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A dumb and dangerous way to fight anti-Semitism

The U.S. Senate unanimously passes a bill that would force universities to include ‘holding Israel to a double standard’ as a form of anti-Semitism.

By James J. Zogby

Illustrative photo of pro-Israel and pro-Palestine protesters on campus. (Matanya Tausig/Flash90)

Illustrative photo of pro-Israel and pro-Palestine protesters on campus. (Matanya Tausig/Flash90)

Without debate or an actual vote, the U.S. Senate stealthily passed a disturbing and dangerous piece of legislation that would require the Department of Education (DOE) to apply the State Department’s definition of anti-Semitism in evaluating complaints of discrimination on U.S. campuses.

The State Department definition of and guidelines on anti-Semitism were designed to help U.S. officials monitor anti-Semitism abroad. They were not intended to be applied to police speech on college campuses at home.

In developing their definition and guidance, the State Department adopted language used by the European Union Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC):

“Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious institutions.”

This description of anti-Semitism is both correct and instructive, as are several examples of contemporary anti-Semitism mentioned in the State Department guidance, including: “accusing Jews, as a people, of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, the State of Israel, or even for acts committed by non-Jews”; or “making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews – or the power of Jews – as a collective.” These and other examples cited in the guidance are objectively anti-Semitic and patently wrong.

Where the State Department guidance goes off the rails is when it tries to expand the definition to include “anti-Semitism relative to Israel,” citing, as examples, speech that demonizes or delegitimizes Israel or that applies a double standard to it. The example given for applying a “double standard for Israel” is “requiring…behavior [of Israel] not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.” With this expansion of the definition of anti-Semitism, the guidance becomes both subjective and open to dangerous abuse by those who would use it to silence criticism of Israel.

This language is so vague and open to interpretation that when the University of California Board of Regents was being pressed to apply the State Department guidance to California campuses, the lead author of the EUMC definition of anti-Semitism objected, pointing out the dangers this would present to free speech. “Enshrining such a definition on a college campus is an ill-advised idea that will make matters worse, and not only for Jewish students,” he said. “It would also damage the university as a whole.”

In short remarks introducing their bill, “The Anti-Semitism Awareness Act of 2016,” Senators Tim Scott (R-SC) and Bob Casey (D-PA) presented it as an effort to protect Jewish students from the scourge of anti-Semitic harassment. They told stories of pro-Israel Jewish students living in fear on their campuses. Interestingly, however, when the DOE’s civil rights unit investigated reports of widespread anti-Semitism creating a hostile environment on specific campuses, the DOE teams found the charges largely baseless.

If the bill is dangerous and even unnecessary, then why did Senators Scott and Casey do it? And why did they rush to pass it without debate or discussion? Reading the “fact sheet” Scott and Casey attached to their legislation reveals the bill’s sinister political intent – and that is, silencing campus student movements and activities that are critical of Israel, in particular the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanction movement (BDS). Seen in this light the new bill is but an extension of other legislative efforts in Congress and, at last count, 22 state legislatures to either ban or penalize individuals or entities that participate in any forms of BDS against the State of Israel.

All of this is wrong on so many levels. It has the U.S. government unfairly influencing a necessary debate that is taking place on college campuses weighing in to support one side, while threatening the other side if they cross an undefined and arbitrary line.

These efforts tell Palestinian and progressive Jewish students that their speech will be policed and that they may be subject to penalties. If students were to call Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu “a monster” or accuse him and the Israeli military of “a barbaric assault on Gaza,” would they be accused of “demonizing?” Or what if students spoke about Israel’s 1948 “ethnic cleansing” of Palestinians or focused their political work on criticizing Israel’s occupation of Palestinian lands, but said nothing about (or maybe didn’t even care to know about) Turkey’s occupation in Cyprus or Russia’s in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine — could they be charged with delegitimizing Israel or applying a “double standard?”

At the same time that these efforts will act to intimidate and silence pro-Palestinian activity on campuses, they will also serve to embolden pro-Israel student groups to file repeated complaints against BDS and pro-Palestinian organizations.

What I am find most ironic here is the degree to which this entire discussion has turned reality upside down. I understand awful and hurtful things have been said and that some pro-Israel students may feel “uncomfortable” in some instances, or that the BDS debate on their campuses may make them feel like they are in a “hostile” environment. But it is inexcusable to ignore the harassment and threats and defamation endured by any students who are advocating for Palestinian rights. Oftentimes, they are the ones operating in a hostile environment. They are the ones targeted by well-funded campaigns and subjected to threats and harassment. And when Arab Americans write opinion pieces in school newspapers, the comments’ sections are filled with bigotry and hate.

The bottom line is that there are times when the debate has become ugly and students on all sides have crossed the line. When this occurs, what universities should be addressing the need for greater civility in our political discourse and helping to create an environment that encourages openness to debating controversial issues. That’s what we need. What we don’t need is a ham-fisted effort by senators to silence debate, which will only create more hostility and less civility.

James J. Zogby is the president of the Arab American Institute. 

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    COMMENTS

    1. R5

      Jewish students don’t show up to SJP meetings to shout down their speakers, assault Arab students and barricade them in classrooms – that is 100% SJP territory. Jewish students couldn’t care less. Stronger measures are clearly required to deal with the “progressive” blackshirts who have taken over campuses across the country. Looks like Ellison and Zogby will follow Corbyn’s example and lead the Democratic Party off of a cliff.

      Reply to Comment
    2. Ben

      Tweeting notes from all over:

      4 hours ago
      סאם ‏@_sunfloweremoji
      Steve Bannon: i don’t want my daughter going to school with kikes
      Keith Ellison: hey, uh, maybe Israel shouldn’t…
      ADL: WOAAAAH THERE KEITH!

      4 hours ago
      סאם ‏@_sunfloweremoji
      Jeff Sessions: i have no problem with the KKK
      ADL: *crickets*
      Keith Ellison: maybe Israel shouldn’t…
      ADL: WHY DO YOU HATE JEWS????

      4 hours ago
      סאם ‏@_sunfloweremoji
      And Ellison’s criticisms weren’t even that harsh! He’s against BDS! His positions on Israel aren’t even out of the American mainstream!

      8 hours ago
      Mairav Zonszein ‏@MairavZ
      Mairav Zonszein Retweeted Barak Ravid
      Chaim Saban is a dick
      Mairav Zonszein added,
      Barak Ravid @BarakRavid
      BREAKING: Chaim Saban: @keithellison is an antisemite and anti-Israel. It will be a disaster for US-Israel if he is elected as head of DNC

      Reply to Comment
    3. Lewis from Afula

      The argument “I don’t hate Mexicans but I don’t believe that Mexico has a right to exist” is an example of anti-Mexican racism. In a similar vane, antisemitism must not be given any legitimacy in the USA.

      Reply to Comment
      • Baladi Akka 1948

        Haha, coming from a fascist who calls Palestinians “Fakestinians” and claim we don’t exist, what a fucking joke you are, Lewis the Fool former ‘Tomer’, the guy who’s dreaming of Moshe Feiglin as PM.

        Reply to Comment
      • Carmen

        The end of zionist hegemony and the ‘nation-state of the jewish people’ isn’t antisemitism, no matter how many or who insists it is. The way it happened, what happened and what continues to happen to keep the zionist enterprise running needs to end. One state, one people, a secular democratic country for all. That’s worth fighting for, not the status quo.

        Reply to Comment
        • i_like_ike52

          “One secular state, one people”-I presume you are viewing Lebanon, Iraq and Syria as models for us to follow…multi-ethnic, multi-confessional, multi-sectarian states with socialist regimes that the whole world looks up to as models of coexistence between its various rainbow constituents. Right? Everybody is Israel sees what is going on in those countries, made up largely of Muslims who adhere to that “religion of peace” and are drawing the appropriate conclusions.

          Reply to Comment
          • carmen

            “I presume you are viewing Lebanon, Iraq and Syria as models for us to follow…”

            Why does there have to be a model to follow Ike? I think there are enough intelligent Palestinians and Jews to break the mold and create a democratic secular state and keep religion a private matter, not a state matter.

            Reply to Comment
          • i_like_ike52

            I am sorry to be the one to break it to you, but your belief, common to most “progressves” that everyone in the world is like you, is simply not true. You are a reasonable, peaceable, democratically-minded person, so you assume everyone else is as well.
            The Palestinians are an integral part of the Arab/Muslim world. The rank-and-file Palestinians hold a set of beliefs and attitude similar to those of the people in the Arab Middle East. In case you haven’t noticed, there is not a single, peaceful, prosperous, democratic state in the Arab Middle East. There has to be a reason for it. Thus, any Palestinian state that should be set up would end up being wracked by corruption and possibly fratricidal violence just as the other Arab/Middle Eastern states are. Just look at what happened when Israel left the Gaza Strip. Israelis are not going to gamble on your rose-colored glasses vision of what would be if Israel pulled out of the West Bank.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “Israelis are not going to gamble on your rose-colored glasses vision of what would be if Israel pulled out of the West Bank.”

            “Wracked by corruption?” Watch out, your projection is showing. I’m sure that a lot of israelis can’t sleep at night with the knowledge of the horrible things done by their gov’t in the name of security. funny, security is something israelis will likely never have. Israelis have no one to blame but themselves for this situation (you blame the Palestinians for a process that has never been attempted, just flipping it on you to see how that sounds to you).

            Reply to Comment
          • Duh

            Israel itself isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement of a “Jewish” state, either.

            Reply to Comment
        • AJew

          “One state, one people, a secular democratic country for all.”

          ONE STATE: Whether she means it or not, it isn’t hard to guess what that state would become. It would become an ARAB STATE or at least another ARAB DOMINATED STATE, the 23rd one.

          ONE PEOPLE: Yea when Carmen works out how to make silk out of a sow’s ear, that’s when Jews and Arabs can become ONE PEOPLE. The other way would be to kill off all the Jews of Israel and then she’d be left only with the Arabs. I would not be the least surprised if that is exactly what she has in mind when she voices her propaganda words. After all, most of the Jews of Israel are Zionists and the Carmen’s of this world don’t even attempt to hide their utter hatred of Zionists.

          DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY: show me even one country which is dominated by Arabs which is a democracy. No? Can’t? Then where is Carmen’s expectation coming from about the possibility of Palestine becoming a democracy? Who would make it happen? Hamas? The PLO? What a joke a real bad joke!

          Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            You’re the joke. A tired, scared old joke. You only see black and white, or I should say blue and white, nothing in between, no possibilities. You have no vision. You’re afraid of being just a man, or just a woman, whatever you are. Just being equal to everyone else. For everyone else to have the same rights you have, you’d rather die or see them die. What a fool.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “ONE PEOPLE: Yea when Carmen works out how to make silk out of a sow’s ear, that’s when Jews and Arabs can become ONE PEOPLE. The other way would be to kill off all the Jews of Israel and then she’d be left only with the Arabs. I would not be the least surprised if that is exactly what she has in mind when she voices her propaganda words. After all, most of the Jews of Israel are Zionists and the Carmen’s of this world don’t even attempt to hide their utter hatred of Zionists.”

            You are completely blinded by your ideology. But you don’t represent everyone, so there is hope – and that’s what scares the shit out of you, isn’t it? Stay in your ghetto where you can be king of the dunghill.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Hey lady, I wish I could say that you are just a deluded dreamer. But my suspicion is that far from being deluded you are just another Arab nationalist who is engaged in psi warfare trying to delude the world in general and some of us (the stupid ones amongst us).

            I think you will probably meet with limited (very limited) success because amongst any group of people one can find fools. Hey, we have our fools too but nowhere as many as you think lady.

            As for who I represent? I represent only myself but there are millions of others like me amongst Israelis. I don’t care if you don’t believe it lady. But I can assure you that your fairy tales and fairy tale (non) vision just make me laugh. Actually, your attempt to peddle it is the comical bit. The fact that you seem to think that there are so many fools amongst us that you’d actually make a real impact with your nonsense. That is funny. Well, almost funny to be truthful, in a pitiful kinda way.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            http://m.jpost.com/#article=6017M0MzMjkwQkVEMDE4NDc0NUExRUIwM0VGQzdDNEMzRUM=

            Arab IDF soldier: ‘I love this country and want to contribute’
            By REUTERS
            Wed, 07 Dec 2016, 01:40 AM
            Kol Hakavod. I have nothing but respect and admiration for Israeli Arabs who are like this. They represent the future of how we will get along. They are prepared to be part of the Jewish state as a respected minority. They don’t want to eliminate the Jewish state. They represent the face of the future.

            Reply to Comment
    4. Baladi Akka 1948

      If holding Israel to a double-standard is a form of antisemitism, what do we call the US and European politicians and intellectuals, not to speak of average citizens who defend actions and policies by the State of Israel that they would never defend if it were another State ?

      Reply to Comment
      • Eliza

        Baladi: Good point – you nailed in a sentence or two. Now, there has to be a name or two to call these people, like Israel Firsters which would presumably fall into the State Dept definition of anti-semitism. And so it goes on.

        Reply to Comment
    5. Duh

      Exactly. Very few western supporters of Israel would whitewash the crimes of Germany circa 1933-45 and Apartheid South Africa, or for that matter US slavery/Jim Crow. OTOH, we have to view Israel as a “democracy” even though the Palestinian refugees, who are the rightful citizens of the post-British Mandate entity, are barred from entering Zionist-controlled 1948 Palestine. Likewise, we have to respect Israel for its superior technology; Nazi Germany certainly trumped the Jews of Poland in that department. This without going into the discourse surrounding Israel’s possession of WMDs.

      There’s a lot of ideological baggage to unpack here, but those who support Israel while throwing abolished racial segregation regimes under the bus are hypocrites. That’s the long and short of it.

      Reply to Comment
      • Baladi Akka 1948

        Talking about WMD, and to give just one example! I live in France, and on Bastille Day July 14th 2015, President Hollande was interviewed live on the two major televisions like every year by two of the most experienced journalists France have. It was just after the Iran deal and I quote and translate what Hollande said: “If Iran managed to get nuclear weapons, other countries in the Middle East like Saudi Arabia or Israel would like to have them too”.
        I heard this with my own ears (the interview is on the net), and what shocked me most was that none of the two journalistes said anything. So here we have the president of the State that helped Israel developing its nuclear arsenal denying it even has it, and nobody reacts, not even the MSM spoke about it next day. And the list goes on and on …. and when you speak about THAT double-standard you’re the antisemite. Go figure 🙂

        Reply to Comment
        • Duh

          He could have replaced Israel with Egypt and that statement would still have been disingenuous but not as blatantly stupid.

          Reply to Comment
    6. Carmen

      I would love any zionist to explain what there is to love about zionism – I guess I never got the memo ticking off all of the wonderful attributes of this particular cult. Why should the world bow to the demands of zionists? Why is the u.s. beholden to the zionist state? Why is zionism constantly conflated with judaism – wait, I know that one.

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        http://m.jpost.com/#article=6017M0MzMjkwQkVEMDE4NDc0NUExRUIwM0VGQzdDNEMzRUM=

        Arab IDF soldier: ‘I love this country and want to contribute’
        By REUTERS
        Wed, 07 Dec 2016, 01:40 AM

        Kol Hakavod. I have nothing but respect and admiration for Israeli Arabs who are like this. They represent the future of how we will get along. They are prepared to be part of the Jewish state as a respected minority. They don’t want to eliminate the Jewish state. They represent the face of the future.

        Reply to Comment
        • Carmen

          “Still, some Israeli Arabs see volunteering for the military as betrayal.

          “This phenomenon, we totally reject it,” said Ahmad Tibi, an Israeli-Arab member of parliament.

          “What could go through a person’s mind when he serves against his people? We try to educate people that this is not the way.”

          Volunteers say their families are supportive, and that they are prepared to take criticism.

          “I don’t care about them,” said Salutta. “I need to be part of the country, to be like everybody else.”

          Yeah gustav, kol ha’kafucking vod. Keep partying like its 1948.

          “So you have two types of Negro. The old type and the new type. Most of you know the old type. When you read about him in history during slavery he was called “Uncle Tom.” He was the house Negro. And during slavery you had two Negroes. You had the house Negro and the field Negro.

          The house Negro usually lived close to his master. He dressed like his master. He wore his master’s second-hand clothes. He ate food that his master left on the table. And he lived in his master’s house–probably in the basement or the attic–but he still lived in the master’s house.

          So whenever that house Negro identified himself, he always identified himself in the same sense that his master identified himself. When his master said, “We have good food,” the house Negro would say, “Yes, we have plenty of good food.” “We” have plenty of good food. When the master said that “we have a fine home here,” the house Negro said, “Yes, we have a fine home here.” When the master would be sick, the house Negro identified himself so much with his master he’d say, “What’s the matter boss, we sick?” His master’s pain was his pain. And it hurt him more for his master to be sick than for him to be sick himself. When the house started burning down, that type of Negro would fight harder to put the master’s house out than the master himself would.

          But then you had another Negro out in the field. The house Negro was in the minority. The masses–the field Negroes were the masses. They were in the majority. When the master got sick, they prayed that he’d die. [Laughter] If his house caught on fire, they’d pray for a wind to come along and fan the breeze.

          If someone came to the house Negro and said, “Let’s go, let’s separate,” naturally that Uncle Tom would say, “Go where? What could I do without boss? Where would I live? How would I dress? Who would look out for me?” That’s the house Negro. But if you went to the field Negro and said, “Let’s go, let’s separate,” he wouldn’t even ask you where or how. He’d say, “Yes, let’s go.” And that one ended right there.

          So now you have a twentieth-century-type of house Negro. A twentieth-century Uncle Tom. He’s just as much an Uncle Tom today as Uncle Tom was 100 and 200 years ago. Only he’s a modern Uncle Tom. That Uncle Tom wore a handkerchief around his head. This Uncle Tom wears a top hat. He’s sharp. He dresses just like you do. He speaks the same phraseology, the same language. He tries to speak it better than you do. He speaks with the same accents, same diction. And when you say, “your army,” he says, “our army.” He hasn’t got anybody to defend him, but anytime you say “we” he says “we.” “Our president,” “our government,” “our Senate,” “our congressmen,” “our this and our that.” And he hasn’t even got a seat in that “our” even at the end of the line. So this is the twentieth-century Negro. Whenever you say “you,” the personal pronoun in the singular or in the plural, he uses it right along with you. When you say you’re in trouble, he says, “Yes, we’re in trouble.”

          But there’s another kind of Black man on the scene. If you say you’re in trouble, he says, “Yes, you’re in trouble.” [Laughter] He doesn’t identify himself with your plight whatsoever.”
          Malcolm describes the difference between the “house Negro” and the “field Negro.”
          Michigan State University, East Lansing, Michigan. 23 January 1963.

          Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Temper temper lady. No swearing, remember?

            But thanks for thev 2 mile long post. I’ll keep mine a bit more economical and say. Now do you understand how we feel about Jewish uncle Toms who side with your lot against their own?

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “Temper temper lady? No swearing, remember?” Miss Manners strikes again 🙂

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Yeah gustav, kol ha’kafucking vod.”

            On second thought, lady, swear away like a trooper. I like you when you are angry 😜

            Reply to Comment
        • Ben

          Hmmmmm. Nope. Sgt Salutta and Sgt Khalil both say “this country.” Not “Jewish State.” But anyway, this ought to make a tiny little light bulb go on inside your cramped cranium: “Eureka! Hey, maybe if we actually treated the mass of Palestinians with respect and dignity for once and stopped brutally occupying them and stealing from them and beating the shit out of them then maybe the mass of them would respond and come around to making a lasting peace with us. Maybe they are human beings like us?! I know it’s a crazy idea but they thought Einstein was crazy at first too!”

          Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “Hmmmmm. Nope. Sgt Salutta and Sgt Khalil both say “this country.” Not “Jewish State.”” 🙂

            This was so good I want to see it twice. “I love this country and want to contribute”. Someone read “I love the nation-state of the Jewish people”. Bwaaahhhaaahhhhhaaaahhhaaaahhaaaaahhhhaaaaa!

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            But lady. This country (Israel) IS a Jewish state. They know that and they have no problems serving in it’s army despite that. A bit like Jews had no problems serving in the armies of christian states where they lived. Even though those states described themselves as Christian countries. Funny, huh (I am being sarcastic)?

            Oh and they also say: “We love this country”. Kol hakavod to them for that. That’s the face of the future. They integrate with us and they get respected as a minority. What is your problem with that, lady? That is the face of peaceful coexistence? Don’t you like it? Why? Because it would perpetuate the existence of one (only one) Jewish state in the world? Is that your main problem, lady?

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Hey lady. Don’t judge us by your mentality. You must be talking about how YOU will be treating the Jewish uncle Toms like Pappe right? Of course right.

            We on the other hand have nothing but respect for those Arabs who want to live in peace with us and don’t want to dismantle the only Jewish state in the world and to replace it with the 23rd Arab state. We have nothing but respect for Arabs who respect our rights too. After all, right now, as you say, they are a rare commodity amongst Palestinian Arabs. But you’ll see, slowly and surely they will all come around and we will live in mutual respect and peace. Oh, I am sure that the likes of you will NEVER come around. You will hold out to the bitter end with your hatred for us. But you’ll just become a rare curiosity. A relic of the past. A troglodyte. And you will have not an iota of relevance. Except maybe you will offer a comic relief for people who will want to laugh at you. Sorry to be so harsh towards you but hey, you need someone to tell you the reality that awaits you 😰

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            You’re delusional. I’ve read your posts. The only Arabs you like know their place and don’t complain about it, you know, you like the house negroes of Palestine. What have you promised them for their idol worship? The right to live in their own land? I know the promises the IOF makes to the ‘regulars’ that don’t amount to a pile of hummus; I can’t begin to imagine the carrot on the stick for Palestinians – We’ll treat you like a white man! You can swim in our pools and we won’t change the water when you’re throgh! You can date my sis…forget that one. You’ll get the same pay for the same work – how’s that for progressive!? Kol H’kafucking vod.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Fume on lady. Fume. Now you are showing your true face. You are full of hatred and venom. You are right that WE (yes WE) disrespect Arabs like you Carmen. And you show everyone who cares to look why we will NOT agree to have a one state solution in which the likes of you would be a majority. Because such a state would never be a democracy.

            But not all Arabs are like you Carmen (full of hatred). Many Israeli Arabs (not all) have come to terms with the existence of the Jewish majority state and they are happy to live with us as a respected minority. We respect THOSE Arabs in return well most of us anyway some of us too occasionally become stupid like you, Carmen, because of the war which Arabs like you have been waging against us for nearly 100 years. But there are laws against such people. Anti discrimination laws. How many democratic Arab countries exist with anti discrimination laws (against minorities), Carmen? ANSWER: none, zip, nada, zilch, zero! But you want us (yes I said ‘US’ not ‘I’) to live under YOUR rule? Nah thanks. We tried that before and it didn’t work out too well for us, that’s why Israel exists today. And in our state (yes I said ‘OUR’ not ‘MY’) we can already, in a time of war, respect minorities who respect us. And when peace comes, we will respect each other even more.

            As for the likes of you lady. Well, I have already said in my previous post what the likes of you will become. No need for repetition.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “As for the likes of you lady. Well, I have already said in my previous post what the likes of you will become. No need for repetition.” Get the smelling salts, Gustav is having the vapors. I’m a jew too, just not like you, but you obviously enjoy calling me something else so continue as you will. No need for repetition you say. We’ll see how long that lasts. Reality is really a strain for you, you’re really spinning around in circles.

            Are you capable of answering those burning questions wrt zionism I’ve posted to you, mouthpiece of the zionists? Why should I or anyone else support zionists/zionism? Why should the world bow to the demands of zionists? Why is the u.s. beholden to the zionist state? Why is zionism constantly conflated with judaism – wait, I know that one. How does zionism compare with the nationalistic/racist alt-right, KKK, Golden Dawn, Jobbik, Alternative for Germany and the National Front? Any sunlight between them?

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “I’m a jew too”

            I don’t care who or what you are Carmen. At the end of the day you are you. If you are an Israeli citizen, you have the vote. I too have the vote. You can vote for whoever or whatever you like and so can I.

            “Are you capable of answering those burning questions wrt zionism I’ve posted to you, mouthpiece of the zionists? Why should I or anyone else support zionists/zionism?”

            Exactly! Why should you?! You do what you want lady. You support whoever you want lady. Why are you asking me what YOU should do? And why should I waste my time answering your inane question when we both know that you haven’t got the least bit of intention to listen? Sheeesh!

            PS
            QUESTION: When did you convert to Judaism? And what made you do it? Nah, don’t answer that, I am just joking 🙃

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/190615/israels-best-diplomat-george-deek

            Again, Carmen, here is the face of the future of coexistence between Israeli Arabs and Jews. Actually, in the case of this Arab Israeli it is already the present.

            “The key to change is connected deeply to our ability as Arabs to accept the legitimacy of others. Therefore, the Jewish State is our biggest challenge, because it has a different nationality, religion, and culture. Jews pose a challenge because as a minority they insist on their right to be different. The day we accept the Jewish State as it is, all other persecution in the Middle East will cease.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            Yes it is the future. One hopes. So why do you Israelis endlessly hold up the future? The reconciliation Deek shows won’t happen while you savagely occupy them and take their land. Deek is an outlier, an unusually strong person. Just as Noam Scheizaf and Yehuda Shaul and the refuseniks and journalists like Amira Hass are outliers, unusually strong people. You will not get weaker people, like you for example or the Arab Gustavs (‘AArab’?), to come around while you beat the crap out of them and cheat them every day, or reward the people doing this to them, and perpetuate the cycle. So don’t hold up George Deek as an example of “a good Arab” unless you are willing to hold up Yehuda Shaul as equally “a good Jew.” But transparently you are not. You call those like him an Uncle Tom, “misguided,” “foolish,” “traitors,” “greedy,” etc. if the mass of people were Deeks and Shauls or Scheizafs the world would be a different place. For every “bad Arab” one can point to a “bad Jew.” The cultural expression and the place of relative comfort or discomfort or stress they are coming from varies but if you think you will continue to occupy them as you are and punish them while you lavishly reward their occupiers, and during all this the masses on either side will come around and reconcile in this context, you are extraordinarily naive about people and their average capacities and what motivates them; and dense to human suffering.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            The problem with jews like AJew is they talk about peace, but its the same old trope – palestinian arabs have to accept this is the nation-state of the jews, this is a jewish state, zeo. There is nothing else. They talk about Palestinians like american southerners talked about ‘their’ negroes, who were ‘happy’ until ‘outside agitators’ got involved. I don’t have any idea what would make a Palestinian join the israeli occupation force, but desperation, as in, if I can learn to walk like a jew, talk like a jew, hate like a jew and kill like a jew, maybe I’ll be seen as an equal and will have a chance. I can’t imagine the self-loathing that would require and that is absolutely tragic. Deek is a traitor to his own best interests and his people, if he has any left. I would imagine Deek would get set up pretty nice by the zionist state for being a disgusting traitor and people like AJew talk about what a great guy he is. Of course! He’s on his knees, and will do anything. He is to be pitied. He’s no different than any ‘outsider’ desperately trying to be an insider. The problem has always been, no one likes a copy, a pseudo, a wannabe and the zionists will dog the shit out of him and pimp him out and then laugh about it. Like they do about Abbas, he’s a joke, he’s sold out his people for material comfort in his old age. But Khamas!!! They’ll tell you to go fuck yourself and mean it. Can’t deal with them. Although some, like Efraim Halevy, say to talk to Hamas and that it’s a mistake not to.
            Why the West and Israel should talk to Hamas – Al Jazeera English
            http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/…/west-israel-talk-hamas-160307095000195.htm

            Of course, there’s more money to be gained, more weapons to test on civilians and talking to Hamas might put an end to such lucre. It’s mostly about money with a weird mix of religiosity and heavy doses of nationalism. sick.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            You know lady? You are really full of bitterness and hatred. In fact you ooze hatred. It is coming through loud and clear. And all that hatred is directed against the state of the Jewish people which was created with the purpose of ensuring that Jews would be in the position to defend themselves against those who would want to do Jews harm because we are Jews. The only way that is possible as far as we Zionists see it, is if we are a majority in our state. And that seems to bother you awfully. Why Carmen? Why can’t Jews have one state in which Jews are a majority? In your later post, you claim to be a Jew. If so, why are you against a majority Jewish state?

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            Are you capable of answering those burning questions wrt zionism I’ve posted to you, mouthpiece of the zionists? Why should I or anyone else support zionists/zionism? Why should the world bow to the demands of zionists? Why is the u.s. beholden to the zionist state? Why is zionism constantly conflated with judaism – wait, I know that one. How does zionism compare with the nationalistic/racist alt-right, KKK, Golden Dawn, Jobbik, Alternative for Germany and the National Front? Any sunlight between them? Tick tock – AJew is frantically avoiding answering these very simple questions. Sorry fella/girl/whatever – I’m not answering any of your questions. I’ve yet to see a zionist do anything but make demands and evade answering fairly straightforward questions. And my oozing hatred – you can go ahead and take that personally as you’ve set yourself up as the mouthpiece for the zionist experiment. Don’t like it – going to whine about my hatred? Do you actually believe you’re hatred is less offensive?

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            ZIONISM:
            The belief that the Jewish people have the right to live in our own state as an independent free people where we can have self determination.

            WHO ARE THE ZIONISTS:
            As long as people profess the above belief, they are zionists. For example, Hashomer Hatzair was one of the original leftist Zionists st parties. They established Kibutzim in which people lived communaly, to all intents and purposes practicisng Marxism. But they were Zionists. On the other side of the political spectrum the founders of Israel had Herut which was a right wing Zionist party led by Begin. And in between at the centre left and centre right there were all kinds of other kinds of Zionists like Mapai which was led by Ben Gurion.

            Today, the situation is no different except that right wing Zionists dominate Israel because leftist Zionists lost their way and demonstrated to us that they cannot negotiate a peace deal with the Palestinian Arabs without endangaring the well being of Israeli Jews and the very existence of the Jewish state.

            ARAB NATIONALISM:
            The original aim of Arab nationalists was to ensure that ALL of Paelestine would be ruled by Arabs and to get rid of the pesky Zionists whom they viewed as colonialist invaders.

            In the 1960s, with the help of the KGB, the Arab nationalists (the PLO) modified it’s stance. They introduced the concept of the secular democratic state in which Jews and Arabs would live together in bliss and harmony. A nice concept but only if all parties agree to it and mean it. The trouble was that history belied that utopian concept. By the 1960s Jews and Arabs have had a history of decades of bitter and bloody conflict, wars, death and destruction. So we Jews preferred to hold onto Zionism and to maintain the idea of the two state solution. Indeed, had the Arabs wanted to have an independent Arab Palestinian state, they could have established it in the West Bank and Gaza because they were held by Jordan and Egypt respectively, between 1948 and 1967. But the Palestinian Arabs did not seem to mind considering themselves as part of the greater Arab Umma of Jordan and Egypt. They did however mind the existence of the independent state of the Jewish nation of Israel and they swore that they and their Arab allies would drive the Zionists into the sea. Moreover, they made it abundantly clear in their national charter that their mutterings about a single secular democratic state is just a sham to fool gullible westerners and that the evil colonialist Jews have no place in Palestine.

            After their defeat in 1967, initially they still held on to their refusal to accept the two state solution. But by the 1990s, the Arab nationalists changed tack again. At least the PLO changed tack. By then, they had another faction, the Islamists headed by Hamas. Hamas and others like them unabashedly held on to their philosophy of getting rid of the Jews of Palestine and establish a shiny Arab and Islamic state.

            The PLO on the other hand pretended to agree to a two state solution and to recognise Israel. But not Israel as a Jewish nation state. Moreover, despite the promises of their leader Arafat when he said to Rabin “no more terrorism”, terrorism actually increased after Oslo was signed. That’s why Rabin made his famous saying that he will fight for peace as if no terrorism exists and will fight the terrorists as if there is no peace process.

            So in summary, despite the shennanigans of the PLO about peace and the two state solution, it is obvious that they still believe in Arab supremacy. And in Israel’s destruction. They make this abundantly clear by refusing to amend their national charter which talks about Israel’s destruction, despite having promised to do so in written letters to Clinton. They also make it abundantly clear by continuing terror tactics and refusing to sign a peace deal with Israel which would leave Israel as a Jewish majority state. To this day, the PLO insists that Israel must agree to the “return” of millions of descendants of Arab refugees (no mention of course of Jewish refugees).

            So, Carmen. Which side resembles the KKK more in the above story? Hint: since 1948, the Jews of Palestine built a thriving country which has an Arab minority, 20% of it’s population. Some of whom are happy to be Israeli citizens many are not because they side with their Arab brethern in the West Bank and Gaza. But when they are given the choice of becoming citizens of the proposed new Palestinian state without moving or giving up lands or any assets, just by redrawing the borders (the Lieberman plan), they are horrified and say “no thanks”. Would anyone reject such a choice if they would live under an apartheid like rule? Not bloody likely!!!

            Anyway, lady, ya wanna look for KKK? You don’t need to go further than Hamas. And the PLO is no better.

            PS
            I still don’t know why I bothered writing all of the above. I know it is wasted on you Carmen. You prefer to peddle PLO and Hamas lies and to tell us fairy tales. But some good might come of it. Even if one person reads what I wrote and bothers to verify it by reading reputable history books (not Arab or EXTREME leftist/right wing propaganda), some good might come of it. So thank you Carmen for prompting me to go to the trouble 😜

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            I don’t know why you bothered either. ​You know I used to think the term “delusional” that others applied to you was too strong, Gussie. But now I see why the term applies. You live inside an impenetrable organized thought system, an incorrigible set of fixed false beliefs. As stubborn as a mule. With no reasoning that has ever persuaded non-fanatics. It’s why your right wing fellow travelers here rarely make the claims you do the way you do–they are much more straightforward and honest: “It’s ours, not theirs, tough; by hook or by crook we are going to take it.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Ben

            ​Your beliefs, Gussie, boiled down to their essence: “We give, they don’t give; they have gotten, we have not gotten; they need to ‘compromise’ and we already have; they have done a lot of wrong, we not so much; they started it, we reacted; they are the aggressors, we are the victims; we need the West Bank for ‘security’, they don’t need anything but bantustans; we can never trust them but they should trust us; they aren’t a real people, we are; their narrative doesn’t matter, our narrative is truth; they hate, we don’t; ‘they’ are all the world’s Arabs and ‘we’ are the Jews; and I am their spokesman; the USA is a “Christian State” [shockingly ignorant and wrong about the very essence and foundation of the American Republic]; and Israel, the “Jewish State” as we mean it and practice it is the same as America “the Christian state” so what’s the problem?; the USA is our ally but only when it suits us and when it doesn’t we get ugly about it, what’s the problem?; diaspora Jews are our ally but only when it suits us and when it doesn’t we dismiss you and we’ll patronize the hell out of you while we’re at it; but I am your self-appointed spokesman nevertheless.”

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            BS Benny.

            You are full of straw men. I am not even going to bother to respond to your post. People can read for themselves what I have ACTUALLY been saying.

            You are full of it Benny. And again your aim is just to obfuscate that long post about Zionism which your co-ideologue, Carmen coerced out of me. You don’t like to see that history summarised in black and white, do ya? And you know what? If you put up some more obfuscating posts to cover it, I will copy and paste it again. Howzat? 😛

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “With no reasoning that has ever persuaded non-fanatics”

            Let me guess Benny, you consider yourself a non-fanatic?

            But let me tell you Ben. You are deluded. Self deluded. Not only are you a fanatic but you are also a bigot. At first I thought that you are only bigotted against Jews but lately I became aware that you are bigotted against Christians too.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “I still don’t know why I bothered writing all of the above. I know it is wasted on you Carmen. You prefer to peddle PLO and Hamas lies and to tell us fairy tales. But some good might come of it. Even if one person reads what I wrote and bothers to verify it by reading reputable history books (not Arab or EXTREME leftist/right wing propaganda), some good might come of it. So thank you Carmen for prompting me to go to the trouble ”

            I don’t know why you bothered either Gustav – it looks like a half-assed homework assignment and you get an F for funny but you’ve written a zionist comic book so all is not lost. Thanks again for demonstrating you aren’t to be taken seriously. Textbook definition more or less of zionism and the rest on arab nationalism. What a joke. You’ve written the same thing over and over with little variation on these pages for years. Zionism is a fear-based ideology. Why is it some Jews (zionists mostly) believe their suffering and persecution trumps the suffering and persecution of others? That takes chutzpah to infinity and beyond.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            “Why is it some Jews (zionists mostly) believe their suffering and persecution trumps the suffering and persecution of others? That takes chutzpah to infinity and beyond”

            Poor Arab nationalist lady. So tell us then:

            Why is it some Arab (nationalists mostly) believe their suffering and persecution trumps the suffering and persecution of others? That takes chutzpah to infinity and beyond.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Are you capable of answering those burning questions wrt Arab Nationalism, Carmen? I’ve posted to you, mouthpiece of the Arabists? Why should I or anyone else support Arabism/Arab Nationalism?

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            Biotch, please. I speak for no one but myself. You however…..

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            http://m.jpost.com/#article=6017M0MzMjkwQkVEMDE4NDc0NUExRUIwM0VGQzdDNEMzRUM=

            Arab IDF soldier: ‘I love this country and want to contribute’

            By REUTERS
            Wed, 07 Dec 2016, 01:40 AM

            Kol Hakavod. I have nothing but respect and admiration for Israeli Arabs who are like this. They represent the future of how we will get along. They are prepared to be part of the Jewish state as a respected minority. They don’t want to eliminate the Jewish state. They represent the face of the future.

            Have a nice day Carmen.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            “And again your aim is just to obfuscate that long post about Zionism which your co-ideologue, Carmen coerced out of me.”

            Alas, poor gustav! This bully always cries foul.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Bully? Who am I bullying? You lady? You are not too bad yourself. Not that you can bully me. But you have tried.

            I know, Carmen. I am a bully because I give as good as I get.

            Your complaint is similar to how the rest of you Palestinian Arabs operate. First you massacre some Jewish civilians then you celebrate “the martyrdom operation”. Then after you get restricted in order to minimise your chances of doing it again, you complain of bullying by Israel. You guys have got this down to a fine art. But be warned: it won’t work forever. People are waking up to you. The signs are all there. BREXIT, Trump and there will be more dominoes falling for you. Watch this space.

            Reply to Comment
          • Carmen

            Complain? Maybe you don’t understand most of the words you use. I’m making fun of you and have been for quite some time. You’re ego will tell you it’s something else. You’re ego is fucking with you. You play tough, then claim you were ‘coerced’ by me to write your mein kampf, then complain about how stupid you look for doing it. Seriously Gustav – you are your own worst enemy and have no one to blame but yourself. This article was written with people like you in mind. Please make sure and mansplain, it’s been working so well for you.

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Well lady, if you call what you do “making fun of me”, then you have no sense of fun.

            You sound more like foaming at the mouth angry when I am making fun of you and teasing you to kingdom come. I guess that’s why you called me a bully huh? Or was that just fun too? Funny lady? 😄

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Here, Lady, read about another one of Israel’s Arab citizens, Ayoob Kara. This is what he says about the Arab-Israeli conflict and peace:
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayoob_Kara Edit
            “Kara believes that Israel “has no one to make peace with” and that all the peace partners aim to weaken Israel. He noted that Israelis think like Europeans and do not understand the thought process in the Middle East.[34] He criticized the Oslo accords for giving “the criminal Palestinian leadership that was in Lebanonand Tunisia the legitimacy to be leaders in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.”[43]”

            What a decent and honest person he is. There will be more and more of him as his fellow Arabs start waking up to how their self interested demagogic leaders have been fooling them for years.

            Read it Carmen and please don’t spit your dummy. Ok?

            Reply to Comment
          • AJew

            Look Ben, no point in you and I arguing this out. We will never agree with each other.

            Suffice it to say that I find your approach as totally unbalanced. You always want to put the onus on us (Israel) in order to achieve a breakthrough. You expect nothing from the Arabs. That will just never work because in order for us to “give” we expect to “get” too. No point in detailing exactly what I mean because we covered this in the past, to exhaustion.

            And I also beg to differ with you about your claim that while the “Palestinians” suffer, they are incapable of compromising. To put a long story short, both sides (us and them) will in the end make the necessary compromises for peace when the “self interest” of each side will make us/them realise that compromise is necessary in order to achieve a better outcome, namely: peace.

            You people are doing your darnest to try and pressure us with your stupid BDS and other assortments of political pressure. We on the other hand are keeping the occupation going which isn’t a pleasant thing for the Palestinian Arabs. Ok, so the way things are going, there is an impasse which I think will go on for quite a while. I think the way this impasse will end is when one side or the other gets tired of all this nonsense either because of sheer exhaustion or because one side or another will come up with a new pressure point which will force the hand of the other side. I can tell you though Ben, if it depends on Israelis like me, Israel is going to be a very tough nut to crack because we are sick of hearing only “nyet”, “nyet” and more “nyet” from you, the Palestinian Arabs. You guys appear to expect us to just cave in to all your demands and in return you want to offer us nothing. Absolutely nothing. That just won’t do. That is no way to negotiate. And please don’t come up with your repetitive nonsense about the 78% – 22% because I will just point you at the map of the Middle East and the history of this conflict.

            Reply to Comment
    7. Carmen

      “Now do you understand how we feel about Jewish uncle Toms who side with your lot against their own?” No. I don’t even understand how you feel because you never speak in anything but ‘us’ and ‘we’. It’s so you to try to conflate antizionist Jews with ‘uncle tom’ described by Mr. X. Fail. Again. Here’s something easier. Explain what there is to love about zionism/zionists – I guess I never got the memo ticking off all of the wonderful attributes of this particular cult. Why should the world bow to the demands of zionists? Why is the u.s. beholden to the zionist state? Why is zionism constantly conflated with judaism – wait, I know that one. How does zionism compare with the nationalistic/racist alt-right, KKK, Golden Dawn, Jobbik, Alternative for Germany and the National Front? Any sunlight between them?

      Reply to Comment
      • AJew

        “Why should the world bow to the demands of zionists? Why is the u.s.”

        You tell us lady. Why are you asking me? Maybe it’s because Zionists control the world?

        Nah, nah, nah, it’s them Joooos according to people like you who like to read Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or Pappe, right lady?

        Funny though can I quote this Arab citizen of Israel again? Ok I will anyway:

        http://m.jpost.com/#article=6017M0MzMjkwQkVEMDE4NDc0NUExRUIwM0VGQzdDNEMzRUM=

        Arab IDF soldier: ‘I love this country [Israel] and want to contribute’

        By REUTERS
        Wed, 07 Dec 2016, 01:40 AM

        What do you think made him say it Carmen? And what about the rest of his Arab buddies, hundreds of them, who make it clear that they feel the same way? Is it because we treat Arab Israeli citizens harshly?

        Reply to Comment
    8. AJew

      “But anyway, this ought to make a tiny little light bulb go on inside your cramped cranium: “Eureka! Hey, maybe if we actually treated the mass of Palestinians with respect and dignity for once…”

      Stop right there Benny. Are you trying to confuse me? Or are you trying to confuse others? You mean those Arabs who said that they love this country (Israel) and have volunteered to serve in its army don’t live in the same Israel as other Arab citizens of Israel? You and I both know that they both live in Israel. But this lot of Arab citizens know full well that even in this time of war when we are at war with their kindred folks, we treat Arab Israeli citizens way better than most ordinary Arabs are treated in Arab countries. They also know that when peace comes, inevitably, Israeli Arab citizens will be treated even better. That is why they like us and are willing to be part of us.

      As for the Arabs of the West Bank, they will never be citizens of Israel. They will be citizens of the “shiny new state of Palestine” after at long last they will be Willing to sign a peace deal with us. In the meanwhile, the occupation has to continue. And if they resist it by committing terrorist acts against our civilians then their movements and their lives have to be restricted in order to minimize their ability to hurt us.

      Reply to Comment
    9. Ben

      ​My characterization of George Deek is more generous, or perhaps, as a non-Israeli, more naive, than Carmen’s but I don’t see the two characterizations as fundamentally at odds. Mr. Deek to me anyway has the apparent strength, security, extraordinary good will and charity to hold in willing suspension final judgment of how Israel will finally treat his people, and thus to seek reconciliation, with courage, but if the Israeli Zionists continue to do what they are doing (and absolutely nothing suggests they won’t) then all the ways Carmen describes the Zionists taking ruthless and cynical advantage of people like Deek will be borne out. I am not hopeful. I do not trust the character and intentions of the Zionist fanatics anymore than Carmen does. The comments on this site are eye opening. This conflict will end badly because the powerful in Israel are determined to engineer it that way. Conversations here have helped to convince me of that.

      Reply to Comment
    10. Carmen

      You’re incapable of answering questions with anything other than questions. Got it. You always speak for other jews – who gave you permission to do that? Not me that’s for sure. You’re compatriots on these pages have yet to come to your rescue and have left you out to dry. You’re an embarrassment to them, as hard to imagine any of them being embarrassed, but you most definitely are. Why do you hate Jews so damn much? It’s Jews like yourself, always speaking like you represent all Jewry, like the feckless blue-haired boobie king o’ the Jews. He’s done more harm to Jews than anything, but that’s his goal. Scare them into aliyah, that’s it! Then piss and moan about antisemitism! That’s chutzpah. You and boobie are the faces of antisemitism.

      Reply to Comment
    11. Ben

      ​My characterization of George Deek is more generous, or perhaps, as a non-Israeli, more naive, than Carmen’s but I don’t see the two characterizations as fundamentally at odds. Mr. Deek to me anyway has the apparent strength, security, extraordinary good will and charity to hold in willing suspension final judgment of how Israel will finally treat his people, and thus to seek reconciliation, with courage, but if the Israeli Zionists continue to do what they are doing (and absolutely nothing suggests they won’t) then all the ways Carmen describes the Zionists taking ruthless and cynical advantage of people like Deek will be borne out. I am not hopeful. I do not trust the character and intentions of the Zionist fanatics any more than Carmen does. The comments on this site are eye opening. This conflict will end badly because the powerful in Israel are determined to engineer it that way.

      Reply to Comment
    12. AJew

      Correction: Druze citizen. The Druze are not Jewish.

      The Druze (/druːz/;[13] Arabic: درزي‎‎ derzī or durzī, plural دروز durūz; Hebrew: דרוזי‎‎ drūzī plural דרוזים, druzim) are an Arabic-speaking esoteric ethnoreligious group,[14] originating in Western Asia, who self-identify as unitarians (Al-Muwaḥḥidūn/Muwahhidun).[15] Jethro of Midian is considered an ancestor of all Druze Marsh Arab ( Arab Badeya ) and revered as their spiritual founder as well as chief prophet.[16][17][18][19][20]

      Reply to Comment
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