Haredi in Bet Shemesh. "You are sick. I'm healthy" (photo: youtube)
And why is that? Well, on Friday evening, Naama told her story on the most watched news show in the country. Interviewed by Channel 2’s Shai Gal, Naama told how she was afraid to go to school, just a few hundred meters from her house in Bet Shemesh, because Haredim cursed and spit on her for being dressed “immodestly.”
The report, translated in full below, has sent Israeli public discourse on relations between secular and religious into a frenzy.
Since the report, the Israeli Prime Minister has spoken about it, the Haredi Beit Shemesh Mayor has condemned it, Haredim in Beit Shemesh attacked a Channel 2 news team who came to town again on Sunday, and rioted when municipal workers took down signs calling for segregation between men and women. They later put the signs back up. Today, the city announced plans to put up 400 security cameras.
But guess who hasn’t said anything? That’s right: the rabbis. Apparently, they don’t care. And why should they? It’s not like they recognize the state or anything. And guess what else: They don’t have to. Because the invalid who spoke from inside his car at the end of the item is actually right. Out of all the ignorance he spewed, he managed to say one correct thing at the end:
“All of Israel will be Haredi, and there’s nothing you can do about it.”
He’s right. The numbers speak for themselves.
Actually, it makes the whole two-state, one-state discussion seem like a waste of time. What does it matter when in a few decades between the river and the sea, secular people of any nationality will be a small minority.
You’ll just have to chose your theocracy.
December 27, 2011
4:16 pm
Rather ironic that the author of this post is from Bat Yam, a violent Jewish settlement that ethnically cleansed the Palestinians in the area in 1948. But of course his liberal sensibilities shouldn’t be shaken by the violent history that allows him to occupy this land. http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story202.html
December 27, 2011
5:51 pm
Bosko – there are Jews in the US. There are hasidim in the US. Lots and lots of them in some NYC neighborhoods. Guess what? This kind of thing isn’t going on.
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The fault is definitely in Israel because decades of Israeli governments have pandered to this sector and subsidized it at the expense of others that don’t constitute such a large voting bloc. The haredim in Israel go to these extremes because they are allowed to get away with it there.
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The issue isn’t “exclusion” or “modesty.” It’s territory. When people find their children being spit on and no one in authority to stop it, they move out and the perpertrators move in. Which is the whole idea. It’s ethnic cleansing. Only used against Jews.
December 27, 2011
6:08 pm
Oh give it a break Aristeides. Why don’t you just admit it? In your eyes, Israel is the devil incarnate. It can do no right. It only does wrongs just by existing. Why don’t you just come clean and tell us what you want done to Israel and all Israelis? Be honest now, don’t be shy and don’t leave anything out.
December 27, 2011
6:34 pm
“There are Jews in the US. There are hasidim in the US. Lots and lots of them in some NYC neighborhoods. Guess what? This kind of thing isn’t going on.”
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There are plenty of testimonies out there from ex-members of American charedi communities who were demeaned or punished as children because they didn’t dress or talk or act right.
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This sort of abusive behaviour isn’t restricted to religious communities either. Sometimes I feel as though the charedim are being unfairly singled out. Child abuse attracts more attention when it’s perpetrated by them, but it occurs in all areas of society. There is no difference between a secular guy who spits at his daughter to teach her that she’s worthless and a guy who spits at a child because she isn’t dressed modestly enough.
December 27, 2011
7:46 pm
I am so sickened by this. They bring shame to all Jews for their horrible treatment of women and anyone who is not “like them”. I have been planning for aliyah but now I am staying away. You will not get anymore Jews to come to Israel and work to support you with our taxes while you sit lazy and spend all your idle time abusing women and children. I know you demand women and little girls be hidden from your sight because you are so weak as to think nasty thoughts about them. Even after you have pushed them to the other side of the street and made them walk around in tents with just a small hole to look out you are weak, You have no ability to behave G-dly with control of yourself. You are doing with Torah forbids by copying the life of Muslims in how you treat women. When you have made all of Israel Ultra-Orthodox as you say, who will support you? who will fight for you when your enemies come for you? NO ONE! You will have nothing.
December 27, 2011
8:16 pm
Vicky – In private, in all societies, horrible abuses are taking place. It’s the public manifestation that is enabled by the unique conditions of Israel. It’s a form of mob action.
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I’m reminded of the tone of the race-lynchings in the US, in the proud and gleeful hate expressed by the mob as the hanging bodies are set on fire, as they posed for the camera in that light.
December 27, 2011
11:52 pm
Aristeides:
“I’m reminded of the tone of the race-lynchings in the US”
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Yes, and it is your voice that is a reminder of it. Listen to yourself: Most Israelis are scandalized by this shameful incident which was committed by this crazed bigot. Yet you are baying for the blood of the very Israelis who are upset by it as any decent human being should be …
December 28, 2011
1:46 am
Hey Andrew lets talk about facts:
You say that Israel is occupied from the Palestinians because they were there first,
But guess what the Jewish people was in Israel first. Read the bible.
So the Palestinians were the ones occupying the land.
BTW, America was occupied from the native Americans ,so give it back to the native Americans…
The only difference in Israel is that Israel didn’t commit ethnic cleansing so there are many Palestinians around to make noise.
Something that can’t be said about the native Americans in America or the Aborigines in Australia…
December 28, 2011
3:04 am
972–just realized that you all did the subtitles. you guys rock.
December 28, 2011
6:11 am
YUMMIYUMMI IN MY TUMMY, who did you say were there first? Abraham found Philistines, Canaanites, Ammorites, and others there. He lost the first battles to try to oust them. He bought the land where he and his wife are buried from a Hittite. Read your Bible! The ‘children of Israel’ did not occupy that land until the locals were defeated after the Exodus from Egypt. BTW American aborigines (called Indians by mistake) are doing well in Florida and several other places in America. They are all American citizens with all the rights that come with that designation. Not so Palestinians in Israel.
December 28, 2011
8:54 am
I suspect there are many, many Jews who feel like Leah. The exposure of Beit Shemesh is doing more to delegitimatize Israel than a decade of BDS.
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What’s going on there is religious cleansing, using exactly the same tactics as the settlers are using to conduct ethnic cleansing in the WB. Constant harrassment, targeting the vulnerable. Throwing stones at children on the way to school. And for exactly the same end: seizure of territory, which is what this fight in Beit Shemesh is really about.
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Unlike Ami’s declaration, Jews in Beit Shemesh are leaving the homes in Israel where they were born and were raising their children. Perhaps as they flee the religious terror they might give a moment of reflective solidarity to the Palestinians, who have been subject to the same kind of persecution for decades, with the same goal: to drive them from their homes.
December 28, 2011
8:56 am
what declaration?
December 28, 2011
9:18 am
[...] complete video report, broadcast last Friday by Israel’s Channel 2, has been posted on the Israeli Web site +972 with English [...]
December 28, 2011
9:45 am
I was astonished by the news. I agree with Lea. I can’t understand the fixation with women Mulims and Ultra Orthodoxe have. Why???!!!.Women give the LIFE. And just for that we must be in a high altar, not behind a shador or walk in the other side like a dog. Worst than an animal. We provoke??!!!A girl of 7y. old provokes?!! ¡ No me jodas!. Perverts!!!
December 28, 2011
9:51 am
Ami – iirc, in another thread you declared that you would not leave the place where you had been born and were raising your family.
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I have now seen statements from residents of Beit Shemesh that they were forced out of the city where they had been born and were raising their families.
December 28, 2011
10:06 am
bit of paraphrasing there, but i’ll let it slide. seems like ages ago.
December 28, 2011
10:40 am
These ultra-orthodox Haredim-in their treatment of women: what is the difference between them and the Saudi Arabs? Their behaviour reminds me of reporets of women being harassed in Afghanistan under the Taliban. If they behave in the same way-what is the difference between them-nonwithstanding the distinctive clothing they wear & hairsplitting differences in religious doctrine: do the behaviours make the man? If they could, would they stone a young girl to death, if she were accoused of so-called ‘sexual indiscretion’? Anyway, what is it their business? Is there a difference between the State and religious beliefs? What heretical rabbi said: render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and render to G*d the things that are G*d’s?
December 28, 2011
10:46 am
just had an interesting discussion with an Israeli friend (a dear friend, quite leftist) who said that although of course this case disturbs her tremendously, as compared to the women being forced to ride on the back of the bus, it is not telling about Israeli society as a whole. to her, this case is about the extreme of the extreme, and the few hundred people, such as this poor girl, who are affected by this very extreme religious sector are also religious people who live near them. In other words, the vast majority of Israel is both horrified by this case (as, of course, is this girl’s community) and also not directly affected by it (or others like it). She said that really, this case is localized and a job for the police, and the story is the police lacking control.
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By contrast, she said, the fact that women are increasingly asked to move to the back of public, Egged busses is more telling about a broader, Israeli problem.
December 28, 2011
12:58 pm
This is a good example of the problems inherent in a theocracy. When the state is ruled by a particular religious sect tyranny is the necessary result.
Tyranny is not compatible with democracy. Unfortunately this is the problem with all the countries in the Middle East and Israel is no exception. The only answer is to get the mullahs and rabbis out of government but don’t hold your breath. Why anyone raised in a democratic tradition would want to live in ANY country in the Middle East, Israel included, theocracies all, ruled by a religious fanatics escapes me.
December 28, 2011
3:29 pm
@”this doesn’t happen in the US” – there are conflicts like this all the time, particularly when Chasid social functions intersect with state political functions – google kiryas joel for a taste.
December 28, 2011
3:31 pm
To FRANK,
1)You said it, Philistines, Canaanites, Ammorites
Non of them are arabs who came later.
AFTER the Hebrews.
Lets all read the Bible.
2) Israeli Arabs have all the rights in the world.
3) It’s easy to say Native Americans have good life, (So do Israeli Arabs BTW), But the sat truth is that they were slaughtered and now they are so few that that the don’t have a say and they have to agree with European descendants occupying their land.
Its not because they are happy, It’s because there are so few of them.
History is written by the winners and the strong ones are the “good” ones.
Israel Is a small country so its easy to pick on it that’s all.
December 28, 2011
4:23 pm
How sad that many jews contribute to peace and prosperity around the globe, yet so many still act with ugliness and hatred and ignorance.
One day, perhaps, god will see fit to let Irans missiles land in the desecrated land.
December 28, 2011
6:26 pm
The differences and similarities between Beit Shemesh and Kiryas Joel are very instructive. But the main difference is this – the founders of KJ went forth and selected and bought the land where they meant to build their segregated shtetl. In Israel, the government assigns territory and housing units to various groups. The same government they spit on when it comes time to enforce the law.
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KJ may have outsized clout, but I doubt anyone there would get away with spitting on a state cop.
December 28, 2011
6:53 pm
Problem? Relegion!!!
December 29, 2011
12:52 am
About religion: in Italy we have kind of a similar problem with the Catholic Church, in terms of “not being obliged to observe the State law”, (e.g.: if they paid the taxes on their properties – which now they don’t – we’d have the money to avoid the financial bill we’re about to face now) BUT the Catholic Church is definitely an economic power.
So, again my questions to whom may know the answer: why are these ultra-orthodox communities this strong and respected?
December 29, 2011
12:58 am
Thomas – Wow you are crazy,
You think its okay to use nuclear missiles and kill tens of thousands of Innocent people because some of them are fanatics?
Every country has its fanatics.
People hate Israel because they think it doesn’t do enough to avoid Innocent Palestinians casualties and yet they are willing to commit mass murders on Israelis.
The world is a funny place.
December 29, 2011
1:07 am
To Giovanna:
They are very organized and vote to orthodox parties to the parliament.
And because of the way that the Israeli parliament is divided to left wing and right wing parties , each side that wins needs the orthodox parties support in order to have majority.
That way they are almost always in power.
They are the only ones (Except Israeli Arabs) that don’t have to serve in the Army and they usually get funded by the country for “studying the bible”.
The seculars like me see them as a really big problem to the future of our country.
December 29, 2011
1:20 am
“And because of the way that the Israeli parliament is divided to left wing and right wing parties , each side that wins needs the orthodox parties support in order to have majority.” [End of Pyro-Gx]
The only religious party that makes or breaks any coalition is Shas. UTJ (United Torah Judaism) gets how many seats? 4 or 5. Habayit HaYehudi (the national religious party) gets maybe 4 seats and they are just as up in arms over what is happening in Beit Shemesh and the fact that so many people are getting exemptions from the army as the secular are. Now, as far as Shas is concerned, a good percentage of their voters are not Orthodox but mesorti (traditional) are even borderline secular Mizrachi Jews who would rather vote for a “Sephardic” party. While Shas has a reputation for being “extremist” and I’m sure there are no fans of them on this site, their Rabbis are actually more lenient in their ruling of many issues compared to their Ashkenazi counterparts and I reckon that the majority of Shas supporters are also quite appalled by what is happening in Beit Shemesh.
December 29, 2011
1:23 am
This whole story is so sad. I moved to Israel last summer, and maybe I had a few naive ideas about what the culture was like here, but this is ridiculous. I really appreciated the comment by the Israeli man who confronted the extremist by saying that “I was here in the 50′s…I build this city…you have destroyed the peace in the city.” I think the haredi extremests would do well to remember, if it weren’t for these hard working Israelis there would be no city to fight over. Mutal respect between Jews is not only essential, it is Torah. I do not identify myself as “haredi,” “torani,” dati-leumi” or anything else. I am simply a Jew. The divisions we have all made around ourselves is the problem. These extremists call their choices and way of life the only true Torah lifestyle. Really? So, did Moshe Rabbeinu institute a “womens only” lane for crossing the sea? Have you forgotten the “woman of noble character” as written about in Mishlei about whom we sing each Shabbat? She clothes her family in crimson, herself in purple linen. She is industrious, with a thriving business. Certainly she is seen by other men in the city, and yet she brings her husband honor. These extremists would probably prefer a little rewrite here? Something like, “she clothes herself in thick black shawls, even in 100 degree heat. She hides in the shadows, avoiding others at all costs. She never laughs or smiles and tries very hard not to draw any attention to herself. The only time she leaves the house is for the purpose of serving her husband…..” I’m sure my tirade could go on, but I’ll spare you. Torah teaches us all we need to know for right living, and appropriate interaction between all people. This craziness in Bet Shemesh is a result of leaving that wisdom for nonsense. How can the same man who claims he has respect for women spit on them and yell at them? What would that man’s mother think? What does his wife think? You know what I think? I think he’d probably have a lot less time to terrorize the neighborhood if he got himself a JOB. God help us.
December 29, 2011
4:09 am
This is what happens when you let any extremist religious community get out of hand. I’m an American and I believe in freedom of religion just as much as I believe in freedom from religion. What has happened in Israel (religious fundamentalists have been given free range to discriminate/harass/assault whomever they disagree with) would not happen in any other democracy because Israel is like no other democracy.
There can be no real democracy in Israel as long as it insists on referring to itself as a “Jewish” state. I know of no other country that is a REAL democracy (this does not include countries that claim to be democracies but are obviously not) that also has an official state sanctioned religious identity. Israel is a failed experiment, born out of injustice, forged through injustice, maintained by injustice. The thought of such a country is just as offensive as an “Islamic republic”. Unfortunately for a myriad of reasons Israel isn’t seen for what it truly is today but rather what it once had a potential to be. Melancholy doesn’t begin to describe how many holocaust survivors feel about what Israel has turned into.
December 29, 2011
5:35 am
To Mitch Lake:
Israel is a Jewish state , at a state for the Jewish people. like Germany is for the Germans and France for the french.
There’s no difference.
The only difference is that the name of the people and the name of religion is the same.
There are Israeli Muslims and Israeli Christians. there is full freedom of practicing religion.
After saying that I agree that we should call it the Hebrew state and not Jewish.
December 29, 2011
4:46 pm
unfortunately this video is terrible anti-orthodox propaganda. also unfortunate is the fact that the only people being portrayed in this video as orthodox are the ones doing the spitting. there is so much more depth involved in this situation, so much more depth involved in Judaism for the scope of one terribly one sided 13min. video. the whole situation is just another example of how out of touch the world is with itself. how disconnected we all are. how bad our communication is. and the pain of it all is so great that all we can do is hate each other for it.
so sad, for so many reasons not covered by this video.
December 29, 2011
5:01 pm
Jewish Taliban.
December 29, 2011
5:18 pm
What on earth is wrong with those idiots?
Oh yeah. Religion.
December 29, 2011
6:44 pm
Just a quick response to aristeides:
You are incorrect. Re these sorts of incidents do not go on in orthodox neighborhoods in the US. I don’t know where you live, but in NYC orthodox men have been forcing women to ride at the back of PUBLICLY funded buses, have harassed and abused women who complained or refused to obey, have tried to prevent women bike riders from using PUBLIC streets because they didn’t like their attire, and while I haven’t heard of anyone being spit on yet, if it hasn’t happened yet it’s probably only a matter of time. The arrogant misogyny evidenced by EVERY corner of orthodoxy in every religion is contemptible and would be reason enough for any fair and justice minded individual to dismiss organized religion completely.
December 29, 2011
8:59 pm
Newposter – there can be no doubt that religious cults in the US attempt, as far as they can, to impose these kinds of strictures. The difference is the level of support from the authorities. In NYC, once the segregated busses were brought to official attention, they were shut down.
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In Israel, these cults receive the official support of the government, which allocates resources to them. In the US, the cults have to fund themselves, and when they receive government support, it’s as the result of bribery or fraud, which tends to be prosecuted.
In Israel, the cults demand and receive this support by right of entitlement.
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What brought the current quarrel to a head? The hasidim coveted the school building that they hadn’t built or paid for, but it was assigned to another group, instead. In the US, if you want a piece of territory, you have to pay for it. Only in Israel is it handed to you for free.
December 30, 2011
6:44 am
Shame, shame, shame. Where is the honoring of this child’s soul? One who chooses his rabbi’s opinion over the soul of a child, is no servant of God. What do I care whether the woman-oppressing fanatics are Muslims or Jews? They all scare me to death. I would not choose to live under their oppression and I would fight with all the tools I could muster for the freedom of the women suffering under their thumbs. Never would I swear allegiance to such a dictatorial theocracy. If I am not a good enough Jew for these zealots, then so be it. I renounce their faith.
December 30, 2011
10:04 am
these FEW charedim should be locked up and the key should be thrown away. They need psychiatric help. Hitler and today’s neo-nazis gain in stature when pictures of these insane idiots are seen througthout the world. RABBI DR. BERNHARD ROSENBERG
December 30, 2011
1:53 pm
“First they came for the bus-riders, and I didn’t say anything because I didn’t ride the bus.
“Then they told the women to walk on the other side of the street, and I didn’t say anything.
“Then they spat on little girls and called them vile names…”
January 1, 2012
1:03 am
Religious fundamentalism whether Jewish, Islamic or Christian – it’s all the same. If Israel were ever to make peace with the Palestinians no doubt civil war would break out. Ben Gurion must be spinning in his grave to see the monster he helped to create. So sad – Israel had so much potential . . .
January 1, 2012
4:36 am
these charedim should be locked up and the key should be thrown away. They need psychiatric help. Hitler and today’s neo-nazis gain in stature when pictures of these insane idiots are seen througthout the world. RABBI DR. BERNHARD ROSENBERG
January 1, 2012
9:38 am
The hasidim are in general for peace and prosperity. I am sadened that this incident shows a picture of a torn Israel. History speaks for itself when religion fights religion – maybe for this new year everyone should focus why there is a state of Israel. Since 1948 the State of Israel has endured many hardships and provided homes and a final sense of security for Jews from all around the world. People settled in Israel to avoid religious prejudice and procecution – what happened?
January 4, 2012
2:24 pm
OMG…it’s not just the Muslims anymore. There goes any support for Israel from me.
January 8, 2012
4:32 pm
It is so sad to see jews fight with each other when they have so many enemies from the outside.
January 14, 2012
11:39 pm
Hm…
This is strange…
Being german (born 1967) and still wondering how and why my grandparents did ,what they’ve done between 1936 and 1945.
I see comparable attitudes between old fashioned Nazis in brown dresses and this strange looking guys in “ultra-orthodox-clothing” calling themselves Chassidim or true/right-believers.
The Nazionalsozialisten in Germany also thought they could speak for a whole Tribe/Nation and have offered a weird and false imagination of “the german way of life”.
I am sure that Israel has enough intelligence and strength to keep them controlled.
January 21, 2012
7:45 am
Maybe there’s something in the air in the Middle East that makes men want use religion to control women completely?
January 30, 2012
3:02 pm
Having spent this afternoon in Beit Shemesh talking to members of the Haredi community as well as the National Religious community, I think that ARISTIEDES is absolutely correct. The issue is much less about modest dress or even mistreatment of women as much as it is TERRITORY. Beit Shemesh has grown dramatically over the past decades, and the boundaries between the groups keep shifting. The crass behavior among a subset of haredim is just another way of establishing and reestablishing new boundaries between the groups.
January 31, 2012
4:06 am
No, the Jews were not in Palestine “first.” The Jewish “God” “promised” to help the Jews kick out the folks who were there already. In fact, the Jewish “God” “told” his “chosen people” to go into the “promised land” and commit mass genocide there, with “His” support and approval. And that’s what happened. Deut. 7.
February 6, 2012
9:22 am
You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, with all of your soul and all of your strengh AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. People that spit on and verbally abuse their neighbors are breaking the commandments of Yah!
February 7, 2012
10:58 am
I watched the videoclip and have read some of the comments. Seems these ultra-orthodox are just like the Islamists in UK. They want everything on their terms, and no discussion. All argument is classed as racist (in this case anti-Semitic). Impossible to discuss anything with them. I fear for the democracy of Israel, and even their theocracy would not be G-d fearing. Only women would fear – just like in Islamic culture.