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EU policy on Israel: 'More-for-more' or carrots and sticks?

Nothing is polarizing European politicians as much as Israel-Palestine, says a member of the EU Parliament. Notes from a symposium in the Netherlands.

EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton with PM Benjamin Netanyahu (Photo: GPO/Avi Ohayun)

EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton with PM Benjamin Netanyahu (Photo: GPO/Avi Ohayun)

I took part in a one-day symposium on the EU’s policy toward Israel/Palestine last week in The Hague. The event, which took place at the Clingendael Institute, was hosted by “A Different Jewish Voice,” a local pro-peace group. Among the speakers were the EU’s former envoy to the region, the current EU director for Middle East policy and three Dutch politicians, all from the center-Left. There were some interesting comments made, which I would like to share with our readers.

The central issues discussed at the symposium were: should Europe develop its own policy, separate from the American-led Kerry process? What should such a policy look like? Is there room for initiating measures against the government in Jerusalem if it continues with its current settlement policies?

Some speakers expressed resentment that the EU doesn’t have a leading role in shaping the political arrangement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, but is nevertheless asked to finance them. The fact that EU foreign policy chief Cathrine Ashton is not briefed more frequently and more thoroughly on the process was brought up as an example of Europe’s lesser role.

The possibility of Europe taking steps against the occupation was a recurring theme, along with whether EU policy toward Israel should include more “sticks,” or simply keep with its “more-for-more” policy that rewards Israel only for progress toward a two-state solution. Former EU Mideast envoy Miguel Moratinos argued against sticks, saying they would simply result in Israel pushing the EU out the process. “It’s not going to work,” he said. However, Moratinos strongly argued for the EU to recognize Palestine, whether the process fails or succeed.

I found some comments by Marietje Schaake, a Dutch representative to the European Parliament, to be very interesting (the following are not quotes but a summary of my written notes): according to Schaake, there is no other foreign policy topic that polarizes the European Parliament like Israel/Palestine. It has reached the point where the EU trade delegation to the Palestinian side is no longer “on speaking terms” with the trade delegation to the Israeli side .(I’ve witnessed this dynamic before: diplomats who work in the OPT become frustrated and angry over the failure to act on the Palestinian issue.) She noted that the division is principally generational, and that believes Israel will face a much tougher diplomatic reality once the baby boomer generation of EU politicians and diplomats leave their posts.

The “more-for-more” strategy exists more on paper than in real life, Schaake said, and she called on the EU to uphold its existing agreements with Israel. However, she opposed the idea of sanctions and advocated stronger European engagement with Israeli civil society.

The most senior EU official present was the European External Action Service’s Middle East director, Christian Berger. Mr. Berger acknowledged that for now, Kerry “is the only game in town.” He noted that during George W. Bush’s first term, U.S. involvement substantially decreased and when Israel destroyed the PA, “the EU was called upon to pick up the pieces.” Since then, Berger said, the EU has been urging Washington to be more involved; so the current process is something Europe actually wanted.

However, Mr. Berger also said that if nothing comes of the two-state solution, the EU will need to rethink the ways it can support the Palestinians. This was his most important statement, referring to concrete measures that could be taken if the process fails.

Like Ms. Schaake, Mr. Berger mentioned Article 2 of the 1995 trade agreement between Israel and the EU, which conditions the agreement on respect for human rights, and could provide the EU with a platform for action. (Article 2 states that, “relations between the Parties, as well as all the provisions of the Agreement itself, shall be based on respect for human rights and democratic principles, which guides their internal and international policy and constitutes an essential element of this Agreement.)

It should be noted that Christian Berger was personally targeted in the Israeli press following the publications of the guidelines on EU projects in Israel last summer. Mr. Berger even referred to this criticism, stating that the guidelines are in accordance with EU policy, and “not the result of over-zealous bureaucrats.”

As for the Israeli and Palestinian speakers: Palestinian Adel Atieh was very skeptical about the Kerry process and urged more action by the EU. I said what I have written here many times: the entire Israeli system, at every level, has an inherent tendency toward maintaining current trends on the ground (what we often refer to as the status quo). Without major external pressure or another Palestinian revolt, those trends are unlikely to change on any fundamental level.

Another Israeli speaker, Prof. Menachem Klein, had some interesting things to say on using the legal term “occupation” to describe reality in the West Bank and Gaza. I asked Klein to publish his remarks, and I will do so here next week.

* **

At the end of the day I walked away with the impression that the debate in the EU is indeed shifting; but more importantly, unlike in the U.S., the conversation in Europe is focused on political action. Most of the time I feel that in the U.S. they are still talking about how to talk about Israel/Palestine, whereas actual policies are being discussed in The Hague. (The U.S. only discusses policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians, hence their “success” in getting concessions out of them.) At the same time, it was clear that for the duration of the Kerry process, no other tracks, ideas or policies will be implemented.

It was interesting to see acknowledgement of the fact that as long as the current status quo persists, the EU is actually funding the occupation. As long as Ramallah continues asking for that funding, however, the EU is unlikely to cut it off.

Measures like labeling settlement products seem to truly be around the corner, especially if the current talks collapse. However, such measures are unlikely to have more than a psychological effect on Israelis due to the Israeli government providing compensation to settlers for any loss of income, among other reasons.

On the other hand, if the EU starts targeting Israeli companies and institutions that operate in the West Bank, it could have a huge impact on Israeli policy and on the Israeli financial and business elites’ willingness to take part in those policies. So even if the EU decides to cut ties with the occupation, a lot depends on the way EU members interpret what that actually means.

Related:
Former senior EU officials: ‘Oslo process has nothing more to offer’
EU: Guidelines weren’t meant to stop Israeli entities operating beyond Green Line
Ending the occupation: No way around direct pressure on Israel

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    COMMENTS

    1. Rami

      “whereas actual policies are being discussed in The Hague” – just to correct, the EU institutions are not based in the Hague, but in Brussels. Unless you consider the ICJ or the Dutch government a majorpolicy actor in the Middle East, The Hague has little influence on European policy.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ginger Eis

        While most EU-institutions are based in Brussels (Belgium), some are based in Frankfurt, (Germany), Luxemburg and Strasburg (France). The Hague, The Netherlands is the permanent seat of one EU Agency/Body: Europol. But we get the gist of what you are saying and thanks for your remark.

        Reply to Comment
    2. Ginger Eis

      Mr. Noam Sheizaf, “what embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism”. The “Settlements” occupy LESS THAN 4% of Judea and Samaria! But apparently you and a bunch unelected EU-bureaucrats have convinced yourselves that said 4% is the reason for the absence of peace in the ME, and that, as such, the businesses and companies of ordinary Jews must be targeted for destruction in order to force a political reality that you and your ilk desire, but have so miserably failed to achieve through the ballot box! That, Noam, is a form of terrorism. Do you ever reflect and engage in self-criticism? When it becomes kosher to openly discuss targeting the businesses of ordinary Jews for boycotts and destruction (as was the case during the Nazi-era, the inquisition, pogroms, etc.), a moral red-line shall have been crossed and the Jewry and the wider non-Jewish sane world will not sit-by and watch. Just as WE defeated Mordechai Vanunu et al., you and other Kapos will be defeated!

      Reply to Comment
      • bob wisby

        Exactly, Ginger. And in a way, it’s a relief to see that we are finally coming out into the open, and declaring war on the World. Of course, that war has been raging for all of recorded history. But this time we’ve got nuclear weapons!

        Reply to Comment
    3. shachalnur

      Marietje Schaake is Dutch ,not Danish.

      She represents “Democraten 66″(D66),a small “centrist” party that has 10 seats(6,9%) in the Dutch Parlement.

      Reply to Comment
    4. yes. of course. corrected, thanks

      Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        D’66 is bit of a strange party in Holland,small but with immense power.

        Els Borst,the Dutch former Health Minister found dead last week,is an active member of this party,and famous for her pro-Eugenics ideas.

        She died of un-natural causes,and no truthfull info is coming out.

        I’m following all the (alternative)news in Dutch around this case,and will report when I know more.

        D’66,Clingendael Institute,are terms that in Holland are connected to the invisble PTB,and usually a cesspool of lies.

        I don’t understand what “A Different Jewish Voice” is trying to do associating with these people,we’ll know with time.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ginger Eis

          Granted, Noam Sheizaf made a couple of mistakes in his articles, but there is no need to milk- and/or use it as a cover to provide us with more bad facts of your own, my friend Shachalnur. D66 has 12 seats in the Dutch Parliament (2e Kamer) not “10”. D66 is a small, liberal left wing party, not “centrist”. D66’s political power is not disproportionate to the number of its seats in the parliament, and as such possesses no “immense power”. Heck, D’66 is not even in the government! Police investigation/autopsy report shows that Els Borst was the victim of a violent crime in her home garage. Nothing nefarious is going on with said investigation. “D’66,Clingendael Institute,are terms that in Holland are connected to the invisble PTB,and usually a cesspool of lies”?! WTF are ya talking about, my friend? Would you like to explain?

          Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Ginger Eis,

            Are you aware that a Wiki search doesn’t make you a specialist on Dutch politics or the Dutch PTB?

            I know about Clingendael,D’66,Els Borst and a lot more because I grew up right in the middle of this cesspool called “the Dutch Elite”.

            I went to the same school and class as the current Prime Minister,and several other politicians and powerbrokers in Holland.

            Power structures in Holland are based on where you grow up,what family,what school,what fraternity etc.

            Because of Dutch political idiosyncrasy D66 are very powerfull as a balance of power between right and left,and participated in most Dutch governments since the 70’s.

            Explaining Els Borst includes words like Eugenics,Euthanasia,massive amounts of highly toxic waste in impregnated wood,livertransplant for heavy drinking Party boss and so on.

            Not sure anybody is too interested in that on this site.

            The death of Els Borst stinks,especially after several lawyers and journalists “fell off their bikes” lately(I’m not joking) and were very seriously injured and one even died,besides Els Borst.

            Journalists,lawyers and politicians are being silenced in Holland right now,and it looks like D66 is collaborating,so whatever they state has to be scrutenized,especially when they speak in Clingendael.

            They’ve had to stop the activities that made them not popular amongst TPTB in Holland.

            Read a bit about a man called Joris Demmink,and the suspicious amount of unsolved and unexplained murders and disappearances of young people in Holland,and the cover-up’s going on perpetrated by certain political parties(including D 66),judges(many D 66 supporters amongst them) and the press.

            Like I said ,if I know more I’ll report on it.

            Nice try,by the way.

            But you don’t seem very brave,refusing to confront me on the substance of my comments.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ginger Eis

            My friend Shachalnur, first few basic rules of debate: (a) never say stuff you are not sure of, (b) never brag, (c) if you make mistake promptly acknowledge it (without rationalizing), apologize and move on. Indeed I need no Wikipedia for the information I provide. The info you provided are simply false. If you disagree, you are obliged to make a point by point rebuttal and provide your source(s) in Dutch, English, German or Hebrew (choose whichever language is better for you). The claims you make about where- and with whom you went to school and lived are totally irrelevant! Btw. what you call “Holland” is called The Netherlands (Dutch: Nederland). ‘Holland’ is the name of two provinces (i.e. “Noord- en Zuid Holland”) in The Netherlands (someone who knows the Netherlands so well as you claim to would not repeat common mistakes made by others who are less fortunate, no?).

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Whatever.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ginger Eis

            My friend Shachalnur, here are the final rules of debate: when you lose a debate(a) acknowledge defeat promptly and without grudges (for such is honorable), (b) congratulate your opponent (for such shows class), (c) shake hands friendly and (d) move on (never take defeat personal).

            Reply to Comment
          • Ginger Eis

            For those wondering about what Clingendael Institute is, here is a short answer: “Clingendael Instituut” it is nothing but a Dutch Thinktank on International Relations and Diplomacy. It has nothing to do with developing and/or promoting Euthanasia and/or Eugenics. The link below offers more info. It is in Dutch, but I could translate a couples of information for anyone who asks (nicely).

            http://www.clingendael.nl/?lang=nl

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            You are right,you won the “debate” hands down,I look like an ignorant fool compared to you.

            I’m not sure how I’m gonna recuperate from such a drubbing,and I’m considering becoming a crypto-Fascist,like you.

            Anthing to get this feeling of being a winner.

            And I congratulate you on the fact you succesfully killed all discussion.

            En je gedraagt je als een recalcitrant sukkeltje,je hebt geen kans tegen mij,en je weet het.

            Eugenics and Euthanasia are connected to Els Borst ,not Clingendael.

            Talking to you is like playing chess with a pigeon;
            you crap on the board,knock over the pieces and fly back to your flock claiming victory.

            Therefore “whatever”.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ginger Eis

            “Whatever”, was your reply to my post requesting you for rebuttal – remember? That was the end of the debate. Let’s be truthful.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            SSRIs?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ginger Eis

            Neen, doch je moeder misschien? Immers, jij doet het met haar, terwijl zij schreeuwt zoals een gekke. Opdonderen, oen!

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Wow,that’s some smart translating machine you have there,it almost sounds like a human writing it .

            For those wanting to learn Internet translation;

            “No,though your mother maybe.
            Indeed,you are doing it with her,while she screams like a crazy person.Get lost,twit.”

            Twisted Dutch from a tanslation app..

            And an abusive post,I wonder what the moderators have to say about that.

            Looks like I wasn’t far off with the SSRIs.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Bully for you, Scachalnur! It seems as though you know pretty much all there is to know. And you’ve picked up the famous Dutch sense of humour, too! What a well rounded little person you are. Well done.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Bob,

            Not sure I “know everything there is to know”,but I might be getting close on certain subjects.

            Dealing with Zionism there’s a serious impediment though;it’s not what you know,it’s what you are allowed to say.

            You showed up with Voltaire and the Hottentots elsewhere,but another quote by Voltaire describes the whole problem in solving the current predicament Judaism (and the world ) is in.

            “To learn who rules over you,simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize”.

            Even +972 magazine is suffering from this problem.

            Without adressing this problem ,we’re all blind.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Shachalnur, do you mean the homosexuals? You can’t say anything against them? Or blacks? They’re off limits, too. Surely you don’t mean the Jews? Criticism of the Jews is found everywhere. The media is full of worried self-questioning and endless discussion by Jews about Jews. Not sure it leads anywhere, though. It’s like water off a duck’s back. Facts on the ground are what counts, not the endless prattling of the World. You have to admit, though, the illusion of open debate is wonderfully staged managed.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Bob,

            Completely agree with your last sentence.

            “The ones you’re not allowed to criticize” are of a totally different order.

            I remember Proffesor Slomo Sand being asked about this problem in an interview with Gnostic Media and he said”Criticizing them is anti-Semitism”.

            And that came from someone who claims anti-Semitism doesn’t exist.

            I’m still not sure what happened because I never got an answer from +972,but I had one comment vanish first and at the second attempt went into moderation and dissappeared.

            Out of respect for the site I won’t repeat the content,because it might be off-limits.

            The post contained quotes by Jewish former British PM Benjamin Disraeli,Pres. Woodrow Wilson,Jewish British historian Simon Shama,the World Zionist Congress,and the Balfour declaration.

            Mixing them together is not allowed,
            not here ,not anywhere.

            Eppur si muove.

            “Facts on the ground” can change dramatically within a day,the ones you’re not allowed to criticize will be there untill we recognize and stop them.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Bob,

            Not the homosexuals,not the blacks,not “the Jews”,and not even the duck.

            And I agree with your last sentence.

            Reply to Comment
    5. Vadim

      Noam, there are two sides participating in this conflict. Both did their share of bad things. From a practical perspective, it’s ineffective to apply pressure on only one side. Pressure and sanctions should be used on both sides or on none.

      Reply to Comment
      • bob wisby

        Yes, Vadim, you’re quite right; it’s important to remember there are two sides involved. There always are. There are two sides involved in a rape as well.

        Reply to Comment
        • Tzutzik

          “There are two sides involved in a rape as well.”

          As a motherfucker like you knows all too well.

          Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            You’ve done it again, there, Tzutzik. Gratuitous insults seem to be your forte.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            So says the pot to the kettle.

            By the way, I did not insult you. It is a well known fact that Nazis marry their mothers in order to keep their Aryan blood pure. I would have thought you feel proud for doing your duty, Busby, er … Wisby … er Bob?

            Reply to Comment
    6. Kolumn9

      The EU as a body doesn’t have the capacity for a determined foreign policy. The best that the EU can do is support American policy in the region.

      The EU pressuring Israel is not particularly likely to work. As it is, the continent is seen as hostile to Israel and its motives suspect. Israel is not going to allow the EU a leading seat at the table and there is really very little that the EU can do to change that. Applying more pressure on Israel would only mean that the EU would get pushed further out of the picture.

      At this point Israeli organizations that collect money from the European states are basically seen as traitorous scum. This mostly has to do with the usual kind of pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli, anti-establishment organizations the Europeans sponsor, but in Israeli eyes it has led to Europe being seen as fundamentally hostile to Israel. Europeans might think this unfair but then again they are the ones spending their money on bankrolling the marginal pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli left in Israel. It doesn’t take much of an imagination that European steps to pressure Israel would only push Israelis into further seeing Europe as hostile and to make attempts to lessen European influence in the region.

      Reply to Comment
    7. Ludwig

      It would be interesting to know Christian Berger’s wording, when he addressed Article 2 of the Association-Agreement between Israel and the EU.

      The implications might be far-reaching, as the EU could suspend other aspects of the agreement, like Israel’s free trade privileges, in the case of a European consensus on Israel being in breach of the “essential” provisions on human rights and democracy of Article 2.

      Such public statements by a department director of the European foreign ministry could mean the EU will reconsider all areas of cooperation with Israel, when the current negotiations fail. The same would apply probably, if the PA implodes or the Council of Ministers decides to consider the two-state-solution no longer viable.

      Or Bergers’s statement was purely theoretical and meaningless. All depends on wording.

      Reply to Comment
    8. directrob

      Noam, I do not know whether you read these posts but I am Dutch and you have some serious moderating to do.

      Although I understand the sentiment towards Ginger “recalcitrant sukkeltje” is a personal attack and deserves a serious warning.

      “Neen, doch je moeder misschien? Immers, jij doet het met haar, terwijl zij schreeuwt zoals een gekke. Opdonderen, oen!” Is bad Dutch but so outrageous it should result in permanent removal of the poster.

      Please remove this post, if you remove the discussion between shachalnur and ginger eis.

      Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        Wow,Mr.Directrob,you’re really something.

        “sukkeltje” is best translated into “little simpleton”,someone not that clever.

        Quite harmless and being used in Dutch daily between kids,friends,and strangers as a joke.

        The rest of my quote means; “You don’t stand a chance against me (in debate) and you know it”.

        Mr. Ginger’s quote is stating I’m doing it with my mother,while she’s screaming like crazy.

        You might have an interest in removing my posts ,which contain interesting information for people who don’t know anything about Dutch politics and TPTB.

        By the way I’m honored by this much attention from Hasbara Central.

        About removing Mr Ginger,;eventhough his language is deplorable,he seems like a person that is losing it under pressure,so I’m not taking it personal.

        You haven’t shown any ability in translating Dutch untill now,and that Ginger’s post is “bad Dutch” I already stated.

        Maybe you can write a sentence in Dutch that makes more sense than what Ginger wrote?

        You want people silenced based on your claim you’re Dutch,without proving it.

        Achenebbisj.

        Reply to Comment
      • Tzutzik

        @directrob

        I always find it fascinating how self righteous and precious you guys become when one of us becomes rude in the face of outrageous provocation and open anti-Semitism.

        Take this Wisby guy for instance. He claims that we Jews, as a people, engage in human organ trafficking, prostitution, and we flood the world of gentiles with drugs.

        The above is classic Nazi antisemitism abd a blood libel. So have you asked, Noam to permanently ban this Wisby Nazi fron this site? If not, why not?

        Reply to Comment
        • shachalnur

          Tzuzik,

          I think anybody asking a moderator to ban another person, is despicable.

          Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “I think anybody asking a moderator to ban another person, is despicable.”

            Bully for you scahalnur.

            Then I hope you won’t mind me being rude to your admirer, Bob Wisby? I can’t help myself. I am always rude to Nazis.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzuzik,

            Calling everybody a Nazi is despicable as well,since you don’t know whom you address.

            You defended Ginger’s outburst by claiming he did this “in the face of outragious provocation and open anti-Semitism”.

            You’re addressing me.

            Calling everybody anti-Semite is despicable as well,since you don’t know whom you address.

            It’s possible you labelled two Jews as Nazi or anti-Semite in one day.

            Kol hakavod lecha.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Shachalnur

            First of all, I did NOT call YOU an anti-Semite. Should I have?

            As to Wisby, he IS an anti-Semite. Unless you think that people who claim that ALL of Israel and ALL Israelis are involved in human organ trafficking, drugs and prostitution because we don’t subscribe to the morality of Jesus, are Judeophiles.

            Next time, read before you comment. In the meanwhile, Kol Hakavod for giving me the opportunity to again highlight that we have a troll in our midst. His name is Bob Wisby. Take the trouble to read his posts. He is all over the place. One minute he is a more extreme Zionist than I am. The next minute he calls all Jews pimps, prostitutes, traffickers of human flesh and organs. The next minute he laments the massacre of Jews in Hebron in 1929. Then he compares Israel to rapists. It all adds up to one word TROLL!!!

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            You know someone once accused Walt Whitman of contradicting himself, expressing two opposing views. He replied, “Of course I contradict myself; I am large.” Only fanatics hold to a single, unwaverable viewpoint. Are you a fanatic, Tzutzik?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            You tell me Bob. Ask your mother maybe she knows. Oops, I mean your wife.

            Oops I forgot … Your mother and your wife are one and the same person.

            And your child is your brother too. I hope his blood is as pure and Aryan as your’ and your mother’s. Eh, what do you think, Bob? LOL …

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            “I think anybody asking a moderator to ban another person, is despicable.”

            OK, so you’re not Jewish, then.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “OK, so you’re not Jewish, then.”

            Has your uncle Adolf taught you that trick, Bob, of how to spot a Jew?

            Very impressive … LOL.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik and Bob.,

            I do agree Bob is trolling a bit,and it would be better if he would give a source for his allegations.

            The sources are there,I know them,but they are shaky,so bring ‘m on.

            As long as Bob doesn’t source his arguments,it might be better not to feed the troll.

            Bob,you asked my opinion about “the ones you’re not allowed to criticize”,and I did ,allthough belated,and self censored.

            Try to wrap your brain around that one.(further up the page)

            We’re polluting the commentboard with all this ad hominem ping pong,and it will put off others to join the discussion.

            I’m sure both of you can agree with that.

            Let’s stick to the facts,and then we see where we’ll get.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Thanks for asking, Shachalnur. Most (actually all)of my information comes from sources such as Haaretz, Ynet, Jerusalem Post, The Tablet and other news outlets like that. You really don’t need to search very hard. Most stuff is out in the open, it’s just that we’ve all been trained to see something else.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Bob,

            That’s why I said the sources for your allegations are known(to me),but I do feel you are stating these facts a little bit out of proportion and context.

            It looks like the Tzutzik’s and Ginger’s are not aware of the fact that what they call “anti-Semite” or “Nazi” can be found in Israeli newspapers and other Jewish sources,even Zionist.

            Yesterday Lenni Brenner released a new article called “Zionism in the age of dictators” ,shocking as ever,but causing nothing but cognitive dissonance in most Zionists.

            Do you know his “51 documents”?

            So ,in order to keep the commentboard
            a place to inform,learn and discuss,please source your arguments.

            It looks like some additional education is needed for most Zionists,but without sourcing it,it will just turn into a brawl.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Shachalnur

            I have no arguments about Israel’s arms deals. I already acknowledged that.

            As for Bob’s allegations that Israel’s economy would survive because the Jews of Israel wheel and deal in human organ theft including murder, I consider that a blood libel. And I bet Haaretz and Y-net don’t back up that allegation.

            If they do, yes please, I want to see a link to such stories. I notice, Bob’s reluctunce to do so.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Thanks, Shachalnur. You seem to be unusually well-read. I would just like to clarify a point, though: I don’t make any accusations concerning events which may or may not have occurred hundreds of years ago. It’s hard enough to figure out what happened last week (Ukraine, anyone?). So if it offends anyone’s delicate sensibilities if I ask questions, then that’s unfortunate. But people are free to look through back issues of Haaretz and see some of the more recent accusations, arrests and convictions for organ smuggling that have interested the Israeli press. What Israel needs is a decent ‘memory hole’.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “It looks like the Tzutzik’s and Ginger’s are not aware of the fact that what they call “anti-Semite” or “Nazi” can be found in Israeli newspapers and other Jewish sources,even Zionist.”

            I am aware of things like this, shacalnur:

            http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4363994,00.html

            But notice that Israel jails perpetrators of human organ trafficking. Would it do that if Israel’s entire economy would be pinned up by such crimes? Which is a libellous allegation that Bob made against all Israeli Jews. He urged us to fess up and stare “the Goyim” down. Those were his words. Not mine.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Oh and Shachalnur, please don’t put words in my mouth and don’t pretend that I am just a backwater hilbilly who does not know what goes on.

            Let there be no mistake about it. If someone says that there are individual Israelis/Jews involved in crime, including organ trafficking, I have no bone to pick with them. I don’t call them Nazis because I know that such things do happen. And yes, I even know that there are organised crime syndicates operating in Israel in the same way that there are such crime syndicates in all parts of the western world.

            I do however draw the line when the Bob Wisby’s of the world turn this into a blood libel against all of Israel and the Jewish people. And yes, even Haaretz, a staunchly left leaning newspaper agrees with me about that. Here, read about it:

            http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/using-jewish-humor-to-fight-a-new-european-blood-libel-1.1381?v=1BBC89DEC8071275E61B7F1476E493F0

            Now if you are really genuine, you too would condemn Bob instead of just skirting around the issue and pretending that I am just a naive ill informed knee jerk accuser of antisemitism against everyone who does not agree with me.

            I expect no less from other honest lefties on this site but it they appear to be not too many of that kind. Most of you seem to just circle the wagon reflexively and go on the attack. Sad.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            try search; “human organ trafficking ynet”

            first hit;”Ukraine;Israeli headed organ trafficking ring-ynet

            second hit: article with link to ynet; israeli police arrests 10 israeli’s including physician,organ harvesting network.

            search, “Human organ trafficking haaretz”

            first hit; israeli police uncovers ring in north israel

            second hit;Jerusalem man importing kidneys

            third hit;two israeli’s Kosovo organ trafficking

            fourth hit;israeli ring in costa rica

            etc.

            You shouldn’t bet on things you refuse to face,it’s called “cognitive dissonance”,and it’s a b*tch.

            Time to educate ourselves before we get wiped out by ignorance.

            Try “Missing Yemeni Babies” or “the Ringworm Affair”.

            It’s called Eugenics,and Israel,like US and Europe are part and victim of this.

            “To find out who rules over you,simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize”.(Voltaire)

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Thats all you got Shachalnur?

            I already responded to that but you ignored all my points. Talking about cognitive dissonanance, physician heal thiself.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            Shwaia shwaia,habibi!

            Why so agressive?

            There’s all kinds of Jews,and some are fiercely anti-Zionist or even anti-Israel.

            The Israeli government has just declared war on a big part of them,the Orthodox.

            There are (Zionist) Jews that viciously attack all Zionist governments Israel ever had for being murderers of Jews.

            Ever tried Barry Chamish?Lenni Brenner? Rabbi Meshulam?

            I’ve got a huge list for you of these writers,Rabbi’s,historians, politicians,journalists,doctors,etc.

            All Jews,and they are all……what?

            Anti-Semites?Nazi’s?Blood-libeling self-hating Jews?

            Did you check out Masada2000 ,Kahane’s site, 7000+ Jewish S.H.I.T. list(Self Hating Israel Threatening)?

            And what about the 17 million Jews that have turned their backs on organized Judaism,since 1945, for all imaginable reasons?

            Shwaia shwaia habibi,they are playing us off against eachother.

            But “they” don’t exist,so there’s no problem.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            I am aggressive, Shachalnur? Maybe with Bob, yes because he has proved himself to be a racist. But not with you, Shachalnur, maybe a bit impatient, I admit that …

            But let’s lay this to rest. I will present to you direct quotes of what Bob said, not my paraphrased words of it. You judge for yourself:

            “The problem is, Tzutzik, (as far as I can see it anyway) is that when we try to deny involvement in human trafficking, organ theft, drug dealing etc…we make ourselves look silly. If we were to simply ‘man up’ and say, “Yeah, that’s what we do, who’s gonna stop us? We’ve got guns now…” we’d look a lot more honest. And really, why pretend that these activities are immoral? Because Jesus said so? How long must we Jews labor under the yoke of a foreign, alien set of ethics? All this namby pamby ‘human rights’ nonsense just doesn’t suit our people, Tzutzik. Time to come out loud and proud. What would Aaron Lopez (the wealthiest, most important of New Englands 18th Century slave traders) say, if he could see his fellow Jews today, tangling themselves in knots trying to pretend to share a value system with the goyim?”

            Note how he is pretending to be Jewish. And this too …

            “Most Jews are just hostages to a dark cult, brainwashed and frightened.”

            Here, look here if you want context, near the beginning of the thread:

            http://972mag.com/how-eu-money-enables-israel-to-continue-the-occupation-avoid-its-consequences/87583/

            Now tell me is this guy racist or not? And please don’t beat around the bush a simple yes or no will suffice. But if you want to justify your answer, please feel free. I am all ears …

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            I’ll give it a try.

            I disagree with Bob’s conclusions on the organ story ,and his rant is racist,but I’m reserving judgement on if Bob’s (still) a Jew.

            Imagine you’re a Jew and something or someone shows you a different side of Judaism and 1897 Zionism(the rabbithole).

            The deeper you go down the rabbithole ,the uglier it gets,especially because the sources are fellow Jews.

            What now?

            Close your eyes and ears and march on like everything is fine?

            Many Jews can’t and some become religious(gozriem be’tsjuva),some turn their backs on Judaism and some get stuck in the middle(maybe like Bob).

            Some brilliant Jews went weird once they got close to the bottom of the rabbithole.

            You seem mighty stuck in Bob’s alleged anti-Semitism,but did you ever have a good look at the other things I mentioned?

            “The Missing Yemeni Babies”,”The Ringworm Affair”,”Depo Proveera for Jewish Ethyopian women”, Barry Chamish,Rabbi Meshulam,Lenni Brenner?

            These very serious anomalies show there’s something seriously wrong with the fabric of 1897 Zionist Paradise.

            Bob’s other assertion however “Most Jews are just hostages to a dark cult,brainwashed and frightened”,is underwritten by a growing number of Jews and a much bigger amount of non-Jews.

            And they are not talking about Israel,the Israeli government or Judaism itself,but about “the ones you’re not allowed to criticize”.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            @Shachalnur

            You know what? For what it is worth, I am happy with your answer. You agree with me that what our Bob said, IS RACIST! That’s all I wanted to hear from you. It tells me that while our politics may not be the same, at least you are a real person with whom one can have a reasonable discussion at the end of which we most probably would agree to disagree.

            As to whether Bob is Jewish or not, I don’t really care. Even though I doubt that he is, I’ll say it again, I don’t care. Either way, he holds a racist point of view. And that DOES bother me, as I hope it would bother all civilised people, left wingers or right wingers. Because we know the slippery slope that racism can lead to.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            I know that’s all you wanted to hear.

            And that makes you a much a much bigger danger to Judaism and Jews than Bob’s racist rant will ever be.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Really? Tell me more.

            Actually, I am quite shocked that you don’t consider racism, whether coming from a Jew or a non Jew, the biggest danger to humanity. We had ample opportunity to see what racism can lead to in history … But maybe I will learn something from you.

            I am listening. Your turn, shachalnur.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Are you still rushing around trying to hang your pathetic ‘racist!’ placard around someone’s neck, Tzutzik? It’s so 1980s, man. Franz Boas and Freud aren’t on the curriculum anymore. Nobody’s scared of your old bogeymen. The straw-man witch-hunt has been discredited as a mode of research.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Eh Bob? … What did you say son? … Are you talking gibberish again?

            Speak up son …

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            That’s a long story ,my friend.

            You’re gonna have to read some stuff.

            search Barry Chamish the Ringworm Children.

            He’s an Israeli/Canadian Zionist,famous for his book on the murder of Rabin(recommended read as well)

            then youtube The ringworm children 1,2,3,4,5.
            (Israeli documentary)

            search Barry Chamish,The Missing Yemenite Children.

            search Lenni Brenner,51 documents

            search Lenni Brenner,Zionism in the age of Zionism

            Both articles can be found on Counterpunch.

            By the time you know what this is about,I’ll give you names and articles of (ex)Jews that go even further.

            All these sources are (Israeli) Jews,and their debunkers are few and weak.

            MSM hardly talks about these historical facts.

            These facts are just the tip of the iceberg,and any well thinking person can see there’s something badly wrong .

            And there’s a lot more where that came from.

            I specialize in Eugenics,the main science a hundred years ago,and alive today and killing Jews and non-Jews alike.

            To understand today’s events you have to study science and history over the last hundred years,however strange it sounds.

            Talk to you later.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            typo,

            Should be Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the age of dictators.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            “And that makes you a much a much bigger danger to Judaism and Jews than Bob’s racist rant will ever be.”

            Exactly, Shachalnur. By the way, I saw Tzutzik’s name for my first time today, in Isaac Bashevis Singer’s ‘Shosha’. The name is introduced as a nickname for the protagonist by a friend who say’s of him, “He writes like a man but he is a little boy, so we call him ‘Tsutsik'”. Marvelous writer, Singer. Have you read his novel ‘Scum’?

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Exactly, Shachalnur.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Again I ask you Shachalnur, are you serious? Are you saying that someone like me is more dangerous to Judaism than someone like Bob who wants to keep alive old blood libels against Jews?

            Care to elaborate how you arrive at such curious conclusion?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Ok Shachalnur I get it. You want to have a discussion with me about how we Jews lost our way because a bunch of Jewish and non Jewish thinkers think so. Ok we can have that discussion and I suspect that on some things we might agree, on many more things we won’t agree.

            But let me guess, you anticipate that too. The fact that we won’t agree on everything. And that’s the reason you think I am more dangerous than an “alleged antisemite” like Bob who peddles the modern version of the old blood libel against Jews that we drink the blood of gentiles?

            Again I ask you, are you serious?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Ok Shachalnur

            Let’s start with the good news (for you I suspect):

            I think that Rabin’s murder was a despicable crime by a deranged idiot who thought that he was ridding Israel of a leader who was pushing Israel into an abyss. Instead, he split the nation and only time will tell whether that damage can be healed or not. Having said that, he was right about his assessment that the Oslo initiative would be a dead end. We know that now. At the time though, I agreed with Rabin. I also agree that Yigal Amir should spend the rest of his life in jail for what he did.

            Now, Shachalnur, is this enough to get you to start enlightening me why you think I pose such a major danger to Judaism?

            Or do you want me to read more of your “stuff” before you start the process of my enlightenment?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            I gave you some articles to read fom (Israeli) Jews that’s all.

            Take it or leave it,and it seems you never read anything about these issues,besides the MSM on Rabin(not the issue here).

            So why bother you with for example”The Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Anthropology,Human Heredity and Eugenics”?

            Shachalnur wants this ,anticipates that,thinks something else……

            I’m not important,the information is.

            I’m nobody.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Perhaps Tzutzik should also have a glance through Einstein’s letter to the New York Times of Dec 4 1948, or his other letters warning about the dangers of Jewish terrorism. We could ask Tzutzik to read these things, but there’s almost no chance of that. He knows best. His uncle told him some stories and that’s all there’s room for in his tiny little mind.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Bob,

            Please source your information.

            Einstein was a co-signer of a letter to the NYT in 1948 objecting to Begin visiting the US.

            If you have knowledge of any other letters, then source or link.

            There’s no need piling things on.

            I’m quite sure you weren’t born as enlightened as you think you are now.

            What was that racist rant good for,unless you want to create havoc on the commentboard,which is a way of trolling,and killing all civilized discussion?

            Source your arguments or leave others alone while they are exchanging ideas.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Shachalnur, that sounds like a lot of hard work. Was it Camus or some other frog who said, “Proofs weary the truth”? Anyway, I don’t really enjoy an atmosphere laden with outworn shibboleths. Have you ever wondered why there needs to be a special word to describe the antipathy felt by some toward the Jewish people? Why can’t that position just be termed ‘anti-Jew’, in the same way as everything else and its ‘anti’ are? We see anti-Christian, anti-Muslim, anti-gay and anti-Aborigine. But in this one case, the term is an exotic one, an elevated, academic sounding one, and with such nomenclature, it is very easy work to position anyone suffering with these thoughts within the realm of psychiatry. Start there and work things out. Meantime, here’s a cherry-picked sentence from Einstein’s 1938 speech ‘Our Debt to Zionism’.

            “My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest.”

            I know, I know, the letter goes on to say many other things and that ultimately Einstein was a warm Zionist. But was he so wrong in this particular thought, do you think?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Bob,

            What’s wrong with hard work,or do you “sit like an effendi and eat”(Rabbi Ovadia Josef z”l).

            You sound a bit like a Gilad Atzmon adept.

            Though a hard worker, a brilliant musician,with interesting ideas,he’s short on facts,long on philosophy,and I doubt his motives.

            Einstein was a clever man,a lousy family man(understatement),and in 50 years his scientific theories will be mostly forgotten.

            One quote might give him a place in history;

            “I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought,but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones”

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought,but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones”

            Yes I heard that one too and it is a truism. But one does not have to be an Einstein to know it is true.
            🙂

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            So how would you call those who know with what weapons WW3 will be,or is already being, fought?

            And what could it mean for the rest of his “truism”.

            He knew……and he kept silent.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Who is keeping silent? Bibi is screaming his lungs out trying to stop the Iranians from acquiring the weapons that we all fear.

            On the other hand, if that’s not what you meant and you blame me for not screaming at Israel for allegedly having those weapons. You won’t succeed in convincing me.

            You know why? Because the genie is out of the bottle and I am unabashedly for Israel (my country). The last thing I want is to be stupidly altruistic, strip ourselves of deterring weapons only to find our enemies using such weapons against us or even just overpowering us by their sheer numbers. Nope, no, nyet, Lo, non, I am not that altruistic …

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            The weapons where WW3 is being fought with are anything but nuclear.

            If you don’t even recognize the weapons ,you’ll be clueless,therefore your homework.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Shachalnur sounds terribly mysterious.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            It’s interesting, this whole issue of ‘motives’. Do you think Atzmon secretly harbours a desire to don jackboots and instigate a collective massacre of the Jews? Is that what you distrust about his motives? Insane paranoia, anyone? Of course, if Atzmon were not Jewish, he’d be in jail by now, for his thought crimes. Or am I making this all up, Shachalnur?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “His uncle told him some stories and that’s all there’s room for in his tiny little mind.”

            My uncle? You mean my uncle Misha Brith Milah?

            Well, Bob, I will have you know that my uncle Milah was a very wise man. Much wiser than you Bob.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            I hear you Shachalnur. I read the next item on your list, “Barry Chamish the Ringworm Children.”

            If true, it is shocking. But it seems that some people don’t think it is true. Here, read the link below.

            http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2007/03/ringworm_hoax.html

            But let’s assume it is true. Even then, what is your point? That there are bad people in this world? Bad Jews? Bad Zionists? I know that already. I think bad people should be exposed and punished whoever they are and wherever they are.

            I actually had a glance at your next item too; ” Lenni Brenner,Zionism in the age of Zionism”. I do admit it was only a glance but I am aware of such allegations from before. I think context is very important if one wants to discuss such issues. So while I don’t want to defend anyone, it needs to be said that some Zionist leaders during the mass murder of Jews by the Nazis were prepared to offer things to the Nazis in order to save some Jews. Was that appropriate? Maybe, maybe not. I don’t want to be the judge of that. But again, let’s assume they were 100% wrong. Even then, my above comment about punishing the guilty ones, applies.

            Now can you tell me why I am more dangerous than Bob? Or do you want me to read more.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Read ,and weep.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Read and weep”

            “The deeper you go down the rabbithole ,the uglier it gets,especially because the sources are fellow Jews.

            What now?

            Close your eyes and ears and march on like everything is fine?”

            I hear what you are saying shachalnur. No, like I said, the guilty have to be exposed and wherever possible punished. Even if the guilty ones are Jews who bear false witness for personal gain. We have those too, you know. And yes, like I said, we have our share of genuine misfits who committed and commit wrongs. No hard and fast rules, I tend to judge on a case by case basis and I judge by myself. I don’t jump on bandwagons just because some “name” suggests that I should.

            In the meanwhile, I also put things in perspective. I know that we have plenty of external enemies, like our friend here, Bob, who take snippets out of what we say about each other (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly) but they only choose the bad bits, and they proceed to magnify and exaggerate it then beat us over the head with it. I do know that those little petty haters, the many Bobs of this world, represent a genuine threat to us. We ignore them at our own peril. We know where that led to a mere 70 years or so ago when our grandparents were self satisfied about their prospects of assimilation into European society. Many of them got the rudest shock when the civilised Germans suddenly turned on their Jews. Even Jews who no longer considered themselves to be Jews because their grandparents converted to Christianity. What a shock that was to them that they were not even allowed to shed “their shame”, “Judaism” (their sentiments, not mine).

            And, shachalnur, here is some more perspective; as bad as we Jews/Zionists are, some of us at least, not you of course, many non Jews are bad too. Some are even way worse than our own worst. That of course isn’t an excuse for us, I am just saying it because we need to have proper perspective on things otherwise we may develop an almighty inferiority complex and that wouldn’t be good either. Come to think of it, I do think that some of us already did and that ain’t a good malady. It leads to depression and like in individuals, even to self harm.

            Anyway, Nuff said. I don’t want to rave on. I just wanted you too to mull on something while I do the homework that you gave me. I hope you don’t mind?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Jews are not bad.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Jews are not bad.
            Profound, Shachalnur, but I don’t think anyone’s saying that, literally ALL Jews are anything, either good, bad or indifferent. Just as is the case with the Hutus or the British. But we still say things like, “Oh, the Hutu massacre was terrible!” or “The British treated the blacks terribly”. We are allowed to use collective nouns, I think, where actions or events have been dictated by the leaders or representatives of that group, no? Except with the Jews, it seems. With Jews, we need to pick carefully between cases, making sure that we don’t offend some very delicate sensibilities. It’s ironic, really, that they get this exceptional treatment, considering how insensitive they are (I mean politically, as a group, under their democratic umbrella term) to anyone’s suffering but their own.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Jews are not bad.
            Profound, Shachalnur, but I don’t think anyone’s saying that, literally ALL Jews are anything, either good, bad or indifferent.”

            Really, Bob? Do yo know what happened to us in Europe just 70 years ago? Are you listening to even yourself in that racist rant of yours about us not having the morality of the goyim?

            Give me patience …

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            “Do yo know what happened to us in Europe just 70 years ago?”

            I wasn’t there, Tzutzik, and neither were you, although it wouldn’t surprise me to hear that you claim you were.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Fool.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            If Jews would really know “what happened to us 70 years ago”,we wouldn’t be in such a mess.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Exactly. Most of us don’t even know what happened to us last year, Shachulnar. Henry Ford is to blame. The mass production of newspapers set the bar for the mass production of misguided fools.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            I called this troll a fool because he just pretended that we don’t know that the holocaust happened because we were not there.

            You are ok with that Shachalnur? Because if you are, then I have nothing more to say to you too.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            My answers are at the bottom of the page.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            “You are ok with that Shachalnur? Because if you are, then I have nothing more to say to you too.”

            Oh, Tzutzik, if only we could believe you. Do you promise?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            I wasn’t talking to you Bob. But to you, I promise only one thing. If you keep on interrupting us adults, I will respond rudely. I don’t think you’ll mind. In fact, I think you enjoy it because you are a masochist. I don’t mind either. I like putting trolls like you down.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            @Shachalnur

            CONTEXT:

            Bob pretended that no one lumps all Jews under the one umbrella.

            I then reminded him that they DID lump all Jews under the one umbrella during the Holocaust. And he too in his racist rant lumped all of us under the one umbrella.

            Bob then claimed that none of us know that the holocaust happened because we were not there. And he ignored his own racist rant.

            Are you ok with that Shachalnur?

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Tzutzik, you sound like Ynet. That’s the scope of your thought. I won’t waste anymore time talking with you. You are a one-trick pony. Feel free to spew curse words and heap slander wherever you can’t contribute anything of worth. You are a disgrace to the Jewish people you claim to represent. Jews deserve better advocates than you. Give it up. Go flip burgers.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Why thank you Bob. Now you are offering people career advice? Do you think that’s why they visit this site?

            As for me representing the Jewish people? LOL. Given what you think of me, I suspect it proves another instance of your “alleged anti-Semitism”.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            “That’s all I wanted to hear from you.”

            You know, Tzutzik, even Jerry Seinfeld has rejected political correctness by now. You’ve got to move with the times, young man.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Nice soliloquy Bob. I hope you amused yourself with it. And maybe your own kind. As for normal decent people, they know who you are. A racist Nazi scum.

            I just know you wanted to hear that from me one more time. And you will hear it more if you want to.

            Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        Directrob,

        You are requesting comments to be removed based on your claim to be Dutch.

        Could you explain me,as a Dutchman, how you translate the word “sukkeltje” into a “personal attack”.

        It’s a harmless word used mostly by kids as a joke.

        And why do you want the whole discussion to be removed?

        Reply to Comment
        • directrob

          “Sukkel” is listed as an insult on the Dutch wiki (it implies someone is stupid). You better do not use it toward a policeman. (The word made it to the highest Dutch court 50/50 chance you have to pay)

          “Sukkeltje” is quite a bit worse than “sukkel”. Used towards an adult it implies very limited physical, intellectual and social capabilities. “Sukkel” can be used as a joke if a friend or college just did something extremely stupid. “Sukkeltje” is only safe towards children or close friends. You amplified “sukkeltje” with the rest of your text and suggested a permanent state of mind. You would never dare to call a policeman or a judge “sukkeltje”.

          I agree with the “Hoge Raad” (about sukkel) that it would be better not to use that word. It brings down the level of discussion.

          Ginger Eis’ reaction suggesting that you had sexual intercourse with your mother and that you should remove yourself from the discussion by dying (rotten is what a corps does) is of course over the top and a clear article 266 case, but given Tzutzik later similar reaction it is apparently acceptable at 972mag.

          I as a moderator would remove the discussion because of profanity, repeated insults and being largely off topic.I also see in the forum rules “Our policy regarding comments is minimal and fairly simple: avoid hateful tones and incitement. Personal insults, attacks, racism and profanity are unacceptable”. These rules are not only useful to protect a civil forum but also to protect the writers. These discussions remain on the net forever.

          Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            You would remove my comments for profanity and personal abuse. You mentioned me by name.

            But you would not ban Bob Wisby for profound racist comments and blood libels against an entire people? You certainly didn’t mention him by name.

            Nuff said, directrob. I got your number …

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Relax, Tzutzik, you’ve been given a reprieve. Don’t waste it. Behave yourself with a little decorum or it’s off into internet oblivion for you. The rules here aren’t just for Gentiles, you know?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Really, Bob?

            You know what? I don’t mind being banned. What I would mind though is if they would not ban you too with me.

            Anyway, we will see what happens, Bob. We will see …

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Directrob,

            Your wiki translation of “sukkel” is correct,your defintion of “sukkeltje” is unsourced,and you would send every elementary school and kindergarden kid to jail.

            What gives you away is you confuse “opdonderen” with “oprotten”(both mean a rude way to say “go away”),and translate “oprotten” with wishing someone dead.

            Only “rot weg”(rot away) would come close to that,but the word used was “opdonderen”.

            Looks like you got stuck in wiki and some translation app,a native speaker wouldn’t make such a mess of it.

            Could you tell me in Dutch what makes you want to behave like a klikspaan,boterspaan,and request ALL of my posts deleted?

            Are you protecting certain interests in Holland?

            Did the name “Joris Demmink” tick you off?

            Reply to Comment
          • directrob

            Shachalnur,
            Ouch, a crypto-insult, nice touch, but not my game …

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Crookedrob,

            You claim being Dutch,and demand all the information I gave on this page to be deleted,based on an alleged comment violation.

            Then you mess up the Dutch translation.

            I ask you why you snitch,make mistakes in Dutch translation,claim to be Dutch and if you represent certain interests in Holland and try to silence me.

            And you call that a crypto insult?

            So,what is your game?

            Reply to Comment
    9. bob wisby

      80 comments and counting. Come on, guys! Let’s make the century!

      Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        Multum,non multa.

        Reply to Comment
    10. bob wisby

      Vulgus vuit decepi

      Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        ….ergo decipiatur.

        Reply to Comment
        • shachalnur

          Did you know there is an independent nation that requested “The People” to be replaced by a foreign person.

          Requested their own enslavement?

          It’s all there,in your face,but there are none so blind as those who will not see.

          Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            No, you’ve lost me there, Shachulnar. But never mind that….we’ve broken the century! I’d just like to congratulate and thank all the wonderful posters who’ve brought this about.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            “Only barbarians are not curious about where they come from,how they came to be where they are,where they appear to be going,whether they wish to go there,and if so,why,and if not,why not.” (Isaiah Berlin).

            Only barbarians….and slaves.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            “Only barbarians….and slaves.”

            I would add to this list ‘happy, contented, prosperous people’. They also display very little curiosity on that score.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Mask slip,Farmerboy?

            Does it pay well?

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            I’m sorry, Shachalnur, but since you began commenting in riddles, I’m finding it difficult to follow your meaning. Where, for example, do your comments on barbarians and slaves etc, fit into this discussion? I may just be too dense to understand you, in which case, I’m sorry. You seem to be partially on the right track in your reading. I withhold my judgement however, as to whether you and Tzutzik share an office in Israel’s Ministry of Love.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Bob,

            Tzutzik and I obviously work in tandem against you.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            … meaning us filthy rich Jews right Bob?

            Because every good Nazi knows that ALL Jews are rich through ill gitten gains selling the organs of poor unsuspecting Goyim? Isn’t that what you said Bob?

            Reply to Comment
    11. Tzutzik

      @Shachalnur
      Before I even go near your counterpunch story (I had a quick look at it), I would like you to comment on this:

      CONTEXT:

      Bob pretended that no one lumps all Jews under the one umbrella.

      I then reminded him that they DID lump all Jews under the one umbrella during the Holocaust. And he too in his racist rant lumped all of us under the one umbrella.

      Bob then claimed that none of us know that the holocaust happened because we were not there. And he ignored his own racist rant.

      Are you ok with that Shachalnur?

      Reply to Comment
      • bob wisby

        You have to almost admire Tzutzik’s tenacity. He’s like a little Terrier once he gets his teeth into something. And he has cut down on his cursing and insults. Let’s give him a second reprieve folks. 5 marks for effort, little Tzutzik.

        Reply to Comment
        • Tzutzik

          Yes Bob and you are a pure blooded Aryan who married his mother in order to produce pure blooded Aryan offsprings.

          Keep up your trolling. You just help those of us who are more prone to be wishful thinkers to realise that the world has still not changed much and that if we want to survive, ultimately we can only rely on ourselves.

          But Bob, don’t take this as a thanks. I still consider you to be an idiot. And an unsubtle one at that.

          Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        Tzutzik,

        If you read Bob’s post carefully ,he’s stating you can’t know WHAT happened ,not THAT it happened.

        But that’s your fight with Bob,and you keep asking me for my opinion about him,so I’ll answer as honest as I can ,always sticking to the facts.

        My discussion with you is about very different matter,so don’t mix them up.

        My counterpunch story?

        These are articles by Lenni Brenner posted on counterpunch,amongst many other sites.

        And you should stay away from whatever you feel like.

        Did you like my question a few comments above this one?

        Reply to Comment
        • Tzutzik

          “If you read Bob’s post carefully ,he’s stating you can’t know WHAT happened ,not THAT it happened.”

          That’s a weasel answer Shachalnur and so is your answer that the “fight” between me and Bob is not your concern. The fact is that it is all interrelated. Bob is a Jew hater and a Jew baiter and he is not a lonely voice nor just a contemporary one.

          You on the other hand obsess about Zionism and Zionists and you are trying to tell me that Jews are not bad but Zionism is the albatross across our back and that it will cause the downfall of Judaism. Yet you don’t seem to care about the Bob’s of this world? Well … ok then, somehow your concern for our future sounds hollow.

          I was going to discuss your counterpunch article but now I don’t see the point. So long, Shachalnur.

          Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            Bob and I obviously work in tandem against you.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            That’s actually a very nice touch, Shachalnur. There’s me, the supposedly unreformed Luther-like figure, thundering my rabid anti-jewish sermons, and there’s Tzutzik, the rabid Revionist Zio/Fascist performing his racial duties, looking for subversive thoughts. And there’s you, Shachalnur, the cool-headed, chess playing enigma, standing between us as a kind of arbiter of good taste. You must have ice in your veins to manage that role. Does nothing move you, man?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Who cares Shachalnur? You probably don’t work in tandem. Bug the fact is that you now don’t come across as someone who genuinely cares about what happens to Judaism.

            Convince me that you do. There, that’s YOUR homework.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Oh, Tzutzik, haven’t you understood yet that Shachalnur is a gatekeeper? His job is to keep the discussion focused solely on zionism, as though that were the real problem.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Bob, you little Nazi, hasn’t your Nazi mother taught you how to put a sock in your mouth?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Bob,

            I hardly mention,and don’t care about, Zionism.

            Tzutzik,

            We disagree on what is the real threat to Judaism.

            You think it’s nuclear Iran,Arabs in general,Nazi’s ,anti-Semites,self-hating Jews,and the rest of the world.

            I think it’s something else.

            Why don’t you guys take a break and solve my riddle of The People that requested their own enslavement?

            I’m literally quoting wiki.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            But something else is beginning to bother me now, Shachalnur. You said this about the Holocaust which is one of the most well documented events of history.

            “If you read Bob’s post carefully ,he’s stating you can’t know WHAT happened ,not THAT it happened.”

            Yet, I detect cautious scepticism on your part about WHAT happened. On the other hand you gave me a reading list from obscure authors who have who knows what sorts of political motivations for their claims. And even though we were not there either to verify their claims, you seem to blindly accept what THEY say.

            Well then, Shachalnur, you can’t blame me if I find your position somewhat inconsistent.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            You’re confusing Bob’s opinions with mine.

            What I know about what happened in the Holocaust I know from my grandmother,since the other family members refused to speak,several other survivors and all other sources available to everybody else.

            What I think about the Holocaust,were millions of Jews were killed for being Jews ,and where I lost most of my family,is none of your bussiness.

            What I do is studying everybody that was connected to,and supported the people that perpetrated this crime,and many others during that period.

            I don’t care if they are Jews or non-Jews.

            And then you find out these people didn’t go away.

            Do you know anything about the “Kaiser Wilhelm Insitute of Anthropology,Human Heredity and Eugenics” and who supported this monstrosity?

            They are trying to do it again right now.

            And what you are doing,unwittingly I’m sure, is helping them.

            So is Bob.

            Therefore the riddle.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “You’re confusing Bob’s opinions with mine”

            You are right. But you contributed to my apparent mistake. You fed him a line which he seized as confirming his opinion that we don’t about know what happened in the holocaust. And when I asked you to clarify your position, you DID respond with what appeared to be a weasly response.

            “What I think about the Holocaust,were millions of Jews were killed for being Jews”

            That is a much more robust opinion which debunks Bob’s contention that Jews were not all put under the sane umbrella.

            “and where I lost most of my family,is none of your bussiness.”

            I did not ask you to tell me anything about your own familiy. I have my own family accounts too which will stay private.

            Now that we got this out of the way, I will give you my feedback about the counterpunch article in my next post.

            As for that mysterious riddle of yours in wiki about voulonteer slaves, I tried google but came up with nothing. You might want to improve your clue?

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Shachalnur, when you write…
            “What I think about the Holocaust,were millions of Jews were killed for being Jews”…you do realize that you leave yourself open to charges of agnosticism, which is a heresy in Tzutzik’s Church.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “you do realize that you leave yourself open to charges of agnosticism, which is a heresy in Tzutzik’s Church.”

            Oh Ye geds, Bob, do you realise how stupid you sound with your incessant chatter? Don’t you ever let up? Why are you obsessed with Jews? Go get a hobby .. Go play in traffic Bob … Do you enjoy being loathed and hated ? Or are you autistic and you don’t pick up on social cues?

            Here is an idea. There is a site called StormFront (or similar I am sure you are familiar with it). It has hundreds of petty little Nazis like you there. Why don’t you go there and wank yourself in unison with them about us, the Juden.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Yes, Shachalnur, we all know about Jewish involvement in eugenics. Isn’t that a bit tangential, though, to the present day discussion? Or are they still doing that stuff today in Israel? Hard to believe. Can you back your accusations up?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Bob,

            “We all know about Jewish involvement in Eugenics”

            I beg to differ,I think very few Jews know this,as most don’t even know what Eugenics is,where is came from,and who runs it..

            But once you really study the subject you will find out that general Jewish involvement in the top of the pyramid was rather small,and the ones that did are not considered Jews by many.

            What did happen though is that Jews were,and still are, willing executioners.

            I focus on the top of the pyramid,the ones that took over all US Universities around 1900 in the US by pumping huge amounts of money and “knowledge”,scientists and ideology into Eugenics and the Universiries.

            Who are/were these people,why are they still doing it,also in Israel ,and why are there parts of past and present Israeli governments collaborating so enthousiatically.

            Why did these Eugenicists support Hitler,and are still considered friends/supporters and collaborators with Israel and the Jews?

            Eugenics in Israel is alive and well,and I will give you some sources for this later,I’m gonna take the kids out to a soccer tournament.

            So ,who are the instigators and financers of all these Eugenics policies,what are they trying to do and who are the executioners?

            What is their connection to Judaism and why?

            And the most important question ,who is paying for all this and qui bono?

            “The People” requested to be replaced by one of the heads of this Scientific Dictatorship Control Grid,and as long as that is OK,we are all in trouble.

            Are Jews aware that the people that are part of the top of the Eugenics pyramid are the same people that enabled the creation of Israel and are still the owners of almost all the land in Israel?

            I’m sure they are not,and if they would ,it would change their opinion on who’s friend or enemy.

            out of time,later.

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Tzutzik, why are you so insecure about all this? You sound like someone with something to hide.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Bob

            Did anyone tell you that you need a brain transplant?

            I know a good fine upstanding German Doctor, a descendant of Dr Mengele, he specialises in brain transplants.

            In your case, I would recommend the brain of a tape worm as a replacement for yours. It would be an improvement to what you have now.

            Come to think of it, have you even got a brain? I am beginning to think that you had a lobotomy and you became just a talking head. LOL.

            Reply to Comment
    12. Tzutzik

      @Shachalnur
      I read your counterpunch article and the information that is presented there is not completely new to me. I came across at least some of it before.

      So here goes …

      1. I have no doubt that at least in the early days, at least some Zionists tried their luck with the Nazis. As they did with the Brits, the Americans, the Russians and way before that with the Ottoman Turks. In fact, with anyone whom they could get to listen and whom they thought could help the idea of Jewish self determination in our ancestral homeland …

      2. I also have no doubt that in hindsight, or even at the time, some of those discussions were ill conceived and even stupid. But hindsight is easy.

      3. The story about Haim Weitzman conceding that there is no solution to anti-Semitism till the Jews get out of Europe and live in their own state sounds very true. In fact, Herzl said much the same thing. Remember though that he was influenced by events such as the Dreyfus affair. And I think he actually had a point. Although, I now don’t believe that even if all Jews move to Israel, even then, anti-Semitism will not die. Unfortunately we have some very tenacious enemies and old habits die hard. Moreover, the war with the Arabs created even new recruits to their ranks. Millions of them … Oh well …. Cest lavie … such is life …

      4. One cannot lump all Zionists under the one umbrella. There were a myriad of ideas, some good, some bad, some stupid, some pragmatic and maybe even a few immoral ones by some of them. And there was internal strife between the different strands of Zionism. To the point that at times, the rivalry extended to lethal force. Look up the Altalena Affair in which Irgun fighters were gunned down by the Haganah unit which was commanded by none other than Yitzhak Rabin.

      5. Last but not least, Having said the above, I also believe that there is also a lot of propaganda, misinformation, misrepresentation and exaggerations being promulgated by various vested interests. By our enemies, by opportunists who see opportunities of fame, notoriety and fortune for themselves by beating up stories and even making up stories. There is a lot of mileage to be gained by making Israel and it’s founding fathers look bad. That is not to say that all the stories are lies but not all are gospel truth either.

      But you know what, Shachalnur? Unlike you, I am not going to drive myself mental by looking at every last nuance about what happened many decades ago. I do think we need to learn the lessons about both what went wrong and what went right morally and practically. We should learn from it by all means. It would be wrong not to. But it would be also wrong to overdo beating up on ourselves about things. We need to do things soberly and we need to apply what we learn for the future. All countries all peoples have skeletons in the closet we need not be in denial about it but we don’t need to exaggerate them either.

      Anyway nuff said …

      Reply to Comment
      • Tzutzik

        One more thing I forgot to add. A bit of perspective.

        The worst stories in that Counterpunch article were mainly about splinter groups not mainstream Zionists.

        Yes, Shamir and Begin much later became prime ministers but by then, at least Begin was a changed man. He was the one who signed a peace deal with Egypt’s Sadat which involved returning all of Sinai to Egypt. And Jabotinsky never even lived to see the creation of Israel.

        ALSO: One can criticise these various leaders mildly or harshly depending on one’s emotional state and politics but on one front most of them cannot be criticised. Whatever they did whether good, indifferent, stupid or immoral, they did with one motive in mind. To restore the self determination of the Jewish people and to allow us to become masters of our own destiny instead of objects of derision depending on the whim of many of those who hated us. And please do not claim that hatred of Jews did not exist before the advent of modern Zionism. That was one of the laughable implications of that Counterpunch article. It actually detracted from the credibility of the writer.

        Reply to Comment
      • bob wisby

        Tzutzik, you write: “Although, I now don’t believe that even if all Jews move to Israel, even then, anti-Semitism will not die.”

        It might work, Tzutzik, if they were forced to stay there.

        Reply to Comment
        • Tzutzik

          Thank you Bob for venting your real feelings about Jews.

          Also, thank you for giving up your silly attempt to try and present yourself as a Jew. You were never credible. You believe in stereotypes and you made yourself appear as a cartoon Jew. A cartoon straight out of Mein Kampf.

          Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            “You were never credible. You believe in stereotypes…”

            And of course, we all know that Jews never believe in stereotypes, don’t we? Seems we Jews are immune to pretty much all bad thoughts. Maybe that’s why the World hates us so?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            LOL Bob, you slipped …

            In your previous post you forgot about your silly charade to be a Jew and you referred to Jews as “they” not as “we”.

            But now you are back to pretending and referring to yourself as “we Jews”.

            You are pathetic Bob and what’s more, you yourself know that you are pathetic.

            How about that brain transplant idea that I suggested for you Bob? Interested?

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            English is obviously not your first language, Tzutzik. I can use either ‘we’ or ‘they’ to describe a group I belong to. If, for example, I want to distance myself from the behaviour of, say, human beings, I might say, “OH, humans, they are so disgusting etc” but if I want to include myself within that group, I would say “Oh, humans, aren’t we cuddly?” Do you see? Probably not.

            But you do seem far too hung up and obsessed about racial identity, if I may say so. Didn’t you know that humans are a mongrel species by now. All of us, Tzutzik, including you. So let’s drop this race-purity fascism that has so obviously enchanted you. It’s old hat. Just be a human, Tzutzik, not a Jew or Christian or Muslim human, but just a human. Join in. It’s not so bad.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Bob

            If YOU are human then I am not. I don’t want to be a gibbering twerp like you.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Tzutzik. I can use either ‘we’ or ‘they’ to describe a group I belong to.”

            Ok Bob, maybe I have been a bit hard on you. But if you are right above about the usage of ‘we’ or ‘they’ then tell me this: how come my uncle Mishah Brith Milah disagrees with you?

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Don’t know, Tzutzik. Is he a disagreeable sort generally? Some people will argue with a lamp-post.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Could it be because he is a prick like you, Bob?

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            “If YOU are human then I am not.”

            You said it, Tzutzik, not me.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            I was testing you Bob. You disagree with me about everything but not about my inhumanity.

            Did you pull that stunt because underneath it all you feel that Jews are not human?

            Reply to Comment
      • shachalnur

        Tzutzik

        These articles are just to show you how Eugenics works,that something stinks,that it exists.

        There’s hundreds articles ,books and proofs more; the Holocaust is part of Eugenics,the killing never stopped and is being accelerated right now,not just Jews ,all of us..

        The question is ,why are certain Jews collaborating with Eugenicists,and which part of Judaism is that?

        Why is the “Kaiser Wilhelm Institute” so important?

        And why did they never stop,even after WW2?

        And why are “the owners of 80% of the land in Israel” deeply involved in this,if not the top?

        Do you know they have plans for Israel as well,very old plans,and that they leave their actions and plans hidden in plain view?

        “The People that requested their own enslavement” is just one of the clues they left.

        By the time you see that one ,I’ll show you more,much more.

        Later,kids have soccer tournament.

        Reply to Comment
        • Tzutzik

          “The question is ,why are certain Jews collaborating with Eugenicists,and which part of Judaism is that?”

          That is a good question. What do you think the answer is?

          This bit is for Bob’s amusement. My own answer is by asking a question:

          Why were some Jews Capos? Why are some Jews today supporting the enemies of the Jewish people? Why is anybody, Jew or non Jew doing anything wrong?

          (Get it? Being a Jew, I answered a question with a question)

          My own answer is that there always were, there always are and I suspect (unfortunately) that there always will be some people who do wrongs.

          Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            “My own answer is that there always were, there always are and I suspect (unfortunately) that there always will be some people who do wrongs.”

            Which presupposes that everyone labels the same things as ‘wrongs’. This isn’t the case, I believe. From the perspective of the average householder, spraying k3000 in their kitchens is just keeping a clean environment, but from the perspective of the cockroaches, it’s an unprovoked, genocidal attack. The two sides involved cannot understand each other and so total war results. You may say, but we are all humans, we can communicate. But humans are even worse than animals in this regard. Our self-interests over-ride any ability we have to listen to the others’ point of view, our in-group demands loyalty above subtlety. So again, total war results. It’s one of the problems our species has to deal with. But hey, at least we have ice-cream and tv.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            ” You may say, but we are all humans, we can communicate. But humans are even worse than animals in this regard. Our self-interests over-ride any ability we have to listen to the others’ point of view,”

            And the moral of the story is, Bob?

            Drum roll ….

            That cockroaches have self interest too? How about Jews Bob? Do Jews have self interest? Or they are not allowed it?

            PS
            Notice how my English has improved Bob, I used ‘they’ NOT ‘we’. Are you impressed with me? Am I getting to be more human now Bob?

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            All living things have self-interests, I’d say. That’s not a problem until these interests are in conflict. An insect wants to feed off the kitchen floor, fair enough. He means me no harm. But from my point of view he’s a health hazard, so I pull out the k3000. Not in anger, Tzutzik, nor with hatred. But simply to preserve my environment. Does this make sense? There are no conspiracies between cockroaches to destroy my kitchen. They don’t need to conspire; it comes to them naturally.

            As to the Jewish people (remember to use the cuddly suffix), of course, as with all human groups, they must, by definition as living beings, have self-interests.

            Or do you think otherwise?

            And yes, your English is improving by leaps and bounds. Probably through exposure to my own!)

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Thank you Bob for your concise answer.

            And yes, I got your message loud and clear about the use of k3000 against the self interested cockroaches. I get your allusion of that to what you think should be done to us Jews.

            Or did I? Am I just slandering you again Bob? Is it all just my Jewish paranoia? In a funny way I would like to hear you say a YES to that question. So tell me Bob … O’ tell me please that you did not mean such a thing and that really you don’t want to cause us any harm …

            Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            “Am I just slandering you again Bob? Is it all just my Jewish paranoia?”

            Yes you are slandering me again and yes it is your Jewish paranoia. I used to be like that, until I grew up and traveled the World a bit.

            It’s kind of ironic that you’re so desperate to remain safe yourself while your (our) country blithely goes on killing non-Jews on a daily basis. I suppose at this stage of racist dementia, you no longer really think of Arab children as humans. Just as target practice, as they say in the Givati Brigade.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “… as they say in the Givati Brigade….”

            Pooh Ahhhh Bob, I impressed. So now you claim to have been a member of the Givati Brigade ….

            My my, man, you do get around don’t you?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Tzutzik,

            Why did 17 million Jews turn their backs on organized Judaism since 1945?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Well, I don’t necessarily agree with the 17 million figure. But let’s not quibble. The fact is that you could describe most of my family in that category. Having said that, we all identify ourselves as Jewish.

            There are a myriad of reasons for that split. I won’t mention all of them. But this is one of the recurring themes: after the Holocaust, many Jews lost their faith in religion. They could not comprehend how God could allow something like the Holocaust to happen. Yes, they understood the concept of divine punishment for sins. But they could no longer relate to a God that seemed to be so angry at millions of innocen Jewish children and babies.

            I am not one of the people who think like that Shachalnur. But you asked me a question and I am giving you one of many answers that people come up with.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            I beg to differ.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Ok. You beg to differ with what? What is your answer?

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Like your family,like my family,like most Jewsih families.

            Did you ask them,especially the survivors?

            Did they answer what you described?

            Did they feel abandoned by Hashem or by something else?

            Did they leave or were they pushed?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Did you ask them,especially the survivors?”

            Yes, some of them, no not all the millions of them.

            “Did they answer what you described?”

            Some did.

            “Did they feel abandoned by Hashem or by something else?”

            I think it was a case that many of them started to develop some doubts about Hashem who acts like that. I am not one of those but then again I think of Hashem not in a traditional way.

            “Did they leave or were they pushed?”

            Neither, I think. But there are no hard and fast rules. I think that mostly many people drifted away, some left abruptly and yes, some felt pushed away.

            But hey I am not an authority on this subject. You seem to have more definite ideas. Let’s hear them.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            I think there’s more going on.

            I’ll try to explain through articles.

            Rabbi Gedalya Lieberman represents the Ultra-Orthodox True Torah Jews.

            I’m a not Orthodox,but agree with his views from a religious point of view,and his allegations are correct.

            Article “The Role of Zionism in the Holocaust”.

            These objections existed from the start(1897) and the First World Zionist Congress planned in Munich had to be moved to Basel,Switzerland because of total rejection by German(and European)Jewry.

            About the really ugly stuff an essay by Anton Chaitkin,on Tetrahedron,Len Horowitz’ site

            “Rockefeller and massmurder”

            Slowly the connections will become clear.

            Ignore Bob,he’s here to mess up the commentboard,so nobody will read the comments.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Article “The Role of Zionism in the Holocaust”.

            I looked at that one shachalnur and it is most unimpressive. A lot of it is not dissimilar to the Counterpunch article but this one, if anything is worse. So I won’t repeat the comments that I already made regarding the Counterpunch article, I’ll just make the following supplementary comments:

            1. It has a number of internal inconsistencies –

            a) I don’t buy the assertion that Zionism was the cause of the holocaust. Jews were hated and persecuted in Europe way before the advent of modern Zionism. This assertion is in fact offensive because it assumes that the readers are gullible and ignorant.

            b) The article blames Zionists both for helping and for fighting Nazism. Give me a break, blame it for one or the other. They can’t have it both ways.

            2. I know for a fact that Zionists were actively involved in rescuing Jews during the Holocaust.

            3. Frankly, the destiny that this sect advocates for Jews would make me quit Judaism, period. If I would be forced to accept the lot that this sect advocates for Jews, I would not remain Jewish even if it would mean eternal damnation for me. I just can’t believe that God would want to be that cruel and uncaring towards us.

            4. Zionism is NOT racism. It is a national movement. We are a group of people tied together through ethnicity, culture/religion common history and language. It is not a crime to want to restore our nationhood and self determination. There are many other national movements who aspired exactly for the same things and nobody ever calls THEM racists.

            Anyway, I’ll stop here for now.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            I never said “this sect” is wrong or right.

            “this sect” is representing the opinion of almost all European Jews before the Holocaust,they warned before ,and are still warning.

            I’m only saying that it might be usefull to look at all Jewish opinions.

            “this sect” is the fastest growing segment in Judaism,where all other groups are losing Jews like crazy.

            They make 10 children per married couple,and then some.

            The only other segment of “Jews” that is showing growth are invented “Jews” from Russia,India,and South-America that don’t have a Jewish mother,and are being counted as Israeli “Jews” to make up the numbers.

            I predict Israel will use fast track conversions to enable every Zionist,to become “Jew”in iIsrael eventhough they have no Jewish mother,because even Israeli jews are leaving israel(one million and counting).

            Don’t underestimate the amount of US moviestars taking Kabbalah lessons…..barf.

            Next sunday/monday this same “sect” will fill up the streets of Jerusalem after the Israeli govt.has declared war on them,and that’s just the beginning.

            Also try to click the word “Zionism”on the homepage of truetorahjews and read more arguments,right or wrong.

            There’s an Israeli called Ruben Schossen,he became Cristian,allegedly,lives in Bolivia as a prisoner,allegedly,and has the Mossad after him, allegedly.

            And you know what ,I don’t care if his personal story is true,or if he became Cristian,there’s no one on the net that describes what is happening in Israel better than him,and it’s clear the guy is being ripped apart internally.

            To know what will start sunday/monday ,and what will follow and why,read”Sweet braveness; Haredi war on Zion starts on Monday” and “Ultra-Orthodox; “We will take revenge on Israel”.

            On a site called Roitov,there you can read stuff no Israeli paper will ever speak about..

            A brilliant (ex)Jew that got close to the bottom of the rabbithole and flipped,still there’s no better source of info on Israel,since Israeli MSM are controlled.

            Try Anton Chaitkin,that’s more important if you want to get an idea of what’s behind all this.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “I’m only saying that it might be usefull to look at all Jewish opinions.”

            Sure. I agree with you and here is this Jew’s opinion:

            Zionism is not the evil that is painted to be by some (a minority) of Jews today. It is a national liberation movement pure and simple. No different than the various national liberation movements that arose in other parts of the world, in Africa, in Asia and in the Middle East which arose to shake off oppression. We Jews too were oppressed and modern Zionism was our reaction to that oppression.

            So, Zionism is not bad. But it does not mean that some who call themselves as Zionists cannot and do not do bad things sometimes. Equally, some who are Zionists do many good things. I say the glass is more than half full. Some say, the glass is more than half empty because they concentrate on looking ONLY at the things that bad Zionists do. OK, that’s their opinion. They are entitled to it as I am entitled to mine.

            As for the dangers that Judaism faces today, Shakhalnur. How could I disagree with you? But tell me this: When O’ when in history were we Jews not facing existential dangers? I say we always did. And I say today too, we will just have to deal with the dangers as best as we can.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            I never said Zionism(The return of Jews to Israel) as an ideology is bad,but I’m not sure 1897 Zionism is good either.

            But that’s not the point.

            As to the dangers to Jews,which is my point;Did you read Anton Chaitkin?

            I’ll show you there’s a straight connection between the people he exposes and the Ringworm affair,the missing Yemeni babies, and other uncomfortable things in Israel.

            For 1897 Zionism to arrive in Israel the early Zionists had to accept support from some really ugly people,and everybody knew at the time.

            What makes you,and most Jews, think these people disappeared?

            Because the mainstream media never speaks about them?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “For 1897 Zionism to arrive in Israel the early Zionists had to accept support from some really ugly people,and everybody knew at the time.

            What makes you,and most Jews, think these people disappeared?

            Because the mainstream media never speaks about them?”

            I must admit, intuitively at least, the above rings to be true. So let’s accept it as fact.

            My position on it is that’s why we need to maintain a strong robust and functioning democracy with a free press that does it’s best to shine a light under every bed and dark corner and to scream as loudly as possible when they discover those dangerous people/groups who dabble in dangerous things.

            On the flip side though, let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water. We need to maintain perspective and remember that we face multiple dangers from multiple directions. Hey, we are still in the middle of a 100 year war with 400 million Arabs who have at least 1 billion automatic sympathisers in the Muslim world. And I won’t even mention the assorted extremists (both left wing and right wing ones) who hate us and wish us nothing but harm. We should do nothing to help those who wish us harm. Unfortunately, some of us sometimes don’t heed this and they do things that are tantamount to shooting ourselves in the foot.

            What I am saying is that we have a balancing act and we need to prioritise which issues represent the greatest dangers. It ain’t easy my friend. I don’t have a magic bullet and I don’t think anyone else does. As usual, we Jews have more ideas than our numbers. Let’s hope that we will end up getting as many of the most important things as right as possible. Will we get everything right? I for one doubt it. But let’s hope that we get most of the big issues right. But you are right, we do need to be vigilant.

            Reply to Comment
    13. bob wisby

      Shachalnur, sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. I’m not a big fan of those. I believe things work in a much more organic way. Another reason I don’t believe in conspiracies is that they nearly always involve the Jews, which I think gives too much credit to our famous intelligence, thus playing into the hands of our enemies, whoever they are.

      Reply to Comment
      • Tzutzik

        “Another reason I don’t believe in conspiracies is that they nearly always involve the Jews, which I think gives too much credit to our famous intelligence”

        What? Bob? … I tell you I am shocked … I am shocked to my core …

        You don’t believe in Jews being involved in conspiracy theories? What will your neighbours think? After all you will have to go home sometime from here. And then you will have to explain to them how come you let the team down and didn’t push yet another conspiracy theory against Jews when yo had the chance to? You WILL have to face the music …

        Ahhh, I know … you just don’t want to acknowledge “our famous intelligence” … nudge nudge wink wink gotcha …

        Reply to Comment
        • bob wisby

          It seems that whether I believe in conspiracy theories or not makes no difference to you. You seem determined to throw slanderous comments and make false accusations. Have you ever wondered how you became like this, Tzutzik? Who’s been feeding you with such hatred?

          Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            ” You seem determined to throw slanderous comments and make false accusations.”

            No Bob, I am not slandering you. Nor did I make false accusations. You did a great job of that yourself with your racist rant.

            You know the one? The one that I quoted to two people who also agreed with me that it was a racist rant. Yes, that was their reaction to YOUR OWN words. In fact till he saw YOUR OWN WORDS Shachalnur for one tended to disagree about my description of you. But once he read YOUR OWN WORDS he agreed with me that you uttered a racist rant. Go figure Bob …

            Reply to Comment
        • shachalnur

          No need to be surprised Tzutzik,it’s only Bob’s second mask slip.

          He’s a Farmerboy ,The Men in Red ; They won’t let you remember.

          He’s just doing his job.

          “There was one that tried to put me in a little triangle,but I said “No,No,No”. “(Amy Whinehouse z”l)

          What about Aaron Schwartz,Bob?

          “Does nothing move you, man?”

          “You can check out any time you like,but you can never leave”(The Eagles).

          Reply to Comment
          • bob wisby

            Shachalnur, you write more sense without the alcohol. Once you start typing out lyrics to some (admittedly great) classic songs, then you’ve drunk enough for one day.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            songs?

            Reply to Comment
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