<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Why did progressive U.S. Jewish groups oppose divestment?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/</link>
	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 13:20:42 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chicothecat</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/comment-page-1/#comment-68864</link>
		<dc:creator>Chicothecat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 13:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=50889#comment-68864</guid>
		<description>There really are only two options left: the ethnic one or the democratic one. Either Greater Israel surrounding up to 70 Palestinian cantons, an impoverished Gaza and an underclass of unwanted Arabs in what may continue to be defined as &quot;Israel proper&quot;; or the democratic one, with the same civil, legal and human rights for all from the river to the sea, with no walls or barriers and the same law for all. 

The first is what exists now (whether or not it is legalised in the terms suggested by Bibi&#039;s Levy Commission) with daily ethnic cleansing on both sides of the &quot;occupation&quot; lines and in Jerusalem. This will see BDS grow to become the prevalent condition of Israel&#039;s existence, whatever the arguments for and against. BDS will grow because the oppression and injustice will grow and be increasingly blatant and visible as the delusion of a peace process fades.

Only the achievement of a non-ethnic democracy will fulfill the conditions for the end of this struggle because without justice there cannot ever be long-term normality and peace. 

Such a non-ethnic democracy will put an end to the &quot;Jewish state&quot; which demands a guaranteed majority, and instead create a very Jewish country where voting will eventually settle into the usual patterns of left and right, rich and poor, secular and religious, north and south etc, across the ethnic blocs. 

This will happen. BDS is simply a means, and a good one because it enables sympathisers including many Jews (far outnumbering J-Street) to be involved in working for it. The issue has gone beyond 2-states or one: it&#039;s now entirely about apartheid vs. democracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There really are only two options left: the ethnic one or the democratic one. Either Greater Israel surrounding up to 70 Palestinian cantons, an impoverished Gaza and an underclass of unwanted Arabs in what may continue to be defined as &#8220;Israel proper&#8221;; or the democratic one, with the same civil, legal and human rights for all from the river to the sea, with no walls or barriers and the same law for all. </p>
<p>The first is what exists now (whether or not it is legalised in the terms suggested by Bibi&#8217;s Levy Commission) with daily ethnic cleansing on both sides of the &#8220;occupation&#8221; lines and in Jerusalem. This will see BDS grow to become the prevalent condition of Israel&#8217;s existence, whatever the arguments for and against. BDS will grow because the oppression and injustice will grow and be increasingly blatant and visible as the delusion of a peace process fades.</p>
<p>Only the achievement of a non-ethnic democracy will fulfill the conditions for the end of this struggle because without justice there cannot ever be long-term normality and peace. </p>
<p>Such a non-ethnic democracy will put an end to the &#8220;Jewish state&#8221; which demands a guaranteed majority, and instead create a very Jewish country where voting will eventually settle into the usual patterns of left and right, rich and poor, secular and religious, north and south etc, across the ethnic blocs. </p>
<p>This will happen. BDS is simply a means, and a good one because it enables sympathisers including many Jews (far outnumbering J-Street) to be involved in working for it. The issue has gone beyond 2-states or one: it&#8217;s now entirely about apartheid vs. democracy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: 32ndparallel</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/comment-page-1/#comment-68820</link>
		<dc:creator>32ndparallel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 04:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=50889#comment-68820</guid>
		<description>And by the way, accusing moderate American Jews who oppose BDS of being tantamount to racist segregationists shows just how desperate the bloggers on this site have become.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And by the way, accusing moderate American Jews who oppose BDS of being tantamount to racist segregationists shows just how desperate the bloggers on this site have become.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: 32ndparallel</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/comment-page-1/#comment-68818</link>
		<dc:creator>32ndparallel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 04:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=50889#comment-68818</guid>
		<description>The reason why progressive American groups oppose BDS efforts is very simple.  BDS activists have explicitly stated their intent to destroy Israel and forcibly replace it with a &quot;binational&quot; state, and nearly every American Jew on both the left and the right thinks that would be an utter disaster.  AFAIK you won&#039;t find a single American who hasn&#039;t at some point spouted off something anti-Semitic who favors a one-state solution. 

The history of multi-national states composed of warring ethnicities is just atrocious, and commonly leads to ethnic cleansing or genocide.  Yugoslavia, pre-partition India, Rwanda, Sri Lanka, and Turkey are just a few of the examples.  And need I even mention the history of Jews under Arab rule? (Hint: There aren&#039;t any any more.) Most of us progressive Jews have relatives who were viciously mistreated when living as minorities, and we don&#039;t seem to have forgotten history quite as fast as the bloggers on this site.

Do any of the one-staters here want to forcibly reunify Yugoslavia or India/Pakistan?  Or perhaps you hypocritically advocated Kosovo independence while simultaneously wanting to destroy Israeli independence?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason why progressive American groups oppose BDS efforts is very simple.  BDS activists have explicitly stated their intent to destroy Israel and forcibly replace it with a &#8220;binational&#8221; state, and nearly every American Jew on both the left and the right thinks that would be an utter disaster.  AFAIK you won&#8217;t find a single American who hasn&#8217;t at some point spouted off something anti-Semitic who favors a one-state solution. </p>
<p>The history of multi-national states composed of warring ethnicities is just atrocious, and commonly leads to ethnic cleansing or genocide.  Yugoslavia, pre-partition India, Rwanda, Sri Lanka, and Turkey are just a few of the examples.  And need I even mention the history of Jews under Arab rule? (Hint: There aren&#8217;t any any more.) Most of us progressive Jews have relatives who were viciously mistreated when living as minorities, and we don&#8217;t seem to have forgotten history quite as fast as the bloggers on this site.</p>
<p>Do any of the one-staters here want to forcibly reunify Yugoslavia or India/Pakistan?  Or perhaps you hypocritically advocated Kosovo independence while simultaneously wanting to destroy Israeli independence?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Edward Goldstein</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/comment-page-1/#comment-68786</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Goldstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=50889#comment-68786</guid>
		<description>There is a tradition of intermittent Palestinian nonviolence.  The latest, current eruption of concerted nonviolent efforts should be applauded and assisted, not ignored, condemned or denigrated.  There&#039;s no reason why someone supporting nonviolence cannot simultaneously pursue the conventional politics of lobbying, political giving and public information.  Nor does diplomacy negate nonviolence.  They could actually complement each other.  Some abhor and desparately try to choke off the current nonviolence because it highlights the diplomatic void and the bankruptcy of most political efforts...and because, as on various historical occasions, it may ultimately prove successful!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a tradition of intermittent Palestinian nonviolence.  The latest, current eruption of concerted nonviolent efforts should be applauded and assisted, not ignored, condemned or denigrated.  There&#8217;s no reason why someone supporting nonviolence cannot simultaneously pursue the conventional politics of lobbying, political giving and public information.  Nor does diplomacy negate nonviolence.  They could actually complement each other.  Some abhor and desparately try to choke off the current nonviolence because it highlights the diplomatic void and the bankruptcy of most political efforts&#8230;and because, as on various historical occasions, it may ultimately prove successful!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Edward [Goldstein]</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/comment-page-1/#comment-68783</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward [Goldstein]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=50889#comment-68783</guid>
		<description>Some of the comments ignore the reality that however desirable the 2-state solution was or wasn&#039;t (and it was my strong preference), the option is now destroyed by the de facto creation by Israel of one state between the sea and the river -- demograpohically and in terms of infrasturcure, education and tourism policies and, increasignly, legal provisions.  Many will deny it, but the challenge now is to figure out the future of the one state so many opposed but helped to create, often by their inaction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of the comments ignore the reality that however desirable the 2-state solution was or wasn&#8217;t (and it was my strong preference), the option is now destroyed by the de facto creation by Israel of one state between the sea and the river &#8212; demograpohically and in terms of infrasturcure, education and tourism policies and, increasignly, legal provisions.  Many will deny it, but the challenge now is to figure out the future of the one state so many opposed but helped to create, often by their inaction.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/comment-page-1/#comment-68781</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=50889#comment-68781</guid>
		<description>This article is absurd. These people so narcissistic that just because they seem to personally agree with BDS, and used to like J Street they feel the need to attack J Street because of a logical move. For one, the BDSM (BDS Movement, irony) is a one-state movement, J Street is two-states. Two, why the hell are people considering divesting from Israel when there is plenty else going on in the world. (I&#039;m praying they have no investments in any companies that do business with Iran, most African countries, China, Russia, any middle eastern country, many Latin American countries, Burma, any others). Answer? Because some Palestinian activists see it as a way to get their agenda item heard, fine thats absolutely legitimate, but pro-peace, pro-Israel activists have a perfectly legitimate case as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article is absurd. These people so narcissistic that just because they seem to personally agree with BDS, and used to like J Street they feel the need to attack J Street because of a logical move. For one, the BDSM (BDS Movement, irony) is a one-state movement, J Street is two-states. Two, why the hell are people considering divesting from Israel when there is plenty else going on in the world. (I&#8217;m praying they have no investments in any companies that do business with Iran, most African countries, China, Russia, any middle eastern country, many Latin American countries, Burma, any others). Answer? Because some Palestinian activists see it as a way to get their agenda item heard, fine thats absolutely legitimate, but pro-peace, pro-Israel activists have a perfectly legitimate case as well.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/comment-page-1/#comment-68772</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=50889#comment-68772</guid>
		<description>Y-man,
The boycott/divestment/sanctions of South Africa was an unjust means to accomplish a just end.

In the context, it was both necessary and possible, and the ends justified the means, especially as the parties themselves had decent leadership that was able to reconcile.

That is NOT confident in the case of Israel/Palestine.

Again, Israel is not foreign the way that South Africa was. Israel&#039;s economy is connected to the US economy. The South African economy relative to the US and European economy was a link of gold, diamonds, and some agriculture. 

South African gold and diamonds got into the world economy even with a boycott, though just took some additional middle men so less profits for the 1% of 1% there.

A boycott of Israel is a boycott of one&#039;s friends of friends.

And, again, to be successful it must be harsh, not incidental as currently. And, to get to being harsh, and to people that one&#039;s leaderships know and care about, is a different beast than organizing a shunning of an alien community.

And, again and again, the stated goals of the movement are vague, opportunistically so, almost designed to not be achieved.

Can I wish for that movement to be a &quot;success&quot;? 

No.

Can one guided by moral principles (as distinct from ideology)? 

Its their choice. I would say no.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Y-man,<br />
The boycott/divestment/sanctions of South Africa was an unjust means to accomplish a just end.</p>
<p>In the context, it was both necessary and possible, and the ends justified the means, especially as the parties themselves had decent leadership that was able to reconcile.</p>
<p>That is NOT confident in the case of Israel/Palestine.</p>
<p>Again, Israel is not foreign the way that South Africa was. Israel&#8217;s economy is connected to the US economy. The South African economy relative to the US and European economy was a link of gold, diamonds, and some agriculture. </p>
<p>South African gold and diamonds got into the world economy even with a boycott, though just took some additional middle men so less profits for the 1% of 1% there.</p>
<p>A boycott of Israel is a boycott of one&#8217;s friends of friends.</p>
<p>And, again, to be successful it must be harsh, not incidental as currently. And, to get to being harsh, and to people that one&#8217;s leaderships know and care about, is a different beast than organizing a shunning of an alien community.</p>
<p>And, again and again, the stated goals of the movement are vague, opportunistically so, almost designed to not be achieved.</p>
<p>Can I wish for that movement to be a &#8220;success&#8221;? </p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>Can one guided by moral principles (as distinct from ideology)? </p>
<p>Its their choice. I would say no.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gaudi</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/comment-page-1/#comment-68716</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=50889#comment-68716</guid>
		<description>BDS is another convenient way to scare Jews and make them close ranks around another impending Pogrom. This is also the entire current use of the Holocaust in Israeli politics.

Ignoring for the moment some deeper issues around &quot;democratic and jewish&quot;, the 1967 territories are a much simpler question. For 45 years now the majority of Israelis feel that the benefits of the occupation outweigh its costs. 

Every Israeli benefits economically from the occupation, whether they support it or not, thru the theft of water and its attendent lower price, the disposal of Israeli garbage in the West Bank, the extraction of building materials from the territories to name a few. For the more committed, those willing to cross the 1967 line, there are even greater benefits in the form of subsidized housing, jobs, education, water, electricity, roads, etc. 

To be successful, a boycott would not to affect this balance of power, which it only would if it affected all of Israeli society. With Israel&#039;s huge import/export ratio, every segment of Israeli society but the settlers will within days bear the increased costs of the occupation, changing the underlying balance of power, isolating the settlers as an internal enemy and lead to a South-African style resolution.

This spectre of success is EXACTLY why you see such hysterical effort on the part of the Israeli government and Jewish organizations to smear any such effort and pull out all the stops to squash it.

Like most people, US Jews are not very knowledgable about the occupation. Nor do they realize how they are manipulated by the establishment&#039;s scare tactics of smearing as &quot;anti-jewish&quot; any critic of Israeli policy. Things are somewhat different with governments, as they are well aware of the horros of the occupation, but there interests and Israel&#039;s significant American clout is the club by which other countries are kept in line.

In short, while an economic boycot of Israel would resolve the occupation very quickly, it will take a while to overcome the massive forces trying to squash it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BDS is another convenient way to scare Jews and make them close ranks around another impending Pogrom. This is also the entire current use of the Holocaust in Israeli politics.</p>
<p>Ignoring for the moment some deeper issues around &#8220;democratic and jewish&#8221;, the 1967 territories are a much simpler question. For 45 years now the majority of Israelis feel that the benefits of the occupation outweigh its costs. </p>
<p>Every Israeli benefits economically from the occupation, whether they support it or not, thru the theft of water and its attendent lower price, the disposal of Israeli garbage in the West Bank, the extraction of building materials from the territories to name a few. For the more committed, those willing to cross the 1967 line, there are even greater benefits in the form of subsidized housing, jobs, education, water, electricity, roads, etc. </p>
<p>To be successful, a boycott would not to affect this balance of power, which it only would if it affected all of Israeli society. With Israel&#8217;s huge import/export ratio, every segment of Israeli society but the settlers will within days bear the increased costs of the occupation, changing the underlying balance of power, isolating the settlers as an internal enemy and lead to a South-African style resolution.</p>
<p>This spectre of success is EXACTLY why you see such hysterical effort on the part of the Israeli government and Jewish organizations to smear any such effort and pull out all the stops to squash it.</p>
<p>Like most people, US Jews are not very knowledgable about the occupation. Nor do they realize how they are manipulated by the establishment&#8217;s scare tactics of smearing as &#8220;anti-jewish&#8221; any critic of Israeli policy. Things are somewhat different with governments, as they are well aware of the horros of the occupation, but there interests and Israel&#8217;s significant American clout is the club by which other countries are kept in line.</p>
<p>In short, while an economic boycot of Israel would resolve the occupation very quickly, it will take a while to overcome the massive forces trying to squash it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Y-Man</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/comment-page-1/#comment-68702</link>
		<dc:creator>Y-Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2012 16:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=50889#comment-68702</guid>
		<description>@Richard Witty You never answered whether you thought the Apartheid SA boycott was just. You say that the SA boycott was successful because &quot;it was possible to regard South Africa as foreign.&quot; Then you say, &quot;Israel is not foreign in that way to American Jews, nor to American Christians, nor to the whole world that remembers the recent holocaust, even if just by photograph, and grandmother’s story.&quot; uggghhhh, way to cheapen the actual memory of the Shoah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Richard Witty You never answered whether you thought the Apartheid SA boycott was just. You say that the SA boycott was successful because &#8220;it was possible to regard South Africa as foreign.&#8221; Then you say, &#8220;Israel is not foreign in that way to American Jews, nor to American Christians, nor to the whole world that remembers the recent holocaust, even if just by photograph, and grandmother’s story.&#8221; uggghhhh, way to cheapen the actual memory of the Shoah.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: DHRF</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/why-did-progressive-american-jewish-groups-oppose-divestment-from-occupation/50889/comment-page-1/#comment-68701</link>
		<dc:creator>DHRF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2012 16:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=50889#comment-68701</guid>
		<description>Palestinians are free to organize their own civil disobedience campaigns, as the writers argue.  But demanding that American Jewish groups sign on ignores the fact that our interests are slightly different.  Advocating for a two state solution because we want to see a Jewish and democratic Israel survive and thrive is not the same thing as advocating for Palestinian human rights and freedoms, much as that is an important and desired goal.  Likewise, it would be silly to demand that the thrust of the Palestinian civil disobedience is for the benefit of the Jewish state, so it can have internationally recognized borders and a Jewish majority.  American Jews should be no less respected for our choice of tactics in this struggle than the Palestinians or Presbyterians for that matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Palestinians are free to organize their own civil disobedience campaigns, as the writers argue.  But demanding that American Jewish groups sign on ignores the fact that our interests are slightly different.  Advocating for a two state solution because we want to see a Jewish and democratic Israel survive and thrive is not the same thing as advocating for Palestinian human rights and freedoms, much as that is an important and desired goal.  Likewise, it would be silly to demand that the thrust of the Palestinian civil disobedience is for the benefit of the Jewish state, so it can have internationally recognized borders and a Jewish majority.  American Jews should be no less respected for our choice of tactics in this struggle than the Palestinians or Presbyterians for that matter.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
