Many Palestinians — on both sides of the Green Line — see the rise of the openly fascist right wing as a positive development, because eventually it will work to sever the umbilical cord of support to Israel from the world.
Leader of the National Religious Party (“Jewish Home”) Naftali Bennett (photo: Yotam Ronen / activestills.org)
As Israelis go to the polls to cast their ballots for the Knesset, many Palestinian citizens will not be voting in this round of elections. In a recent New York Times article, correspondent Jodi Rudoren expounds as to the many reasons why this is the case, save one. On a recent trip to the country I spoke with many Palestinian citizens of Israel who actually expressed a desire to see the further ascendancy of the Israeli Right. Their logic is based on the inadvertent consequences of right-wing control of Israeli politics. Essentially, the further movement of Israel to the right intensifies its ugliest and most undemocratic tendencies, which leads to further estrangement and isolation in international politics.
They view the rise of the openly fascist right wing as a positive development, because eventually it will work to sever the umbilical cord of support to Israel from the world. Europe, and even possibly the United States, will find it progressively more difficult to ideologically support a nation that is so unabashed in its views and against any form of peace process with the Palestinians. Israel is increasingly becoming Frankestein’s monster that even its former patrons are looking upon in disgust.
Some appreciate the brutal honesty of Israeli right-wing officials, as opposed to what they consider a more duplicitous rhetoric from Israel’s left and center parties, who only come knocking around election time. They believe the fall of the Left in Israel is due to a fundamental dishonesty inherent in their ideological position as well as crucial mistakes they have made during past periods of governance.
Essentially, the Left-Labor movement was the progenitor of the illegal settlements in the West Bank and Gaza to begin with, and continued to strengthen them even during the peace accords — an enterprise which marks the entire history of Israeli state building and colonization. While understanding the nature of Israel coalition politics, Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres were both involved in this contradictory behavior, before, during and after Oslo. In essence, they were strengthening the enemy of their own position as a sort of insurance policy and with the political mindset that speaking out to the settlers and peaceniks simultaneously would win the support of both. All the while, however, as the settlement movement continued to grow in strength — a strength precipitated by the Left’s financial and political support — the settlers would develop their own national leadership capable of challenging the Left from their increasingly strong base. And this is what we are seeing today: outside of the traditional right wing who have always supported settlers — Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Netanyahu, etc. — a new national leadership is emerging in the likes of Avigdor Lieberman, Naftali Bennett and others.
Furthermore, when the peace process collapsed in 2000 after the failure of Camp David, Ehud Barak and the Israeli Left proceeded to put the entire onus of blame on the shoulders of Arafat and the Palestinians, thus making the case for the Israeli Right that there was no Palestinian peace partner. This backfired on the Israeli Left by pulling the rug out from under their entire political program and shattering their support from the Israeli center. The Israeli Right capitalized on this contradiction in the leftist position, and along with the bloody years of the Second Intifada, was able to pull the Israeli center much further to the right.
It is not that surprising then that many Palestinians I meet prefer the Israeli right wing because they do not cloak their message in liberalism, like the Left does. They do not preach one thing and do the opposite. Palestinians appreciate this honesty, even if it is directed against them. The new breed of right-wing Israeli politician is not interested in paying lip service to Europe and the United States, while at the same time working to dispossess the Palestinians. Those who say there is no honor among thieves have never heard Naftali Bennett speak.
Today many Palestinians on both sides of the Green Line are starting to view the two-state solution as either too far gone or undesirable in its implications. They believe that the Israeli Right is hastening the movement away from the two-state solution, in which one state will be the inevitable alternative — even if that is not the intention of the right-wing movement. As the Israeli right wing directs its policies against them in the short term, there is a belief that it will be better in the end. If Naftali Bennett succeeds in his plan to annex Area C for example — which comprises 60 percent of the West Bank — then there will no longer be any false pretenses about the possibility of a two-state solution. The peace process veil will be lifted and the ugly face of apartheid will be apparent for all the world to see. Will the U.S. continue to support Israel then?
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Epstein
The Israeli Left were always Orwellian in their Double Talk. Rabin used to brag about how many Settlers he created over Likud’s number.
Palestinian
Discussing the Israeli Zionist political parties is like looking at an ugly painting from different angles .Fascism is their trademark.
Jo
“The peace process veil will be lifted and the ugly face of apartheid will be apparent for all the world to see. Will the U.S. continue to support Israel then?”
Te answer is yes, Omar.
He who thinks that europe and the US (the soc-calle civilized world”) will deliver his liberation is the best thing that happened to Zionism. The tragedy of the Palestinians is that their intellectuals still do not understand why they were defeated. the Palestinian-Arab historical incompetence is the single most depressing thing.
Kolumn9
+1
Kiwi
“Furthermore, when the peace process collapsed in 2000 after the failure of Camp David, Ehud Barak and the Israeli Left proceeded to put the entire onus of blame on the shoulders of Arafat”
But it was true. The process did collapse because of Arafat who insisted on the so called right of return. No Israeli government will ever give in to that demand. Not even left wing Israelis. Why should they?
The Trespasser
It has became fashionable to refer to “Palestinian Arabs” as “Palestinians” thus denying any connection and relationship with Arab Umma, and pretending that only Palestinian Arabs (which hardly are homogenous as well) are “the Palestinian People” while other inhabitants of Palestine simply never existed.
An acceptable point of view of course, but just a bit contradictional to demand for equality and human rights.
Palestinian
They refer to Syrians as ….Syrians and Iraqis as ….yes Iraqis and to Algerians as ..guess what aha Algerians ….surprise .
Kiwi
So how come the Jews were called Palestinians, prior to 1948?
Here, read about the Palestinian philharmonic orchestra which was founded in 1936, by Jews.
“In August Huberman announced that he was resigning from the teaching staff of the Vienna State Academy in order to devote himself to the Palestine Orchestra”
http://www.huberman.info/biography/palestine/
Palestinian
The illegal Jewish Zionist European immigrants founded the first orchestra in Palestine and named it the Palestine Orchestra because it was in Palestine ,but they never referred to themselves as Palestinians,if you’d read the article first, you wouldn’t sound like a fool …
Kiwi
“European immigrants founded the first orchestra in Palestine and named it the Palestine Orchestra because it was in Palestine ,but they never referred to themselves as Palestinians”
They referred to their orchestra as Palestinian because it was in Palestine but to themselves they did not refer as Palestinians (prior to 1948)?
And people who migrated to Australia don’t refer to themselves Australian either?
Don’t you think that your point is self contradictory, Palestinian?
Palestinian
Read the article you suggested,it doesnt refer to those immigrants as Palestinians.
People move to Australia to become Australian citizens,not to establish new countries on the ruins of Australia.
Kiwi
“Read the article you suggested,it doesnt refer to those immigrants as Palestinians.”
They were Jewish immigrants who were refugees from European countries. But they had Palestinians stamped into their passports. And they certainly came to regard themselves as Palestinians. The fact that they called THEIR orchestra as the Palestinian orchestra certainly should give you a clue that it was so.
“People move to Australia to become Australian citizens,not to establish new countries on the ruins of Australia.”
Are you saying that the original Europeans did not go to Australia to establish a new country? No white European ever lived in Australia before. Yet it is now regarded as a country.
The Jewish people on the other hand were descendants of a people who lived in Palestine. They had a much greater claim to Palestine (or at least part of it) than the Europeans who invaded Australia and who are now recognised by everyone as Australians.
The Trespasser
Back in 1919 Palestinian Arabs were referring to themselves as … Palestinian Arabs.
“The first Palestinian Arab congress (al-Muʾtamar al-Arabi al-Filastini) met in Jerusalem from 27 January to 9 February 1919.”
The funnies part is that you basically are denying the Palestinian Charter
“Article 1. Palestine is an Arab homeland bound by strong Arab national ties to the rest of the Arab Countries and which together form the great Arab homeland.”
Palestinian
There are Palestinian Arabs ,Syrian Arabs,Iraqi Arabs ….we are all Arabs and part of your favorite Umma .Today people refer to us as Palestinians,on both sides of the Green Line,in refugees camps and even in diaspora.Just like when I refer to someone as Yafawi ,it doesnt mean he isnt Palestinian.
The Trespasser
Good, good, we are making some progress.
Now, who are non-Arab population of, say, Syria.
Kurds for example.
Are they Syrians?
Or Palestinian Samaritans? Are they Palestinians?
Palestinian
The French are Europeans and the Germans are Europeans .When I say I have a European visitor someone may ask me “where does he come from” ? He ma be French which makes him a French European.Palestinian Arabs are Arabs who come from Palestine ,Iraqi Arabs are Arabs who come from Iraq not Tunisia.
The Trespasser
I see.
Multiple fallacies.
>The French are Europeans and the Germans are Europeans
Europe is not “nationality” or “ethnicity”.
It is a name of continent/part of continent, like “Asia”, “Middle East” or “Africa”
>When I say I have a European visitor someone may ask me “where does he come from”? He may be French which makes him a French European.
So if that person immigrated from Morocco it would make him Moroccan French European, and someone from Northern Spain is Basque Spanish European.
Afrikaner South-African African.
Jew Turkish Asian.
Russian Canadian North-American.
ROFL
You’ve just made my day.
>Palestinian Arabs are Arabs who come from Palestine, Iraqi Arabs are Arabs who come from Iraq not Tunisia.
Correct.
You haven’t answered my question tho:
I’ll repeat, in case you’ve missed it.
Now, who are non-Arab population of, say, Syria.
Kurds for example.
Are they Syrians?
Palestinian
Cyprus is considered politically and culturally a European country although geographically its not.Australia is part of the Western world although geographically its in the Far East !
If a large number of Moroccans immigrated to France against the will of the French people ,massacred French families , took over their properties and established their own culturally Moroccan state in France then no they arent French nor Europeans.
The Trespasser
Your mastery of “Red Herring” attacks is below any criticism.
You still haven’t answered one simple question. To me it is a sufficient proof of weakness of your position and falsehood of your claims.
Now let’s have some phun :]
>Cyprus is considered politically and culturally a European country although geographically its not.
Irrelevant nonsense. Whatever European is in Cyprus is brought there by occupying British army. Turks, btw, consider Cyprus as Turkish, which is truth geographically.
>Australia is part of the Western world although geographically its in the Far East!
Geographically, Australia is a separate continent. Certainly not “far east”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_East
>… then no they aren’t French nor Europeans.
Ok. Let’s imagine that Moroccans took entire Northern Spain and Southern France and declared a state of “North Marocco”
So who they are, if not French, nor Europeans, and who are the ingenious population?
Palestinian
“Your mastery of “Red Herring” attacks is below any criticism”
Coming from someone like you ,its my honor
If Cyprus isnt geographically part of Europe why is it considered a European country ?
Geographically, Australia is in the East ,yet its considered a Western country.These are facts that you are unable to deal with…
The Trespasser
Still you have not answered one simple question regarding Kurd.
Not that I was expecting an answer – it’s well known that Arabs are not considering Kurds as humans. After all, Kurds are pagans.
>If Cyprus isnt geographically part of Europe why is it considered a European country?
Considered by whom? EU is a political organization, EU membership does not define a country as European.
>Geographically, Australia is in the East
Nonsense.
Geographically, Australia is in the South.
>yet its considered a Western country.
Culturally. How exactly is it relevant to continents and regions?
>These are facts that you are unable to deal with…
Facts lol.
Dude, where was the school that you attended? USA? Palestine?
Ah, nevermind. Just make sure you send your children there.
Palestinian
The Kurds ?Well I can play your game ,ask you another question and refuse to answer yours unless your answer mine , isnt that what you did last time ?
Although we arent discussing the EU membership,I can say Switzerland is a non-EU European country.
Geographically, Australia is in the Eastern hemisphere,just like Indonesia,yet its considered a Western country.
Cyprus is a European country although geographically its not, which means the word European doesnt only refer to people who live in the continent of Europe.
The school I attended taught me the difference between nationality and ethnicity ,unlike yours .
I think we are done with your Moroccan-French theory.
The Trespasser
>Well I can play your game ,ask you another question and refuse to answer yours unless your answer mine.
Your limited mind is not even capable to come up with your own game. Do me a favor – I ain’t playing with stupid people.
>Geographically, Australia is in the Eastern hemisphere,just like Indonesia,yet its considered a Western country.
You are very very stupid man. I mean like probably one of most stupid people I’ve ever met.
“Eastern Hemisphere” includes everything which is EAST of Greenwich, which includes countries like Italy, Germany, Norway, Russia, Australia and Thailand.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Hemisferio_Leste.png
>Cyprus is a European country
Nonsense.
>The school I attended taught me the difference between nationality and ethnicity
Maybe. But terms like “continent”, “hemisphere” and many others remained outside your very narrow scope of study.
>I think we are done with your Moroccan-French theory.
The only theory we have here is that “Palestinians” comprise some distinct ethnicity, which you are trying to prove but fail miserably each and every time.
Palestinian
Only stupid people spend hours arguing with other stupid people.
Why countries east of the prime meridian are considered part of the Western world ? The term Western here doesnt mean literally in the West ,just like the term European doesnt mean only people who live in the continent of Europe,I hope your brain can comprehend that
Facts :Cyprus is a European country and nationality isnt ethnicity (as you claim).Arabs on both sides of the Green Line are Palestinians and there is no contradiction.
The Trespasser
>Only stupid people spend hours arguing with other stupid people.
Not quite.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
Mark Twain
>Why countries east of the prime meridian are considered part of the Western world?
Some of them considered Western, other considered Eastern.
Your point being?
>The term Western here doesnt mean literally in the West
No.
>just like the term European doesnt mean only people who live in the continent of Europe
Apparently it does. You are welcome to bring up an example of European (Not EU) nation which lives elsewhere.
>Facts :Cyprus is a European country
Nonsense. Cyprus is a EU country, which is quite not the same.
>Arabs on both sides of the Green Line are Palestinians and there is no contradiction.
1 – There are also Palestinians who are not Arabs, what about them?
2 – Palestinian Arabs who became citizens of Israel became Israeli Arabs, no contradiction.
Palestinian
Oh you were beaten by moi ? Maybe if you were smart,you would have listened to Mark Twain.
Why some of the countries east of the prime meridian are considered part of the Western world?
Cyprus has been considered a European country before joining the EU in 2004,hard luck.
Can you give me one example of non-Arab Palestinians ? I am sure we will enjoy this.
Palestinian Arabs who live in what has become “Israel” are Palestinian, and the fact that the state forced itself on them gives them the right to identify themselves as they wish , you don’t like it …knock your head against a brick wall.
Michael W.
To both,
Isn’t it fascist to claim one specific culture to a territory that has known many unique cultures that still exist today?
One can’t claim the Jews as foreigners to Palestine when it’s most famous literary contribution to the world came from the Jews millenniums ago? Aren’t Jews culturally connected to this land than to any other?
Dany
Dude, repeating nonsense won’t make it any more credible.
ToivoS
This is crazy talk. Allow the ultraright in to prove to the “people” or in this case the world’ how crazy Israel really is. This is a disease that perpetually afflicts the Left. It is the ‘What we need is a little dose of fascism to awake the people to the danger so they will join the revolution’ theory of politics. We saw how that worked out in Germany in 1932, with the Uruguayan Tupamaros in 1968 and the Argentine Montoneros in the 1970s.
In any case it does look like the ultraright took a mild beating today and that has to be taken as good news.
Shmuel
Stop pretending that fascism is the exclusive property of the right.
History is full of left wing fascists as well. And they are every bit as bad as right wing fascists. Sometimes worse.
Dany
Nonsense. Utterly ahistoric one.
Shmuel
@Danny
“Nonsense. Utterly ahistoric one.”
Don’t be in denial Danny. Think of the Baath party. Both in Iraq and in Syria. They described themselves as socialists and over the years I had many arguments with your fellow leftists who were ardent defenders of both those regimes.
You speak of “ahistoric” but can you honestly say in the light of what we have become aware recently that the Saddam and Assad regimes were/are not fascists?
The Trespasser
As a matter of fact, left wing fascist (commies and such) killed many times more people than right wing fascists.
In Soviet Russia, in Cambodia, in China, in Ethiopia – bloody commies managed to starve to death one of Africa’s most productive countries, even in Palestine – where local population were evicted by Jewish communists and socialists.
Greg Pollock
From what Omar says, and I have been able to gleen from other sources over the years, I think that settlement was a national protection strategy when presence could act as a vanguard against invasion/infiltration at a time when the IDF’s surveillance capacity was not what it is now. Settlement meant national defense meant security. It also meant, to a growing number of new settlers, Torah fulfillment. Now the ideological link on the ground is national defense to security to Torah ideology, with the IDF essentially ignoring settler encroachment of Palestinian Bank residents. But the IDF’s surveillance capacity is now of an entirely different order. In consequence, the defense to Torah ideology link can be framed, within Israel, as dysfunctional. Those voters dislodged from past party alliegence evident in this election may have created political space for serious discussion over settlements and their support. In effect, the IDF has evolved beyond need of settlers.
Kolumn9
Settlements are and always have been a political claim on territory that the military enforces. The territory they allow the state and military to control might be valuable. They in themselves are pretty useless in the case of invasion/infiltration. The national religious ideology assigns value also to territory which might have no military or security value. However, that doesn’t mean that none of the territory it claims has any military or security value (see Allon plan which was entirely free of that ideology).
XYZ
The settlements have immensve value for the IDF…I have heard this directly from secular IDF officers. They keep the roads open, they restrict the areas where terrorits can operate, they give a logistical backing for the IDF and its soldiers.
Michael W.
I’ve also heard from soldiers/family that they are a major pain in the tuches when you have a 1-to-1 guard to settler ratio.
Greg Pollock
I was not aware, XYZ, that living somewhere was an act of terrorism.
Greg Pollock
The issue would be political: are the settlements, and their expansion, essential for security? In itself, there is nothing said about IDF withdrawal. But I suspect you see this as a slippery slope, so want nothing of settler retraction. The question is whether budget austarity will shift ground on this. Actually, you probably don’t have to worry–yet.
Which leaves One State as outcome with PA bantus, at best, policing 1.7 million people, a few of which will be pushed out as, e.g., when they stay out of the area too long.
The Trespasser
>I think that settlement was a national protection strategy when presence could act as a vanguard against invasion/infiltration at a time when the IDF’s surveillance capacity was not what it is now.
The fact that IDF has gained certain technological edge over Arab militants does not mean that such edge would remain permanently.
One could built a fully functional strike or surveillance UAV at home, with materials cost as little as $10k – $15k.
The only hard to get equipment is high quality FLIR cameras, but even with lower grade Chinese equipment freely available one could make wonders.
Heard about the latest operation in Mali? French, with all their top-notch weapons, got their asses kicked by semi-barbaric tribes.
Palestinian
“Your mastery of “Red Herring” attacks is below any criticism”
Coming from someone like you ,its my honor
If Cyprus isnt geographically part of Europe why is it considered a European country ?
Geographically, Australia is in the East ,yet its considered a Western country.These are facts that you are unable to deal with…
Lets imagine ? I know you are fond of fairy tales but lets stick to reality.
The Trespasser
>Lets imagine? I know you are fond of fairy tales but lets stick to reality.
It was you who’ve came up with imaginable Moroccan conquest of France.
See, even in a non-binding anonymous discussion you – Palestinian Arabs – can’t be honest.
Palestinian
My message was Moroccans who are considered Moroccan-French were granted citizenship and were accepted by the French people ,they speak French and live in France.They didnt immigrate to establish a new Arab state in France .
The Trespasser
No.
What you stated was “If a large number of Moroccans immigrated to France against the will of the French people ,massacred French families , took over their properties and established their own culturally Moroccan state in France then no they arent French nor Europeans.”
which is not quite the same as
“Moroccans who are considered Moroccan-French were granted citizenship and were accepted by the French people ,they speak French and live in France.They didnt immigrate to establish a new Arab state in France .”
Both based on false assumptions, ex. it is not clear why Moroccans who acquire citizenship peacefully become Europeans, while those who do it by war won’t become Europeans.
Dany
How does one live a normal everyday life with such mental illness like Tresspisser?
This twitbot is so funny in his senseless struggle.
palestinian
Ziocreatures
Palestinian
The second case isnt an assumption ,its reality ,start dealing with it .
The Trespasser
Ok.
How you would define following:
1 – Moroccans who immigrated to France
2 – French citizens of Breton ethnicity
3 – Moroccans who invaded France and created state of “North Morocco”
4 – Former French citizens of Breton ethnicity who are now citizens of a new state.
Example:
1 – Moroccan French Europeans
Palestinian
1.Immigrants
2.Do they speak French ? Do they consider themselves French ? Have they adopted the French culture ?
3.Where is North Morocco?
4.Where is that new state ?
I’ve never heard of Moroccan French Europeans !
Kiwi
I find it sad and strange that Palestinians insist on THEIR right to define THEMSELVES as a separate nationality of Palestinians rather than as Southern Syrians or Jordanians or the ones who are Israeli citizens as Israelis.
Yet at the same time, they deny the Jewish people the RIGHT to define THEMSELVES as a distinct people.
There is a name to this attitude. It is called “double standard” or some people would call it hypocrisy.
The Trespasser
>It was you who’ve came up with imaginable Moroccan conquest of France.
I’ll keep to Mr. Twain’s advice.
p.s. Your kin lacks even most basic honesty – don’t expect honest treatment.
Palestinian
“It was you who’ve came up with imaginable Moroccan conquest of France”
It was you who stated that.
If you decided to follow Mark Twain’s advice , you wouldnt reply to me,Am I that irresistible ?!
The Trespasser
No. Cuz you are such a liar.
>f a large number of Moroccans immigrated to France against the will of the French people ,massacred French families , took over their properties and established their own culturally Moroccan state in France then no they arent French nor Europeans.
Twain said nothing about refuting lies.
p.s. Ever heard of Samaritans?
Palestinian
What did I lie about ?
Samaritans who decided to stay in Nablus are Palestinians.
The Trespasser
>What did I lie about ?
There >“It was you who’ve came up with imaginable Moroccan conquest of France”
>f a large number of Moroccans immigrated to France against the will of the French people ,massacred French families , took over their properties and established their own culturally Moroccan state in France then no they arent French nor Europeans.
>Samaritans who decided to stay in Nablus are Palestinians.
Non-arab Palestinians, mind you.
Palestinian Samaritans, to be exact.
And those who’ve moved into Israel has became Israeli Samaritans. Pretty much like “Palestinian Arabs” and “Israeli Arabs”
Kapish?
Palestinian
Again what did I lie about ?
““It was you who’ve came up with imaginable Moroccan conquest of France”
You said this.
Palestinian
We were considered part of Bilad Al Sham ,I have no problem with that as it doesnt contradict my Palestinian identity.
I never denied the Jews the right of self-determination ,but not at our expense.
Kiwi
“I never denied the Jews the right of self-determination ,but not at our expense.”
And according to you? ALL of Palestine is holy Arab land earmarked to be ruled ONLY by Palestinians of Arab ethnicity?
By 1948 there were 600,000 Palestinians who were Jewish. Your people wanted to deny those Jewish Palestinians the right to establish their own state in part of Palestine. That was denying Jews the right of self determination.
Palestinian
Do you really consider a group of Europeans, who immigrated to Palestine against the will of the indigenous population ,Palestinians ? really …Kiwi the majority of them immigrated within 2 decades,they had no right to establish their state there.
Michael W.
I would consider them “Palestinian” (though I would prefer to not let the Romans name me) since their culture and heritage is from “Palestine” and they have maintained this heritage like no ancient people ever had.
Palestinian
Since when they have culture ? They were and are Europeans,they have nothing to do with Palestine,Palestinians or the ME .Sorry to disappoint you.
Michael W.
@Palestinian,
Since you don’t know anything about Jewish culture, perhaps you should look it up or ask one of the 972 writers.
Your view is similar to Christian Supersessionism. It has no place in the modern world. Even Catholics have abandoned it. It is time for you to do the same.
Palestinian
There is Jewish culture in the same context of Christian culture or Muslim culture.But I know thats not what you want to believe.
Kiwi
“Do you really consider a group of Europeans, who immigrated to Palestine against the will of the indigenous population”
First, lets nail the facts down. In this sentence you clearly reject the RIGHTS of Jewish Palestinians to have self determination in Palestine.
Now about who is right and who is wrong? Sorry to disappoint you but it isn’t that simple. It is more a case of deciding between TWO RIGHTS with wisdom. A commodity that I am sorry to say, the Arabs lacked in 1948 and they still seem to lack.
Why am I saying that? Because history is full of mass movements of people and new nations being formed. And in the case of the Jews, it wasn’t even a movement to NEW lands. It was a case of RETURN to the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people. As such, they certainly had a claim to at least part of Palestine.
Yes, the Palestinian Arabs had the right to reject the partition in 1947. But was it wise for them to deny another people the right of self determination? A right that they insist on for themselves? The answer is clearly, NO IT WAS NOT WISE. Even Abbas admitted it recently. Why can’t you?
There was and still is enough room in Palestine for both a Jewish and an Arab state.
Palestinian
Jewish Palestinians ? You mean the few thousands of Jewish Palestinians who lived in Palestine ? The Jewish immigrants had and have no right to establish a Jewish state in Palestine.
Kiwi
“Jewish Palestinians ? You mean the few thousands of Jewish Palestinians who lived in Palestine ?”
I mean 33% of the population of Palestine (600,000) who were Jewish by 1948.
Jews had every right to return to their ancestral home land. And they were asserting their rights since the late 1800s. Moreover, they joined fellow Jews who lived there continuously for thousands of years.
Jewish immigration to Palestine was appropriate legally, morally and humanely. No matter how loudly Arabs protest against Jewish rights, it does not negate Jewish rights to return to the land that used to be theirs.
Finally, no matter how consistently and loudly the Arabs assert that they and they alone are the sole owners of all of Palestine, does not make it so.
The Trespasser
>the majority of them immigrated within 2 decades
Yet another lie
Palestinian
I bet poor Twain must be rolling over in his grave.
n = number of Jewish European immigrants/thieves/terrorists
(n 1948- n 1928 ) / n 1948 = ?
Do the math (in case you passed 4th grade mathematics) oh and dont forget to apologize to me
The Trespasser
Oops. My bad.
However there is no reason for me to apologize – if a well-proven liar is accused falsely once it does not make him any less of a liar.
>…Jewish Palestinians?
And what about Jewish Palestinians, by the way. Did not they had a right to live in own Jewish state?
>The Jewish immigrants had and have no right to establish a Jewish state in Palestine.
By what law exactly?
Palestinian
People who come from respectable families apologize when they wrongly accuse people,but since you are a Zionist,ethical behavior isnt expected.
You called me a liar ,what did I lie about ?
If the indigenous population didnt accept the Jewish immigrants then the latter had no right to establish their state there .
The Trespasser
I’m asking whether Jewish Palestinians – not recent migrants – had a right to have own state?
Palestinian
When and where ?
The Trespasser
Where? In Palestine of course.
When? Sometime during Jewish history in Palestine.
Palestinian
Where in Palestine ? You cant decided to establish your state on someone else’s land.
Jewish Palestinians were a tiny minority.
When did Jewish Palestinians call for their own state ?
Palestinian
decide*
The Trespasser
I see.
So basically you claim that:
1 – Palestinian Jews did not have a right to create own state because they were minority.
and
2 – They also had no right to increase their number by immigration.
Did I get you right?
Palestinian
People dont have the right to establish their own state on someone else’s land.Jewish Palestinians didnt ask for a Jewish state and didnt contact Herzl to increase their number.
The Trespasser
Ok.
And one last question
For how many generations should someone legally reside in Palestine to become Palestinian?
palestinian
Till he/she becomes Palestinian.If a person spends his life at school without attending classes ,reading , writing,interacting with students and teachers and passing exams then he/she isnt a student.
The Trespasser
So what does it take to become a Palestinian?
Is there a list?
Palestinian
One word :intermingling
Michael W.
@Palestinian,
They tried to intermingle but they were barred from residing in Yaffo. That’s why Tel-Aviv was created. And how can the Jews expect to even be a second-class citizen when most Arabs are second-class citizens via Arab kings and dictators?
Palestinian
They were planning to take over the land ,to establish their dream!
“To build up something in Palestine which will be as Jewish as England is English.” And today its clear what they were planning for.
Michael W.
@Palestinian,
How should have these “Europeans”/Jews asked the Palestinians on whether they can move to Palestine?
Palestinian
Just like those who immigrated in the 70s of the 19th century.
Michael W.
And how did they get that permission?
Palestinian
I dont think they took permission from the indigenous population since the whole region was under the Ottoman rule.When a small number of peaceful people move to my neighborhood then I have no worries ,but if thousands of people with agenda start flooding my neighborhood to take over it then its gonna be a real problem.
The Trespasser
>but if thousands of people with agenda start flooding my neighborhood to take over it then its gonna be a real problem.
Because you are a racist.
palestinian
Says who ? a creature who lives in and defends a racism state? How ironic
palestinian
racist*
The Trespasser
>Says who ? a creature …
Keep it on.
rick
In the arguments about identity, rights to the land, and history, one item is left out that is the most important: Empire. N. Ireland, the U.S., S. Africa, and other places were created by an Empire using force to impose their will on indigenous peoples. The Empire often uses persecuted minorities to cut a deal for them to police the population and rewards them with land, guns, and priviledged rights. Israel was created by Brit Empire and now sustained by U.S. Empire. Israelis will not submit to equality and give up their privilege to kill and steal land. You don’t need DNA to understand that.
The Trespasser
I see.
So to summarize your point of view:
Palestine inherently belongs to Arabs, only Arabs and no-one but Arabs, so other nations, native to this land are obliged to live in an Arab state and eventually become Arabs, while other people have no right to take even one inch of holy Palestinian land.
How perfectly racist.
You see, the only problem is that no-one wants to live in an Arab state or, G-d forbid, to became an Arab, simply because there is no even theoretically possible benefits.
Culture stagnated for 500 years is hardly a worthy reason.
Palestinian
Obviously your brain isnt capable of comprehending the word intermingling .
When you immigrate to any country ,you become a citizen of that country,you are expected to conform to the society you join not rebel against the indigenous population , massacre them ,steal their land and establish your own nation state.
What nations are native to Palestine ?
The Trespasser
>When you immigrate to any country
Exactly. But there never was, is not and Inshallah won’t ever be a country of Palestine, which means that your logic is faulty from the very beginning.
>What nations are native to Palestine ?
Jews, Arabs, Samaritans, Circassians, Armenians.
Palestinian
The fact Palestine wasnt an officially recognized country doesnt give a group of thieves from Europe the right to establish their state there with the help of other thieves.
Check “native Americans”, you will discover Jews born to immigrants in Palestine arent and will never be native to Palestine.The difference between ethnic minority immigrants to Palestine on one hand and the Jewish immigrants on the other hand is that the former groups were welcomed by the indigenous population ,they never tried to bring more of their people to replace us ,on the contrary to the ungrateful Zio-creatures who flooded our land and stabbed us in the back (as usual).
The Trespasser
>The fact Palestine wasnt an officially recognized country …
Than you should’ve written
“When you immigrate to any territory ,you become a citizen of that territory” which is obvious nonsense.
>Jews born to immigrants in Palestine arent and will never be native to Palestine
By you logic Arabs born to Arab immigrants in Palestine are not and will never be native to Palestine, which is exactly what I’m claiming.
I realize now why it’s fun arguing with stupid people.
>The difference between ethnic minority immigrants to Palestine on one hand
Arabs now are “ethnic minority migrants”. xD
>and the Jewish immigrants on the other hand is that the former groups were welcomed by the indigenous population
Lie.
>they never tried to bring more of their people to replace us
No. They just raped your mothers.
>on the contrary to the ungrateful
Grateful? For not exterminating all Jews when you’ve had a chance?
>Zio-creatures
xD xD
Now I’m grateful. Thank you for supplying me with yet another bit of proof.
>who flooded our land
Lie. You rejected peace when Jews comprised mere 1/10 population.
>and stabbed us in the back (as usual).
As a matter of fact, you had stabbed your own backs, shoot your own feet and did whatever else you could only imagine to make yourselves outlaws.
I’m not aware of any other single “nation” which for nearly a century declines offers of statehood.
Maybe it’s because “Palestinians” are not a nation, no matter how hard you are trying to prove it?
Palestinian
When you immigrate to any territory you have to respect the indigenous population.
I can easily prove the vast majority of Jews in Palestine are either immigrants (30%) or 2nd and 3rd generations ,can you do the same ? Palestinian Arabs aren’t an ethnic group.
The Armenians weren’t welcomed in Palestine ?
Raped our mothers ? Your twiseted mind again ?
Exterminating the Jews ? back to victim-playing ?
You didn’t offer peace ,you wanted to steal our land,and you did.
We didn’t import thieves from Europe .
The Trespasser
>Palestinian Arabs aren’t an ethnic group.
Hilarious.
Well, in a sense you are right. But you certainly ain’t gonna like it, so I’ll keep it to myself for meanwhile.
The Trespasser
>We didn’t import thieves from Europe
No. You are thieves imported from Arabia.
Palestinian
Prove it.
The Trespasser
To prove you that you are thief, child of thief and grandchild of thief?
I bet that you know your own family history much better than I do and that you’ll easily find relevant examples.
Here, have a look – http://sesame.library.yale.edu/fedoragsearch/ameelview?pid=agaz:41126&size=1&fgsquery=
Maybe you’ll find some familiar names.
Palestinian
You gave me a list of names of people who were sentenced under the British occupation ,which proves we were there before the vast majority of Jewish thieves set foot in Palestine.So now I’m confused , are you dumb or playing dumb ?
The Trespasser
At the time Jews comprised 10-12% of Palestine population, which means that they were supposed to commit 10-12% of crimes.
However there is none.
I suppose it were Brits who covered up for Jews and blamed innocent Arabs instead.
rick
you incorrectly summarize my point. Anyone should be able to live anywhere. I don’t buy “God the real estate agent” from anyone. I was referring to the Brits bringing in Askenazi Jews to colonize Palestine from indigenous Arabs. It is the political oppression from the Israeli state that is objectional, not the Jewish identity of Israelis who may carry out its policies. It is the political ideology of Zionism that dictates that only Jews can have certain rights in Israel that is unacceptable and against international law. Jews or Chinese or Palestinian Arabs should be able to live anywhere with equal rights- that is the only solution: real democracy, not “formal” democracy with de jure segregation and land theft from Pal. only for the advantage of Jewish Israelis. For example, the demolition of over 24,000 Pal. homes since 1967 and the ongoing confiscation of Palestinian owned land in huge volume. The entire occupation is the act of a racist regime. If these acts were committed against Jews in 1% proportion you and I would be correctly outraged as well.
The Trespasser
Rick,
My previous post (with summary) was not a reply to yours, but to Palestinian’s.
>N. Ireland, the U.S., S. Africa, and other places were created by an Empire using force to impose their will on indigenous peoples.
Actually, a great most of modern countries were created by imposing will of more advanced/stronger nations onto less advances/weaker.
When exactly did this became wrong?
>Israel was created by Brit Empire
Not truth.
>and now sustained by U.S. Empire.
Not truth either.
>Israelis will not submit to equality and give up their privilege to kill and steal land.
Since the state of Israel became reality mostly because Arabs has denied all and any equality with Jews, I see no reason why the situation has to be changed now.
>Anyone should be able to live anywhere.
Theoretically – yes.
Practically … not quite. Ever tried to travel to Mecca? Or Medina?
>I was referring to the Brits bringing in Askenazi Jews to colonize Palestine from indigenous Arabs.
Brits never “brought in” Ashkenazi Jews.
>It is the political oppression from the Israeli state that is objectional, not the Jewish identity of Israelis who may carry out its policies.
For our Palestinian friend from this topic it is the very Jewish identity what is objectionable. Why won’t you ask him to actually recognize existence of Jewish people and accept fact that there is no difference between American, Arab of Chinese Jew.
>It is the political ideology of Zionism that dictates that only Jews can have certain rights in Israel that is unacceptable and against international law.
Political ideology of modern Zionism is a direct result of Arab hostility.
>Jews or Chinese or Palestinian Arabs should be able to live anywhere with equal rights – that is the only solution:
A strongly suggest you read the entire discussion. Especially part where Palestinian Arab denies Jews all and any rights to live in their homeland.
>real democracy, not “formal”
Real democracy is only possible when ALL or at least MOST members of certain society share democratic values. Certainly not the case with Arab societies.
>only for the advantage of Jewish Israelis.
Palestinian Arabs openly and clearly declare themselves as enemies of the Jewish state and Jewish people.
>The entire occupation is the act of a racist regime.
No.
>If these acts were committed against Jews in 1% proportion you and I would be correctly outraged as well.
Hmmm. Let’s imagine following:
In 1948 Arabs accepted partition plan and declared a state, while Jews refused, declared war on Arabs, lost that war, denied to accept statehood for 3 more times and still live under Arab military rule.
Who would you blame then?
Kiwi
“doesnt give a group of thieves from Europe”
Asserting that someone is a thief, does not make that someone a thief. If assert that you are a thief, does that make you a thief?
Asserting that all of Palestine belongs to Arabs, does not make it so.
FACT: Jews had an independent Jewish kingdom hundreds of years before the Arabs even set foot in Palestine.
FACT: Jews had the right to return and claim part of the land that was once theirs.
FACT: You can kick, scream and spew insults about how wrong the above facts are but no matter how loudly and frequently you will do so, it won’t make you right.
Palestinian
When you take something that isnt yours ,its called stealing and you are a thief.
Fact: Being an Arab doesnt mean you come from Saudia Arabia.
Fact: Jews werent the first and wont be the last to inhabit the land.
Fact :European Jews arent from the region.
Kiwi
“When you take something that isnt yours ,its called stealing and you are a thief.”
When you assert that something is ALL yours, it does not mean that it is so.
“Fact: Being an Arab doesnt mean you come from Saudia Arabia.”
FACT: It does not matter. I DON’T claim that Palestinian Arabs have no rights. I claim that you are not the ONLY ones who have a rights.
“Fact: Jews werent the first and wont be the last to inhabit the land.”
FACT: Again it does not matter. Jews DID inhabit the land 2000 thousand years ago and before. There was a Jewish kingdom in the land that you call Palestine. So Jews have the right to reclaim at least part of the land that was stolen from them.
“Fact :European Jews arent from the region.”
FACT: But they are descendants of people who were.
The Trespasser
>Fact: Being an Arab doesnt mean you come from Saudia Arabia.
As a matter of fact, being Arab means that your father is Arab, and his father was Arab as well and one of you ancestors certainly was riding camels in Arabian desert.
There is no other way of becoming an Arab other then being born to an Arab father. Technically.
Palestinian
Why Lebanon is inhabited by the Lebanese not the Chinese ?
Being a Jew doesnt give you the right to steal the land that was once inhabited by Jews.
I am not interested in your mythology books.
European Jews arent descendants of the Jews who lived here once.It is true Ashkenazi have enough resources to fabricate scientific studies but it wont change their DNA.
The Trespasser
>Being a Jew doesnt give you the right to steal the land that was once inhabited by Jews.
xDxD
Being an Arab doesnt give you the right to steal the land that was once inhabited by Jews.
Palestinian
Which was inhabited by non-Jews for thousands of years before those Jews stole it.And Jews can be Arabs.
The Trespasser
>Which was inhabited by non-Jews for thousands of years before those Jews stole it.
Yes, cap. Your point being?
>And Jews can be Arabs.
An Arab could became a Jew, but a Jew could not became an Arab.
It’s technically impossible.
Arieh
“And Jews can be Arabs.”
Yet when Jews lived amongst Arabs as a minority they were not always treated as equals.
Jews were subject to periodic pogroms, persecution and humiliation.
So it seems that Jews are better off being Jews in their own state.
Kiwi
““And Jews can be Arabs.”
But Arabs can’t be Israelis? Isn’t that what you claimed in the beginning of this discussion?
A real curious attitude. Rules should apply only to Jews but not to Arabs, so says Palestinian.
Many nationalities owned Palestine but only Arab ownership to it should be recognised, so says Palestinian.
Both Jews and Arabs lived in Palestine in 1948, but ALL the land belonged ONLY to Arabs, so says Palestinian.
Any wonder that there is no seeming solution to this conflict?
Kiwi
Here, read about the genetics of Ashkenazi Jews:
“A 2001 study by Nebel et al. showed that both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish populations share the same overall paternal Near Eastern ancestries.”
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
Palestinian
Banana,it seems you missed the word “fabricate”
Kiwi
Fabricate? That is another assertion. Making an assertion does not make it true.
By the way, I have been trying to publish archeological evidence (I provided links) which confirm a historical Jewish kingdom in the land that you call Palestine but it seems that the censors of this site are not keen to publish it.
One has to wonder why? Is it because they are in denial? It won’t make the truth go away.
Lets see if they publish this post at least.
The Trespasser
Oh cmon.
You’ve fabricated the story that Muhammad ever traveled to Jerusalem, and had stolen entire city on totally fictional basis, you are really not in position to complain about “fabrication” of whatever.
Kiwi
Anyone interested in what I have to say can go to this link:
http://972mag.com/live-blog-israeli-elections-2013/64466/
Palestinian
Arieh ,lets assume your claims are true ,how do they justify the massacres and land theft in Palestine ?
I think Ella Shohat “Reflections by an Arab Jew” disagrees with you.
Kiwi: Palestinians who hold the Israeli passport are legally Israelis but some of them refuse to identify with the Israeli national identity ,Israel doesn’t represent them .
By 1948,the majority of Jews in Palestine were new immigrants and had no right to decide fate of Palestine.I will be more than happy to discuss land ownership.
Trespasser : I have never used religious beliefs/myths to support my arguments .
I’m enjoying this foursome hasbara party.
The Trespasser
>I have never used religious beliefs/myths to support my arguments.
But a great most of you fellow Palestinian Arabs do it on daily basis. I suppose you guys have to make up your mind.
By the way, you wouldn’t mind if Israel would disassemble Masjid Qubbat As-Sakhrah and al-Masjid al-Aqsa and elect Jewish temple there, would you?
Arieh
“Arieh ,lets assume your claims are true”
They are true.
“how do they justify the massacres”
I don’t justify massacres of Arabs by Jews. Do you justify massacres of Jews by Arabs?
“and land theft in Palestine ?”
I agree with Kiwi. For theft to take place, you have to own the land. The Arabs did not own all the lands. The Jews owned some of the land and the Jews had the right to return to the place where they once owned all the land.
“I think Ella Shohat “Reflections by an Arab Jew” disagrees with you.”
She is welcome to disagree. I never claimed that Arabs mistreated all Jews all the time. I said that throughout history, Arabs carried out periodic pogroms against Jews and they persecuted and humiliated Jews from time to time.
Here are a couple of references:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews
“The Caliph of Baghdad, al-Muqtadi [1075-1094], had given power to his vizier, Abu Shuja, [who] imposed that each male Jew should wear a yellow badge on his headgear. This was one distinctive sign on the head and the other was on the neck- a piece of lead of the weight of a silver dinar hanging round the neck of every Jew”
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world
“For example, there were numerous incidents of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews in North Africa,[8] especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos.[9] “
Palestinian
Many Palestinians dont including myself ,unlike the majority of Israelis (including your PM) who repeat fairy tales over and over .The same broken record!
Why would anybody disassemble a magnificent piece of art thats known worldwide ? Only fanatics think this way .Plus you wont be able to sell postcards and advertise for tourism.
The Trespasser
>Many Palestinians dont including myself
Many – is how many exactly?
The fact is that majority of Palestinian Arabs are Muslims, and as such they are supposed to believe that Jerusalem is the 3rd holiest site in Islam, which is seen as a sufficient basis to deny Jews their right of self determination.
But you are claiming that actually there is some spherical Palestinian Arabs in vacuum, which do not think so.
Well, sufficient is that your fathers thought that Jews can’t bring benches near the Western Wall.
>unlike the majority of Israelis
A blatant lie.
As recent elections had clearly shown religious Jews comprise only about 30% of Israeli society.
>who repeat fairy tales over and over. The same broken record!
Yeah, every time the same record – “Jews have right to have their home land in Israel/Syria Palestina/Judea/Canaan”
It’s not a fairy tale, pal. It’s a grim reality. The sooner you learn to live with it, the happier be your life.
>Why would anybody disassemble a magnificent piece of art thats known worldwide? Only fanatics think this way.
Actually, you are right. Masjid Qubbat As-Sakhrah must be saved. Jewish temple should be built around and above it.
Also, it would cover from a possible missile from one of neighboring countries.
However al-Masjid al-Aqsa must go – it’s not even nearly as magnificent as the Dome of the Rock.
>Plus you wont be able to sell postcards and advertise for tourism.
Unfortunately, neither masjid Qubbat As-Sakhrah nor al-Masjid al-Aqsa are listed as preferable Hajj destinations.
Palestinian
How many ? sorry I forgot to count them ,next time inshallah
You don’t have to be a religious Jew to enternain goyim with myths and fairy tales.
Do you want a Jewish homeland ? Have it somewhere else.
There is no need to build anything around or above Quabt Al Sakhra .Its beautiful as it is ,maybe when they decide to allow dirty rats in, you can enjoy it yourself .
I noticed Dome of the Rock is used in your advertisements, lets be honest tourists don’t really care about scraps of paper inside a rusty wall ,right
The Trespasser
>next time inshallah
>You don’t have to be a religious Jew to enternain goyim with myths and fairy tales.
Funny that you used that phrase – “Inhallah” – which comes from religion which is entirely based on Jewish myths.
You really should decide – either Jewish myths are myths which makes Christianity and Islam illegitimate, or Christianity and Islam are legitimate and Jewish myths ain’t myths.
>Do you want a Jewish homeland ? >Have it somewhere else.
It happens to be right here, dude.
>maybe when they decide to allow dirty rats in, you can enjoy it yourself .
And now you are trying to insult rats, comparing them to Jews. Ain’t you a one sweet racist.
>I noticed Dome of the Rock is used in your advertisements
A beautiful Jewish Temple would take it’s place nicely.
It’s good to refresh brand once a while, you know.
>lets be honest tourists don’t really care about scraps of paper inside a rusty wall, right
You are funny. Wrong.
Palestinian
Muslim,Christian,Jewish and atheist Arabs say Inshallah ,and don’t argue .
If Israel is a Jewish state then why Israel is insisting that Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state ? Where is your self-confidence ?
Jews can be anti-Zionist and Zionists can be non-Jewish ,I would never insult Amira Hass or Ilan Pappe.
Why do you use Dome of the Rock in your advertisements? Oh because its beautiful and it attracts tourists = money
Why would non-Jews care about scraps of paper inside a rusty wall ? Maybe a synagogue but not that wall.
To be continued later …..Au revoir
The Trespasser
>Muslim,Christian,Jewish and atheist Arabs say Inshallah ,and don’t argue
Muslim,Christian,Jewish and atheist Arabs also say “f**k y*u”, and much more often than that say Inshallah.
So what?
>If Israel is a Jewish state then why Israel is insisting that Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state?
Actually, Israel is not insisting. It merely claims that if Palestinian Arabs won’t stop trying to destroy Israel, Israelis will have to persecute them.
>Why do you use Dome of the Rock in your advertisements? Oh because its beautiful and it attracts tourists = money
1 – It is an ugly symbol of occupation.
2 – It would be not correct to remove it by Photoshop, since it’s there. For a meanwhile.
3 – It attracts 0 (zero) tourists.
>Why would non-Jews care about scraps of paper inside a rusty wall?
You should add this question to the list of things which are outside of your scope of knowledge. Some are destined to remain ignorant.
>Maybe a synagogue but not that wall.
Just for the sake of experiment – what exactly wrong with that wall?
Palestinian
No no no ,don’t be rude ,I’m really worried about your mental health , don’t let anger consume you ,FYI usually when Arabs swear they don’t use the F word.
Israel does insist on that , you just need to get over it.
I think Dome of the Rock is a symbol of your so-called “tolerance” (lol).
Photoshop? Isnt that what your IDF rabbinate did ? Be original
Zero ? Dont hold your breath http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g293983-d318203-r129495564-Temple_Mount-Jerusalem_Jerusalem_District.html and read the review carefully
How about painting that wall with blue and white (or warm colors) ? Maybe it will start getting people’s attention .
The Trespasser
>FYI usually when Arabs swear they don’t use the F word.
Apparently I’ve meet more Arabs in my life than you did.
>Israel does insist on that
Proof?
>Dont hold your breath http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g293983-d318203-r129495564-Temple_Mount-Jerusalem_Jerusalem_District.html and read the review carefully
You are really funny.
“Ranked #23 of 139 attractions in Jerusalem”
It is the largest building in Jerusalem, only one covered with pure gold, yet it does not even made it to the top 20.
>Maybe it will start getting people’s attention.
There is obvious benefits of being renowned idiot – even most idiotic claims might remain undisputed.
By the way, did you happen to read “Good Soldier Švejk”?
Palestinian
Apparently you mistook Israeli thugs for Palestinians.
Proofs: http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-statehood-doesnt-threaten-israel-but-the-stalled-peace-process-might-internal-foreign-ministry-report-says/
http://www.france24.com/en/20130122-israels-netanyahu-faces-coalition-challenge
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-only-when-palestinians-recognize-israel-as-a-jewish-state-will-they-be-ready-for-peace-1.320665
You claimed that DOR attracts “zero” tourists ,yet our guy there said and I quote “Be prepared for a loooong queue and a longer wait to get inside the Dome of the Rock” .Open your dictionary and look up “queue”.
I feel like I’m dealing with an imbecile ,lucky me.
The Trespasser
>“Be prepared for a loooong queue and a longer wait to get inside the Dome of the Rock
Hmm.
But there is a contradiction:
>You cannot go inside the mosque unless you are a muslim…
Isn’t it a bit racist to deny access to a stolen holy place?
Palestinian
That wasnt what you claimed earlier .You claimed that DOR attracts zero tourists and I proved you were wrong ( as usual).Face your lies
The Trespasser
What I initially claimed is that tasteless DoR could be easily replaced or upgraded by a magnificent Jewish temple, and you should not object that – after all the purpose of this building is based on myths, which should not affect modern reality – by your logic.
Palestinian
Didnt you claim that DOR attracts “zero” tourists ? yes or no
The Trespasser
Alleged touristic value of DoR has nothing to do with the fact that it located on stolen Jewish land.
Palestinian
Let me repeat the question “Didnt you claim that DOR attracts “zero” tourists ? yes or no
The Trespasser
Why would you insist on repeating an off-topic question?
Michael W.
@TheTrespasser,
I personally do not want the Temple rebuilt because then many of the orthodox/haredi Jews will go crazy and start practicing Temple-era Judaism.
However, it would be nice for the Muslims to stop throwing rocks from the Temple Mount, and open it to worship to all Avrahamic faiths.
I suggest that the DotR should be managed like Cathedrals are today.
And the al-Aqsa mosque can be managed like it is today because I don’t think infidels like myself care about visiting it.
The Trespasser
Michael,
Technically, it wouldn’t cost more than 100 000 NIS to built a proper Jewish temple – it is not done so solely because it could only be built by Messiah, accordingly to mainstream Judaism.
DotR certainly must be opened to the wide public – Muslims have no right whatsoever to have any kind of sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem. I was inside once, back in 1990′s, with my foreign passport of course – no Jews and no dogs are allowed inside.
As of Al-Aqsa – for me it is a totally unacceptable situation, where Muslims can freely enter Jewish and Christian shrines, churches and synagogues, while the opposite is not quite so.
Muslims must change their rules of conduct – or face consequences of their racism, as basic fairness demands.
Palestinian
Because you refuse to admit that you lied.