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	<title>Comments on: Turkey&#8217;s response to UN flotilla report: not just about Israel</title>
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	<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/</link>
	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
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		<title>By: Bosko</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/comment-page-1/#comment-22750</link>
		<dc:creator>Bosko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 06:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=21930#comment-22750</guid>
		<description>@Watcher465
Stop kidding yourself. You are smelling your own stench.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Watcher465<br />
Stop kidding yourself. You are smelling your own stench.</p>
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		<title>By: Watcher465</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/comment-page-1/#comment-22747</link>
		<dc:creator>Watcher465</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 05:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dahlia better get her doctorate in comparative politics before writing this Israel leaning crap. And all the Hasbarats such as Ben Israel are on board before the stench of Zionist garbage has wafted over and polluted the internet.Keep on stirring that foul food Ben, you might eat it but I won&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dahlia better get her doctorate in comparative politics before writing this Israel leaning crap. And all the Hasbarats such as Ben Israel are on board before the stench of Zionist garbage has wafted over and polluted the internet.Keep on stirring that foul food Ben, you might eat it but I won&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Piotr Berman</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/comment-page-1/#comment-22648</link>
		<dc:creator>Piotr Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2011 03:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=21930#comment-22648</guid>
		<description>Iran has decent relationship with Turkey and very close relationship with Armenia, and in particular, Iran recognizes Armenian Holocaust, at least in the words of Ahmedinejad to Armenian parliament.

Israel likewise could recognized Armenian Holocaust and be treated to a whining diplomatic note from Turkey and that would be it.  The only reason that Israel did not do it that I can see is a degree of antipathy toward Armenians in some sectors of Israel.

It is also interesting to note that alleged &quot;alternative allies&quot;, Greece and Cyprus, promised to support Palestinian bid for UN membership.  Israeli government reminds me the following German joke: a driver on an autobahn listens to his car radio, and hears a warning: &quot;there is car on autobahn so-and-so that drives in the wrong direction&quot; and thinks &quot;it is not just one car, all cars that I see go in the wrong direction!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iran has decent relationship with Turkey and very close relationship with Armenia, and in particular, Iran recognizes Armenian Holocaust, at least in the words of Ahmedinejad to Armenian parliament.</p>
<p>Israel likewise could recognized Armenian Holocaust and be treated to a whining diplomatic note from Turkey and that would be it.  The only reason that Israel did not do it that I can see is a degree of antipathy toward Armenians in some sectors of Israel.</p>
<p>It is also interesting to note that alleged &#8220;alternative allies&#8221;, Greece and Cyprus, promised to support Palestinian bid for UN membership.  Israeli government reminds me the following German joke: a driver on an autobahn listens to his car radio, and hears a warning: &#8220;there is car on autobahn so-and-so that drives in the wrong direction&#8221; and thinks &#8220;it is not just one car, all cars that I see go in the wrong direction!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: aristeides</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/comment-page-1/#comment-22636</link>
		<dc:creator>aristeides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2011 23:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=21930#comment-22636</guid>
		<description>Netanyahu&#039;s problem is entirely of his own creation.  If he hadn&#039;t declared right away that he&#039;d never apologize, he wouldn&#039;t look like he was backing down by doing so.


If he&#039;d apologized first thing, as any decent country would have, the crisis would have been averted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Netanyahu&#8217;s problem is entirely of his own creation.  If he hadn&#8217;t declared right away that he&#8217;d never apologize, he wouldn&#8217;t look like he was backing down by doing so.</p>
<p>If he&#8217;d apologized first thing, as any decent country would have, the crisis would have been averted.</p>
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		<title>By: RichardL</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/comment-page-1/#comment-22627</link>
		<dc:creator>RichardL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=21930#comment-22627</guid>
		<description>it&#039;s worth bearing in mind that the UN Panel&#039;s decision on the legality of the blockade is only an opinion, and from a bunch of amateurs at that. There was no expertise on that panel in international criminal or humanitarian law. The decision is also non-binding (as it should be). 
Of course the UNHRC FFM decision was also merely an opinion, but the Mission did have two very experienced lawyers in international law on board and its secretariat also contained experts on maritime and humanitarian law. Altogether a much more professional outfit, as close reading of the two reports will show.
But the real answer is to take the matter to the ICJ and get the matter settled once and for all. So all credit to Turkey for proposing it. If Palestine had been a state it could have been done long ago. 
Netanyahu has a real problem here that is not going to go away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it&#8217;s worth bearing in mind that the UN Panel&#8217;s decision on the legality of the blockade is only an opinion, and from a bunch of amateurs at that. There was no expertise on that panel in international criminal or humanitarian law. The decision is also non-binding (as it should be).<br />
Of course the UNHRC FFM decision was also merely an opinion, but the Mission did have two very experienced lawyers in international law on board and its secretariat also contained experts on maritime and humanitarian law. Altogether a much more professional outfit, as close reading of the two reports will show.<br />
But the real answer is to take the matter to the ICJ and get the matter settled once and for all. So all credit to Turkey for proposing it. If Palestine had been a state it could have been done long ago.<br />
Netanyahu has a real problem here that is not going to go away.</p>
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		<title>By: ARTH</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/comment-page-1/#comment-22610</link>
		<dc:creator>ARTH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=21930#comment-22610</guid>
		<description>It doesn&#039;t matter what the motives of Turkey are, it is only Israel which actually loses in the larger picture.. and much of this is because of Israel&#039;s own policies.  Israel can not &quot;get tough&quot;  with Turkey.  It is Turkey which has the real options.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t matter what the motives of Turkey are, it is only Israel which actually loses in the larger picture.. and much of this is because of Israel&#8217;s own policies.  Israel can not &#8220;get tough&#8221;  with Turkey.  It is Turkey which has the real options.</p>
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		<title>By: Kernod</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/comment-page-1/#comment-22584</link>
		<dc:creator>Kernod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=21930#comment-22584</guid>
		<description>Israel is like a schoolyard bully — all haughty, full of pride, arrogance, and feelings of invincibility, until he comes up against someone who decides to stand up to him and his invincibility is shown as an empty shell.

Israel&#039;s doctrine of disproportionate retaliatory force, which is a cornerstone of its expansionism-instead-of-peace strategy, is beginning to show its limitations. As long as the Palestinians and Lebanese bore the brunt of this doctrine, it was arguably effective. However, once it was implemented against Turks, its limitations — so obvious in hindsight - are clear. Coupled with what I would characterize as the best Israeli foreign minister the Palestinians have ever had (jeez - you couldn&#039;t make Lieberman up in a million years), with his bull-in-a-China-shop ideology, the writing has been on the wall for some time now.

Israel relies on military power as its primary tactic in any confrontation, even when other options clearly exist. The fundamental lesson history teaches us is that power is, by its very nature, temporary, and that using force as your primary modus operandi, instead of as an extension of politics and diplomacy, is a loosing strategy. 

Israel has conducted itself with total disregard for the opinion of anyone else, including its allies, for a very long time. It has allowed itself to be blinded by its self-perceived omnipotence (not unlike Mubarak). It has allowed its global position to erode, ignoring pleas for moderation from all of its friends and allies, while ignoring the warnings of its enemies. Together with the change in the world&#039;s geopolitical balance of forces, in which Israel&#039;s backers — the US and Western Europe - are loosing clout at the same time they are loosing patience with Israel&#039;s antics, Israel is becoming much more of a liability than an asset.

While there is not doubt in my mind that the Turkish regime is no lover of humanity, as its policies vis-a-vis the Kurds show, it is using its support of the Palestinians for both internal and external gain. In addition, it is a member of in NATO, is a friend to Iran and Syria, and is a rising power in Europe. 

If Turkey follows up its warnings with action on the legal and military fronts to curtail Israel&#039;s politicidal intents vs the Palestinians, whatever its motivation, Israel would be ill advised to react with its standard policy of using disproportionate force.

Israel has had its warning. This could be serious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Israel is like a schoolyard bully — all haughty, full of pride, arrogance, and feelings of invincibility, until he comes up against someone who decides to stand up to him and his invincibility is shown as an empty shell.</p>
<p>Israel&#8217;s doctrine of disproportionate retaliatory force, which is a cornerstone of its expansionism-instead-of-peace strategy, is beginning to show its limitations. As long as the Palestinians and Lebanese bore the brunt of this doctrine, it was arguably effective. However, once it was implemented against Turks, its limitations — so obvious in hindsight &#8211; are clear. Coupled with what I would characterize as the best Israeli foreign minister the Palestinians have ever had (jeez &#8211; you couldn&#8217;t make Lieberman up in a million years), with his bull-in-a-China-shop ideology, the writing has been on the wall for some time now.</p>
<p>Israel relies on military power as its primary tactic in any confrontation, even when other options clearly exist. The fundamental lesson history teaches us is that power is, by its very nature, temporary, and that using force as your primary modus operandi, instead of as an extension of politics and diplomacy, is a loosing strategy. </p>
<p>Israel has conducted itself with total disregard for the opinion of anyone else, including its allies, for a very long time. It has allowed itself to be blinded by its self-perceived omnipotence (not unlike Mubarak). It has allowed its global position to erode, ignoring pleas for moderation from all of its friends and allies, while ignoring the warnings of its enemies. Together with the change in the world&#8217;s geopolitical balance of forces, in which Israel&#8217;s backers — the US and Western Europe &#8211; are loosing clout at the same time they are loosing patience with Israel&#8217;s antics, Israel is becoming much more of a liability than an asset.</p>
<p>While there is not doubt in my mind that the Turkish regime is no lover of humanity, as its policies vis-a-vis the Kurds show, it is using its support of the Palestinians for both internal and external gain. In addition, it is a member of in NATO, is a friend to Iran and Syria, and is a rising power in Europe. </p>
<p>If Turkey follows up its warnings with action on the legal and military fronts to curtail Israel&#8217;s politicidal intents vs the Palestinians, whatever its motivation, Israel would be ill advised to react with its standard policy of using disproportionate force.</p>
<p>Israel has had its warning. This could be serious.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/comment-page-1/#comment-22583</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=21930#comment-22583</guid>
		<description>Ben Israel - I think it&#039;s a bit tedious to compare Nasser and Erdogan. Nasser was a populist with an eye towards pan-Arab nationalism.  Erdogan is just trying to strategically re-position itself as more of a moral compass for the Middle East, which they&#039;re more or less well positioned to do (their not actually being a part of the Middle East not withstanding) given their history of elections (Let&#039;s set aside the military coups for now... =D  ) and liberalism (relative to the Middle East).  Erdogan&#039;s not trying to unite the whole region under a single flag nor is he agitating for war.  And at any rate, loud and harsh responses to Israel are not the single route to influence, just expected as part of the job.   

And as far as what Turkey buys from Israel, you&#039;re right to assume that it&#039;s high-tech.  I know at least that Turkey has a healthy compliment of Israeli UAVs.

The importance of pan-Islamism is a relatively recent development historically - say, the last 15 years or so - and if you remove that context being allays with a nation of Muslims doesn&#039;t seem entirely wacky.  Remember that Turkey is neither an Islamist or an Arab state, and given that both nations are fighting minorities seeking independence, until recently their similarities outstripped their differences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben Israel &#8211; I think it&#8217;s a bit tedious to compare Nasser and Erdogan. Nasser was a populist with an eye towards pan-Arab nationalism.  Erdogan is just trying to strategically re-position itself as more of a moral compass for the Middle East, which they&#8217;re more or less well positioned to do (their not actually being a part of the Middle East not withstanding) given their history of elections (Let&#8217;s set aside the military coups for now&#8230; =D  ) and liberalism (relative to the Middle East).  Erdogan&#8217;s not trying to unite the whole region under a single flag nor is he agitating for war.  And at any rate, loud and harsh responses to Israel are not the single route to influence, just expected as part of the job.   </p>
<p>And as far as what Turkey buys from Israel, you&#8217;re right to assume that it&#8217;s high-tech.  I know at least that Turkey has a healthy compliment of Israeli UAVs.</p>
<p>The importance of pan-Islamism is a relatively recent development historically &#8211; say, the last 15 years or so &#8211; and if you remove that context being allays with a nation of Muslims doesn&#8217;t seem entirely wacky.  Remember that Turkey is neither an Islamist or an Arab state, and given that both nations are fighting minorities seeking independence, until recently their similarities outstripped their differences.</p>
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		<title>By: Borg</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/comment-page-1/#comment-22573</link>
		<dc:creator>Borg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2011 05:18:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=21930#comment-22573</guid>
		<description>Turkey and Israels relationship even before the rupture was stragen in that it required Israel not to mention the Armenian genocide, and to collaborate with Turkey going after the Kurds. Now, Israel doesnt have to participate in this dubious behavior.Thurky just got rebuffed in Libya, will have to challenge Iran for supremacy of the Muslim world, and has been shown to be a paper tiger in Syria, at the same time as being revealed as a less than reliable US ally. Turkey may want to pick on Israel, but will have its hands full with more substantive issues very soon. If the economy goes south, Erdogan will have some real problems</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Turkey and Israels relationship even before the rupture was stragen in that it required Israel not to mention the Armenian genocide, and to collaborate with Turkey going after the Kurds. Now, Israel doesnt have to participate in this dubious behavior.Thurky just got rebuffed in Libya, will have to challenge Iran for supremacy of the Muslim world, and has been shown to be a paper tiger in Syria, at the same time as being revealed as a less than reliable US ally. Turkey may want to pick on Israel, but will have its hands full with more substantive issues very soon. If the economy goes south, Erdogan will have some real problems</p>
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		<title>By: Borg</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/turkeys-tough-response-to-un-flotilla-report-not-just-about-israel/21930/comment-page-1/#comment-22572</link>
		<dc:creator>Borg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2011 05:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=21930#comment-22572</guid>
		<description>Turkey and Israels relationship even before th erupture was stragen in that it required Israel not to mention the Armenian genocide, and to collaborate with Turkey going after the Kurds. Now, Israel doesnt have to participate in this dubious behavior.Thurky just got rebuffed in Libya, will have to challenge Iran for supremacy of the Muslim world, and has been shown to be a paper tiger in Syria, at the same time as being revealed as a less than reliable US ally. Turkey may want to pick on Israel, but will have its hands full with more substantive issues very soon. If the economy goes south, Erdogan will have some real problems</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Turkey and Israels relationship even before th erupture was stragen in that it required Israel not to mention the Armenian genocide, and to collaborate with Turkey going after the Kurds. Now, Israel doesnt have to participate in this dubious behavior.Thurky just got rebuffed in Libya, will have to challenge Iran for supremacy of the Muslim world, and has been shown to be a paper tiger in Syria, at the same time as being revealed as a less than reliable US ally. Turkey may want to pick on Israel, but will have its hands full with more substantive issues very soon. If the economy goes south, Erdogan will have some real problems</p>
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