Comments on: ‘What if refugees were to fire bomb Israeli houses?’

By: Rowan Berkeley

Rowan Berkeley — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:21:46 +0000

Could you add the ‘remember personal details’ option to the comments system for +972? It would save a lot of time for frequent commentators.

It isn’t really any of my business, but I wonder whether ‘Leehee Rotschild’ is the same person as the ‘Lihi Rothschild’ who was shaliach for Rutgers Hillel last year. It’s such an unusual-sounding name, Hillel prides itself on having shaliachs from all political tendencies in Israel, short of advocating BDS, which would be beyond the pale, and people do change their views.

By: caden

caden — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:32:43 +0000

is it all “ethnic nationalism” that you abhor. Or just Jewish nationalism? And I’m not ducking anything. I’m pointing out that Israel can’t be a destination for half of Africa. Shlomo disagrees with me, but he at least is going to take the weight of that decision. And doesn’t want Israel gone. You on the other hand do want Israel gone. So I have to question your motives on this question.

By: Vicky

Vicky — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:05:24 +0000

Caden, I make the same arguments to the not-in-my-backyard brigade who object to refugees and asylum seekers ‘flooding’ Europe. My comment was about refugee rights generally, government spending priorities, and the dangers of assigning economic value to people in the way that you were doing. The questions I asked are equally applicable to people who make your arguments in London. Essentially you are saying, “I don’t have to address these questions because your interest in refugee rights isn’t real, it’s just hostility to Israel in fancy dress!” It seems that this is your standard way of ducking questions and ideas that you don’t like.
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And yes, I am no fan of the existence of ethnic nationalism…because wherever it rears its ugly head it invariably leads to people of the ‘wrong’ ethnicity getting treated in a poor way. I’m not about to make state or national identity into an idol and uphold it at the expense of some unfortunate guy who is freezing half to death on the street at night.

By: caden

caden — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 10:39:38 +0000

Sh, I didn’t know money fell from the trees in Israel. Didn’t see that on my last visit. But Ok, First thing I think you should do is either move to that neighborhood in solidarity, ( if you don’t already live there ) Or move enough into your town, at your expense. I’d say 51% should be about right.

By: Greg Pollock

Greg Pollock — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 07:28:12 +0000

Well, the piece focuses on the response to violence against an ethnic minority, not whether that minority should be deported. All states are going to regulate immigration. The present issue is whether, while present, they deserve the same protection against violence as citizens. As Haggai reports in another post, the police already have one suspect; it cannot be said, then, that the police have ignored the event. That is, the ISRAELI police are operating effectively; it may well be that one crazed man decided to attack a race he deplores. One can argue he was propelled by ubiquitous race logic, but that is different than saying a direct conspiracy is at work.
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Caden, you seem to think in terms of racial entities. Arab Israeli citizens are a drain. This attacked immigrant minority is a drain. All Palestinians nuture terrorism in their breasts. Russian immigrants are ok, because they (well, many of them) are Jewish. You live in a world of racial warfare. If you read comments by some you deem anti Israeli, you will find that they focus on the processes of violence–their enemy is violence and what sustains, engenders it. Since a logic of race warfare does indeed generate violence, such a focus is against your core world view; but that need not imply at all that the focus is anti-Israeli as such. I direct you to the Israeli Declaration of Independence as evidence.

By: sh

sh — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 06:05:36 +0000

I too am the Israeli taxpayer. What Shlomo Krol said.
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Caden honey, as a fan of the existence of the state of Israel, please stop the condescension. The money that you claim Israel doesn’t have will have to go to a lot of other things in addition to integrating immigrants from places of conflict to whom we pay unofficial pittances to for work that needs to be done and would cost a lot more if done officially, while kindly allowing them to find themselves space in public places to bed down for the nights unprotected from the elements. And yes, unfortunately some of those we want to send back can be compared to those on the Struma and the St Louis.

By: SAMMAR

SAMMAR — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:55:15 +0000

CADEN:

You say that the Israeli Arabs are a drain on the Israeli economy. I was under the impression that they are required to pay taxes just like their Jewish fellow citizens – apparently the only time they are considered “equal” under the law.
From everything that I have heard and read, it also seems that in exchange for their taxes, the Israeli Arab sector receives only a fraction of the services provided to Jewish citizens ( municipal services, allocation for education, etc). How does this make them a drain on the economy? Please explain.
I think it is also a well-known fact that Israeli Arab citizens are not given the same opportunities as Jewish citizens, be it in education, infrastructure or obtaining well-paying jobs. I wonder if stopping the discrimination against Israel”s Arab citizens, would not lead to enable them to become a much more productive part of Israeli society.

By: caden

caden — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 03:07:06 +0000

Vicky, sweetheart, obviously nuance is lost on you. And just has obviously your not exactly a fan of the existence of the state of Israel judging by your earlier posts. Unlike the oil rich Arab countries Israel doesn’t have unlimited resources. And these are economic refugees. They’re going to cost a lot of money that Israel doesn’t have. The point I was just trying to make is that yes the Haredi and Arab sectors are also an economic drain. Israel doesn’t need a third. But that’s not in your interest. And yes I’m fully aware that being born in NJ instead of Africa is a stroke of luck, for me or anybody else. But don’t come to me with your anti-Israel animus dressed up has progressive bullshit and compare these people to people on the Struma and St. Louis.

By: Vicky

Vicky — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 00:07:30 +0000

Caden, during the Second World War many countries imposed quotas on the number of Jewish refugees that they were willing to accept, using identical arguments to the ones you’re advancing here. Would you have supported that decision too, or is this a policy that you only apply to certain refugees?
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Thinking of people in terms of economic pluses and minuses is a cherished practice of many less than savoury regimes. Tomorrow you could become permanently and severely disabled, and then you wouldn’t be an ‘economic plus’ any more either. You might have been born into a comfortable existence, but nobody’s life is guaranteed to remain that way. If you ever become an ‘economic minus’, would you be content for people to think of you in callous numerical terms, saying things such as, “I’m not unsympathetic, but we can only look after so many of them”? Also, have you considered that not all contributions to society are economic? As Shlomo identifies, the refugees have an important cultural contribution that they can make.
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It is breathtakingly selfish for people who lead privileged comfortable lives to put their privilege and comfort ahead of other people’s basic needs and rights (such as the right not to get tortured or killed). This is what we are doing when we start evaluating people in terms of their economic value. That’s a messed up set of priorities, which is sadly reflected on the national level as well. If a country can afford to expend billions on state of the art weaponry, you would think it could afford to look after refugee welfare.
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No one’s saying that absorbing refugees should be the end of the matter. It is important to work to resolve refugee crises, not to let the wounds keep haemorrhaging. But until the crisis is ended, people have a right to safe asylum.

By: caden

caden — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 21:52:45 +0000

I respect your sincerity although I’d speculate that your not exactly typical in how you view this. And I’m fully aware that this is not the only drain, the haredi and Israeli Arabs being a couple of sectors that aren’t economic pluses. But Shlomo, let me ask you this. How much is enough, give me a number.