Comments on: Vibrant democracy faces prospect of war http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:41:15 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: daniel gavron http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/comment-page-1/#comment-43642 daniel gavron Tue, 14 Feb 2012 15:27:00 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35063#comment-43642 Larry, please call me at 02-5342633 Larry, please call me at 02-5342633

]]> By: Passerby http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/comment-page-1/#comment-43365 Passerby Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:27:34 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35063#comment-43365 Carl, you'll miss me when I'm gone. Carl, you’ll miss me when I’m gone.

]]> By: Steve http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/comment-page-1/#comment-43361 Steve Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:47:26 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35063#comment-43361 How many free countries exist in the Middle East? How many free countries exist in the Middle East?

]]> By: John Yorke http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/comment-page-1/#comment-43311 John Yorke Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:49:51 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35063#comment-43311 '..so, yes, what is really going on here and what do we really recommend.' Thank you for your comment, Ayla. As to what's really going on here, my guess would be that it's a kind of reverse domino effect. Iran wants nuclear weapons because Israel has them and Israel has them because, should her situation deteriorate to an intolerable level, these represent the ultimate fall-back position in terms of her survival or, if not that, then her vengeance. If it ever looks like Israel is about to go under, then it's damn certain a lot of the neighbourhood is going to go with her. (Why are nations always referred to in the feminine - or is this just an Anglo-Saxon preference?) And what do we really recommend? I strongly recommend a change of scene, a rewrite of the rest of this tragedy in which a happy (or happier) ending is made mandatory before any final curtain descends. The problem with this Middle Eastern portrayal is that there is no depth to it. It's as if it's all just a one act play, very two-dimensional and with players and audience having long ago guessed how it ends. Badly, of course; very badly. There needs to be some dynamic added to what has always been a very static performance; a constant jockeying for position with no concessions made because to do so might appear weak, foolish or even terminal. In a way, it's become almost too predictable - and that is never a good sign. What we have here is a huge pressure vessel with a release valve set at far too high a level for safety. The vessel and the pressure are things we can't do a lot to change but the setting of the valve might still be within our power to alter. That may be something to keep in mind for the next occasion when that needle starts climbing once again into the red. Http://yorketowers.blogspot.com ‘..so, yes, what is really going on here and what do we really recommend.’

Thank you for your comment, Ayla.

As to what’s really going on here, my guess would be that it’s a kind of reverse domino effect.

Iran wants nuclear weapons because Israel has them and Israel has them because, should her situation deteriorate to an intolerable level, these represent the ultimate fall-back position in terms of her survival or, if not that, then her vengeance. If it ever looks like Israel is about to go under, then it’s damn certain a lot of the neighbourhood is going to go with her. (Why are nations always referred to in the feminine – or is this just an Anglo-Saxon preference?)

And what do we really recommend? I strongly recommend a change of scene, a rewrite of the rest of this tragedy in which a happy (or happier) ending is made mandatory before any final curtain descends.
The problem with this Middle Eastern portrayal is that there is no depth to it. It’s as if it’s all just a one act play, very two-dimensional and with players and audience having long ago guessed how it ends. Badly, of course; very badly.

There needs to be some dynamic added to what has always been a very static performance; a constant jockeying for position with no concessions made because to do so might appear weak, foolish or even terminal. In a way, it’s become almost too predictable – and that is never a good sign.

What we have here is a huge pressure vessel with a release valve set at far too high a level for safety. The vessel and the pressure are things we can’t do a lot to change but the setting of the valve might still be within our power to alter. That may be something to keep in mind for the next occasion when that needle starts climbing once again into the red.

Http://yorketowers.blogspot.com

]]> By: AYLA http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/comment-page-1/#comment-43260 AYLA Sat, 11 Feb 2012 09:04:59 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35063#comment-43260 972--This link isn't displaying on the facebook page, or at least not on mine, so probably many readers haven't seen it. * @Zayzafouna--Congratulations! You've joined the ranks of people who post here anonymously, reveal nothing about their own life choices, and criticize others' choices while making gross assumptions about why they make them and how they live their lives! I won't dignify most of it, but I'll say this: I can take criticism about my being an immigrant in Israel from Palestinian refugees who don't have the privilege I have, because they are speaking to a deep injustice, at their expense. I obviously don't feel that the answer is that I have no right to be here, because I'm here, but that is a conversation I am very willing to have, and in fact, I feel I must have it, at least with myself, and must make other choices with a true understanding of the injustice in which I am now a player. However, from people like you, who I'm sure are leading entirely uncomplicated, pure lives, and doing much more to end the occupation than @Larry Derfner, or someone like myself who is attempting to write a moving novel for a wide audience, I can say only this: you'd prefer that the only people with Israeli citizenship are those who support the occupation? * SH and John Yorke--thanks for the good insight. And JY, yes, for me, the minute one says "nuclear", everything becomes very abstract and out of my control, so, yes, what is really going on here and what do we really recommend. I've assumed, honestly, that one reason I don't know is that I'm not reading anything with "Iran" in the headline. Unless it's written by Larry :). 972–This link isn’t displaying on the facebook page, or at least not on mine, so probably many readers haven’t seen it.
*
@Zayzafouna–Congratulations! You’ve joined the ranks of people who post here anonymously, reveal nothing about their own life choices, and criticize others’ choices while making gross assumptions about why they make them and how they live their lives! I won’t dignify most of it, but I’ll say this: I can take criticism about my being an immigrant in Israel from Palestinian refugees who don’t have the privilege I have, because they are speaking to a deep injustice, at their expense. I obviously don’t feel that the answer is that I have no right to be here, because I’m here, but that is a conversation I am very willing to have, and in fact, I feel I must have it, at least with myself, and must make other choices with a true understanding of the injustice in which I am now a player. However, from people like you, who I’m sure are leading entirely uncomplicated, pure lives, and doing much more to end the occupation than @Larry Derfner, or someone like myself who is attempting to write a moving novel for a wide audience, I can say only this: you’d prefer that the only people with Israeli citizenship are those who support the occupation?
*
SH and John Yorke–thanks for the good insight. And JY, yes, for me, the minute one says “nuclear”, everything becomes very abstract and out of my control, so, yes, what is really going on here and what do we really recommend. I’ve assumed, honestly, that one reason I don’t know is that I’m not reading anything with “Iran” in the headline. Unless it’s written by Larry :) .

]]> By: Aaron http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/comment-page-1/#comment-43248 Aaron Sat, 11 Feb 2012 06:02:32 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35063#comment-43248 Larry, you say that the experts disagree among themselves, therefore we can't just leave it to the experts. That's a non sequitur. The "experts" - I wouldn't use that word, but OK - disagree on every significant problem, but eventually one or more expert decides. If your point is, "Which experts do you trust, given that they all disagree?," then the answer is obvious: those experts who are authorized to decide. In this case, the prime minister and the security minister. If the prime minister happened to be, say, Meir Dagan, then my argument would be unchanged. I would trust him, rather than you or myself or the woman from Petah Tikvah, to make the decision. § Your democratic approach is the same. There's disagreement within the demos, but it decides. Your faith is apparently not only in democracy but also in the liberal principle of discussion, i.e., that five million accountants from Petah Tikvah who occasionally watch the news will come to a better decision than a few government ministers who have access to all the classified information. If I'm right that this in an unstated premise, then it needs justification, because it's not obvious at all. § By the way, you're also apparently assuming that Netanyahu and Barak favor an attack on Iran. That's not at all clear, because everything they say publicly is addressed not only to Israel but also to Iran, Europe, and America. It should never be taken at face value. Larry, you say that the experts disagree among themselves, therefore we can’t just leave it to the experts. That’s a non sequitur. The “experts” – I wouldn’t use that word, but OK – disagree on every significant problem, but eventually one or more expert decides. If your point is, “Which experts do you trust, given that they all disagree?,” then the answer is obvious: those experts who are authorized to decide. In this case, the prime minister and the security minister. If the prime minister happened to be, say, Meir Dagan, then my argument would be unchanged. I would trust him, rather than you or myself or the woman from Petah Tikvah, to make the decision.
§
Your democratic approach is the same. There’s disagreement within the demos, but it decides. Your faith is apparently not only in democracy but also in the liberal principle of discussion, i.e., that five million accountants from Petah Tikvah who occasionally watch the news will come to a better decision than a few government ministers who have access to all the classified information. If I’m right that this in an unstated premise, then it needs justification, because it’s not obvious at all.
§
By the way, you’re also apparently assuming that Netanyahu and Barak favor an attack on Iran. That’s not at all clear, because everything they say publicly is addressed not only to Israel but also to Iran, Europe, and America. It should never be taken at face value.

]]> By: Carl http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/comment-page-1/#comment-43228 Carl Fri, 10 Feb 2012 23:08:48 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35063#comment-43228 'Passerby'? . Where's nominative determinism when you need it ... .. . ‘Passerby’?
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Where’s nominative determinism when you need it … .. .

]]> By: Passerby http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/comment-page-1/#comment-43221 Passerby Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:33:38 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35063#comment-43221 I realize that it's commonplace in these discussions to keep referring to Israel in absolutist terms as stolen Palestinian land, but just because something is repeated endlessly, it doesn't become true or more true. --- I take issue with the claim that the land was stolen and I take issue with the claim that it was Palestinian land. Some of the land was Palestinian, just as some of the land was in Jewish possession. Certainly the vast majority of the land was not in Palestinian-Arab possession. ---- And the land was not stolen, unless we're referring to what Transjordan got from the British. It was won in a war intended to take away the land possessed legally by the Jews, after the UN made an extremely good-faith effort (accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs) to divide the land. That's without even getting into details such as the fact that Jordan resides on 77% of Mandate Palestine and no Jews live there while millions of Palestinians do. ---- And while Larry's joke about the US sitting on Mexican or native-American land is based on a certain set of ideas, one key difference between the USA and Israel is that there was a Jewish population in Judea and Israel for over a millenium before there was a Palestinian one (unless someone can show me a link between Canaanites, Philistines or Jebusites and Palestinians, and please don't quote the Torah or the ridiculous Shlomo Sand in the process). This is not a small difference. It's not as if Americans already had population bases in San Francisco, Philadelphia and DC or that Americans had been saying B'Shana Hab'a'a Be'Disneyland Ha'Bnuyah or Im yishcacech Manhattan, tishachach yemini for a couple of thousand years. ----- Now you may return to your original programming. What was that again? Oh yeah, the impossible-to-know question of what to do about the Iranians. I'll say this for Israel, it's impressive to see that there is a serious debate at the highest levels about this situation. It's not just Dagan against Netanyahu and Barak, there are many distinguished retired generals and even current military and secret service leaders and even cabinet members who openly say they oppose an attack, just as there are many who support one. Nobody is being led by the nose. In fact, if the government does attack Iran, the decision will have been after this vigorous and open debate. In an impossibly complex situation, this process and its openness should give Israelis some pride. I realize that it’s commonplace in these discussions to keep referring to Israel in absolutist terms as stolen Palestinian land, but just because something is repeated endlessly, it doesn’t become true or more true.
—
I take issue with the claim that the land was stolen and I take issue with the claim that it was Palestinian land. Some of the land was Palestinian, just as some of the land was in Jewish possession. Certainly the vast majority of the land was not in Palestinian-Arab possession.
—-
And the land was not stolen, unless we’re referring to what Transjordan got from the British. It was won in a war intended to take away the land possessed legally by the Jews, after the UN made an extremely good-faith effort (accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs) to divide the land. That’s without even getting into details such as the fact that Jordan resides on 77% of Mandate Palestine and no Jews live there while millions of Palestinians do.
—-
And while Larry’s joke about the US sitting on Mexican or native-American land is based on a certain set of ideas, one key difference between the USA and Israel is that there was a Jewish population in Judea and Israel for over a millenium before there was a Palestinian one (unless someone can show me a link between Canaanites, Philistines or Jebusites and Palestinians, and please don’t quote the Torah or the ridiculous Shlomo Sand in the process). This is not a small difference. It’s not as if Americans already had population bases in San Francisco, Philadelphia and DC or that Americans had been saying B’Shana Hab’a'a Be’Disneyland Ha’Bnuyah or Im yishcacech Manhattan, tishachach yemini for a couple of thousand years.

—–

Now you may return to your original programming. What was that again? Oh yeah, the impossible-to-know question of what to do about the Iranians. I’ll say this for Israel, it’s impressive to see that there is a serious debate at the highest levels about this situation. It’s not just Dagan against Netanyahu and Barak, there are many distinguished retired generals and even current military and secret service leaders and even cabinet members who openly say they oppose an attack, just as there are many who support one. Nobody is being led by the nose. In fact, if the government does attack Iran, the decision will have been after this vigorous and open debate. In an impossibly complex situation, this process and its openness should give Israelis some pride.

]]> By: Carl http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/comment-page-1/#comment-43210 Carl Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:24:49 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35063#comment-43210 Chemi Shalev's got an interesting article on Ha'aretz at the minute about the role of the Holocaust on Jewish opinion about attacking Iran. . I can't fault the emotion, but I'm not sure about the logic stemming from it. . http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/the-holocaust-is-a-good-reason-not-a-bad-excuse-for-attacking-iran-1.412194 Chemi Shalev’s got an interesting article on Ha’aretz at the minute about the role of the Holocaust on Jewish opinion about attacking Iran.
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I can’t fault the emotion, but I’m not sure about the logic stemming from it.
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http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/the-holocaust-is-a-good-reason-not-a-bad-excuse-for-attacking-iran-1.412194

]]> By: Philos http://972mag.com/vibrant-democracy-faces-prospect-of-war/35063/comment-page-1/#comment-43180 Philos Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:26:56 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35063#comment-43180 So the question we need to ask ourselves are the following: how many of the most senior officers in the IDF are stupid and diligent? . ;) So the question we need to ask ourselves are the following: how many of the most senior officers in the IDF are stupid and diligent?
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;)

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