Comments on: WATCH: Settlers shoot Palestinian in head while soldiers stand by http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Mon, 20 May 2013 16:17:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Leen http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/comment-page-2/#comment-62692 Leen Wed, 23 May 2012 16:22:45 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=46354#comment-62692 XYZ - there's nothing wrong about saying that arabs were merchants historically or master merchants infact. But again you are making assumptions on my political ideologies SOLELY because I am arab. That is racist, the association of a political ideology to an ethnicity/religion is racist. Again, I don't understand what led you to believe that I support Red/Green alliance, or the left, or the progrressive, or that I am anti-capitalist, or capitalist, or socialist, or support Tariq Ramadan. If you made these assumptions based on the fact that I am arab or Muslim, then, you should stop now. I never once implied what are my political leanings are. Secondly, of course it does not matter. If settlers engage in violence, harrassment, intimidation, their presence is illegal, then it doesn't matter if they are the nicest people in the world. Put it this way, if your next door neighbour who was always nice and lovely to you and helpful, found out he's a murderer or actively engages in violent confrontation or even stole the house/land he is living on, your viewpoint of him will definitely change. XYZ – there’s nothing wrong about saying that arabs were merchants historically or master merchants infact. But again you are making assumptions on my political ideologies SOLELY because I am arab. That is racist, the association of a political ideology to an ethnicity/religion is racist.
Again, I don’t understand what led you to believe that I support Red/Green alliance, or the left, or the progrressive, or that I am anti-capitalist, or capitalist, or socialist, or support Tariq Ramadan. If you made these assumptions based on the fact that I am arab or Muslim, then, you should stop now. I never once implied what are my political leanings are.

Secondly, of course it does not matter. If settlers engage in violence, harrassment, intimidation, their presence is illegal, then it doesn’t matter if they are the nicest people in the world. Put it this way, if your next door neighbour who was always nice and lovely to you and helpful, found out he’s a murderer or actively engages in violent confrontation or even stole the house/land he is living on, your viewpoint of him will definitely change.

]]> By: Devin http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/comment-page-2/#comment-62679 Devin Wed, 23 May 2012 15:02:18 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=46354#comment-62679 Any reason you removed my comment? Any reason you removed my comment?

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/comment-page-2/#comment-62635 Greg Pollock Wed, 23 May 2012 08:41:43 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=46354#comment-62635 SH, . The point is that IDF Command and Control undoubtedly was warned of this once they instituted policy encouraging private arms. Failure to train soldiers, and palce more than three on ground when private arms are sanctioned about, is a simple failure of command. You can be a IDF supporter and accept that logic. . Anyway--ANYWAY--you look at this land, there are years of defeat ahead. I am interested in formulating as clear thought as I can. I do not gain personal legitimacy by fighting the good fight on this site. I'm trying to think years ahead. If that makes me a fool--nothing new there. SH,
.
The point is that IDF Command and Control undoubtedly was warned of this once they instituted policy encouraging private arms. Failure to train soldiers, and palce more than three on ground when private arms are sanctioned about, is a simple failure of command. You can be a IDF supporter and accept that logic.
.
Anyway–ANYWAY–you look at this land, there are years of defeat ahead. I am interested in formulating as clear thought as I can. I do not gain personal legitimacy by fighting the good fight on this site. I’m trying to think years ahead. If that makes me a fool–nothing new there.

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/comment-page-2/#comment-62633 sh Wed, 23 May 2012 08:25:39 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=46354#comment-62633 @Greg Pollock - "settlers have been sanctioned to carry arms with private, personal command over those arms; " . You say it as though they didn't do that already long, long before. That privilege is not unique to settlers either. @Greg Pollock – “settlers have been sanctioned to carry arms with private, personal command over those arms; ”
.
You say it as though they didn’t do that already long, long before. That privilege is not unique to settlers either.

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/comment-page-2/#comment-62632 sh Wed, 23 May 2012 08:19:28 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=46354#comment-62632 "It should be noted that incidents like this on in the Shomron always occur on Shabbat because the Palestinians know that the Jews don’t carry video cameras on Shabbat." . But the Jews do carry stones. At least in Israel they do. Throwing stones has become a "traditional" (in the sense that the Jerusalem Day's flag shenanigans are said to be "traditional") Shabat sport around spots like Jerusalem's Bar Ilan junction, especially on the long Shabatot of spring and summer. So the possibility that Yitzhar settlers initiated the stone-throwing can't be discounted. . In the unlikely event Yitzhar does not run the fixed video cameras probably posted around it on Shabat, the forces of order might be persuaded to supply the West Bank with the overhead zeppelins they use to photograph demonstrations within the green line. Or drones - that's if Yitzhar settlers have no objections to the evidence they are likely to confirm. . XYZ, K9 and like-minded company, if it hasn't been clear to you until now, it is not the settlers who are the central problem, it is the army that protects them exclusively, under the orders of governments that planted them there in the first place. “It should be noted that incidents like this on in the Shomron always occur on Shabbat because the Palestinians know that the Jews don’t carry video cameras on Shabbat.”
.
But the Jews do carry stones. At least in Israel they do. Throwing stones has become a “traditional” (in the sense that the Jerusalem Day’s flag shenanigans are said to be “traditional”) Shabat sport around spots like Jerusalem’s Bar Ilan junction, especially on the long Shabatot of spring and summer. So the possibility that Yitzhar settlers initiated the stone-throwing can’t be discounted.
.
In the unlikely event Yitzhar does not run the fixed video cameras probably posted around it on Shabat, the forces of order might be persuaded to supply the West Bank with the overhead zeppelins they use to photograph demonstrations within the green line. Or drones – that’s if Yitzhar settlers have no objections to the evidence they are likely to confirm.
.
XYZ, K9 and like-minded company, if it hasn’t been clear to you until now, it is not the settlers who are the central problem, it is the army that protects them exclusively, under the orders of governments that planted them there in the first place.

]]> By: Rowan Berkeley http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/comment-page-2/#comment-62630 Rowan Berkeley Wed, 23 May 2012 08:14:16 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=46354#comment-62630 Robert Wright commented in the Atlantic Magazine: "Note how, at the 40-second mark in this video, one of the armed settlers seems to wave the soldier out of his line of fire so he can commence shooting, and the soldier seems to comply. Whether or not this reading of the clip is correct, it is an apt symbol for what is too often the relationship between settlers and soldiers." http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/05/why-israeli-settlers-shot-an-unarmed-palestinian/257502/ . B'tzelem said: "One of the masked settlers was armed with a Tavor rifle, which is only used by infantry soldiers, raising the suspicion that he is a soldier on leave." Robert Wright commented in the Atlantic Magazine: “Note how, at the 40-second mark in this video, one of the armed settlers seems to wave the soldier out of his line of fire so he can commence shooting, and the soldier seems to comply. Whether or not this reading of the clip is correct, it is an apt symbol for what is too often the relationship between settlers and soldiers.”
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/05/why-israeli-settlers-shot-an-unarmed-palestinian/257502/
.
B’tzelem said: “One of the masked settlers was armed with a Tavor rifle, which is only used by infantry soldiers, raising the suspicion that he is a soldier on leave.”

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/comment-page-2/#comment-62628 Greg Pollock Wed, 23 May 2012 07:47:44 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=46354#comment-62628 Max's question, "why didn't the soldiers intervene?" is on point. It may well be they did try to intervene. . One soldier is clearly at furthest point. A settler moves a little closer to point, knells, and shoots (I think). The soldiers appear to be offering support for the settlers intent, at least indirectly. BUT it is as equally likely, perhaps most likely, that the soldier on point has no idea that a settler just a bit behind point has taken a stance to shoot. Once the shooting starts, the soldiers retreat, which may well be to induce the settlers to retreat. . I see three uncertain soldiers without training as what to do; I suspect as well that they are regularly told, and define themsleves to be, settler protectors. When the settler fires, the soldiers' prior definitions fail. . What is clear is that the soldiers make no attempt to have the armed men stand down; throughout the seconds they rather meld into one rather uncontrolled line of defense/offense (pick what you like). . This event appears to be a consequence of the IDF's prior decision to encourage armed settlers in self defense. Clearly these very young soldiers were not trained to force a stand down; and there is no evidence in the videos of immediate, rushing danger to the settlers. . IDF command policy is at failure here. This should be no surprise to command: almost always its soldiers are placed in confrontation with Palestinians (I am neutral here on why this is so); settlers have been sanctioned to carry arms with private, personal command over those arms; the soldiers, only three, neither have training nor are sufficient to push back the settler autonomy IDF command has encouraged. . If you allow arms to private hands results such as this are inevitiable. IDF command has failed here; policy has failed here. And I think it most probable that command was warned such events would precipitate. . Then why did IDF command allow the arming to proceed? Why are the young, only three, soldiers clueless as to how to force their armed side to stand down? These are the real questions; the answers will not be hard to find. Max’s question, “why didn’t the soldiers intervene?” is on point. It may well be they did try to intervene.
.
One soldier is clearly at furthest point. A settler moves a little closer to point, knells, and shoots (I think). The soldiers appear to be offering support for the settlers intent, at least indirectly. BUT it is as equally likely, perhaps most likely, that the soldier on point has no idea that a settler just a bit behind point has taken a stance to shoot. Once the shooting starts, the soldiers retreat, which may well be to induce the settlers to retreat.
.
I see three uncertain soldiers without training as what to do; I suspect as well that they are regularly told, and define themsleves to be, settler protectors. When the settler fires, the soldiers’ prior definitions fail.
.
What is clear is that the soldiers make no attempt to have the armed men stand down; throughout the seconds they rather meld into one rather uncontrolled line of defense/offense (pick what you like).
.
This event appears to be a consequence of the IDF’s prior decision to encourage armed settlers in self defense. Clearly these very young soldiers were not trained to force a stand down; and there is no evidence in the videos of immediate, rushing danger to the settlers.
.
IDF command policy is at failure here. This should be no surprise to command: almost always its soldiers are placed in confrontation with Palestinians (I am neutral here on why this is so); settlers have been sanctioned to carry arms with private, personal command over those arms; the soldiers, only three, neither have training nor are sufficient to push back the settler autonomy IDF command has encouraged.
.
If you allow arms to private hands results such as this are inevitiable. IDF command has failed here; policy has failed here. And I think it most probable that command was warned such events would precipitate.
.
Then why did IDF command allow the arming to proceed? Why are the young, only three, soldiers clueless as to how to force their armed side to stand down? These are the real questions; the answers will not be hard to find.

]]> By: Elisabeth http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/comment-page-2/#comment-62503 Elisabeth Tue, 22 May 2012 14:51:37 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=46354#comment-62503 Well, thank you Max. I am glad that part of the misunderstandings between us are out of the way. And I also understand that people from all over the world constantly commenting on your own country can be very, very annoying! Well, thank you Max. I am glad that part of the misunderstandings between us are out of the way. And I also understand that people from all over the world constantly commenting on your own country can be very, very annoying!

]]> By: Devin http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/comment-page-2/#comment-62501 Devin Tue, 22 May 2012 14:34:20 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=46354#comment-62501 Just remember South African racist government. I see the same future for settlers and racist government of Israel. The image of Jwish people destroyed by these anti human acts. These are not Jwish, these are murderer and they are full of hate. I hope Jwish people seprate themselves from these animals. Just remember South African racist government. I see the same future for settlers and racist government of Israel. The image of Jwish people destroyed by these anti human acts. These are not Jwish, these are murderer and they are full of hate. I hope Jwish people seprate themselves from these animals.

]]> By: max http://972mag.com/watch-settlers-shoot-palestinian-in-head-as-soldiers-stand-by/46354/comment-page-2/#comment-62475 max Tue, 22 May 2012 12:40:48 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=46354#comment-62475 XYZ, given his known ideological background, Haggai was even-handed in the article. The interesting - but futile - question is what's the balance between creating awareness and providing a platform for hate speech, which can't be expected to lead to a solution XYZ, given his known ideological background, Haggai was even-handed in the article.
The interesting – but futile – question is what’s the balance between creating awareness and providing a platform for hate speech, which can’t be expected to lead to a solution

]]>