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What Palestinian citizens of Israel can learn from the civil rights movement

Despite recent improvement in the economic situation of Palestinian citizens of Israel, many remain suspicious of the Israeli government and its motives. Palestinians must look back at the legacy of the black American struggle for equality, drawing on lessons that they can use to further their own cause.

By Robert Cherry

Bedouins who live in the Negev desert and local activists demonstrate in center Tel Aviv against the Prawer-Begin plan, August 31, 2013. According to the plan, which the government failed to consult the Bedouin community on when drafting, nearly all residents in the unrecognized Negev villages will be evicted and forcibly relocated to planned communities. (photo: Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

Thanks to Israeli government efforts, there has been a substantial improvement in the economic wellbeing of its Palestinian citizens. Whereas in the period 1997-2005, after adjusting for inflation, Palestinian family income declined, during the next six years it rose by more than 7 percent. By contrast, Jewish family income increased by more during the earlier than the most recent period.  The following essay will identify five ways in which the Palestinian community can learn from the economic advancements made by black Americans in recent decades.

1. Can economic advancements be a catalyst for social and political improvements?

After the initial civil rights gains, many U.S. whites maintained negative attitudes toward black Americans. In Israel, strong anti-Palestinian attitudes remain so that Palestinians doubt that many of the current government initiatives can be sustained.  I am more hopeful, however, because I believe, just as it happened in the U.S., a growing professional class will push successfully for social and political changes.

2. Is a moral commitment to equality necessary to sustain government efforts when a significant share of the majority population is not supportive of equality?

In the U.S., efforts were sustained because many government officials were driven by a strong moral commitment towards equality. While there are notable exceptions like Manuel Trajtenberg (who led the 2011 negotiations between the government and the social protest leaders), the Israeli government is driven by economic concerns. With a growing Palestinian population, they reason that Israel can no longer leave such a large segment of its population behind if it is to maintain its global competitiveness. Some anti-Palestinian officials are particularly committed to raising the employment levels of Arab women. They are not driven by a moral commitment to gender equality but a belief it will reduce welfare costs and Palestinian birth rates. Even the hi-tech industrialists who are funding important educational and employment initiatives are motivated by economic, not moral considerations.

For many observers these pragmatic motives are disquieting. How can we applaud efforts and expect them to be sustained, when they lack a moral foundation? How can we expect these economic initiatives to be a springboard for broader changes when many officials are indifferent if not hostile to full equality?

In the U.S., because these moral concerns were not coupled with economic considerations, the business community was not an active participant in equality efforts. When manufacturers found it more profitable to relocate from their central city production sites, they left behind black youth to languish in central cities that became breeding grounds for illegal activities that landed millions in the criminal justice system. Thus, economic motives can be important, and even necessary, to sustain broader equality efforts.

3. Do critics dwell too much on abuses from the not-too-distant past?

Many black Americans continue to highlight past abuses – a history that shapes public policy perspectives. Past Jim Crow exclusionary practices explain why liberal Americans today are so outraged by attempts to institute voter ID card requirements. Similarly, because past racist educational policies tracked black students into dead end training programs, liberals now reject expanding high school vocational programs despite the fact that black high school graduation rates are abysmal.

In Israel, many Palestinians keep alive the memory of past abuses that shape current attitudes towards working with government agencies on local initiatives and enlisting in national service. Palestinian citizens would benefit from understanding how references in the U.S. to past abuses have been helpful in stemming new abuses like voter ID requirements. However, this could also limit support for helpful policies like vocational and apprenticeship programs.

4. Do government actions that trample basic human rights trump all other positive achievements? 

In the U.S., the criminalizing of so many young black Americans is a severe blemish on its democratic ideals. Countless numbers of black men and women have been imprisoned while stop-and-frisk policies in New York City (and the Trayvon Martin murder in Florida) highlight ongoing harsh policing policies. For some Americans, no matter how much the black professional class is increasing nor how many black politicians are elected, the U.S. will remain a fundamentally racist country as long as these policing abuses continue.

For many, the Israeli parallel is the government’s treatment of the Bedouin community. Given past practices and the threat to uproot tens of thousands of Bedouin from the Negev, many Palestinians consider Israel a racist country (despite the economic advances within their communities). Just as in the U.S., emphasizing only group victimization can become demoralizing and weaken the ability of individuals to make educational and career choices that enable them to move forward.

5. Is it possible to maintain group solidarity once significant class cleavages appear?

As the black professional class escaped the poor government services and harsh police tactics that typified their old neighborhoods, they no longer had the strong personal ties that would help them maintain unity with less fortunate black Americans.  These professionals were also less inclined to support confrontational behavior of a militant black leadership.

There are now the beginnings of such a transition in Israel. More Palestinian professionals are moving to integrated Israeli cities. Will their movement away from Arab villages create cleavages? Certainly, I expect that the Palestinian professional class will increasingly reject the confrontational behavior of the nationalist Arab parties and instead foster more constructive engagement. Will Balad become the party of the dispossessed just as Al Sharpton became the leader of black communities that were left behind? Only time will tell. But if the American experience is a guide, this cleavage will make it more difficult for the Palestinian community to maintain political unity.

Robert Cherry is Professor of Economics at Brooklyn College and author of the forthcoming article, “Increased Constructive Engagement among Israeli Arabs: The Impact of Government Economic Initiatives,” Israel Studies (Jan 2014).

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  • COMMENTS

    1. How to you see the Community Law, which prevents mobility in living? Is it a backlash against Palestinian Israeli citizen economic advances? Will it slow departure from prior communities?

      An internal black middle class was essential for organizing protest. At first, upward mobility aids mobilization. Once the protest becomes successful, that evolved middle class goes even further upward, with prior community organization unraveling. I don’t think the right usually realizes that protest is a temporary phenomenon.

      Reply to Comment
    2. The Trespasser

      Mobility in living contradicts the very idea of economic or advances. Children of nomads hardly ever go to schools or universities, thus low level of lifehood and high crime rates.

      The state does not need tribesmen with 1500 years old traditions but rather highly skilled professionals.

      Reply to Comment
    3. David T.

      “Children of nomads hardly ever go to schools or universities …”

      Just another stereotype from a racist mindset.

      Israel’s Bedouin are opting for West Bank universities:
      “It’s very difficult to be accepted to universities in Israel.” The psychometric tests prevent many students from studying in Israel, “he says, “the tuition is very high and so are the travel expenses. In Hebron I pay NIS 7,000 a year for studies on Saturday and Sunday, which leave me the rest of the week for work.” ”
      http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-s-bedouin-are-opting-for-west-bank-universities-1.454483

      And why don’t you talk about the deliberate lack of government enforcement of the mandatory education law or insufficient budgets for Bedouin schools? Because this would reveal more racisism?

      Reply to Comment
      • The Trespasser

        >Just another stereotype from a racist mindset.

        I can see that you learned how to use google, but it is not enough.

        >“It’s very difficult to be accepted to universities in Israel.”

        That’s bullshit. The truth is that primitive, uneducated (thanks goes to their parents) and not particularly bright Bedouins are not qualified enough to study in any semi-respectable university.

        >The psychometric tests prevent many students from studying in Israel

        More bullshit. What is truth is that not each dumbass can pass these tests.

        >the tuition is very high

        Tuitions is high, so is the quality of education.

        >and so are the travel expenses.

        Bullshit.

        >In Hebron

        Hebron… “there is a large group of students studying in Hebron, and they choose two fields absent from Negev universities – Arabic language and Islam.”

        Two most useless fields of study.

        >I pay NIS 7,000 a year for studies on Saturday and Sunday, which leave me the rest of the week for work.”

        Not only unducated but also lazy. MANY Israeli students are studying full week in the university while working almost EVERY day – to pay for the studies.

        >And why don’t you talk about the deliberate lack of government enforcement of the mandatory education law

        Oh, there is deliberate lack now. So, in your head the government is obliged to chase Bedouins in the desert and force them to send their children to the school?

        >or insufficient budgets for Bedouin schools?

        Why waste money in a place where it would hardly make any good?

        >Because this would reveal more racism?

        Sorry, no “racism” detected.

        Reply to Comment
        • David T.

          “I can see that you learned how to use google, but it is not enough.”

          Nobody needs Google to recognice your infantile racist stereotypes. You seem to epitomize them. And it’s not worth wasting my time with your comments including no arguments, but the mere claim that something is BS. You don’t need any education for this, do you?

          “Not only unducated but also lazy. MANY Israeli students are studying full week in the university while working almost EVERY day – to pay for the studies.”

          So Bedouins who work during the whole week to study at the weekend are not only uneducated but also lazy. May I ask if you ever learned to use your brain in less racist and more rational way?

          “So, in your head the government is obliged to chase Bedouins in the desert and force them to send their children to the school?”

          In the head of civilized people there’s no difference regarding the heritage of those which the goverment should chase, if they don’t go to school. You never had a problem chasing Bedouins for no violations at all.

          “Why waste money in a place where it would hardly make any good?”

          I know, I’ve read the same when studying a certain period of Germany regarding Jewish history.

          “Sorry, no “racism” detected.”

          I doubt that you can even “detect” the laughable contradictions in your pathetic incitements.

          And I highly doubt, that you are able to even understand that racist stereotypes like “lazy” and “uneducated” are not only racist stereotypes when spoken against Jews.

          So who knows what kind of ‘education’ you enjoyed and where.

          Reply to Comment
          • The Trespasser

            >…but the mere claim that something is BS. You don’t need any education for this, do you?

            Not everyone need education to recognize bullshit. Although some would not be able to do that even if dipped into it.

            .>So Bedouins who work during the whole week to study at the weekend are not only uneducated but also lazy.

            Yep.

            You see, the option are.
            1) Go to uni, work and study hard every day and get some engineering degree.
            2) Go to some under-rated college, study 2 days per week and get a degree in your mother language – or your religion.

            Obviously, ANY person who would chose 2nd option is A) lazy and B) uneducated and will remain such.

            >May I ask if you ever learned to use your brain in less racist and more rational way?

            I’m afraid you might not, for you do not really know what rationale is,

            >In the head of civilized people there’s no difference regarding the heritage of those which the government should chase, if they don’t go to school. You never had a problem chasing Bedouins for no violations at all.

            I see. So at one hand Israeli government is obliged to educate Bedouin children against the will of their parents, while at another hand the very same government is obliged to let Bedouins live as they please.

            >I know, I’ve read the same when studying a certain period of Germany regarding Jewish history.

            Yeah, Germans are very good teachers. Rational and efficient.

            >I doubt that you can even “detect” the laughable contradictions in your pathetic incitements.

            No, I’m not. And since you are not pinpointing any, I’ll have to assume that there are none.

            >And I highly doubt, that you are able to even understand that racist stereotypes like “lazy” and “uneducated” are not only racist stereotypes when spoken against Jews.

            What I could not understand is the gibberish you had written in this one sense.

            Reply to Comment
          • David T.

            > “Obviously, ANY person who would chose 2nd option is A) lazy and B) uneducated and will remain such.”

            So first you claim Bedouins as such to be lazy and uneducated. Now they even are, if they work all week to afford going to university on weekends where they study in their mother language. What about Jews who work only on weekend and study in Hebrew? Are they even more lazy and uneducated than these Bedouins?

            > “I’m afraid you might not, for you do not really know what rationale is, …”

            I’m sure that you think that your racist stereotypes are rational. Antisemites ‘think’ the same.

            > “I see. So at one hand Israeli government is obliged to educate Bedouin children against the will of their parents, while at another hand the very same government is obliged to let Bedouins live as they please.”

            I said that a civilized society doesn’t differentiate applying rules because of different heritage of faith.

            “Yeah, Germans are very good teachers. Rational and efficient.”

            I’m, sure that some Germans are you biggest teachers when it comes to creating racist sterotypes. Some of your stereotypes seem to be right out of their books.

            “And since you are not pinpointing any, I’ll have to assume that there are none.”

            Thank you for proving my point, that you’re not able to see a contradiction when you call people who work during the whole week so they can study at the weekend lazy and uneducated.

            “What I could not understand is the gibberish you had written in this one sense.”

            Thank you again for proving my point that I highly doubt that you are able to even understand that racist stereotypes like “lazy” and “uneducated” are not only racist stereotypes when spoken against Jews.

            Reply to Comment
          • David T.

            > “Wrong again, I don’t love you.”

            No, you love to play dumb to disctract from the fact that you don’t condem Trespasser’s racism.

            > “And you are a racist, David.”

            I’m sure you can prove that by quoting a racist stereotype from my postings. That is, if you are not a pathetic liar.

            > “You don’t even know what Zionism is.”

            You don’t have to, just watch how it behaves against Gentiles.

            > “LOL”

            You obviously don’t know anything about the relationship between Jews and Arabs in Palestine before Zionism. It doesn’t play well into your agenda which needs Palestinians to be Amalek to justify your atrocities.

            > “But you people are not whining about that. Because there are no Jews involved in that war.”

            No, because there’s noone stupid enough to justify it the way Hasbara clowns like you would.

            > “Yep, that’s what happens when you attack those who survived 2000 years of pogroms, persecutions and hatred and promise to annihilate them.”

            No, that happens when terrorists need war and expulsion to take over a country and to become a majority in it against the will of the majority of its citizens.

            > “Your views represent you very well.”

            I hope so, cause I’m against belligerent expansion of state territory and settling in occupied territories. I’m against keeping humans expelled and denationalized, because of their faith and to maintain the “character” of a state. With you and like minded people its different.

            > “We did no worse than what Arabs did to their Jewish citizens.”

            Are you trying to justify what you did to Palestinians, because of what was done to Jews?

            “Your country? I thought you tried to imply that you are not from America. Are you confused?”

            The confusion seems to start with you thinking.

            > “Are you saying we murdered 6 million Arabs who just minded their own business and didn’t attack us?”

            I’m saying that not only Israel massacred, expelled, denationalized and dispossesed its citizens or moved into their empty homes or razed more than 400 villages to the ground. Can you see the difference?

            > “Yep. Get over it. They acted as enemies so they were treated as enemies.”

            We’ve read the same apology, when some where put into concentration camps. Shall we get over it, too? No, we should build shrines to send the youth so they can justify their future atrocities by being sure that they will never be able to act worse than others.

            The truth is that the Palestinians would have been killed or expelled right away, if they had acted like enemies, but it was only about preventing them to return to their homes and their lands to declare these as abandoned. Even today they are not allowed to return to their lands within Israel.

            > “Even then, they were not treated as badly as Arabs treated their Jewish citizens. Or as the Western democracies treated their citizens from Germany, Japan and Italy during WW2.”

            Just build yourself another shrine.

            Reply to Comment
    4. Rick Chertoff

      This article,like most Israel supporters, blames the victim by disguising the source of the problem: Israel is a client Settler State which is not only based on racial segregation, but in the words of Israeli professor Gabi Piterberg, a scholar on the history of Zionism calls “exterminationist”. That my friends, is the problem- not the indigenous subject population. Give people equal opportunity and then you’ll have results that will lift everyone in the country. Otherwise, Israel will continue to drift into its well earned pariah status until it feels enough pain to change.

      Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        What you said is obscene. You claim that Jews are racists for wanting our own Jewish majority state. But in fact the main reason why we came to the conclusion that this is our only option is because of racism that we experienced in Europe, in Arab countries and yes, even in America. Yes America too. In WW2, when Jews were looking for sanctuary from Nazi persecution, America refused to accept Jewish refugees because “you had too many Jews already”. That is why Israel is needed. Get it?

        So, Rick, the only racists are people like you who deny that history and want us to continue being dependent on the whim of people like you rather than be masters of our own destiny.

        Reply to Comment
    5. The Trespasser

      >Give people equal opportunity

      Until Arab society remains primitive and backward, there is no point of talking about “equal opportunities”.

      Indeed, what “equal opportunity”, other than 5.56 FMJ, might be given to a person who married his wife when she was 9, believes that 1500 ago some dude was riding a flying horse and killed his own daughter because she was dating a Jew?

      Reply to Comment
    6. David T.

      So it is your believe that we also should deny a whole society “equal opportunities”, if we find one person amongst it who is guilty of being a pedophile and many persons amongst them believing that a dude many thousand years ago split the read sea and committed genocide against many people, because they were not of his heritage?

      Or are you simply not able of any primitive form of self awareness to recognize your pathetic racist idiocies?

      Reply to Comment
      • You go David T. I can’t do it. I feel like I’m facing the Hulk who is waiting for the word “bash,” thereupon which he will do. But without the trace of David Banner’s inclusive heart.

        Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        You love what Tresspasser said because it gives you the opportunity to take the high moral ground and 60 seconds of a sound bite. David put the BS aside and get serious.

        Israel and the Arabs have been involved in a 100 year war with each other. During most of those 100 years the Arabs clearly said that their aim was Israel’s total destruction. In other words, for Israel it was a war of survival. And you want Israelis to pretend that it is all just a friendly football game where everyone is equal and everybody will just shake hands at the end? The Arabs clearly don’t consider that Jews/Israelis have equal rights to themselves. Why do you expect more from us in the middle of this war?

        Seeing that you love to preach to us so much, Adavid, lets look at your own country’s history. What did you guys do in your war of survival? Let me refresh your mind. In WW2, you took fully fledged citizens of yours who were immigrants from Germany, Italy and Japan and put them in detention camps. We are not doing such things to Arabs. So stop preaching to us and mend your own morals first.

        Reply to Comment
      • The Trespasser

        >So it is your believe that we also should deny a whole society “equal opportunities”, if we find one person amongst it who is guilty of being a pedophile and many persons amongst them believing that a dude many thousand years ago split the read sea and committed genocide against many people, because they were not of his heritage?

        I’ll elaborate once more, for the brightest:

        If an ENTIRE SOCIETY (in democratic terms 50% + 1 person) endorses paedophilia and believes that 9 years old girls could be married, than I do not want any of members of said society ANYWHERE neaby my home, my children or my job.

        Same applies if an ENTIRE SOCIETY believes that a girl should be killed for dating a “wrong” men.

        Or if an ENTIRE SOCIETY believes that whoever laughs at their outdated myths should be murdered.

        The list could go on and on.

        >Or are you simply not able of any primitive form of self awareness to recognize your pathetic racist idiocies?

        My self-awareness is stating one simple thing – treat others as they are treating their own kin.

        Reply to Comment
    7. David T.

      “You love what Tresspasser said because it gives you the opportunity to take the high moral ground and 60 seconds of a sound bite. David put the BS aside and get serious.”

      It’s not me who loves his racism. But it’s you seem to have no problem with it.

      “Israel and the Arabs have been involved in a 100 year war with each other.”

      I wonder what Zionism had to do with it. Before they were babysitting each others kids.

      “During most of those 100 years the Arabs clearly said that their aim was Israel’s total destruction. In other words, for Israel it was a war of survival. And you want Israelis to pretend that it is all just a friendly football game where everyone is equal and everybody will just shake hands at the end?”

      Well, in our universe Israel doesn’t exist for 100 years. And I don’t want Israelis to pretend that it is a friendly football game since it was them who politically and physically destroyed Palestine. Talking about survival.

      “In WW2, you took fully fledged citizens of yours who were immigrants from Germany, Italy and Japan and put them in detention camps.”

      LOL. You don’t even know my origin.

      “We are not doing such things to Arabs.”

      Of course not, ‘you’ massacred, expelled, denationalized and dispossessed most of the Arab citizens of Palestine and either moved into their empty homes or razed more than 400 villages to the ground.

      No, you surely didn’t act like my country. You acted like a certain other country who did similar to Jews.

      And until 1966 you kept Israeli Arabs under military law an enclosed in enclaves under the same permit system which your beloved Apartheid entity expanded after 1967 into the rest of Palestine. You don’t even let Israeli Arabs return to their land in home WITHIN Israel and call them “present absentees”. You can be really proud of such terms and behaviour. It’s unique, even after 1945.

      Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        “… loves his racism. But it’s you seem to have no problem with it.”

        Wrong again, I don’t love you. And you are a racist, David.

        “I wonder what Zionism had to do with it.”

        You don’t even know what Zionism is. To you it is just a black and white cartoon boogeyman.

        “Before they were babysitting each others kids.”

        LOL

        “Well, in our universe … ”

        Your universe? Which universe is that? The fifth dimension?

        “since it was them who politically and physically destroyed Palestine. Talking about survival.”

        Yep, that’s what happens when you attack those who survived 2000 years of pogroms, persecutions and hatred and promise to annihilate them. You get your own medicine. Or maybe just a taste of it. In one hundred years of wars between Arabs and Jews there were about 60,000 deaths on both sides. The deaths in Syria exceeded that by far in just 3 years. But you people are not whining about that. Because there are no Jews involved in that war.

        “LOL. You don’t even know my origin.”

        Nor do I want to know. Your views represent you very well. By the way, Britain, Canada and Australia did the same thing to THEIR, citizens who were from Germany, Italy and Japan.

        “Of course not, ‘you’ massacred, expelled, denationalized and dispossessed most of the Arab citizens of Palestine”

        We did no worse than what Arabs did to their Jewish citizens.

        “No, you surely didn’t act like my country.”

        Your country? I thought you tried to imply that you are not from America. Are you confused?

        “You acted like a certain other country who did similar to Jews.”

        You are an obscene little man for making such comparisons. Are you saying we murdered 6 million Arabs who just minded their own business and didn’t attack us?

        “And until 1966 you kept Israeli Arabs under military law”

        Yep. Get over it. They acted as enemies so they were treated as enemies. Even then, they were not treated as badly as Arabs treated their Jewish citizens. Or as the Western democracies treated their citizens from Germany, Japan and Italy during WW2.

        Reply to Comment
        • David T.

          > “Wrong again, I don’t love you.”

          No, you love to play dumb to disctract from the fact that you don’t condem Trespasser’s racism.

          > “And you are a racist, David.”

          I’m sure you can prove that by quoting a racist stereotype from my postings. That is, if you are not a pathetic liar.

          > “You don’t even know what Zionism is.”

          You don’t have to, just watch how it behaves against Gentiles.

          > “LOL”

          You obviously don’t know anything about the relationship between Jews and Arabs in Palestine before Zionism. It doesn’t play well into your agenda which needs Palestinians to be Amalek to justify your atrocities.

          > “But you people are not whining about that. Because there are no Jews involved in that war.”

          No, because there’s noone stupid enough to justify it the way Hasbara clowns like you would.

          > “Yep, that’s what happens when you attack those who survived 2000 years of pogroms, persecutions and hatred and promise to annihilate them.”

          No, that happens when terrorists need war and expulsion to take over a country and to become a majority in it against the will of the majority of its citizens.

          > “Your views represent you very well.”

          I hope so, cause I’m against belligerent expansion of state territory and settling in occupied territories. I’m against keeping humans expelled and denationalized, because of their faith and to maintain the “character” of a state. With you and like minded people its different.

          > “We did no worse than what Arabs did to their Jewish citizens.”

          Are you trying to justify what you did to Palestinians, because of what was done to Jews?

          “Your country? I thought you tried to imply that you are not from America. Are you confused?”

          The confusion seems to start with you thinking.

          > “Are you saying we murdered 6 million Arabs who just minded their own business and didn’t attack us?”

          I’m saying that not only Israel massacred, expelled, denationalized and dispossesed its citizens or moved into their empty homes or razed more than 400 villages to the ground. Can you see the difference?

          > “Yep. Get over it. They acted as enemies so they were treated as enemies.”

          We’ve read the same apology, when some where put into concentration camps. Shall we get over it, too? No, we should build shrines to send the youth so they can justify their future atrocities by being sure that they will never be able to act worse than others.

          The truth is that the Palestinians would have been killed or expelled right away, if they had acted like enemies, but it was only about preventing them to return to their homes and their lands to declare these as abandoned. Even today they are not allowed to return to their lands within Israel.

          > “Even then, they were not treated as badly as Arabs treated their Jewish citizens. Or as the Western democracies treated their citizens from Germany, Japan and Italy during WW2.”

          Just build yourself another shrine for how bad you aren’t.

          Reply to Comment
    8. Samuel

      “No, you love to play dumb to disctract from the fact that you don’t condem Trespasser’s racism.”

      When you Arab condemn racism against Jews, come back and talk to me about racism of Jews against Arabs.

      “I’m sure you can prove that by quoting a racist stereotype from my postings. That is, if you are not a pathetic liar.”

      You are the only pathetic liar here DavidT. All your posts talk ONLY about what in your stupid opinion Israel does wrong and NOT about what Arabs do wrong. All your posts talk only about Arab rights but not Jewish rights. And to make things worse, you bring up racist analogies which have nothing to do with reality. You know what I mean?

      “You don’t have to, just watch how it behaves against Gentiles.”

      How does Zionism behave against gentiles?

      “You obviously don’t know anything about the relationship between Jews and Arabs in Palestine before Zionism.”

      Actually I do. Here, read about it:

      ” Nothing equals the misery and the sufferings of the Jews at Jerusalem, inhabiting the most filthy quarter of the town, called hareth-el-yahoud, the quarter of dirt, between the Zion and the Moriah, where their synagogues are situated – the constant objects of Mussulman oppression and intolerance,”

      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm

      “It doesn’t play well into your agenda … ”

      LOL, my agenda? Now you are a mind reader? What do you know about my agenda? I just want an end to the occupation and to have peace between Arabs and Jews. What I don’t want though is to grovel and offer unconditional surrender. Which is YOUR agenda for Israel.

      “No, that happens when terrorists need war”

      You mean Arab terrorists, right?

      SAMUEL:“Your views represent you very well.”

      DAVIDT:”I hope so, cause I’m against …”

      We know what you are against. You are against self determination for the Jewish people and our right to defend ourselves.

      “I’m saying that not only …..”

      You are saying nothing but BS and propaganda DavidT.

      “We’ve read the same apology …”

      Same apology? LOL. Where did you see me apologising?

      “when some where put into concentration camps.”

      Nobody who did that apologised for that you fool.

      “Shall we get over it, too?”

      You obviously already did.

      “No, we should build shrines to send the youth so they can justify their future atrocities”

      You mean like the PA is doing for the so called martyrs who massacred Israelis in their suicide bombing campaign between 2000 and 2005 before they were stomped on and were forced to quit?

      “The truth is ….”

      You wouldn’t know the truth even if you fell over it. Nor do you care about it.

      “Just build yourself another shrine about how bad you aren’t”

      Yea and you can get fucked too. That’s my way of responding to you saying the same thing to me slightly more politely. But hey, I am not a hypocrite like you. What you see is what you get.

      Reply to Comment
    9. David T.

      > “When you Arab condemn racism against Jews, come back and talk to me about racism of Jews against Arabs.”

      I’m still not an Arab and condemn racism as such. I also condem the racism in trying to frame others as Arabs or Jews.

      > “You are the only pathetic liar here DavidT. All your posts talk ONLY about what in your stupid opinion Israel does wrong and NOT about what Arabs do wrong. All your posts talk only about Arab rights but not Jewish rights. And to make things worse, you bring up racist analogies which have nothing to do with reality. You know what I mean?”

      Of course I do, you ARE a pathetic liar who can’t find a racist stereotype in my postings. And contrary to supremacists like you I don’t differentiate between Arabs and Jews when it comes to rights and neither support a state who differentiate between nationals and citizens to grant the former privileges. You know I’m not talking about Germany?

      > “How does Zionism behave against gentiles?”

      Read all the relevant UN resolutions and reports from human rights organisation. You know, the organisations your inhumane state sees as enemies. Would you like me to remind you of a state which also had problems with international institutions?

      > “Actually I do. Here, read about it: ”

      LOL, that was even before the Ottoman Empire abandoned the dhimmi status. Don’t you have something even older?

      > “I just want an end to the occupation and to have peace between Arabs and Jews. What I don’t want though is to grovel and offer unconditional surrender. Which is YOUR agenda for Israel.”

      Yeah, surrendering to international and human rights. You want Palestinians to allow Israel ignoring these and even recognize Israel as a state of not all of its citizens. Isn’t the called appeasement policy?

      > “You mean Arab terrorists, right?”

      I mean that every stupid sentence of you starts with “You mean …” And it wasn’t Arabs who needed a war and expulsion in 1948 to acquire territory for a state and become a majority in it, but a gang of racist and terrorist seperatists who used the absence of govermental law and order for implementing their oligarchic Apartheid Junta.

      > “You are against self determination for the Jewish people and our right to defend ourselves.”

      I don’t differentiate between Jewish and Arab Palestinians when it comes to their political national rights in 1948 and never claimed that anybody doesn’t have the right to defend himself. You think that Jews have the right to establish a state in a country through violence and expulsion and against the self determination of its majority.

      > “You are saying nothing but BS and propaganda DavidT.”

      The documents in Israel’s military archives prove very well, that Israel massacred, expelled, denationalized and dispossesed its citizens or moved into their empty homes or razed more than 400 villages to the ground.

      > “Same apology? LOL. Where did you see me apologising?”

      You are correct. You’re not apologizing for Israel making the Nonjewish citizens live in closed enclaves and putting them under military law and the same permit system until 1966 like the do today in the Westbank to illegaly confiscate and settle the rest of the land.

      > “You obviously already did.”

      No, it is you who wrote to get over the fact that Israel put it Arab citizens under military law until 1966, because Israel treated them as enemies.
      Nazi Germany treated Jews as enemies. Would you advise anybody to get over that, too?

      > “You mean like the PA is doing for the so called martyrs who massacred Israelis in their suicide bombing campaign between 2000 and 2005 before they were stomped on and were forced to quit?”

      Another “You mean”-idiocy. I mean the shrines in which Israel’s youth is morally prepared before they join taking part in oppressing, dispossessing and massacring Palestinians large scale. Nothing beats the cathartic moments when they realize that nothing they will ever do could be worse than gassing Jews. I see this comparisons over and over again, when Hasbara clowns argue, that what Israels does to Palestinians is not worse than … whatever.

      > “You wouldn’t know the truth even if you fell over it. Nor do you care about it.”

      It’s obvious that all you can do is to attack someone personally, if you can’t refute their arguments. I guess defending inhumane state behaviour towards minorities corrupts. Here’s what I wrote: The truth is that the Palestinians would have been killed or expelled right away, if they had acted like enemies, but it was only about preventing them to return to their homes and their lands to declare these as abandoned. Even today they are not allowed to return to their lands within Israel.

      > “Yea and you can get fucked too. That’s my way of responding to you saying the same thing to me slightly more politely. But hey, I am not a hypocrite like you. What you see is what you get.”

      It’s not politeness which keeps me from telling you what I see. I don’t like the taste of puke in my mouth and I don’t want you to go even more mental and make more Palestinians suffer for your sins.

      Reply to Comment
    10. Samuel

      “It’s obvious that all you can do is to attack someone personally, if you can’t refute their arguments.”

      Poor old David. You cannot cope with reality can you? Just read our arguments above. I thoroughly refuted ALL your claims and propaganda.

      The rest of your most recent post is not worthy of response. You are just repeating in it the same old BS which you already asserted above.

      Please go on arguing with yourself. LOL.

      Reply to Comment
    11. David T.

      You see? It is obvious that all you can do is to attack someone personally, if you can’t refute their arguments.

      Thank you for proving my point and helping me formulate arguments you don’t even see a chance of refuting.

      I will give you the last word, if it is nothing else than another desperate personal attack from a Hasbara troll.

      Reply to Comment
    12. Samuel

      “I’m still not an Arab”

      If you say so.

      “Of course I do, you ARE a pathetic liar who can’t find a racist stereotype in my postings.”

      You accused Israel to be Nazi like. Israel has survivors of Nazism and their descendants. Your accusation is not only unfounded but is meant to hurt victims of racism. You ARE a filthy racist for persisting with such accusations. Even after the glaring differences were pointed out to you. You just let it roll off you like water off a duck’s back.

      “And contrary to supremacists like you”

      I am a supremacist for standing up for Israel’s right to defend itself?

      Whatever.

      “I don’t differentiate between Arabs and Jews”

      Yes you do. Haven’t you read your own posts? You only defend Arab rights. Jews have no rights according to you.

      “States who …. differentiate between nationals and citizens to grant the former privileges.”

      Another unsubstantiated allegation that you were not able to prove.

      “You know I’m not talking about Germany?”

      You are talking about Arab countries whose constitution is based on Islam and who differentiate between Muslims and non Muslims.

      “Read all the relevant UN resolutions”

      you mean the very UN whose rulings you only accept selectively?

      You did not accept UN resolution 181 and UN resolution 242.

      “and reports from human rights organisation.”

      Which ones? The ones who appointed Gaddafi’s Libya to chair the human rights council?

      “You know, the organisations your inhumane state”

      LOL. Now there is a racist
      Statement. A state full of inhumane people? You are pathetic David.

      “Would you like me to remind you of a state which also had problems with international institutions?”

      No. I don’t trust hypocrites like you with double standards.

      “LOL, that was even before the Ottoman Empire abandoned the dhimmi status.”

      Really? But you pretended that Jews and Arabs got along just fine before Zionism. Obviously we didn’t. At least not always. At least some of the times we were persecuted by Muslims and Arabs when we were minorities. So that’s why we need our own state. And you are a racist for trying to deny us that right.

      “Don’t you have something even older?”

      Actually I do. I also have more recent examples of Arabs persecuting minorities.

      To be continued …

      Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        “… and even recognize Israel as a state of not all of its citizens.”

        Britain is a Christian state. The head of the state is the Queen. It has non Christian minorities with full rights.

        Do you call them a state not for all it’s citizens?

        “Isn’t the called appeasement policy?”

        No. It is allowing Jews to have the same rights that others take for granted. Only racists like you reject that concept.

        “I mean that every stupid sentence of you starts with “You mean …”

        Live with it or choke on it for all I care.

        “And it wasn’t Arabs who needed a war”

        Yes it was. They made war on the Jews of Palestine to make it Jew free. They not only admitted it but they boasted about their intentions.

        To be continued …

        Reply to Comment
        • Samuel

          “and expulsion in 1948 to acquire territory for a state and become a majority in it”

          As was provent to you in other blogs in +972, Israel had no policy of expulsion.

          Proof: Israel today has over 1 million Arab citizens.

          How many Jews remain in Arab countries? Answer: near zero. That’s expulsion for you. Arabs expelled about 1 million Jews. But you are not whining about that. Are, you David?

          “but a gang of racist and terrorist”

          Let me guess. You are talking about Arabs here? No, Jews. What a surprise.

          “seperatists”

          Yep. Separatists. We tried living as minorities and it didn’t work out for us David. In Europe because of people like you and yes Arabs too have people like you who discriminated against us and persecuted us.

          To be continued …

          Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            “for implementing their oligarchic Apartheid Junta.”

            Junta? You don’t even know the meaning of the word junta. Here, read all about it:

            “a military or political group that rules a country after taking power by force.
            “the country’s ruling military junta”
            synonyms: faction, group, cabal, clique, party, set, ring, gang, league, confederacy;”

            Israel is a democracy. Your Arabs could learn from it a thing or two …

            “I don’t differentiate between Jewish and Arab Palestinians”

            Yes you do. According to You, Arabs are entitled to have their own 22 independent Arab Muslim states. But we Jews must not even have one state of our own.

            ” … and never claimed that anybody doesn’t have the right to defend himself.”

            Yes you did. You accused us of responding to Arab attacks against us in 1948.

            “You think that Jews have the right to establish a state in a country through violence”

            We have the right to establish our own state. And if violence is used against us to prevent it, we are allowed to respond with violence.

            “and against the self determination of its majority.”

            We never tried to prevent the Arabs to establish their own state in 1948. They tried to prevent us from establishing OUR state.

            “The documents in Israel’s military archives prove very well, that Israel massacred, expelled BS, BS, BS ….”

            It proves nothing of the sort. Read what Benny Morris really said about what happened. He was the first leftie to tell really what happened. And no what he said was not always flattering to Israel. But it was not the BS that you people espouse either

            Reply to Comment
    13. David T.

      > You accused Israel to be Nazi like.

      This is impossible. Israel doesn’t commit genocide against Jews. And even someone accused Israel of being Nazi like, it would be no judgment about Jews as such whose majority doesn’t even live in Israel. So you fail to prove that I would use racist stereotypes against Jews as such. And you will always fail, because this is only to lie to counter the racism you support.

      > “I am a supremacist for standing up for Israel’s right to defend itself?”

      Ok, let’s count how many times you manipulate my quotes, twist my words, or simply lie because you don’t have the minimum of intellectual honesty to deal with my real arguments.

      Dishonesty Nr. 1. I wrote: And contrary to supremacists like you I don’t differentiate between Arabs and Jews when it comes to rights and neither support a state who differentiate between nationals and citizens to grant the former privileges. I never wrote that you are supremacist for standing up Israel’s right to defend itself. You manipulated my quote and that put words into my mouth, because all you can refute are your straw man arguments.

      “Yes you do. Haven’t you read your own posts? You only defend Arab rights. Jews have no rights according to you.”

      Dishonesty Nr. 2. I never said that Jews have no rights. That is just one of your pathetic and disgusting lies.

      “Another unsubstantiated allegation that you were not able to prove.”

      What is this article about?
      “In the previous case, the court ruled that the Jewish people must not be split into two nations, a “Jewish” nation, as Jews are customary known, and another “Israeli” nation. According to the verdict, the founders of the State of Israel never intended for Israelis to be a nation in their own right.”
      http://972mag.com/denying-israeli-nationality-only-perpetuates-discrimination/81597

      “You are talking about Arab countries whose constitution is based on Islam and who differentiate between Muslims and non Muslims.”

      Dishonesty Nr. 3. You are very well aware that I was writing about Israel. You manipulated my quote again.

      “You did not accept UN resolution 181 and UN resolution 242.

      Dishonesty Nr. 4 & 5

      I did not accept that resolution 181 was pushed through by the US threatening countries with aid cuts to acquire the necessary votes. And I did not accept that the UN avoided to transfer this serious case to the International Court of Justice dispite multiple proposals of UN members and the significance of this UN RECOMMENDAION (181 was nothing else) regarding the fundamental right to self determination of the citizens of Palestine (and not world Jewry). 181 was actually overruled by the Security Council resolution 46 in April 1948 because the UN saw the violence on the ground and tried to work on a solution to put Palestine under UN Trusteeship which was sabotaged by Israel’s declarence of Independence in clear violation of this resolution 46.

      And I did accept 242. I didn’t accept your false interpretations which you can’t even prove by quoting from 242 which clearly states that the admission of territory by war is inadmissable and not says a single word that Israel (and only Israel) could change its borders, but that it has to withdraw from territories it occupied in 1967. And contrary to you I also accept the following Security Council resolutions which condem Israel’s annexation of Jerusalem, the Golan Hights and Israel’s illegal settlement in these territories and in Gaza and the Westbank. You accuse me of picking resolutions. It’s you who picks only one and twists its wording.

      “Which ones?”

      Human Rights, Amnesty, BTSelem, Adalah, etc.

      “LOL. Now there is a racist Statement. A state full of inhumane people? You are pathetic David.”

      Dishonesty Nr. 6. I never wrote “A state full of inhumane people” I wrote “inhumane state”. It’s just another example of how pathetic you are who cant seem to react to any my comments without lying.

      “No. I don’t trust hypocrites like you with double standards.”

      And I don’t trust slanderers and liars like you. But why don’t you list states that besides Israel had massive problems with international institutions like the League of Nations or the UN, because of their crimes against international law?

      “But you pretended that Jews and Arabs got along just fine before Zionism. Obviously we didn’t. At least not always. At least some of the times we were persecuted by Muslims and Arabs when we were minorities. So that’s why we need our own state.”

      I pretended that Zionism worsened the relationship they had. But if it was bad allready before Zionism, why on earth did Zionists choose in 1878 to immigrate to Palestine? Why did Jews immigrate to Syria and what was to become Transjordan, if they had such a bad relationship with Arabs?

      “I also have more recent examples of Arabs persecuting minorities.”

      What examples do you have of Jews persecuting minorities before and since Zionism in historic Palestine? According to your logic this could give them a right to create a state Israel, no?

      “Britain is a Christian state. The head of the state is the Queen. It has non Christian minorities with full rights. Do you call them a state not for all it’s citizens?”

      Does Britain needs laws facilitating Christian immigration or keeping Nonchristians expelled and denationalized because it wants to survive as a Christian state, too? Does Britain wants to be recognized as a state for Christians and not for all its citizens?

      “No. It is allowing Jews to have the same rights that others take for granted. Only racists like you reject that concept.”

      Dishonesty Nr. 9. It is the same blatant lie you repeat over and over again: That I would not allow Jews to have the same rights as Nonjews, while it is you who wants to claim rights for Jews, no other people have. For example violating international and human rights and your claim that it would amount to surrender, if Israel would abide by it. Or to ask others to be recognized NOT not to be a state for ALL of its citizens, allthough Israel was a binational state from the beginning and envisaged as such by the UN. That is the racist concept, I reject and you support. And that is not all. You claim that Jews have a right to keep its Nonjewish residents expelled and denationalized to maintain a Zionist regime dominated by an actualy minotiry of Jews. That’s even Apartheid. You argue that 25% of citizens have the right to create a state, only if they are Jews in Palestine, but not if they are Nonjews in Israel. And it’s Israel which denies Palestine its independence, which you disregarding you initial logic don’t seem to find racist at all. To the contrary. You argue, that even its territory is “disputed”, but of course not all of historic Palestine. And that Jews have the right to acquire territory by war, to colonialize it under occupation and to allow its illegal settlers not to live under miliatary rule or Palestinian law, but Israeli law. Somehow you are painting Jews as people beyond international and human rights law. I find it actually quite antisemitic.

      “Yes it was. They made war on the Jews of Palestine to make it Jew free. They not only admitted it but they boasted about their intentions.”

      Dishonesty Nr. 10 I wrote: And it wasn’t Arabs who needed a war and expulsion in 1948 TO acquire territory FOR a state and become a majority in it, BUT a gang of racist and terrorist seperatists who used the absence of govermental law and order for implementing their oligarchic Apartheid Junta.

      You chose to chop of the sentence after “And it wasn’t Arabs who needed a war” without even indicating that you shortened my quote to significantly manipulate and alter its meaning to suggest that you refuted my argument.

      And no, they Arab delegation proposed the independance of Palestine and a democratic secular state with minority rights. Some Arabs warned or even threatened that Jews would be massacred and expelled, if they were to accept partition and prevent Palestine’s independence. The Arab armies later invented to prevent the Zionist Junta from taking over more land and expelling more of its residents and to restore law and order after the withtdrawal of the Mandatory Goverment. They crossed partition borders only in small areas and did not make an attempt for more, contrary to the Zionists wich even asked the Britains later in 1948 what they would think about them taking the rest of Palestine. The Jordanians even had an agreement with the Zionist to split up Palestine and fought only against them, after Zionists tried to take over Old Jerusalem.

      “As was provent to you in other blogs in +972, Israel had no policy of expulsion.”

      LOL. The only thing serious historians debate is, if Israel’s expulsion was systematically or not. That it had a “policy” of expulsion is obvious. Not only because it established a Transfer Commitee and Israel’s statefunder had not a moral problem with “cumpulsory transfer”, but also that it had to achieve a significant majority to stay one and secure further Jewish immigration. Jews even within partition borders were a slight minority, of Bedouins are included. And even if the Zionists didn’t have a “policy” of expulsion, they expelled not only most of Palestinian refugees (73% of refugees until June 1948 according to the Haganah’s Shai report, up to 100% afterwards) but actually all of them, by not letting them return and even stripping them of their new nationality.

      “Proof: Israel today has over 1 million Arab citizens.”

      LOL. The proof of a simple mind Not all could be expelled, not all expulsion orders were followed, not all could be prevented from sneaking back, a lot of Christians could return because of Vatican’s pressure and a lot of them were integrated by incorporating the little triangle as part of an armitiste agreement. And Israel stopped expelling to become a UN member. It’s first attempt was denied. And for Ben Gurion 80% majority of Jews were to be reached. Just wait what happens when Nonjews become 30% in Israel.

      “Let me guess. You are talking about Arabs here? No, Jews. What a surprise.”

      I’m talking about a gang of terrorists and seperatists who used the absence of govermental law and order for implementing their oligarchic Apartheid Junta in historic Palestine. I don’t care, if they are Jews or not. That’s your obsession.

      “In Europe because of people like you …”

      What did I do in Europe, you disgusting liar?

      “.. meaning of the word junta. Here, read all about it:

      “a military or political group that rules a country after taking power by force.”

      Thank you. This describes exactly the situation in historic Palestine today. Allthoug I have to admit that before 1967, the Zionist Junta had only taken over 78% of the territory by force.

      “Israel is a democracy.”

      Not for those it keeps expelled and denationalized. And definetly not for those who protest against inequality.

      “According to You, Arabs are entitled to have their own 22 independent Arab Muslim states.”

      Dishonesty Nr. 11 I never said a single word about what Arabs are entitled to or not. Again, it is you who has to differentiate between Jews and Arabs, because your moral is racist and anything but universal.

      Yes you did. You accused us of responding to Arab attacks against us in 1948.

      Dishonesty Nr. 12 Again, I never claimed that Jews had not the right to defend themselves. If they had defended themselves, they would not had acquired any new territory. They would not have razed more than 400 Nonjewish villages to the ground.

      “We have the right to establish our own state. And if violence is used against us to prevent it, we are allowed to respond with violence.”

      So every stateless people has a right to establish a state in Israel and if violence is used against them to prevent it, they are alloweed to response with violence. That is rich.

      “We never tried to prevent the Arabs to establish their own state in 1948. They tried to prevent us from establishing OUR state.”

      Again, it is necessary for you to differentiate between Arabs and Jews. Seperatists prevented the independence of Palestine which was the state of all Palestinians, Jewish, Arab and other citizens of Palestine. All the Palestinians had the right to decide their future goverment by referendum. No seperatists had the right to split up Palestine against the will of its majority. It doesn’t matter, if these seperatists were Jewish, British or Martians. That doesn’t lead to any rights, especially not for foreigners who were not citizens of Palestine. There does not exist an ethnic right to self determination. It is the right of the residents and citizens of a country. Secession is a serious attack against the territorial integrity of a country and not a right under international law.

      “It proves nothing of the sort.”

      Do you really want to deny that Israel massacred, expelled, denationalized and dispossesed its citizens or moved into their empty homes or razed more than 400 villages to the ground? Seriously? We can debate, if it was planned or not like anybody else who is serious about it. But I don’t argue with Holocaust deniers and I wont’t argue with Nakba deniers either. To me that’s the same immoral trash.

      Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        Ho, Hum David, you are still repeating what we already discussed. You don’t want to let it go? OK, I won’t either. Here goes …

        SAMUEL:”You accused Israel to be Nazi like.”

        DAVIDT:”This is impossible. Israel doesn’t commit genocide against Jews. And even someone accused Israel of being Nazi like, it would be no judgment about Jews as such whose majority doesn’t even live in Israel. So you fail to prove that I would use racist stereotypes against Jews as such. And you will always fail, because this is only to lie to counter the racism you support.”

        No David, Israel is the state of the Jewish people. You uniquely reject our right to have our own majority state and you specifically compared Israel to Nazi Germany which is a fabrication, a lie and is racist. I already explained why. Unlike you I don’t have to resort to mindless repetition and pretend that repetition proves my point. If anyone is interested, they can find my previous posts.

        SAMUEL: “I am a supremacist for standing up for Israel’s right to defend itself?”

        DAVIDT”Ok, let’s count how many times you manipulate my quotes, twist my words, or simply lie because you don’t have the minimum of intellectual honesty to deal with my real arguments.”

        Lets … To be continued …

        Reply to Comment
    14. Samuel

      DAVIDT:”What is this article about?
      “In the previous case, the court ruled that the Jewish people must not be split into two nations, a “Jewish” nation, as Jews are customary known, and another “Israeli” nation. According to the verdict, the founders of the State of Israel never intended for Israelis to be a nation in their own right.”

      The article does not say it like this but I will say it. The intention behind the creation of Israel was to let us the Jewish people have our own state. The state for the Jewish people where we are the majority. That does not mean that in this state there cannot be minorities. There can. Just as there are minorities in England. And just like in England, in Israel too the minorities have equal status by LAW. Equal rights except with regards to immigration. In neither country would any government allow the main population (Jews in Israel, English in Britain) to become a minority. In Israel this is declared up front, in Britain, it is not declared but the practice is maintained defacto. And in both countries, the minorities have the option to melt into the majority population through intermarriage and conversion. Or they can stay as minorities with full rights. What they do is left to the individual’s choice.

      Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        DAVIDT:”Dishonesty Nr. 1. I wrote: And contrary to supremacists like you I don’t differentiate between Arabs and Jews when it comes to rights and neither support a state who differentiate between nationals and citizens to grant the former privileges. I never wrote that you are supremacist for standing up Israel’s right to defend itself. You manipulated my quote and that put words into my mouth, because all you can refute are your straw man arguments.”

        You said that Israel has no right to exist and that Arabs had the right to attack the newly formed state of Israel in 1948. I then wrote that Israel had the right to defend itself. What is your problem with that?

        SAMUEL:“Yes you do. Haven’t you read your own posts? You only defend Arab rights. Jews have no rights according to you.”

        DAVIDT:”Dishonesty Nr. 2. I never said that Jews have no rights. That is just one of your pathetic and disgusting lies.”

        You said that we Jews have no right to have our own state, the state of Israel.

        SAMUEL:“You are talking about Arab countries whose constitution is based on Islam and who differentiate between Muslims and non Muslims.”

        DAVIDT:”Dishonesty Nr. 3. You are very well aware that I was writing about Israel. You manipulated my quote again.”

        No I didn’t. Everything you said described countries like Saudi Arabia for instance. As well as a few other Arab countries. Do you deny it?

        SAMUEL:“You did not accept UN resolution 181 and UN resolution 242.

        DAVIDT:”Dishonesty Nr. 4 & 5

        I did not accept that resolution 181 was pushed through by the US threatening countries with aid cuts to acquire the necessary votes. And I did not accept that the UN avoided to transfer this serious case to the International Court of Justice dispite multiple proposals of UN members and the significance of this UN RECOMMENDAION (181 was nothing else) regarding the fundamental right to self determination of the citizens of Palestine (and not world Jewry). 181 was actually overruled by the Security Council resolution 46 in April 1948 because the UN saw the violence on the ground and tried to work on a solution to put Palestine under UN Trusteeship which was sabotaged by Israel’s declarence of Independence in clear violation of this resolution 46.”

        We covered this too before, you fool. Let me summarise how it went again:

        A. You do not accept UN resolution 181.

        B. You claim that you don’t accept it because the UN itself over-ruled it. Let’s say I accept that as factual (I actually think that it is a lie). Even then, my point stands because you just proved my claim about the UN. That it is a corrupt, politicised and immoral organisation if individual powers or power blocs can twist it’s arm. In 1948 it was manipulated by the US and today it is manipulated by the Arabs and their Islamic allies.

        You selectively reject the UN verdict in 1948, resolution 181 but not subsequent pro Arab resolutions. That is being selective and biased.

        Unlike you, I reject the UN period. Because I am not a hypocrite like you.

        I say, Israel has the right to exist because we are here and we exist. I also say that you will die a bitter old and disappointed man because on your death bed we will still be here. We will still thrive and we will continue to go from strength to strength.

        DAVIDT:”And I did accept 242. I didn’t accept your false interpretations which you can’t even prove by quoting from 242 which clearly states that the admission of territory by war is inadmissable and not says a single word that Israel (and only Israel) could change its borders, but that it has to withdraw from territories it occupied in 1967.”

        Boooooring … read the following link written by Eugene Rostow. Unlike you, he was one of the architects of UN resolution 242. And he disagrees with your interpretation of it which you parrot from Arab propaganda sites:

        http://www.2nd-thoughts.org/id45.html

        Reply to Comment
        • Samuel

          SHMUEL:“But you pretended that Jews and Arabs got along just fine before Zionism. Obviously we didn’t. At least not always. At least some of the times we were persecuted by Muslims and Arabs when we were minorities. So that’s why we need our own state.”

          DAVIDT:”I pretended that Zionism worsened the relationship they had. But if it was bad allready before Zionism, why on earth did Zionists choose in 1878 to immigrate to Palestine? Why did Jews immigrate to Syria and what was to become Transjordan, if they had such a bad relationship with Arabs?”

          Are you really this foolish David? Or are you just pretending? We chose to return to Palestine because it was and is our country and we chose to start returning in the mid to late nineteenth century because it was the first opportunity we had to do so. AND because things were getting bad for us in Europe and Arab countries as minorities. We were being opressed and persecuted. You don’t think that was a good reason? OK then you can think what you like. I don’t care about what people like you think either.

          SAMUEL:“I also have more recent examples of Arabs persecuting minorities.”

          DAVIDT:”What examples do you have of Jews persecuting minorities before and since Zionism in historic Palestine? According to your logic this could give them a right to create a state Israel, no?”

          They too have the right to establish their own state side by side with ours. But not in place of ours. Did you hear me say anything else? You dimwit.

          SAMUEL:“Britain is a Christian state. The head of the state is the Queen. It has non Christian minorities with full rights. Do you call them a state not for all it’s citizens?”

          “Does Britain needs laws facilitating Christian immigration or keeping Nonchristians expelled and denationalized because it wants to survive as a Christian state, too? Does Britain wants to be recognized as a state for Christians and not for all its citizens?”

          No it does not. But it has an overwhelming majority of Christians. And rest assured that they are doing everything possible to maintain the majority of the Anglo Saxon population or watch the uproar if they don’t. And they have not even been involved with a 100 year war with the minorities who live amongst them. Nor do those minorities threaten to obliterate the state of the English people.

          SAMUEL:“No. It is allowing Jews to have the same rights that others take for granted. Only racists like you reject that concept.”

          DAVIDT:”Dishonesty Nr. 9. It is the same blatant lie you repeat over and over again: That I would not allow Jews to have the same rights as Nonjews, while it is you who wants to claim rights for Jews, no other people have.”

          Really? Is anyone saying that England has no right to exist? They do however say and you too say that we Jews are not allowed to have our own state.

          DAVIDT:”For example violating international and human rights and your claim that it would amount to surrender, if Israel would abide by it. Or to ask others to be recognized NOT not to be a state for ALL of its citizens, allthough Israel was a binational state from the beginning and envisaged as such by the UN.”

          No you are lying again. The UN partition proposed two states. It specifically called the states a Jewish state and an Arab state. And the Jewish state was to have a minority Arab population, which it DOES have.

          DAVIT:”That is the racist concept …. BS, BS, BS …”

          You are obsessed about calling us, the victims of 2000 years of racism as racist. That is racist.

          Having said that, some of us too unfortunately, are racist. Some of our extreme right wingers ARE racists. And some of our extreme left wingers are racists too, against US. You are one of those, David.

          Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            DAVIDT:”You chose to chop of the sentence after “And it wasn’t Arabs who needed a war” without even indicating that you shortened my quote to significantly manipulate and alter its meaning to suggest that you refuted my argument.”

            You fool. I chose to correct your lie that we the Jews needed a war.

            DAVIDT:”And no, they Arab delegation proposed the independance of Palestine and a democratic secular state with minority rights. Some Arabs warned or even threatened that Jews would be massacred and expelled, if they were to accept partition and prevent Palestine’s independence. The Arab armies later invented to prevent the Zionist Junta from taking over more land and expelling more of its residents and to restore law and order after the withtdrawal of the Mandatory Goverment. They crossed partition borders only in small areas and did not make an attempt for more, contrary to the Zionists wich even asked the Britains later in 1948 what they would think about them taking the rest of Palestine. The Jordanians even had an agreement with the Zionist to split up Palestine and fought only against them, after Zionists tried to take over Old Jerusalem.”

            You think that other Jews are morons like you? We had 2000 years of “democratic states with equal rights for Jews” and look how it worked out for us. In the systematic murder of our brethern by Nazis. To whom you compare us ecause of YOUR racism. And don’t pretend that Arabs too did not perpetrate massacres and pogroms against Jewish minorities who lived amongst them. Not to mention their discrimination against minorities, including us. You yourself mentioned the term Dhimi.

            SAMUEL“As was provent to you in other blogs in +972, Israel had no policy of expulsion.”

            DAVIDT:”LOL. The only thing serious historians debate is, if Israel’s expulsion was systematically or not. That it had a “policy” of expulsion is obvious. Not only because it established a Transfer Commitee and Israel’s statefunder had not a moral problem with “cumpulsory transfer”, but also that it had to achieve a significant majority to stay one and secure further Jewish immigration. Jews even within partition borders were a slight minority, of Bedouins are included. And even if the Zionists didn’t have a “policy” of expulsion, they expelled not only most of Palestinian refugees (73% of refugees until June 1948 according to the Haganah’s Shai report, up to 100% afterwards) but actually all of them, by not letting them return and even stripping them of their new nationality.”

            You can LOL all you like bet even your own statement is self contradictory. You say:

            “The only thing serious historians debate is, if Israel’s expulsion was systematically or not. That it had a “policy” of expulsion is obvious.”

            The only thing that is obvious are your lies and your lack of comprehension. If as you say, “Israel had a policy of expulsion” then there would not be a debate about it. The expulsions would have been systematic.

            By the way, you say “serious historians” did you mean historians like David Irving? Who the hell are you talking about? I mentioned Benny Morris. He is the recognised foremost authority on this subject and he specifically said THAT THERE WAS NO POLICY OF EXPULSION.

            And some Palestinian leaders admit it too. Here watch this BBC video:

            http://maurice-ostroff.tripod.com/deir_yassin.html

            “In this interview with the BBC he admits that in 1948 he was instructed by Hussein Khalidi, a prominent Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate claims of atrocities at Deir Yassin in order to encourage Arab regimes to invade the expected Jewish state. He made this damming admission in explaining why the Arabs failed in the 1948 war. He said “this was our biggest mistake”, because Palestinians fled in terror and left the country in huge numbers after hearing the atrocity claims.”

            The rest of your post is just more boring repetition. I won’t bother with it because I am not an autistic automaton like you David. You really are beginning to bore me.

            Reply to Comment
          • David T.

            H”o, Hum David, you are still repeating what we already discussed. You don’t want to let it go? OK, I won’t either. Here goes …”

            I’m repeating what you fail to discuss or try to distort.

            A state of the X nation is racist if 1.) the state’s citzens are not X 2.) the state ist not the state of its nation, but of X 3.) X is not the nationality of the of the states citizens.

            I don recect uniquely, but ANY regime, which needs to keep parts of its country’s population segregated/expelled, denationalized and/or without the right to vote so that another ethnic group becomes a majority and/or to maintain the domination of an actual minority regime. You “uniquely” approve of this in the case of the Jewish people.

            You falsely equate comparison with equation. I compared specific racist aspects and found similiarites which you falsely equate with sameness. The list of dissimilarities between both would be nearly endless. But the similarities can be found in the topics of:
            1.) Significant distinction between nationals (those who belong to the “nation”) and citizens of a state to grant the former priviliges.
            2.) Expulsion and denationalization of others to maintain a specific state character primarely based on ethnicity.
            3.) Annexation, occupation and colonialization of territories conquered in wars driven because of a Blood and Soil ideology

            I don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist as Israel doesn’t recognize Kosovo’s or Palestine’s right to exist. According to your defamation logic, Israel does so, because it hates the people of Kosovo and Palestine.

            As Israel doesn’t find Kosovo’s secession legal, I don’t find Israel’s secesssion legal. You can talk about the right of the Jewish people since 1948 as much as you like as I will talk about the right of the Palestinian people since 1919. Here’s your double standard: You cannot acknowledge the Palestinians rights, because then you would have to conclude that seperatists in Palestine had no right to secession as much as you would argue that seperatists in Israel don’t have them.

            And I never said that the Arabs had the right to 1.) “attack” a 2.) “newly formed state of Israel”. They had the right to 1.) intervene and defend the real existing State of Palestine against a gang of massacring and expelling terrorist and seperatists who 2.) only had proclaimed a state in clear violation of Security Council resolution 46 and without even asking it’s country’s residents if they wanted to secede. Here’s your double standard: You would never claim that the minority in Israel has the same rights, you want to claim for the minority in Palestine 1948.

            The article shows that Israel differenatiates between what it sees as its nations (which is the Jewish nation) and its citizens which is no the nation of Israel. You don’t even deny that Israel priviliges its “nation” which are not Israelis, because Israelis are not even considered to be the nation of Israel. The whole concept is utterly racist. Keep lying to yourself, that we the whole debate was not about Israel, but about countries like Saudi Arabia.

            I don’t “selectively” reject the “the UN verdict in 1948, resolution 181″, but because proposals to proof the legality of this recommendation by the International Court of Justice was rejected. But you reject the UN and 181 and 242, because you are not a hypocrite but more like someone who rejected the League of Nations because of the crimes of its country, right?

            And your “Arabs and their Islamic allies” conspiracy is just nuts. Saudia Arabia recently REJECTED a seat in the Securty Council, because it condems amongst other the Security Concil’s inability to carry out its duties regarding the Palestinian cause. The very same Security Council which condemned Israel’s annexation and colonialization of Jerusalem and the Golan Hights as the colonialization of Westbank (and earlier Gaza) and which reaffirmed the applicability of the Geneva Conventions in the occupied territory. And all of this without US veto. So, do the “Arabs and their Islamic allies” control the US when it comes to condemning Israel? Or do they no, when it comes to sanctioning Israel? I would like to see how that fits into your conspiracy theory but I’m sure your explanation will sound even more nuts, LOL.

            “I say, Israel has the right to exist because we are here and we exist. ”

            So if Israel has the right to exist, because you are there and you exist, then unitary Palestine before 1948 had the right to continue to exist, right?

            “Boooooring … read the following link written by Eugene Rostow. Unlike you, he was one of the architects of UN resolution 242.

            The Jewish extreme Hasbarat Eugene Rostow, definitely proof of “Arab Influence and their allies.” in the UN. LOL.

            “And he disagrees with your interpretation of it which you parrot from Arab propaganda sites:

            http://www.2nd-thoughts.org/id45.html

            It’s not my interpretation from Arab propaganda sites, but the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice:
            http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf
            But how should you know, who is hypocrit enough to even link to a “Jewish propaganda site” from the “founder member of the international Coalition of Hasbara Volunteers”. ROFL.

            Please, don’t bore us (the Jewish people) with your myth of exile and “returning” Jews. We are not millenia old undead. It will never be nor always was only “our country”, no matter how often we invade and expell the natives to rule it for the shortest of all times. Why did Jews (not you) choose to move to the Arab country Palestine after 1919, if things were geting bad in Arab countries?

            “Really? Is anyone saying that England has no right to exist? They do however say and you too say that we Jews are not allowed to have our own state.”

            Are you too stupid to understand, that I don’t allow anybody to create a state within a state against the will of the majority when the majority needs to be expelled and denationalized so that the minority can become a dominate as the new majority and doesn’t give citizenship to everybody? And Israel is saying that neither Kosovo nor Palestine has a right to exist. So what’s your problem besides the obvious judeocentric pseudomoral?

            “The UN partition proposed two states.”

            Doen’t matter, you reject the UN. Those who don’t reject the UN: In one state the UN proposed the population mix between Jews and Nonjews was even including the Bedouins. So the UN envisaged a binational state.

            Here’s the paragraph you quote with “…. BS, BS, BS …”

            You claim that Jews have a right to keep its Nonjewish residents expelled and denationalized to maintain a Zionist regime dominated by an actualy minotiry of Jews. That’s even Apartheid. You argue that 25% of citizens have the right to create a state, only if they are Jews in Palestine, but not if they are Nonjews in Israel. And it’s Israel which denies Palestine its independence, which you disregarding you initial logic don’t seem to find racist at all. To the contrary. You argue, that even its territory is “disputed”, but of course not all of historic Palestine. And that Jews have the right to acquire territory by war, to colonialize it under occupation and to allow its illegal settlers not to live under miliatary rule or Palestinian law, but Israeli law. Somehow you are painting Jews as people beyond international and human rights law. I find it actually quite antisemitic.

            “You are obsessed about calling us, the victims of 2000 years of racism as racist. That is racist.”

            You are obsessed with playing the victim card. Xou obviously don’t like to be confronted with your racist double standards and the racist crimes you claim to be Jewish rights. To argue that the victims of racist can’t be racist is pretty much stupid. That’s like saying that an abused child will never become an abuser. Nothing could be further from the truth.

            “Having said that, some of us too unfortunately, are racist. Some of our extreme right wingers ARE racists. And some of our extreme left wingers are racists too, against US. You are one of those, David.”

            I’m not a recist, because I don’t deny, support or justify expulsion, denationalization, annexation or colonialization or other ethnic crimes against humanity. You do, very extremely. And who do you call extrem left in Israel? You only have varieties of right extremism and a few “extreme left” which would be considered centered liberals in nearly all European countries, LOL. You are sinking into fascism without knowing it, because you don’t know what’s like to even discuss positions in Israel, which you call “extreme left”.

            “I chose to correct your lie that we the Jews needed a war.”

            You chose to manipulate my quote to alter its meaning. And not “the Jews”, but the Zionist terrorist and seperatists needed a war to acquire territory and expulsion to transform the Jewish Palestinians into a majority. It’s up to you to prove that they did achives this with humane means.

            “You think that other Jews are morons like you? We had 2000 years of “democratic states with equal rights for Jews” and look how it worked out for us.”

            I think that many Jews are morons like you, especially if they think that Jews had 2000 years of “democratic states with equal rights for Jews”.
            Look, how it worked and still works out for the Palestinians, when Zionist create a democratic states with equal rights for minorities. They even were so kind to make Palestinians a minority first.

            “In the systematic murder of our brethern by Nazis. To whom you compare us ecause of YOUR racism”

            No, I compare their racism not to Jews, but to your racism. Here is another dissimilarity. You don’t systematically murder Jews, well besides your systematic character assissination of those who learned from the Holocaust that neither Nonjews nor Jews should be racist and support or justify expulsion, denationalization, annexation or colonialization.

            “And don’t pretend that Arabs too did not perpetrate massacres and pogroms against Jewish minorities who lived amongst them. ”

            But only if you don’t pretend the Earth is flat. Btw. you failed to answer my question what examples you have of Jews persecuting minorities before and since Zionism in this ancient land which could explain their need for a state. And why should Jewish Palestinians have a right to a state in Palestine, when Arab, Druze, Christian or Bedouin Israelis don’t have a right to a state in Israel? Do the Palestinians according to your logic have the right to do anything possible to be a majority, because they have been with a 100 year war with the minorities who live amongst them and obliterated the state of the Palestinian people, right?

            “If as you say, “Israel had a policy of expulsion” then there would not be a debate about it. The expulsions would have been systematic.”

            A policy is not necessarily planned or carried out systematically. It can be carried out chaotically or sporadically as the situation presents or evolves. Morris uses the euphemism “transfer consensus”.
            http://www.haaretz.com/survival-of-the-fittest-1.61345

            “By the way, you say “serious historians” did you mean historians like David Irving?”

            Why do you mention him? Because he also denies that a formal policy existed?

            “I mentioned Benny Morris. He is the recognised foremost authority on this subject.”

            Recognised foremost authority by whom? By racist who like him wish that the expulsion would have been not partial but complete? By other Israeli historian who don’t use Arabic sources because they can’t read them? O by those that only choose sources which support their view?

            “… and he specifically said THAT THERE WAS NO POLICY OF EXPULSION.”

            That’s odd, because Avi Shlaim states that his Morris’ conclusion is not supported by the evidence that he presents such his statement that, “cultured officers … had turned into base murderers and this not in the heat of battle … but out of a system of expulsion and destruction; the less Arabs remained, the better; this principle is the political motor for the expulsions and the atrocities”.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris#Praise_and_criticism

            “And some Palestinian leaders admit it too.”

            Admit what exactly?

            “The rest of your post is just more boring repetition. I won’t bother with it because I am not an autistic automaton like you David. You really are beginning to bore me.”

            Yes, there are some arguments, you still can’t refute. Especially those who confront you with your double standards.

            P.S. Use you personal attacks on Palestinian children who can’t defend themselves.

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            By the way, David, with regards to your claim that Israel expelled Palestinian Arabs in 1948. Is there any particular reason why you ignored this in my previous post?

            “And some Palestinian leaders admit it too. Here watch this BBC video:”

            http://maurice-ostroff.tripod.com/deir_yassin.html

            “In this interview with the BBC he admits that in 1948 he was instructed by Hussein Khalidi, a prominent Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate claims of atrocities at Deir Yassin in order to encourage Arab regimes to invade the expected Jewish state. He made this damming admission in explaining why the Arabs failed in the 1948 war. He said “this was our biggest mistake”, because Palestinians fled in terror and left the country in huge numbers after hearing the atrocity claims.”

            Do you consider it an inconvenient truth that gets in the way of your myths?

            Reply to Comment
    15. Samuel

      SAMUEL:”Ho Hum David, you are still repeating what we already discussed. You don’t want to let it go? OK, I won’t either. Here goes …”

      DAVIDT”I’m repeating what you fail to discuss or try to distort.”

      Not only are you repeating just about everything at least three times now but you obfuscate with lengthy posts. Oh well, I’ll dish it out to you too.

      “A state of the X nation is racist if 1.) the state’s citzens are not X 2.) the state ist not the state of its nation, but of X 3.) X is not the nationality of the of the states citizens.”

      All states have minorities. So all states are racist? You sound ridiculous David.

      DAVIDT:”I don recect uniquely, but ANY regime, which needs to keep parts of its country’s population segregated/expelled,”

      The Arabs who fled Palestine in 1948 were never Israeli citizens. And before 1948 Palestine was not a sovereign country.

      Therefore, the Arab Palestinian refugees have two choices.

      1. They can be integrated into the populations of the Arab countries in which they live.

      2. They can return to the Palestinian state and live there when Israel and the Palestinian Arabs agree to a peace deal and a new Palestinian state will come into existence alongside Israel.

      Israel has no obligation to make thrm citizens. Especially since they attacked the Jewish state and the Jews for the last 100 years.

      DAVIDT:”denationalized”

      The only ones keeping them denationalised are the Arab countries in which they live who refuse to make them citizens in the same way that Israel made Jews who fled from Arab countries citizens .

      DAVIDT:”and/or without the right to vote so that another ethnic group becomes a majority and/or to maintain the domination of an actual minority regime. You “uniquely” approve of this in the case of the Jewish people.”

      Israeli Arab citizens DO have the right to vote in Israeli elections. Therd are over 1 million Israeli Arabs. But Arabs who are Non citizens don’thave the right to vote. Israel is not unique in that regard.

      DAVIDT:”You falsely equate comparison with equation. I compared specific racist aspects and found similiarites which you falsely equate with sameness. The list of dissimilarities between both would be nearly endless. But the similarities can be found in the topics of:
      1.) Significant distinction between nationals (those who belong to the “nation”) and citizens of a state to grant the former priviliges.”

      I repeat: there are only two laws in Israel that distinguish between citizens:

      A. Immigration.

      B. Security

      In that regard, Israel is no different than any other country which has been involved in a war of survival with it’s neighbors.

      Ho hum … More repetition.

      DAVIDT”2.) Expulsion and denationalization of others to maintain a specific state character primarely based on ethnicity.”

      And more repetition again …

      No, Israel had no policy of expulsion. Read Benny Morris.

      And no, Israel will not allow enemy populations to become Israeli citizens.

      DAVIDT:”3.) Annexation, occupation and colonialization of territories conquered in wars driven because of a Blood and Soil ideology”

      Ho hum … More repetition …

      Annexation? To the armistice lines? East Jerusalem? Which always had a Jewish population? The Golan, for security reasons? All in line with UN Resolution 242. As i mentioned at least 4 times already. More repetition …

      DAVIDT:”I don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist as Israel doesn’t recognize Kosovo’s or Palestine’s right to exist.”

      More lies and distortions by you David. Israel has not yet joined the list of countries who recognise Kosovo. It did not reject it’s RIGHT to exist. And Israel is actually negotiating and has previously offered at least twice peace terms that wold bring a Palestine into existence. But the Palestinians are holding out for terms that eould allow them to take over Israel too. That’s why there isn’t a Palestine yet.

      Here, read about Israel ‘s position regarding Kosovo:

      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Kosovo_relations

      DAVIDT”According to your defamation logic, Israel does so, because it hates the people of Kosovo and Palestine.”

      LOL, keep spinning David, just keep spinning. You fool.

      DAVIDT:”As Israel doesn’t find Kosovo’s secession legal, I don’t find Israel’s secesssion legal. You can talk about the right of the Jewish people since 1948 as much as you like as I will talk about the right of the Palestinian people since 1919. Here’s your double standard: You cannot acknowledge the Palestinians rights, because then you would have to conclude that seperatists in Palestine had no right to secession as much as you would argue that seperatists in Israel don’t have them.”

      Israel is biding it’s time regarding Kosovo. You and your Arab buddies claim that Israel has no right to exist. Spot the difference. You fool.

      Reply to Comment
    16. Samuel

      SAMUEL:”Ho Hum David, you are still repeating what we already discussed. You don’t want to let it go? OK, I won’t either. Here goes …”

      DAVIDT”I’m repeating what you fail to discuss or try to distort.”

      Not only are you repeating just about everything at least three times now but you obfuscate with lengthy posts. Oh well, I’ll dish it out to you too.

      “A state of the X nation is racist if 1.) the state’s citzens are not X 2.) the state ist not the state of its nation, but of X 3.) X is not the nationality of the of the states citizens.”

      All states have minorities. So all states are racist? You sound ridiculous David.

      DAVIDT:”I don recect uniquely, but ANY regime, which needs to keep parts of its country’s population segregated/expelled,”

      The Arabs who fled Palestine in 1948 were never Israeli citizens. And before 1948 Palestine was not a sovereign country.

      Therefore, the Arab Palestinian refugees have two choices.

      1. They can be integrated into the populations of the Arab countries in which they live.

      2. They can return to the Palestinian state and live there when Israel and the Palestinian Arabs agree to a peace deal and a new Palestinian state will come into existence alongside Israel.

      Israel has no obligation to make them citizens. Especially since they attacked the Jewish state and the Jews for the last 100 years.

      DAVIDT:”denationalized”

      The only ones keeping them denationalised are the Arab countries in which they live who refuse to make them citizens in the same way that Israel made Jews who fled from Arab countries citizens .

      DAVIDT:”and/or without the right to vote so that another ethnic group becomes a majority and/or to maintain the domination of an actual minority regime. You “uniquely” approve of this in the case of the Jewish people.”

      Israeli Arab citizens DO have the right to vote in Israeli elections. There are over 1 million Israeli Arabs. But Arabs who are Non citizens don’thave the right to vote. Israel is not unique in that regard.

      DAVIDT:”You falsely equate comparison with equation. I compared specific racist aspects and found similiarites which you falsely equate with sameness. The list of dissimilarities between both would be nearly endless. But the similarities can be found in the topics of:
      1.) Significant distinction between nationals (those who belong to the “nation”) and citizens of a state to grant the former priviliges.”

      I repeat: there are only two laws in Israel that distinguish between citizens:

      A. Immigration.

      B. Security

      In that regard, Israel is no different than any other country which has been involved in a war of survival with it’s neighbors.

      Ho hum … More repetition.

      DAVIDT”2.) Expulsion and denationalization of others to maintain a specific state character primarely based on ethnicity.”

      And more repetition again …

      No, Israel had no policy of expulsion. Read Benny Morris.

      And no, Israel will not allow enemy populations to become Israeli citizens.

      DAVIDT:”3.) Annexation, occupation and colonialization of territories conquered in wars driven because of a Blood and Soil ideology”

      Ho hum … More repetition …

      Annexation? To the armistice lines? East Jerusalem? Which always had a Jewish population? The Golan, for security reasons? All in line with UN Resolution 242. As I mentioned at least 4 times already. More repetition …

      DAVIDT:”I don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist as Israel doesn’t recognize Kosovo’s or Palestine’s right to exist.”

      More lies and distortions by you David. Israel has not yet joined the list of countries who recognise Kosovo. It did not reject it’s RIGHT to exist. And Israel is actually negotiating and has previously offered at least twice peace terms that wold bring a Palestine into existence. But the Palestinians are holding out for terms that eould allow them to take over Israel too. That’s why there isn’t a Palestine yet.

      Here, read about Israel ‘s position regarding Kosovo:

      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Kosovo_relations

      DAVIDT”According to your defamation logic, Israel does so, because it hates the people of Kosovo and Palestine.”

      LOL, keep spinning David, just keep spinning. You fool.

      DAVIDT:”As Israel doesn’t find Kosovo’s secession legal, I don’t find Israel’s secesssion legal. You can talk about the right of the Jewish people since 1948 as much as you like as I will talk about the right of the Palestinian people since 1919. Here’s your double standard: You cannot acknowledge the Palestinians rights, because then you would have to conclude that seperatists in Palestine had no right to secession as much as you would argue that seperatists in Israel don’t have them.”

      Israel is biding it’s time regarding Kosovo. You and your Arab buddies claim that Israel has no right to exist. Spot the difference. You fool.

      Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        DAVIDT:”And your “Arabs and their Islamic allies” conspiracy is just nuts. Saudia Arabia recently REJECTED a seat in the Securty Council, because it condems amongst other the Security Concil’s inability to carry out its duties regarding the Palestinian cause. The very same Security Council which condemned Israel’s annexation and colonialization of Jerusalem and the Golan Hights as the colonialization of Westbank (and earlier Gaza) and which reaffirmed the applicability of the Geneva Conventions in the occupied territory. And all of this without US veto. So, do the “Arabs and their Islamic allies” control the US when it comes to condemning Israel? Or do they no, when it comes to sanctioning Israel? I would like to see how that fits into your conspiracy theory but I’m sure your explanation will sound even more nuts, LOL.”

        Yea LOL. You know what I find strange? That a theocracy with the record of human rights abuses that Saudi Arabia has was elected to the security council at all. It just proves what I said about the power of the Islamic bloc and the sway of Arab petro dollars/blackmail in the UN.

        The fact that the Saudis had a hissy fit and rejected the seat, proves something else. It proves that they don’t always get EVERYTHING that they want because Israel too has some powerful allies that at least sometimes back IT up. But certainly not always. As they did not back up Cheslovakia up against Nazi Germany before WW2. Maybe they have learnt something out of that and they have not yet thrown Israel completely under the bus. But watch out for the fireworks if they would ever decide to do it. Maybe they know that and that’s why they haven’t gone the whole hog.

        Oh yea, and maybe because unlike you, there are still many people of conscience in the west, Gentiles, who have had enough of the old Jew hatred that you espouse. And they still have some sway about some things that happen in the UN and use their power of veto.

        SAMUEL:“I say, Israel has the right to exist because we are here and we exist. ”

        DAVIDT:”So if Israel has the right to exist, because you are there and you exist, then unitary Palestine before 1948 had the right to continue to exist, right?”

        Hey, I never said otherwise. You are the one who claims that it is Israel that hasn’t got the right to exist.

        What I DO say though is that the Arab Palestinian state has no right to REPLACE Israel. I believe in the 2 state solution. You are the one who rejects it, remember? You fool.

        SAMUEL:“Boooooring … read the following link written by Eugene Rostow. Unlike you, he was one of the architects of UN resolution 242.

        DAVIDT:”The Jewish extreme Hasbarat Eugene Rostow, definitely proof of “Arab Influence and their allies.” in the UN. LOL.”

        Errrr uhhhh ummmm … well no, not in America at least. Are you pissed off about that? LOL.

        Reply to Comment
    17. Samuel

      SAMUEL:”And some Palestinian leaders admit it too.”

      DAVIDT:”Admit what exactly?”

      Stop pretending to be an idiot David. I gave you this link in an earlier post. Watch the BBC video.

      http://maurice-ostroff.tripod.com/deir_yassin.html

      In the video, the Palestinians admit that Palestinian leaders deliberately exaggerated Israeli atrocities in order to coerce neighborig Arabs to intervene in the conflict.

      As a consequence, many Palestinians fled in terror. He called it a big mistake with unintended consequences.

      Reply to Comment
    18. Samuel

      SAMUEL:”And some Palestinian leaders admit it too.”

      DAVIDT:”Admit what exactly?”

      Stop pretending to be an idiot David. I gave you this link in an earlier post. Watch the BBC video.

      Dr. Hazem Nusseibeh was a representative of Jordan at the Mixed Armistice Commission and he was Minister of Foreign Affairs.He was also the Permanent Ambassador of Jordan to the UN and has authored several books, including The Ideas of Arab Nationalism, Palestine and the United Nations and A History of Modern Jordan. Watch what he admits onthe video:

      http://www.youtube.com/v/GkhSHiwzaIY&hl=en_GB&fs=1&rel=0

      In the video, the Palestinians admit that Palestinian leaders deliberately exaggerated Israeli atrocities in order to coerce neighborig Arabs to intervene in the conflict.

      As a consequence, many Palestinians fled in terror. He called it a big mistake with unintended consequences.

      Reply to Comment
      • David T.

        “Not only are you repeating just about everything at least three times now …”

        I’m sure its more times, because you avoid my arguments most of the time in multiple ways. Let’s see how often this time.

        “… but you obfuscate with lengthy posts.”

        Says the narcissist, who quotes himself to inflate his comments. LOL.

        “All states have minorities. So all states are racist? You sound ridiculous David.”

        No Samuel, this is just the first one this comment of your countless, pathetic attempts to avoid my argument. It’s a variation of your “You mean …”-stupidity. This time it starts with an uncontested statement. I continues with a ridiculous conclusion masked as a question. And then continuous with an insinuation which implies that this was my ridiculous conclusion. And this is exactly the reason why I have to repeat myself. This was my argument:

        A state of the X nation is racist if 1.) the state’s citizens are not X 2.) the state ist not the state of its nation, but of X 3.) X is not the nationality of the of the states citizens.

        I doesn’t even say something about minories, because my definition also works for Apartheid states.

        “The Arabs who fled Palestine in 1948 were never Israeli citizens. And before 1948 Palestine was not a sovereign country.”

        Palestine was a state under mandate which had it’s own citizenship which included all former turkish habitually resident in Palestine. This is the adequate transfer of nationality by a successor state. The nationality law of your racist Apartheid Junta conveniently 1.) stripped the right to citizenship of those it keeps 2.) segregated to maintain the domination of a Jewish oligarchy.

        “Israel has no obligation to make them citizens.”

        Israel had from the beginning the human right obligation to make all the residents of the new state its citizens. So did the mandated state of Palestine in the last century and so did Kosovo in this century.

        “Especially since they attacked the Jewish state and the Jews for the last 100 years.”

        Another racist accusation you will fail to prove when dealing with individuals. And I have to repeat my argument again since you repeat your incitement over on over again: Even, if they were angels, Israel would keep them segregated/expelled and denationalized to continue as and Apartheid state. And “Jewish state” only proves my point in my above argument about racist states: The state’s citizens are not “Jewish”. The state is not the state of the Israeli, but of the Jewish nation. And “Jewish” is not the nationality of the citizens of Israel.

        “The only ones keeping them denationalised are the Arab countries …”

        Imagine someone would be stupid enough to say that the only ones keeping Germany’s denationalized Jews denationalized was not Germany, but the countries which did not nationalize them. Do you even think, before you write?

        You know very well that Israel keeps them denationalized. Allthough it was obliged to nationalize them, being one of the successor states of Palestine. You always talk about resolution 181. You know that I question the legality of the GA to make such a recommendation. But it contained a paragraph dealing with the correct transfer of nationality of successor states: “Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem … become citizens of the State in which they are resident …”. That is the correct transfer of nationality. Anything else makes people stateless and that is a violation of human rights.

        “I repeat: there are only two laws in Israel that distinguish between citizens:”

        A. Immigration.
        B. Security.

        You mean two categories, not laws. Let me rephrase them:
        A Laws which privileg Jews, because they are Jews.
        B Laws which discriminate Nonjews, because they are Nonjews.

        “A” is a good example that proves my point: 1.) Significant distinction between nationals (those who are the only ones belonging to the “nation”) and citizens of a state to grant the former priviliges which is similar to another famous racist state.

        “In that regard, Israel is no different than any other country which has been involved in a war of survival with it’s neighbors.”

        Israel’s laws are not temporary laws in war times. Even if Israel had peace with everyone it will still continue to uphold laws which privilege Jews and discriminate Nonjews. Btw, about “war of survival”: “Over coffee one morning in early 1980 I took a deep breath and said to Shlomo [Gazit] (then Major General Retired): “I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s all a myth. Israel’s existence has never, ever, been in danger.” Through a sad smile he replied: “The trouble with us Israelis is that we’ve become the victims of our own propaganda.”
        http://www.alanhart.net/time-for-a-military-coup-in-israel/

        “No, Israel had no policy of expulsion. Read Benny Morris.”

        Who cares, if Israel had a “policy” of expulsion which Morris denys or a “transfer consensus” which Morris claims? The result is the same: expulsion. Benny Morris ignored his own statements like “cultured officers … had turned into base murderers and this not in the heat of battle … but out of a SYSTEM OF EXPULSION and destruction; the less Arabs remained, the better; this PRINCIPLE is the POLITICAL MOTOR FOR THE EXPULSIONS and the atrocities”. No “policy”? No system? No political motor? Ludicrous. And you repeteadly and miserably fail to adress the fact that refugees who are not allowed to return are considered to be expelled anyway and victims of an ethnic cleansing. So 2.) Expulsion and denationalization of others to maintain a specific state character primarely based on ethnicity IS a similiraty Israel shares with another famous racist state.

        “Annexation? To the armistice lines? East Jerusalem? Which always had a Jewish population? The Golan, for security reasons? All in line with UN Resolution 242. As i mentioned at least 4 times already. More repetition …”

        Yes, because you ignore at least 4 times my arguments. I don’t even believe that you understand what an annexation is, when you ask “to” the armistice lines? This is not about withdrawal, nor about occupation. Israel illegaly annexed Jerusalem and the Golan Heights which was condemned by several Security Council resolutions which you have to ignore. And no state has a right to annex an area, because of it’s population composition. Not Israel regarding East Jerusalem, nor Nazi Germany regarding the Sudetenland. Your nonsense is totally hypocrit, because you would never argue that Palestine or any other Arabs state, too, would have the the right to annex parts of Israel which always had an Arab population or for “security reasons”. And neither the shyster Rostow, nor 242 says a single word about allowing Israel to unilaterally annex territories, but speaks of the inadmissibility to acquire terrory by war (instead of by negotiations).

        So 3.) Annexation, occupation and colonialization of territories conquered in wars driven because of a Blood and Soil ideology is another similarity to a famous racist state.

        “More lies and distortions by you David.”

        Samuel the opinion fascist knows everything. He never makes mistakes, and if he does, it was in fact lies or distortions.

        “Israel has not yet joined the list of countries who recognise Kosovo. It did not reject it’s RIGHT to exist.”

        LOL. Not yet? Nearly 6 years have gone! And there’s no legal difference.

        “And Israel is actually negotiating and has previously offered at least twice peace terms that wold bring a Palestine into existence.”

        What are you talking about? Palestine within 1967 lines exist since it’s proclamation of 1988, was immediately recognized by about 90 states which was twice as much as in the case of Israel in its first years and it is recognized by the UN. The exercise of its souvereignity and independence is denied by the occupation of your most benevolent Apartheid state.

        “Here, read about Israel ‘s position regarding Kosovo: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Kosovo_relations

        WoW, “Israel was reluctant to recognise Kosovo’s independence in part because of the possibility of Palestine using such a recognition to justify their own unilateral declaration of independence”. Wow, the poor people of Kosovo are also affected by Israel’s denial of the Palestine’s right to exist. Was Israel’s declaration not unilateral? Hypocricy seems to be essential for Israel and it’s Hasbarats. And: “We haven’t decided when we’re going to decide, and instead will monitor events and consider the issue … Lieberman said that Kosovo’s independence is a “sensitive issue” and that Israel may recognise Kosovo after other countries like Greece and Spain accept it”

        OK. I will not longer make a statement wether Israel has a right to exist or not. I haven’t decided when I’m going to decide, and instead will monitor events and consider this sensitive issue. I may recognize Israel after other countries like Iraq, Syria or Lebanon accept it. And Iran. LOL.

        “LOL, keep spinning David, just keep spinning. You fool.”

        If not recognizing Israel is antisemitic, so is Israel, not recognizing Palestine. You opinion fascist.

        “Israel is biding it’s time regarding Kosovo. You and your Arab buddies claim that Israel has no right to exist. Spot the difference. You fool.”

        I will not longer claim that Israel has no no right to exist, only bide my time. You opinion fascist.

        You fail to adresse this argument: You cannot acknowledge the Palestinians rights, because then you would have to conclude that seperatists in Palestine had no right to secession as much as you would argue that seperatists in Israel don’t have them. Let me guess, you will not adress it, but accuse me of repetition. LOL.

        “Yea LOL. You know what I find strange? That a theocracy with the record of human rights abuses that Saudi Arabia has was elected to the security council at all. It just proves what I said about the power of the Islamic bloc and the sway of Arab petro dollars/blackmail in the UN.”

        No, it just proves that you don’t know that the Security Council is primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security. Would you say that Saudi Araba has attacked, annexed or colonialized more countries and territories than Israel?

        “Oh yea, and maybe because unlike you, there are still many people of conscience in the west, Gentiles, who have had enough of the old Jew hatred that you espouse.”

        Oh yea, they condem Israel’s annexation and colonialization, too, because they are like Jews who have conscience which is not you who is more of an opinion fascists who needs to accuse others of espousing Jew hatred, because he needs to divert from … let’s see what is it this time. Ah, there it is:

        What is it now, is the US controlled by Arabs and Islamic allies when it condems Israel? Or is it it controlled by Jews and Gentile Allies when it vetoes on Israel’s behalf and prevents sanctions against it?

        “Hey, I never said otherwise. You are the one who claims that it is Israel that hasn’t got the right to exist. What I DO say though is that the Arab Palestinian state has no right to REPLACE Israel.”

        This was not about an “Arab Palestinian state”. Again, if Israel has the right to exist, because you are there and you exist, then UNITARY Palestine BEFORE 1948 had the right to CONTINUE to exist like an Arab state WITHIN Israel would also have the right to exist, because in both cases Arabs are there and exist, right?

        I believe in the 2 state solution. You are the one who rejects it, remember? You fool.

        Yes, I believe in coexistence and equality. You are the one who rejects it, remember? You opinion fascist.

        “Errrr uhhhh ummmm … well no, not in America at least. Are you pissed off about that? LOL.”

        To the contrary, it means that the Security Council is not under “Arab or Islamic influence”, because they don’t control the US and its veto capability and therefore all Security Council resolutions against Israel about its illegal annexation and settlements and so on were without any anti Israel influence, because the US didn’t veto them. Did you just piss yourself? LOL.

        “Stop pretending to be an idiot David.”

        I just want to know what it’s like to be like you.

        “In the video, the Palestinians admit that Palestinian leaders deliberately exaggerated Israeli atrocities in order to coerce neighborig Arabs to intervene in the conflict. As a consequence, many Palestinians fled in terror. He called it a big mistake with unintended consequences.”

        Nobody denies that they deliberately exaggerated Israeli atrocities in Deir Yassin and that many fled, because of Israeli atrocities, exaggerated or not. So what is your argument? That the atrocities didn’t happen, cause Israel had not formal atrocities policy, read Benny Morris, Captan Hero of Israel’s historians? Oh no, he wrote: “cultured officers … had turned into base murderers and this not in the heat of battle … but out of a SYSTEM OF EXPULSION and destruction; THE LESS ARAB REMAIND, THE BETTER; this PRINCIPLE is the POLITICAL MOTOR FOR THE EXPULSIONS AND THE ATROCITIES”. Damn you Benny, espousing old hatred against Jews.

        Reply to Comment
        • Samuel

          DAVIDT:Nobody denies that they deliberately exaggerated Israeli atrocities in Deir Yassin and that many fled, because of Israeli atrocities, exaggerated or not. So what is your argument?”

          My argument was clearly stated before. But you chose to leave it out because you are dishonest. Here it is again:

          Many of the Arabs fled not because they were expelled but because their own leaders scared them out of their wits about what would happen to them if they don’t flee.

          “…read Benny Morris, Captan Hero of Israel’s historians? Oh no, he wrote: “cultured officers … had turned into base murderers and this not in the heat of battle … but out of a SYSTEM OF EXPULSION and destruction; THE LESS ARAB REMAIND, THE BETTER; this PRINCIPLE is the POLITICAL MOTOR FOR THE EXPULSIONS AND THE ATROCITIES”. Damn you Benny, espousing old hatred against Jews.”

          You are lying again David. Benny Morris wrote no such thing. You are making it all up out of pure hatred and malice.

          Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            David

            Once again I caught you with your pants down. Here look at this link. It tells you about what Benny Morris himself say:

            http://jeffweintraub.blogspot.com.au/2008/02/benny-morris-on-fact-fiction-propaganda.html?m=1

            In it, he talks about people like you when he says:

            “The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies – much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two.”

            Reply to Comment
          • Samuel

            Actually after a bit of further research, I now realise that Benny Morris DID use those harsh words to describe SOME expulsions by SOME individual Israeli commanders. I already admitted those facts, I just didn’t know that he used such a harsh description of what they did.

            Having said that, this if anything enhances Benny Morris’s credibility because as I previously said, he is fearless and does not pull any punches when he describes wrong doings by Israel too.

            But overall, Benny Morris clearly says that there was no POLICY of expulsion by Israel in 1948 (see links that I provided earlier). Action by SOME individual commenders YES, overarching policy of expulsion by the Israeli government, NO. That’s what Morris clearly says.

            Reply to Comment
    19. Samuel

      SAMUEL:“Not only are you repeating just about everything at least three times now …”

      DAVIDT”I’m sure its more times, because you avoid my arguments most of the time in multiple ways. Let’s see how often this time.”

      Well, at least you admit your repletion, that’s some progress. As for your allegation that I don’t respond properly, you bet I don’t. I debunk you at every turn and you don’t like it. So you try another angle. You boring little man.

      SAMUEL:“All states have minorities. So all states are racist? You sound ridiculous David.”

      DAVIDT:”No Samuel, this is just the first one this comment of your countless, pathetic attempts to avoid my argument. It’s a variation of your “You mean …”-stupidity. This time it starts with an uncontested statement. I continues with a ridiculous conclusion masked as a question. And then continuous with an insinuation which implies that this was my ridiculous conclusion. And this is exactly the reason why I have to repeat myself. This was my argument:”

      No, you repeat your questions because you have comprehension problems.

      I repeat. No state mono ethnic, mono religious or mono cultural. Yet the state has to cater to the identity of the majority of it’s citizens. That does not mean that minorities are oppressed.

      Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        “The Arabs who fled Palestine in 1948 were never Israeli citizens. And before 1948 Palestine was not a sovereign country.”

        DAVIDT:”Palestine was a state under mandate which had it’s own citizenship which included all former turkish habitually resident in Palestine. This is the adequate transfer of nationality by a successor state. The nationality law of your racist Apartheid Junta conveniently 1.) stripped the right to citizenship of those it keeps 2.) segregated to maintain the domination of a Jewish oligarchy.”

        But the Arabs made their intentions very clear. They did not want to become citizens of Israel. They wanted to eliminate Israel. That’s why they attacked the new state of Israel immediately after the announcement of the UN partition plan.

        Talking about not answering points. You are the one who is guilty of it. You questioned the legality of the partition. You claim that you only do so because the stacked modern UN also questioned it (link please – by the way). But even if it would be so, I mentioned the partitioning of India at least three times now. India had only a 12% Muslim population, yet it was partitioned into two states, one Muslim one Hindi. According to you and if what you say about the UN is true, why wasn’t the partitioning of India illegal too? Hmmmmmm?

        You are avoiding this point of mine like the plague David. Why?

        Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        “The Arabs who fled Palestine in 1948 were never Israeli citizens. And before 1948 Palestine was not a sovereign country.”

        DAVIDT:”Palestine was a state under mandate which had it’s own citizenship which included all former turkish habitually resident in Palestine. This is the adequate transfer of nationality by a successor state. The nationality law of your racist Apartheid Junta conveniently 1.) stripped the right to citizenship of those it keeps 2.) segregated to maintain the domination of a Jewish oligarchy.”

        But the Arabs made their intentions very clear. They did not want to become citizens of Israel. They wanted to eliminate Israel. That’s why they attacked the new state of Israel immediately after the announcement of the UN partition plan.

        Talking about not answering points. You are the one who is guilty of it. You questioned the legality of the partition. You claim that you only do so because the stacked modern UN also questioned it (link please – by the way). But even if it would be so, I mentioned the partitioning of India at least three times now. India had only a 12% Muslim population, yet it was partitioned into two states, one Muslim one Hindi. According to you and if what you say about the UN is true, why wasn’t the partitioning of India illegal too? Hmmmmmm?

        You are avoiding this point of mine like the plague David. Why??

        Reply to Comment
    20. SAmuel

      SAMUEL:”“Israel has no obligation to make them citizens.”

      DAVIDT:”Israel had from the beginning the human right obligation to make all the residents of the new state its citizens. So did the mandated state of Palestine in the last century and so did Kosovo in this century.”

      Really? And you say Israel expelled them at the point of a gun?

      You don’t even see the contradiction in your silly demand and your unfounded allegations. Anywhere such thing happened, refugees fight tooth and nail to get asylum elsewhere. The last thing that they want is to return to places from they allegedly barely escaped with their lives. At the least, the fact that they clamor to return, shows that most Palestinians were not expelled, contrary to your lies.

      SAMUEL:“Especially since they attacked the Jewish state and the Jews for the last 100 years.”

      DAVIDT:”Another racist accusation you will fail to prove when dealing with individuals. And I have to repeat my argument again since you repeat your incitement over on over again: Even, if they were angels, Israel would keep them segregated/expelled and denationalized to continue as and Apartheid state. And “Jewish state” only proves my point in my above ….”

      LOL, you mean your BS above, don’t you David?

      What exactly is racist about my claim that the Palestinian Arabs have been attacking Jews for the last 100 years?

      Every history book, every newspaper and every newsreel can verify the fact that the Palestinian Arabs have been making war on us for the last 100 years.

      W-A-R, do you hear me David? Here is a very well accepted definition of the word “WAR”:

      “War is an organized and often prolonged conflict that is carried out by states or non-state actors. It is generally characterised by extreme violence, social disruption, and economic destruction.[1][2] War should be understood as an actual, intentional and widespread armed conflict between political communities, and therefore is defined as a form of political violence or intervention.[1][3] The set of techniques used by a group to carry out war is known as warfare. An absence of war is usually called peace.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War

      Reply to Comment
      • Samuel

        SAMUEL:“The only ones keeping them denationalised are the Arab countries …”

        DAVIDT:”Imagine someone would be stupid enough to say that the only ones keeping Germany’s denationalized Jews denationalized was not Germany, but the countries which did not nationalize them. Do you even think, before you write?”

        Actually they DO say exactly that in various western countries. Not about Germany and Jews in particular. Because nowdays we don’t need the Germanies of this world to give us citizenship. Baruch Hashem, we now have Israel. But about refugees in general. Refugees from Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq. I travel a lot to western countries and I read the newspapers. And left leaning newspapers, radio hosts and so called progressives even demonstrate in the streets on behalf of those refugees. I am sure you know that David but you are in denial. What do they want?

        They want western countries to live up to the UN refugee conventions and to take in as many refugees as possible to become citizens. And indeed western countries take in refugees but according to “progressives” the numbers that they take in are never enough. They always want them to take in more and when conservtive leaders clamp down, the “progressives” yell blue murder and accuse their more conservative leaders of inhumanity.

        But funnily enough, those very same so called progressives, don’t expect Arab countries to give citizenship to Palestinians. Seems like a double standard, don’t you think so David?

        Reply to Comment
    21. Samuel

      LOL, LOL…. LOL

      Wow, David, you outdid even yourself by quoting from your following link, Alan Hart. He is a conspiracy theorist extraordinaire…

      http://www.alanhart.net/time-for-a-military-coup-in-israel/

      The same Alan Hart who claims, wait for it … LOL, LOL, LOL ….

      Sorry for laughing David but I can’t help myself …

      He claims that 9/11 was the work of the Israeli Mossad …. LOL, LOL, LOL …. And you quoted him David …. What credibility does that idiot have? What credibiity do you have David?

      One thing is for sure. It confirms you as a Jew hater. A crude Jew hater, Similar to Jew haters of the middle ages. In those days they used to accuse us of causing the black plague and mixing the blood of gentile children into our matzot which we ate during our passover. The 9/11 conspiracy is a modern day version of the same blood libel. God, you guys are pathetic. You should all be on medication. You poor bastards …. LOL, LOL, LOL ..,

      Reply to Comment
    22. David T.

      “My argument was clearly stated before. But you chose to leave it out because you are dishonest.”

      You’re not the first zionist who after I proved him to be dishonest and a liar, because he distored my views and spread lies about me tried to paint me as dishonest or liar as much as he could, because of his acting infantile.

      “Many of the Arabs fled not because they were expelled but because their own leaders scared them out of their wits about what would happen to them if they don’t flee.”

      Nobody denies that “many” of the Arabs fled for different reasons. Amongst them to be massacred by Jews. What is your point?

      “You are lying again David. Benny Morris wrote no such thing.”

      He quoted this in one of his books, but denied to draw any conclusions.

      “David. Once again I caught you with your pants down.”

      Kindergarden babble.

      “In it, he talks about people like you when he says:”

      Wow, that is so clever of you. A hard core zionist racist like Morris accusing others of antisemitism. Wow that is intelligent and highly unusual. You allready used that somewhere else and accuse me of boring repetitions. You are such a hypocrit, it’s mind boggling.

      “No, you repeat your questions because you have comprehension problems.”

      No, I repeat them, cause you fail to answer them and try to shift the discussion away from them. For examples with your infantile “You mean”-ideocies. Here is the point of issue you still fail to adress, cause you can’t:

      A state of the X nation is racist if 1.) the state’s citizens are not X 2.) the state ist not the state of its nation, but of X 3.) X is not the nationality of the of the states citizens. I doesn’t even say something about minories, because my definition also works for Apartheid states.

      Did I write “All states have minorities. So all states are racist.” like you try to suggest that I did? No. NOw I could say that proves that you have comprehension problems, but I don’t think that you are stupid in this way. Your stupidity needs to deliberately distort, what you can’t refute, Mr. strawman argument.

      “I repeat. No state mono ethnic, mono religious or mono cultural. Yet the state has to cater to”

      I assume that you pressed the button accidentally. No, I prefer to play stupid as you do, to accuse you of being pathetic. But who cares what you wrote. It is obvious that you still fail to adress the point of issue and want to shift the discussion away from it.

      “But the Arabs made their intentions very clear. They did not want to become citizens of Israel.”

      That is true. Why should they? Did the Jews wanted to stay citizens of Palestine?

      “They wanted to eliminate Israel. That’s why they attacked the new state of Israel immediately after the announcement of the UN partition plan.”

      They wanted to prevent Zionists from conquering parts if not all of the state of Palestine. And the state of Israel was proclaimed half a year later.

      “You questioned the legality of the partition. You claim that you only do so because the stacked modern UN also questioned it (link please – by the way).”

      If you want to keep to ignore that I had many arguments regarding 181, it’s ok. But please don’t expect me to support your ignorance and even provide you with links to only experience that you will continue your ignorance. I have learned my lesson regarding the game you play. I will give you a link after your summerized by arguments without distorting them.

      “But even if it would be so, I mentioned the partitioning of India at least three times now. India had only a 12% Muslim population, yet it was partitioned into two states, one Muslim one Hindi. According to you and if what you say about the UN is true, why wasn’t the partitioning of India illegal too? Hmmmmmm?

      You are avoiding this point of mine like the plague David. Why??”

      Again, your ignorance. I allready told you that I didn’t know, if it was or not, because I don’t know much about it and if all parties agreed. All I know is that Britain imposed this partition. If not both parties concerned agreed, I consider it to be illegal, because of the same reasons I do consider the partition of Palestine to be illegal.

      Me: “Israel had from the beginning the human right obligation to make all the residents of the new state its citizens. So did the mandated state of Palestine in the last century and so did Kosovo in this century.”
      You: “Really?”

      Yes.

      “At the least, the fact that they clamor to return, shows that most Palestinians were not expelled, contrary to your lies.”

      Again, they are ALL considered to be expelled, because Israel doesn’t let them return. And the fallacy that Palestinians want to return, because they were not expelled is obvioulsy plain stupid. Those who want to return hope that Israel allows them so without getting expelled again or even massacred.

      “LOL, you mean your BS above, don’t you David? What exactly is racist about my claim that the Palestinian Arabs have been attacking Jews for the last 100 years?”

      Wow, another strawman. You argue that the refugees AS SUCH became refugees because they attacked Jews. That is racist and what you can’t prove. You need this racist accusation, because then you can claim that this is the reason why Israel would not allow them to return. But you constantly fail to adress my argument, that Israel would keep them expelled and denationalized EVEN IF THEY WERE ANGELS, because of the need to maintain a Jewish majority in any case to maintain being a democracy. And that this is actually Apartheid.

      “Actually they DO say exactly that in various western countries. … [babbla]”

      Again, you fail to adress the point of issue and try shifting the discussion. The point was “Imagine someone would be stupid enough to say that the only ones keeping Germany’s denationalized Jews denationalized was not Germany, but the countries which did not nationalize them.” Do you really want to argue that Germany was not amongst the countries who kept Jews denationalized after they denationalized them?

      “LOL, LOL…. LOL [babble] conspiracy theorist extraordinaire [babble] Jew hater. A crude Jew hater, Similar to Jew haters of the middle ages [babble] blood libel [babble] You should all be on medication. You poor bastards …. LOL, LOL, LOL .., [babble]”

      Sorr, I didn’t want you to go hysterics and have another of your “Jew hater” seizures. And how dare Alan Hart to be so anti-Semitic to accuse an intelligent service run by Jews to be involved into a terrorist attack? We all know that all Jews are incapable of terrorism or even attacking allies. Not only that all Jews are pure and innocent, but let’s be honest, see how they miserable they are in trying to false flag operations like in the Lavon Affair. All Jews not even able to penetrate any Arab goverment let alone the PLO. So the most mossad agents could do is to put up a camera to film a terrorist attack, dance because it succeded and then get caught. Now compare these inferior Jewish agents to the superior Arab and Muslim superhumans which after a couple of flight lessons are able to pull off the most amazing flight stunts which even advanced pilots think to be nearly immpossible for humans. See those superhumans flying into towers and make not only them, but also neighbouring buildings collapse in a way experts would describe as controlled demolitions. Watch these superhumans flying a plane into the first floor of a state building without even touching the lawn. And also see these superhumans make a whole plane disappear into a small hole with negligible debris. It’s obvious that not one of us the less advanced Jews could ever be behind 911, but only the more advanced Arabs and Muslims superhumans. To accuse them would not be an expression of haters, because it is not against some Jews, right? And what could be Israel’s motive? Not even its prime minister would be stupid enough to even consider that Israel could benefit from an attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq, or would he?

      So back to Alan Hart’s comment that he doubts that Israel’s existence was ever really threatened and General Shlomo Gazit’s answer that the Israelis are victims of their own propaganda (which probably was not even their own, but created by Arab and Muslim superhumans, too). How did Hart manipulate Gazit into admitting this, without even being a superior Arab or Muslim superhuman controlling the mind of an inferior human being and even making someone like Gold Meir believe, that he was a good friend of her? I could claim, that he’s a shapeshifting reptilian, but I’m so terribly afraid that you are going to accuse me of hating reptiles as such, too, because I admire your opinion very much when it comes to accusing others of Jew hatred, cause nobody can do that as less rational as you do. That needs either hard work or “lies” in the family (pardon the pun).

      You’re an antisemitism inventing nutcase, Samuel. Your implicite definition of antisemitism is as irrational as antisemitism itself. That is no surprise, because like slanderers use antisemitism against Jews, you use the accusation of antisemitism against anybody you want to smear. That’s why an intelligent Jew once mocked slanderers like you by saying: “An anti-Semite used to be a person who disliked Jews. Now it is a person who Jews dislike.”. Now try and prove that Hart or I accused Jews as such or all Jews of doing something or being bad. Otherwise your antisemitism spam remains to be just another of your ideocies.

      Reply to Comment
    23. Samuel

      Wow … More repetitive BS from you David.

      I’ll aswer this one for now.

      SAMUEL:”I mentioned the partitioning of India at least three times now. India had only a 12% Muslim population, yet it was partitioned into two states, one Muslim one Hindi. According to you and if what you say about the UN is true, why wasn’t the partitioning of India illegal too? Hmmmmmm?

      You are avoiding this point of mine like the plague David. Why??”

      DAVIDT:”Again, your ignorance.”

      Really? My question about the partition of India was ignorant? How so? I thought it was highly relevant. Go figure …

      DAVIDT:”I allready told you that I didn’t know, if it was or not, because I don’t know much about it”

      Never a truer word was spoken, David. Except you should have said: that you don’tknow much about ANYTHIING,LOL.

      And this is the first time you responded to that question, you LIAR.

      DAVIDT:”and if all parties agreed. All I know is that Britain imposed this partition.”

      I have news for you. All parties did not agree. That’s why millions were murdered or displaced in the partition of India.

      DAVIDT:”If not both parties concerned agreed, I consider it to be illegal,”

      Ok so you consider that Pakistan has no right to exist? LOL.

      DAVIDT:”because of the same reasons I do consider the partition of Palestine to be illegal.”

      Who cares about what YOU consider David? LOL.

      Reply to Comment
    24. Samuel

      DAVIDT”… What is your point?”

      Booooooring. Question previously answered.

      DAVIDT:’A state of the X nation is racist if 1.) …..”

      Booooooring. Question previously answered.

      DAVIDT:”Obvious that you still fail to adress the point of issue and want to shift the discussion away from it.”

      No it isn’t obvious at all, stupid.

      “But the Arabs made their intentions very clear. They did not want to become citizens of Israel.”

      DAVIDT:”That is true. Why should they? Did the Jews wanted to stay citizens of Palestine?”

      OK then. The answer is obvious and the UN got it right. Let us the Jews have OUR states and the Arabs have THEIR state. The 23rd Arab Muslim state. What is your problem with that David?

      SAMUEL:“They wanted to eliminate Israel. That’s why they attacked the new state of Israel immediately after the announcement of the UN partition plan.”

      DAVIDT:”They wanted to prevent Zionists from conquering parts if not all of the state of Palestine. And the state of Israel was proclaimed half a year later.”

      They wanted to prevent the creation of Israel but they failed. Boooo oho.

      SAMUEL:“You questioned the legality of the partition. You claim that you only do so because the stacked modern UN also questioned it (link please – by the way).”

      DAVIDT:”If you want to keep to ignore that I had many arguments regarding 181, it’s ok. But please don’t expect me to support your ignorance and even provide you with links to only experience that you will continue your ignorance.”

      You had no arguments David. None. Zero. Only polemics and lies. Get it?

      DAVIDT:”I have learned my lesson regarding the game you play. I will give you a link after your summerized by arguments without distorting them.”

      You will never learn your lesson David. Stop kidding yourself. You are a repetitive robot, a boring automaton.

      DAVIDT: “Israel had from the beginning the human right obligation to make all the residents of the new state its citizens. So did the mandated state of Palestine in the last century and so did Kosovo in this century.”

      No one has the obligation to accept a hostile warring people who want to terminate one’s state.

      For the umpteeenth time.

      SAMUEL:“At the least, the fact that they clamor to return, shows that most Palestinians were not expelled, contrary to your lies.”

      DAVIDT:”Again, they are ALL considered to be expelled, because Israel doesn’t let them return.”

      Only in your bizarro repetitive world. The answer is still no.

      DAVIDT:”And the fallacy that Palestinians want to return, because they were not expelled is obvioulsy plain stupid. Those who want to return hope that Israel allows them so without getting expelled again or even massacred.”

      I repeat, what you assert is contrary to human nature. A people who according to you were expelled at the point of a gun, and some of whom were murdered, would fight tooth and nail against the idea of returning to such a place because they would fear for their lives.

      So either you are lying about the expulsion or they would not want to return. Which is it?

      SAMUEL:“LOL, you mean your BS above, don’t you David? What exactly is racist about my claim that the Palestinian Arabs have been attacking Jews for the last 100 years?”

      DAVIDT:”Wow, another strawman. You argue that the refugees AS SUCH became refugees because they attacked Jews.

      The Palestinian Arabs, as a people made war on the Jews. I gave you the definition of war above. Look at it again David. The word war is self explanatory to most people except to you it seems David. Oh well, it’s your problem.

      DAVIDT:”That is racist”

      LOL. Racist? How so? A people make war on us. I say so and I am racist? you are hilarious David.

      “Actually they DO say exactly that in various western countries. … [babbla]”

      DAVIDT:”Again, you fail to adress the point of issue and try shifting the discussion. The point was “Imagine someone would be stupid enough to say that the only ones keeping Germany’s denationalized Jews ….”

      Booring, you are repeating yourself. I already answered that above.

      DAVIDT:”So back to Alan Hart’s comment that …”

      No. Alan Hart is a conspiracy theorist. You can bring him up all you like. It will just reflect on you.

      I won’t dignify it with an answer. I will laugh at it though. LOL.

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+972 is an independent, blog-based web magazine. It was launched in August 2010, resulting from a merger of a number of popular English-language blogs dealing with life and politics in Israel and Palestine.

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