+972 Magazine's Stories of the Week

Directly In Your Inbox

Analysis News
Visit our Hebrew site, "Local Call" , in partnership with Just Vision.

'Let us fight together for human rights, for a country that is democratic for all its citizens'

Ahmed Abu Artema, one of the organizers of the Great Return March in Gaza, responds to Israeli conscientious objector Hillel Garmi, who said his decision to refuse the draft is partly inspired by Artema’s acts of civil disobedience.

By Ahmed Abu Artema

Gaza protesters seen during the Great Return March demonstrations at the border with Israel, June 8, 2018. (Activestills.org)

Gaza protesters seen during the Great Return March demonstrations at the border with Israel, June 8, 2018. (Activestills.org)

Thank you, Hillel. You gave us hope.

The morality of a position is not measured by how closely it reflects popular opinion, but by its unique advantage. Throughout history, those who did not compromise their morals were the ones who carried more weight and inspired others, even if they were alone to confront mainstream perspectives. When a person decides to take an ethical stand, they fulfill their human calling and reconcile with the reason we were born into this universe, even if it comes at the cost of their personal comfort.

Dear Hillel, I read your letter and listened to your recording on YouTube. You sparked a feeling of hope in my heart, that there is a foundation on which to create a more just and humane reality between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea – a reality that does not derive its legitimacy based on the number of people who believe it can be accomplished at the moment, but because it is more feasible and closer to the values of justice and equality, and is based on respecting humans, rather than disqualifying them.

Your decision is what will help end this dark period inflicted on Palestinians, and at the same time mitigate the fears of younger Israeli generations who were born into a complicated situation and a turbulent geographical area deprived of security and peace.

Palestinians do not seek to drive Israelis into the sea, and Israelis cannot ignore the fact that there are more than 10 million Palestinians who still dream of the day they will live in freedom, and return to the homes they were forcible removed from in 1948. We can choose between two options, and there is no third: either we agree on a compromise based on a shared existence in accordance with human rights and equality, or we continue with this state of instability for 70 more years.

Palestinian children play in a car that, according to witnesses, was damaged during a seven-week Israeli offensive in Khuza'a, east of Khan Younis, in the southern Gaza Strip, on Oct. 19, 2014. (Abed Rahim Khatib/Flash90)

Palestinian children play in a car that, according to witnesses, was damaged during a seven-week Israeli offensive in Khuza’a, east of Khan Younis, in the southern Gaza Strip, on Oct. 19, 2014. (Abed Rahim Khatib/Flash90)

Dear Hillel, I grew up in the Gaza Strip, where my grandfather sought refuge after he was forcibly displaced from his hometown, Ramleh. I envy your ability to visit Ramleh with ease, while I have not been able to make it across the Beit Hanoun crossing even once in my life. Already from a young age, I was a witness to Israeli soldiers firing live rounds at my neighbors and relatives, arresting them, demolishing their houses, and imposing curfews that would imprison us in our own homes for days, sometimes for as long as two months.

When I grew up, the violence intensified: the houses were no longer destroyed by bulldozers but by F-16-dropped bombs, the casualty count rose from hundreds to thousands, and tanks replaced [army] jeeps. In 2005 [following Israel’s disengagement from Gaza], the Israeli military redeployed around the strip, tightened the siege, and closed all the crossings, preventing Palestinians from moving freely by land, sea and air. In the following years, it launched three wars, in which more than 3,500 Palestinians were killed.

My dear Hillel, in school, I learned about Isaac Newton’s law, which states that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. For the past 70 years, the Palestinian people have been subjugated to forced displacement, occupation, settlements, killing, detentions, and siege. Is it possible that given all that, the Israeli government still expects security and stability? Yes, Palestinians are militarily and economically weaker, but keeping them in that situation – which is contrary to justice and human rights – in addition to the lack of hope, will certainly lead to a similar reaction. It will reinforce instability, and deprive Israel of existing as a normal state that invests its resources in scientific discovery and economic prosperity.

SUBSCRIBE TO +972 MAGAZINE'S WEEKLY NEWSLETTER

SUBMIT

Dear Hillel, we are now in 2018, where the human consciousness can no longer comprehend words like racial persecution, occupation, and the humiliation of one nation by another. The world today is positioned to be more open, and culturally and economically interconnected. The walls that divide people and cultures are being shattered. The existence of a country that erects cement walls to imprison different ethnic groups is an unsettling sight, which does not fit the spirit of our time.

I believe the solution is near and possible. It will not require more than the courage to take initiative and set a new perspective, after traditional solutions have failed to achieve a just settlement. Let us fight together for human rights, for a country that is democratic for all its citizens, and for Israelis and Palestinians to live together based on citizenship and equality, not segregation and racism.

I understand there are many obstacles in the way of this solution, but it deserves all those who are free to struggle for it, and for us to dedicate our finite lives to near its realization, for it is the more humane and just alternative. It is even more reasonable, because it will not enable neither Palestinians nor Israelis to deny the other’s existence. As I learned from the Quran: that which benefits all people remains on the earth, and the rest shall vanish like foam.

Ahmed Abu Artema is a Palestinian journalist and peace activist. He is one of the organizers of the Great Return March in Gaza. This letter was translated from Arabic and first published in Hebrew on Local Call. Read it here.

Before you go...

A lot of work goes into creating articles like the one you just read. And while we don’t do this for the money, even our model of non-profit, independent journalism has bills to pay.

+972 Magazine is owned by our bloggers and journalists, who are driven by passion and dedication to the causes we cover. But we still need to pay for editing, photography, translation, web design and servers, legal services, and more.

As an independent journalism outlet we aren’t beholden to any outside interests. In order to safeguard that independence voice, we are proud to count you, our readers, as our most important supporters. If each of our readers becomes a supporter of our work, +972 Magazine will remain a strong, independent, and sustainable force helping drive the discourse on Israel/Palestine in the right direction.

Support independent journalism in Israel/Palestine Donate to +972 Magazine today
View article: AAA
Share article
Print article
  • LEAVE A COMMENT

    * Required

    COMMENTS

    1. KNB186

      “Israelis cannot ignore the fact that there are more than 10 million Palestinians who still dream of the day they will live in freedom, and return to the homes they were forcible removed from in 1948.”

      Should the 15 million Germans expelled from Silesia, East Prussia, and the Sudetenland also demand a right of return? And why couldn’t anyone find an ancestor living 200 years who lost his home, and demand a return there?

      Reply to Comment
      • Tom

        Yes of course, the deportation of palestinian doesn’t have the monopole of the injustice in the humanity history. But does it make it less injust ?

        The right of return of palestinian refugee is still recognised by the UN résolutions, even if this right have been denied by Israel since its creation. It’s part of the final deal.

        By the way, why your comment does not apply to all the jewish from everywhere that are allowed to settle in the contry where their potential ancestors used to live thousands years ago ?

        Reply to Comment
      • Bruce Gould

        @KNB186: It’s not my role to suggest what the Palestinians should or shouldn’t accept, but I believe that many, many people (myself included) would accept a real, contiguous Palestinian state along the 67 borders with the Palestinian right of return to that state, with perhaps a token number inside Israel proper.

        But Israel right now is run by people who are drunk on the idea of “Eretz Israel”, and the settlements keep slowly expanding.

        Reply to Comment
      • UnimpressedRealist

        Ummm YEAH, why would you have a problem with millions of people in European countries expelled from their homes to return to their homes? What on earth for?

        Or the Rohingya?
        Or the Yemeni?
        Or the Iraqi?
        All the Arab Jews from all Arab states?
        Even if it was just Palestinians though, who sane and good has a problem with righting wrongs done to millions?!

        It’s astonishing how you apparently want people to be deprived of their roots, for the crime of being victims of policies that they were the primary targets of. Yet Israel uses the claim that 4000 years ago Jews only lived in the holy land (Which isnt accurate at all, we weren’t the only people either and never were.) which gives a Jew from Florida who absolute no roots at all beyond his/her faith free range to make alliyah to the holy land — while throwing out the actual family that has been born to the holy land for generations…for the crime of being of the wrong faith.

        Thats just nuts.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ido

          What is nuts is your comparison of the people in your post to the Palestinian “refugees”:
          https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5299664,00.html

          And Israel is not going to commit national suicide by allowing itself to become an Arab state. No matter how much people like the guy in the article fantasizes about it.

          Reply to Comment
          • Jan

            Ido, let’s turn the clock back 70 years. What would have happened had every Arab of Palestine been allowed to stay in their homes and on their lands? Of course that wasn’t going to happen. In order for Israel to be a majority Jewish state, the Zionists had to expel by force or frighten the Arabs into leaving.
            That is called ethnic cleansing. Today ethnic cleansing is considered a war crime.
            The “self determination” of the Jews rested on the dispossession of hundreds of thousands of people, people who bore no responsibility for the anti-Semitism in Europe that led to the creation of Israel.
            At least you should acknowledge that the establishment of Israel caused great harm to the Arabs of Palestine. They lost their homes, their lands and their lives.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            So you completely ignore the fact that 70 years ago the Partition Plan was based on population allocations so a Jewish majority was going to stay in the land area allocated based on Jewish majority ?
            Israel’s current borders are the result of the multiple Arab attempts to destroy Israel.
            “The self determination of the Jews rested on the dispossession of hundreds of thousands of people” – nope, if the Arabs accepted the Partition Plan there would be no discussion here because we would have 2 Arab Palestinian states (Jordan and “Palestine”) and Israel, the Jewish state.
            “At least you should acknowledge that the establishment of Israel caused great harm to the Arabs of Palestine” – I do. Just like it did to the larger number of Jewish refugees who fled or were expelled from the various Arab countries at the same time.
            “They lost their homes, their lands and their lives.” – so did the Jews who fled the Arab countries. So did the millions of other refugees after the end of World War II.
            But unlike the Palestinians, they are not used as perpetual “refugees” for political/strategic purposes:
            https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5299664,00.html

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            “if the Arabs accepted the Partition Plan there would be no discussion here because we would have 2 Arab Palestinian states (Jordan and “Palestine”) and Israel, the Jewish state” It’s false, in 1949 40% of the population in the “jewish state” was arab . 20 years later, there would be have been the same or the majority. And I am not talking about the 20-40% of private palestinian lands that was spoiled through the absentee laws after the Nakba.
            The Nakba/deportation/spoliation of palestinians was a vital need for a viable jewish state, and it was part of the project since the early begining (plan daleth).

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “It’s false, in 1949 40% of the population in the “jewish state” was arab” – how is it false ? 60% were Jews and the same year there was the largest ever number of Jewish immigrants arriving to Israel, 250,000 in a single year, not counting the ones the following years, Jewish majority by immigration alone was an fact.
            “20 years later, there would be have been the same or the majority” – incorrect. Maybe if you take into account demographics alone while ignoring the large increase of Jewish immigration the following years.
            “The Nakba/deportation/spoliation of palestinians was a vital need for a viable jewish state” – The Arabs rejected the partition plan, the “nakba” is the result of the Arab nations attacking Israel in order to destroy it and to kill the Jews. Israel won against all odds, the Arabs didn’t take that into account.
            and yes, keeping Israel’s borders secure from the people who tried to destroy it makes it viable.
            “was part of the project since the early begining (plan daleth)” – Plan D started in March 1948, a plan during the War if Independence to move from a defensive to an offensive strategy by creating a territorial continuity based on the partition Plan, ensuring the survival of the Jewish people and to halt the advancing Arab armies.
            Yes, it was part of the project to ensure Jews would not be eliminated.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido, “ignoring the large increase of Jewish immigration the following years” It would not have been so easy without spoiling 20-40% of the total land. A lot of new Israeli settlments was built on palestinian lands taken through the absentee law.

            Anyway, look at the numbers : 70 years after : 5.5 palestinian refugee descendant (probably much more) + 1.7 M actual arabs israelis = 7,3M of arabs, to be compared to 6.5M of jews (including 1M of arab jews).

            So, Again, the ethnical cleaning in 1949 was necessary to maintain the viability of the state of Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            @Tom, I simply point how you were factually incorrect when you said Jews would not be the majority in the land offered to them in the Partition Plan.
            “A lot of new Israeli settlments was built on palestinian lands taken through the absentee law” – The major use of the absentee law didn’t take place when the Partition Plan was offered but after the War of Independence, following the failed attempts of the Arab armies to destroy Israel.
            “5.5 palestinian refugee descendant” – only a fraction of them can be labeled as actual ‘refugees’ and there would be none if the Arabs accepted the Partition Plan. Also your calculation is fundamentally wrong because you need only to take into account the Arabs living in the Jewish part of the Partition Plan, not all of “Palestine”.
            “the ethnical cleaning in 1949 was necessary to maintain the viability of the state of Israel” – Again you are confusing the Partition Plan and the events following the war of 1948. So the combined Arab nations’ attempt to destroy Israel and kill the Jews had nothing to do with the events that happened, right ? or with the borders of Israel ?
            There were slightly more Jewish refugees who fled or were expelled from Arab countries around that time. Unlike the Palestinians they are not used a perpetual refugees for political reasons.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido : ” The major use of the absentee law didn’t take place when the Partition Plan was offered but after the War of Independence,” : And ? what does it change ? If the arabs had accepted the partition plan, thoses lands would stay in palestinian hands and the implementation of jewish settlments much more difficult (especially under the jewish allocated state that was much more smaller than the actual one) !

            “only a fraction of them can be labeled as actual ‘refugees’” This is your opinion, but according to UN resolution they are.

            “Also your calculation is fundamentally wrong because you need only to take into account the Arabs living in the Jewish part of the Partition Plan, not all of “Palestine” you re right, the jewish state according to the partition plan was much more smaller than the green border israel state. I don’t have the statistics, but 5.5M just do not include about 1-2M of palestinian descendant that are not “refugees” (in america, europe, emirates etc.) but would have stayed in the “jewish state”

            “There were slightly more Jewish refugees who fled or were expelled from Arab countries around that time” we can think than with peace, they would have stayed in their arab country

            We can’t re-do the history, but yes Israel needed this ethnical cleaning, and without the war would not have been a substainable jewish country, in the better half jewish half arabs state, much more smaller (look at the first partition plan !) and totally dependant to the arab state living by side. Jerusalem, would have been in the middle of the arab country, and the Negev and the Galile would have been almost separated.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “And ? what does it change ?” – it doesn’t change anything, it simply point how you were wrong. You’re comparing what happened when the Partition Plan was offered based on population allocation to what happened after a war when the Arab nations tried to destroy Israel and genocide the Jews. Population shifts are not uncommon in wars and the Palestinians were not exactly unique in this regard.
            They are unique by the way they are used as perpetual refugees as a political weapon against Israel for 70 years. At the time of the war and right after there were more Jewish refugees who fled or were expelled from Arab nations, you think their homes and property are still waiting for them in Iraq/Syria/Yemen/Libya/Egypt ?
            “If the Arabs had accepted the partition plan” – if the Arabs accepted the Partition Plan we would have 2 Arab Palestinians states (“Palestine” and Jordan) and 1 Jewish state (Israel) and there would be no Jewish settlements in the West Bank or any border changes related to the multiple wars where the Arabs tried to destroy Israel.
            “This is your opinion” – no it isn’t, it’s the opinion of what is a refugee by definition. a 4th generation Arab who like his father was born in Lebanon is not a “Palestinian” refugee. Refugee status is not a genetic trait, the Palestinians are kept
            as “refugees” for political and strategic reasons, used as a weapon against Israel. And a great source of Income to UNRWA of course.
            “according to UN resolution they are” – So a UN resolution invented a specific ‘refugee’ definition just for the Palestinians, unique in human history ? reminds me of the UN resolution the Arabs pushed for in 1949 when they re-invented what a refugee means just for the Palestinians, different from the one used with anyone else on earth, and created an agency specific for them (UNRWA) instead of using the usual agency (UNHCR) that helped millions of refugees.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): the UNHCR was supposed to deal with the integration and rehabilitation of refugees. The Arab states objected, they wanted a body which wouldn’t deal with integration or rehabilitation. They wanted a body that would work to perpetuate the problem.
            “you are right” – like I said, if the Arabs accepted the Partition Plan, there would be 3 states in “Palestine”. The Jewish state would remain the Jewish state.
            “with peace, they would have stayed in their arab country” – not exactly, the immigration from Arab countries started way before the first time the Arabs tried to destroy Israel. They increased in numbers of course once Israel won.
            If there was peace, like I said, there would have been 3 Palestinian states.
            “Israel needed this ethnical cleaning” – that’s an interesting take on Israel refusing to commit national suicide and turn into an Arab state. This is the reason the Right of Return is a red line and Israel will never agree to it.
            “and without the war would not have been a substainable jewish country” – as I explained in detail, simply incorrect. There would be a Jewish country, much smaller than Israel today but it would exist.
            “look at the first partition plan” – I did, many times. You think Israel today is a huge country ? it’s tiny.
            “totally dependant to the arab state living by side” – like Israel is dependent on the Arab states around it to survive ? you’re kidding right ? I believe Israel would have fared much better if not so many of its resources were directed into its survival against multiple enemy Arab/Islamic nations.
            By the way, read about the US State Department report on the number of Palestinian Refugees, drafted during the Obama Administration, which was immediately classified and hidden away. The US has been hiding this report for some time now. The ones who saw it
            described it as ‘a game changer’. Why do you think that is ? I wonder if Trump’s recent decisions about the Palestinian refugees has something to do with this report.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido, I totaly don’t understand what you are trying to say, because you admit yourslef than the right of return of palestinian is a threat for the Jewish majority in Israel. If there was no ethnical cleaning, you would have about 10-12M of palestinians living between the jordan river and the Mediterranean sea. It’s difficult to know exactly which part they are from, (the intial jewish state or the initial arab state defined in the partitian plan) but the majority in the jewish state would have been much more difficult to obtain.

            The absentee laws is just the continuation of the war, with the destruction of palestinian villages and deportation of population. Without this spoilation of private paestinian lands, the construction of new jewish settlments to absob the jewish imigration in the years folowing the creation of Israel would not be so easy, even not possible.

            That’s why Israel has always rejected the 189 UN resolution (that have created the palestinian refugee status, and still valid without UNRWA).

            So again yes, without the deportation of palestinian and the spoilation of their land was needed to make a substainable jewish state with a jewish majority.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “a threat for the Jewish majority in Israel” – you’re the one trying to spin survival and self preservation as “ethnic cleansing”.
            “If there was no ethnical cleaning” – as I said before: you’re confusing 2 separate timelines. If the Arabs accepted the Partition Plan there would be no major population shift of Palestinians, no West Bank settlements. There would be, as I said, 3 “Palestinian” states where the Jews had their own Jewish state for the Jewish people. Because of the Arab’s attempt to destroy Israel, because their rejection of the Partition Plan and their goal to genocide the Jews, because of those wars there were population shifts on both sides of the conflict, like there in similar conflicts throughout history.
            At this point in time, following the wars and the Arabs insistence of refusing to accept Israel existence or have any negotiation with Israel that would have potentially restored the West Bank to Jordan or Gaza back to Egypt, you think it makes sense to allow a potential enemy population, lead by people who openly supported Israel’s elimination, come to live in your country as if nothing happened ? maybe to you this makes sense, to me this is absurd. And at this moment in time, thanks to the “creative” definition of ‘refugee’ given to the Palestinians and them alone in human history, following the Palestinian Right of Return, in effect as the Palestinian leadership and some Arab countries insist, is to turn Israel into an Arab state. This is actually a rare consensus among all the Israeli political spectrum, well if you don’t take into account the Arab party which openly supports those who call for Israel’s destruction and are not exactly hiding their intentions.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “but the majority in the jewish state would have been much more difficult” – not if you take into account the huge surge in immigration as I said, following World War II and the rise of anti-semitism and nationality in Arab/Islamic states at the time which targeted the Jews living there causing many to immigrate, also to Israel.
            “The absentee laws is just the continuation of the war” – in a way, to ensure Israel’s continual existence. If you think at this time allowing Arabs to return makes sense, that I’ll have to disagree with you. The same way the hundreds of thousands of Jews who fled or were expelled from the various Arab/Muslim countries were not going to return living there as if nothing had happened.
            “That’s why Israel has always rejected the 189 UN resolution” – you are confusing the resolutions, 189 is about the Republic of Vietnam invading Cambodia. I’m assuming you mean 194.
            Like I said: Israel will never allow itself to turn into an Arab state, especially with the “creative” way the Palestinian refugees are defined. The Palestinian refugee status would have been solved decades ago if it wasn’t for the Arab states aiming specifically to perpetuate the problem and not resolve it.
            “without the deportation of palestinian and the spoilation of their land” – without the attempted genocide of Jews by the Arab nations, without the insistence of the Arab nations to perpetuate the Palestinian refugee problem, without the Palestinian leadership and a few Arab countries insistence that Israel willingly turn itself into an Arab state we wouldn’t be discussing the logic and fairness of Israel, the homeland of the Jewish people, refusal to commit suicide on a national scale and what seem to be a surprise by some regarding Israel’s wish to continue and exist.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido : For now, you just spreading your hatred and hedging the question, just proving AGAIN than the ethincal cleaning was needed to garanty the survival of a jewish majority in Israel.

            Really, what does your jewish state would look like if the arabs had accepted the peace and without land transfer ? a Jewish state composed of 43% arabs, cutting in 3 pieces ? How Israel would have done to absorb the jewish imigration ? Most of the new settlments created folowwing the creation of Israel has been done on Palestinan lands.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Refusing to commit suicide on a national scale is now “spreading hatred” ? I’d hate to see my country turn into another Arab hellhole like the Arab countries around Israel.
            Ask the Arab Israelis who live in Israel if they prefer to live in Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon or Egypt and you’ll get the same response. Haters all of them, right ?
            “ethincal cleaning was needed” – I responded to this about 4 times now in the posts above. I explained the circumstances involved and how what you seem to think is unfair or illogical is simply absurd.
            “survival of a jewish majority in Israel” – Again: I addressed this in detail in the posts above. You seem to think allowing millions of Arabs entry into Israel is a great idea. I respectfully disagree.
            “a Jewish state composed of 43% arabs” – Again: addressed this in detail in the posts above. a Jewish state of 60% before the massive immigration of Jews and your calculation was a mistake since you based it on all the region, not the area assigned to the jewish people in the Partition Plan.
            “cutting in 3 pieces ?” – that was going to be the result of the Partition plan. Jordan, which was created at around the same time also on a region carved out of the British Mandate of Palestine, a new Palestinian state and a new Jewish state.
            The majority of Palestinians would actually be in Jordan.
            “How Israel would have done to absorb the jewish imigration ?” – so you’re not familiar with the very unpopulated Negev area in Israel ? which was going to be part of the Jewish state based on the Partition Plan ?
            “Most of the new settlments created folowwing the creation of Israel has been done on Palestinan lands” – and again you are mixing the 2 timelines. If the Arabs didn’t reject the Partition Plan, there would be lots of options in the south of Israel and there would be no West Bank settlements or any other settlements.
            Everything to do with Israel’s borders and population shifts is the result of the Arab nations attempts to destroy Israel and genocide the Jews and their refusal to accept Israel’s existence or negotiate with Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            Come on Ido, it would not have been possible so easy ! Most of the jewish imigration was absorbed in palestinian lands, that is the reality ! without that, it would not have been possible.
            When i m talking about 3 pieces, i m talking about the Galillée/the center/ the Negev, that was not really continuous.

            Just a small, non scientific calculation : The arabs population in the jewish state, was 30% of the total palestinian population => 70 years later they are 10-12M meaning a jewish state with 3-4 M of palestinian =6,5M of jewish mean almost 10M of people living in 14 000 km2 (the jewish state allocated) including 5 600 km2 of desert (not talking about the mountains) means a density of 715 hab/km2 or 1 190 hab/km (without the desert), meaning a density equivalent to Bengladesh, 3-4 time higher than the actual Israel state (already one of the highest in the world)

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            And if you take the water parameter in the calculation, it s not possible to provide water to 10 M people only through the tiberiade lake and eastern aquifer (that would have been under the arab state control by the way). And don’t talk about desalinisaton because the technolodgy appear in the 2000s, (two big dessal are located now in the arab allocated part)

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Most of the jewish imigration was absorbed in palestinian lands” – I’ll repeat myself again: there is a very large unpopulated region in Israel called Negev. There are cities there but very few. It was part of the Jewish Partition.
            “without that, it would not have been possible” – simply incorrect as I already explained.
            “When i m talking about 3 pieces, i m talking about” – that’s not what I was referring to when I mentioned the 3 states, obviously. As I explained twice I believe.
            “that was not really continuous” – The land designated to “Israel” was continuous. Look at the map.
            “70 years later they are 10-12M” – you’re making a lot of assumptions based on the current statistics and not taking into account how they are the result of events and geopolitical occurrences that came into existence because of the rejection of the Partition Plan and because of the multiple attempts of Arabs countries to destroy Israel and to genocide the Jews. You’re right, this is most definitely a very non scientific calculation.
            “10M of people living in 14000 km2” – There are about 5.6M people in Singapore on a territory of 720km2. Never mind that your calculation is a wild guess, I think it would be OK.
            “of desert” – I invite you to visit the Israeli cities in the Negev. “making the desert bloom” and all that.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido, it was not really continuous if you look on the map, just a narrow corridor connecting the 3 pieces. It was already a very hight challenge for Israel to absorb the jewish imigration, even by spoiling palestinian land.
            I don’t think they would have succeed that way. You know the exisiting housing issue in Israel, it would have been 3 time more difficult with 10M people in a 50% israel.
            The comparison with Singapour is not revealing, because it’s city state, and not in the middle of a desert (the desalination is a 20centery technolodgy). How Israel would have done to feed his population? and bring water to the desert without touching the aquifer controled by the arab state ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “just a narrow corridor connecting the 3 pieces” – which makes it continuous. When you pass from one section to the other you do so in your own border.
            “hight challenge for Israel to absorb the jewish imigration” – of course it was because the country was in its infancy. There were many challenges which Israel overcame like it did before the War of Independence.
            “You know the exisiting housing issue in Israel” – sure, In Tel-Aviv. Not in Kiryat Malakhi or Sderot or the other many areas not in central Israel.
            “t would have been 3 time more difficult with 10M people” – Again, like I said, your calculation is a wild guess not taking into account how the current situation is the result of events and geopolitical occurrences which came into existence because of the rejection of the Partition Plan and because of the multiple attempts of Arab countries to destroy Israel.
            “because it’s city state” – used it as an example of a very small land mass with high population which seems to be doing just fine.
            “not in the middle of a desert” – there are many parts in Israel which were a desert or a malaria infested swamp until the Israelis changed them. What makes you think they couldn’t elsewhere ?
            “How Israel would have done to feed his population?” – with trade and agriculture, mainly. Like it did.
            “bring water to the desert without touching the aquifer controled by the arab state” – mainly using pipes, like it did in the past. And who said there would be no agreements and trade between the 3 states in Palestine ? usually this happens in peace time, especially when it’s beneficial to all parties.

            Reply to Comment
          • tom

            @ido my calculation are just, it s the speading between the Jewish and arab state that is difficult to guess because there are no statistics on where the Palestinians diaspora is from. You have between 10-12M of palestinian. Plus the 6,5M Jewish people = 16,5-18,5 M people between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. In a country living under scarcity, it s not possible.
            It s easy to say that it would have been possible without taking palestinian state when most of the Jewish immigration was absorbed on palestinian land! The jewish people owned only 7% of the mandate Palestine (don t find the number on the jewish allocated part).

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido, the first part of the calculation regarding the number is based on the actual datas : there are about 10,5-12M of Palestinian over the world, what is not possible to check, is where there are from (the arab or jewish alocated). I have just assume than the ratio is fix (30% of the total palestinian population in 1949 was in the jewish state)

            Thinking about blooming the desert without water is just a dream. If you look at the consumption of water in Israel now, even with the best desalination plants in the world, 15-20% of the water is from Annexed Golan/Syria and 25/30% from West Bank (this ratio would have been much more higher taking into account the border of the initial arab, including part of galilea, and western green judea). Buy it from the neighbohoor ? ahah funny, you forget that all the neighbors are also in severe water scarcity ! The control of the Water was a key of the success of the sionism, and it was well knowed by the leaders of Israel.

            At the end you’re taking about to feed and give to drink to 10M people (+2M people) with less than half of the actual water ressource, and 2/3 of Israel (land including 40% of desert). High challenge !!

            Anyway, it’s easier to say “it would have been possible” when in reality the very large majority of jewish immigration was absorb by taking palestinian lands, much more valuable and fertile than the desert !(yes with the water you can bloom the desert, but you don’t have a lot of water).

            Last minor point, the corridor was also separting the 3 pieces of arab state (Gaza, West Bank and Galilea) so mean a share control over it.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido, It’s funny because Sdérot and Kiryat Malakhi was actually built next to depopulated palestiniange villages (Najd and Qastina), in the initial allocated arab state !!
            Check there : https://zochrot.org/en/keyword/45323

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Gave you an answer to your identical post below.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “my calculation are just” – nope, as I said it’s based on a guess which doesn’t take into account historic events that shaped the area. I explained this 3 times I believe.
            “difficult to guess because there are no statistics” – my point exactly.
            “between 10-12M of palestinian” – never mind that the real number is actually much lower, if you didn’t guess both UNRWA and the Palestinian Authority raise the number for obvious reasons, this number ,like I said, is relevant for this time, you can’t
            base this on what would have happened if every major historical event which shaped the area we know today didn’t take place. This is a guess, nothing more.
            “In a country living under scarcity, it s not possible.” – so you’re unfamiliar with Israel’s economical success ? despite said scarcity in natural resources and land ?
            “when most of the Jewish immigration was absorbed on palestinian land” – already addressed this multiple times in the previous posts, not going to bother copy/pasting again.
            “The jewish people owned only 7% of the mandate Palestine” – and what makes you think the other 93% was private Arab land ? it wasn’t. About 75% was state owned land, first by the Ottoman Empire, then the British Mandate. and 77% of the British Mandate of Palestine was already carved for an Arab Palestinian state, Transjordan.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “first part of the calculation regarding the number is based on the actual datas” – no there aren’t, both UNRWA and the PA are not exactly telling the truth about the actual number.
            “Thinking about blooming the desert without water is just a dream” – Israel apparently made dreams come true by bringing and developing modern agriculture.
            “If you look at the consumption of water in Israel now, even with the best desalination plants in the world, 15-20% of the water is from Annexed Golan” – As I already said, if you’re making guesses, why not guess that Israel would have made water based agreements with the other 2 countries ?
            For mutual benefits ?
            “you forget that all the neighbors are also in severe water scarcity” – Israel bought water in the past from Turkey. Can be elsewhere if needed. I’m assuming you are not aware of this.
            “drink to 10M people” – Again you base the number on a guess which doesn’t take into account the major geopolitical events that shaped the area following the Arab rejection of the Partition Plan.
            “it’s easier to say “it would have been possible”” – it’s just as valid as your estimates.
            “very large majority of jewish immigration was absorb by taking palestinian lands” – Believed I addressed this 6 times by now. Just go up and read it again.
            “a share control over it” – still doesn’t cancel out the fact that you can move from one area to the next.
            “It’s funny because Sdérot and Kiryat Malakhi” – gave you an answer at the bottom of the page, next to your identical post.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido, You can say 3, 6, 10 times the same stupid argments, it will not change anything.

            Don’t try to minimise the Palestinian disapora,(I have already reduced the palestinians statistic that give the number of 12,5M).
            Lets calculate it in an other way : 250 000 non deported-palestinians in Israel in 1948 is now 1.8M ; with a basis of 405 000 you reach the number of 3M = same number

            Regarding the blooming of the desert, you obviously don’t know the situation in the region, and turkish water represent only 5% of the consumption (we re talking about replacing 50% of the water). Plus this water is too expensive to be used for blooming the desert and agricultural purpose.

            I know that than 93% of the land was not private palestinian land, but a part of it was municpal/comunity lands, plus “state land” doesn’t mean “jewish land”. In a democratical country with 42% of arabs, the jewish wouldn’t have the poltical strengh, as now, to take all the jewish land for the jewish comunity only. A Knesset composed of 42% of palestinian arabs, would definitly not be the same.

            I didn’t see your comments regarding Sdérot and Kiryat Malakhi (problem of posting comments, as my first one), but if you want to convince me than the jewish immigration could have been absorb in non-palestinian land, you should try to find some city that was not build next to depopulated palestinian villages. I don’t think there are a lot but you can try.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “You can say 3, 6, 10 times the same stupid argments, it will not change anything” – of course it won’t if you insist of saying unsubstantiated nonsense and ignore posts.
            “Don’t try to minimise the Palestinian disapora” – Again: you don’t seem to be aware of the lies of UNRWA and the Palestinian Authority regarding the real number of so called Palestinian “refugees”.
            For example there are around 174,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon as measured by the Lebanese census, UNRWA claims it’s around 470,000. Getting grants based on the number probably has something to do with this.
            “the palestinians statistic that give the number” – and they are lying, by around 1.2 million just between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river:
            https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/12/30/inflated-palestinian-population-figures-lie-behind-talk-of-demographic-time-bomb-israeli-expert-says/

            “with a basis of 405000 you reach the number of 3M” – Jews would still be the majority in their part of the partition map.
            “you obviously don’t know the situation” – I know for a fact the early Zionist immigrants turned desert areas and malaria infested swamps into hospitable areas.
            “and turkish water represent only 5% of the consumption” – gave you an example of other alternatives. Like I said, there could be others if needed.
            “Plus this water is too expensive to be used for blooming the desert and agricultural purpose” – not when your existence depends on it, as you claim.
            “part of it was municpal/comunity lands” – Again: not owned by the Arabs who today call themselves Palestinians.
            “plus “state land” doesn’t mean “jewish land”.” – no, it means belonging to whoever owns said land and they can partition it, exactly what I mean.
            “In a democratical country with 42% of arabs, the jewish wouldn’t have the poltical strengh” – You’re again making a guess basing it on current information not taking into account several decades of geopolitical events which shaped the area.
            Maybe in peace time after 3 generation the population in the Jewish Partition would become more homogeneous and less “death to the Jews” ?
            “I didn’t see your comments regarding Sdérot and Kiryat Malakhi” – scroll down to the bottom.
            “find some city that was not build next to depopulated palestinian villages” – how about Arad ? Dimona ? Ashdod ? Netivot ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido, Regarding the numbers, I don’t know if an israeli propaganda website is a better one than a UN agency or the PSCB. I’ve read the article, one of the difference is because the palestinian are not resident but living abroad, so anyway they would be part of the diaspora, included in the10-12,5M total palestinian over the world.

            Obviously you don’t know the water sector. Israel is totally depending on the montain aquifer and Golan Heights. Thinking about blooming the desert without this ressource, by taking water from Turkey to Negev is just a foolish idea.

            So yes, a jewish state with 42% of arabs, under the allocated area would not be able to absorb the jewish immigration with the same ease than taking palestinian lands. The transfer of population was already identified as essential for the survival of the future state of Israël, by the Jewish agency folowing the Peel Commitee.
            http://www.1948.org.uk/population-transfer-committee/

            Regarding the cities you give in exemple : Ashdod is built on the ruin of Isdud (and Arad is in the initial arab alocated state). You can refuse the right of return of refugee (after 70years, I agree, things have to move on for peace and alternative solution can be done), but it’s not a reason to forget the arab history of Israel and pretend than nothing happened during the Nakba. Yes, most of the new jewish settlments (that have absorb the jewish imigration) was built on the ruins of palestinian villages and cities, taking palestinian lands. You can change the name of the cities and places, but you can not change the history.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “israeli propaganda website is a better one than a UN agency” – you are more than welcome to look at the report and the gathered statistics:
            http://theettingerreport.com/no-arab-demographic-time-bomb-2/

            The PA, like UNRWA, receives aid based on the number of people who need it, so it has a big incentive to inflate the population figures. Also to scare the Israelis demographically for political reasons.
            They use some very creative ways to do so, for example not notifying UNRWA of deaths.
            I’m assuming the real actual number is somewhere between the Israeli and the Palestinian data but there is no doubt the Palestinians are inflating the number, just like UNRWA.
            And I doubt Israel did the Palestinian census in Lebanon.
            “Obviously you don’t know the water sector” – that’s especially amusing because I worked for 2 years in Mekorot, Israel’s national water company.
            “Israel is totally depending on the montain aquifer and Golan Heights” – The mountain aquifer goes from Jezreel Valley down to Be’er-Sheva in the south and the second biggest source is the coastal aquifer, spanning more than 100kn from the Krayot to the Gaza Strip, not the Golan Heights.
            Israel has increased its use of desalination since the 90’s and today more than half of Israel’s drinking water are based on it. It also allowed Israel to export water to Jordan.
            “by taking water from Turkey to Negev is just a foolish idea” – I never said to turn the entire Negev into a blooming forest. Israel did build towns and cities in the Negev in the past and present, in fact populating it was the vision of Ben Gurion and recently the Negev is having a surge of development including moving the whole military bases center (‘City of Training Bases’) from the central district to the Negev which is intended to make many families move there.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “than taking palestinian lands” – Again you are taking statistics based on the geopolitical changes following major events which took place and think things would have worked exactly the same as it did. As I said about 10 times, you have no idea what would happen if the Arabs didn’t reject the Partition and didn’t attempt to destroy Israel and genocide the Jews. Maybe 4 generations of peace would have made the region look quite different ?
            “The transfer of population was already identified as essential” – Again: happened mostly following the wars, when there was a population shift on both sides. I already mentioned this multiple times.
            “was already identified as essential” you’re linking a pro-Palestinian propaganda site with distorted out of context quotes and lies:
            http://blog.camera.org/archives/2012/08/distorted_quotes_to_defend_dis.html

            “Ashdod is built on the ruin of Isdud” – but the others are fine, right ? why don’t you look how many “Palestinian” towns and villages are built on much older ruins of Jewish settlements. I gave you a few examples.
            “pretend than nothing happened during the Nakba” – who said anything of the sort ? every peace agreement offer included a compensation element and even a symbolic return of a few thousands of actual refugees. There’s also no reason
            to forget how Israel fought and won a war for its existence against multiple Arab nations with a goal to destroy it and won against all odds. There’s also no reason to ignore the fact that there were more Jewish refugees who fled or were expelled from Arab/Islamic countries.
            “taking palestinian lands” – I addressed this I believe 10 times by now. Not going to repeat myself.
            “change the name of the cities and places, but you can not change the history” – exactly, you can’t change the fact that Israel’s border changes are the result of multiple Arab attempts to destroy it and to genocide the Jews. Of the Arabs refusal to accept the legitimate existence of Israel, the homeland of the Jewish people.
            How the ‘Palestinian refugees’ saga is a farce perpetuated by the Arab world as a weapon against Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido, yes, the etting report is a propaganda think thank and not neutral at all. And I’m not talking about the refugee supported by UNRWA, but the palestinian disapora around the world.

            I don’t say that the coastal aquifer is not providing water, but more than a half of the water is produced on the montain aquifer and the golan height, that would have been fully controlled by the arab state. So Israel would have to deal with more than half of its consumption with non-conventional water (and the desalination Israeli technolodgy is viable and developped but only since the 2000’s, not in 1948). So yes it would not have been possible to do much more (what was done was already a lot) in the desert with reduced access to water.

            Anyway, the vast majority of jewish people are living now in old palestinian land and cities, or in the first arab allocated state (Askhelon, Ashdod, Beer Sheva,Jaffa, Moodin, Jérusalem suburbs, west bank settlments, North Galilee, East of central district, half of Haifa city etc.) Now, just try to figure out how it would been possible to install all thoses people in the Negev or the few free-arabs lands remaining (check on Inakba, there are not a lot).

            I am not talking about quotation out of the context, but the transfer commitee than was organised by the Jewish Agency in November 1937 folowing the Peel commission. The leader of Israel was afraid of a jewish state composed of 42% of arabs. They was much more pragmatical than you, and they knew than a transfer of land and people was needed (by force or by money). The only way to have a sustainable democratical jewish state.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “the etting report is a propaganda” – I linked the reasoning and evidence behind the statistics, as I said the number is probably between the Israeli count and the Palestinian count but there is no doubt the Palestinians are inflating the number, just like UNRWA, for the obvious reasons I already mentioned.
            “not talking about the refugee supported by UNRWA, but the palestinian disapora around the world” – so did I, and the numbers UNRWA and the Palestinian themselves indicate are very relevant.
            “I don’t say that the coastal aquifer is not providing water” – you didn’t mention it, the second most important water source in Israel.
            “more than a half of the water is produced on the montain aquifer and the golan height” – and here we are again: you making an assertion based on current time and history, thinking as if the Arabs didn’t reject the Partition Plan and attacked Israel to destroy it (multiple times) it would be exactly the same. If you’re making guesses why not assume that after 4 generations of peace there would be water based agreements between the local countries ? there have been water based agreements between Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority to address the shortage of clean water even in our timeline and not the alternative one where 2 Palestinian Arab states existed next to Israel.
            “not in 1948” – and the population of Israel in 1948 was nowhere near what it is today. And wastewater treatment and reclamation has been going on since the 70’s.
            “in the desert with reduced access to water” – water drilling in the Negev was able to sustain the cities and towns built there. Also:
            https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/science/02fish.html

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “vast majority of jewish people are living now in old palestinian land and cities” – as I said multiple times, I already addressed this. Imagine as if I copy/pasted it again.
            “install all thoses people” – and again you’re assuming the exact same scenario and number of people today, both Arabs and Jews, would have existed in an alternate time-line where the Arab states didn’t reject the Partition Plan and tried to destroy Israel multiple times.
            “the Negev” – why just the Negev ? there are a lot of unpopulated areas in the Golan, Shomron, South of the Kineret area, all within the Jewish part of the partition.
            “not talking about quotation out of the context” – the link you provided is pro-Palestinian propaganda filled with “creatively” edited quotes, out of context quotes and lies, see the link I provided for proof.
            “transfer commitee than was organised by the Jewish Agency in November 1937” – it was set up in 1948 about populating areas where the Arabs already left. There’s some debate about it as for example according to some historians Ben-Gurion specifically rejected the idea of the Transfer Committee.
            “folowing the Peel commission” – following the Peel Commission the Jewish Agency requested a conference to explore a peaceful settlement in terms of an undivided Palestine instead but as the Peel Commission suggested a partition plan instead of a single state.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido, Golan was in Syrian, Shomron in west bank and South of the Kineret was full of palestinian villages/small cities. After giving so many fake exemples you should check on a map (inakba) and learn a bit more about the arab history of your country. Again, palestinian villages was everywhere, even in the jewish allocated state, and there was not a lot of available free-arab land in 1948, exept the Negev. The nakba was the best opportunity ever to offer arab-free lands and houses to absorb the jewish immigration.

            “why not assume that after 4 generations of peace there would be water based agreements between the local countries ?” Because the neighbohors lives in High scarcity (especially West Bank and Jordan) and they don’t have water to sell. Their agricultural and industrial development are suffuring from a lack of water. You don’t figure out how the control of water ressource was essential for Israel development. The Jordan river is drying and the dead sea dying. Don’t think that it would have been easy with half of the water ressource.

            “transfer commitee than was organised by the Jewish Agency in November 1937” – it was set up in 1948 ” We re not talking about the same one. The Peel commission proposed a transfer of population to reach a viable two state solution. I m sure the great leader of Israel, was aware of it. They was pragmatical, smart and knew the threat of Arab demography. 58% of jews is a very short majority and a big threat for Israel,especialy knowing all tension already existing between arabs and jews.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Golan was in Syrian, Shomron in west bank and South of the Kineret was full of palestinian villages/small cities” – last time I’m repeating this: I was addressing the Partition Plan map, which very clearly show the areas allocated to the Jewish part of the partition.
            If you think the ‘palestinian villages/small cities’ covered the entire area you are more clueless than I thought.
            “After giving so many fake exemples” – How many times I refuted and explained your nonsense here ? including your inability to grasp events in the past and how they changed reality ?
            “check on a map” – I did. Saw the large uninhabited areas. Maybe you should check the partition Plan map again.
            “Again, palestinian villages was everywhere, even in the jewish allocated state” – Again: yes, but there were uninhabited areas everywhere.
            “not a lot of available free-arab land in 1948” – Again: state owned land, lots of it, not Arab owned land, allocated to the Jewish state, which had many uninhabited areas. Look at the map you are talking about.
            “The nakba was the best opportunity ever to offer arab-free lands and houses to absorb the jewish immigration.” – Again: 11 time ? yes after the war when the Arabs tried to destroy Israel and genocide the Jews. Also there were many opportunities for Arabs/Muslims
            to take possession of the property and land of the Jews who fled or were expelled from Arab/Islamic countries. Was the Arab failure to destroy Israel and slaughter all the Jews a great opportunity to makes sure Israel is going to continue and exist ? sure.
            “Because the neighbohors lives in High scarcity” – So a combined solution could not have been reached ? to better everyone ? technology based or otherwise. Not focusing on Israel’s elimination could have been beneficial to the Arab countries.
            “they don’t have water to sell” – the only thing I mentioned about selling was from Turkey, not West Bank and Jordan.
            “essential for Israel development” – as someone who worked at the Israeli water company, learning this was actually part of my training.
            “The Jordan river is drying and the dead sea dying” – now, not 70 years ago when Israel was building itself. The conflict is actually making things worse:
            https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2017/12/02/jordans-water-crisis-is-made-worse-by-a-feud-with-israel

            “The Peel commission proposed a transfer of population” – and as I explained, it didn’t happen. Maybe it would have helped reach the time-line where the Arab countries didn’t try to destroy Israel and kill the Jews.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido : “yes, but there were uninhabited areas everywhere.” BUT WHERE ??? give some exemple, for now you’re just listing places on the ruins of palestinian cities, on the arab allocated state, or in the Negev !!

            I know the 93% of non-private-jewish-land was not private-arab-land. But state land doesn’t mean jewish land. In a democratical 43% arab country, a “state land” surrounded by palestinian villages (and in most of the cases, already used by palestinian comunities without registration), is more palestinian than jewish.

            Anyway, the jewish immigration was mainly absorb in the palestinian land or in the original arab allocated state, this is the reality.
            Thinking that it would have been easy without population and land transfer is just ridiculous. The great leader of Israel was pragmatic, knowing than living in 42% arab country, with the already exisiting tension between arabs and jews, was a big threat to maitain the majority. The land and population transfer, was the only way to garanty the survival of a jewish democratic state.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “BUT WHERE ??? ” – Again: see the large areas between 2 towns/villages ? where there is no settlement ? there.
            “for now you’re just listing places on the ruins of palestinian cities” – nope, I’m not. From my examples only one was and as I said about 4 times now, there are many Palestinian towns/villages sitting on top of much older Jewish towns/villages.
            “on the arab allocated state” – wrong, addressed this in detail about 5 times now. Not going to repeat myself again.
            “But state land doesn’t mean jewish land” – what ? um, it means land owned by the newly formed Jewish state. I said this 3 times. Not private-owned by Jewish people, land owned by the state, like before. Like non-private land in every other country.
            “In a democratical 43% arab country” – you are again confusing either what I said or what was going to be, 43% arab citizens living in a newly formed “Israel”, meaning non-private land is owned by the state. Same thing as non-private land was going to be owned by the newly formed second Palestinian state (after Jordan).
            “a “state land” surrounded by palestinian villages” – do they privately owned said land ? if so, it isn’t state owned land. And as I pointed out about 6 times now, most of the land in “Palestine” was state owned land. By the Ottomans and later the British, not private Arab land. Is this difficult to understand for some reason ?
            “already used by palestinian comunities” – doesn’t change the fact that it wasn’t their land. There are many already used Beduin villages sitting on state-owned land in the Negev, doesn’t mean they owe the land.
            “is more palestinian than jewish” – sorry but this is nonsense. The Palestinians didn’t owned the land and a Palestinian country/nation didn’t exist. It was state owned land.
            “Anyway, the jewish immigration was mainly absorb in the palestinian land” – already went over this for about 10 times. You are again confusing 2 time-lines.
            “Thinking that it would have been easy without population and land transfer is just ridiculous” – who knows, maybe there would have been. However the Partition Plan never took place since the Arabs rejected it and tried to destroy Israel and genocide the Jews.
            “was a big threat to maintain the majority” – Again: we can speculate about this endlessly. Maybe an agreed upon land transfer would have taken place between the 2 newly formed state. However the Arabs actions and agenda sealed the fate of the region known as “Palestine”. Actions have consequences. The Arabs failed to destroy my country and murder my people, they will repeat this mistake a couple more times with similar bad results for them. Too bad for them.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @IDO : “BUT WHERE ??? ” – Again: see the large areas between 2 towns/villages ? where there is no settlement ? there.
            “for now you’re just listing places on the ruins of palestinian cities” – nope, I’m not. From my examples only one was and as I said about 4 times now, there are many Palestinian towns/villages sitting on top of much older Jewish towns/villages.

            So give exemple Ido ! FOr now only Dimona (in the Negev) is working ! Sderot, Kiryat Malakhi ,Askhelon, Adad, Golan, Shomron was not in the initial jewish state, and/or on the ruins of palestinian villages.

            For the south of tiberiade lake, it’s too vague, you should be more precise, because there was a lot of palestinian villages and small cities in the area.

            Again, check a map with the list of the palestinian communities, and try to find available free arabs land !!

            I don’t understand at all your argumentation regarding the ownership of the land. What I want to explain is that in a democratical state with 43% of arabs, a state land doesn’t mean it can be use for jewish people only (as it was done). This is particularly true if this land is surronded (and most of the time already used) by palestinian comunities.

            Reply to Comment
      • Bruce Gould

        @KNB186: And to drive the point home, the Tablet just ran an interview with one of those Hamas terrorist guys:

        https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/271017/interview-hamas-leader-husam-badran

        “The entire Israeli right believes in the whole Land of Israel and we believe that all of Palestine is historically ours,” Badran explains. “But having recognized reality and the changing international situation, we’ve agreed to a Palestinian state on a part of the territory which the entire world considers occupied.”

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          Oy vavoy! All of Ido Geller’s nattering propaganda up in smoke! How will he cope with the tragic loss of his raison d’être?

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Palestinian “doublespeak” is a legendary art, perfected by Arafat. You find it odd that he’ll say this in an interview to a Jewish magazine ? did Hamas change their declared goals ? their call for Israel’s destruction ? how they see all of Israel as “Palestine” ?
            You also probably have no idea what the Palestinian “Phased Plan” is. Being naive and clueless adds a lot to your credibility.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Oy vavoy! The spectacle of Ido Geller of all people castigating others for double-speak. The mind boggles.

            On another page Ido just got done telling us that Hamas speaks the truth. No Arab double speak there!

            Ido: “…hilarious.. you know better than Hamas if Gaza is occupied or not. It isn’t, they openly say so, do you understand ?…”

            But now, when caught out, his entire raison d’être obliterated!—Ido resorts to this chicanery (I translate):

            “They are not like us Jews, you see, they are Arabs, so they can’t evolve strategically like we can, they are mindless Jew blood cravers, zombies, and, like Ben and anyone else I disagree with, they are liars. They can never speak the truth unless I say they do (see my comments on the truthful Hamas). Naturally. You see, “they” are “legendary” double speakers–unlike us Jews who are so, so honest and forthright, I mean the entire occupation is not based on tireless double-speak, is it? Of course not! I mean, countless +972 articles have not documented with great authenticity Israeli double-speak, have they? Of course not!”

            The spectacle!

            We might even by tempted to call it…double speak!

            Ido, why do you make this so easy?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “But now, when caught out, his entire raison d’être obliterated!” – Hamas are currently with their backs to the wall, politically and financially. Their conflict with Fatah is about to get deadly and they are desperate for a cease fire with Israel so they can regroup and build their strength for the next round and to take over the West Bank once the impending Palestinian civil war escalates when Abbas dies which should be any day now.
            And you think a PR interview in the middle of all this, to Western media, to a Jewish site no less, saying what Hamas think Israel wants to hear, means Hamas rejected their charter, agenda and “Jihad” against Israel ? are you really this stupidly naive ?
            So you have no idea Hamas have been doing this for years in interviews to Western media ? khaled Mashaal, leader of Hamas, did the exact same thing in an interview with Yahoo News during Operation Protective Edge, when their backs were also to the wall. He of course backtracked on all his lies later.
            If you want to understand what’s going on, listen to what the Palestinians say in Arabic. To their own people. If you think Hamas are going to re-write their charter, reject their goals of ending Israel and religious mission of “Jihad” against Israel over a PR piece like this you are more clueless than I gave you credit for. Or simply a naive child who doesn’t know how the world operates.

            The interview in question:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoplzGQZXMQ

            “The spectacle! We might even by tempted to call it…double speak! Ido, why do you make this so easy?” – you’re like a child who doesn’t understand how the world operates. Pathetic yet hilarious.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): “On another page Ido just got done telling us that Hamas speaks the truth” – about Gaza not being occupied, as proven by actual reality which you seem to have a very hard time accepting. I ask again: did Hamas change their charter ? did they denounce their call to end Israel ? did they say they no longer consider all of Israel as “palestine” ?
            Did you believe the lies the Hamas leader said in the interview I linked in part 1 ? but he said it so it must be true, right ? you’re like a naive child with very tenuous grasp on reality.
            “But now, when caught out, his entire raison d’être obliterated” – nope, the only thing you prove is how clueless you are about Hamas and the Palestinians handling of Western media, read a bit about Arafat’s “doublespeak” and educate yourself. the man was a legend.
            He actually won a “doublespeak” award back in 1975 when he said in an interview how the bloodshed in Israel in “Palestine” exists because the PLO wants the two to coexist. Do you believe him ?
            You seem to not understand how a chronic liar like Arafat does not tell the truth all the time. Saying something in English to Western media and then saying the exact opposite in Arabic to his terrorist group. This is very well documented to the point of people thinking it’s a strategy:

            https://www.jta.org/2001/12/23/life-religion/features/is-arafats-doublespeak-a-strategy

            “Ido resorts to this chicanery” – you’re a liar and a terrible one at that. I never said anything of the sort. Everything I said, just like now, I backed with evidence, which you of course ignore or make up some of the most insane lies imaginable to avoid confronting it. Some examples of your lies: “the people in the evidence are fake”, “you ‘invert'”, “the Palestinian leadership, the ones dictating policy and has full control on the Palestinians are not that important or influential”, and of course simply ignoring evidence posted by me repeatedly.
            You seem to have a very hard time coming to term with the fact that you’re a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talk about even wnen I shove the evidence in your face repeatedly.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            @IDo Geller: Blah blah blah. This is pure, 100%, racism. The racism of “Arabs are legendary double speakers but Jews are not.” This from a right wing backer of a state and a settler-IDF-GOI complex whose leaders engage in gargantuan quantities of double speak all the time, as documented voluminously in the pages of +972 Magazine and in the pages of Haaretz (to which said racist accuser tells me he can’t be bothered to subscribe) and elsewhere.

            The silver lining is the comic relief of watching this person cite Hamas as truth-tellers to correct my not knowing “how the world operates” but if someone cites Hamas in any other context….”double speakers”! And of course Binyamin Netanyahu et al. never ever engage in double speak! Holy cow! Yes, that’s indeed how IDO’S world operates!

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Blah This is pure, 100%, racism” – that’s a pure pathetic excuse to not address my posts.
            “the racism of “Arabs are legendary double speakers but Jews are not.” – not what I said, liar. If you didn’t understand I was referring to the Palestinian leadership, Hamas and PLO and I provided proof for it, proof you of course ignored. As usual.
            “his from a right wing backer” – I ask again: why are you ignoring the evidence I provided ? Why are you ignoring the posts again ? how you fail to understand such a basic fact as Hamas lying through their teeth to Western Media ? how Arafat’s “doublespeek” was so legendary to the point where he literally won an award for it in 1975 ?

            “documented voluminously in the pages of” – and this somehow negated what I posted ? here we have another example of your “but..but..Israel” dodge technique. Using it as a way to avoid addressing my posts and the evidence I provided. Again.
            “racist accuser tells me he can’t be bothered to subscribe” – double lie. About calling me a racist and lying about me “not bothered to subscribe” when I specifically told you about 4 times why I don’t subscribe to Ha’aretz just like I don’t subscribe to any other online news site. I also mentioned I read Ha’aretz in its printed form.
            Why are you lying about this as well ? trying to break a record ?
            “cite Hamas as truth-tellers” – Again: when they admitted Gaza is not occupied, which it isn’t. Not a single Israeli is there. There is a blockade.
            “to correct my not knowing “how the world operates”” – I explained this in detail, which you again ignored. You don’t seem to understand when people are not telling the truth and why that is. I literally explained this above like to a child.
            “but if someone cites Hamas in any other context….”double speakers” – I literally explained this to you backed by video evidence of non other than the Hamas leader lying on camera, and this is your pathetic excuse ? why are you ignoring the evidence ?
            “Binyamin Netanyahu” – and again the “but..but..israel..” dodge. Didn’t know we were discussing Netanyahu.
            “that’s indeed how IDO’S world operates” – Again you ignored my posts. Again you ignored the evidence. Again instead of doing both you lie, change the subject and go to great lengths to avoid addressing my posts.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            4 posts sent for approval, this site is still not posting my response. Posted it in the Facebook comments section. Enjoy.

            Reply to Comment
      • Jan

        The Germans who you mentioned had a country to which to return. The Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed as the result of the foundation of Israel have no country of their own to which they can return.
        In the late 1900s the Albanians were ethnically cleansed by the Serbians. The United States insisted on their right to return and they bombed Serbia to ensure that right.
        Why should the Palestinians who paid a very high price for the founding of the Jewish state not be allowed to return to the lands from which they were exiled?
        This conflict will never end until there is justice for the Palestinians who lost everything, their homes, their lands and their lives when the Jews shoved them out.

        Reply to Comment
        • Ido

          “The Germans who you mentioned had a country to which to return” – there are many others who did not.
          “The Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed as the result of the foundation of Israel have no country of their own to which they can return” – those Palestinians are almost all dead, their 3th-4th generation has a country where they were born in, if only said countries didn’t keep the Palestinian “refugees” as political pawns. They are not refugees by any sense of the word.
          And Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank are not “refugees”, they are in “Palestine”.
          “The United States insisted on their right to return”- they weren’t the 3th or 4th generation who never been to Serbia. And the situation there is a bit more complicated than that and not exactly comparable to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
          “Why should the Palestinians who paid a very high price for the founding of the Jewish state not be allowed to return to the lands” – Because Israel will never allow itself to become an Arab state. They can return to the future second Arab Palestinian state (after Jordan) if they wish. Same way as the Jewish refugees who fled from Arab countries leaving their lands and property will never go back no matter what fantasy Arabs try to spin.
          “This conflict will never end until there is justice for the Palestinians” – Israel has offered symbolic Right of Return to a few thousands and monetary compensation for the “refugees”. The conflict will never end until the Palestinians come to accept the fact that Israel, the homeland of the Jewish people, is not going anywhere and is not going to commit national suicide by allowing itself to become an Arab state.

          Reply to Comment
    2. itshak Gordine

      Israel is a Jewish state where minorities who respect its laws can live in peace. Israel is not an Arab state.

      Reply to Comment
      • Tom

        It’s totally incorrect to oppose jewish and arab, jewish are part of the arab identity and you can be arab AND jewish.

        Regarding the “minorities” (muslims, christians and druze mainly) there are a minority only in your mind ! They are half of the population between the jordan river and the Medditeranean sea (And I m not counting the palestinians refugees, only palestinians living outside).

        Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          @Tom: Entirely correct. Thank you for this clear statement.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            So you both are too dumb to understand how he meant the minorities in Israel or is this your attempt to shove in the ‘one state solution’ and include Gaza and the West bank Arabs in it ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Ahem. Even if Halevy meant “the minorities in Israel” you haven’t been paying attention if you think that Halevy means anything benign with his creepy, Orwellian-Feiglinist stock phrase: “a Jewish state where minorities who respect its laws can live in peace.”

            And by the way, what territory is “in Israel”?–Israel refuses to say.

            But, you also have not been paying attention if, as you imply, you do not know that Halevy considers all of “Judea and Samaria” to be Israel.

            Now Tom and I could resort to Ido Geller-style and ask how it is that you are too dumb to understand this, but we are a lot classier than that (admittedly, not a hard thing to accomplish–we don’t want to exaggerate this feat).

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “Ahem. Even if Halevy meant “the minorities in Israel” ” – he obviously did, that was what I said. That was the point of my post. That’s what you and Tom didn’t seem to grasp.
            “been paying attention if you think that Halevy means anything benign with his creepy” – not what I said and not what I was referring to. I usually don’t agree with what he says.
            “a Jewish state where minorities who respect its laws can live in peace.” – that’s actually a very accurate description of Israel, where Muslims are about 20% of the population.
            “And by the way, what territory is “in Israel”?–Israel refuses to say.” – if you’re too stupid to open a current map there’s nothing I can do to help you. If you’re referring to a future border based on an agreement with the Palestinians, google the peace agreements the Palestinians rejected.
            You seem to ignore what territory to the Palestinian leadership is “Palestine” even when they literally yell it in your clueless face as I proved to you about 4,643 times. You either ignored it or come up with some of the most hilarious lies I have ever seen here and that’s saying a lot. my favorites is “the people in your evidence are fake”, “the Palestinian leadership, literally the policy makers for the Palestinians, are not important or influential” and “you ‘invert'”. Good times.
            “do not know that Halevy considers all of “Judea and Samaria” to be Israel.” – like I said, I don’t always agree with what he says, the status of those regions should be cleared through negotiations, ideally with a Palestinian leadership that doesn’t call for Israel’s demise and see all of Israel, from the River to the Sea, as “Palestine”.
            “but we are a lot classier than that” – as usual, thanks for the light-hearted joke at the end. Always a winner.
            What I said was very simple, naturally you have to twist and turn it into something else.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            Ido, don’t blame the palestinian to have refuse several peace agreement that was more and more unfair, and do not respect the international laws and UN resolutions.
            The PA has recognised Israel in the green line border, with East Jérusalem as a capital. So when Israel will do the same ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “The PA has recognized Israel in the green line border” – the PA, as admitted by their own leaders, do not recognize the legitimacy of Israel, refuse to acknowledge Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people and see all of Israel, from the river to the sea, as their “Palestine”. They say this openly, their own charter says this very clearly, their own symbols and emblems are not a printing error.

            “don’t blame the Palestinian to have refuse several peace agreement that was more and more unfair” – why ? that’s exactly what they did. They refuse to accept any agreement that will allow a viable Israel to continue and exist.
            The Palestinian leadership is not interested in a peace agreement, they are interested in ending Israel. And apparently “fair” means “destroy Israel using demographics”.

            “So when Israel will do the same ?” – Israel basically did. Read the peace agreements details.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            “The PA do not recognize the legitimacy of Israel” ??? please give us your source of information !
            “fair” mean an agreement that allows a palestinian state to be independant,with their own ressources (water mainly), borders (air land and sea), control of importation and money, and capital (east jerusalem) on the basis of the green line border.
            “So when Israel will do the same ? – Israel basically did.” Really ??? SO Why they have installed 600 000 settlers in the future state of Palestine, maintain the occupation (not only military, that”could be justified for the security of Israel, but CIVIL occupation)and want to annex the Area C that is called “Judea and Samaria”.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “give us your source of information” – see the evidence in the Facebook comments section.
            “fair mean an agreement that allows a palestinian state to be independant,with their own ressources..” – Israel will not allow another terrorist infested Hamastan to exist in the West Bank with a direct aim at Israel’s strategic and economic centers. Giving the Palestinian the benefit of the doubt is suicidally stupid. That’s why Israel offered a demilitarized Palestinian State while keeping Israel’s security. Israel offered parts of East Jerusalem for a future new capital for the Palestinians, for example Barak in 2000 agreed that Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem would become the capital of the new state and the Palestinians would maintain control over their holy places.
            Of course East Jerusalem was never the capital of the Palestinian state, mainly because such a country or nation never existed.
            “Really ???” – yes, really. The Oslo agreements of the 1990s laid out a path for Palestinian independence, but the process was derailed by Palestinian terrorism.
            In 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to create a Palestinian state in all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank.
            In 2008, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered to withdraw from almost the entire West Bank and partition Jerusalem on a demographic basis.
            “SO Why they have installed 600000 settlers in the future state of Palestine” – Read the peace agreements offers again. You missed the part where almost all the West bank will belong to a future second “palestinian state” (after Jordan of course).

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            The olmert proposition was a joke. And the Tabaa discussion in 2001, was the last “almost” acceptable proposition (even if Israel still want to annex 7% of the Palestinian future state without any compensation).

            If Arafat has refused the Barak plan one time (for a lot of political reasons), why ISrael is proposing alternative plans more and more unfair, and in the same time continuying and developping the colonisation and civil occupation in the future palestinian state ? Is it the best way for negociation ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “The olmert proposition was a joke” – the Palestinians would never agree to accept it as it ensures Israel’s continual survival as the homeland of the Jewish people. I believe the word ‘unprecedented’ is a more accurate description:
            https://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Details-of-Olmerts-peace-offer-to-Palestinians-exposed-314261

            “Israel still want to annex 7% of the Palestinian future state” – Israel is always going to keep part of the West bank with the largest settlement blocks.
            “without any compensation” – simply incorrect. Land swaps were always discussed as compensation.
            “why ISrael is proposing alternative plans more and more unfair” – Which ones ? be specific.
            “colonization and civil occupation” – maybe in the areas Israel has no intention of handing out to the Palestinians. And settlements dismantling was always on the table, like in Sinai, like in Gaza.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            “colonization and civil occupation” – maybe in the areas Israel has no intention of handing out to the Palestinians” : Have you ever looked a map of the implantation of settlements ?? there are settlments in ALL West Bank !!!!

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “there are settlments in ALL West Bank” – so you missed the part where Israel offered almost all the West Bank to the Palestinians as part of peace agreements ? I believe around 95%, the rest in land swap. That included settlements removal, like in Sinai, like in Gaza.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            @Ido : So I really don’t understand the Israeli way of negociating: supporting the settlement of 600 000 people (creating a lot of conflict with the palestinian living there) investing billions of shekel in the future state of Palestinge ? All of that to at the end desmantle it ? like a money of exchange ?

            WHen yous see how much it was difficult to remove 8 000 people only in Gaza, I can’t imagine how much it will be for 600 000 !!!

            Reply to Comment
          • Tom

            You are listing declarations of palestinian politicians that do not reflect the official position of the PA (and the arab league, and the respect of the UN resolution).
            On the Israeli side, the official position of the Likud is much more clear : No palestinian state with east jerusalem as a capital, and a lot of israelis movement are calling for annexation of area C !

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “You are listing declarations of palestinian politicians that do not reflect the official position of the PA” – the leaders of the PLO and Hamas, the officials who are literally the policy makers, do not reflect the position of the PA ? that’s a ridiculous claim.
            The official PLO charter not official enough for you ? maybe not the position they lie about when they are interviewed in Western Media for ‘Useful Idiots’ consumption but that’s literally their position and goals. So you’re saying every official symbol of the PA (and Hamas) showing the entire land of Israel, from the river to the sea, as “Palestine” is a printing error ? you fail to understand the rationality and reasons behind the PA refusing to accept Israel’s legitimacy, they explain this in the links I provided.
            “and the arab league” – Are you talking about the Arab Peace Initiative ? the one trying to push for Israel’s end using demographics ? never going to happen.
            “No palestinian state with east jerusalem as a capital” – We’ll see in 3 months when the next peace plan will be revealed.
            “and a lot of israelis movement are calling for annexation of area C” – never going to happen. A lot of Israelis are calling to rebuild the Temple Mount shrine. Both are unrealistic fantasy nonsense.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            @Tom: I think you are seeing the endless fount of tirelessly re-issued nonsense, just disinformation, for which Ido Geller is known in these parts. And he expects you to tirelessly re-“answer” every re-issue of things that were settled a long time ago, and that you answered already perfectly well and accurately on this page. He will meet this with the same re-issued accretions of disinformation. Pay it no mind, is my advice, unless you want to use him as a foil–he can be quite good for that purpose.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            @Ben, That’s an interesting “rephrasing” to me pointing out in detail how Tom is factually incorrect. Please, by all means, what disinformation ? be specific.
            “Ido Geller is known in these parts” – thanks for the laugh, as always.
            “And he expects you to tirelessly re-“answer” – nope, I simply point out a fact and if I’m incorrect I expect you to point that out. Preposterous, I know. As I proved in detail over many articles how you are a clueless liar who has no idea what he’s talking about. Would you like me to post your ‘greatest hits’ ? some of your more recent lies border on the insane. I’m talking about the “your evidence is fake”, “you ‘invert'” and my favorite: “the Palestinian leaders, literally the dictators dictating policy and controlling the Palestinians, are not that important or influential”. I’m not making this up.
            “settled a long time ago” – Again, please, by all means, which ones ? go right ahead.
            “answered already perfectly” – nope, I pointed out where he was wrong. Very clearly so. Feel free to address it.
            “he can be quite good for that purpose” – I always enjoy it when you finish with a good joke. Not your best but not too bad.

            Reply to Comment
    3. Firentis

      This reminds me of one of those memes where there is the ‘vision’ and there is the ‘reality’. The vision is what is described above in hopeful terms. The reality would be what actually happens in every Arab Muslim majority state.

      Given the history of the Middle East and the world as a whole there is zero chance any sizable number of Israeli Jews will accept any situation where they can’t defend themselves by themselves. This is true now, will be true in 70 years and will be true in 200 years. If the Palestinians choose to suffer that long that is entirely their fault and responsibility for refusing to accept the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East. I don’t think they have the patience for it, but I guess we’ll see. Let’s talk in another 70 years. If they want to make peace with Israel, then the door is open to peace.

      Reply to Comment
      • john

        hypothetically jews can’t live with arabs, it’s never worked anywhere, anytime. equality is a dead letter. only ethnic armistice can suffice in the absence of sustainable peace. some imagination you’ve got.

        Reply to Comment
        • Firentis

          I have quite the active imagination. Perhaps that is the problem. I can imagine what this person is suggesting and I can imagine what will happen were it to come to pass, I can imagine where it would break down, and I can imagine what consequences that would have on me.

          I can also see what we have right now and it is hell of a lot better. If the author and the Palestinians want a change for the better for themselves they are going to have to offer me something equal or better than what I have right now. I have my own prosperous country right now, defended by a government and an army whose job is to keep me safe in a rather dangerous neighborhood. The author offers me a life as a persecuted minority living at the mercy of a vengeful Arab Muslim majority. That hasn’t worked out terribly well for any other people that have found themselves in such a situation.

          I’ll pass.

          Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            @Firentis: The author is not actually “offering” you anything (and from everything else I’ve gathered from you, all you are offering is the Palestinians’ abject surrender on your terms). You falsify the author’s “offer” in any event using predictable zero-sum terms of doom. What the author is intelligently asking for is that everyone struggle together for a solution that works (but god forbid you, the overlord, do something together with the untermenschen, right? The indignity!) ==>

            I understand there are many obstacles in the way of this solution, but it deserves all those who are free to struggle for it, and for us to dedicate our finite lives to near its realization, for it is the more humane and just alternative. It is even more reasonable, because it will not enable neither Palestinians nor Israelis to deny the other’s existence.

            Firentis you are smug but you overestimate the sustainability of your smugness.

            Reply to Comment
          • Firentis

            The author wants the influx of millions of Arabs into Israel and a one state solution that eliminates Israel and turns me, at best, into a defenseless minority living at the mercy of a Muslim Arab majority. In other words, the author is offering me abject surrender.

            That might work for the author. It certainly doesn’t work for me. The author might think it more just. I certainly don’t. And it is certainly far less sustainable, smug or not, for me than what I have right now.

            As I said before, I’ll pass on his generous offer. Let’s chat again in another 70 years.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            You’re going to cling to this falsifying zero-sum logic until the last dog dies but note first that the only reason the author ever had to think creatively and sincerely about making a one state solution work is that Israel obstinately refused to make a two state solution work. It thought it could have it all. And now that it has made this bed it does not want to lie in it but all the author is doing is saying the bed is made, it’s here, how are you and I going to get along in it, because we are stuck with each other.

            Then, putting that aside, the author quite clearly does not want Jews to be a defenseless minority and is not offering them abject surrender. You are projecting your zero sum thinking on him. Everything the author says, the whole letter and spirit of what he writes, is directly contrary to the idea that he wants either side to be defenseless. And he is not naïve about the struggle that will be involved in coming to terms with all this. Again you are smug with your “let’s chat in another 70 years.” We’ve had this conversation before, Firentis. You think you have 70 years. I don’t. Time will tell.

            Reply to Comment
          • Firentis

            Either Israel exists or it doesn’t. That is about as zero sum as it gets and that is what the conflict is about. The author, like many Palestinians, can’t accept the idea of Israel continuing to exist. So they cling to their own zero sum outcome of a one state solution while trying to sugarcoat being a defenseless minority for the Israeli Jews and the naive idiots that buy this vision. And since they never had any desire for a two state solution in the first place they then proclaim that it is impossible. Unfortunately for them partition is permanent; they can’t undo it. And so is Israel, and they can’t undo that either. They are stuck. They could have had their own country by now, but that would mean giving up their dream of undoing Israel. So they prefer to live in limbo with their violent dream while trying to cover it up with empty rhetoric. The solution is two states for two peoples. Whether they accept it now or in another 70 years is entirely up to them. That they reject such a solution doesn’t entitle them to a different one or obligate me to give up my country. And I won’t.

            In the end it does come down to a perception of whether Israel is sustainable for the foreseeable future. The Palestinians and their supporters believe that it is not and so Israel should accept any terms the Palestinians are willing to offer. This belief in the inevitability of Israel’s disappearance is the underlying basis for Palestinian rejectionism. It has quite the long history and uses issues that exist in Israeli society and trends in global affairs as bases for predicting Israel’s inevitable demise. The issues and trends referenced have changed significantly over time and yet the conclusion of such analyses always stays the same. Thus it is with matters of faith.

            Time will tell indeed. At present I see no evidence that would validate such a position. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary. Israel is a permanent fact and the Palestinians have no means of undoing it. Israel is getting stronger and the Palestinians are getting weaker. And yet the weaker party with no means of winning is offering terms of surrender to the stronger side with little chance of losing. And so when presented with such an offer the only rational response is to laugh at it.

            Reply to Comment
          • john

            nothing on this earth is permanent, much less a government.
            palestinians don’t have to wait 70 years, because only 2000 years of exile grant a people legitimacy to return.

            Reply to Comment
          • john

            sounds like your comfort has stifled your thoughts into a zero-sum language game where equality=suicide, in service of justifying an inherently unsustainable, unequal, dictatorship of privilege.
            also, mr. artema’s open-letter is not addressed to you, but hillel garmi, who at least took the road less traveled by refusing to enlist for the occupation.

            Reply to Comment
          • Firentis

            There is no equality in the Middle East. There are those that can defend themselves and those that can’t. The author wants to turn us into the former with the consequences being pretty obvious for anyone who pays attention to what is going on in the region.

            Reply to Comment
          • Firentis

            I mean the latter of course. 🙂

            Reply to Comment
          • john

            ‘in my comfort, i can only try to maintain my place more brutally than they try to unseat me. not even worth imagining a fairer future, if we will it, it is but a dream.’

            Reply to Comment
          • Firentis

            I shall cling to my survival with brutal force against all those that seek to destroy me and especially against those that cloak themselves in saintly garb and deem my destruction fair.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            @Firentis: One can take virtually every sentence of yours and say no, that is falsifying. “Either Israel exists or it doesn’t.” No, either the “Israel” that you want to preserve exists or it doesn’t. There is a difference between those two formulations. You are intent on maintaining the status quo that satisfies you and keeps millions (of non-Jews) under military dictatorship. So, as I said, for you it will be “zero sum” until the last dog dies. They could not “have their own country by now” without complete surrender to a bantustanized, Jerusalemless, pseudo-state, a border-controlled “gilded cage,” a statelet under overlord domination. The partition is permanent? Pray tell? Israel refuses to say what its border are. “They prefer to….” No, they live at the whims of an overlord occupier and the occupier’s preferences. No, Israel does not need to accept “any terms.” We had a character here, Geller, telling us to “tell the Arabs they need to reverse the three no’s of Khartoum,” as if the 2002 conference and API never happened, and you do something similar. It is the Israeli right wing that with Oslo and ever since have been the steadfast Jewish rejectionists. “There is no equality in the Middle East.” Now you’re coming semi-clean—you don’t ever envision equality as a basis for relations between Jews and Arabs in Israel, you don’t want equality or to even think about the possibility because giving up your status quo overlord status is naturally difficult. So yes it does come down to how sustainable this is. The Palestinian population between the river and the sea however is not shrinking or going away. Hence, the author here is trying to find an irenic, creative solution—your worst nightmare apparently. Again and again we see the right wing protest about, but secretly love, the extremists on the other side and again and again treat moderates and peace seekers as their worst nightmare, as the enemy. It is all too revealing the response to an article like Ahmed Abu Artema’s.

            “I shall cling.”

            Verily, this is your motto, Firentis. You should put it on your coat of arms, your family crest.

            Reply to Comment
          • Firentis

            Either there is a country called Israel or there isn’t. It is that simple. I am intent on making sure that there will be a country called Israel.

            The Palestinians could have had their own country. There were several opportunities that they decided to pass on. No one forced Arafat or Abbas to refuse those proposals. They did it on their own because they preferred to keep the conflict going rather than accept the permanent existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East. The Palestinians are capable of making decisions and it is racist and condescending to consider them automatons with no will of their own. This idea that it would be a ‘bantustan’ or whatever is just more nonsense promoted by people that never wanted a peaceful two state solution in the first place.

            Partition is permanent. There will be no Israeli police in Gaza or in Nablus or in Jenin or in Jericho. The partition lines at the moment are based on the Oslo Accords. That the Palestinians or their supporters don’t like those lines doesn’t make them any less real on the ground. If you find me some Israelis that are interested in doing garbage collection or running schools in Nablus or Gaza City let me know. I haven’t met or heard of any.

            Equality as used by the author is code word for eliminating Israel and turning Jews into a defenseless minority. I will certainly not agree to such an outcome. He can talk about equality until he turns blue, but there is zero chance I or any significant number of Israeli Jews will give up our ability to defend ourselves, by ourselves.

            There is nothing creative about his solution. The Palestinians have been insisting on eliminating Israel since 1948. The author is no different. That he has found a formulation that sounds better to Western ears is of little significance. We are not giving up our ability to defend ourselves regardless of the banner used by those that wish to destroy us. If the author wants to propose a creative solution he is going to have to offer us something other than abject surrender. Because at present we most certainly have zero reason to surrender. If he chooses to continue dreaming the Palestinian dream of eliminating Israel, then he can keep doing that in Gaza for the next 70 years. We’ll be fine without his ‘creative’ ideas.

            Since we’ve had this discussion before I am going to stop here. Go wild.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 1): “One can take virtually every sentence of yours and say no, that is falsifying” – very wrong.
            “No, either the “Israel” that you want to preserve exists or it doesn’t” – you’re saying Israel the homeland of the Jewish people or “Israel”, which is actually “Palestine”, a de-factor Arab state which was Firentis’ entire point.
            You mentioned falsifying ?

            “You are intent on maintaining the status quo” – the status quo is Israel’s existence and not turning it into an Arab state. he was very clear. This is something that Israel will never, ever allow. Israel has no intention of committing suicide on a national sale.
            “keeps millions (of non-Jews) under military dictatorship” – not what he said, he mentioned how the Arabs rejected any actual two-states solution and instead bank on Israel’s demise. How the article literally is about turning Israel into an Arab state.
            How the Arabs belief in the inevitability of Israel’s disappearance is the underlying basis for Palestinian rejectionism.
            “for you it will be “zero sum” until the last dog dies” – as he explained, the Palestinians are banking on Israel to die.

            “They could not “have their own country by now”” – of course they could, starting with the Partition Plan the Arabs rejected. And since when Jerusalem have been the capital of the Palestinians ? I don’t mind handing them East-Jerusalem but this always intrigues me. Since a Palestinian nation or state never existed, when exactly was Jerusalem theirs ?
            “The partition is permanent?” – Israel exists and will continue to exists along whatever other Arab country comes along. There will never, ever be a single state.
            “Israel refuses to say what its border are” – incorrect, Israel literally drew several maps as part of the peace agreement offers, see the Taba talks. The Palestinians refuse to abandon their desire to see all of Israel as “Palestine”.
            “No, they live at the whims of an overlord occupier” – the Palestinians and Arabs in general decided their own fate since they rejected the Partition Plan and any other peace plan since.
            “Geller, telling us to “tell the Arabs they need to reverse the three no’s of Khartoum,”” – and you of course lie about what I said. I reply here only because you mentioned me. I’ll explain in detail in the next post.

            more to follow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            (part 2): 9th time: I was responding to what you said and I quote: “you’d better radio the captain and get it turned around”, a response to me saying “that ship has sailed” about events that happened and will not be undone. I gave you 3 examples of things the Arabs did in the past, things that changed the region and can’t be undone. The only way to change them and their outcome is going back in time.
            I mentioned the Khartoum Resolution, the Arabs refusal to recognize and negotiate with Israel following the 67′ war they lost which cut short any attempt to negotiate with Jordan about returning the West Bank or parts of it back to them after the war. This has nothing, I repeat: absolutely nothing, to do with “the Khartoum Resolution of 1967 said something definitive about 2018”. Do you understand ? you’re a liar, plain and simple.
            You tried to bring an article saying the Arabs are willing to negotiate with Israel now as a response, never mind that as I explained 3 times now the API is basically the Palestinian plan to turn Israel into a de-facto third Palestinian state (after a free from Jews “Palestine” and Jordan)

            “as if the 2002 conference and API never happened” – why are you lying when the evidence you lied is right here ? that’s not what I said. Here’s are the actual posts:
            https://972mag.com/why-the-israeli-left-cant-reconcile-with-the-most-zionist-law/137025/

            “steadfast Jewish rejectionists” – yes, rejection of their own demise. What a shock.

            “Now you’re coming semi-clean” – that’s not what he meant and you know it, unless you’re that stupid.
            “you don’t want equality” – he doesn’t want Israel to become another Arab failed state. he wasn’t exactly being cryptic about it.
            “because giving up your status quo overlord status” – not what he said, this is you inventing stuff. Again: Israel is not going to turn itself into another Arab state. Ever.
            “The Palestinian population between the river and the sea however is not shrinking or going away” – too bad for them, they’ll have to deal with their over-population. Although evidence suggest their birthrate is decreasing as people become more modern and economically responsible.
            “the author here is trying to find an irenic, creative solution” – the author want a single Arab state where Israel now exist. Never going to happen. Ever.
            “and peace seekers” – confusing Israel’s demise with ‘peace seeking’ is a favorite among pro-Palestinian ‘clueless idiots’.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            @FIrentis:

            “The partition lines at the moment are based on the Oslo Accords”

            Around this central dishonesty the rest of your post orbits like the moons and assorted flotsam of a wayward planet.

            The Oslo accords, if they are this, what you say they are, and what “partition lines are based on,” are then and always have been an Israeli bad faith trick. End of story.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            Ben, you of course ignored everything Firentis said.
            “always have been an Israeli bad faith trick. End of story” – The Palestinian President himself is on record admitting the Oslo Accords were a deceit, in a speech he gave in 1994 in a mosque in South Africa:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=37xnaqF-6B4

            He compared it to the Hudaybiyyah peace treaty trick, which led to defeat of the peace partner.
            The Oslo partitions exist and are legally binding, like it or not. It was meant to be part of a process to reach a second Palestinian state (after Jordan).
            Apparently the Palestinian leadership’s idea of a Palestinian state, like the guy in the article, includes all of Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            They are not “legally binding” for land theft, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention, or anything else, and they are not in any way a pre-final status accord boundary setting or kind of unofficial boundary setting or partition making. All of that what you are trying to insinuate is Israeli bad faith trickery, using the Oslo Accords to entrench and extend the illegal settlements, the land grab, the occupation. In bad faith. Now, I don’t care if you don’t get this or if you disagree. I won’t reply to you any more on this, unless I feel like it, which I probably won’t.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “They are not “legally binding” for land theft” – why are you changing the subject ? you know I was talking about Oslo’s areas partitions of A, B and C. Which other subjects would you like to discuss ? be specific.
            “violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention, or anything else” – again, not what I was talking about and I’m pretty sure you’re not dumb enough to miss it.
            “not in any way a pre-final status” – the Oslo Accords were the start of the Oslo process, aimed at achieving a peace treaty based on United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, and at fulfilling the “right of the Palestinian people to self-determination.”
            “accord boundary setting or kind of unofficial boundary setting or partition making” – Again: at the moment the partition lines are based on the signed Oslo Accords, namely the designated areas. Do you understand what ‘at the moment’ means ?
            “All of that what you are trying to insinuate is Israeli bad faith trickery” – um, I actually said that about the Palestinians and provided proof for it, which you as usual completely ignored.
            “using the Oslo Accords to entrench and extend the illegal settlements” – nope, not what I said. Again: it was meant to be part of a process towards a second Palestinian state, saying this for a third time now.
            “the land grab, the occupation” – which was meant to be resolved by the various peace agreements the Palestinians rejected.
            “In bad faith” – I just proved to you what literally ‘bad faith’ is. Literally on record by Arafat himself. Why are you ignoring it again ?
            “unless I feel like it, which I probably won’t” – Well if you’re feeling ‘it’ please address the evidence I provided and the parts you got wrong regarding the Oslo Accords and what was actually discussed.

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Firentis said:

            “Unfortunately for them partition is permanent; they can’t undo it….Partition is permanent. There will be no Israeli police in Gaza or in Nablus or in Jenin or in Jericho. The partition lines at the moment are based on the Oslo Accords.”

            What partition of this do you not understand?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “What partition of this do you not understand?” – I understand how you are either pretending to be stupid or really are this stupid.
            He means the partition between Israel and “Palestine”, how Israel will never be “Palestine” and vice versa. Currently this partition exists through the Oslo Accords. For the first time in history the newly invented Palestinian nation has their own self governed area.
            I repeat what he said, you again ignore our posts as if they don’t exist. How pathetic can you be ?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            I didn’t ignore your arguments, I dispatched them. And without having to resorts to childish playground epithets like “stupid.” You really don’t understand any of this do you?

            Reply to Comment
          • Ido

            “I dispatched them” – and we have another new pathetic excuse to not refuting my posts. Along with “I’m discounting”, “rephrasing” , “artistic license”, “it’s fake”, “the Palestinian leaders are not that important”, “you ‘invert'”, I’m sure
            I missed a few. You didn’t “dispatch” anything, you again ignored it. Dealing with reality seems very uncomfortable to you.
            “resorts to childish playground epithets like “stupid.”” – Again: 4,673 time: every time I say you’re stupid I literally provide the reason why that is so. Very, very clearly. You, of course, ignore it. Repeatedly.Please, by all means, address it. Would you prefer “truth challenged” ? “reality ignorer” ? I don’t mind.
            “You really don’t understand any of this do you?” – I understand it perfectly, how you again ignored my posts explaining exactly what myself and Firentis meant by Partition among the rest of the parts you ignored. Again.

            Reply to Comment
    4. Ghulam rasool

      So beautifully articulated which will melt the heart of even toughest if they even peep the article and surely palestinians will get independence with thec co-operation of elite and intellectual israelis as no rule sanctions the use of violence against old unarmed ladies and children i m earnestly praying for the day when will co-exist pecefully and amicably as two sovereign nation

      Reply to Comment
    5. Shahar

      Really, 972..It’s nice that you post voices that counter the mainstream, but you should hold yourself accountable for journalistic integrity. If the writer doesn’t state all of the facts, or misleads, your editors should tell the rest of the truth in brackets. He claimed that Palestinians don’t want to drive us to the sea, which may be true for a few peace activists, but the forces in power (mostly Hamas and Fatach who will be beat by Hamas as soon as they stop getting foreign money) are very open about their genocidal intentions. The suffering is the direct result of a war that Palestinians perpetuate because they can’t stand the thought of a Jewish nation on once Muslim land. Just like Muslims have a few homelands, Jews deserve one where we can define our lives and defend ourselves after centuries of pogroms, holocaust and inquisitions. This would end if the Arabs would actually accept Israel. All of our lives would be better.

      He further lied saying that Israel initiated 3 wars on Gaza since 2005. Each of these wars was in response to months of rocket fire at civilians from Gaza . That rocket fire was what initiated the wars. I don’t know how many more lies this author is spreading, but it’s a shame that he does it on 972 without the editors taking any reaponsibility.

      This certainly isn’t the first time I’ve read such misleading and one sided commentary on your site and it makes me not want to read. I might just read so that I can do what your editors aren’t doing.

      Reply to Comment
    6. Tom

      western and costal*

      Reply to Comment
    7. Tom

      @Ido, by the way it’s so funny you take Sderot and Kiryat Malhaki as an exemple, because both has been built next to old palestinian villages (Najd and Qastina), both located in the arab alocated state !!!!!
      Please look at the map https://zochrot.org/en/keyword/45323

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        “both located in the arab alocated state” – I meant to give an example far away from central Israel and Tel-Aviv, showing how you were wrong about the housing issue. Pick any place in the Negev then. And if you check many so called “Palestinian” towns and villages you’ll see their original Jewish Hebrew name.
        Some examples: Hebron, actually an ancient Jewish city populated by Jews throughout history, name taken from the Hebrew word Chevron or Chaver, which means friend.
        Nablus, built on Shechem, Selum was Shilo, Tequa is Tekoa, Batir was Beitar, etc.

        Reply to Comment
    8. Tom

      @Ido :
      “Golan, Shomron, South of the Kineret ” Golan was part of Syria, Shomron part of West Bank, and the South of Kineret was full of depopulated palestinian villages. Obviously, you have read too much propaganda and you know nothing about the arab history of Israel before the Nakba. You should start checking on INakba. There was very, very, few arab-free areas in the Mandatory Palestine to expend the jewish settlements, exept in the Negev.

      “why not assume that after 4 generations of peace there would be water based agreements between the local countries ?” Because your neighbors don’t have water to sell as they are living in sever scarcity. The Jordan valley is drying and the dead sea is dying because of over exploitation of the tiberiad lake and yamouk river)

      The Peel commission has proposed a transfer of population in 1938. So it was in the mind of the great leaders of Israel. They was pragmatic and smart regarding the threat of the arab demography in the future jewish state. 58% of jewish people is a very short majority and a danger for the futur state of Israel.

      The ethnical cleaning during the war, was the best opportunity for getting arab-free lands, that have absorb most of the jewish immigration. The situation would have been much more difficult for Israel to maitain a jewish majority without it.

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        “Golan was part of Syria, Shomron part of West Bank, and the South of Kineret was full of depopulated palestinian villages” – Look again at the Jewish Partition. You’re right about the Golan, I meant the area above the Kineret. As said I was referring to all the area within the Jewish part of the partition. Area that was going to be part of the Jewish state.
        “Obviously, you have read too much propaganda” – hilarious coming from you after everything you said, including linking pro-Palestinian propaganda site. Obviously you weren’t aware of all the areas within the Jewish part of the Partition.
        “know nothing about the arab history of Israel before the Nakba” – like the wild guesses you made above about an alternate time-line, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
        “You should start checking on INakba” – What makes you think I’m not aware of the Arab towns and villages in Palestine, existing before the Arab nations tried to destroy Israel and genocide the Jews ? I mentioned the post-wars populations shifts about 7 times I believe.
        “There was very, very, few arab-free areas in the Mandatory Palestine” – as I mentioned before, the Partition was based on population allocation, most on land not owned by Arabs, owned by the people who actually controlled the region.
        Maybe if the Arabs didn’t try to destroy Israel and kill the Jews things would have been a lot different.
        “Because your neighbors don’t have water to sell” – as I said before, water related agreements about distribution exist between Israel, Jordan and the PA. In peace time maybe the Arab states would have focused on technology to resolve the problem like Israel is doing, instead of focusing on eliminating Israel.
        “The Peel commission has proposed a transfer of population in 1938” – correct, an idea to stop riots and pogroms. Similar to the situation with Turkey and Greece. But the Palestine Partition Commission dropped the idea of a population transfer and went with the Partition Plan.
        “So it was in the mind of the great leaders of Israel” – yes, re-creating Israel in the homeland of the Jewish people was perceived as a positive for Jews, who would have guessed.
        “The ethnical cleaning during the war, was the best opportunity for getting arab-free lands” – Again: addressed this in detail above multiple times, about the result of the war, the population shifts, etc. There was as “ethnic cleansing” of Jews from all over the Arab/Islamic world, more than the Arabs in Palestine.
        “The situation would have been much more difficult for Israel to maitain a jewish majority without it” – Again addressed this at least 5 times above. Not going to repeat myself. Go read it again.

        Reply to Comment
    9. tom

      @Ido :

      It really clear for everybody than among the 93% remaining land, there was a lot of state land. But first, a lot of state land was cultivitated without being registrated (especially around depopulated palestinian villages). And second, in a democratical 43% arabs country, state land doesn’t mean jewish state !

      So how to absorb the jewish immigration (needed to maitain the small jewish majority) without population and land transfer ? “there were uninhabited areas everywhere.” But where ?? Give some real exemple ! Because for now, all the exemple you gave was on the ruins of palestinian cities and villages, or in the arab allocated state, or in the Negev !

      Reply to Comment
      • Ido

        You once again confuse 2 different things, the state owned land I was talking about was to counter your claim about Arab owned land, as if the Jews took land owned by Arabs who now call themselves Palestinians.
        Post-Partition, if it existed, it was going to be land owned by the Jewish state.
        “a lot of state land was cultivitated without being registrated” – you mean Arabs took land not belonging to them ? OK.
        “43% arabs country, state land doesn’t mean jewish state” – non-private was going to be land owned by the newly formed Jewish state. Just like in any other country.
        “So how to absorb the jewish immigration” – I literally went over this exact point about 10 times, not going to repeat myself.
        “But where ?? Give some real exemple !” – take a look at the map you yourself asked me to look at, see those areas between 2 cities/town where nothing exists ?
        “was on the ruins of palestinian cities and villages” – nope, I believe only one town. And as I pointed out 3 times I believe, many of those Palestinian cities and villages sit on ruins of older Jewish villages and towns.

        Reply to Comment
    10. Click here to load previous comments