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Guess which of these human rights Israel guarantees to Palestinians

The right to equality? The right to free movement in and out of the country? How about the right to freedom from arbitrary arrest and exile? Or the right to marriage and family?

By Fady Khoury

A young woman runs past the slogans "Free Palestine" and "Hope" painted on the Israeli separation wall as hundreds of Palestinian and international athletes took part in the the inaugural Palestine Marathon which took place in Bethlehem, West Bank, April 21, 2013. Under the title Right to Movement, runners had to complete two laps of the same route, as organisers were unable to find a single course of 42 uninterrupted kilometres under Palestinian Authority control.

A young woman runs past the slogans “Free Palestine” and “Hope” painted on the Israeli separation wall as hundreds of Palestinian and international athletes took part in the the inaugural Palestine Marathon in Bethlehem, West Bank, April 21, 2013. (Activestills)

Everyone on Facebook is playing a game where they post nine concerts they’ve been to and one they haven’t. The idea is your friends have to guess which band you haven’t seen.

I want to play too, but I’ve been to only two concerts in my life, both of which were Mashrou’ Leila’s. So I thought of a different way to play.

Here are 10 human rights listed, among others, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Nine of these human rights are violated by Israel when it comes to Palestinians, and one is fully respected:

1. Right to Equality.
2. Right to Equality before the Law.
3. Right to Life, Liberty, Personal Security.
4. Freedom from Torture and Degrading Treatment.
5. Right to Remedy by Competent Tribunal.
6. Freedom from Arbitrary Arrest and Exile.
7. Right to Free Movement in and out of the Country.
8. Right to Marriage and Family.
9. Right to Own Property.
10. Right of Peaceful Assembly and Association.

Which one is the outlier here? look for the answer below.
___________________________________________________________

Okay, I tricked you. Israel violates them all.

Here’s how:

1. Right to Equality: In the West Bank, Jewish settlers enjoy privileges that their Palestinian neighbors do not. Within the Green Line territories, some laws give preference to Jews, as some practices do (one example is the Law of Return).

2. Right to Equality before the Law: Here, criminal law is one example, wherein Palestinians get more severe sentences. Also, police and military misconduct is rarely scrutinized (see this illuminating series and this) when the victim is Palestinian, and if they are held accountable, their punishments are often ridiculously light. Also, “Facebook arrests” of Palestinians based on posts deemed to be either supportive of terrorism or inciting it, while only very few Jews are held to the same standards.

3. Right to Life, Liberty, Personal Security: Palestinians’ lives do not matter as much as Israeli Jews’ lives do. Both police and military forces tend to shoot to kill (PDF) more frequently when it comes to Palestinian suspects in comparison with Israeli-Jewish suspects.

Israeli border policemen detain a Palestinian man at a checkpoint in Beit Enoon, near the West Bank city of Hebron, April 4, 2016. (Wisam Hashlamoun/FLASH90)

Israeli border policemen detain a Palestinian man at a checkpoint in Beit Enoon, near the West Bank city of Hebron, April 4, 2016. (Wisam Hashlamoun/FLASH90)

4. Freedom from Torture and Degrading Treatment: Come on! Does actual torture fit this bill? Or maybe extortion of gay Palestinians into becoming informants under the threat of outing them? Maybe the threat expressed to Palestinian minors arrested by the military of having their mothers and sisters raped if they do not cooperate/confess during their interrogation? Or, more generally, the whole detention procedure of Palestinian minors? Just pick your favorite.

5. Right to Remedy by Competent Tribunal: While in Israel, Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza are allowed to file lawsuits against the state for compensation in some contexts, namely if their damages are attributable to military actions that are not the result of “war operation,” many lawsuits are dismissed because Israel prohibits the plaintiffs’ entry to Israel so that they could testify and basically live up to the civil procedure code and other requirements, leading judges to simply throw out these lawsuits on the technicality of “Plaintiff’s absence.”

6. Freedom from Arbitrary Arrest and Exile: East Jerusalem (revoking of residency status for Palestinians) and the very-frequently utilized legal institution of administrative arrests.

7. Right to Free Movement in and out of the Country: Well, the siege on Gaza comes to mind. But also politically-based entry bans to Israel.

8. Right to Marriage and Family: As of 1998, Israel no longer allows West Bank/Gaza Palestinian spouses of citizens of Israel to acquire citizenship, basically barring family unification. One Supreme Court justice in the case submitted against this law proclaimed that while Palestinian citizens’ right to family is indeed a constitutional right, the exercise of that right in Israel is not.

9. Right to Own Property: The key words here are confiscations, appropriation, land grabs, absentees’ properties and settlements.

10. Right of Peaceful Assembly and Association: Palestinian peaceful protests in the West Bank are violently dispersed by the military forces. Within the Green Line, the militarized Israeli police force often treats Palestinian protestors more harshly than it does their Jewish counterparts, executing mass arrests and using violence to suppress demonstrations. More recently, the March of Return, which takes place every year to commemorate the Nakba, was almost canceled by the police. They claimed technical issues, when in reality, the reasons were more likely political, as the Nakba and its commemoration are considered a taboo in Israeli political culture.

Fady Khoury is a human rights lawyer and a doctoral candidate at Harvard Law School.

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    COMMENTS

    1. Itshak Gordin Halevy

      Guess which one of these human rights the Hamas guarantees to his Israeli prisoners

      Reply to Comment
      • Jan

        Why are you comparing Israel and Hamas? Hamas never made the claim that they are a democracy for everyone. Israel makes that claim even though it is far from true.

        Reply to Comment
        • JeffB

          @Jan

          Israel never makes the claim it is a democracy for everyone. It claims to be a democracy for governing a Jewish state. The democracy openly claims it exists to further the interests of the Jewish nation. That’s not to say it doesn’t offer quite a few protections and has an overall good rights record given the circumstances. But no it never makes the claim to being a democracy for everyone. Nor does any other country’s democracy. France is a democracy for the French. Chinese and Nigerians lack quite a few rights in France until they gain citizenship.

          Reply to Comment
      • Dave

        Unlike Israel, Hamas doesn’t claim to be a democracy, Hamas is not illegally occupying internationally recognized Israeli territory, receive $4 Billion of free U.S. free dollars each year to help pay for an illegal occupation, have its own special interest group lobbying on its behalf before the U.S. Congress or a cabal of powerful Americans sympathetic to its plight and ensuring that any international outcry over any atrocity committed by Hamas will be effectively silenced by the United States.

        Reply to Comment
        • JeffB

          @Dave

          Hamas is not illegally occupying internationally recognized territory

          Arguably it is. The UN and USA did not recognize the Hamas coup against the PA and still consider the PA the legitimate government of Gaza.

          receive $4 Billion of free U.S. free dollars each year

          Hamas receives aide from Iran. Europe provides quite a bit of aide to the PA.

          have its own special interest group lobbying on its behalf before the U.S. Congress

          You are kidding right. The National Council of Churches is huge and lobbies for them. More directly: National Association of Arab-Americans, American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (Senator Abourezk’s organization) , Arab American Institute (Zogby’s organization)…

          or a cabal of powerful Americans sympathetic to its plight

          Again you are kidding right? The number of Americans who detest Israel is in the tens of millions.

          any international outcry over any atrocity committed by Hamas will be effectively silenced by the United States.

          What is silenced about Israel? Israel gets vastly more coverage than any minor tribal war in the world in the United States.

          Reply to Comment
          • Dave

            Yes, Jeff B, Hamas & the Palestinian Authority receive foreign support, and Iran supplies arms to both Palestinian political groups, but my country, the USA, is financing a quarter of the costs required to maintain the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian Territories and the last time I checked the Palestinians were not occupying by force any territories internationally recognized as sovereign Israeli land.

            Meanwhile, I am still waiting for AIPAC to register as an agent representing a foreign government, a US Federal requirement conveniently ignored by Congress since AIPAC was created nearly 60 years ago. Any American groups that speak on the Palestinians behalf, such as the National Organization of Churches and lobby Congress due so from a human rights perspective and demand enforcement of the human rights requirements that accompany US aid, which Israel receives 60% of the total share distributed. Moreover, America’s aid to Israel consists overwhelmingly of weapons and military hardware, a significant percentage of which goes towards maintaining and expanding the military occupation of the Palestinian Territories.

            And we both know that civil marriage does not exist in Israel, and that couples of different faiths are forced to travel outside of Israel to marry, and though the marriage may be recognized by Israel, the non-Jewish/non-Israeli spouce is legally prohibited from living in Israel with their married partner.

            Perhaps the most hypocritical Israeli claim is that it serves as a safe refuge for world wide anti-Semitism, yet my Reform family has more freedom to have our branch of our Jewish faith legally recognized by secular US authorities than if we were to attempt to receive legal recognition, and be married and buried by a Reform rabbi in the “Jewish State of Israel.”

            Face it, JeffB, American Jews and Israeli Jews are 2 dissimilar groups united by a common faith. American Jews are a minority living under a secular government and used to interacting with others different from themselves, Israeli Jews are the majority living under a government that legally discriminates in favor of Jewish ethnicity & who have grown accustomed to isolating and ignoring those that are deemed incapable of assimilation.

            Reply to Comment
          • JeffB

            @Dave

            and the last time I checked the Palestinians were not occupying by force any territories internationally recognized as sovereign Israeli land.

            I notice your change there. Well since you are American, then the Israelis are not occupying by force any territories congressionally recognized as sovereign Palestinian land. The UN derives its power and authority over you from the Senate not visa versa.

            Meanwhile, I am still waiting for AIPAC to register as an agent representing a foreign government, a US Federal requirement conveniently ignored by Congress since AIPAC was created nearly 60 years ago.

            Here is the form. https://www.fara.gov/forms/2014/OMB_1124_0001.pdf Fill it out for AIPAC. Who are you going to put down as the Israelis funding AIPAC (starting question 7)? That is after all the definition of an agent of a foreign government. It has nothing to do with agreeing with a foreign government.

            Moreover, America’s aid to Israel consists overwhelmingly of weapons and military hardware,

            It is not overwhelmingly it is exclusively. There is no non-military aide to Israel. The aide can only be used to buy American arms.

            the non-Jewish/non-Israeli spouce is legally prohibited from living in Israel with their married partner.

            That is absolutely false. Heck I have in-laws whom Israel considers Christian (again for you Israelis your Chief Rabbi is terrible) that live quite comfortably in Israel because of marriage.

            yet my Reform family has more freedom to have our branch of our Jewish faith legally recognized by secular US authorities

            US secular authorities make no claim to recognize or not recognize branches of any religion including Judaism. What are you talking about? The only thing they are willing to recognize about your branch is that they filled in the tax exempt paperwork and some people registered with the state to perform ceremonial / religious marriage. They don’t recognize your branch as legitimate or illegitimate, they don’t care.

            Israel has a state churches. Recognized religious authorities are branches of the government. You can’t setup your own religious agency in Israel and expect recognition anymore than you could setup your own department of motor vehicles in a US state and expect recognition.

            Do I like the fact that Israelis are religious bigots when it comes to strains of Judaism they don’t believe in. No not particularly. But Israel is a democracy and Israelis overwhelming consider your religion a fraudulent form of Judaism and by overwhelming majorities oppose giving it equality with various orthodox faiths. There is some push for tolerances of varying degrees but that mainly comes from Americans being a PIA and imposing our way of life on others, colonialism.

            Face it, JeffB, American Jews and Israeli Jews are 2 dissimilar groups united by a common faith. American Jews are a minority living under a secular government and used to interacting with others different from themselves, Israeli Jews are the majority living under a government that legally discriminates in favor of Jewish ethnicity & who have grown accustomed to isolating and ignoring those that are deemed incapable of assimilation.

            In general I don’t disagree with you American Jews and Israeli Jews are different. They are Sabra they don’t have to compromise their nationality. Their nationality is thick ours is quite thin. They live in their home by right. A right won by war first against timidity, then the Ottomans, then the mosquitoes, then the British, then the Arabs. You and I live in our home by gift from our Christian neighbors. They are part of the Jewish rebirth, you and I are the dying embers of the galut.

            But some of what you wrote I can’t agree with. Israelis travel, and they travel a lot more than Americans do. They have successfully absorbed multiple major subgroups each of a percentage of population the USA hasn’t had to do since the 1920 immigration wave ended. They aren’t bigots. Their minority is being assimilated. Palestine grows ever less real and ever more like the dreamy Zion that existed for centuries in prayer.

            Reply to Comment
        • carmen

          Just a suggestion – please don’t provide oxygen to this space occupying lesion. He’s nothing more than a narcissist who believes he always right, kind of a tRUMP type – he needs lots of attention and claims he is right when he is so horribly, horribly wrong.

          Reply to Comment
    2. carmen

      This is helpful and being forwarded to everyone I know in the u.s. This is beyond shameful. What kind of hold does the zionist state have on the u.n. that keeps it from sanctioning it to the hilt? Not Nikki Haley. Is the answer in Dimona?

      (btw halevy it’s Hamas, not ‘the’ Hamas and your constant one liner wrt to Hamas has nothing to do with this article. Also, get off your ass, search the net and maybe you can answer your own questions? The context here isn’t going to be changed just because you’re pulling a ‘look over there, not over here’ number)

      Reply to Comment
      • Itshak Gordin Halevy

        No, it has. We do not want double standards. It can be Hamas, The Hamas or BS, the problem is the same. The Hamas is the “Palestinian” State and we can all see its primitive and ugly behavior.

        Reply to Comment
        • carmen

          That’s all YOU see jack – you speak for no one and represent no one, only your little self. That’s all YOU see because that’s all you want to see. How is it you went from the grossly paternal ‘elegant arabs’ on one thread to ‘primitive’ and ‘ugly?’ on this one. Fraud. I think you’re turned on by the women and scared gutless of the men. Typical.

          Reply to Comment
          • Itshak Gordin Halevy

            Carmen,
            A wide majority of Israeli citizen agree with me. The Arab girls we can see in the center of Jerusalem seem to be happy, full of joy. They want to work, to have a career, to spend their money, to be independent and not to depend on a man. They enjoy to walk in a modern town, in a democracy. That is why the Arab birth rate in the 1967 cease fire lines and in Judea and Samaria is falling.

            Reply to Comment
          • carmen

            Editorial // This Is How Israel Inflates Its Jewish Majority
            The stats bureau’s annual population report is a ludicrous piece of propaganda that includes settlers but not all Palestinians under Israeli control
            Haaretz Editorial | 
            Apr 30, 2017 1:03 AM

            Why do you always brag about birthrates halevy? And now lovely Arab girls that you claim to know so much about. TROLL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Itshak Gordin Halevy

            The birth rate of Jewish women is higher than the Arab one. In some parts of the Judea-Samaria this Jewish rate is 60 % higher according to some foreign leftist groups. I do not read Haaretz, but I think that the official statistics are correct. I do not know personally Arab girls. However I observe them and listen to them. From 2005 to 2010 the Arab birth rate fall from 4,6 to 3,6. Now it is 3,13 and it will probably continue to fall. It is the opposite among the Jewish population. The birth rate among Jewish orthodox is 5,6 in the 67 lines and much more in the Judea-Samaria. I can assure you, as a Jewish patriot I do not worry. In fact I am more than satisfied.

            Reply to Comment
          • carmen

            I don’t give a damn what you may or may not be worried about. and you’ve veered off the topic, which you were never on in the first place. FO. continue to e.s.a.d.

            Reply to Comment
    3. bb

      Stop The Barbaric Terrorism against Jews.

      Reply to Comment
      • DJ

        “Stop the barbaric terrorism against Jews”? Germany made similar claims to protect ethnic pockets of ts own population against “foreign terrorists” when they seized the Sutedenland and Czechoslovakia in the 1930’s, BB-

        Reply to Comment
      • carmen

        “barbarism”, israeli style.

        Duma arson attack – Wikipedia
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_arson_attack

        Israeli wedding party celebrates Dawabsheh killings – Al Jazeera …
        http://www.aljazeera.com/…/israeli-wedding-party-celebrates-dawabsheh-killings-15122405

        Eritrean man was lynched by Israelis in uniform, new video shows …
        https://electronicintifada.net/…/eritrean-man-was-lynched-israelis-uniform-new-video

        Palestinian footballers shot by Israeli forces never to play again
        http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=673479

        “They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists . . . are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists.”
        Ayelet Shaked

        “I’ve killed lots of Arabs in my life – and there’s no problem with that.”
        Naftali Bennett

        Reply to Comment
      • carmen

        You and the other trolls obviously don’t read the articles, just come here to offer your troll droppings.

        Reply to Comment
    4. Geoff

      All of these are examples of how Israel treats hostile non-citizens. It didn’t OWE non-citizens equal treatment, especially while they keep their “struggle” to murder them all.

      Jews aren’t arrested for Facebook posts because they don’t regularly go out and stab Palestinians to death – something you can’t claim works both ways.

      Reply to Comment
      • Dave

        And why are “they” considered “Israeli non citizens”, Geoff- because “they” belong to the wrong ethnicity? Because “they” are non-Jews? Because “they” comprise an ethnic population deemed incapable of assimilation into Jewish Israeli society? Reread the above list, substitute the word “Jew” for Palestinian and “Germany” for “Jewish/Israel” and you have a nice little summary of the Nuremberg laws.

        Reply to Comment
        • JeffB

          @Dave

          nice little summary of the Nuremberg laws

          Love how BDSers always go there.

          Are marriages between Jews and Palestinians conducted abroad invalid?
          Are there any penalties for sex between Jews and Palestinians much less hard labor?
          Are Palestinians allowed to employ Jews?
          Are Palestinians banned from flying the Israeli flag?
          Are Palestinians allowed to become Israeli citizens?

          No one of those are true. There isn’t one Nuremburg law in effect. There is nothing remotely like the Nuremburg laws being applied. I’m not sure if you were lying or just ignorant, but you certainly intended to be as offensive as possible.

          Reply to Comment
          • i_like_ike52

            I told Carmen in the thread about the French elections that her fellow “progressives” are going to end up pushing the Jewish of Europe and North America to eventually move to Israel because, instead of working for peace and reconciliation between the Jews and Arabs, they simply demonize Israel AND ALL THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT. By continually pushing the Israel = National Socialism line, they are going to end up pushing all the Jews out of the Left and they are going to realize that there is NO grounds for a compromise peace, because the “progressives” always end up justifying the endless Palestinian rejectionism.

            Ken Livingston enjoys repeating the “Hitler was a Zionist” line, presumably to tie National Socialism to Israel, as did this previous comment. However, if Hitler is to be considered a “Zionist” since he ended up pushing large numbers (but, tragically, not large enough) numbers of Jews to move to Eretz Israel then then so was Stalin…in fact he said the very words “I am a Zionist” to FDR and he sold weapons to Israel when no one else would.
            Who else is Livinston Zionist? Well, Nasser who expelled the Jews of Egypt, so was Qaddafi, so was Khomeini and all the Arab leaders who pushed the Jews out of their countries, to Israel. Thus, if Livingston and all the “progressives” have their way, regular Jews who have some sort of attachment to Israel, which is the majority of world Jewry, are going to realize there is no future for them in “progressive” society, and should BDS spread, the Jews will become isolated in the countries that adopt BDS. They will then realize the only future for Jews is in ISRAEL.

            Reply to Comment
          • JeffB

            @Ike

            Couldn’t agree more. This whole trope is stomach churning evil. Right now in my country this sort of thing is confined to the looney left and not part of the mainstream (except on college campuses). But it is nauseating behavior.

            pushing the Jewish of Europe and North America to eventually move to Israel

            Europe it is possible. There aren’t many countries with meaningful Jewish populations left. Jews of North America… I’d say

            Canada: Jews are moderate conservative swingy voters. No one wants to offend Jews by going to far. The controversy even among the Greens in endorsing BDS demonstrates this. I’d say fine for now.

            Mexico: Antisemitism / anti-Zionism is closely tied to anti-Americanism. I’d say Trump is a bigger factor than BDS for those Jews. Though some of it does come through via. countries like Venezuela.

            USA: Jews have been very slowly moving right. I’d think it is possible that BDS will push Jews out of being a cornerstone of American liberalism and turn them into Republicans. Beyond that, I don’t think they have the power to do much.

            They will then realize the only future for Jews is in ISRAEL.

            They already do mostly realize that. That’s why you get so much support. No one doubts you all are the future and we are the relics of the past.

            Reply to Comment
          • carmen

            Yeah Ike, I was particularly impressed by this: “You also missed the great irony of Giladi himself, who went to live in the US and DID NOT RETURN TO IRAQ, even thought the Jews supposedly had it good there.”

            You sure got me with that one. Incredible that he chose to stay in the us and not go to israel.

            What ffs has this got to do with this story? Nothing.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sj6achyA24

            Reply to Comment
      • duh

        The Palestinians are the rightful citizens of the post-Ottoman entity in Palestine. They are kept stateless by the invader Zionist movement and its paramilitary arm, the “IDF”.

        Reply to Comment
    5. Bruce Gould

      In the immortal words of Larry Derfner: it’s not a popularity contest. The Palestinians have the right to their own miserable state without having to deal with Israel’s miserable state on top of it.

      Reply to Comment
    6. Ben

      “Israel never makes the claim it is a democracy for everyone. It claims to be a democracy for governing a Jewish state. The democracy openly claims it exists to further the interests of the Jewish nation. That’s not to say it doesn’t offer quite a few protections and has an overall good rights record given the circumstances. But no it never makes the claim to being a democracy for everyone. Nor does any other country’s democracy. France is a democracy for the French. Chinese and Nigerians lack quite a few rights in France until they gain citizenship”

      JeffB, what is this fabrication that “Israel never makes the claim it is a democracy for everyone.” It sure as hell does. Netanyahu makes that claim all the time, in English, to Americans and Europeans. What is this doubletalk about no democracies making a claim to be a democracy for everyone? Excuse me? Yes France is a democracy for the French. For all the citizens of France. Regardless of religion or ethnicity or national origin. Explicitly. The USA is the same. But Israel is not a democracy for all Israelis and that suits you and ought to suit all Israelis and everyone else? What is this slippery talk about “a democracy for governing a Jewish state”? What does that mean? These are all slippery euphemisms for a kind of soft-pedaled fascism. It is of a piece with your statement that:

      “The purpose of a state is to be an entity for collective force for a nation. The nation in this case are Israeli Jews.”

      You always talk in veiled and incoherent euphemisms for what is essentially an ethos of a Jewish supremacism and denial of full rights to non-Jews, masquerading as a democracy. I’m struck by your inveterate habit of euphemistic talk, for tacit endorsements of things you won’t come right out and say straightforwardly because you know they are execrable. Not to mention your capacity for outright fabrications.

      Reply to Comment
      • JeffB

        @Ben

        We’ve talked about France. France is a democracy for the French nation. When the French nation control of France was contested it reacted, as was proven to you though you kept trying to change the subject.

        Israel is quite explicit is a Jewish state. That was one of Netanyahu’s key demands in the last round of negotiations, that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state. So no he does not make the claim. He claims quite unequivocally there is a Jewish nation, Israel is the state that exists for that nation and the democracy of Israel is a way that the Jewish state decides issues.

        As for the fascism… that was already addressed. That was Weber who was the leader of a moderate democratic party. Your issue is not with Fascism it is with The Peace of Westphalia and the entire concept of national self determination. You need to start reading some basic theory of government.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          OK, Jeffie, enough of your games. You have not answered my questions. I will repeat them and interrogate your answers.

          1a. Are you really going to lie to me and say that Netanyahu does not make the claim that Israel is a democracy? This is too easy to disprove.
          1b. If on the other hand that qualifier, “for everyone” means to you, privately, that Netanyahu means “Israel is democratic for Jews but not for its Arab citizens, for them Israel is Jewish,” then I have exposed you as saying something quite different. It is surely not something Netanyahu has said, has he?
          1c. Can I see where he has actually said what you imply he has said?

          2. Moreover, are you really and in fact making the extraordinary claim that “no democracies make a claim to be a democracy for everyone? Please tell us what you mean by this and prove this extraordinary claim.

          3. Again, what does “a democracy for governing a Jewish state” mean?

          4. What does “France is a democracy for the French nation” mean?

          5a. What does “When the French nation control of France was contested it reacted” mean?
          5b. In what words was it proven to me? Reproduce your proof.

          6a. What does “the democracy of Israel is a way that the Jewish state decides issues” mean? Be specific and clear. Spell it out.
          6b. Does it mean that Israel is not a democracy “for everyone” who is a citizen of Israel?. 6c. And if so, does not that constitute an admission that “Jewish and democratic” is an impossibility?

          7a. What was “already addressed” about fascism?
          7b. What does “That was Weber who was the leader of a moderate democratic party” mean?
          7c. What does “Your issue is not with Fascism it is with The Peace of Westphalia and the entire concept of national self determination” mean?
          7d. What does “You need to start reading some basic theory of government” mean?

          Surely you can find it within yourself to make yourself much clearer and less opaque and less evasive and euphemistic. If you cannot, or will not, then it will be clear that you merely doubled down on the double talk and euphemistic language and that bullshit is bullshit.

          Here is a handy template for you to answer me. Just fill in the blanks. No need to preface or copy and paste my questions. The numbering will serve as a handy key for you and me. I aim to make it as easy as possible.

          1a.
          1b.
          1c.
          2.
          3.
          4.
          5a.
          5b.
          6a.
          6b.
          6c.
          7a.
          7b.
          7c.
          7d.

          Reply to Comment
          • JeffB

            @Ben

            There is now a long response in queue. This may show up first since that one has several web links

            Reply to Comment
          • JeffB

            @Ben

            Looks like the long response may not go through. So I’ll try one question at a time and see if these make it.

            @Ben

            1a. Are you really going to lie to me and say that Netanyahu does not make the claim that Israel is a democracy? This is too easy to disprove.

            No I’m not going to claim that. And that wasn’t the point under disagreement. Your claim was that Netanyahu makes the claim that “Israel is a democracy for everyone”.

            1b. If on the other hand that qualifier, “for everyone” means to you, privately, that Netanyahu means “Israel is democratic for Jews but not for its Arab citizens, for them Israel is Jewish,” then I have exposed you as saying something quite different. It is surely not something Netanyahu has said, has he?

            Israel is democratic for Jews and for its Arab citizens. That’s not what it means.

            1c. Can I see where he has actually said what you imply he has said?
            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/04/binyamin-netanyahu-israel-jewish-state

            Reply to Comment
          • JeffB

            @Ben

            2. Moreover, are you really and in fact making the extraordinary claim that “no democracies make a claim to be a democracy for everyone? Please tell us what you mean by this and prove this extraordinary claim.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

            3. Again, what does “a democracy for governing a Jewish state” mean?

            Israel claims to be the nation of Jews. It isn’t, but let’s separate the ideology off from the reality by distinguishing. Let’s call the population of Jewish Israelis the Hebrews. The state exists as the mechanism for organizing collective action, in particular when force is needed (police, army, taxation, enforcement of court orders) of the Hebrew nation. The mechanism by which the Hebrew nation decide on which collective actions to take is democratic. That democratic mechanism can include extra-national input but its purpose is ultimately to serve the interests of the Hebrew people.

            4. What does “France is a democracy for the French nation” mean?

            The state exists as the mechanism for organizing collective action, in particular when force is needed (police, army, taxation, enforcement of court orders…) of the French nation. The mechanism by which the French nation decide on which collective actions to take is democratic. That democratic mechanism can include extra-national input but its purpose is ultimately to serve the interests of the French people.

            Reply to Comment
          • JeffB

            @Ben

            5a. What does “When the French nation control of France was contested it reacted” mean?

            The French state (earlier Frankish states) were both formed by and helped form the French nation. It has enculturated a French identity onto the peoples of the territory of France thus unifying the inhabitants of the territory, the nation and the citizens of the state into groups that overlap almost completely. When there have arisen cultural threats to this overlap the French state has suppressed them.

            5b. In what words was it proven to me? Reproduce your proof.

            skipped for now. We’ll go back later after I see your response.

            6a. What does “the democracy of Israel is a way that the Jewish state decides issues” mean? Be specific and clear. Spell it out.

            A nation is confronted with many choices about priorities. Most of the state ones are who pays for various state services and who benefits from them. Though a government engages in many other activities. The mechanism by which the Hebrew (see above) people decide these issues is a via. an open collective conversation. Politicians exist as a mechanism for turning what is a vague and contradictory conversation into actionable policies. Elections exist to make sure the political class is doing a good job at this function. That’s a democracy. Israel has a emocratic government both at the local level and country level via. the Knesset.

            6b. Does it mean that Israel is not a democracy “for everyone” who is a citizen of Israel?.

            Extra-nationals can participate in the democracy and they overtime assimilate into the nation.

            6c. And if so, does not that constitute an admission that “Jewish and democratic” is an impossibility?

            Not at all. No more than French and democratic is.

            Reply to Comment
          • JeffB

            @Ben

            Still seeing if these smaller ones get through

            7a. What was “already addressed” about fascism? 7b. What does “That was Weber who was the leader of a moderate democratic party” mean? 7c. What does “Your issue is not with Fascism it is with The Peace of Westphalia and the entire concept of national self determination” mean?

            The definition you originally attributed to being quasi-fascistic originates was a literal quote (excluding translation) from Max Weber (see for a summary: http://www.politicalsciencenotes.com/theories-of-state/weberian-theory-of-state-explained/767
            ) Weber was a moderate democrat not a fascist. Much of what you are calling fascism is simply the concept of a nation state. The nation state has been the dominant political theory for how best to establish government in the west since the Peace of Westphalia (1648). This is what established the idea of self determination for nations and ultimately led to possibility for democracy. Without enough shared culture people disagree too much on the nature of the good to have beneficial common conversations about policy and thus democracy is usually unworkable.

            7d. What does “You need to start reading some basic theory of government” mean?

            It means what it says. You are evidently lacking in having had basic conversations like
            i) Why do governments exist
            ii) What are the units of people that are governable
            iii) How should a people choose a government
            iv) What should be the relationship between different peoples under different governments

            etc… A lot of this dialogue about Israel is being driven you never having really thought through these sorts of fundamental issues about government (polysci 101). The contradictions in your head resulting in you holding Israel to an impossible standard, no country could possibly meet contradictory criteria.

            Reply to Comment
          • JeffB

            @Ben

            Well it looked like everything but question 1 made it through broken up. Not sure what the problem is with question 1. I’m going to snip the link

            1a. Are you really going to lie to me and say that Netanyahu does not make the claim that Israel is a democracy? This is too easy to disprove.

            No I’m not going to claim that. And that wasn’t the point under disagreement. Your claim was that Netanyahu makes the claim that “Israel is a democracy for everyone”.

            1b. If on the other hand that qualifier, “for everyone” means to you, privately, that Netanyahu means “Israel is democratic for Jews but not for its Arab citizens, for them Israel is Jewish,” then I have exposed you as saying something quite different. It is surely not something Netanyahu has said, has he?

            Israel is democratic for Jews and for its Arab citizens. That’s not what it means.

            1c. Can I see where he has actually said what you imply he has said?

            Link was to an article in the Guardian. Just google Netanayhu Jewish state and tons of alternative links come up.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            1a, 1b. Yet more evasiveness. You make the claim that Netanyahu does not make the claim that “Israel is a democracy for everyone.” But, “Israel is democratic for Jews and for its Arab citizens.” What then, does “Israel is a democracy for everyone” mean? What group is Israel not a democracy for if, as you, maintain, Israel is a democracy for Jews and Arabs but not “for everyone”? Who is left out?

            1c. Finally, JeffB, you come clean and open about something. We see clearly that you employ untruthfully the word “democracy.” Netanyahu’s statement–that “”The state of Israel provides full equal rights, individual rights, to all its citizens, but it is the nation state of one people only – the Jewish people – and of no other people”–is a lie. A lie based upon a fairy tale about the nature and perfectability of man (of which the American founders knew a lot about and thus designed their system of checks and balances and their Declaration, Constitution and Bill of Rights).
            Noam Sheizaf has ably dissected why it is a lie:
            https://972mag.com/why-i-oppose-recognizing-israel-as-a-jewish-state/78751/
            And Tzipi Livni, in her contrasting the key words “national home” with “nation state” echoes Sheizaf’s clear reasoning. Less forthrightly than Sheizaf, but nevertheless.

            2. But of course Israel is much closer to Switzerland than to Swaziland in its core makeup. (From your page: “The notion of a unifying “national identity” also extends to countries that host multiple ethnic or language groups, such as India and China. For example, Switzerland is constitutionally a confederation of cantons, and has four official languages, but it has also a ‘Swiss’ national identity, a national history and a classic national hero, Wilhelm Tell.”) Where this project of yours fails is in pretending Israel is a Swaziland and trying to force on Israel a Jewish supremacist ethnic resolution instead of facing reality. This nicely delineates the flaws in your approach. We have made progress. And it also points to how Israel could move in the direction of Switzerland in regards to its basic political anatomy. Switzerland is interesting because it is a highly defense- and security-oriented country, has always been independent, always looked after its own security, with a people’s army, etc. Are the comparisons exact? Of course not, but neither is your forcing on Israel a Swaziland type uniformity it simply does not and cannot have.
            And emerging from this is the notion of “Israeliness.” Israeliness as the specific cultural group or people that the state chooses to adopt and endorse. So, to use the concept you are fond of, assimilation, assimilation to “Israeliness” is what both Jews and Arabs can work towards. Assimilation. We have found common ground; a breakthrough in our relations, JeffB.

            3. See 2. Above. “Hebrew nation” does not do justice to Israeli reality any more than “Swiss German nation,” “Swiss French nation” or “Swiss Italian nation” does justice to Swiss reality. You pull another fast one, JeffB , with “That democratic mechanism can include extra-national input but its purpose is ultimately to serve the interests of the Hebrew people.” We come to a screeching halt on that one. “Extra-national input”? What does it mean? Another JeffB classic. But this is good. We are flushing out how you really think behind the euphemisms.

            4. See 3. Above. “Extra-national input”? Interests of “the French people”? And who, exactly, would “the French People” be? And who among the citizenry of France (the homeland of the Enlightenment and of the rights of man, a land of welcome and asylum”) is “extra-national”? You see the problem.

            5a. A lot of gobbledygook. Vagaries. Are we actually really talking about the Huguenots? I would like to know. Without much more down-to-earth, plainer talk from you, I count 5a as a non-contribution to the discussion. And plain talk would also explain how the sociopolitical norms of “earlier Frankish states” translates to modern political systems and modern values. The Franks? I write to you on May 2, 2017, Jeff. Not May 2, 417 C.E.

            5b. We’ll wait.

            6a. I count this a non-response in terms of the salient issues. It would be perfectly satisfactory as the outline of a 5th grade American civics class lesson. But in response to the salient issues at an adult level, it does not earn a pass.

            6b. See 2., 3., 4. Above. In addition, what does “…overtime assimilate…” mean. Spell it out, clearly.

            6c. This is not an adequate reply. See all of the above. Especially 4.

            7a, b, c. “Weber was a moderate democrat not a fascist.” Really, you don’t say? Your website explains that according to Weber, the state is “a symbol of collective action which means whatever the state performs is always for the general public of the community and not for particular group of people.” Your website describes Weber as the thinker I know him to be: one that I am certain would have championed “a state of all its citizens.”
            “Without enough shared culture people disagree too much on the nature of the good to have beneficial common conversations about policy and thus democracy is usually unworkable.” Indeed. It is Naftali Bennett who would deny Ayman Odeh that shared culture, not the other way around.

            7d. You are presumptuous and surely do not realize how stupidly patronizing you sound or you wouldn’t have written such condescending nonsense. Although maybe having read 1-6 you do realize.

            Reply to Comment
      • Liz

        The right is doing its utmost to turn Israel into an extremist state ruled by neo-fascists and theocrats and its utmost to deny this is happening. Seems that even they realise that a bad smell wafts over their actions.

        Reply to Comment
    7. JeffB

      @Liz

      The right is doing its utmost to turn Israel into an extremist state ruled by neo-fascists and theocrats

      Calm down. The right is aiming to turn Israel into a more normalized state ruled by conservatives. As part of this they are normalizing the role of the state church. There isn’t a crisis here. They are just working through some of the contradictions that Ben Gurion left behind.

      Reply to Comment
      • carmen

        ‘Calm down?’ You patronizing troll dropping.

        Reply to Comment
      • Ben

        More condescending euphemistic talk.

        “a more normalized state”

        What does it mean?

        “ruled by conservatives”

        What does it mean?

        “a more normalized state ruled by conservatives”

        What does it mean?

        “state church”

        What does it mean?

        “normalizing the role of the state church”

        What does it mean?

        It cannot mean anything like England’s nominal Church of England today. You want to return us to the days of Thomas More and Henry the VIII?
        This indeed is “a crisis.”

        “the contradictions that Ben Gurion left behind”

        What are they, as you see them?

        “There isn’t a crisis here.”

        Spoken by a smug American who deems non-Jewish inhabitants something less, nothing to worry about, in the life he pines for in “a future” that leaves behind the decadent “dead relic” of his diaspora life and gives glorious rebirth to the “collective force of the nation” based on ethnicity and religion. Not a crisis for him. For others? Never mind them–they’re “extra-nationals” who await the hollowing out “Assimilation” Procedure. And they will like it.

        Quasi-fascist themes: the rebirth myth, ultra-nationalism, the myth of decadence and authoritarian reversal of decadence. Themes spoken in a chirpy “wouldn’t it be neat” voice of someone who apparently has not any real idea what bloody century he is in or what 20th century bloodbaths were generated by the themes he plays with in such a facile manner.

        Reply to Comment
      • Dave

        In order words, trust us. Meanwhile, thanks to the efforts of American sympathizers, the only American lobbying organization not required to register as an agent representing a foreign government wants to ensure that there is no “daylight” between the United States and Israel, yet demands many “daylight” exemptions defining Israel’s relationship with the USA: no signed mutual defense treaty will exist between Israel and the United States, but the U.S. will continue to pay 25% of the total operating costs of the Israeli army protecting Jewish-only settlements in the Occupied Territories, America and Israel will develop advanced weapons systems together, yet Israel will continue to engage in industrial espionage against the USA and rank third, behind China and Russia as the most active nation engaged in spying theft against the United States, Israel will be regarded as a developing country by the USA and receive 60% of America’s total foreign aid budget yet Israel will possess an advanced technological economy with a standard of living superior to that of many EU member states, freedom of speech will be given lip service by the two nations, but anti-BDS legislation passed in the United States will legally prohibit any criticism of Israel and its actions in the Occupied Territories as Anti-Semetic “hate speech”, American Jews will work tirelessly to maintain a strict legal separation between organized religion and secular government in the USA while “The Jewish State of Israel” will maintain a Jim Crow style government in the Occupied Territories that denies legal rights, enfranchisement and privileges based solely upon State determined ethnicity and religion, and U.S, non Orthodox American Jews will be allowed to explore the many streams of their faith in America while Israel will continue to prohibit Jews officially practice any non Orthodox form of Judaism.

        Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. Except when it fails to act like one.

        Reply to Comment
    8. Sandra Duffy

      I understand Warren and Sanders have signed a letter condemning the recent UN resolution against Israel and supporting the stance of the new UN ambassador. Even the best of US politicians are spineless and despicable on the Israeli apartheid regime.

      Reply to Comment
      • carmen

        The u.s. has no credibility at all and must recuse itself from any further brinkmanship in the matter of the middle east. Not an honest broker at all.

        Reply to Comment
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