31 comments for ”Tony Kushner and the changing discourse on Israel in the US“

    
  1. “the ethnic cleansing charge, like the apartheid charge, will become more and more mainstream in the coming months”

    The ethnic cleansing charge has been around for decades, and so has the historical debate. Pretending that it hasn’t for the sake of looking forward to a brighter day when everyone sees “the truth” about 1948 sidesteps the reality of the discourse –> both “ethnic cleansing” and “apartheid” have encountered a critical mass of opposition from public/intellectual figures. It is not possible change the status quo w/o the kind of moral consensus that will never exist vis a vis these issues.

  2. 
  3. It is honorable to criticize Israeli policy in the occupied territories, but it is dishonorable to be a board member of the Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP). That organization purports to support a “just peace” for both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian struggle, but in fact presents a barrage of shrill, one-sided condemnation of anything and everything about the State of Israel. For my documentation of JVP’s distorted perspective, see “No Peace from the Jewish Voice for Peace” at http://www.tennisplayerintelaviv.blogspot.com
    I conclude that JVP’s “unrelenting hostility [toward Israel] distressingly echoes the daily anti-zionist polemic seeking to deligitimize Israel.” Mr. Kushner might deserve an honorary degree for artistic accomplishment, but he also deserves dishonorable mention for his allegiance to JVP.

  4. 
  5. Laugh of the day: “the weakening of the Zionist narrative in this country, a weakening that will continue as more Israelis and Palestinians struggle with confronting their past and planning alternative models for living together in the future.”
    Tell me when the Palestinians arrive at the party.

  6. 
  7. Self-determination for the Palestinians and ending the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land are only starting points toward peace. Discriminatory laws within Israel must be viewed as a human-rights issue, not just within a religious perspective. After all, most of the world is not Jewish! hardly! Israel must become more democratic, even if it means losing it’s ‘Jewish-only’ character.

  8. 
  9. Richard,
    Ignore the process and the propaganda war…
    .
    After 1950 there were 700k civilian persons outside Israel that were in 1945 inside Israel. The group is denied ROR by Israel. That by definition is ethnic cleansing.
    .
    In the West Bank there are two sets of laws, one for Palestinians and one for Israeli. That is by definition apartheid.
    .
    If you do not like the terms ethnic cleansing and apartheid you could also call it violating Universal Human Rights.
    .
    It is really quite clear, not much to debate about.

  10. 
  11. “That by definition is ethnic cleansing”

    According to who, you? Ilan “the Iraqi Jews chose to leave” Pappe? My point wasn’t about the substance of the argument, it was about the fact that the argument is not new –> people who lose the argument always have the incentive to say “once the truth has come out, things will change”, but “the truth” has already come out, and its murky. Murkiness means no moral consensus means nothing will change. Scholars have been debating 1948 for decades. Its not a new debate.

  12. 
  13. Norman, your case would be stronger if you did not point to your own blog which contains just opinions and no exact citations.
    .
    Lets point to the real source and let people make up their own mind:
    http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

  14. 
  15. The so-called “Jewish Voice For Peace” is a radical anti-Israel organization. Its “Rabbinical Council” includes Brant Rosen of Evanston, Illinois who posted this piece in which he approvingly quotes a terrorist from the Al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade who is complaining that there aren’t enough “effect armed resistance” actions against Israel.
    Brant does express a preference for not including mass suicide bombings but he does agree with the sentiment. Read here:

    http://rabbibrant.com/2010/11/15/reading-material-to-clear-your-sinuses/

  16. 
  17. This is yet another chapter in a being written by the right wing, pro-occupation overseas Jewish community. Their effort are getting increasingly desperate as they feel themselves backed into a corner esp. in the coming September resolution. In Israel the problem is that these same political contemporaries are in power. They are making laws that would legally ban dissent and allow ethnic discrimination. In NYC it was only the Board of Trustees of CUNY In Israel it is the Legislature and Government…

  18. 
  19. CUNY’s action (about to be overturned, praise be) is an example of BDS used against intellectuals, something that CUNY’s anti-Kushner trustees seemed find reprehensible. Oh well, we’re well used to such BDS here in America, where academia has been subject to well-monied attacks on pro-Palestinian professors for a long time. (And performers, such as Vanessa Redgrave hired and then fired by the Boston Symphony in PLO-tinged circumstances).

    The difference is: their BDS is speech suppressive, whereas our BDS is pro-human-rights.

  20. 
  21. Ben, Thank you for the link to this nice blog. The “offending” Al-Jazeera article is by the way a good read.
    .
    I do not think you are perfectly honest towards Brant Rosen.
    .
    In answer to a question of Y. Ben-David he writes:
    .
    “… Of course I don’t condone suicide bombings against civilians. To say I feel this article provides a powerful view of life in one West Bank city doesn’t not mean I agree with every single comment made by every interviewee…”
    .
    Your remark about the quote “productive armed resistance” or “effective armed resistance” is simply not true.

  22. 
  23. While I enjoyed this piece, I don’t think Jeffrey Goldberg is a particularly sound barometer for measuring how “liberal Zionists” discuss Israel in the U.S.

  24. 
  25. What I find most reprehensible is Weisenfeld’s characterization of Palestinians as “subhuman.”

  26. 
  27. Directrob-
    I don’t know what you are talking about. He is lamenting the fact that the political divisions among the Palestinians are preventing “productive armed resistance”.

    The Al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade is a terrorist organization that carried out the majority of the suicide bombings in Israel. That Brant would approving quote him, even if he has reservations with SOME of his positions is appalling and explains why Israelis have rejected the extreme Left as represented by organizations such as the JVP.

  28. 
  29. Ben Israel, do you deny that an occupied population has the right of armed resistance against the occupying power?

  30. 
  31. aristeides, how disingenuous! Do you claim that a just cause is a good justification for terrorism, targeting of civilians?

  32. 
  33. @ben,
    Please give me the full quote.
    .
    I checked the article, I can not find the quote as something Brant Rosen used. You probable confuse “shirin” in his discussion with “richard kahn” with Rabbi Brant Rosen.

  34. 
  35. I claim, Max, according to international law, that an occupied population has the right of armed resistance against the occupying power. As for example when the Jewish Yishuv claimed this right when engaged in armed resistance against the British.

    Those are the words I used, not others that you like to insert into people’s mouths.

  36. 
  37. Directrob-
    Look for this section in Brant’s column:
    ——————————————-

    Palestinian novelist Robin Yassin-Kassab documents the reality on the ground in the northern West Bank city of Nablus. Powerful, profound, and highly recommended.
    ——————————————-

    This includes a hypertext link to another article, which as Brant says is “highly recommended” and “powerful and profound”.
    This is where the quote from Jamal Hwayil lamenting the lack of armed resistance.
    Brant, in his response to the comment by Y. Ben-David mentions that on the issue of suicide bombings, he disagrees with Hwayil, otherwise he is fine and good and we should listen to him and respect him. As I said, the Al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade is a TERRORIST organization, under the direct aegis of FATAH which is the party that signed the Oslo Agreements and took orders from Arafat at the time.
    Brant’s words speak for themselves. He agrees with Aristeides and Hwayil, except that maybe suicide bombings are not such a good idea. This, from the ‘Rabbinical council head’ of the JVP.

  38. 
  39. Dont besmirch Mr Kushner by calling him a zionist. Mr Kushner would be insulted, and has stated in the past that the creation of the zionist entity was a terrible mistake

  40. 
  41. @ben,
    Ok, a new issue, I still think you are pushing the truth …
    .
    What we have here is Brant Rosen recommending an article by Rabin Yassin-Kassab. In this article among others Jamal Hwayil is quoted.
    .
    Rabin Yassin-Kassab quotes Jamal Hwayil two times:
    .
    “Political arrests are wrong. Wrong in Gaza and wrong in the West Bank. Political arrests have no place in a liberation struggle.”
    .
    “There can be neither meaningful negotiations nor productive armed resistance so long as the political leadership is divided.”
    .
    If you call this “lamenting the lack of armed resistance” it is a bit of a jump. Anyway Rabin Yassin-Kassab just reports, these are not his words.
    .
    Now (ignoring “Wow”) Rabbi Brant Rosen reacts twice:
    .
    .
    First:

    Re the quote from Jamal Hwayil:
    .
    It feels silly to have to reply to this, but you seem to be asking the question in seriousness:
    .
    Of course I don’t condone suicide bombings against civilians. To say I feel this article provides a powerful view of life in one West Bank city doesn’t not mean I agree with every single comment made by every interviewee.

    .
    .
    Second:

    This was a thoughtful article about important, notable divisions in Palestinian society. The quote in question was made during a conversation between a group of Palestinians discussing the issue of armed vs. nonviolent resistance (a central and much-debated issue in Palestinian society).
    .
    To say this article “calls for terrorism” is simply ludicrous. Did you even read it?

    .
    .
    To interpret this as Brant Rosen writes about Jamal Hwayil in the sense “otherwise he is fine and good and we should listen to him and respect him” or to write “Brant’s words speak for themselves. He agrees with Aristeides and Hwayil, except that maybe suicide bombings are not such a good idea.” is in my opinion outright slander.

  42. 
  43. This comment has been edited for foul language
    .
    All this back stabbing…lets get down to basics and ask all of you to advocate a solution. Stand up and be counted, express your formula for a peaceful settlement for all the peoples of Palestine and Israel. Assuming that is, that you are all in agreement as to that the “right of return” being applicable to one and all.

    Then consider which extension of neighboring lands might be incorporated to accommodate. I’ll start the ball rolling by suggesting that Jerusalem become a shared capital, that the formation of a Palestinian state incorporate land on both sides of the Golan Heights where new towns would resolve the problems of several million refugees and form a controlled border crossing.

    Now that’s being positive, put your money where your mouth is and help put an end to apartheid if that’s what believe the root cause to be.

    The 3rd Intafada is fast approaching, you have until May 15th to voice your opinion and help find a positive solution.

  44. 
  45. Lies of omission, Ben Israel. Brandt said “Productive” armed resistance. That is, effective armed resistance, not armed resistance unlikely to produce the intended effect.

    But are we to infer that you do not accept the right to armed resistance to an occupying power, as prescribed by international law? That you will stand up and condemn the armed resistance, including acts of terrorism, committed by the Jewish armed resistance against the British Mandate?

    Or are we to infer that you are only opposed to armed resistance as committed by Palestinians against the illegal Israeli occupation?

  46. 
  47. Israel is just like South Africa, except we don’t have an 18% HIV infection rate.

  48. 
  49. Rachel, you should move from ziostan.

  50. 
  51. PRAYER FOR PALESTINE FROM A JEW: Let us help them to create something extraordinary,just as we have for ourselves-it is in our best interest to do so! Let us help them to build a home they will love with all their hearts, as we love Israel! It is foolish to damage that which is precious.We are both great nations…let us never forget this.Let us nurture peace with both our enemies and our friends, and recognize that they are a mirror…reflecting light unto the nations.

  52. 
  53. We have a moral obligation to be creative in the ways we bring about peace. The “Arab Spring” we are now living through brings with it great dangers and great opportunities for peace in Israel/Palestine. We must find a way to be partners with each other. We cannot afford a failure of imagination this time around. It is a non-zero sum game. We must find a way to have our cake, and share it too.

  54. 
  55. In the debate about “ethnic cleansing”, the justice/injustice of the founding of the State of Israel in 1948 and the like, one thing is left out. Nobody ever discusses whether, eg, Pakistan or India was created in original sin, even though it resulted in the expulsion of tens of millions, and the death of (more or less) one million. How come? Could it have something to do with a particular uneasiness (on the part of both Jews and non-Jews) about the exercise of Jewish power and sovereignty (ie, a comfortable feeling about Jewish victimhood and the Diaspora, as if that is the natural state of things)? One of the definitions of anti-semitism is focusing on faults which are generally applicable and distributed among all types of people (whether it is dishonesty in business or population transfers as part of nation building, the norm in the 20th Century-after both World Wars)and applying them only to the Jews. With respect to Israel (both its founding and its defense policies) that is precisely the case. Happy Yom HaAtzmaoot!

  56. 
  57. If a famous artist denied there should be a Palestinian state and was consequently denied an honorary degree from CUNY, would anyone from 972 magazine. The only claim to fame of Mr Kushner is his anti-zionism, which distinguishes this mediocre artist from tens of thousands of other mediocre artists

  58. 
  59. @borg, Mr Kushner mediocre? Your standards are high!

  60. 
  61. [...] by trustees of New York City University to refuse an honorary degree from playwright Tony Kushner because he associated the term ethnic cleansing with the birth of Israel. And a few months ago, the Palestine Papers revealed that the US State Secretary of State [...]



Leave a comment