<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Thoughts on a joint but unequal Palestinian-Israeli struggle</title>
	<atom:link href="http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/</link>
	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 20:48:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Genii</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/comment-page-2/#comment-85176</link>
		<dc:creator>Genii</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2012 20:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=49242#comment-85176</guid>
		<description>For Israeli activists, if they are sincere, what they need to do is to tell their parents to hand the house key back to the Palestinian owners, apologize and move out. Get off the Palestinian&#039;s land. Where to is their problem. Their parents were illegal immigrants and so are they.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For Israeli activists, if they are sincere, what they need to do is to tell their parents to hand the house key back to the Palestinian owners, apologize and move out. Get off the Palestinian&#8217;s land. Where to is their problem. Their parents were illegal immigrants and so are they.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Portia</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/comment-page-1/#comment-69048</link>
		<dc:creator>Portia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 03:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=49242#comment-69048</guid>
		<description>NIZ dropping truth on people. AMAZING.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NIZ dropping truth on people. AMAZING.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bobz</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/comment-page-1/#comment-68885</link>
		<dc:creator>bobz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=49242#comment-68885</guid>
		<description>you say you represent yourself..(and u are a minority among israelis in the way yo think)yet you use the word we... i would like to make clear to you that most criticisms ever made were towards zionist left or zionist liberals and not anti-zionists...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you say you represent yourself..(and u are a minority among israelis in the way yo think)yet you use the word we&#8230; i would like to make clear to you that most criticisms ever made were towards zionist left or zionist liberals and not anti-zionists&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rana Nazzal</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/comment-page-1/#comment-68198</link>
		<dc:creator>Rana Nazzal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2012 04:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=49242#comment-68198</guid>
		<description>I agree with most of your comments but I think these thoughts would be more complete if they were shared among other Palestinian thinkers as your thoughts cannot be complete without their perspective.

What came to mind for me is that my father still holds the key to his house in Tabaria which his family was forced to leave. He still lives on the hope of return to that home which his grandfather built.

Because of the suffering of the occupied Palestinians from the very beginning of the state of Israel, I believe they have the right to lead the resolution of this conflict. Palestinians have been denied autonomy and unfortunately even many of the activists who wish to support their struggle end up overpowering their voices. Solidarity activists should in my opinion support Palestinians&#039; right to autonomously choose the outcome of their country which was invaded by an ethnic-cleanser and occupier not so long ago.

Instead, many activists from Israel and abroad, holding on to what I consider the colonial mindsets of their home countries, believe they can &#039;know better&#039; what a just solution is. 

No, expelling all Israeli Jews is not practical and is rarely discussed as a solution in Palestinian circles. However, a just right-of-return must be negotiated and to me this means returning to the original villages (if still standing) and homes.

In South Africa when apartheid &#039;ended&#039;, the land was never returned to the black owners and thus the power remains in largely white hands and the slums remain exclusively black.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with most of your comments but I think these thoughts would be more complete if they were shared among other Palestinian thinkers as your thoughts cannot be complete without their perspective.</p>
<p>What came to mind for me is that my father still holds the key to his house in Tabaria which his family was forced to leave. He still lives on the hope of return to that home which his grandfather built.</p>
<p>Because of the suffering of the occupied Palestinians from the very beginning of the state of Israel, I believe they have the right to lead the resolution of this conflict. Palestinians have been denied autonomy and unfortunately even many of the activists who wish to support their struggle end up overpowering their voices. Solidarity activists should in my opinion support Palestinians&#8217; right to autonomously choose the outcome of their country which was invaded by an ethnic-cleanser and occupier not so long ago.</p>
<p>Instead, many activists from Israel and abroad, holding on to what I consider the colonial mindsets of their home countries, believe they can &#8216;know better&#8217; what a just solution is. </p>
<p>No, expelling all Israeli Jews is not practical and is rarely discussed as a solution in Palestinian circles. However, a just right-of-return must be negotiated and to me this means returning to the original villages (if still standing) and homes.</p>
<p>In South Africa when apartheid &#8216;ended&#8217;, the land was never returned to the black owners and thus the power remains in largely white hands and the slums remain exclusively black.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom o' Bedlam</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/comment-page-1/#comment-67183</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom o' Bedlam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jul 2012 05:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=49242#comment-67183</guid>
		<description>@NIZ, XYZ, MAX:

For long, we thought about an endgame to the conflict, and having decided that endgame, we went ahead and decided our immediate steps. I don&#039;t think we should do that anymore. I think NIZ gets close to the better approach when he says that for now we &quot;only need direction,&quot; and the direction is to fight against violations to basic human rights and dignities.  

I agree that Israel, being in the comfortable place it is, will not simply choose to end its injustices and must be brought to end them. But what I&#039;m asking you to remember is that bringing Israel to that point will take not only so many years, but also so much integration, universality, interdisciplinary and cross-cultural exchange, cooperation of civil-societies -- it will take so much of these things (along with their ensuing social implications on both societies) to a point where what we now think is &quot;unrealistic&quot; will seem readily plain and implementable then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@NIZ, XYZ, MAX:</p>
<p>For long, we thought about an endgame to the conflict, and having decided that endgame, we went ahead and decided our immediate steps. I don&#8217;t think we should do that anymore. I think NIZ gets close to the better approach when he says that for now we &#8220;only need direction,&#8221; and the direction is to fight against violations to basic human rights and dignities.  </p>
<p>I agree that Israel, being in the comfortable place it is, will not simply choose to end its injustices and must be brought to end them. But what I&#8217;m asking you to remember is that bringing Israel to that point will take not only so many years, but also so much integration, universality, interdisciplinary and cross-cultural exchange, cooperation of civil-societies &#8212; it will take so much of these things (along with their ensuing social implications on both societies) to a point where what we now think is &#8220;unrealistic&#8221; will seem readily plain and implementable then.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Niz</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/comment-page-1/#comment-67081</link>
		<dc:creator>Niz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2012 11:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=49242#comment-67081</guid>
		<description>@Richard
I agree with your description and I acknowledge that there is no consensus among Palestinians about this issue (national movement vs. civil rights movement). However, I have to point out that the PLO was demanding a democratic state for Jews and Palestinians in the Mithaq of 1968. So they are not very far from it- ya&#039;ani a state with equal rights for both people. To start a civil rights movement then is to acknowledge the state that was created and embrace it- to transform it. It&#039;s definitely hard and against the psychological tendency. However with the collapse of the national movement, Palestinians - as individuals- will start demanding that. (ps. I feel sometimes that we will lose all the battles but still win the war). A one state solution will not be demanded by Palestinians except when they understand that the two state is not feasible anymore. 

@Max- I want to go further into Zionism and Judaism. Zionism was not created 2000 years ago. Zionism is a bi-product of European nationalism- it&#039;s purely an Ashkenazi delirium. The Sephardim never produced such an ideology for many reasons that we still see it until today. The Ottoman empire and the Arab world are not a racialized place. If you speak Arabic even if you are in Sudan you become an Arab. The jews were not seen in the Arab east as a &#039;race&#039; but as a &#039;millet&#039;. Till now the Arabs cannot conceive of the jews as a race or an ethnic group. The jews in Europe were seen as a race, this is why they were never assimilated. Basically the Jews in Europe could not do anything about their condition- they were going to be eternally &quot;dirty&quot; because of their ethnicity. In the Arab east that was not the case, Jews were seen as part of the ethnic composition, they were seen Arab- part of the fabric (this does not mean that they were not discriminated against). It makes sense that zionism then started in Europe and not in the Middle East. The Arab Jews they continued the Jewish tradition of looking at &#039;Israel&#039; as a religious utopia and not a physical ethnic origin. Until today and you have to understand that, the Arabs look at the Jews as &#039;European&#039;- and do not conceive of them as an ethnicity. They are either a religion or an imperial imposition. Zionism for me destroyed beautiful communities of Yemeni Jews and Iraqi Jews while all the symbols of oriental Judaism was appropriated by the Ashkenazi narrative. That is a real tragedy to Judaism itself. (I claim my Jewishness as well by the way- Elijah is also our prophet- Elias dots the Levantine streets from Palestine to Damascus, Egypt, Iraq and beyond). This is why i do not acknowledge the Jews as an ethnic group, and i separate the Sephardim from Ashkenazim and so on and so forth). The disease- the real disease is nationalism. 

@ Richard, 

ehhh... I forgot to mention that when you say Zionism was an emancipatory experience for &#039;jews&#039;, again you refer to a strictly European Ashkenazi experience. The Arab jews were obliterated in the process toward a monolithic conception of Jewishness. Of course the Baath and Arab nationalist parties did the same- eradicated difference for a constructed fictitious understanding of what it means to be an Arab.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Richard<br />
I agree with your description and I acknowledge that there is no consensus among Palestinians about this issue (national movement vs. civil rights movement). However, I have to point out that the PLO was demanding a democratic state for Jews and Palestinians in the Mithaq of 1968. So they are not very far from it- ya&#8217;ani a state with equal rights for both people. To start a civil rights movement then is to acknowledge the state that was created and embrace it- to transform it. It&#8217;s definitely hard and against the psychological tendency. However with the collapse of the national movement, Palestinians &#8211; as individuals- will start demanding that. (ps. I feel sometimes that we will lose all the battles but still win the war). A one state solution will not be demanded by Palestinians except when they understand that the two state is not feasible anymore. </p>
<p>@Max- I want to go further into Zionism and Judaism. Zionism was not created 2000 years ago. Zionism is a bi-product of European nationalism- it&#8217;s purely an Ashkenazi delirium. The Sephardim never produced such an ideology for many reasons that we still see it until today. The Ottoman empire and the Arab world are not a racialized place. If you speak Arabic even if you are in Sudan you become an Arab. The jews were not seen in the Arab east as a &#8216;race&#8217; but as a &#8216;millet&#8217;. Till now the Arabs cannot conceive of the jews as a race or an ethnic group. The jews in Europe were seen as a race, this is why they were never assimilated. Basically the Jews in Europe could not do anything about their condition- they were going to be eternally &#8220;dirty&#8221; because of their ethnicity. In the Arab east that was not the case, Jews were seen as part of the ethnic composition, they were seen Arab- part of the fabric (this does not mean that they were not discriminated against). It makes sense that zionism then started in Europe and not in the Middle East. The Arab Jews they continued the Jewish tradition of looking at &#8216;Israel&#8217; as a religious utopia and not a physical ethnic origin. Until today and you have to understand that, the Arabs look at the Jews as &#8216;European&#8217;- and do not conceive of them as an ethnicity. They are either a religion or an imperial imposition. Zionism for me destroyed beautiful communities of Yemeni Jews and Iraqi Jews while all the symbols of oriental Judaism was appropriated by the Ashkenazi narrative. That is a real tragedy to Judaism itself. (I claim my Jewishness as well by the way- Elijah is also our prophet- Elias dots the Levantine streets from Palestine to Damascus, Egypt, Iraq and beyond). This is why i do not acknowledge the Jews as an ethnic group, and i separate the Sephardim from Ashkenazim and so on and so forth). The disease- the real disease is nationalism. </p>
<p>@ Richard, </p>
<p>ehhh&#8230; I forgot to mention that when you say Zionism was an emancipatory experience for &#8216;jews&#8217;, again you refer to a strictly European Ashkenazi experience. The Arab jews were obliterated in the process toward a monolithic conception of Jewishness. Of course the Baath and Arab nationalist parties did the same- eradicated difference for a constructed fictitious understanding of what it means to be an Arab.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: max</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/comment-page-1/#comment-66966</link>
		<dc:creator>max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2012 14:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=49242#comment-66966</guid>
		<description>NIZ - you made your point clear enough for me to understand (I wish there were many many more expressing views as you do), and I failed to do the same. Sorry.
The other side&#039;s view, which would - as I see the possible balance between its major driver and the moral aspects - drive towards a 2-state solution, isn&#039;t that of the individual but the collective. What may not be relevant for the solution but most likely for the mutual understanding is that Zionism, which precedes Palestinian  national aspiration by either 2,000 or about 100 years - and specifically during the past 150 years - is a national movement, not a road for the peaceful existence of the individuals; the Palestinian movement is still struggling to define itself within these dimensions: the right to return to specific homes and the national aspirations.
Granted, Zionism exhibits similarities with its own &#039;right to return&#039;, but not based on the individual&#039;s- but the collective&#039;s rights.
.
The point is that these aspirations, similar to those of the vast majority in the world - and we&#039;re not discussing utopia here, I hope - aspirations enhanced by a long history of suffering as a collective and a recent trauma, will only be addressed within a less-than-utopian reality, that of a 2-state solution.
To keep such a reality moral and liberal, I guess on both sides but I&#039;ll only refer to the Jewish one, that state has to have a guaranteed Jewish majority to ensure the Jewish Home idea, while providing equal rights to all.
With no threat to their ideal, the Jewish population would find no excuse for the current state of affairs. 
.
So as I see no argument to support the claim that a 1-state solution is more feasible than a 2-state one, and as a 2-state one would be easier to manage internally, the latter is the one I aspire to.
.
The optimistic aspect is that we both advocate a similar road for the near &amp; medium future, driving understanding, creating trust and of course continuously improving personal rights.
The pessimistic aspect is that neither society, resp. leadership seems to be ready to accept this vision.
And, while I understand your reasoning about violence, I am convinced that with the current and foreseeable international context, it won&#039;t work the way you hope for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NIZ &#8211; you made your point clear enough for me to understand (I wish there were many many more expressing views as you do), and I failed to do the same. Sorry.<br />
The other side&#8217;s view, which would &#8211; as I see the possible balance between its major driver and the moral aspects &#8211; drive towards a 2-state solution, isn&#8217;t that of the individual but the collective. What may not be relevant for the solution but most likely for the mutual understanding is that Zionism, which precedes Palestinian  national aspiration by either 2,000 or about 100 years &#8211; and specifically during the past 150 years &#8211; is a national movement, not a road for the peaceful existence of the individuals; the Palestinian movement is still struggling to define itself within these dimensions: the right to return to specific homes and the national aspirations.<br />
Granted, Zionism exhibits similarities with its own &#8216;right to return&#8217;, but not based on the individual&#8217;s- but the collective&#8217;s rights.<br />
.<br />
The point is that these aspirations, similar to those of the vast majority in the world &#8211; and we&#8217;re not discussing utopia here, I hope &#8211; aspirations enhanced by a long history of suffering as a collective and a recent trauma, will only be addressed within a less-than-utopian reality, that of a 2-state solution.<br />
To keep such a reality moral and liberal, I guess on both sides but I&#8217;ll only refer to the Jewish one, that state has to have a guaranteed Jewish majority to ensure the Jewish Home idea, while providing equal rights to all.<br />
With no threat to their ideal, the Jewish population would find no excuse for the current state of affairs.<br />
.<br />
So as I see no argument to support the claim that a 1-state solution is more feasible than a 2-state one, and as a 2-state one would be easier to manage internally, the latter is the one I aspire to.<br />
.<br />
The optimistic aspect is that we both advocate a similar road for the near &amp; medium future, driving understanding, creating trust and of course continuously improving personal rights.<br />
The pessimistic aspect is that neither society, resp. leadership seems to be ready to accept this vision.<br />
And, while I understand your reasoning about violence, I am convinced that with the current and foreseeable international context, it won&#8217;t work the way you hope for.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/comment-page-1/#comment-66940</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=49242#comment-66940</guid>
		<description>Gershom Gorenberg made an interesting point at the J Street convention, in a panel with Mustafa Barghouti.

That is that both communities currently think of their rights as national, at least as pronounced as they think of their rights as individual.

An individual rights campaign is likely to be effective. A national rights campaign is likely to be a zero-sum (war).

But, for Palestinian nationalists to adopt an individual rights campaign, is to adopt living in New York, when they don&#039;t live in New York. Their claim to identity is a continuity with the more provincial past, transformed into a national movement, not into an individual civil rights movement.

Its a difficult decision process I&#039;m sure. That decision process is the Palestinian community&#039;s responsibility.

One can blame Israel for difficulty and suppressions, but not for the failure of the Palestinian community to discuss, to unify, along principles that are feasible in the modern world (which include consideration of what would be ratifiable among Israelis.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gershom Gorenberg made an interesting point at the J Street convention, in a panel with Mustafa Barghouti.</p>
<p>That is that both communities currently think of their rights as national, at least as pronounced as they think of their rights as individual.</p>
<p>An individual rights campaign is likely to be effective. A national rights campaign is likely to be a zero-sum (war).</p>
<p>But, for Palestinian nationalists to adopt an individual rights campaign, is to adopt living in New York, when they don&#8217;t live in New York. Their claim to identity is a continuity with the more provincial past, transformed into a national movement, not into an individual civil rights movement.</p>
<p>Its a difficult decision process I&#8217;m sure. That decision process is the Palestinian community&#8217;s responsibility.</p>
<p>One can blame Israel for difficulty and suppressions, but not for the failure of the Palestinian community to discuss, to unify, along principles that are feasible in the modern world (which include consideration of what would be ratifiable among Israelis.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/comment-page-1/#comment-66939</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=49242#comment-66939</guid>
		<description>You should offer some appreciation for the change of heart that Zionism represents in the Jewish people.

We are not passive any more. We are free in ways that weren&#039;t possible really anywhere confidently a century ago.

That shift in consciousness, that pride, is not as soluble as idealists would imagine. There is a substantive basis to it.

To my understanding, the two-state approach, with features to facilitate interaction and relatively free travel, then free residence, then possible federation, is a much quicker and much much less violent path to bi-national integration, than any resistance movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should offer some appreciation for the change of heart that Zionism represents in the Jewish people.</p>
<p>We are not passive any more. We are free in ways that weren&#8217;t possible really anywhere confidently a century ago.</p>
<p>That shift in consciousness, that pride, is not as soluble as idealists would imagine. There is a substantive basis to it.</p>
<p>To my understanding, the two-state approach, with features to facilitate interaction and relatively free travel, then free residence, then possible federation, is a much quicker and much much less violent path to bi-national integration, than any resistance movement.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: niz</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/thoughts-on-a-joint-yet-unequal-palestinian-israeli-liberation-struggle/49242/comment-page-1/#comment-66892</link>
		<dc:creator>niz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=49242#comment-66892</guid>
		<description>@Max

Also, the palestinians have not yet understood or conceived of the ability to live together with Israelis in one state. Maybe they have, but it resides in their unconscious- probably too afraid to acknowledge it. You have to understand that this conflict - like Israelis- has become part of our narrative, of how we see the world. This is a historical process. The Palestinians and Israelis through non-violent actions and as this article testifies have started conceptualizing such an outcome. The bankruptcy of the PA, Fatah, and Hamas will pave the way for new political forces. As i said before it has not matured yet. It will gradually manifest itself. This gradual process is also occurring in Israel. The solution that I have is not real- it is still floating like an unfulfilled vision for thundering Elijah. But in order to get the bicycle moving you only need direction. The direction is clear: No separation, equality, &amp; freedom of movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Max</p>
<p>Also, the palestinians have not yet understood or conceived of the ability to live together with Israelis in one state. Maybe they have, but it resides in their unconscious- probably too afraid to acknowledge it. You have to understand that this conflict &#8211; like Israelis- has become part of our narrative, of how we see the world. This is a historical process. The Palestinians and Israelis through non-violent actions and as this article testifies have started conceptualizing such an outcome. The bankruptcy of the PA, Fatah, and Hamas will pave the way for new political forces. As i said before it has not matured yet. It will gradually manifest itself. This gradual process is also occurring in Israel. The solution that I have is not real- it is still floating like an unfulfilled vision for thundering Elijah. But in order to get the bicycle moving you only need direction. The direction is clear: No separation, equality, &amp; freedom of movement.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
