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Abbas just shot the Palestinian cause in the foot

He needs the world to win independence for his nation, and in the eyes of the world, Hamas, with whom he just joined forces, is anathema.

I’m truly hoping that there’s some deep strategic genius on Mahmoud Abbas’ part that I’m missing here, because I keep turning it around and I can’t escape the impression that he has shot the cause of Palestinian independence in the foot by signing a reconciliation agreement with Hamas. And just when the Palestinians seemed ready to go on the march.

The world, including even Washington, blames Israel for the failure of the Kerry peace talks, which means that after their allotted time runs out on April 29, Abbas can go to the UN and turn the world more and more strongly against the occupation, which would set off a chain reaction of international sanctions and boycotts – everybody sees this, everybody is warning Israel about it. But now Abbas has gone and joined forces with Hamas, which has a terrible image in the world – one that’s entirely deserved. If Hamas were to recognize Israel and endorse the two-state solution and agree to land swaps on the West Bank and to compromise on the right of return, as Abbas and the Palestinian Authority have done, then Abbas would have co-opted Hamas in Wednesday’s unity deal, he would have dragged it into moderation, he would have achieved a great coup and would deserve the Nobel Peace Prize.

But does anyone believe that that’s what Hamas is going to do – in other words commit political and, in their eyes, moral, suicide? No, Hamas is going to remain more or less Hamas, a militant Islamist outfit with violently anti-Semitic language in its charter. In terms of winning international support for a Palestinian state alongside Israel, which remains Abbas’ goal, Hamas is an albatross on his back. It’s not just the U.S. which demands that Hamas change its spots as the price of recognition, it’s also the European Union, the United Nations and Russia – the rest of the Mideast Quartet – which Abbas obviously needs in his corner. He had them, too, until Wednesday afternoon when the deal with Hamas was struck – but now?

Netanyahu and Abbas in Washington, September 15, 2010 (State Dept. Photo)

Netanyahu and Abbas in Washington, September 15, 2010 (State Dept. Photo)

It’s one thing to sell Mahmoud Abbas and the subjugated Palestinians to the world; it’s another thing to sell the world Hamas.

I dread the thought of what Bibi Netanyahu and his movement are going to do with this. I’m getting a lousy feeling.

Why did Abbas do it? For Palestinian unity? Great. There’s been no Palestinian unity for seven years; he couldn’t have waited until he won some victories in the international arena, until he gathered some momentum so maybe he could knock over Hamas in Gaza and unify the Palestinians behind something good?

Maybe Abbas thinks unity with Hamas is, in the words of a Palestinian official quoted by Haaretz, a “retort to all those in Israel who said peace is impossible as long as the Palestinian Authority does not control the Strip.” But if the idea is to take away one of Israel’s talking points, bringing in Hamas is not the way to do it. And if Abbas’ intention is to speak to the world on behalf of the West Bank and Gaza instead of just the West Bank, again, he has a much better chance of getting the world on his side at the start without being weighed down by Hamas. Gaza can wait; the world won’t.

Or maybe, at 79, Abbas is getting ready to pass the baton to a new leadership in Ramallah, and he wants to leave this unity behind; maybe this is his idea of a legacy. If that’s so, I just think he’s making a huge error in his choice of legacies. Even the Palestinian public, which wants Fatah-Hamas reconciliation very badly, isn’t impressed by this deal, according to Amira Hass.

By rights, the unity pact with Hamas, or the beginning of one, should not compromise the Palestinians’ case for independence, which is impeccable. By rights, the world should say, “Let’s go on dealing with Abbas, and so long as Hamas doesn’t interfere with him, it doesn’t interfere with us.” By rights, though, the world should sanction Israel until it ends the blockade of Gaza and starts dismantling the occupation of the West Bank – but the world does not operate according to right. In the world as it is, the Palestinians are very, very weak, and they need international support, most of all from the West, to win their freedom. In the eyes of the world, especially the West, Hamas is anathema – yet that’s what Abbas and the Palestinians have attached themselves to. And just when the world was beckoning to them.

Ever since hearing the news of this deal yesterday, I’ve been trying to find the positive side of it for the Palestinians’ movement for independence, which, as far as I’m concerned, is congruent with Israel’s movement for decency. But finally I just don’t see it; what I see is a grave miscalculation. I’ve been wrong plenty of times in my opinions, and I’ve admitted as much plenty of times, too. I’d very much like this to be one of those times.

More from +972 on the reconciliation deal:
Why Fatah-Hamas reconciliation might just work this time
If you believe in peace, the Fatah-Hamas deal is good news

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    COMMENTS

    1. Rab

      Larry, why are you trying to find a positive side?

      Permit me to help you out. The Palestinian cause is dead in the water and has been for decades for two key reasons. The first is that their leadership lies all the time. The second is that they are seeking Israel’s destruction.

      I’m not sure what you’re seeking here. Are you hoping for peace? You’re not going to get it with liars who want to destroy Israel. Are you looking to see Israel screwed somehow as some cosmic punishment for sins you consider irreparable? I think Israel’s already paid that price. There are cemeteries filled with your neighbors’ sons, not to mention the families who have lost loved ones to terror attacks.

      Stop supporting murderers. If you want to see peace and good things happen to average, every day Palestinians, you would do well to stop empowering their leadership. All those guys want to do is maintain the status quo.

      Reply to Comment
      • Felix Reichert

        Yeah.
        Those pesky Palestinian’ liars with their crooked noses and poisoned wells.
        Sure can’t trust them!

        Reply to Comment
      • Steve B

        You are 100% correct. When I read this column, my first thought was, “what side is Derfner on?”.

        Reply to Comment
      • Hernan Tasies

        Nonsense, you keep on repeating that bile and tripe. It’s rhetoric over reality, right wing Zionist propagandist constantly whine about the Hamas charter all the while it’s been Israel that has destroyed, neutered, occupied, dismantled, ethnically cleansed, and colonized Palestine. All that’s required is a quick glimpe at the map to realize what the Zionist aim has been.

        Reply to Comment
        • Rab

          I’m right wing? Oh. I thought I was a centrist. On the other hand, you’re an apologist for terrorists.

          Oh, and I don’t know how to tell you this, but if it weren’t for the Arab aim to destroy Israel or, before that, to prevent a Jewish state, then there would be a much tinier Israel today, possibly one with an Arab majority. You blew it in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2001, 2008 and 2014.

          Reply to Comment
          • Well, Hamas has harbored terrorists, I suppose. But then Israel has had two PMs who were well known terrorists in the opre-state days (Shamir, Begin) and one who many consider a terrorist (Sharon). The ICC may one day decide that quite a few Israeli leaders were war-criminals.

            This game is not a game of patty-cake.

            So, yes, facts and name-calling are all very well, but, at the end of the day, so what? Hamas is part of the Palestinian polity, just as a lot of irredentists are part of Israeli polity (they want to recover the “Israel” (or something, whatever) from 2000-3000 years ago. The Palestinians want to recover something from 66 years ago.

            Irredentists, all!

            Reply to Comment
          • Rab

            Yeah, right, “Hamas has harbored terrorists,” you suppose.

            Hamas are terrorists. Period.

            And these terrorists are guilty of thousands – literally thousands – of war crimes.

            Reply to Comment
    2. DANIEL GAVRON

      Larry, I’m disappointed in you.

      When there is no PLO-Hamass agreement, how can Abbas negotiate peace, because he doesn’t represent all the Palestinians?

      When there is an agreement, how can Israel negotiate with a body that includes Hamas?

      So when CAN there be negotiations?
      Never?

      The two-state solution is dead in the water; the one-state solution never got INTO the water.

      Damned if you do; damned if you don’t, just what are the Palestinians supposed to do? Will somebody enlighten me?

      Reply to Comment
      • Danny, it’s not about negotiating with Israel now, that’s obviously futile – it’s about building international pressure on Israel to end the occupation, which will take years, but which Hamas can only screw up, at least an unreconstruced Hamas, which is what it is now.

        Reply to Comment
        • Goldmarx

          The Palestinians are better off with a united leadership, all else being equal.

          If being partners with Abbas makes Hamas more responsible, so be it.

          Reply to Comment
        • daniel gavron

          Hamas is virtually reconstituted already. It is on record as agreeing to a five-year hudna and also on record as agreeing to the PLO-Israel negotiations. That’s plenty to be getting on with, Larry, apart from which, if it will “take years,” there is plenty of time. You have not convinced me that Abu Mazen isn’t right on target and doing the best thing for his people. Sadly we Israelis are not even lining up any targets. We are pathetic.

          Reply to Comment
    3. shachalnur

      Larry,

      You’re clueless.

      The UN created Israel ,the UN enabled the occupayion and humilation of Palestinians,the UN is controlled by forces that are enemies to Israel and Palestinians alike.

      As long as you don’t entertain the possibilty that Israel ,PA and Hamas are collaborating to get the US out of the region,you’ll stay clueless.

      Israel and the Pa will do anything to stop the US from forcing them into an agreement that will only cause more wars and bloodshed.

      You should educate yourself in the Global Chessgame(Zbigniew Brzezinski dixit),pre 1948 Zionist history and the London Bankers to have an idea what’s happening right now.

      Reply to Comment
    4. Ben Zakkai

      It’s possible to engage in endless head-scratching over tactical choices made by political leaders, but understanding their motives is hard and predicting outcomes is impossible. It does make sense, more or less, for the Palestinians to have unified political leadership, come what may. And maybe new elections to see what the Palestinian public wants in 2014?

      Reply to Comment
    5. Weissman

      There will never be a Palestinian state alongside Israel ever. The israelis wont allow it. In that case, why not reconcile? If there are fresh elections (skeptical of course) then that will be the legitimate leaders of palestine because abbas is illegitimate and he knows this…how could he hold new elections without gazan votes? After that, have hamas revise its damn charter lol. Or the funding will slowly wane…especially with hamas on the bad side of the western world and the quote unquote arab world.

      Reply to Comment
    6. YAG

      I am obviously not aware of any hidden strategy behind this, therefore I suggest we stick to what was proclaimed at the hour of announcing the deal. And if I got it right, the main objective is to organize full fledge elections on both territories after an interim period of 6 months. That will certainly renew the legitimacy of Abbas should he score significantly against Hamas. The peace talks being clearly in an impasse, wouldn’t you attempt to have it all, i.e. international recognition over both territories?

      Reply to Comment
    7. Danny

      Larry, from where I’m standing, Hamas looks downright moderate compared to Israel. True, it suffers from bad PR, and has a bad image problem that is mainly due to propaganda perpetuated against it by Israel and the U.S. But, when you judge Hamas by its deeds and actions, it has been, throughout recent history at least, the most pragmatic actor in these parts. Add to that the fact that Hamas’ integrity eclipses both the PA’s and definitely Israel’s, and you arrive at the conclusion that it is a partner the U.S. should strive to negotiate with, at least indirectly. If Hamas is unholy to even talk to, then so is Likud!

      Reply to Comment
      • Tzutzik

        “Larry, from where I’m standing, Hamas looks downright moderate compared to Israel.”

        That says more about your own lack of moderation than Israel’s, Danny.

        Reply to Comment
        • Y-Man

          People make a big deal about how Hamas’ charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Likud’s charter explicitly calls for there to never, ever be a Palestinian state. One side shoots rockets from refugee camps and wears keffiyehs, the other side wears suits and drops white phosphorus and holds fundraisers in New York City and Los Angeles.

          Reply to Comment
          • IlonJ

            “People make a big deal about how Hamas’ charter calls for the destruction of Israel”

            The difference is that Likud wasn’t always in power. But Palestinians never wanted to make peace even when Israeli left wingers ran Israel.

            Reply to Comment
          • Goldmarx

            Please, let’s not romanticize the Labor Party. They turned down many offers of peace from the Arab side as well. And it was clear from Arafat and Rabin’s handshake and the Oslo Accords that the Palestinians wanted peace.

            Reply to Comment
          • Rab

            Wow. They turned down many offers of peace? Which ones?

            Reply to Comment
          • IlonJ

            When the truth hurts your story just change the facts to suit yourself.

            Revisionist historians are live and kicking.

            Reply to Comment
    8. Larry, what happened to you? You know that there is no chance of a two-state deal with the current Israeli govt. You also know that no deal is better than a rotten deal. You also know that the opposition to Hamas in the world is very soft, and could easily melt away under the right circumstances, just as it did when Egypt elected the Muslim Brotherhood. And finally, you also know that Hamas has the support of a lot of Palestinians and is a legitimate expression of their people, in the same way that the Likud is a legitimate expression of the Israeli electorate, though I can’t stand either.
      Bottom line: without Palestinian unity — and, frankly, I doubt this will bring it — the Palestinians are weak. Better unity, better unilateralism, better all options on the table (from armed self-defense to BDS, with tactical reasons supporting the latter at the present time) in order to level the playing field.
      All that said, I don’t really believe in these unity moves, unfortunately. Both Hamas and the PA share one thing in common — they profit from the Occupation. They’re both at the moment Israeli subcontractors.

      Reply to Comment
      • Joe

        Unfortunately (because of the pessimistic future) such an accurate analysis.

        Reply to Comment
      • Rab

        And yet people such as you continue to do the bidding of these corrupt Palestinian groups and leaders, despite the fact that you know well that “civil Palestinian society” is under their thumb and isn’t getting out from under it any time soon.

        When you sit there, along with Larry, and do this calculus that Israel is so evil it must be fought and undermined, how do you square your supposed high morals with the fact that all you’re doing is strengthening the hands of the worst actors in Palestinian society? Plugging your nose is not a defense.

        Reply to Comment
    9. The move has been reported in Europe as positive news. There is a growing understanding in the public that Israel is the party that makes a two-state solution fail.
      Hamas was elected in 2006 and is still a political force; it is far better to integrate them than to ostracize them.

      Reply to Comment
    10. Richard Lightbown

      I know this may not be obvious from some of my past posts, but I actually have a lot of respect for you Larry. That said, you do write some weird things sometimes.

      For example you link to Amira Hass who wrote “The Palestinians welcomed the declaration of the agreement (or the agreement to implement an agreement) with skepticism and caution. They know, or at least sense, the obstacles to its implementation. They know that Israel may take revenge for the reconciliation efforts, and that the United States also opposes them. But if they believe that both sides are honestly taking this step as a way to strengthen the Palestinians internally, they will be willing to bear the consequences of any Israeli or American punishment.” Then you sum this up by saying “Even the Palestinian public[…]isn’t impressed with this deal according to Amria Hass.” I don’t see that as an accurate précis myself, so perhaps we’ll have to disagree.

      I also don’t buy into this perpetual bogeyman image of Hamas either. Let’s face it they live in a rough neighbourhood and the local bully doesn’t play by any rules. Nothing, absolutely nothing is verboten. I have watched a Youtube video of an Israeli DIME bomb attack where they needed two stretchers to take away the various bits of one person. I can give you the link to a picture of the blackened body of an infant (probably less than a year old) which I presume was the result of a white phosphorus attack. I’ve seen, physically, Al-Quds hospital after it was attacked by white phosphorus and an Australian eye witness (i.e. native English speaker) told us about evacuating the hospital of its 50 bed-ridden patients at night, not knowing if they would be attacked in the street. And more, oh so much more through decades of state terror. Just what do you expect Hamas to be after nearly a century of Jewish terror? Just give me the answer Larry, cos honestly I am too dumb to work this out for myself. (And hasbara posters can go to Hell, I know your dumb-arsed answers already)

      Reply to Comment
    11. Kim Nguyen

      Oh, please! To please “the world” that is under the thrall of Israel/US and those who believe the lie that Hamas means nothing but terror, and not a political force, nearly 3 million people should be left behind? Think again! ALL Palestinians need to unite to force justice, equality and peace in the land! Let’s hope a new and more representative party emerges before the elections.

      Reply to Comment
      • Marcos

        Interesting perspective from Saigon

        Reply to Comment
    12. John Deng

      “If Hamas were to recognize Israel and endorse the two-state solution and agree to land swaps on the West Bank and to compromise on the right of return, as Abbas and the Palestinian Authority have done” – Larry, I don’t know whether you are just articulating some version of ‘the international consensus’ or you believe that Hamas’ starting position should be to make all of the concessions which a two-state solution must conclude with at the outset; Israel has not made the reciprocal concessions, and clearly will not do so until there is a comprehensive peace agreement. If Hamas’ starting position were to be those – what do they negotiate? The Israeli negotiating teams see making any of those concessions as only an absolutely last resort, which hopefully Israel will make. Hamas would be fools to start with those positions and end up in as weak a negotiating position as the PA – concessions on right of return become the complete abrogation of that right, even on a symbolic level; land ‘swaps’ become the unequal exchange of land illegally gained by force, that is deemed economically (water) or strategically (military) significant for strips with little to recommend them except perhaps their Arab-Israeli residents who have expressed little desire to be transferred to a Palestinian state; recognition of Israel (and again there is no meaningful recognition of Palestine) becomes recognition of Israel as a the Jewish State. Hamas has made conciliatory noises, and although it has not excised from its charter the anti-semitic motifs, many an Isralie politician or public figure has made equally terrible remarks. The conduct of Hamas within its own borders, though rotten, cannot be a justification for denying it seat at the negotiating table (or at least the ability to pass notes to those who sit there) – it must be judged on its conduct with regards to external actors.
      Abbas is right to seek unity with Hamas, a relatively moderate outfit which seems to be ready for a settlement in line with the Arab Peace Initiative. This is in line with the “Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine” motion tabled annually,which recognises Israel within its 67 borders, whilst maintaining the right of return of refugees and some restitution for the palestinians. This motion is supported by almost every member of the UN GA, including Iran, Hamas’ most prominent backer.

      Beside who is right and who is wrong, Abbas does not have the authority to negotiate on behalf of all Palestinians as a president whose terms has expired and whose party lost the last elections. Capitulation and timidity has brought the Palestinians not one jot of progress.

      Finally, Gaza cannot wait, and though I am sure you did not mean it to sound so callous, ending the flagrantly illegal and inhumane siege of Gaza must be an absolute priority – that the PA has allowed Gaza to rot and spoken up so little on behalf of its residents is a stain on their conscience.

      Finally Abbas may be making some actual decisions which put him in a position to negotiate meaningfully with Israel

      Reply to Comment
    13. Philos

      I think it’s time to wheel out the “real” Mandela quotes that were recently whitewashed out of history.

      “What freedom am I being offered while the organisation of the people [ANC] remains banned? Only free men can negotiate. A prisoner cannot enter into contracts.”

      Reply to Comment
      • Rab

        Mandela indeed:

        “As a movement, we recognise the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism just as we recognise the legitimacy of Zionism as a Jewish nationalism. We insist on the right of the state of Israel to exist within secure borders but with equal vigour support the Palestinian right to national self-determination.”

        Reply to Comment
        • Philos

          That was President Mandela you’re quoting. The man who failed to live up to his promise of social justice and economic equality in South Africa. The “real” Mandela is below.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5TiUhhm7cQ

          Reply to Comment
          • IlonJ

            An obviously edited video. There were a couple of gaps followed by out of context responses.

            One has to wonder what Mandela said in those deleted segments.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            This is one of the first thing that Mandela said in that video:

            “Our attitude to any country is determined by THEIR attitude to our country”

            I couldn’t agree with him more. One has to wonder why SOME Jewish/Israeli leftists don’t heed that principle for us? Why do they choose to side with our enemies?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            You know, Philos, how I know that we Zionists are right?

            Because all the extremists hate us. Both the leftie extremists (on sites like these) and the rabid right wing Nazi like extremists hate us. Here, read what one of their screaming headline said about us after Mandela died:

            “NELSON MANDELA WAS A COMMUNIST TERRORIST BACKED BY ZIONISTS”

            http://www.blacklistednews.com/Nelson_Mandela_Was_A_Communist_Terrorist_Backed_By_Zionists/30938/0/5/5/Y/M.html

            Conversely, both left wing and right wing extremists support the Palestinian Arabs. What does that then say about the Palestinian Arabs?

            Reply to Comment
    14. Samuel

      It is both amusing (in an odd sort of way) and revealing what the various posts on this thread say.

      Some say that the reconciliation is a good thing because without it peace with Israel would not have been possible because Abbas lacked legitimacy.

      Some say that it is a bad thing because the presence of Hamas will Lower the credibility of the Palestinians internationally.

      Some openly predict that the standards of the international community will adjust to the new reality.

      Some say that Hamas was right all along and the PA’s approach was a denial of the legitimate claims of the Palestinians.

      One thing is for sure. You have all revealed yourselves now completely. According to the posters on this site, no matter what, Israel is always in the wrong. At least it is all out in the open now. The bias and the hatred towards Israel.

      People like me always argued that it’s all academic, peace at this time is not possible because even if the PA would really be a peace making party (which I doubt), Hamas would scuttle any deal. I was either ignored or rebuked. But now it is all out in the open, even you people admit that people like me were right.

      As for what I think will happen now? I think that the only way peace might come some day is if Hamas would either radically change itself or if it would disappear. I ask, how likely it is in the near future?

      Reply to Comment
    15. Luca

      “In in the eyes of the world, Hamas, with whom he just joined forces, is anathema” you write.

      Sorry to wake you from your dream, dude, but you do not represent the world and it is possible you do not even represent that demographic of short white people in the world. You are just a guy making it all up.

      In your shoes I would go easy on the big rhetoric for spell, or at least start the next story with “anathema in the eyes of my friends and relatives”. It is less impressive, I grant you, but it has the great benefit of being true. Which is perfect if you are doing journalism rather than propaganda.

      Reply to Comment
    16. Luca

      “In in the eyes of the world, Hamas, with whom he just joined forces, is anathema”, you write.

      Sorry to wake you up dude, but you do not represent “the world” and it is possible you do not even represent that demographic of “short white people in the world”. You are just a guy making it all up.

      In your shoes I would go easy on the big rhetoric for spell, or at least start the next story with “anathema in the eyes of my friends and relatives …”

      It is less impressive, I grant you, but it has the great benefit of being true. Which is perfect if you are doing journalism rather than propaganda.

      Reply to Comment
    17. Richard Witty

      On other sites, I’ve had some dialog with right-wing Israelis, some that are advocates of the Bennett area c annexation proposal and some are advocates of the Glick west bank annexation proposal (tricky Glick, alternates between “full civil rights” for all in the West Bank, to “some more equal than others”.

      Those theories have gained an audience in Israel. Those that even consider them, mostly convince themselves that they are feasible and legal.

      In any case, I can’t say that the Fatah-Hamas unity pact is a direct response to those Israeli proposals, but my sense is that a purpose of the Hamas/Fatah discussions are to assert that Palestine is not sliceable into two Palestinian states, that Gaza and the West Bank are one people, not two.

      That didn’t have to be. If Netanyahu had stopped settlement construction, Israel and the PA could be in discussions for a decade, and Gaza would remain as it is.

      That is over. The PA grew utterly impatient with Netanyahu.

      Noone knows what will happen next.

      If the unity holds, cemented by Israeli punitive measures, then its an open question of whether the PA goes to the UN, or the street.

      Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        Yes I love this blame Netanyahu bit.

        Even if true, what happened before Netanyahu?

        There was wall to wall rejectionism by the Palestinian Arabs ever since 1947.

        In between 1947 and now, there were major opportunities to end this WAR, the occupation and to have two states. In 1967, in 2000 in 2001 (Taba) in 2008 when Abbas too kept up the tradition to go for broke.

        Yet for some people somehow the Palestinians are totally blameless. Those people don’t contribute to peace. They are responsible for people like me having turned gradually from a relative moderate to a hardliner. And we have votes.

        Reply to Comment
    18. Johnboy

      The key to all this isn’t the bluster coming from Netanyahu’s office – which was predictable in the extreme.

      The key is what is coming out of the State Department – whether it mimicked the Israelis outrage, or whether it simply shrugs the shoulders and says “well, whadda’ thunk was gunna’ happen?”

      So far it has been the latter i.e. the State Dept has expressed “disappointment” regarding this reconciliation, not “outrage”.

      The spokesmodel has described it as “unhelpful”, she has not described it as “unacceptable”.

      And if that sounds familiar, that’s because it is: those are the same words that the State Dept uses to describe Israeli settlement construction, and so it means the same thing i.e. however weakly the USA protests, it isn’t *actually* going to do anything about a unity govt.

      That should have Netanyahu worried. Indeed, it should have him very worried indeed, and it should get Larry to stop hyperventilating over this.

      If the USA isn’t fussed about this (and, again, it hasn’t done anything to suggest that it is fussed) then the EU certainly isn’t going to be fussed either.

      Reply to Comment
      • Tzutzik

        “That should have Netanyahu worried. Indeed, it should have him very worried indeed, and it should get Larry to stop hyperventilating over this.”

        Why?

        Reply to Comment
        • Johnboy

          Why? Because Netanyahu will attempt to use this reconciliation as the excuse to blame ABBAS for rejecting any possibility of a peace deal with Israel.

          But that won’t fly if the USA refuses to join Israel in that chorus.

          If the USA says it’s “disappointed” – but no more than that – with Fatah joining into a unity government with Hamas then nobody is going to buy Netanyahu’s line.

          The EU won’t.
          The UN won’t.
          Nobody will.

          And it isn’t enough for Netanyahu to convince his home-grown constituency that Abbas Is To Blame!!!

          That’s pretty much meaningless, since his home-grown constituency isn’t about to start sanctioning, boycotting or divesting itself.

          It’s the EU that he has to worry about. It’s the Rest of The World that he has to convince.

          And if the USA remains unconvinced (and, again, they aren’t making a song-and-dance over this move of Abbas) then nobody else is either.

          That’s got to worry Bibi, because that’s his Big Card to play against BDS.

          Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “That’s got to worry Bibi, because that’s his Big Card to play against BDS.”

            Nope.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Oh, OK, if you say so….

            Reply to Comment
    19. Tzutzik

      “Why? Because Netanyahu will attempt to use this reconciliation as the excuse to blame ABBAS for rejecting any possibility of a peace deal with Israel.”

      He won’t have to. Hamas won’t let Abbas negotiate. But if they will then Israel won’t be expected to give up land without the Palis at least recognising Israel.

      Do you think Hamas will?

      In any case, elections will be held within 6 months. Supposedly at least. Nothing will happen before then. Who do you think will come out the winners in those elections? Hamas? Or Fatah?

      In the unlikely event that it will be Fatah, do you think Hamas will accept that result? I don’t. And then what, JB?

      On the other hand if Hamas wins, then what, JB?

      Reply to Comment
      • Johnboy

        Oh, OK, if you say so….

        Reply to Comment
        • Tzutzik

          You obviously don’t think so JB but you are in for another disappointment. Once again your wet dream will not come true. You won’t live to see Israel destroyed. How many times has it been now?

          Never mind, you’ll get over this disappointment too. You are used to it, you have had lots of practice. But believe me you are a thousand times better off this way. Have you ever heard the saying be careful what you wish for, you might not like it if you get it? Think about it JB. What do you think I am hinting at?

          Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Man, you have been bust: so many straw men in one post.

            I have no desire “to see Israel destroyed”.

            None whatsoever.

            But unlike you I do understand that Israel’s policies are making that inevitable, and there is no sign that Israel’s “leaders” have even the slightest glimmer of understanding of that fact.

            Israel has a chance to have a viable, sovereign Palestine living alongside it, and if that happens then Israel’s future is as assured as any other country.

            But that state must be VIABLE, and it must be SOVEREIGN, and it is obvious to everyone that outcome is utterly and completely unacceptable to the regime that rules in Jerusalem.

            Israel will do everything that it can to prevent that outcome.

            OK, fine, but by doing so Israel’s leadership is galloping towards a cliff, and idiots like yourself actually think that the speed of that headlong rush is a *good* sign.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “I have no desire “to see Israel destroyed”.

            Sorry, didn’t I read you advocating BDS on Israel? You sounded positively thrilled by the possibility of it. You do know what the BDSers advocate, don’t you? They advocate the so called Right of Return. And you do know what that would mean for Israel, don’t you JB? It would mean Israel’s destruction.

            Therefore, Your protest that you don’t advocate Israel’s destruction sounds hollow.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            “Sorry, didn’t I read you advocating BDS on Israel?”

            No, but I do recognize the inevitability of the BDS campaign gaining traction, in *exactly* the same way that the BDS campaign inevitably gained traction in the fight against apartheid.

            But, please, why is the BDS campaign an attempt “to see Israel destroyed”?

            Boycott, divestment and sanctions eventually brought an end to apartheid in South Africa but, so sorry, last time I checked “South Africa” is still there.

            But, heck, even the Afrikaners could distinguish between “the state” and “the ruling regime”.

            But a Zionist?

            Eh, them, not so much….

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “But, please, why is the BDS campaign an attempt “to see Israel destroyed”?”

            Keep hustling JB. We are not white South Afrikaners who were never a persecuted people. We are descendants of Jews who barely more than a generation ago just managed to survive the genocide that the ancestors of today’s ‘would be’ BDSers keep on threatening us with. And before that too, during our 2000 years of exile our life was not all that pleasant either in Europe or in Arab lands.

            Sooooooo my opinionated friend. We are not going back to that. Which bit of Never again don’t you want to understand? We either survive as a Jewish majority in our own state or there will be hell to pay for almost everyone. Maybe Americans, Australians and Newzealanders will not feel the effects so much. But the rest, particularly BDSErs will not succeed to do to us what their ancestors did to us without having to pay a price this time.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Wasn’t it the Zionists in the US(not Europe) that called for a boycott of the Nazi’s in 1933?

            check your favorite disinfo site wikipedia at”Anti-Nazi boycott of 1933″.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            I don’t need to check it. Have you got a problem with what they did?

            If you do then why? Did you feel sorry for the Nazis?

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Tzutznik: “I don’t need to check it. Have you got a problem with what they did?”

            And UP it goes! It’s huge, it’s impressive, and it’s oh-so-full of straw.

            Tzutzik: “If you do then why? Did you feel sorry for the Nazis?”

            And there we have it – a classic illustration of why someone goes to the trouble of constructing a straw man.

            Tzutzik erects it so that he can put words into its mouth (“If you do then why?”), and then proceeds to “demolish” that argument (“Did you feel sorry for the Nazis?”).

            Even though, of course, he is arguing with himself, whoever much he pretends otherwise.

            Apparently it is Tzutzik’s one and only party trick…..

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “Even though, of course, he is arguing with himself, whoever much he pretends otherwise.”

            I wasn’t talking to you you twit. I responded to Shakhanur’s inane observation.

            You are not the only one who posts here JB. You have fellow idiots like Shakhalnur. Actually, sorry for offending you. You are not quite as idiotic as he is. He is in a class of his own.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Tzutzik: “I wasn’t talking to you you twit.”

            Ad-hom.

            Tzutzik: “I responded to Shakhanur’s inane observation.”

            Non-sequitur.

            That you were “responding to Shakhanur’s post” (tho’ in reality you weren’t) is irrelevant, since all I was doing was pointing out that your post to Shakhanur was…. a straw man.

            Mainly because your post to Shakhanur was….. a straw man.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Tzutzik: “I wasn’t talking to you you twit.”

            JB:”Ad-hom.”

            Yep, in the same way that you called me an idiot earlier.

            Tzutzik: “I responded to Shakhanur’s inane observation.”

            JB:”Non-sequitur.”

            Why? Because your royal opinionated self says so?

            I’ll tell you what. I will not debate with you what I say to Shakhalnur. So you are welcome to stay out of it. Of course if you don’t, then I don’t care either. But I’ll tell you what, you are beginning to catch up to Shakhalnur.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Why are you even pretending that you are debating me, Tzutzik?

            All you are doing is erecting a series of straw-men and then knocking them down again.

            It’s an easy thing to do, sure, it is, but it is also an utterly pointless tactic.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Here, Tzutzik, let me show you how “debate” is supposed to work…

            T: “We are not white South Afrikaners who were never a persecuted people.”

            That’s a non-sequitur.

            Whether (or not) the Afrikaners were ever persecuted makes no difference to the legitimacy of that BDS campaign.

            The aim of that campaign was to Get Apartheid South Africa To Stop Doing Something It Shouldn’t Be Doing, the aim wasn’t to “persecute” the Afrikaners.

            T: ” We are descendants of Jews who barely more than a generation ago just managed to survive the genocide that the ancestors of today’s ‘would be’ BDSers keep on threatening us with.”

            Again, nonsense, since you are insisting that the purpose of BDS is to visit another Holocaust on the Jewish people.

            It isn’t. The aim of BDS is to stop Israel from Doing Something It Shouldn’t Be Doing, it isn’t to “persecute” the Jews.

            You are playing that tired old Zionist trick of substituting the words “Israel” and “Jews” as and when convenient, as if those two words mean the same thing.

            They don’t.

            Israel is “a state”, and it must behave according to the rules that govern the behaviour of “states”.

            It can’t evade those rules by having its apologists ignore the fact that it as “a state” and instead pretending that it is “a people”.

            It isn’t: it is a state.

            It can’t be “the Jews”, because over half of all the Jews in the world don’t live there.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Sigh JB, you accuse me of building straw men? What exactly are you doing then, hmmmmmm???

            Did you or did you not ask me this question:?

            “But, please, why is the BDS campaign an attempt “to see Israel destroyed”?”

            I gave you an answer to it. Look at it again. I did not question the legitimacy of BDS. Anyone has a right to buy and sell things to whomever they like and to refuse the same to whom they dislike.

            Having said that, we too have the right to respond whichever way we like. We too will weigh up our interests and if it looks like our enemies (whoever they are) would succeed in trampling us, we can extract a price for it.

            I am not playing ANY tired old game either. Nor am I debating with you. I am just giving you our perspective. I don’t even expect you to like it. I just hope you will heed it, for all our sakes. Yours and ours.

            Kapish?!

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Tzutzik: “I gave you an answer to it. Look at it again.”

            Oh, please, let’s do.

            Starting at the beginning….

            Tzutzik: “You won’t live to see Israel destroyed.”

            I replied with this: “But, please, why is the BDS campaign an attempt ‘to see Israel destroyed’?”

            That is indisputably a direct reply to your statement.

            To which you replied with….

            Tzutzik: “Keep hustling JB. We are not white South Afrikaners who were never a persecuted people.”

            That is a non-Sequitur, plain and simple.

            NOTHING in that sentence backs up your claim that this BDS campaign = Another Holocaust.

            And you continued…

            Tzutzik: “We are descendants of Jews who barely more than a generation ago just managed to survive the genocide that the ancestors of today’s ‘would be’ BDSers keep on threatening us with.”

            Again, that is a non-sequitur.

            NOTHING in that paragraph provides any evidence whatsoever in support of your claim that this BDS campaign = Another Holocaust.

            And you still continued on….

            Tzukzik: “And before that too, during our 2000 years of exile our life was not all that pleasant either in Europe or in Arab lands.”

            Again, that’s a non-sequitur.

            NOTHING in that sentence provides any evidence whatsoever to back up a claim that this BDS campaign = Another Holocaust.

            Tzutzik: “I gave you an answer to it. Look at it again.”

            I have.

            It is nothing more than a rant, and the only thing it attempts to “answer” is a question that was never asked i.e. “Why are Zionists so paranoid?”.

            But that WASN’T the question that I asked. MY question was this one: “But, please, why is the BDS campaign an attempt ‘to see Israel destroyed’?”

            Care to try answering that question instead, rather than the questions that exist only in your head?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            “But that WASN’T the question that I asked. MY question was this one: “But, please, why is the BDS campaign an attempt ‘to see Israel destroyed’?”

            Care to try answering that question instead, rather than the questions that exist only in your head?”

            Wow, JB, are you obtuse? I answered it already twice.

            I gave you our perspective. That we are descendants of holocaust survivors and that we are never going to put ourselves in a situation in which another holocaust can be perpetrated against us. If you dispute that we would be in danger of another holocaust then just look at the threats that many Arabs issue against us and if you doubt their seriousness then just look at how they treat even their own people in places like Syria and elsewhere. You might also look at how they treat their minorities. We don’t have to look. Many of us have had first hand experience of it and we talk and listen to each other.

            The Palestinian Arabs on the other hand insist that we should put ourselves under their “tender mercies”. They want to flood our country with so called refugees most of whom were not even alive in 1948. And BDS is designed to pressure us into agreeing to Arab demands to put our heads in a noose (which is the perspective of most Israelis, although not all Israelis. A minority don’t see it that way but they are not the ones who decide for us). The rest I won’t repeat but this should clear up your cobwebs. I said, SHOULD but I am sure you won’t let the information penetrate your head.

            Oh well, it’s your problem, not mine.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Tzutzik: “I answered it already twice.”

            No, you didn’t.

            You poured out a paranoid rant about the persecution that has been visited upon the Jews since The Dawn Of Time.

            Which all makes fascinating reading… until you realise that a List Of People Who Have Persecuted The Jews doesn’t actually tell you anything about the BDS movement *EXCEPT* that you feel a desperate need to paint everyone with the same brush.

            The BDS movement has not, does not, and will not persecute anyone because they are Jewish.

            Demonstrably so, because these are indisputable facts:
            a) well over half of All The Jews don’t live in Israel, and
            b) the BDS movement shows not the slightest interest in “persecuting” any of them, even though they are all Jewish.

            How odd, heh?

            And how utterly and completely at odds with your paranoid delusion that BDS exists to allow the Persecution Of The Jew! Persecute Them! Persecute Them!

            Apparently it is a highly selective persecution, being as it is restricted entirely to those Jews who have decided to make Aliyah to Israel and then embark in a massive project of colonial dispossession and oppression.

            But if you aren’t involved in Israel’s Jolly Big Ol’ Fashioned Colonial Expansionist Adventure then, so sorry, BDS couldn’t give a sh*t about you, and that’s true no matter how “Jewish” you are.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Wow, are you really this obtuse, JB? Or are you justpretending?

            I never said that the BDS movement itselfis trying to carry out a holocaust. I said they are trying to help those who do.

            Go read what I said again, you boring little man.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            …. and JB now you just descended to playing word games by quoting me selectively and by leaving out relevant bits like this:

            Tzutzik: “I gave you our perspective. That we are descendants of holocaust survivors and that we are never going to put ourselves in a situation in which another holocaust can be perpetrated against us. If you dispute that we would be in danger of another holocaust then just look at the threats that many Arabs issue against us and if you doubt their seriousness then just look at how they treat even their own people in places like Syria and elsewhere. You might also look at how they treat their minorities. We don’t have to look. Many of us have had first hand experience of it and we talk and listen to each other.”

            AND this:

            Tzutzik: “The Palestinian Arabs on the other hand insist that we should put ourselves under their “tender mercies”. They want to flood our country with so called refugees most of whom were not even alive in 1948. And BDS is designed to pressure us into agreeing to Arab demands to put our heads in a noose (which is the perspective of most Israelis, although not all Israelis. A minority don’t see it that way but they are not the ones who decide for us). The rest I won’t repeat but this should clear up your cobwebs. I said, SHOULD but I am sure you won’t let the information penetrate your head.”

            After the above, you still responded like this:

            Tzutzik: “I answered it already twice.”

            JB:”No, you didn’t.

            You poured out a paranoid rant about the persecution that has been visited upon the Jews since The Dawn Of Time.”

            JB:”The BDS movement has not, does not, and will not persecute anyone because they are Jewish.”

            Like I said, you conveniently ignored that I accused the BDS movement of helping our enemies who DO mean to perpetrate a holocaust against us.

            Is the BDS movement itself antisemitic? I would say that the ring leaders are. Some of it’s members are too. Some of course are not, they are just dupes, useful idiots.

            You ask why they target only Israel and not other Jews? That is easy JB. Because right now they see Israel’s Jews as a useful target because they are surrounded by enemies. Israel is a juicy target where they can hurt Jews today.

            As for the diaspora Jews, right now they are not such a tempting target because there are lots of perfectly decent people about who would not stand for more persecutions of Jews.

            Having said that, many BDS types do target diaspora Jews too. They accuse them of dual loyalties for their support of Israel. And they mutter dark thoughts about the “Jewish lobby”.

            Go check with your new found friend Shakhalnur. He calls himself Jewish (although I doubt that he really is). And he puts on a show about how the behaviour of Zionists endangers world Jewry as a whole. To him I said and I still say, that what we do is our business. World Jewry should not be threatened by it unless of course from those who already hate Jews and want to use us as an excuse to do harm to the diaspora Jews.

            Get it JB? No of course you don’t. Because you don’t want to get it. To you it is just a … what did you call it? … a debate … right? …. A debate in which you just want to score points.

            Good luck to you JB. But to us it is real life not just a debate or a game. Go play with yourself then. And yes, I am being rude!

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Oh, yawn, soooo tiresome….

            Tzutzik: “Yes, BDS has the potential to hurt Israel.”

            No sh*t, heh?

            Tzutzik: “It’s aim is to force Israel into making concessions that would lead to Israel’s destruction.”

            Noooo, it’s about forcing Israel to stop oppressing the Palestinians and colonizing the territory that they want for their state.

            That’s what they SAY, and that’s what they are DOING, and you have produced not a scrap of evidence to the contrary.

            Tzutzik: “Ergo, you, JB, being someone who seems to relish the prospects of BDS if we don’t do your bidding, can be accused of advocating Israel’s destruction.”

            *sigh*

            The presumptive flaw is obvious: your claim that the purpose of BDS is “the destruction of Israel”.

            That argument is preposterous, and is refuted by the indisputable fact that the BDS movement is clearly playing from the same songbook as the anti-apartheid movement.

            And, gosh, I’ve looked again on Google Earth and South Africa is still there.

            Tzutzik: “Am I wrong?”

            You. Are. Wrong.

            Tzutzik: “Ok then just say so.”

            You. Are. Wrong.

            Tzutzik: “But instead, you just questioned why Israel would be destroyed if what happened to South Africa would happen to Israel too.”

            What happened to South Africa will end up happening to Israel i.e. the “ruling regime” will be replaced, but the “country” remains.

            Where you and I differ is this: I have no problem understanding that “the ruling regime” is something very different to “the state”, whereas for you they are One And The Same.

            Tzutzik: “And I answered that by telling you that we Jews are not Africaners and the Arabs are not black South Africans. What happened in SA is not applicable to us.”

            Ludicrous.

            The Afrikaners were ALL in South Africa. There was no “expat Afrikaner” popln anywhere else in the world.

            Compare and contrast: the diaspora Jewish popln is actually considerably larger than its counterpart in Israel.

            Compare and contrast: a very significant proportion of Israeli Jews are already dual-citizens, and an even GREATER proportion within the “settler popln” were not borne in Israel and retain their overseas bolt-holes.

            If they wished to “bolt” then that is a very, very considerably easier task for the colonial overlords of Israel than it was for the colonial overlords who used to rule South Africa.

            But, really, the question presupposes that the aim of BDS is to denude Israel of its Jews.

            BDS has no such aim, and so your arguments are the rants of a paranoid delusional.

            It aims to end this endless occupation, and if the occupiers then decide to leave the Middle East(And why, exactly? Israel is right next door….) out of some misguided fit of pique then, so sorry, that’s their choice.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Tzutzik: “I did not question the legitimacy of BDS. Anyone has a right to buy and sell things to whomever they like and to refuse the same to whom they dislike.”

            Oh, please, let’s also go back and examine THAT claim.

            This is how it started…

            Tzutzik: “You won’t live to see Israel destroyed.”

            To which I replied with….

            Johnboy: “I have no desire ‘to see Israel destroyed’.”

            To which YOU replied with….

            Tzutzik: “Sorry, didn’t I read you advocating BDS on Israel?”

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            And? Your point is JB?

            Yea … I know …. you want to obfuscate and play games, you little child …

            JB: “he said … she said …. you said …”

            Yawn, boooooring, LOL.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            I can’t help it that you are obtuse or pretending to be obtuse and either you don’t understand what you are being told or pretend not to.

            Either way … Yaaaaaawwwwnnnn …

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Agaiiiiiiin …

            Yes, BDS has the potential to hurt Israel. It’s aim is to force Israel into making concessions that would lead to Israel’s destruction.

            Ergo, you, JB, being someone who seems to relish the prospects of BDS if we don’t do your bidding, can be accused of advocating Israel’s destruction.

            Am I wrong? Ok then just say so. But instead, you just questioned why Israel would be destroyed if what happened to South Africa would happen to Israel too.

            And I answered that by telling you that we Jews are not Africaners and the Arabs are not black South Africans. What happened in SA is not applicable to us.

            Africaners are white Christians who have plenty of countries which would take them in or maybe even spring to their defence should they begin to be persecuted.
            Us Israeli Jews? Not so much. We already saw how very few Jews were accepted as refugees when they tried to escape Nazi persecution. And nobody stood up for us when it mattered. Pre the 1967 war we were reminded of that again. Ditto in 1973 in the Yom Kipur war.

            And again, about the Arabs. They are making vile threats against us. We see how they treat their own people. And their minorities even worse.

            Now you see why a full blown BDS could lead to our destruction?

            No, I am sure your brain is in lock down mode. Either way, you better pray that it won’t happen because nobody would benefit from it. We will make sure of it.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Oh, yawn, soooo tiresome….

            Tzutzik: “Yes, BDS has the potential to hurt Israel.”

            No sh*t, heh?

            Tzutzik: “It’s aim is to force Israel into making concessions that would lead to Israel’s destruction.”

            Noooo, it’s about forcing Israel to stop oppressing the Palestinians and colonizing the territory that they want for their state.

            That’s what they SAY, and that’s what they are DOING, and you have produced not a scrap of evidence to the contrary.

            Tzutzik: “Ergo, you, JB, being someone who seems to relish the prospects of BDS if we don’t do your bidding, can be accused of advocating Israel’s destruction.”

            *sigh*

            The presumptive flaw is obvious: your claim that the purpose of BDS is “the destruction of Israel”.

            That argument is preposterous, and is refuted by the indisputable fact that the BDS movement is clearly playing from the same songbook as the anti-apartheid movement.

            And, gosh, I’ve looked again on Google Earth and South Africa is still there.

            Tzutzik: “Am I wrong?”

            You. Are. Wrong.

            Tzutzik: “Ok then just say so.”

            You. Are. Wrong.

            Tzutzik: “But instead, you just questioned why Israel would be destroyed if what happened to South Africa would happen to Israel too.”

            What happened to South Africa will end up happening to Israel i.e. the “ruling regime” will be replaced, but the “country” remains.

            Where you and I differ is this: I have no problem understanding that “the ruling regime” is something very different to “the state”, whereas for you they are One And The Same.

            Tzutzik: “And I answered that by telling you that we Jews are not Africaners and the Arabs are not black South Africans. What happened in SA is not applicable to us.”

            Ludicrous.

            The Afrikaners were ALL in South Africa. There was no “expat Afrikaner” popln anywhere else in the world.

            Compare and contrast: the diaspora Jewish popln is actually considerably larger than its counterpart in Israel.

            Compare and contrast: a very significant proportion of Israeli Jews are already dual-citizens, and an even GREATER proportion within the “settler popln” were not borne in Israel and retain their overseas bolt-holes.

            If they wished to “bolt” then that is a very, very considerably easier task for the colonial overlords of Israel than it was for the colonial overlords who used to rule South Africa.

            But, really, the question presupposes that the aim of BDS is to denude Israel of its Jews.

            BDS has no such aim, and so your arguments are the rants of a paranoid delusional.

            It aims to end this endless occupation, and if the occupiers then decide to leave the Middle East(And why, exactly? Israel is right next door….) out of some misguided fit of pique then, so sorry, that’s their choice.

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            T: “Which bit of Never again don’t you want to understand?”

            Well, since everything that had preceded that question had been directed towards your own straw man – rather than to me – I fail to see why you are addressing that question to me.

            Ask that Man Of Straw, you know, the opponent that you made up and then put words into its mouth.

            After all, you *already* know how that straw man is going to reply, since you’re the dude who is providing its voice….

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Sigh again …

            My straw man? What straw man?

            Essentially you tried to tell us to put our collective heads in a noose or you threatened us with BDS which would do us harm.

            I responded that we won’t be putting our heads in a noose AND that you should think twice before going down the path of BDS or that even if you choose to, you better hope that it won’t harm us too much. Because if you do and it would, then you may not like the consequences.

            I am getting tired of repeting it. This is about the third time that I am saying the same thing but you seem to like to hear it again, or more likely you have comprehension issues. But the most likely thing is that you are running out of spin and you are into the obfuscation stage.

            Boring! But I have the stamina to keep up with you.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            So you’re basically threatening anyone going down the path of BDS.

            “You boycott us,we’ll go for you”

            That’s what the Nazi’s answered after US Zionists called for a boycott of Germany in 1933.

            And they fullfilled their threat.

            You wouldn’t have the same genetical make-up,would you?

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            One last word to Shakhalnur too …

            “So you’re basically threatening anyone going down the path of BDS.”

            I am telling them that they are playing with fire. You interpret it as you will.

            I would like to discuss this thing further but this is not the place. This thread was already hijacked by petty nonsense thanks to our childish JB here.

            Till next time, Shakalnur …

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            Run,Forest,Run….

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            You can get fucked too Shakhalnur.

            We will catch up later. Don’t congratulate yourself just yet.

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            In case you wanna know what 1897 Zionists like Tzutz are all about?

            Ask a nazi.

            Or read; “Mein Iron Wall”

            Reply to Comment
          • Johnboy

            Tzutzik: “My straw man?”

            Yes, your straw man.

            You insisted that I wished the destruction of Israel.

            I said that I didn’t wish the destruction of Israel.

            You then reacted with incredulity, insisting that I supported BDS.

            I then responded with an obvious question: “why is the BDS campaign an attempt ‘to see Israel destroyed’?”

            You then went into a long-winded rant about how everyone has always attempted to persecute the Jews.

            That’s a straw man argument.

            We are discussing ISRAEL.
            We are discussing BDS.

            You didn’t ask me about my views regarding the historic persecution of Jews.

            You insisted that BDS is a campaign who’s aim is “the destruction of Israel”, yet you have produced not the slightest scrap of evidence to support that claim.

            All you have done is rant on and on and on about The Harm That Has Always Come To Jews.

            Playing the eternal-victim card is oh-so-tiresome, and utterly irrelevant to this thread.

            What’s relevant is this:
            Q: Is Israel doing something Very, Very Bad to the Palestinians?
            A: Why, yes. Yes, it is.

            Q: So what’s BDS all about?
            A: It’s about pressuring Israel to Stop Doing That to the Palestinians.

            Q: So not about “Let’s Persecute The Jews!!”?
            A: No, and Tzutzik hasn’t produced a scrap of evidence to the contrary.

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            Oh fuck JB now you are pissing me off!

            I said that BDS is trying to help those whose aim is to destroy Israel.

            And your claim that Israel is doing something wrong is just your claim. I disagree with it. OK?

            Now you are going to start up repeating your worn arguments again? Please do. I already stated my case. You don’t like it? Then lump it! I refuse to repeat myself for the fourth time.

            Till next time. This thread is already full of us. I refuse to make it even worse than it already has become thank to your repetitive and nonsensical obfuscation.

            Straw man indeed. You are full of it JB!

            Reply to Comment
          • shachalnur

            “Oh,oh,I see,running away then.
            You yellow bastard!
            Come back here and take what’s coming to you.
            I’ll bite your legs off!”

            Reply to Comment
          • Tzutzik

            LOL.

            Reply to Comment
    20. Tzutzik

      “OK, fine, but by doing so Israel’s leadership is galloping towards a cliff, and idiots like yourself actually think that the speed of that headlong rush is a *good* sign.”

      Idiots like me? Nasty, nasty JB, no need to get personal. I’ll let it slide for now because you amuse me.

      As for Israel. I am confident about our future, BDS or no BDS. You know why? Because even Middle Easterners are not so stupid as to be collectively suicidal. Have you ever heard the phrase never again? Can you figure out what it means?

      When they see that what we offer is a choice between the real two state solution or utter defeat for them or if all else fails back to the stone age for a very wide audience, the Palis will back off from their maximalist demands which would mean our destruction anyway so we have nothing to lose.

      Reply to Comment
      • Tzutzik

        You obviously think that we Israelis are idiots, JB, but we are far from it.

        Moreover, our choices are so straight forward that even if we would be idiots, we could not make a mistake about what to do.

        First, there is Hamas and it is a no brainer as to what they want.

        Then there is the PA which is a bit more subtle but not much more. They want a one and a half state solution first which they want to then use as a springboard to turn Israel into the 23rd Arab state. How do we know? We know because they insist on the right of return and they reject recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Which means that their objective is still the same as it was in 1947.

        So, given all that, JB, your BDS threat is just nonsense. We will take our chances with that rather than put our head in a noose by accepting Abbas’s unreasonable demands.

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