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Don't be fooled: Bibi and Im Tirzu are one and the same

The latest campaign of incitement in Israel is so extreme even the Right has condemned it. The irony? Its message is entirely in line with that of the government.

Right-wing nationalists from the quasi-fascist group, Im Tirzu, protest as Palestinian citizens of Israel and their Jewish-Israeli supporters commemorate the Nakba at Tel Aviv University, May 11, 2014. (Activestills.org)

Right-wing nationalists from the quasi-fascist group, Im Tirzu, protest as Palestinian citizens of Israel and their Jewish-Israeli supporters commemorate the Nakba at Tel Aviv University, May 11, 2014. (Activestills.org)

A single day after right-wing Culture Minister Miri Regev proposed cutting funding to artists and cultural institutions that are “not loyal” to the State of Israel, quasi-fascist organization Im Tirzu launched a campaign to name and shame artists who support human rights and anti-occupation groups.

Several weeks ago, Im Tirzu, a hyper-nationalist organization that an Israeli court ruled resembles a fascist movement, launched another campaign accusing human rights and anti-occupation activists of being foreign planted “moles.” The current campaign, an extension of the first, is being promoted under the banner “moles in [our] culture.”

A number of political figures on the Right from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu down to Benny Begin and Naftali Bennett condemned the campaign, with some saying they oppose it and others going much further. “The singling out of so-called traitors is an old-fashioned fascist technique that is both ugly and dangerous,” veteran yet marginalized Likud lawmaker Benny Begin said.

Prime Minister Netanyahu said of the latest campaign, “[I] oppose the use of the term traitor for those who disagree with me, but at the same time oppose Breaking the Silence, which slanders Israel overseas.” Education Minister Bennett described Im Tirzu’s latest campaign as “embarrassing and unnecessary.”

Im Tirzu’s tactics went too far this time. But only its tactics. The content and sentiment of its messaging are entirely in line with that of the government.

Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked. (Photo by Activestills.org)

Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked. (Photo by Activestills.org)

When Im Tirzu first released its “moles” campaign it openly did so with the aim of shoring up support for Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked’s proposed law targeting foreign funding of human rights and anti-occupation groups. For the most part, the groups targeted by Im Tirzu are identical to those that would be affected by Shaked’s NGO funding law. (Disclosure: The non-profit that operates +972 Magazine and its Hebrew-language sister site, Local Call, was included in Im Tirzu’s “Moles” report. We would not, however, be affected by the current version of Shaked’s NGO bill.)

Now the organization has timed its latest report, about cultural figures associated with human rights and anti-occupation groups, with another piece of legislation that targets artists and cultural institutions that oppose various aspects of the ruling regime.

One might be tempted to applaud the leaders of Israel’s government, arguably the most right-wing in the country’s history, for condemning the McCarthyist tactics of an extra-parliamentary quasi-fascist organization. Those same leaders, however, continue to support the very policies that aim to delegitimize human rights groups as foreign agents and the artists who share their values as traitors.

And that is what is happening in Israel today.

There is a concerted effort by the Right, both within the government and in extra-parliamentary movements, to push the certain liberal values out of the acceptable political lexicon in Israel.

Left-wing activist Ezra Nawi is led into the Jerusalem Magistrate's Court, January 21, 2016. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Left-wing activist Ezra Nawi is led into the Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court, January 21, 2016. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

By putting disproportionate focus on the foreign funding of human rights groups, these right-wing actors are saying that human rights are alien to Israel’s set of values.

By threatening the funding of artists who oppose certain aspects of Israel’s regime, the government is saying that you cannot criticize the regime without consequences.

By comparing the “radical left” to terrorist elements in the right-wing settler movement, the government is saying that anti-occupation activities will not be tolerated, something we saw with the draconian treatment of Ezra Nawi, Guy Butovia and Nasser Nawaj’ah in recent weeks.

***

The legitimate political spaces for opposing the occupation from within Israeli society are rapidly shrinking. Opposition leader Isaac Herzog, leader of the Labor party often associated with Yitzhak Rabin’s peacemaking, declared this week that the two-state solution is not happening any time soon and has been trying to outflank Netanyahu from the right. The only remaining left-wing Zionist party in Israel, Meretz, hasn’t won more than six seats in the past 12 years.

Bad things happen when there is no room for dissent in a country’s politics. The opposition becomes weaker, the regime feels entitled enough to institute a tyranny of the majority (something Palestinians have fallen victim to since day one of Israel’s democracy), and political opponents become dissidents.

Those on the Right delegitimizing and ostracizing the home-grown “foreign moles” fighting the occupation are actually creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. For if it manages to eliminate the anti-occupation movement within Israeli politics and society, the world will stop deluding itself into believing that there’s a chance Israel can correct its own tragic trajectory. And when that happens, it’s a whole other game.

Update:
The following video of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu making a fundraising pitch for Im Tirzu in 2012 has been circulating on social media today.

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    COMMENTS

    1. Giora Me'ir

      There’s always a “but” with Netanyahu. Whose fascism is fairly evident.

      Reply to Comment
    2. Felixio

      I would say that what this guys are doing is pure Near East democracy and the funny thing of all is that they are proud of it.

      Reply to Comment
    3. Average American

      Um, doesn’t Israel take ALOT of money from a foreign government USA?

      Reply to Comment
    4. Bruce Gould

      “Moles”…”domestic affairs”…”traitors”…but here’s the rub: some people just think that human rights transcend borders. Here’s a mention of the latest Human Rights Watch report, in an editorial by Roger Cohen:

      “The situation was well-described in a Human Rights Watch report published this month: “On the one hand, Israel provides settlers, and in many cases settlement businesses, with land, water infrastructure, resources, and financial incentives to encourage the growth of settlements. On the other hand, Israel confiscates Palestinian land, forcibly displaces Palestinians, restricts their freedom of movement, precludes them from building in all but 1 percent of the area of the West Bank under Israeli administrative control, and strictly limits their access to water and electricity.”

      http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/opinion/israels-image-issue.html?_r=0

      Reply to Comment
    5. Ben

      Netanyahu has a strange definition of slander. Not one report of Breaking the Silence has ever been refuted. At the same time he feels free to actually slander the U.S. ambassador as “indifferent to Palestinian terrorism.”

      Ze’ev Sternhell on Breaking the Silence:

      “Now to the argument about washing our dirty laundry abroad. Today there are no more sealed laundromats; dirty laundry flutters in the breeze. Thus appealing to American Jews and European public opinion, including EU institutions, is inevitable and legitimate for two further reasons.

      First, the IDF punishes soldiers in only a tiny fraction of complaints it learns of, while ignoring the majority. Second, it’s currently impossible to attain tangible results in any issue pertaining to the occupation and the apartheid in the territories without external intervention. The army would be even more violent were it not for the fear of international sanctions.

      Indeed, since the nation doesn’t want to know and its leaders are either partners to the oppression or too pusillanimous – Isaac Herzog and Yair Lapid lead this camp – only externally imposed sanctions will break its repose. This is a historic role played by all the groups that oppose the occupation, and because of this they deserve our respect and strong support.”

      Reply to Comment
      • Gustav

        Who is demonstrating against the PLO for not even trying to negotiate peace, and sign a peace deal, let alone their refusal to amend their charter which still states that Israel is to be destroyed?

        Certainly not the holier than thou extreme lefties who are obviously in agreement with everything that the Arabs demand.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          Sternhell knows whereof he speaks and he is correct: “only externally imposed sanctions will break its repose.” Your endlessly repeated rationale for why Israel occupies the West Bank and gobbles ever more land and transfers ever more thousands of its civilian population into it is just not interesting. It flies in the face of the reasons openly stated by your entire government and cabinet. What is interesting at this stage is this process:
          http://972mag.com/the-end-of-normalcy-for-israeli-settlements/116422/

          Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            The extreme leftists are obsessed with Israel. They are never interested with what the Arabs have done to create the situation which we have and their refusal to at least contribute to solutions. According to extreme lefties, what the Arabs broke, Israel has to fix.

            PS
            The settlements are not illegal. They are on lands which Arabs never owned and they never had sovereignity over. Following the breeak-up of the British mandate, the Arabs started a war in which they wanted to make all the lands Arab lands. So the Jews of Palestine had just as much right to grab as much land as we could. That’s what happens in civil wars. The only way to end this is by negotiating peace terms and agreeing on borders. After that, land grabs would be illegal. But the Arabs refuse to negotiate and to sign a peace deal and the extreme lefties encourage their rejectionism.

            Reply to Comment
          • Susan

            Can the hasbara, Gus. We aren’t as delusional as you are.

            Your argument where Arabs have no ownership of land in the Mid East but the Brits do and were free to give it to who they like, is laughable.

            Europeans carving up land in another continent to give to other Europeans…you know what that’s called?

            COLONIALISM.

            Palestinians are currently living on 22% of what was their ancestral land and it continues shrinking because zealots from Brooklyn, Toronto, and Paris are encouraged to go build a settlement in the West Bank and steal more land, with Israeli approval. The world is getting tired of this bullshit and the Zionist claims that some real estate agent God promissed you land that isn’t yours.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            “Your argument where Arabs have no ownership of land in the Mid East but the Brits do and were free to give it to who they like, is laughable”

            Typical extreme leftie straw man argument.

            That is not what I said. Read again what I said.

            I love it when extreme lefties attribute their favorite position to us then proceed to knock down their red herring argument.

            You are not even worth arguing with. But if you persist, I will demonstrate to you too what a one eyed propagandist you are.

            Here is a clue. The Arabs had no sovereignity over this land for hundreds of years. Yes they lived here and so did we. So by what leftist hocus pocus magic was it more their land than ours? Jews were here before the Arabs. Not just according to the bible but according to historical and archeological evidence. So by what right do you people claim that these lands are solely owned by Arabs and Jews have no right to be here,???!!!

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            “Extreme leftists”

            This is a rhetorical trick. +972 in no way occupies a position on the left equivalent to the position on the right occupied by Im Tirtzu. Nor is it more “obsessed” with Israel than you are.

            “The only way to end this is by negotiating peace terms and agreeing on borders. After that, land grabs would be illegal.”

            Translation:

            “Lord, make land grabs illegal, only not just yet. Grant us, the latest grabbers, just this one more land grab, and then we’ll all call it quits. But not yet, Lord. And Lord, we gotta have Ariel. Put that down. Ok? Just to make it clear, Lord, we grab, then they agree to peace, then nobody gets to grab anymore. And don’t forget, Lord. No Ariel, no peace. You promised, Lord. Amen.”

            Reminds us of Augustine of Hippo’s teenage prayer: “Lord, grant me chastity and continence; but not yet.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Fact: the Arabs formally started this war in 1947. They acted vilently way before that.

            Why?

            Because they wanted to grab ALL the land from the river to the sea.

            Had they succeeded, this whole conflict would have been long forgotten by now. There would have been more dead Jews and all this land would have been Arab land and nobody would even bother about it because we Jews were always alone.

            But since, we won all the battles since 1947 and since the Arabs have lots of allies, everybody is demanding a “recount”. All the Arab allies, including the extreme left, claim that we grabbed too much land.

            Where is the fairness in all this?

            As I said, there never was a country called Palestine. And certainly not a sovereign Arab Palestine. The only Palestine that existed in the last few hundred years was initially a remote outpost of the ottoman empire which later became the British mandate. Both Jews and Arabs lived in Palestine so when the British mandate terminated, both Arabs and Jews were entitled to part of Palestine. The Arabs wanted to rob the Jews of all the lands so the Jews turned the table on them and we too grabbed as much of the land as we could. What’s unfair about that? Why can they try to grab all the land but we can’t? We are even willing to let them have a share of the land in return for a peace deal. They were not willing to let us have any of the land, they still don’t but we are the villains?

            I am sorry but the extreme lefties can bark all they like, I and most Israelis don’t feel like WE are the villains!

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Not interesting. “They started it.” Look, I know you believe this and it is what fuels your rock-ribbed sense of righteousness and stubbornness and nothing will change your mind. You also, however, want it to pass for some kind of accepted truth that “everybody knows.” That won’t happen because it is a half truth at the most. You both started it. You both have to end it. But your country won’t let them. Because it wants it all. What you Gustav the individual say you really want is not interesting. Your state, your government, in everything it does, shows that it is eager to grab all the land no matter how much suffering it causes. 22%, Gustav. Israel is begrudging them 22%. It refuses to take its hands off 22%. And grabs ever more of that 22%. The settlements are built on Palestinian owned land. That’s thievery.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            No Benny, we did not riot after UN GA Assembly Resolution 181 to partition of Palestine into a Jewish State and an Arab State was announced in 1947. We formally accepted the resolution. Your Arabs however rioted and rejected the resolution and as a consequence a civil war ensued. That same war is still with us today.

            No matter how often you want to blur this clear black and white bit of history you cannot change it Benny. It means that the Arabs started this war and we had no choice but to react to it. And no it does NOT mean that we both started it. I don’t know why you pretend not to understand this. Actually I do. You have a biased axe to grind.

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            Yes Bibi, oops Gustav, King of the Jews, who speaks for all Jews.

            If Israel would be put under UN mandate and the mandatory would allow Palestinians to return and they would publicly claim that they are coming to take over the country, “you” wouldn’t react violently.

            And if they later resorted to terrorism to drive out the UN to finally take over the country by force of arms while their leader claims that “compulsory transfer” is not immoral then, Gustav, “you” wouldn’t react violently. And if the the UNGA would recommend the partition of Israel giving 55% to its minority you would formally accept it and don’t start defend Israel from partition or the majority of its expulsion, cause “you” wouldn’t react violently. And if they started to take over more than this 55%, drive even more out and put all of “you” under martial law, “you” wouldn’t react violently. And if they started to take over the rest of Israel by force, expell even more of “you”, “you” wouldn’t react violently. And if they would start to demolish your house, arrest “your” children, kill members of “your” familiy, disposess “you” of “your” property, “you” wouldn’t react violently.

            Because “you” reject violence against others, too. “You” reject the violence that was needed to ensure building a national home against the will of the natives. You reject the violence, that led to the terrorism against the British and Arabs after the mandatory put an end to the idea of a Jewish state in 1939. You reject the violence that was needed to acquire territory beyond the partition plan after April 1948. “You” reject the violence that Jews chose to set up their state by force of arms after they rejected a truce proposal at the beginning of May 1948 which the Arabs accepted. “You” reject the violence, that led to the expulsion of Arabs. “You” reject the violence that was needed to prevent them to return. “You” reject the violence of putting them under martial law in Israel until 1966 and outside of Israel after 1967. “You” reject the violence of demolishing their homes. “You” reject the violence that is needed to steel their land. “You” reject the violence that is needed to build illegal settlements. “You” reject the violence that is needed to protect this illegal enterprise. “You” reject the violence that is needed to occupy them for nearly half a century.

            And therefore “you”, Gustav, Lamb of God and King of the Jews who speaks for all Jews expect them, to reject violence, too.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7 you have come out of the closet, haven’t you? So many lies, so many distortions…

            First, let’s get your first lie sorted. The Arabs are not native to Palestine. They come from the Arab peninsula as conquering invaders in the 6th century. We are the natives who were robbed by European clolonisers (the Romans) 2000 years ago. And we have returned to reclaim our ancestral lands.

            Second: some of us never left. A small number of us remained and kept our claim to this land alive. When the rest of us started filtering back in the mid 1800s, there were no more than about 350,000 people in Palestine some of them (a minority admittedly) was Jewish. The land was not under Arab sovereignity by then for hundreds of years. Are you saying that therefore Palestine was Arab land? By 1947, a third ofthe population of Palestine was Jewish. How does that make Palestine purely Arab land and negate the right of Jews to part of the land?

            I am king of the Jews, TB7? In that case, you are king of the Arabs. And you are a lying propagandist to boot.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Oh and TB7 admitted what I said all along. I said the Arabs started the war because they considered ALL the land between the river and the sea to be Arab lands. They still do.

            As for the other BS about us getting 55% of Palestine from the UN. You forgot to mention that 50% of that 55% was the Negev desert while the 45% which the Arabs got was fertile land.

            You also forgot to look at the map of the Middle East and North Africa. At around the time when Palestine was being partitioned by the UN, the Arabs were getting vast lands all over the Middle East by the colonial powers. The lands that the Jews were allocated represented less than 0.5% of the lands which were handed over to Arabs but even that was too much? There is only one way to describe their attitude. GREED!!!

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            Abraham was not a native of ‘Palestine’ (‘Canaan’), but a settler. So according to your logic it would be a lie and distortion that his descendants are natives. And the Arabs weren’t a wandering people. Their army conquered ‘Palestine’ and then they arabized its population.

            “Close to nine out of 10 Palestinians in the Land of Israel – Israel proper, Judea, Samaria and Gaza – have Jewish roots. In fact, he says, the percentage in Gaza is somewhat higher than 90 percent. Misinai is far from the first researcher to have stumbled upon this historical find. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, and the first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject.”
            http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews

            To argue that Jews who simply claim to be direct descendants of Jews who lived their 2000 years ago have a right to “return” to their “homeland”, but Palestinians which can prove that they actually lived there only 70 years ago and their proven descendants don’t, is just another supremacist double standard.

            You see, contrary to you I don’t even have to differentiate between Jews or Gentiles to make a point. What actually matters from a legal and civic point of view is the question, who was a former Ottoman subject habitually residing in the territory which became to be known as Palestine in mandate times and became “Palestinian”. Only they and their descendants had the right to determine Palestine’s future or its immigration policy. Not the settlers which were forced upon them against their will.

            And I never “admitted” that Arabs started a war. I claim that the vast majority of the citizens of Palestine tried to defend the territorial integrity of the country and their own expulsion against separatists and their terrorists organisations. The majority of the people of Palestine only wanted the country to be released into independence since pre mandate times. To achieve this they did not need to acquire any territory or to become its majority by war or expulsion.

            I never claimed that Jews did “get” 55% by the UN. The UN only did not partition Paletine, but only RECOMMENDED it and that 55% should be allocated to the state of the Jews. But the separatists including their terrorist organisations even took 77% of it by force of arms and acquired a Jewish majority only by expulsion which they uphold until today for the same reasons they commited it.

            And nobody did “get” land in the Middle East or Africa either. Everybody actually lived on the land and was entitled to it, if one applies the post colonial right to self determination which belongs to the legal habitants of a territory and not to colonial settlers with a certain ethnicity or faith. The latter concept is just bogus.

            I called you “King of the Jews”, because you (like Bibi) claim to represent all Jews and always write “we” and “us”. I never spoke for anybody else or used the words “we” or “us”.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”Abraham was not a native of ‘Palestine’ (‘Canaan’), but a settler.”

            Oh goodie. I was talking about historical and archeological evidence which verify that this was a sovereign Jewish country 2000 years ago and he drags the bible into it…

            TB7:”So according to your logic it would be a lie and distortion that his descendants are natives.”

            Really? You and logic are an oxymoron. You don’t know the first thing about logic.

            TB7:”And the Arabs weren’t a wandering people. Their army conquered ‘Palestine’ and then they arabized its population.
            “Close to nine out of 10 Palestinians in the Land of Israel – Israel proper, Judea, Samaria and Gaza – have Jewish roots. In fact, he says, the percentage in Gaza is somewhat higher than 90 percent.”

            Ok, so the Arabic speaking Muslims are Jews but we the Hebrew speaking Jews are non Jews. That’s your logic?

            TB7:”Misinai is far from the first researcher to have stumbled upon this historical find. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, and the first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject.”
            http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews

            Now listen to this, TB7. It may be true that some of the Palestinian Arabs are descendants of Jews who were forced to be Arabised/Islamicised by the conquering Arab armies. What the percentage is, nobody can be certain of. But your argument is totally irrelevant because….

            I and most Israelis don’t advocate that they have no right to be here. We advocate that those who are already Israeli citizens can remain to be part of Israel (if they want to conform to our laws). The rest can live in a Palestinian Arab state which can be established after they sign a peace deal with us.

            You, TB7 on the other hand advocate that we the Hebrew speaking Jews are strangers who have no right to be here. That as I said before makes you perverse.

            TO BE CONTINUED

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”To argue that Jews who simply claim to be direct descendants of Jews who lived their 2000 years ago have a right to “return” to their “homeland”, but Palestinians which can prove that they actually lived there only 70 years ago and their proven descendants don’t, is just another supremacist double standard.”

            Straw man alert…

            I was not arguing that Arabs have no right to be here. I’ll say it again. Arabs who are Israeli citizens can continue to live in Israel so long as they are willing to abide by our laws.

            Arabs who live in the WB can continue to live there but not in Israel because no one in their right mind would be willing to allow enemies who have been trying to destroy them to allow them to live amongst them. We are no exception. We won’t allow it. They can live in their own country which is Palestine.

            Nor will we allow Palestinian Arabs who fled to Arab countries to live amongst us for the same reason. They too can live in Arab Palestine or continue to live in Arab countries in place of the Jews whom those Arab countries kicked out.

            TB7:”You see, contrary to you I don’t even have to differentiate between Jews or Gentiles to make a point. What actually matters from a legal and civic point of view is the question, who was a former Ottoman subject habitually residing in the territory which became to be known as Palestine in mandate times and became “Palestinian”. Only they and their descendants had the right to determine Palestine’s future or its immigration policy. Not the settlers which were forced upon them against their will.”

            You are not even aware of it, TB7, but I have been making lotsa progress with you.

            1. You admitted that your Palestinian Arabs were the first to resort to violence against the Jews of Palestine. Your justification that they had the right to do it because they just defended their country is BS and that brings us to your second admission…

            2. You also admit that the land of Palestine was once a sovereign Jewish country, way before the Arab invaders arrived.

            In 1947, a third of Palestine’s population was Jewish and for hundreds of years it was no longer part of a sovereign Arab empire. It was a colony of a foreign empire which was being given independence. As such, there is nothing wrong with the concept of dividing up the land between the two dominant ethnic groups (Arabs and Jews) who lived there. That is exactly what happened in the Indian sub continent around the same time where the Muslims who were about 12% of the Indian population, ended up getting Pakistan when India was partitioned.

            TO BE CONTINUED…

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            Gustav: “Really?”

            Sure. According to your logic it would be a lie and distortion that Abrahams descendants are natives, because you claim that the descendents of Arabs are not natives in Palestine.

            Gustav: “Ok, so the Arabic speaking Muslims are Jews but we the Hebrew speaking Jews are non Jews. That’s your logic?”

            Are you really this stupid, Gustav, to suggest that this is what I wrote?

            Gustav: “I and most Israelis don’t advocate that they have no right to be here.”

            You mean the ones you dont’t keep expelled.

            Gustav: “You, TB7 on the other hand advocate that we the Hebrew speaking Jews are strangers who have no right to be here. That as I said before makes you perverse.”

            No, that’s just one of your countless perversed lies about what I wrote.

            TB7:”To argue that Jews who simply claim to be direct descendants of Jews who lived their 2000 years ago have a right to “return” to their “homeland”, but Palestinians which can prove that they actually lived there only 70 years ago and their proven descendants don’t, is just another supremacist double standard.”

            Gustav: “Straw man alert…

            I was not arguing that Arabs have no right to be here.”

            Straw man alert. Try to adress what I wrote, Gustav.

            Gustav: “Arabs who live in the WB can continue to live there but not in Israel because no one in their right mind would be willing to allow enemies who have been trying to destroy them to allow them to live amongst them.”

            Where’s your prove that someone who fled tried to destroy Jews? Where’s your prove that someone who wants to return wants to destroy Jews? That’s just pure racist incitement from your side. Just count the number of expellees, the massacres and the destruction of villages to realize who was destroying not only the territorial integrity of Palestine, but also its society.

            Gustav: “Your justification that they had the right to do it because they just defended their country is BS …”

            No, its not BS and that’s the reason why you never answer the question how Jews would react, if the minority in Israel had the intention to partition the land by force and how you would call it.

            Gustav: “It was a colony of a foreign empire …”

            You need mandated Palestine to be a colony to justify its colonialization and division. But Palestine was not a colony, it was a state under mandate which means you are not only historically, but also morally wrong.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Gustav: “Really?”

            TB7:”Sure. According to your logic…”

            Really?

            Gustav: “Ok, so the Arabic speaking Muslims are Jews but we the Hebrew speaking Jews are non Jews. That’s your logic?”

            TB7:”Are you really this stupid, Gustav, to suggest that this is what I wrote?”

            And this moron is complaining about personal attacks. Yes, that’s how what you wrote came across. Go back and read what YOU wrote.

            Gustav: “I and most Israelis don’t advocate that they have no right to be here.”

            TB7:You mean the ones you dont’t keep expelled.”

            I already told you what I mean.

            Gustav: “You, TB7 on the other hand advocate that we the Hebrew speaking Jews are strangers who have no right to be here. That as I said before makes you perverse.”

            TB7:”No, that’s just one of your countless perversed lies about what I wrote.”

            Really? Didn’t you question the rights of Jews to return to this land from which European colonizers chased us out 2000 years ago?

            TO BE CONTINUED….

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”To argue that Jews who simply claim to be direct descendants of Jews who lived their 2000 years ago have a right to “return” to their “homeland”, but Palestinians which can prove that they actually lived there only 70 years ago and their proven descendants don’t, is just another supremacist double standard.”

            Gustav: “Straw man alert…

            I was not arguing that Arabs have no right to be here.”

            Straw man alert. Try to adress what I wrote, Gustav.

            I did. I can’t help your comprehension problems. We have no problems with Arabs living in Palestine. Some of them, about 1.2 million even live in Israel. You and your Arabs are the ones who question our rights to have returned here nearly 200 years ago. So who is being greedy and intransigent?

            Gustav: “Arabs who live in the WB can continue to live there but not in Israel because no one in their right mind would be willing to allow enemies who have been trying to destroy them to allow them to live amongst them.”

            TB7:”Where’s your prove that someone who fled tried to destroy Jews? Where’s your prove that someone who wants to return wants to destroy Jews? That’s just pure racist incitement from your side.”

            Where is my proof, you puffed up arrogant little propagandist? My proof is the accumulated dead and maimed Israelis who were murdered or maimed by your Arabs even before there was occupation.

            TB7:”Just count the number of expellees, the massacres and the destruction of villages to realize who was destroying not only the territorial integrity of Palestine, but also its society.”

            Yea, and your Arabs were just innocent litle lambs who did nothing against Jews? Whatever happened to them, they brought upon themselves. The problem with Zionists is that we fight back. I mean that’s a problem for those who try to harm us.

            Gustav: “Your justification that they had the right to do it because they just defended their country is BS …”

            TB7:”No, its not BS and that’s the reason why you never answer the question how Jews would react, if the minority in Israel had the intention to partition the land by force and how you would call it.”

            Now you are making a laughing stock of yourself, Benny, oops TB7. Tell me this…

            What was your reaction to Liberman when he actually proposed that the Arab communities in the Galilee should become part of the proposed Palestinian Arab state? In effect he proposed to do the very thing that you ask me to respond about. Yet you guys called him a racist for proposing it.

            It just shows you. There is no pleasing you lot. So we will no longer even try. Sharon’s evacuation of 10,000 Jews from Gaza was the last time. That taught us a lesson we will never forget. No more.

            Gustav: “It was a colony of a foreign empire …”

            TB7:”You need mandated Palestine to be a colony to justify its colonialization and division. But Palestine was not a colony, it was a state under mandate which means you are not only historically, but also morally wrong.”

            No, you are the one who is morally and legally wrong. You seem to think that somehow Israel needs to keep to higher standards than the rest of the world. The partition, secession or whatever else you like to call it, of India/Pakistan, Kosovo and the separation of Eastern Palestine (Jordan) from the rest of Palestine gives us ample reason to be confident that what happened here was no more wrong than what happened in those places.

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            Gustav: “Really?”

            Yes, Gustav, really. The descendants of the settler Abraham are not natives in this land, if you claim that the descendants of Arabs are neither.

            Gustav: “And this moron is complaining about personal attacks. Go back and read what YOU wrote.”

            Says this moron, who spreads lies about what I wrote to personlly attack me. Where did I write “the Hebrew speaking Jews are non Jews” (YOUR words)?!

            Gustav: “I already told you what I mean.”

            Yes, you mean Israeli Arabs. Arabs who Israel doesn’t keep expelled and denationalized. How nice of you.

            Gustav: “Didn’t you question the rights of Jews to return to this land from which European colonizers chased us out 2000 years ago?”

            See? You were lying again. I never wrote that “Jews are strangers who have no right to BE here.” I constantly argue that I don’t make a difference between the rights of Jewish or Arab Palestinians, since they were all citizens of Palestine. Now you changed your question, but my answer is undifferentiated again: An immigration of settlers forced upon the natives is a violation of their fundamental rights and pure colonialism.

            Gustav: “I did.”

            No you didn’t. I wrote about your double standard to claim that Jews who simply claim to be direct descendants of Jews who lived their 2000 years ago have a right to “return” to their “homeland”, but Palestinians which can prove that they actually lived there only 70 years ago and their proven descendants don’t.

            Your answer: “I was not arguing that Arabs have no right to be here.” Sure, you weren’t, but this straw man was not the point of issue, but the double standard you want to distract from.

            Gustav: “Where is my proof, you puffed up arrogant little propagandist?”

            Exactly, where is your proof that Arabs who HAD FLED (therefore had not fought) tried to destroy the Jews or that they still want to destroy Jews? You are just making a racist assumption, you puffed up arrogant and racist propagandist. Do you even know that the Palestininian Arabs were dimilitarized after their revolt in the 1930s and only a few of them could even afford having a weapon before? Do you really think that farmers could afford weapons?

            “Yea, and your Arabs were just innocent litle lambs who did nothing against Jews?”

            See? You are doing it again, Gustav. You go from one extreme to accusing me of the other.

            Gustav: “Whatever happened to them, they brought upon themselves.”

            Wow, that’s exactly what antisemites say about violence towards Jews.

            Gustav: “Tell me this…”

            No, answer the question you continously trying to avoid, because it reveals you double standard:
            How would Jews would react, if the minority in Israel had the intention to partition the land by force and how would you call it? Defence or starting a war?

            Gustav:: “You seem to think that somehow Israel needs to keep to higher standards than the rest of the world.”

            Nope. My standards are written without making a difference between Jews/Israel and others. Your standard isn’t.

            Gustav: “The partition, secession or whatever else you like to call it, of India/Pakistan, …”

            Bad example. Enforced by Britain on a British colony.

            Gustav: “… Kosovo …”

            Rofl. Israel doesn’t even recognize Kosovo. But Kosovo is a very good example, but not to make your case. It was colonialized by Serbs who expelled its inhabitants. Get it? And in Kosovo everybody who was habitually residing in the region Kosovo became ipso facto Kosovarian. That’s also different to Israel. And there are even more differences which should be discussed in a smaller response.

            Gustav: “and the separation of Eastern Palestine (Jordan)”

            There was neither an “Eastern Palestine”, nor a “seperation”.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Jordan_memorandum

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”Yes, Gustav, really. The descendants of the settler Abraham are not natives in this land, if you claim that the descendants of Arabs are neither.”

            Let it be noted that TB7 is the one who insists that the Bible is the point of discussion. I mentioned historic and archaelogical proof that this land was a sovereign Jewish kingdom way before the Arabs set foot here.

            But I have nothing against the Bible which verifies the same thing.

            Yet TB7’s convoluted logic is that the Arabs are natives. But if I dispute his claim then he is prepared to change tack and claim that we are not natives either.

            Okey dokey, TB7, let’s have it your way. Neither Jews or Arabs are natives. So what exactly is your point? That in spite of being here we should just be nice little Jews and hand everything over to the Arabs and allow them to rule over us? What’s in it for us in doing that? More pogroms? More massacres?

            I’ll tell you what, if you feel self destructive, why don’t you throw YOURSELF under the bus? Stop telling us to do the equivalent.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”Says this moron, who spreads lies about what I wrote to personlly attack me. Where did I write “the Hebrew speaking Jews are non Jews” (YOUR words)?!”

            LOL. Where did you say it? You said it in this post above. Look it up…

            “Abraham was not a native of ‘Palestine’ (‘Canaan’), but a settler. So according to your logic it would be a lie and distortion that his descendants are natives. And the Arabs weren’t a wandering people. Their army conquered ‘Palestine’ and then they arabized its population.”

            There is more in that post of yours. You didn’t mean what I attributed to you? Then what DID you mean?

            Gustav: “Didn’t you question the rights of Jews to return to this land from which European colonizers chased us out 2000 years ago?”

            TB7:”See? You were lying again. I never wrote that “Jews are strangers who have no right to BE here.”

            Yes you did. You questioned our right to return to our ancestral homeland. You essentially objected to us buying land here and establishing our own state in part of the British Mandated territory. You said that if that was our intention, we had no right to come here.

            TB7:”I constantly argue that I don’t make a difference between the rights of Jewish or Arab Palestinians, since they were all citizens of Palestine.”

            But in reality you DO. You have no problems with us living amongst Arabs as a persecuted minority. You only find your voice and yell at US if we don’t treat the Arabs who try to screw us as equals.

            TB7:”An immigration of settlers forced upon the natives is a violation of their fundamental rights and pure colonialism.”

            See? There you go again. You claim that the Arabs who are descendants of invaders are natives but we the descendants of the Jews who had a Jewish kingdom here for 4000 years are not natives.

            Yet you admitted (before) that there was a Jewish kingdom here and you asserted without a shred of proof that most of those Arabs were actually Arabized Jews.

            You tie yourself up in tangles and then you complain when I ridicule you, TB7.

            TO BE CONTINUED…

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            GUSTAV:“I was not arguing that Arabs have no right to be here.”

            TB7:”Sure, you weren’t, but this straw man was not the point of issue, but the double standard you want to distract from.”

            Huh? Should I even bother to respond to this non argument? Nah.

            TB7:”Exactly, where is your proof that Arabs who HAD FLED (therefore had not fought) tried to destroy the Jews or that they still want to destroy Jews?

            Yawn. The Arabs attacked the Jews indiscriminately after UN resolution 181 was announced. The Jews retaliated and civil war ensued.

            Lotsa dead and maimed bodies on both sides but you want us to pick out only the Arab fighters and refuse them to live amongst us? Are you daft? How does one do that? The war turned into a guerilla war. Anyone of them could be a fighter but the two peoples were at war. In no other conflict between two protagonists are the sides expected to try to treat SOME on the other side without suspicion. This nonsense is only expected of us. Are you people serious? When one or two of us wander into Ramallah by accident without armed escort, the Arabs lynch us. But we have to let millions of them to come and live amongst us?

            TB7:”You are just making a racist assumption, you puffed up arrogant and racist propagandist.”

            And you are an idiot for even arguing this point. Any non biased person will look at you as a crazy man. But you are far from that. I’ll stop here, I won’t call you names because it is pointless.

            TO BE CONTINUED…

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”Do you even know that the Palestininian Arabs were dimilitarized after their revolt in the 1930s and only a few of them could even afford having a weapon before? Do you really think that farmers could afford weapons?”

            Yes I do know that those Arabs suffered from the British as a result of their revolt. I also know that they murdered any Jew they could lay their hand on during the revolt of the 1930s.

            GUSTAV:“Yea, and your Arabs were just innocent litle lambs who did nothing against Jews?”

            TB7:”See? You are doing it again, Gustav. You go from one extreme to accusing me of the other.”

            What am I doing again? When do you ever condemn ANY atrocity which Arabs commit? Show me the money. I’d love you to show me. I’m waiting…

            Gustav: “Whatever happened to them, they brought upon themselves.”

            TB7:”Wow, that’s exactly what antisemites say about violence towards Jews.”

            Really? So you are saying that we attack Arabs who never attack us?

            Gustav: “Tell me this…”

            TB7:”No”

            Suit yourself.

            TB7:”answer the question you continously trying to avoid, because it reveals you double standard:
            How would Jews would react, if the minority in Israel had the intention to partition the land by force and how would you call it? Defence or starting a war?”

            I have already answered it. Don’t you read my posts? HINT: Liberman’s proposal. He proposed that a fair section of Israeli Arabs in the Galil, together with their lands and assets, should come under the jurisdiction of the proposed Arab state. Yet you guys and the Arabs called him a racist. Yawn.

            Gustav:: “You seem to think that somehow Israel needs to keep to higher standards than the rest of the world.”

            TB7:”Nope. My standards are written without making a difference between Jews/Israel and others. Your standard isn’t.”

            You are sloganeering again. Everything you say and do smacks of double standards. Nothing short of angelic Israel would satisfy you and when we turn out to be less than angelic, like the rest of humanity, you call us devil incarnates. When we then protest and remind you that we only do what anyone else ACTUALLY did in our shoes, you just dismiss and ridicule our claim. Therefore, we ignore the opinions of people like you. That then irks you more. Funny in a weird kinda way…

            Gustav: “The partition, secession or whatever else you like to call it, of India/Pakistan, …”

            TB7:Bad example. Enforced by Britain on a British colony.”

            That’s the best you can do? But you haven’t answered my question. Here it is again…

            So I take it you consider Pakistan to be an illegal state that should allow itself to come under Indian rule?

            Gustav: “… Kosovo …”

            TB7:”Rofl. Israel doesn’t even recognize Kosovo. But Kosovo is a very good example, but not to make your case. It was colonialized by Serbs who expelled its inhabitants. Get it?”

            Yep, I get it. The Muslims are always right. Non Muslims are always wrong according to you. But hey, the Serbs were in the majority. Doesn’t that matter to you in the same way that you keep on bringing it up against us?

            TB7:”And in Kosovo everybody who was habitually residing in the region Kosovo became ipso facto Kosovarian.”

            No they didn’t. Lotsa Serbs were expelled and fled for their lives. What about them?

            TB7:”That’s also different to Israel. And there are even more differences which should be discussed in a smaller response.”

            Yea I know. When it comes to Israel your standards are always different.

            Gustav: “and the separation of Eastern Palestine (Jordan)”

            TB7:”There was neither an “Eastern Palestine”, nor a “seperation”.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Jordan_memorandum

            LOL. Suddenly what the Brits did was lawful according to you? Not very consistent are you?

            What about the fact that what is now Jordan was part of Palestine under Ottoman rule. It was formally known as Eastern Palestine.

            Then along came the Brits, they arbitrarily separated Eastern Palestine from the rest of Palestine and gave it to The Arabs.

            How is that different to what they proposed to do with Israel? Why were the borders of the rest of Palestine more sacroscant than the borders of Palestine which included Eastern Palestine?

            Reply to Comment
          • TB7

            Gustav: “Let it be noted that …”

            … I won’t respond longer to your pathetic lies about what I wrote. I stopped counting at seven.

            The bible doesn’t verify anything. The academic question is, if the bible can be verified.

            The descendants of the people who were arabized by Arabs are natives of Palestine. And:
            “Close to nine out of 10 Palestinians in the Land of Israel – Israel proper, Judea, Samaria and Gaza – have Jewish roots. In fact, he says, the percentage in Gaza is somewhat higher than 90 percent. Misinai is far from the first researcher to have stumbled upon this historical find. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, and the first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject.”
            http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews

            Where was the hostility towards Jews before Zionists decided to choose to turn the whole of Palestine into a Jewish state? The mandate didn’t include a Jewish state or a Jewish right to it. Churchill made very clear to the Zionists that they either accept this or the mandate would not come into effect. And btw., everyone has the right to immigrate into a country and purchase land as long as the people of the country (or its majority) approve this,but not if this policy is enforced upon them.

            It’s quite laughable that you only have a problem with the mandatory’s policies, when he acted in accordance with the mandate regarding Transjordan because of a clause that was confirmed by the League of Nations, and which prevented an enforced immigration upon the inhabitants and later allowed to recognize their rights to self determination. Only a colonial mindset would argue that a mandatory “gave” land he never possessed to the people who did possess it. Or that Palestinians wanted to “get” all of Palestine as if it wasn’t theirs allready. But the only rights you know are the ones you literally claim to be “Jewish rights”.

            You claim that the Arabs attacked the Jews indiscriminately after UN resolution 181 was announced, but you choose to ignore the Jewish terrorism in the decade before and the structural violence which was needed to enforce the mandate upon the people of Palestine. And you continue to avoid answer the question how would Jews would react, if the Arab minority in Israel had the intention to partition the land by force and if you would call this defence or starting a war. Because my question exposes your double standard when you accuse the Arabs of having started a war in 1947/48.

            You accusation that Palestinian refugees as such would be hostile towards Israel is just blatant racism. Your racist claim doesn’t consider the possibility that Palestinians (or their direct descendants) want to return to the homeland they experienced in their own life time, but claim that Jews on the other hand would have the right to ‘return’ without proving anything, not even the mythical exile which even according to Israeli historians can’t be verified at all (except the deportation of Jewish elites by Romans) and is just another of your double standards. Everyone has the right to return to his country as long as he can prove that he’s a refugees or that he is a descendant of a refugee. You can’t.

            You claim that I don’t condem Arab atrocities, but it is you who denies Jewish atrocities. I neither endorse crimes against minorities nor crimes to become or maintain to be a majority and any form of direct or post facto ethnic cleansing. But you do the latter.

            Kosovo never had to expell anyone or keep them expelled for national reasons or for any group within Kosovo to become and maintain to be a majority. Your comparisons to Israel are ridiculous as is the fact that you don’t want to answer the question, why Israel of all countries doesn’t even recognize Kosovo. Why should anybody in return even recognize Israel, if Israel has no problem to recognize Kosovo?

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Gustav: “Let it be noted that …”

            TB7:”… I won’t respond longer to your pathetic lies about what I wrote. I stopped counting at seven.The bible doesn’t verify anything. The academic question is, if the bible can be verified.”

            Again, let it be known that I was not the first to refer to the Bible as proof that we had a Jewish kingdom in Palestine before the Arabs were even heard of. There is ample historical and archaelogical evidence which verifies this.

            TB7:”The descendants of the people who were arabized by Arabs are natives of Palestine. And:
            “Close to nine out of 10 Palestinians in the Land of Israel – Israel proper, Judea, Samaria and Gaza – have Jewish roots. In fact, he says, the percentage in Gaza is somewhat higher than 90 percent.”

            Those are theories my dear propagandist buddy. It is impossible to verify the percentages to that degree of accuracy.

            In any case, similar research proves that we too are descendants of people who lived in this part of the world yet you call us colonizers. Why?! After all we also practice the same religion as our ancestors did, we speak the same language, Hebrew, which we kept alive for 2000 years and we maintain the same culture. And we can trace our history back to Roman times which is when we were forced to flee.

            Moreover. Like I said before. We are not advocating exile for Palestinian Arabs, they can live here. Just not in the same country as us. They and YOU on the other hand call US colonizers. You don’t perceive your own double standard, TB7?! Are you really this thick?!

            TB7:”Where was the hostility towards Jews before Zionists decided to choose to turn the whole of Palestine into a Jewish state?”

            Everywhere, buddy. Where have you been all your life? Now you are gonna deny the history of persecution of the Jewish people? It did not exist just in Europe. It existed in Arab lands too and yes it existed in Palestine too. Are you going to deny it?!

            TB7:”The mandate didn’t include a Jewish state or a Jewish right to it. Churchill made very clear to the Zionists that they either accept this or the mandate would not come into effect.”

            You are wrong. Churchill was very sympathetic to the Zionist cause. But in any case, you are losing me. The fact is that we are here. And we would not have been here had the Ottoman Turks and later the Brits wanted to seriously stop us. Moreover, the UN recommended the two state solution which we agreed to but your Arabs rejected but the UN recommended an illegality? Your Arabs are the sole arbiters of that and the majority of the world was wrong?

            Ok let’s pretend that even that is so (I am really stretching it for you now old buddy). Even then, what do you want us to do? Fall down in a heap? Start pounding our chest and line up in repentance to be executed by Hamas?

            LOL, it just ain’t gonny happen, little buddy. Our so called sins pale into insignificance compared to what some of the sins which most “civilized people committed not all that long ago. And that includes the Arab peoples. Just look at what they are doing to each other in our neighborhood even today.

            So please, TB7, just go away. Or stay if you want but be aware that I will never tire of telling you our side of the story. So please feel free to repeat yourself as often as you want…

            TO BE CONTINUED

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            CONTINUED FROM BEFORE….

            TB7:”And btw., everyone has the right to immigrate into a country and purchase land as long as the people of the country (or its majority) approve this…”

            Correction old buddy. Your sentence should read

            “…..provided that the purchasers comply with the prevailing laws of the land”.

            Spot the difference?

            TB7:”It’s quite laughable that you only have a problem with the mandatory’s policies, when he acted in accordance with the mandate regarding Transjordan because of a clause that was confirmed by the League of Nations,”

            Excuse me?! You are ranting and raving again. I have no problems with the fact that Jordan, or as it was previously known as Eastern Palestine, was detached from the rest of Palestine.

            But using your logic, you should have a problem with it. For the same reason that you have problems with partitioning Western Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. The fact that you haven’t got a problem with it makes you a hypocrite.

            TB7:”Or that Palestinians wanted to “get” all of Palestine as if it wasn’t theirs allready.”

            Sigh…

            Again, there were two major ethnic groups in Palestine, Jews and Arabs. Option one which is what you advocate would have given ALL of Palestine to the Arabs and at best, we would have been third class citizens under their rule or at worst we would have been exiled or dead. That means that one ethnic group, us, would have ended up with nothing, zero, nil, zip, nada!

            Option two which we agreed to and which the UN recommended involved two states. One Arab majority state one Jewish majority state. Why was that less fair than your option?!

            TB7:”But the only rights you know are the ones you literally claim to be “Jewish rights”.

            LOL. You are projecting again.

            TB7:”You claim that the Arabs attacked the Jews indiscriminately after UN resolution 181 was announced, but you choose to ignore the Jewish terrorism in the decade before and the structural violence which was needed to enforce the mandate upon the people of Palestine.”

            Nope, first there was Arab violence and terrorism against Jews. Read up on the Hebron massacre of Jews in 1929 and the Arab revolt which even you mentioned. Then followed Jewish terror too. And then things escalated into a full fledged regional conflict in 1948 after your Arabs rioted following the announcement of UN resolution 181.

            TO BE CONTINUED….

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            TB7:”And you continue to avoid answer the question how would Jews would react, if the Arab minority in Israel had the intention to partition the land by force …. ”

            I have already answered it. Don’t you read my posts? HINT: Liberman’s proposal. He proposed that a fair section of Israeli Arabs in the Galil, together with their lands and assets, should come under the jurisdiction of the proposed Arab state. Yet you guys and the Arabs called him a racist. Yawn.

            TB7:”You accusation that Palestinian refugees as such would be hostile towards Israel is just blatant racism.”

            Boooooring. We covered this too before….

            My answer again: If a group of people declare war on another group of people, then each side treats ALL the members of the other group as an enemy.

            Or are you claiming that the Western democracies allowed Germans and Japanese to immigrate to America during the war? Or even after the war in very large numbers (in their millions)? The whole idea is laughable. You are making a fool of yourself by laboring this idea, TB7.

            TB7:”but claim that Jews on the other hand would have the right to ‘return’ without proving anything”

            Prove it to whom, buddy? To ourselves? We are here. We returned. The rulers of the land nearly 200 years ago allowed us to return. Unlike other invaders, like the Arabs, we wanted to settle the land peacefully and work it. Ok, at the end we too had to resort to the sword because the descendants of invaders refused to share the land which had room for both of us. But you are crying? Okey dokey…

            TB7:”not even the mythical exile which even according to Israeli historians can’t be verified at all (except the deportation of Jewish elites by Romans) and is just another of your double standards. Everyone has the right to return to his country as long as he can prove that he’s a refugees or that he is a descendant of a refugee. You can’t.”

            LOL, see TB7? Again here you are questioning our Jewish descent while elsewhere you tried to claim they as many as 90% of Palestinian Arabs are really of Jewish descent. So let me ridicule you again…

            …according to you, the Arabic speaking Muslims are really Jews but we who held onto our Jewish religion, culture and language are impostors. You are a funny little man, TB7, aren’t you? LOL.

            TB7:”You claim that I don’t condem Arab atrocities, but it is you who denies Jewish atrocities.”

            If you say so…

            TB7:”I neither endorse crimes against minorities nor crimes to become or maintain to be a majority and any form of direct or post facto ethnic cleansing. But you do the latter.”

            You endorse those crimes continually TB7 by insisting that the old order of keeping Jews a minority must be maintained, knowing full well that we were subjected to unspeakable horrors as minorities.

            TB7:”Kosovo never had to expell anyone or keep them expelled for national reasons or for any group within Kosovo to become and maintain to be a majority.”

            I am glad you are putting it that way and use the words “had to”. But they did. Thousands of Serbs fled Kosovo because they feared for their lives.

            TB7:”Your comparisons to Israel are ridiculous …”

            Why is my comparison ridiculous? Because in the case of Kosovo, a minority Muslim population seceded from a majority non Muslim population? That is Halal for you? But Jews are not allowed to separate from a majority Muslim population? What is the difference?

            For the record. Because I am consistent, I have no problems with the Muslims of Kosovo saparation in the same way that I am in favor of the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab Muslim state.

            You on the other hand support Muslim separation from non Muslim majorities as in Kosovo and Pakistan. But you oppose Jewish separating from a Muslim majority. That makes you a hypocrite with double standards.

            TB7:”as is the fact that you don’t want to answer the question, why Israel of all countries doesn’t even recognize Kosovo.”

            Again, I did answer it…

            Does Kosovo recognize Israel?

            TB7:”Why should anybody in return even recognize Israel, if Israel has no problem to recognize Kosovo?”

            Whoever recognizes us, good. Whoever doesn’t recognize us, we don’t care. We don’t need anyones recognition to know that we exist and that we will continue to exist.

            The Palestinian Arabs are an exception though. So long as they refuse to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, we know that they are not willing to give up their existential war against us. So why exactly should we make ANY concessions to them?

            Reply to Comment
          • tb7

            Gustav: Again, let it be known that I was not the first to refer to the Bible as proof …”

            That wasn’t even the point of issue, but your double standards who is a native to Palestine and who isn’t.

            Gustav: Those are theories my dear propagandist buddy.

            That’s not my propaganda and it is quite revealing that you don’t quote the rest:
            “Misinai is far from the first researcher to have stumbled upon this historical find. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, and the first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject.”

            Gustav: “In any case, similar research proves that we too are descendants of people who lived in this part of the world yet you call us colonizers.”

            And the stupid lies continue …

            Again: I call ANYONE a colonist who immigrates UNDER THE PROTECTION OF A POWER THAT ENFORCES IMMIGRATION UPON THE PEOPLE OF A COUNTRY.

            And it is quite ridiculous to even claim that Jews as such are only descendants of Jews who “lived” only THERE and only they have an automatic right to return after 2000 [!] years and still consider them to be “natives””. No historian whether Jewish or not takes the myth of an exile (and return) even seriously.

            Gustav: “We are not advocating exile for Palestinian Arabs, they can live here. Just not in the same country as us.”

            Rofl. ‘You’ even keep the majority of them expelled to maintain a Jewish majority, Gustav, King of the Jews who speaks for all Jews. And that is not advocating the exile of their majority?

            Gustav: “Are you going to deny it?!”

            I was asking you about the hostility towards Jews as Jews living in what became mandated Palestine, before Zionists decided to choose to turn the whole of Palestine into a Jewish state.

            Gustav: “You are wrong.”

            Nope: “Indeed, the British White Paper of June 1922 – the first document that officially clarified the interpretation of the Mandate’s text – pointed out that the Balfour Declaration does “not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded ‘in Palestine’”. Zionist consent to such interpretation was requested, and received, before the Mandate was confirmed in July 1922. In the words of Israel’s first President, Chaim Weizmann: “It was made clear to us that confirmation of the Mandate would be conditional on our acceptance of the policy as interpreted in the White Paper [of 1922], and my colleagues and I therefore had to accept it, which we did, though not without some qualms”.
            https://www.aspeninstitute.it/aspenia-online/article/between-past-and-present-israel%E2%80%99s-internal-debates

            Gustav: “Moreover, the UN recommended the two state solution which we agreed …”

            I allready proved that the Jewish Agency (Ben Gurion) saw partition only as a step to future expansion.

            Gustav: “…provided that the purchasers comply with the prevailing laws of the land”. Spot the difference?”

            Sure. I argue that the prevailing laws of the land should be the result of the consent amongst its people. You support laws which are the result of colonial oppression. At least as long it is on behalf of Zionist interests.

            Gustav: “… or as it was previously known as Eastern Palestine …”

            Previously know as? Rofl.It’s only used by Zionist propagandists who either argue that Jordan is Palestine or that the mandatory’s policy regarding the Emirate of Transjordan was a violation of the mandate. You can’t even use the correct term.

            Gustav: “But using your logic, you should have a problem with it. For the same reason that you have problems with partitioning Western Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.”

            It isn’t the “same logic”, because this was not a partition and especially not against the consent of the majority of the people concerned.

            Gustav: “Again, there were two major ethnic groups in Palestine, Jews and Arabs.”

            No, there was one minor group called Jews and a major group called Arabs. And I don’t consider a group to be ethnic, if one can become a member by conversion.

            Gustav: “Option one which is what you advocate would have given ALL of Palestine to the Arabs …”

            Again, there was noone to “give” Palestine to its citizens. All of Palestine was allready the land of its citizens. Your colonial mindset just can’t comprehend this.

            Gustav: “… and at best, we would have been third class citizens under their rule …”

            Who says that? The UN could have made sure that Palestine could have become an example of equality, because of this situation. The fact is that Arabs became third class citizens in Israel.

            Gustav: “LOL. You are projecting again.”

            You specifically used the term “Jewish rights” regarding a right to create a Jewish state within Palestine.

            Gustav: “Nope, first …”

            I don’t deny that innocent Jews were attacked after Zionists declared war on Palestine by expressing their aim to convert it into a Jewish state. The point of issue is that violence didn’t start after resolution 181, but that Jewish terrorism was a systematic use of violence to achieve Zionist goals after the mandatory ended the Zionist dreams in 1939.

            Gustav: “I have already answered it.”

            ROFL. You even have to shorten my question, because you keep avoiding answering its most important part. That’s what I wrote:
            “And you continue to avoid answer the question how would Jews would react, if the Arab minority in Israel had the intention to partition the land by force AND IF YOU WOULD CALL THIS DEFENCE OR STARTING A WAR.”

            Keep avoiding it Gustav. Your double standards is allready clear enough.

            Gustav: “My answer again: If a group of people declare war on another group of people, then each side treats ALL the members of the other group as an enemy.”

            That maybe the case of the leaders of this group, but not necesserely its members. And it is completely different from your original claim which implies that Arab refugees ARE hostile towards Israel or ARE its sworn enemies. Another problem with your comparison two WW2 is that we are not talking about immigration, but repatriation. And we all know that the real reason is that Israel has to keep them expelled simply for demographic reasons, because Jews never were a real majority. They are not even ‘now’ in the whole of ‘Palestine’, allthough claiming 80% of it, according to statistics of 2015.

            Gustav: “We are here.”

            Creating facts on the ground does not prove a right. The Jews which immigrated into this region in the last 150 years weren’t born there or became citizens by being children of parents who were citizens. A right to return for someone that simply claims to be a descendant of someone else who allegedly lived there thousands of years ago is an absolut ludicrous concept. Especially if one denies the right of return for refugees and there descendanrts who can prove that they actually were citizens in this area.

            Gustav: “Again here you are questioning our Jewish descent while elsewhere you tried to claim they as many as 90% of Palestinian Arabs are really of Jewish descent. So let me ridicule you again… …according to you, the Arabic speaking Muslims are really Jews but we who held onto our Jewish religion, culture and language are impostors. You are a funny little man, TB7, aren’t you? LOL.”

            No Gustav, you are a pathetic liar. I never claimed that Jews are imposters. And being the funny little man that you are you seem to have problems with simple set theory.

            If someone claims that 90% of Arabs are descendants of Jews who lived in this region that doesn’t mean that they are the ONLY descendants and everybody else who claims the same is an imposter. But Jews did not only live in this regions and one does not only become a Jew by being a descendant. Reada about the history of Jewish Proselytism outside of this territory and later mass conversions.

            Gustav: “You endorse those crimes continually TB7 by insisting that the old order of keeping Jews a minority must be maintained …”

            Another lie. I don’t have any problem with any group becoming a majority by birth or by legal immigration which is not enforced upon the majority. It’s you who insists that the Zionist order of Palestinian Arabs as a minority must be maintained in 80% of Palestine, if not more.

            Gustav: “Thousands of Serbs fled Kosovo because they feared for their lives.”

            But Kosovo didn’t need anybody to expell to achieve a certain majority expell or doesn’t need to keep anybody expelled to maintain a certain majority. Otherwise that would be Apartheid, too.

            Gustav: “Why is my comparison ridiculous?”

            First of all your approach is racist. The heritage or faith of those involved in secession and/or partition is absolutely irrelevant. Vtw. there are Jews who are also Arabs and there are Arabs who are Christians.

            Secondly. Your lying seems to be compulsive.

            I never said anything about the legitimacy or illegitimacy of Kosovo’s secession. But if one wants to make a moral case than one has to argue along the line that their fundamental rights were violated by the Serbian goverment. That wasn’t the case of the Jews in mandated Palestine, but the case of the Arabs in Israel who were made to live under military law until 1966.

            I never made a statement about the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the partition of India. The question in that case would be, what India’s attittude towards partition was.

            Gustav: “Does Kosovo recognize Israel?”

            The Kosovarians even went to Israel to aks for the recognition of Kosovo.

            Gustav: “So why exactly should we make ANY concessions to them?”

            Rofl. What concessions? What do ‘you’, Gustav, King of the Jews who speaks for all Jews actually own by right and not by might? Certainly not a single inch in the occupied state of Palestine. So what do ‘you’ actually have to offer what belongs to you by internationa law? More of the same chutzpah?

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Ok Benny, oops TB7, let’s just start with debunking your first lie…

            TB7:”The dhimmi status was abandoned in the Ottoman empire long ago and the co-existence between Arabs and Jews in Palestine was undermined after the publication of the Balfour declaration of war on behalf of Zionists who even asked for the reconstitution of Palestine as “the” Jewish national home.”

            But here is what the reality was for Jews in Palestine. Read an article written in 1854 by none other than Karl Marx about the Jews of Jerusalem circa 1854. Note, that was way before Herzl published his Zionist manifesto. The article clearly outlines the wretched conditions of the Jews of Jerusalem and how they were oppressed by Muslims. Here, read it for yourself, TB7…

            https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm

            “The sedentary population of Jerusalem numbers about 15,500 souls, of whom 4,000 are Mussulmans and 8,000 Jews. The Mussulmans, forming about a fourth part of the whole, and consisting of Turks, Arabs and Moors, are, of course, the masters in every respect, as they are in no way affected with the weakness of their Government at Constantinople. Nothing equals the misery and the sufferings of the Jews at Jerusalem, inhabiting the most filthy quarter of the town, called hareth-el-yahoud, the quarter of dirt, between the Zion and the Moriah, where their synagogues are situated – the constant objects of Mussulman oppression and intolerance”

            I can’t wait to see what lies you’ll come up with to explain away the above.

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            Gustav: Those are theories my dear propagandist buddy.

            TB7:”That’s not my propaganda and it is quite revealing that you don’t quote the rest:

            It is propaganda that 90% of Palestinian Arabs have Jewish ancestry. There is simply no way of determining percentages to that level of accuracy. Are you going to stand there and tell me with a straight face that 100% of them supplied DNA samples? No? Then all those claims are just theories.

            Gustav: “In any case, similar research proves that we too are descendants of people who lived in this part of the world yet you call us colonizers.”

            TB7:”And the stupid lies continue”

            Sigh, how does one argue with a bigot who has a closed mind?

            Here, look at this…

            “Recent studies have been conducted on a large number of genes homologous chromosomes or autosomes (all chromosomes except chromosomes X and Y). A 2009 study was able to genetically identify individuals with full or partial Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.[3] In August 2012, Dr. Harry Ostrer in his book Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People,summarized his and other work in genetics of the last 20 years, and concluded that all major Jewish groups share a common Middle Eastern origin. Ostrer also claimed to have refuted any large-scale genetic contribution from the Turkic Khazars.”

            It seems TB7 laps up everything that confirms his bias for Arabs but is sceptical about anything that proves Jewish claims.

            He finds it easier to believe that Arabic speaking Muslims have predominantly Jewish ancestry while he is sceptical that people who kept their Jewish religion, culture and language are descendants of the ancient Israelites.

            TO BE CONTINUED…

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            CONTINUED FROM BEFORE…

            TB7:”Again: I call ANYONE a colonist who immigrates UNDER THE PROTECTION OF A POWER THAT ENFORCES IMMIGRATION UPON THE PEOPLE OF A COUNTRY.”

            There he goes again with the word “enforced”. Nah, there was nothing forced about Jewish immigration. Jews returned to our ancestral homeland willingly and in accordance with the laws of the land at the time.

            Arabs by their millions are descending on Europe. Many Europeans oppose this but so long as they are not in power, they cannot stop it. So Arab immigration to Europe is not enforced either so long as the elected suthorities allow it.

            TB7:”And it is quite ridiculous to even claim that Jews as such are only descendants of Jews who “lived” only THERE and only they have an automatic right to return after 2000 [!] years and still consider them to be “natives””.

            Descendants of natives. Just as an Australian Aborigienees or American Indians whose parents may have been exiled from Australia or America, would be recognized as descendants of natives of their respective lands. Do you deny that?

            TB7:”No historian whether Jewish or not takes the myth of an exile (and return) even seriously. ”

            A typical sweeping statement. I beg to differ. Lotsa people did and do. My evidence is that we are here. We could not have done it completely on our own.

            Gustav: “We are not advocating exile for Palestinian Arabs, they can live here. Just not in the same country as us.”

            TB7:”Rofl. ‘You’ even keep the majority of them expelled to maintain a Jewish majority, Gustav, King of the Jews who speaks for all Jews. And that is not advocating the exile of their majority?”

            Yes. Because…

            1. They made war on us.

            2. Because we accepted even a greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

            You cannot turn the clock back. But we still have 1.2 million Arab citizens. How many Jews remain in Arab countries?

            Gustav: “Are you going to deny it?!”

            TB7:”I was asking you about the hostility towards Jews as Jews living in what became mandated Palestine, before Zionists decided to choose to turn the whole of Palestine into a Jewish state.”

            Look at my post immediately after your last post it gives you your answer. Are you going to deny that too?

            TO BE CONTINUED…

            Reply to Comment
          • Gustav

            CONTINUED FROM BEFORE…

            Nope: “Indeed, the British White Paper of June 1922 – the first document that officially clarified the interpretation of the Mandate’s text – pointed out that the Balfour Declaration does “not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home…”

            Straw man alert. TB7 pretends that Israel insists that all of Palestine is ours. We accepted the UN partition plan remember? It was your Arabs who insisted that all of Palestine should be under Arab control. Why are you projecting what they openly said and attempted to do on us? Most of them still say the same so why are you projecting Arab attitudes on us?

            Gustav: “Moreover, the UN recommended the two state solution which we agreed …”

            TB7:”I allready proved that the Jewish Agency (Ben Gurion) saw partition only as a step to future expansion.”

            You proved nothing except your bias and that you lap up propaganda and lies.

            Gustav: “…provided that the purchasers comply with the prevailing laws of the land”. Spot the difference?”

            TB7:”Sure. I argue that the prevailing laws of the land should be the result of the consent amongst its people. You support laws which are the result of colonial oppression. At least as long it is on behalf of Zionist interests.”

            You forgot to mention Arab colonialism and oppression. Did Arabs listen to the locals? Or did they enforce their will on them? This is the way the world is. We live in it too and we suffered from it. So what do you want us to do? Everywhere we went to after the European power of Rome rendered us homeless we were treated as strangers and persecuted but you want us to give up our right to return to our ancestral homeland just so you can say to us how nice we are? (As if haters like you ever would). Get real. We tried to do it in a fairly reasonable way, through migration and by buying lands. The country was virtually empty when we first started our return in the mid 1800s but you expected us to say…

            Oy vey we can’t return coz the Arabs don’t like it? Well f&@%k them. They can like it or lump it. Our return wasn’t as bloody as their conquest of this land in the sixth century and their subsequent wars to keep it. And it could have been even less bloody if they would not have resisted our return and if they would have been willing to share this land.

            Gustav: “… or as it was previously known as Eastern Palestine …”

            TB7:”Previously know as? Rofl.It’s only used by Zionist propagandists who either argue that Jordan is Palestine or that the mandatory’s policy regarding the Emirate of Transjordan was a violation of the mandate. You can’t even use the correct term.”

            Ok Benny, umm, er, ah, TB7, here is another reference which proves that YOU are the liar!

            http://www.dlir.org/archive/items/show/9

            Note how he describes the exploration of the land eastbof the Jordan river which he calls Eastern Palestine.

            TO BE CONTINUED…

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