Comments on: What’s next for Egypt, Israel and the elusive peace treaty? http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Sat, 18 May 2013 16:26:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Piotr Berman http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/comment-page-1/#comment-45517 Piotr Berman Tue, 28 Feb 2012 02:54:46 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=36413#comment-45517 "... which is that for Israel’s hostile neighbours it’s not the actions of the Jewish state but its very existence which causes offence. " reminds me that They're probably watching me. Well, let them. Let them see what kind of a person I am. I'm not even going to swat that fly. I hope they are watching... they'll see. They'll see and they'll know, and they'll say, "Why, she wouldn't even harm a fly..." [Psycho] “… which is that for Israel’s hostile neighbours it’s not the actions of the Jewish state but its very existence which causes offence. ”

reminds me that

They’re probably watching me. Well, let them. Let them see what kind of a person I am. I’m not even going to swat that fly. I hope they are watching… they’ll see. They’ll see and they’ll know, and they’ll say, “Why, she wouldn’t even harm a fly…” [Psycho]

]]> By: John Yorke http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/comment-page-1/#comment-45503 John Yorke Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:31:40 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=36413#comment-45503 It may be observed that, with the arrival of the Arab Spring, all bets are potentially off where previous peace arrangements between Arabs and Israelis are concerned, even those of thirty years or more. This cannot have been entirely unexpected, emanating as it does from the sudden upheaval in various Arab power centres. Added to this are the decades of failure to address the Israeli/Palestinian situation, the constant friction that this has created and its continual intrusion into local and national politics. How to adequately answer this 64 year-old question becomes more pressing with each new day. Unless a more balanced and demonstrably effective system of control and justice is put in place sometime soon, then the future for the whole region looks decidedly bleak. This is not how it is supposed to be. An overarching solution is therefore needed, one that can be applied quickly and be seen to have verifiable and consistent impact. The methods used hitherto have been very hesitant, disjointed, prone to failure and lacklustre in performance. Why, after such a span of time, is there still no satisfactory form of redress whenever incidents of violence and injustice occur or appear to have taken place? If closure of any sort is ever to be achieved in this matter, there needs to be a constant stream of interaction between the problems encountered on a daily basis and the means by which those problems are solved and removed from further contamination of the scene. Nothing less will suffice. The problems here are very serious ones; they always have been, becoming ever more so with the passage of time. This deterioration will continue if left unresolved and without appropriate sanction. But what sanction can ever be considered appropriate and sufficient for so intractable a task ? Http://yorketowers.blogspot.com It may be observed that, with the arrival of the Arab Spring, all bets are potentially off where previous peace arrangements between Arabs and Israelis are concerned, even those of thirty years or more.
This cannot have been entirely unexpected, emanating as it does from the sudden upheaval in various Arab power centres. Added to this are the decades of failure to address the Israeli/Palestinian situation, the constant friction that this has created and its continual intrusion into local and national politics.

How to adequately answer this 64 year-old question becomes more pressing with each new day.

Unless a more balanced and demonstrably effective system of control and justice is put in place sometime soon, then the future for the whole region looks decidedly bleak. This is not how it is supposed to be.
An overarching solution is therefore needed, one that can be applied quickly and be seen to have verifiable and consistent impact. The methods used hitherto have been very hesitant, disjointed, prone to failure and lacklustre in performance. Why, after such a span of time, is there still no satisfactory form of redress whenever incidents of violence and injustice occur or appear to have taken place? If closure of any sort is ever to be achieved in this matter, there needs to be a constant stream of interaction between the problems encountered on a daily basis and the means by which those problems are solved and removed from further contamination of the scene. Nothing less will suffice.
The problems here are very serious ones; they always have been, becoming ever more so with the passage of time. This deterioration will continue if left unresolved and without appropriate sanction.

But what sanction can ever be considered appropriate and sufficient for so intractable a task ?

Http://yorketowers.blogspot.com

]]> By: Huldah http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/comment-page-1/#comment-45497 Huldah Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:57:22 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=36413#comment-45497 Nervana, I feel you miss the point - which is that for Israel's hostile neighbours it's not the actions of the Jewish state but its very existence which causes offence. Increasingly the actions of Israel's neighbours are premised (wrongly in my view) that their dream of a 'world without Israel' - a theme underpinning gatherings such as the current Doha Conference - is possible. Nervana, I feel you miss the point – which is that for Israel’s hostile neighbours it’s not the actions of the Jewish state but its very existence which causes offence. Increasingly the actions of Israel’s neighbours are premised (wrongly in my view) that their dream of a ‘world without Israel’ – a theme underpinning gatherings such as the current Doha Conference – is possible.

]]> By: Abu Tanek http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/comment-page-1/#comment-45477 Abu Tanek Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:17:06 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=36413#comment-45477 The Arabs fought Israel for the Sake of the palestinians ? Gaza was "sponsored" by Egypt ? Odd. The Arabs fought Israel for the Sake of the palestinians ? Gaza was “sponsored” by Egypt ?

Odd.

]]> By: Nervana Mahmoud http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/comment-page-1/#comment-45428 Nervana Mahmoud Mon, 27 Feb 2012 14:00:42 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=36413#comment-45428 Thanks. Jump: The concession from the Egyptian perspective was Egypt's divorce from the Palestenian conflict. Remember the Arabs intially fought Isreal for the sake of the Palestenains and paid a hefty price as a result. The Arab League tried to offer a grand bargain in Madrid but it was rejected on the basis that itwas just a bluff!. For now It i spointlesss to dewell about the past as the events on the ground following the Arab spring are changing fast. I think the status quo won't survive for long, but who knows! Thanks. Jump: The concession from the Egyptian perspective was Egypt’s divorce from the Palestenian conflict. Remember the Arabs intially fought Isreal for the sake of the Palestenains and paid a hefty price as a result. The Arab League tried to offer a grand bargain in Madrid but it was rejected on the basis that itwas just a bluff!. For now It i spointlesss to dewell about the past as the events on the ground following the Arab spring are changing fast. I think the status quo won’t survive for long, but who knows!

]]> By: JUMP http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/comment-page-1/#comment-45404 JUMP Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:14:02 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=36413#comment-45404 Nervana, I think the lessons of Camp David are quite misread by nearly everyone in the Arab world. The way I see it, Sadat's visit to Israel was able to capture the imaginations of Israelis and firmly set the narrative that 'Egypt' wanted peace. By winning over popular opinion and emboldening the peace movement, there was tremendous pressure on the Begin government not to miss an opportunity for resolving the conflict. Thus Israel did not have the option to leave Camp David without a treaty. Sadat was thus able to get every single inch of land back that he wanted...in exchange for nothing. It is astounding to me that so many Egyptians view the peace treaty as if it involved huge concessions on their part. The continued imagining that some sort of regional bargain will get greater concessions out of Israel is absolutely wrong because it misunderstands how Israeli politics work and what drives Israelis. Israeli leaders thrive on being able to portray the region as being "everyone is against us" and Israelis are accustomed to it. Because it is seen as normal, isolation does not translate to pressure, as it might elsewhere. The way to pressure Israeli leaders is to win over Israeli society....So unless the entire Arab League decides to proactively embrace Israel, there really is no way that Israel will ever sign a regional peace treaty. Nervana,
I think the lessons of Camp David are quite misread by nearly everyone in the Arab world. The way I see it, Sadat’s visit to Israel was able to capture the imaginations of Israelis and firmly set the narrative that ‘Egypt’ wanted peace. By winning over popular opinion and emboldening the peace movement, there was tremendous pressure on the Begin government not to miss an opportunity for resolving the conflict. Thus Israel did not have the option to leave Camp David without a treaty. Sadat was thus able to get every single inch of land back that he wanted…in exchange for nothing. It is astounding to me that so many Egyptians view the peace treaty as if it involved huge concessions on their part.
The continued imagining that some sort of regional bargain will get greater concessions out of Israel is absolutely wrong because it misunderstands how Israeli politics work and what drives Israelis. Israeli leaders thrive on being able to portray the region as being “everyone is against us” and Israelis are accustomed to it. Because it is seen as normal, isolation does not translate to pressure, as it might elsewhere. The way to pressure Israeli leaders is to win over Israeli society….So unless the entire Arab League decides to proactively embrace Israel, there really is no way that Israel will ever sign a regional peace treaty.

]]> By: Piotr Berman http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/comment-page-1/#comment-45376 Piotr Berman Mon, 27 Feb 2012 01:29:24 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=36413#comment-45376 Nervana, nice to see that you respond. Militarily, the core of the peace treaty is that Israel stays away from Sinai, but Egypt is not allowed to have a more than a token of military force. Small changes will have, well, small effects, large changes are probably too expensive for Egypt in the short run. With one exception: allowing Gaza full import/export, and/or tolerating the smuggling of "good stuff" that would make Gaza as well armed as Lebanon. Just doing the former would cause life of individual Palestinians to be better in Gaza then in West Bank, which would undermine the quisling arrangement in West Bank. Abbas regime is like a zombie that for years and years does not want to admit that it is actually dead. Nervana, nice to see that you respond.

Militarily, the core of the peace treaty is that Israel stays away from Sinai, but Egypt is not allowed to have a more than a token of military force. Small changes will have, well, small effects, large changes are probably too expensive for Egypt in the short run. With one exception:

allowing Gaza full import/export, and/or tolerating the smuggling of “good stuff” that would make Gaza as well armed as Lebanon.

Just doing the former would cause life of individual Palestinians to be better in Gaza then in West Bank, which would undermine the quisling arrangement in West Bank. Abbas regime is like a zombie that for years and years does not want to admit that it is actually dead.

]]> By: Nervana Mahmoud http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/comment-page-1/#comment-45337 Nervana Mahmoud Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:26:13 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=36413#comment-45337 Thank you for your comments. -The lesson from Camp- David is simple, partial deals are not enough for comprehensive peace. Therefore Israel should try to seek a "grand deal" with its Arab neighbours including the Palestinians. - Gaza relationship with Egypt is not simple, it is not just border and passports. it is a massive security & economical challenges. Going back to the pre-1967 ( when Egypt sponsored Gaza & Jordan sponsored the West Bank) won't help a future Palestinian state. Finally, sorry, can't really comment about the current security situation in Sinai as I don't have enough informations. Thank you for your comments.

-The lesson from Camp- David is simple, partial deals are not enough for comprehensive peace. Therefore Israel should try to seek a “grand deal” with its Arab neighbours including the Palestinians.

- Gaza relationship with Egypt is not simple, it is not just border and passports. it is a massive security & economical challenges. Going back to the pre-1967 ( when Egypt sponsored Gaza & Jordan sponsored the West Bank) won’t help a future Palestinian state.

Finally, sorry, can’t really comment about the current security situation in Sinai as I don’t have enough informations.

]]> By: pabelmont http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/comment-page-1/#comment-45336 pabelmont Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:26:11 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=36413#comment-45336 If Israel persists, as I expect, with unwillingness to return to "green line", Egypt and others will have as good a reason as they would need to break the treaty (in some respect or other). And, of course, Israel has already so persisted -- for 45 years. And nothing bad has happened yet -- but of course the Egyptian revolution has not yet got to a presidential election. A more interesting question (to me) is this: if Israel were to surprise us all by agreeing to withdraw to the green line, would such an agreement be enough -- after the horrors of the last 45 years -- to "defang" Arab-street animus against Israel? Or are there, in other words, crimes which cannot be forgiven? To put it another way, and assuming that any sort of Israeli worry about Arab animus makes sense (which I rather doubt, Israel and USA being rather strong military powers), does it make as much sense for Israel to "tough it out" -- as it has of course done for 45 years by refusing a "just and lasting peace" based on UNSC-242 and the 1967 lines -- as to make peace? Israel's apparent policy of transferring all the Palestinians out of Mandatory Palestine (or into minuscule bantustans) makes it seem that Israel fears nothing from any Arabs. Why then fuss about the treaty with Egypt. (I'm probably missing the point, here, that nothing is supposed to make any sense at all.) If Israel persists, as I expect, with unwillingness to return to “green line”, Egypt and others will have as good a reason as they would need to break the treaty (in some respect or other). And, of course, Israel has already so persisted — for 45 years. And nothing bad has happened yet — but of course the Egyptian revolution has not yet got to a presidential election.

A more interesting question (to me) is this: if Israel were to surprise us all by agreeing to withdraw to the green line, would such an agreement be enough — after the horrors of the last 45 years — to “defang” Arab-street animus against Israel? Or are there, in other words, crimes which cannot be forgiven? To put it another way, and assuming that any sort of Israeli worry about Arab animus makes sense (which I rather doubt, Israel and USA being rather strong military powers), does it make as much sense for Israel to “tough it out” — as it has of course done for 45 years by refusing a “just and lasting peace” based on UNSC-242 and the 1967 lines — as to make peace?

Israel’s apparent policy of transferring all the Palestinians out of Mandatory Palestine (or into minuscule bantustans) makes it seem that Israel fears nothing from any Arabs. Why then fuss about the treaty with Egypt.

(I’m probably missing the point, here, that nothing is supposed to make any sense at all.)

]]> By: Piotr Berman http://972mag.com/whats-next-for-egypt-israel-and-the-elusive-peace-treaty/36413/comment-page-1/#comment-45335 Piotr Berman Sun, 26 Feb 2012 17:58:24 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=36413#comment-45335 "-It could encourage Israel to wash its hands completely of any responsibility toward Gaza, forcing Egypt to deal with its economical and security challenges. The recent electricity deal could be just the start." This is something I do not understand. Negative consequences of "Israel washing hands", separation of Gaza from the rest of Palestinians, is already done. Israel breaks all conventions it does not like. What would be a negative side of Egypt completely opening border with Gaza (I mean, for normal human traffic with passports, import and export)? “-It could encourage Israel to wash its hands completely of any responsibility toward Gaza, forcing Egypt to deal with its economical and security challenges. The recent electricity deal could be just the start.”

This is something I do not understand. Negative consequences of “Israel washing hands”, separation of Gaza from the rest of Palestinians, is already done. Israel breaks all conventions it does not like. What would be a negative side of Egypt completely opening border with Gaza (I mean, for normal human traffic with passports, import and export)?

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