan family’ when he was actually born to an Egyptian family in Egypt and lied all his life that he wasn’t.
            He met “friendly attitude everywhere in the Gaza Strip”. I wouldn’t expect them to treat a delusional ‘Useful Idiot’ of his caliber any differently.
            “Everywhere we talked about peace and about the place of Gaza in the future State of Palestine” – odd that he neglect to mention that Israel and the Jews are not exactly part of the picture as the Palestinian leadership, both Fatah and Hamas, state very clearly.
            The man apparently doesn’t consider Hamas, an Islamic Jihadist genocidal terrorist organization who calls for the elimination of Israel and the slaughter of Jews, as a terrorist organization. Like I said I think he means well but he should be helped by medical professionals. He lost touch with reality.
            Avnery lies about the Gaza withdrawal, it wasn’t as he say “to cut all ties with the Gaza Strip”. He ignored that Hamas were elected by the people of Gaza, he ignored the inner conflict of Fatah with Hamas, the fact that the PLO did control Gaza before Hamas threw them out, he lies bout the origin of Hamas, he
            lies about why the blockade exist, he lies about the Mavi Marmara, ignoring for some reason how the people on board attacked the Israelis on it, he lies about Egypt’s own agenda regarding their border with Gaza, how they were also attacked at the border, he neglects to mention Egypt’s
            dealings with the Muslim Brotherhood had to do with them trying to turn Egypt into another Islamic theocracy by Morsi’s power grab which lead to mass protests.
            Some of his nonsense is hilarious: “Thus the Gaza Strip remains almost completely isolated, without friends. Except some idealists around the world” – yes, besides Iran, Qatar and Saudi Arabia who fund Hamas and send them weapons.
            The Iranian missiles fired on my Family did not materialize out of this air.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 5, regarding Uri Avnery’s article): “Gazan organizations carry out violent acts, which do no real damage to the State of Israel” – the guy is insane. terrorist attacks, bombed cities with thousands of missiles and rockets and burned fields are nothing at all, a mere nuisance.
            “And then the Palestinians discovered a new weapon: non-violent resistance” – oh yes, we saw what apparently passes for ‘non-violent resistance’ for Gaza. The guy should do comedy.
            “The world saw a picture of a little boy shot while in the arms of his father” – OK so either he does not know the boy was killed by the Palestinians in a crossfire as the physical evidence of the shooting was in all ways inconsistent with shots coming from the IDF outpost.
            or he’s deliberately lying. I would like to think he’s simply clueless.
            Well, Avnery is right about one thing, I’ll give him that: “There is no such tradition in the Muslim world of non-violent resistance”.
            “the demonstrators on the Gaza border are now finding this power in their hearts” – hilarious. Is he demented or he simply not aware what is actually going on at the border ? directed by his “great friends” the genocidal Jihadist terrorists Hamas ?
            “hundred mortar shells into Israel without causing any real damage” – sure, people ran to their bomb shelters for the 15 seconds the have to do so. So he is troubled that there were no dead Jews ?
            “Hamas has offered a Hudna” – Apparently Avnery doesn’t know what ‘Hudna’ means in the Islamic culture. He should read about the Hudaibiya treaty. If he thinks it’ll end any differently than the previous “Hudna” he’s more delusional than I thought.
            He mentions Muslims respecting ‘Hudna’ during the crusades without understanding the meaning and the reason. The treaty is kept as long as the Muslims are not in a position of power to wage war.
            “A Hudna is a sacred armistice, which no Muslim is allowed to break” – no it isn’t Mr. Avnery, you have no clue. It’s the exact opposite as dictated by Islamic tradition from the days of Muhammed.
            He concluded with “MY HEART is with the people of Gaza”, I don’t doubt it, so is mine. What Hamas is doing is destroying them. Too bad Mr. Avnery’s mind is long gone.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, the site is posting my responses out of order so if it’s OK with you I’ll number them:
            (Part 1) : The Palestinians, both factions, do not recognize the legitimate existence of Israel. I linked detailed proof in the Facebook comments section. Proof you of course ignored again.
            How is it possible to discuss this with someone who is refusing to accept this fact when the Palestinians themselves openly and very clearly say it to his face ?
            And here we are again:
            Ben: “The Palestinians recognize the legitimate existence of Israel”.
            Palestinians: “no we don’t. We don’t recognize the legitimate existence of Israel and never will”.

            You mention 1993, I assume you mean the Oslo Accords, as if I needed more proof you don’t know what you’re talking about.
            Arafat is on record admitting the Oslo Accords were a deceit. When asked in an interview why he signed the agreement with Israel he mentioned Muhammed’s Hudaibiya treaty with the Quraish tribe.
            A non-Muslim outsider will not know what he’s talking about. It’s a strategic trick to fool the enemy, see Arafat’s ‘Phased Plan’. Arafat admitting the Oslo process has always been a strategic means not to a two-state solution, Israel and a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza but to the substitution of a Palestinian state for the state of Israel.
            See proof for both facts I mentioned here with an explanation of what the Phased Plan is in the Facebook comments section’s new post. I’m assuming you had no idea and you’re not being purposefully deceitful.

            Do you understand ? saying “the Palestinians accept the legitimacy of Israel” is a lie, the Palestinians themselves clearly say so themselves and you still cling to your nonsense. This is amazing.

            “There is a cult-like repetition, a chanting of mantras” – I repeat: of course I’m repeating myself because the facts remain the same, the Palestinian leadership see all of Israel as theirs, they openly call for the elimination of Israel and for the murder of Jews, they openly say they don’t consider Israel as legitimate and you again and again refuse to accept reality because it doesn’t match your delusional point of view even though it has no relation to what actually happens in reality. This is the beauty about facts, no matter how much you pathetically try to deny them, they remain the same.
            “The Palestinians are anti-Semites” – and you lie again, I’ll add it to the pile. I specifically said Abbas is an anti-semite Holocaust denier and provided proof. Hamas are as well and I provided proof, also how they call for the wholesale murder of Jews. Their anti-semitism is an integral part of their religious doctrine, read their charter
            it’s right there, they literally quote the Protocols of the Elders of Zion
            You are yet to refute a single fact I stated. Saying “no it isn’t!” is not refuting, it’s a childish temper tantrum.
            “refusal to see the Palestinians as human beings” – what’s with this ridiculous lie again ? stating a fact that the Palestinian leadership see all of Israel as theirs, how they call for the elimination of Israel and the murder of Jews with specific proof (which you ignore releatedly) is “refusing to see them as human beings” ?
            is your definition of “human being” include the destruction of Israel and genocide of Jews ? please clear this up because this is literally insane.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “Amidst the plethora of untruths and distortions” – name them. Point it out, prove it. Go ahead. Like I proved in detail your huge amount of lies, historic fabrications and embarrassing mistakes with cited proof.
            “For you, Israeli Jews are human beings who say subtle ‘political things’ and can adapt and change and have complex motives, but Palestinian Arabs aren’t any of that” – why are you lying about this again when I refuted this nonsense in the answer above ?

            Why do you ignore it ? I repeat: you mean the things they said and acted upon from the moment their various organizations were created is “politics” ? their declared objectives from day 1 ? Hamas’ stated goals based on their Islamic ideology is not their actual goal ?
            Oh yes, the Palestinian terrorists do act like “politicians”, when they lie to the West for the ‘Useful Idiots’ while ensuring their people, in Arabic, that their goal still remains the same, the elimination of Israel and the murder of Jews.
            The proof is right there in the Facebook comments section, a PLO top executive saying exactly that, the Hamas charter modification that never were, explained in detail. Are you going to shut your eyes and ears again ? lie some more ?
            So every symbol any Palestinian terrorist group have, showing the entire country of Israel as theirs, draped by the Palestinian flag, is a printing error ? The fact that you try to excuse the openly declared goals of the Palestinian terrorist organizations, goals which they act upon since day one, as “politics” goes beyond denial and into ‘Useful Idiot’ territory.

            You hilariously talk about “adapt and change, complex motives”, the Palestinian leadership hasn’t changed their declared objectives from day one, the elimination of Israel and the murder of Jews, how they see all of Israel as theirs. All of this is proven in detail in the Facebook comments, are you going to ignore it again ?
            “they’re all Jew-hating zombies, programmed to kill” – and another lie to the pile. This is beyond rediculous. Show me please where I said all the Palestinians are anything of the sort.
            “Unless they recognize Israel and seek peace, then they don’t mean it” – what ? so unless they recognize the legitimate existence of Israel and are willing to live in peace along Israel it doesn’t mean they don’t ? are you drunk ?
            Look, this is very simple, the Palestinian leadership factions say so themselves very, very clearly, this didn’t change since their various terrorist organizations were established: to them Israel has no right to exist, they see all of Israel as theirs, Israel is an illegitimate country that should be eliminated and a new “Palestine” should be “cleansed” of Jews.
            You find the fact that I find this detrimental to peace and co-existence of a second Palestinian state with Israel strange ? are you nuts ?

            “And ironically it is you not they who come across as programmed. And racist” – I don’t get it. I posted the Palestinian leaders themselves saying exactly what I claimed they say, including their anti-semitic rants. Do you blick your eyes when you scroll over them so you don’t see them ?
            how do you rationalize this since the proof is right in front of your face ? more embarrassingly hilarious excuses like “it’s all politics” when the opposite is actually the case as I proved over and over again ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 3) : “You failed the test, Ido” – you failed again to address the facts I presented proving everything I said. You lied repeatedly as I pointed out in detail, again. You refuse to grasp simple facts when they are presented to you over and over again. You again and again show that you have absolutely no idea about the groups who are defending, you literally
            contradict what they themselves say and do which I find hilarious. I don’t know if it’s denial, stupidity, deceit or a combination of all 3 and honestly I don’t care. I just find this very entertaining.

            “Israel should prepare for a reality of two states for two people” – Israel already did, several times. The Palestinian leadership, as I proved in detail a dozen times, doesn’t share the sentiment.
            “Which is the obvious way to defuse the very extremists” – The elected leaders of the Palestinians, both factions, are not some marginalized extremist fringe as you oh so very much like them to be, quite the opposite.

            “..issue propaganda” – how twisted and stupid can someone be when they call proven facts based on statements and actions made by the very people in question “propaganda” ?
            “and incessantly generalize to all of the Palestinians” – I lost count how many times you lied about me on this. I repeat: I specifically talk about the Palestinian leadership, not all the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians.
            I have no idea why you continue to lie about this but I don’t mind pointing it out again and again.

            ” and the obvious way to empower the moderates that you can’t even bring yourself to admit exist” – Oh I have no doubt they exist, I talked to them. Sadly they don’t lead the Palestinians and have zero chance of doing so, they are not backed by the various Arab/Islamic nations who support the Palestinian terrorist organizations that lead the Palestinians.
            Have you ever seen an anti-Hamas demonstration in Gaza ? are you even aware what the murderous terrorists you are defending are capable of doing ?

            “Please also kindly be a big boy and stop the patronizing middle school schtick” – I present simple facts backed by simple to read and understand evidence. You fail repeatedly to grasp it. A lobotomized chimp would have grasped it by now.
            I’m not sure if it’s denial, stupidity or both. Be an adult and face the uncomfortable reality. Stop ignoring the huge amount of evidence, literally consisting of the people you are attempting to defend shouting it to your face repeatedly.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            An impenetrable thicket of tedious distortions and untruths. In six verbose parts! To wade into this with a machete would take hours. I’m done, kid. One can only take so much nonsense.

            (And so much cult-think—when you know the person on the other end is expending all his energies in defending his hermetically sealed assemblage of untruths and quarter-truths and 64th-truths masquerading as airtight, compleat “facts” he won’t ever relinquish. And he really, really believes them! Because he read it in Arutz Sheva! Proof I tell you! And expects we should have to go back and prove the world is not flat again. Like an impertinent, rude 4th grade kid importuning his science teacher. “I offered proof, proof I tell you! The world is flat! Prove it isn’t! Name one thing I said which isn’t true!” And he’d love to engage you in an endless, useless go-around where the real point gets lost, just as the Israelis do when they pretend to “negotiate.” “Why won’t you ‘negotiate’?! We want to ‘negotiate’!)

            Yup, Bruce is right about you. I’m pleased as punch to leave the exchange as it stands. Quod erat….

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “An impenetrable thicket of tedious distortions.. untruths” – precisely the opposite, in great detail. Backed by lots of evidence you are yet to even touch once.
            Including detailed list of where you lied repeatedly, where you had no clue what you were talking about and where you again ignored the uncomfortable reality, namely the people you are defending yelling what I claim they say to your face.
            I repeat: saying “no you didn’t! untruths!” is not refuting the facts I’m presenting backed by cited evidence, it’s a childish temper tantrum.
            “six verbose parts” – the amount of nonsense, lies, denial of reality and the evidence I provided repeatedly you posted was a lot of material to work with and I addressed every part. It was very entertaining as usual.
            “One can only take so much nonsense” – and as usual you are not able to refute a single fact I posted, backed by evidence of literally the people you claim never said or did what I claimed they did, saying and doing. Truly remarkable.
            I ask again: is the evidence fake/wrong ? are those actors pretending to be PLO leaders ? are those actors pretending to be Hamas ? you still refuse to touch the evidence because doing so will force you to face the uncomfortable reality about the Palestinians.
            “Because he read it in Arutz Sheva” – point to the evidence you think is inaccurate, go ahead. Why is this so difficult for you ?
            “we should have to go back and prove the world is not flat again” – this is beyond ridiculous, the evidence is right there, of the Palestinians themselves saying what I claimed they said to your face, evidence regarding Arafat, Fatah, Hamas, everything I said and you think saying “no it isn’t!” somehow refutes this. Amazing. Really it is.
            I ask again: point to any of the facts I presented and refute it. Go ahead.
            “The world is flat!” – what’s hilarious about your nonsense here is that this is exactly what you are saying, you are literally denying reality and non other than the Palestinians themselves are shouting the truth to your face, again and again but you choose to ignore it.
            “Israelis pretend to negotiate” – hilarious, I provided proof of Arafat doing exactly that in the Facebook comments section which you refuse to touch. And you are yet not able to grasp how the Palestinians leadership refusal to accept the legitimate existence of Israel, their view of all Israel as
            their “Palestine” and the fact that the say Jews should be killed or “cleansed” is detrimental to a negotiation process.
            “Yup, Bruce is right about you” – third time: Bruce refused to address a single fact I stated and tried to change the subject when I mentioned some facts apparently not to his liking. The posts are right there, are you in denial about this as well ?

            The cognitive dissonance must be excruciating, knowing that I’m right but still clinging to your lying nonsense.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            As I think I told you, I’m done.
            But before I go…let me point out if I may that all you ever really do is run around here calling +972 Magazine writers (and me) “delusional.” And “why is this so difficult for you to understand?” And “hilarious.” And “I guess you mean [a sneaky distortion of what the writer means].” And “I guess you missed [the umpteenth ripped-out-of-context or craftily distorted or simply made up Arutz Sheva Internet factoid].”
            These are people who have a hard won, on-the-ground knowledge and authority and thoughtfulness. They’re serious people. Just like Breaking the Silence. IMO you’re totally out of your league. I expect you’ll beg to differ so let’s just agree to disagree.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            You for some reason neglect to mention that I prove in great detail why they are delusional, backed by evidence. Just like I prove you are a liar, clueless and have no idea what you’re talking about, in detail backed by evidence you repeatedly ignore.
            Everything I said, every point I’ve made, I proved it in great detail. I linked the evidence in the Facebook comments section, you know, the things you ignored.
            I question your inability to grasp simple facts because they are simple facts and the evidence corroborating them is very, very clear. Not only that, a lot of it is said by the same people you claim never said it. You of course ignore this.
            “Just like Breaking the Silence” – I proved to you in detail the lies and misinformation they are involved with. As I recall you had a very difficult time accepting this fact even when faced with a video of their own spokesperson lying on camera.
            “I expect you’ll beg to differ so let’s just agree to disagree” – I agree that based on the amount of evidence clearly detailed in my posts and the detailed explanations I’ve made proving your ignorance, lies, cluelessness, denial of reality and inability to grasp simple facts, especially when the evidence themselves (PLO/Hamas leaders) are yelling it to your face, that you are clueless, a liar, in a deep state of denial and you have no idea what you’re talking about.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “As I recall you had a very difficult time accepting this fact even when faced with a video of their own spokesperson lying on camera.”

            An Ido classic. You tell him he wantonly reproduces distortions and lies out of Arutz Sheva and what does Ido do? Ido complies by serving up a classic that no one but the most brainwashed does not recognize as abject, sneaky slander of Breaking the Silence. You can’t make this stuff up.

            I’m grateful to you Ido. No one will bother to wade through the piles of disinformation you heap around us but everyone can see in this one pithy example what dishonest place you are coming from. Nice. You were succinct for once!

            Folks, skip the miles and miles of dross above you and cut to the chase right here. Q. E. D.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, this is Hilarious. I literally posted pages of pages proving you’re a clueless liar who doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about backed by evidence you are yet to even address, and when I point out how I posted a video of the guy lying on camera (which I posted again with a detailed explanation what are the problems with ‘Breaking the Silence’ is in the Facebook comments section above) it’s a lie because you say so, the hell with stuff like ‘truth’, ‘evidence’ and ‘reality’.
            “piles of disinformation you heap around” – again, 432th time: show me where, prove me wrong, refute the facts I’m posting, address the evidence I linked. Why is this so difficult for you ? saying “no you didn’t!” exhibits the mentality of a child. A not very bright one at that.
            “but everyone can see in this one pithy example” – what a lame attempt to sideline the huge pile of posts above showing how I prove you wrong in detail over and over again. How I show exactly how you are a clueless ‘Useful Idiot’. Not to mention how I point out where you repeatedly lie, especially about me.
            Like I said, the video of “this one pithy example” is posted again in the Facebook section. Are you going to ignore it again like you ignored the rest of the evidence proving you wrong ?
            “Folks, skip the miles and miles of dross above you and cut to the chase right here” – this is comedy gold: “Yes folks, ignore the pile of huge evidence showing I’m a clueless liar who was proven wrong in great detail backed by evidence over and over again in the post above”.
            Sure, they can cut to the chase right here, because I just posted it again in the Facebook comments section. Enjoy.
            The ‘Q. E. D.’ bit is really funny, adds another layer to the hilarity.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Again, Ido Geller, your concepts of evidence and proof are most risible. All of this remarkably sleazy disinformation and persecution by Israeli Justice Minister Ayalet Shaked and co-conspirators has been exposed. Based on, among other things, purposefully interviewing the wrong Palestinian and refusing to admit it! Why do we have to keep repeating this? Shameless! The occupation is organized crime. Gangsters! ==>

            By +972 Blog |Published March 11, 2018
            The Right doesn’t want you to know about the violence of occupation
            What disturbs the Right is not the occupation, but those who attempt to expose the violence that maintaining military rule over a civilian population requires.
            By Frima (Merphie) Bubis
            ————————–

            You failed the test! Noch einmal!

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “Thousands of videos won’t change the fact – Breaking the Silence is an organization that slanders IDF soldiers around the world and is based on the distortion of facts and lies.”

            Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked made this Kafkaeqsue remark after video documentation contradicted the prosecutor’s version of events in the show trial of Breaking the Silence spokesperson Dean Issacharoff. This material, which revealed that the government had interrogated the wrong Palestinian in an intentional attempt to portray Issacharoff as a liar, led to the opening of a new case. But according to Shaked, new evidence won’t change her conclusion.
            https://972mag.com/the-right-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about-the-violence-of-occupation/133722/

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            The details of Issacharoff’s case are as absurd as the politics that undergird them. Shortly after the investigation was closed, two important developments came to light. First, Rueben Silberstone, a British lone soldier who served as a signal-operator in Issacharoff’s unit and witnessed the event, released a video online in which he confirmed Issacharoff’s account of what happened in Hebron. Silberstone was never questioned as part of the investigation.

            Second, Issacharoff was never asked if the Palestinian who was questioned during the investigation was indeed the Palestinian he beat and arrested in Hebron. The state prosecutor claimed that it had questioned a man named Hassan Jolani, who contradicted the account Issacharoff gave. But Issacharoff was never shown a picture of Jolani, nor Jolani of Issacharoff. “If they had even asked me to identify the Palestinian at any stage of the investigation, I would have told them that this is not the person, and this is not the event,” Issacharoff stated in a video released online. “If they had checked this, would they still be calling me a liar?”

            Minister of Justice Ayelet Shaked initiated the investigation with the explicit goal of discrediting Breaking the Silence — and the mainstream Israeli media has been more than happy to assist her. In true tabloid fashion, Yedioth Ahronoth, the country’s best-selling newspaper, ran the headline, “The case against Breaking the Silence spokesman closed: his claim that he attacked a Palestinian — false.” During a televised debate on Channel 2, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Tzipi Hotoveli, back from her rocky tour of U.S. college campuses, announced to Gvaryahu, “You are all traitors.”

            https://972mag.com/you-are-all-traitors-the-political-persecution-of-breaking-the-silence/130809/

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            And not just the wrong Palestinian! The wrong commander!

            “The footage shows that a deputy company commander who has backed Issacharoff’s story was indeed present. But according to sources in Breaking the Silence, none of the soldiers in the company who denied that an assault occurred and claimed that Issacharoff invented the story can be seen in the clip. Moreover, the sources said, the footage shows that the company commander police questioned, who also denied Issacharoff’s story, is a different company commander than the one who was present at the scene.”
            https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-breaking-the-silence-releases-video-on-controversial-incident-1.5467283

            ———-

            Give it up, Ido. You’re aiding and abetting crooks. And you wouldn’t want to do that, now would you?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Give it up, Ido. You’re aiding and abetting crooks. And you wouldn’t want to do that, now would you?” says the guy lying for genocidal Jihadist terrorists like Hamas or terrorists like Fatah who openly and very clearly say that Israel should be eliminated and Jews should be killed, that they don’t consider Israel as a legitimate country, they see all of Israel as theirs, among all the many other details about them in the many posts above. You know, where I proved in detail how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about, who refuses to even address the evidence proving he’s clueless, like you now trying very hard to ignore the fact that there’s video evidence of the founder of ‘Breaking the Silence’ lying on camera.
            Why are you again posting articles behind a paywall ? are you slow ? how many times do I need to mention this before you get it ?
            Ben, there are videos of the company soldiers now in the Facebook comments, enjoy. And the commander interviewed in the investigation was Issacharoff’s own company commander at the time of the alleged assault, the one who was issuing the orders for the unit.
            You of course ignored all the links I posted about this but that’s a given by now.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            What a pathetic effort to divert attention from the huge amount of posts above showing in great detail how you are a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about.
            Issacharoff’s case didn’t reach trial because the investigation, based on evidence, showed that he’s a liar, just like you.
            “First, Rueben Silberstone, a British lone soldier” – I already discussed this with you in great detail, proving this is nonsense. So he just appeared when the investigation was over ? when what he’s saying is contradicted by all the other witnesses including the so called victim ?
            “Issacharoff was never asked” – the account was corroborated by the investigators based on evidence Issacharoff provided. The case was thrown when he was found to be a liar.
            “Minister of Justice Ayelet Shaked initiated the investigation with the explicit goal of discrediting Breaking the Silence” – there is no need to, their own founder is on video lying, literally spreading Nazi-style blood libel. You know, the video you have ignored so far 3 times, not including the many times you ignored it when we first discussed this. Why is that ?
            Bringing an opinion piece from this site, a biased pro-Palestinian news blog that sometimes borders on science fiction from an alternate reality, is a nice touch. How many times are you going to ignore the video where the founder of ‘Breaking the Silence’ is lying on camera ? are you going to change the subject again to divert attention from the evidence’s existence ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            What a pathetic effort to divert attention from the huge amount of posts above showing in great detail how you are a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about.
            Issacharoff’s case didn’t reach trial because the investigation, based on evidence, showed that he’s a liar, just like you.
            “First, Rueben Silberstone, a British lone soldier” – I already discussed this with you in great detail, proving this is nonsense. So he just appeared when the investigation was over ? when what he’s saying is contradicted by all the other witnesses ?
            “Issacharoff was never asked” – the account was corroborated by the investigators based on evidence Issacharoff provided. The case was thrown when he was found to be a liar.
            “Minister of Justice Ayelet Shaked initiated the investigation with the explicit goal of discrediting Breaking the Silence” – there is no need to, their own founder is on video lying, literally spreading Nazi-style blood libel. You know, the video you have ignored so quite a few times, not including the many times you ignored it when we first discussed this. Why is that ?
            How many times are you going to ignore the video where the founder of ‘Breaking the Silence’ is lying on camera ? are you going to change the subject again to divert attention from the evidence’s existence ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, the proof and evidence is all over the comments section of this article, the links with cited evidence are in the Facebook section.
            Trying so hard to ignore they exist is very amusing. So bringing up the ‘Breaking the Silence’ topic to pathetically attempt to divert attention from the posts above where I show how you are a clueless liar in great detail backfired. Oh well. Nice effort.
            “All of this remarkably sleazy disinformation” – cited fact is not disinformation. A video of the founder of ‘Breaking the Silence’ lying (which you ignored of course) is not disinformation. Why on earth are you even trying when the evidence is right there in the Facebook comments section ?
            “Based on, among other things, purposefully interviewing the wrong Palestinian and refusing to admit it” – nope, they didn’t even proceed to trial because the spokesperson was lying based on evidence given to court, you ignore this just like you ignore the video of the founder lying on camera. I already explained this in detail in the comments section when we discussed this in great detail. You think this pathetic attempt will somehow make the huge amount of proof that you are a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about in the many posts above vanish ? who the people you’re defending literally contradict you themselves ? all of this will go away ? are you a child ?
            “You failed the test! Noch einmal!” – not according to the huge pile of posts above showing in great detail how you are a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about, backed with a huge pile of evidence. Repeating this won’t somehow make it real.
            You seem to have a very hard time coming to term with reality, when you are faced with the fact that you are very, very wrong. Not only that but the people you are trying to defend are contradicting you themselves. This is amazing to me. You literally deny reality and attempt to substitute it with your own lying clueless nonsense.
            I’m actually somewhat impressed by your effort. Bringing in the ‘Breaking the Silence’ bit shows some imagination, never mind that it backfired, see the evidence in the Facebook section with detailed explanation why ‘Breaking the Silence’ are a farce.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Sure, Ido Suuuuure. LoL. You never change.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Saying “LOL” won’t make the video of the founder of ‘Breaking the Silence’ lying on camera disappear, just like it won’t make the many posts above where I show your lies and ignorance in great detail backed by evidence you are yet to even touch, disappear. Must be painful to see links where the people you are defending blatantly contradict you themselves.
            “You never change” – you know what never changes ? the huge amount of posts above, detailing very specifically how you are clueless, a liar, a biased ‘Useful Idiot’ who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. No matter how much you’ll try to change the subject or post more “oh you!” childish idiocy.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Since the founder of Breaking the Silence did not lie on camera, this is a meaningless reply.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Um, the link for the video is right there, Yehuda Shaul is lying about Jews poisoning wells. Right there in the Facebook comments section. Seriously ? you’re lying about this as well ?
            Later the Palestinian President himself used this lie in one of his anti-semitic rants but even he realized this lie was going a bit too far and he later apologized.
            Now as we see in all the many posts above where I show how you are a clueless liar who doesn’t know what he’s talking about in great detail, you seem to have a pathological problem of grasping reality when it contradict your nonsense but this is beyond ridiculous, the link is right there.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “Um, the link for the video is right there, Yehuda Shaul is lying about Jews poisoning wells”

            Oh? Is that right, Ido Geller?

            Two questions for you.

            1. I realize that your aim, and the settlers’ aim, and Ad Kan’s aim, and Ayalet Shaked’s aim is to make as much scandalous, absurd, fake anti-Semitizing hay out of this as possible, yelling the words “blood libel” as much as possible, to try to smear an excellent Jewish human being, Yehuda Shaul, because you can’t deny the truth of what Breaking the Silence testimonies actually bring to light, but here’s the question:

            Where is the video of Yehuda Shaul saying “Jews poison wells”?

            I’ll spare you the trouble. You can’t show me that video because that video does not exist. Because Yehuda Shaul never has said “Jews poison wells.”

            2. IF Yehuda Shaul somewhere once said that some Israeli settlers somewhere poisoned a Palestinian village’s well, why would that be a lie?

            I already answered Question number 1. Please answer Question number 2.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            ?
            Did you hit your head or something ? the video is embedded in the link I posted in the Facebook comments section, the one where I wrote “The founder of ‘Breaking the Silence’, Yehuda Shaul, lying on camera. Literally spreading Nazi-style blood libel”.
            I don’t get it. Do you bang your head on the screen each time you pass over the links I post ?
            “IF Yehuda Shaul somewhere once said that some Israeli settlers somewhere poisoned a Palestinian village’s well” – dude, the video is right there. The man himself lying in front of the camera. Are you feeling well ?
            “why would that be a lie?” – mainly because it’s completely false. When asked about this lie they never backed it up by anything. You think this is out of character for the people of ‘Breaking the Silence’ ? did you skip the other link explaining why they are a farce ? the other one literally pointing how much they lie ? Like I said, the same lie was repeated by the Palestinian President himself and he later apologized realizing his lying was too absurd.
            I’ll add the link directly after this post, hopefully it won’t take 3 days for it to appear.

            Are you going to attempt to change the subject again ? tell “the folks” to ignore the many posts above showing how you are a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about in great detail backed by evidence that you are yet to touch ? that was hilarious, comedy gold.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Now that is most interesting, Ido. Most interesting. Your whole deeply problematic style is laid out here, exposed.

            You said, and I quote, “the link for the video is right there, Yehuda Shaul is lying about Jews poisoning wells.”

            But the video does not show Yehuda Shaul saying that “Jews poison wells.”

            Yehuha Shaul appears to have said that some settlers poisoned a Palestinian village’s well. He did not say “Jews poison wells.”

            So…it is, in fact, you, Ido Geller, who told a lie, isn’t it? It is you who confidently pronounced that you had “evidence” and proof (proof I tell you! Right there on the Internet! A video!) that Yehuda Shaul said “Jews poison wells.” That is a lie about Yehuda Shaul. And you perpetrated it. Eagerly. With relish. And it is emblematic of ALL your arguments in these pages, Ido Geller: “facts” that aren’t facts, “evidence” that is not evidence, “proof” that is not proof.

            More to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Then you, Ido Geller, go on to say: “why would that be a lie? – mainly because it’s completely false.”

            But in fact it is not completely false:

            Poisoning the Village Wells
            Amira Hass 12.10.2004
            https://www.haaretz.com/1.4715718
            (No paywall! Can be read even by those who refuse to pay for their country’s only serious mainstream newspaper!)

            If Yehuda Shaul once remarked that settlers sometimes poison wells, sadly, that is not a lie, no matter how much sick, twisted, anti-Semitizing “blood-libel” hay you want eagerly to make of it. No matter how many spurious “gotcha!” games Ad Kan plays, all because they just can’t bring themselves to admit the truth of Breaking the Silence testimonies. The settlers in fact have been reported to poison and sabotage wells, to throw dead animals and garbage and used diapers in them or stuff these things in water pipes. Show us proof that Amira Hass is not reporting the truth here.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            I hope this is a true turning point for you, Ido. Your dishonest modus operandi dissected and explained to you, I hope you can find the courage to turn over a new leaf and admit that you should change your approach. (Actually, you and I both know you won’t change and that your likely response will be something like “Hilarious! Did you hit your head with a really big old hammer this time Ben?!” But there it is. The truth is out there.)

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben: “I hope this is a true turning point for you, Ido. Your dishonest modus operandi dissected and explained to you” – I nearly choked from laughing so hard. There are literally pages of pages of posts above showing how you are clueless, a liar, how you have no idea what you’re talking about, in great detail backed by actual proof.
            This is hysterical.. how many times have I pointed out you lied in the posts above ? literally quoting you lying ? how many times have I proved you have no idea what you’re talking about when the people you’re defending literally contradict you themselves ? how many times have I proved you’re clueless ? backed by evidence ?
            Your pathetic attempt at deflection here is mesmerizing in its stupidity. You actually thought that by changing the subject and asking “the folks” to ignore the huge amount of posts above, somehow it’ll make them and their facts all go away. This is literally infantile.

            “The truth is out there” – well, we do agree on something after all. The truth is indeed out there, all laid out in great detail ,post after post, where I prove in great detail how you are a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben: “But in fact it is not completely false” – no, it’s completely false, he lied and had no evidence to back it up, an article from almost 15 years ago about pollution from a sewage system and pipes with actual evidence does not magically turn his lies to reality.
            “If Yehuda Shaul once remarked that settlers sometimes poison wells, sadly, that is not a lie” – that’s not what he said and you know it. You’re lying again. He said, on camera, that Jews poisoned the entire water systems of that specific village. When his organization was asked to back it up by evidence they couldn’t and didn’t.
            “that is not a lie” – repeating this won’t somehow make his lies real, just like it won’t make ‘Breaking the Silence’ any less of a farce.
            I repeat: the Palestinian President himself repeated this lie and he later apologized, realizing his lying was going too far. You repeatedly ignored this fact for some reason. Like Shaul he had zero evidence.
            “it the truth of Breaking the Silence testimonies” – I linked 2 articles explaining in detail how their organization is a farce with examples of their lies. You are yet to address this. 6 times or so I believe.

            “Show us proof that Amira Hass is not reporting the truth here.” – her case is from a decade and a half ago. You do understand how this works right ? someone makes a statement, this someone backs it up with evidence. I made claims that you are clueless, a liar and you have no idea what you’re talking about and I backed it up by proof, very clearly so. Ask Yehuda Shaul to provide proof, he made the claim.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, this is great: never mind the guy is lying on camera, never mind he’s spewing literally Nazi style blood libel, let’s try to focus on a technicality because I said ‘wells’ even though the guy is on camera saying ‘all the water systems of the village’ not a single well, all the water systems.
            So not only are you lying again, very clearly so, you have a listening comprehension problem.
            Would you like me to quote all the posts above where you lied ? had no idea what you were talking about ? made absolutely clear that you have very little idea about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ? there is a lot of material, I could crash this poor site’s servers.
            “proof I tell you! Right there on the Internet! A video!” – sure, a video of the guy himself lying on camera is not proof, it’s just “a video”. Hilarious.
            “That is a lie about Yehuda Shaul. And you perpetrated it.” – um, the guy is on record saying Jews poisoned the entire water systems of the village, not “well” or “wells”, the entire water systems of the village.
            “Eagerly. With relish” – This is hilarious, I just caught you with your pants down again, like in the huge pile of posts above showing that you a are clueless, have no idea what you’re talking about and how many times have I caught you lying ? about me or otherwise ? I lost count. It’s all there, in great detail.
            Are you going to ask “the folks” to ignore it ? that was the funniest thing I’ve read from you so far, and that means a lot.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (edited to prevent a delay of hours) : This is great, never mind the guy is lying on camera, let’s try to focus on a technicality because I said ‘wells’ even though the guy is on camera saying ‘all the water systems of the village’ not a single well, all the water systems.
            So not only are you lying again, very clearly so, you have a listening comprehension problem.
            Would you like me to quote all the posts above where you lied ? had no idea what you were talking about ? made absolutely clear that you have very little idea about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ? there is a lot of material.
            “proof I tell you! Right there on the Internet! A video!” – sure, a video of the guy himself lying on camera is not proof, it’s just “a video”. Hilarious.
            “That is a lie about Yehuda Shaul. And you perpetrated it.” – um, the guy is on record saying Jews poisoned the entire water systems of the village, not “well” or “wells”, the entire water systems of the village.
            “Eagerly. With relish” – This is hilarious, I just caught you “paraphrasing” again, like in the huge pile of posts above showing that you a are clueless, have no idea what you’re talking about and how many times have I caught you lying ? about me or otherwise ? I lost count. It’s all there, in great detail.
            Are you going to ask “the folks” to ignore it ? that was the funniest thing I’ve read from you so far, and that means a lot.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You, a strikingly promiscuous, even incontinent user of the epithet “liar” —

            remember the technique we dissected: create a “fact” that is not a fact, based on “evidence” that is not evidence, and we won’t even talk about your serial abuse of the word “proof”–and then when someone disagrees, presto, that person is a “liar”—nice

            — you then, having thereby reduced the word “liar” to meaninglessness, got caught out actually and in fact prevaricating about “Jews poison wells” and now you’re backtracking and emitting smoke screens here. I’d be shocked if you behaved otherwise. Shaul’s statement was about specific settlers and a village, he did not make some blanket statement that “Jews poison wells.” That was your eager, calculatedly anti-Semitizing lie about Yehuda Shaul, an Orthodox Jew. And now you’re backtracking.

            I just gotta understand this better. Every time you hear or read the word “Israeli” or “settler” in a negative, non-occupation-supporting context, do you have a mysterious aphasia wherein you automatically, by reflex, substitute the word “Jew” for “Israeli” or “settler” and then this then in turn triggers by some internal circuit a reflex ejaculation of the words “blood libel!”? Just curious. It seems like a medical mystery.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, you’re lying about lying again ? there are quite a few examples in the posts above where I literally quote you lying and prove it. I don’t get it. You think lying about this fact will somehow make all those examples disappear ?
            “remember the technique we dissected: create a “fact” that is not a fact” – which one ? please by all means point to it.
            “based on “evidence” that is not evidence” – which one ?
            “and we won’t even talk about your serial abuse of the word proof” – you mean the people you claim never said anything are literally and very clearly saying it to your face ? how difficult must it be to see how things you thought were real are actually not, as directly stated by the people you claim never said it themselves.
            The cognitive dissonance must be uncomfortable.
            “and then when someone disagrees, presto, that person is a “liar”: – nope, I literally quote you lying and show how it’s a lie, multiple times in the posts above. You are now lying about lying. Very meta of you.
            “prevaricating about “Jews poison wells” and now you’re backtracking and emitting smoke screens here” – hilarious, I just proved again you had no idea what you were talking about, so pointing it out is ‘backtracking’ ? showing how you had no idea he was talking about the entire water systems is “emitting amokescreen” ? this is great stuff, I like it. Comedy gold.

            “Shaul’s statement was about specific settlers and a village, he did not make some blanket statement that “Jews poison wells.” – nice deflection attempt, you are still terrible at it but at least you’re trying. This is what you said:
            “If Yehuda Shaul once remarked that settlers sometimes poison wells” – and I pointed out that he was very specific, proving you were “paraphrasing” again.
            “he did not make some blanket statement that “Jews poison wells” – no, you did. See the previous sentence. That was my point.
            “that was your eager, calculatedly anti-Semitizing lie about Yehuda Shaul” – nice attempt at the “no, you!” technique. The man lied on camera with zero proof, accept it.
            “an Orthodox Jew” – and this is as relevant as the fact that he was wearing pants. Some of the best ‘Useful Idiots’ are Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews.
            “And now you’re backtracking.” – nope, you’re making stuff up again, hilariously so.
            “do you have a mysterious aphasia wherein you automatically, by reflex, substitute the word “Jew” for “Israeli” or “settler”” – no because unlike you (as I proved in great detail in another article which I’m sure you recall) I know the difference between the words.
            “blood libel” – so you are not aware of the history of the ‘poison well’ blood libel. What a shock. Why are you still ignoring the fact that the anti-semite Holocaust denier Palestinian President himself repeated it and later apologized when he realized he was going too far ? Just like you are not aware of all the facts I explained in great detail in the posts above showing very clearly how you are a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about.
            Just like you ignore the people you’re defending literally contradict your nonsense to your face. Guess what ? ignoring it won’t somehow make it all go away.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Ahem. If you had an honest case to make you would not bury it like you just did in clouds of obfuscation.

            Did or did not Yehuda Shaul make the blanket statement about Jews that “Jews poison wells.” It is a yes or no question. The answer, since you won’t provide it, is “no.”

            Therefore, you did not tell the truth. Around here we call that “lying.” You might call it “being patriotic” or “defending Israel because it is permitted to lie and slander and distort all sorts of things for Greater Israel” or god knows what but we call it lying. And in this case it was a particular species of deceit called anti-Semitizing. And it is also called slander. S-l-a-n-d-e-r.

            I hope that helps.

            Please answer the aphasia question. Inquiring minds want to know. one might be able to publish it as an interesting and unique medical case report.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “If you had an honest case to make you would not bury it like you just did in clouds of obfuscation” – seriously ? the posts are right above this one. Right there, in great detail. What’s obfuscating about pointing exactly where you are wrong and proving it, in great detail ? why are you lying again ? I don’t get it.
            “It is a yes or no question” – No, I was talking about a very specific case, I literally proved it by bringing you the evidence of that specific case, you’re trying very hard to twist and “paraphrase” what I said, I literally asked you to address said specific video multiple times, linking it more than once, it took you some time to actually acknowledge it exists, then you tried to dismiss it’s existence, would you like me to quote you ? your denial of its existence was very amusing because it was right there. I pointed this to you about 4 times. Why are you lying about this too ? I don’t get it. Haven’t you lied enough ?
            Seriously are you slow or something ? just like the huge amount of posts above proving you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about, are you trying to pretend what I wrote about the guy and that specific video doesn’t exist ?
            “Therefore, you did not tell the truth” – are you mad ? this is beyond infantile. You’re lying about what I said when the posts are right there. I was referring to a specific video and what was in it, that was the whole point. It was hilarious how long it took you to accept its existence and then you tried to dismiss it, that was very amusing.
            You’re now lying again about things I said, you did so multiple times as I show in the posts above, I quote you and what I actually said. You’re really bad at this.
            “called anti-Semitizing. And it is also called slander. S-l-a-n-d-e-r” I nearly fell from the chair laughing so hard, thanks. This is exactly why I find you and your clueless lying nonsense so entertaining.
            “Please answer the aphasia question” – already addressed this hilarious nonsense of yours a post above it, you, of course, ignored it.
            “I hope that helps.” – didn’t help my neighbors, I think I woke them up, laughing so loudly.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Only you could follow ‘You, a strikingly promiscuous, even incontinent user of the epithet “liar”’ with ‘Ben, you’re lying about lying again’.
            Only you. Ausgezeichnet.

            “so you are not aware of the history of the ‘poison well’ blood libel”

            An Ido Geller patronizing classic. Absolutely classic. He always starts these little gems with “so…”
            “so…you are not aware that….”
            “so…you are not aware that Paris is the capital of France…”
            “so…you are not aware that trees photosynthesize…”

            Another classic Ido-generated “fact” that is not a fact, “evidence that is not evidence….

            I’d continue. You provide such low hanging fruit. But it is quite clear by now that I am feeding a troll. I apologize to other readers for feeding him for so long here.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben: “Only you could follow ‘You, a strikingly promiscuous, even incontinent user of the epithet “liar”’ with ‘Ben, you’re lying about lying again”. I repeat: there are quite a few examples in the posts above where I literally quote you lying and prove it. They are right there. I don’t get it. You think lying about this fact will somehow make all those examples disappear ?
            If you insist I’ll post some examples from the posts above:
            Ben: “Hamas and Fatah accept the legitimate existence of Israel.”
            Ido: “No they don’t, here is proof with links of their leaders and spokespersons literally spelling it out to you”
            Ben: “For Ido, when Israeli politicians say things it’s for ‘political’ purposes”.
            Ido: “lie, I didn’t say this, the article Bruce linked said it in the first paragraph”
            Ben: “Israel does not accept the legitimate existence of the Palestinians”.
            Ido: “lie, here’s the proof (Oslo Accords, which the Palestinians admitted were a deceit on their end, Gaza withdrawal, several peace negotiations attempts to create a second Palestinian state, etc”
            Ben: “the 1993 recognition of Israel was the mother of all concessions”.
            Ido. “Nope, Arafat was on record saying it was a deceit, he was following his Phased Plan, here is the proof (links in the Facebook comments section)”.
            Ben: “a recognition that Palestinians were surrendering their political claim to around 78% of what had very recently been their country”
            Ido: “Lie, a Palestinian country never existed. “Palestine” is a name of a geographic region last controlled by the British Mandate, a Palestinian country, the way the Palestinian narrative lies about, never existed. In fact most of Palestine is now a Palestinian Arab state, known as Jordan which was established on most of “Palestine”.
            Ben: “The Palestinians has recognized the independent statehood of the other, Israel”
            Ido: “Lie, see multiple evidence in the Facebook comments section”.
            Ben “The Palestinians have recognized Israel, in 1993 and many times since”
            Ido: “Lie, false. Hamas openly denies this, the PLO openly denies this. I linked the proof (again) in the Facebook comments section”
            Ben: “The Jewish nation doesn’t exist”
            Ido: “Hilarious lie, absurd, saying one of the oldest nations on earth doesn’t exist”
            Ben: “you said “The Palestinians are anti-Semites””
            Ido: “Lie, no I didn’t”.
            Ben: “You refuse to see the Palestinians as human beings”
            Ido: “Absurd lie, not only that, I talk about the Palestinian leadership, Hamas and Fatah/PLO, not all the Palestinians”
            Ben: “you said they’re all Jew-hating zombies, programmed to kill”
            Ido: “Lie, no I didn’t”
            Ben: “what you say is just propaganda”
            Ido: “Lie, I literally linked to videos of the leadership of both Palestinian faction saying what I claimed they say, you ignored it, again”
            Ben: “you incessantly generalize to all of the Palestinians”
            Ido: “Lie, I repeat: I specifically talk about the Palestinian leadership, not all the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians”
            Ben: “there is no video of the founder if ‘Breaking the Silence’ lying on video”
            Ido: “Lie, there it is”
            I think this will do for now. there are many more examples of you lying in general and about me here and in other articles on this site.

            “An Ido Geller patronizing classic” – so you were playing dumb again ? you were aware of the history of that blood libel ? with a little effort you would also become aware that the same lie was repeated by the anti-semite Holocaust denier Palestinian President himself and even he realized that was a bit too far, even for him.
            “Another classic Ido-generated “fact” that is not a fact, “evidence that is not evidence” – I ask again, how many times now ? prove it. Which fact is wrong ? which evidence is wrong ? go ahead.
            “You provide such low hanging fruit” – ah.. always great to close a post with a hearty laugh.
            “I apologize to other readers” – so you’re not going to ask the other readers to ignore the huge amount of posts above proving in detail how you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about ? remember when you did exactly that when you tried to change the subject ?
            that was glorious, that is why I enjoy our little discussions.

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