133 comments for ”To such an Israel I shall be a traitor“

    
  1. Maayan, thank you. I stand *partially* corrected. However, it is patently obvious that the rent issue is a red herring. The object of the Nahalat Shimon people is to evict the residents and settle Jews in their stead. It’s not like they would have been content with the rent. The Sephardic Community people may have been, 30 years ago, but they sold their title to the Settlers, who kept raising the rent and changing the designation of the residents. At first the residents paid the rent, but eventually some of them stopped because to continue doing so would be to accept these unilateral changes in their status. My family used to own property with protected residents, and we were unable to raise the rent in such a manner. Then again, our residents were Jews.

    The point remains that these people (The Palestinians) owned property inside Israel, were dispossessed of it in the nakba, and signed waivers in exchange for the right to live on this property. Unless you’re willing to recognize claims by Arabs who owned property in West Jerusalem before 1948 (not even other parts of Israel, just Jerusalem which you annexed and “unified”), it is patently unequal application of the law to recognize the Jewish claims in East Jerusalem. You cannot say “1948 wipes the slate” and then ignore that only for one side. In its insistence on this and other cases, Israel itself is re-opening all property claims inside Israel proper.

    Likewise, the whole issue of building permits for extensions is specious, since Israel neglects to make zoning rules for Arab towns, villages and neighborhoods, so virtually any construction there is illegal by default.

    Israel is very skilled at creating superficial legal pretext for its oppression, but that doesn’t make it anything other than oppression.

  2. 
  3. I haven’t followed all the details in the ‘rent’ conversation but feel like butting in with this:
    the american govt. has been paying the cuban govt. rent for the Guantanamo Bay area they’re using. The cuban govt. (claims it) has never taken that money out of the account the americans had set up for it. This was a unilateral thing- the americans said they’re keeping that land, but are being “large” by paying rent for it without even being asked. just because the americans are paying rent for it, doesnt mean the cubans should accept american ownership of that land. and for the same reason, it works the other way- just because u demand rent on something, doesn’t make you the rightful owner of it, and doesnt mean your tenants should accept you own that land.
    Paying rent, when it comes to questions of a people’s national sovereignty, can’t be compared to the regular “man rents flat, man pays landlord rent every month”.

  4. 
  5. There are two different things going on here and I believe that you need to differentiate between them. The first is that nothing happens in Sheikh Jarrah without legal fights preceding it. The courts in Israel have a chance to evaluate the merits of the cases. I trust Israel’s judiciary to be fair in its rulings.
    In this case, they had access to far more information that you’ll find on the internet about these homes and the ownership situation. They decided in favor of the plaintiffs. Not only that, but it took years of rent-free housing before the matter was resolved.
    The second aspect of this case involves the question of rights to property as a consequence of 1948/1967. I happen to agree that if you re-open the question of home ownership prior to 1948, you open a can of worms. By moving Jews into these neighborhoods, you also create a challenge in eventually separating these neighborhoods from Israel. On the other hand, let’s not forget that all the Jews were evicted from these neighborhoods in 1948 and just because some people would rather not see any Jews in their area, the morality of this is highly questionable.
    As for zoning laws and land available for construction, I was surprised to learn that while Jews are offered much more land to build on than Jerusalem Arabs, in fact the difference is proportional to their populations. I’m also unsure about the veracity of the claim that the Arabs can’t get permits to build in Jerusalem. I think the case is far more likely to be that they choose not to try, much in the same way as their lawyer told them to stop paying rent. It is hard to get permits to build when you’re Jewish as well. Of course, the biggest problem with the claim that the Palestinians are treated unfairly is that they have been able to grow the areas where they live so that these villages and communities are unrecognizable compared to 10 or 20 years ago.

  6. 
  7. By “their lawyer” in the last paragraph, I mean the lawyer of the evicted Sheikh Jarrah families.

  8. 
  9. It’s not “any Jews”, it’s “any Settlers”, definitely not when the Settlers moving in entails evicting grandmothers and toddlers. When an Arab can ever rent a house in a settlement, talk to me. Come on.

    And if you assume that the Israeli Supreme Court is always fair, the whole debate is pointless, because it is this very court that upholds both the occupation as a whole and the unequal treatment of pre-1948 property claims such as the one under discussion.

    The eviction of the Palestinian families from Sheikh Jarrah, Silwan and elsewhere in Jerusalem is an act of hostility designed to move Arabs out and Jews in, upset the fragile status-quo and prevent any possibility of returning East Jerusalem to the Palestinians for designation as their capital. To deny this is disingenuous in the extreme.

  10. 
  11. Rechavia, I’m sorry but Israel’s High Court is a court of justice. It is a respectable and respectful court that is unafraid to challenge the government and which is also unafraid to challenge laws that should not exist in Israel. I simply reject your claims that it is otherwise. I mean, really, if you want to attack Netanyahu or Lieberman or the political parties, please do it all day. But the idea that somehow the Israeli judiciary is playing a role in a conspiracy is outrageous. If you want to talk about being disingenuous in the extreme, this would be a good place to start.

    As for this particular story, the fact is that people didn’t pay their rent and were evicted for that reason after years in the courts. I’m sorry that this doesn’t fall in line with the “ethnic cleansing” theory, but it doesn’t. Perhaps the motives of those who pushed this issue in the courts involve pushing Palestinians out to be replaced by Jews, but what happened here was done in an entirely legal manner. Had the Palestinians paid their rent, there would have been no evictions.

    I tend to agree with you that these actions are hurting the prospects of giving – not returning, but giving – the Palestinians eastern Jerusalem in a peace agreement.

  12. 
  13. next time you go to jerusalem with your girlfriend, and u take bus number 2 from tachana merkazit to the kotel, and she gets violently shoved back by holy “shomrei negiaa” and then u find yourself thinking: “omg, is this iran! (oh wait, this doesnt happen in iran)omg, is this the 30′s in the states and she’s black, i must press charges!” you may want to remember, that even though israeli law considers (jewish)women as equal humans, the court could care less if this law was being upheld or not, and wait there’s more- it recommended we ignore it.
    and as we say on twitter: #Justsaying

  14. 
  15. Bravo, amen and well said. I would only say that the Israel you say you are loyal to never really existed, and will certainly never happen now as the orthodox demographic is against it. If you want that Israel it will have to be created by an equal merger with the Palestinians in one secular democracy that can join the decent people together to marginalise the rabid rabbis.

  16. 
  17. Tahel, if you want to open a blog where secular Israelis beat up on the negative influence of religion and religious authorities on Israeli society, you are welcome to include me as a writer. As far as I’m concerned, the Rabbinate should be dismantled and the remaining secular parties should make a coalition whose express purpose is to change both the election system and religious authority on civil matters. As to whether the law permits this or not, that’s a different question.

  18. 
  19. Amen brother

  20. 
  21. Great, plenty of room in Europe for you, can join the community of haters, they are such fun! They have lovely events, they demonstrate, have picnics and find ways of sustaining the hate. They are loved by the racist far left and fascist Islamists and it’s just one big party! You can even start your own group and make a nice banner, make up a cool chant and even have t-shirts! Good luck, yerida beckons!

  22. 
  23. ” yerida beckons ”

    beckons not for I
    for I was born here , as was my father and his
    I choose to stay and fight the Right
    Tomorrow belongs to us Abu Jihad , we post-zionists will continue to fight for ” An Israel that shall accord full and true equality to all its citizens ” as will my son and his
    its our country , we did not build it for the likes of the religious right wing and Avigdor Liberman and his ilk to destroy it with their facism

  24. 
  25. It doesn’t I’m afraid to tell you, sorry for the reality check but as communism/Marxism/socialism died a death so shall ‘post-Zionism’, you forget a rather larger constituency – the olim. It is extremely safe to say that we are a far larger community and a vast community which proudly contributes to Israel and to the Zionist cause. Take for example my story, and I am just a microcosm of what is out there, I made aliyah, proudly serving in Gdud 202 in the Paratroopers. I have three sons, one has just completed a gibush for Sayeret Matkal and will proudly serve, as will my other sons. I work for an organisation that advises the Israeli government and I raise funds in the galut for Israeli causes.
    In reality you are a racist, you deny the right of self-determination to both the Israeli and Palestinian people. I myself firmly believe in the right of both people to a nation state while you sit in your socialist existence and preach hate. As I said yerida is the only solution, ain ma la’sot motek!

  26. 
  27. post-zionism is very much alive and thriving , last elections we at Hadash gained seats

    we also proudly contribute to our country , my son is an officer in Shaldag
    we all serve , we have all served long before you made aliyah , serving does not make you special my friend

    I am no racist and I do not preach hate , I am a Leftist post-zionist and proud to be one,
    yerida is not the solution for me and mine moteck , we were here long before you and will still be here when the occupation is just a dim memory and the settlers have lost the Wild West Bank just as they lost the Gush .

  28. 
  29. Actually, the Israelis with TRUE credibility and depth of character are the ones who refuse to serve in the IDF. THEY are Israel’s heroes. As to this debate, I’ll have to place my bets that Abu Jihad is quite correct and Kibbutznic is engaged in wishful thinking. Is is the thugs, the Judeo-Supremacists and the lowest of the low who have consolidated total power in Israel.

  30. 
  31. According to Ami from 972, both Kibbutznik and Abu Jihad need to work on their Hebrew because they use “motek” to describe a male.

    Kibbutzink is lucky that his son is in Shaldag. What would you do if he was in a unit that serves regularly in Judea and Samaria?

  32. 
  33. he wants to insult me with ‘motek’ then he gets ‘motek’ right back at him Maayan

    no kibbutznik is lucky that his son had a choice

    refusal to serve is not an option , if you want to hand this country to the Right on a platter then give them control of the army and dont bother to vote

  34. 
  35. just read these comments all the way thru
    loved your song link Tahel Ilan
    try these :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkpwdQQcimU

  36. 
  37. great links!
    and I agree- people from everywhere, including israel, that care about resolving the conflict shouldn’t be pushing the ‘left’ out of the main bodies dealing with it- govt. and army.
    when i went to the army, my international left friends minded much more than my palestinian friends that understood that israel has a military, it has a mandatory draft, and for them to know that there ARE soldiers serving that are aware of what is going on, can only yield more positive results than if all army operations were run by the crazy right supporters.
    if we ignore the army it wont go away…

  38. 
  39. How many seats did Hadash get kibbutznik? What percentage of the total vote was it? You should celebrate it as it shows the plurality and diversity of Israel’s voters as well as the democratic nature of Israel. Compare it of course to the despotic and violent regimes that surround Israel – where you would not have a voice and where women and homosexuals certainly do not have a vote or any status. You are a rabid and bigoted racist, you sit in your post-socialist dwelling and you preach to the Palestinian people that they cannot have a homeland, all because you are yielded to a failed and dead ideology. Shame on you. If you want to give up on the right to arrange yourself in the way the rest of the world does then go live at the bottom of the sea, and grab some reality on the way down.

  40. 
  41. …………………………………………………………………Tahel,

    Not sure what I would do in your situation. The decision is very hard when faced with the demands of a Nazi state with the ability to ruin your life for disobedience. Nevertheless, there is absolutely no question what the RIGHT thing to do is, in terms of the israeli military (or for that matter, the American military). Refuse to serve.

  42. 
  43. I do celebrate Hadash Abu Jihad, thanks for asking , I suggest you wait for our next election results and keep one eye out for Avrum Burg , you may be in for a big surprise ;)

    ” You are a rabid and bigoted racist, you sit in your post-socialist dwelling and you preach to the Palestinian people that they cannot have a homeland, …”

    I don’t , I firmly believe that the Palestinian people deserve their own homeland , I am a follower of the Two State solution .
    If you are interested in what I believe then go here :

    http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims/

  44. 
  45. @BlightUntoNations: I think that’s much easier said then done and very dependent on the situation.
    The mandatory draft during the Vietnam war is different from the mandatory draft in Switzerland and France which are different from the mandatory draft in Israel.
    I can see why if I was living abroad and very detached from the ground I might have felt that way about people the serve in the IDF, but growing up in Israel gives that a different meaning.
    And I still believe that the Pros outweigh the Cons.

  46. 
  47. Maayan, even had the residents not refused to pay rent, the Settlers would simply have jacked up the rent beyond their reach, since your “court of justice” did nothing to stop that in the first place (when the rent was raised to 300 dollars a month, then doubled to 600, as per your own link) – the same way your court of justice does nothing when it orders the barrier at Bil’in moved and the army does nothing for years, continuing to brutally repress the demonstrations all the while.
    *
    The police and military regularly ignore court orders with impunity and nothing at all happens to them. Even Aharon Barak admits that he was to quick to accept arguments from the security establishment – which of course doesn’t stop his hand picked heiress from doing the same today.
    *
    Every single week the police violate the court’s injunctions regarding the right of protest in Sheikh Jarrah and the courts do nothing. Do you recall the last (or first) time anyone from the security establishment was held liable or even in contempt for lying under oath or for ignoring court orders? The army has been repeatedly proven to have lied regarding events at demonstrations – proven beyond doubt, with video evidence. Not a single cop or soldier has ever faced the consequences. The court is brave when it comes to the political establishment. The security forces? Not so much.

  48. 
  49. ” This has nothing to do with logic or justice, but everything to do with the principle of equality before the law – the citizens of Israel will feel they are as entitled to violate the law as the settlers.

    All too quickly it is becoming clear that the settlement culture is shaping the face of the State of Israel. There, beyond the Green Line, there are norms taking root that render Israeli courts impotent. Over there, the new real estate laws and symbols of the State of Israel are being created. Judea and Samaria, as we have been taught, is here. ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/settlers-no-longer-look-to-israel-or-its-laws-1.337245

  50. 
  51. The demonstrations in Bil’in are not brutally repressed. Tear gas and skunk water after demonstrators throw rocks and cut the fence is not brutal repression.

    You can jump up and down all you want screaming that the rent was unfair, that there should have been no rent, that the court should have done something different with the rent, and it will still render your argument vulnerable to the simple truth which is that we ALL have to either buy or rent our homes or the land they sit on and then pay to build them. The Arab families who were evicted decided they can stop paying for their housing and persisted in this position for many years. Once upon a time, Jews bought land from Arabs, in the Holy Land, for prices that were higher than NY City real estate prices. You know why? It was a question of supply and demand. This is no different. If the owners of these properties want to raise the rent, they may do so and it’s perfectly legal. If the renters can’t afford, they can move to a more affordable rental. JUST LIKE ALL OF US.

    As for the High Court, you don’t know what you’re talking about. What’s funny is you sound just like the far-Right. Left-wing NGOs dominate the High Court and have dominated its agenda and rulings for years. It is a tool that is used effectively both in and out of court because victory for the lefty groups is so prevalent. Take a look at page 18 of this academic paper – http://politics.huji.ac.il/MenachemHofnung/groups.pdf – to understand how effective a tool the Court has become for the NGOs that represent your point of view. Remember that 443 was open to Palestinian traffic because of a High Court ruling despite objections from the police and IDF. I would also wager that were it not for the incessant demonstrations at Bil’in, the army would have already moved the fence (it did start the work at the beginning of last year- http://palestinenote.com/blogs/news/archive/2010/02/12/israel-reroutes-separation-barrier-at-bilin.aspx).

    I didn’t have to go very far into google to find an instance of “security” people being punished for illegal behavior. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3920253,00.html

  52. 
  53. Maayan.

    1) Twenty-one people have been killed by the IDF’s riot suppression methods – including Bassem Abu Rahmah of Bil’in, who was hit in the chest by a teargas projectile. No soldier has been killed at a demonstration. If you had ever been to Bil’in, you would have cause, I believe, to re-assess your opinion that the IDF does not use brutal methods to break up unarmed demonstrations. You would also see that the sequence of events at those demos begins with unarmed demonstrators being shot at with tear gas, followed by a few Palestinian teens throwing some stones from a distance of 100 meters at soldiers in full riot protective gear.

    2) The families that were evicted from Sheikh Jarrah owned the houses they lived in from the mid-1950s. After Israel conquered East Jersualem in 1967, the authorities nationalized (aka ‘stole’) their homes and demanded they pay rent. Why should the families pay rent for homes they already owned?

    3) The Dotan/Hofnung paper is about how and why the HCJ came to play an increased role in affecting public policy, as the role of quasi-governmental advocacy groups like the Histadrut declined. Page 18 states that ACRI and Bimkom have achieved a high rate of success in cases they brought before the HCJ. However, the paper does not state anything about the nature of those cases.

    As you probably know, ACRI is not a left-wing organization. Its mandate is to protect the civil rights of *all* citizens – including, for example, the right of far-right Temple Institute members to stage a mock Passover sacrifice near the Temple Mount without police interference; and including the right of Baruch Marzel and his friends to hold a march in the middle of Um El Fahm. There is no evidence in the paper you cite that Israeli NGOs have been using the courts – either with or without success – to promote a left-wing agenda.

    4) The case you cite, of Lt. Col. Borberg being indicted & convicted for conduct unbecoming & illegal use of a weapon, is an extremely rare incident of an officer suffering legal repercussions for misconduct. If you consult the Yesh Din website, under Criminal Accountability of Israeli Security Forces (left margin of the homepage), you will see that the vast majority of cases – above 99% – go unpunished. Of the more than 2,000 cases that were brought to the authorities over the last five years, only 4 resulted in conviction. The case you cite received a great deal of publicity because of the video, of course. Borberg has not yet been sentenced. The blindfolded man who was shot at point blank range is Ashraf Abu Rahmah – the brother of Jawaher, who died after inhaling tear gas two weeks ago, and of Bassem, who died after he was hit in the chest by a tear gas canister the year before last.

  54. 
  55. Lisa,
    1. Yes, people have been killed, but it’s not because the IDF is being brutal at Bil’in. I’m glad you’re glad that no soldier has been killed in a demonstration. Maybe they should take off their riot gear to facilitate injury to themselves so that you can’t make this claim?

    2. The families evicted from Sheikh Jarrah did not own their homes. That’s why they were paying rent at the beginning, before they stopped.

    3. Of course both ACRI and Bimkom’s vast majority of cases involve left-wing causes. Who are you kidding? The fact is that Michael Sfard and B’Tzelem and Peace Now and all the other left-wing NGOs use the courts extensively and, as the paper notes, enjoy high success rates not just because of their victories but also because they are more likely to win by pre-emption of any trial.

    4. Sorry to keep bringing up “exceptions” to prove my point. Next time, I’ll just accept whatever you or Rechavia say at face value.

  56. 
  57. Maayan, your response # 1 is illogical; your response to #2 is erroneous; your response to #3 is disingenuous – a non-response, actually; and #4 is a non-response to the fact that over 99% of cases involving illegal acts of violence committed by soldiers goes unpunished.

    Anyway, I’ve been wasting a lot of time with several attempts to engage you with facts and logic. I won’t be responding to your comments anymore; and I will automatically delete any comments you leave on my personal channel, so as to leave room for comments from other readers with a grasp of logic and facts.

  58. 
  59. Haha. Lisa, you should go and attend some pro-democracy demonstrations. You clearly have a firm grasp on who should get to talk and when. That is, when they agree with you.

  60. 
  61. Im with Mr Berman. I support being a traitor to israel. The best way of being a traitor to israel is to leave for your true homelands. Brooklyns beaches beckon you. Minsk does too

  62. 
  63. I think lots of people made valuable points which I will not repeat here, but I do have a few remarks:
    1.- This conflict is NOT a Hollywood movie, neither side is completely evil or angelic; can we not accept that some israeli soldiers are abusing their situation of power? Can we not accept that not all palestinians are blameless idealists?
    Can we please not insult others and invite them to “laredet” just because we don’t like what they have to say? To Maayan, Rechavia, and Tahel, I appreciate you not getting personal and insulting and keeping this civil.

  64. 
  65. Palestinian people do not exist

    A provocative headline? It’s more than that. It’s the truth.

    Truth does not change. Truth is truth. If something was true 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it is still true today.

    And the truth is that only 30 years ago, there was very little confusion on this issue of Palestine.

    You might remember the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir making the bold political statement: ”There is no such thing as a Palestinian people.”

    The statement has been a source of ridicule and derision by Arab propagandists ever since. They love to talk about Golda Meir’s ”racism.” They love to suggest she was in historical denial. They love to say her statement is patently false – an intentional lie, a strategic deception.

    What they don’t like to talk about, however, are the very similar statements made by Yasser Arafat and his inner circle of political leadership years after Meir had told the truth – that there is no distinct Palestinian cultural or national identity.

    So, despite the fact that conventional wisdom has now proclaimed that there is such a thing as the Palestinian people, I’m going to raise those uncomfortable quotations made by Arafat and his henchmen when their public-relations guard was down.

    Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here’s what he said:

    The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ”Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

    For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

    That’s pretty clear, isn’t it? It’s even more specific than Golda Meir’s statement. It reaffirms what I have written on this subject. And it is hardly the only such statement of its kind. Arafat himself made a very definitive and unequivocal statement along these lines as late as 1993. It demonstrates conclusively that the Palestinian nationhood argument is the real strategic deception – one geared to set up the destruction of Israel.

    In fact, on the same day Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, he explained his actions on Jordan TV. Here’s what he said: ”Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.”



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