18 comments for ”Zombie threat: Rebuttal of the arguments against 67 borders“

    
  1. We, the Israeli people, chose a right wing president. Get a break. Next one is Liberman.

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  3. I think you forgot the fact that the movie claims Israel was given a right for new defensible borders. A claim that is simply not true.
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    Time to learn peace brings secure borders not weapons.

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  5. Even if all of this was true, it hardly justifies the settlements and the resulting confiscation of Arab land and water. The arguments of the “security right” have to be separated from those of the “settlement right.” The ultimate issue concerning “The Occupation” is human rights and that is just what the Palestinian Arabs are denied, in every sort of unjust way.

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  7. ARTH, you have a valid point, that clashes with the national and human rights of the Jewish people in Israel.
    Would you suggest that they commit suicide, or simply leave for greener pastures earlier?
    Are you denying the fact that the hostilities started before the ’67 war, indeed before ’48? Or that no Palestinian leader has recognized Israel’s right to exist as the embodiment of a Jewish Home?
    In Netanyahu’s views, returning to the pre-’67 situation makes no sense, as it’ll simply invite a new aggression: what do you know to fault him?

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  9. Although the movie has its flaws, this rebuttal is as flawed. Answering your points:

    1967 – Your point (that Israel’s attack was the first attack) actually support the need for defensible border. Israel attacked first in 1967 *because* of its indefensible borders. Most Israelis believe that if Israel had not attacked first the war would have taken longer, with many more dead and Israel existence put in danger. Defensible borders will provide more strategic depth and stability and will reduce the need of attacks like the one in 1967.

    Jordan rift valley – So what if right now there is no threat coming from Jordan. Do you know the future? Do you know what will happen in Iran, Iraq and with the Hashemic kingdom? Are you seriously saying that Israeli presence in the Jordan river can do nothing to reduce the amount of smuggling and terror in case there will be such in the future? How can you tell now what technologies can be used in the future to be applied in such situations? I’m sorry, but your claim as if IDF presence in the Jordan river makes no difference on the security of Israel makes no sense to me.

    The mountain ridge – I don’t see how you go from “Israeli control on key points of the mountain ridge and the Jordan valley” to “There is no room left for a Palestinian state”. Can’t you do the necessary land swaps so there will be enough room?

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  11. The settlement maze is more exposed than Netanyahu’s quote of nine miles, because it is a maze.

    The next logical assertion (as occurs in an expansions), is that only a rectangle (river to sea) is defensible.

    But, that belies the fact that security is constructed of two concerns: good relations with neighbors and military defensibility.

    Netanyahu seems to apply that thinking in 80/20 terms, 80% defensibility, 20% good relations.

    The reality of successful security is the opposite proportion, 80% good relations, 20% defensibility.

    In the stock market, those that invest by emotion (greed and/or fear are the two), lose. When the masses get to recognize that a trend exists that they can join, its usually close to passing or already passed. And, that the trend itself, the groupthink, creates its own demise.

    The Netanyahu campaigns in the US this week appealed to “reasoning by emotion”.

    Success becomes dangerous.

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  13. “The settlement maze is more exposed than Netanyahu’s quote of nine miles, because it is a maze.”
    That’s why Netanyahu said that only the large blocks will stay within Israel, so your next sentence is irrelevant
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    80/20 – I wonder where you got these figures from, but again your details are besides the point: based on his view of historical reality, Netanyahu concludes that exposing his neck today risks resulting not in good relationship but losing his neck. I haven’t see you challenging his reasoning.

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  15. Netanyahu hasn’t said anything specific, which is a big part of the problem.

    We are left with the question “do I trust Netanyahu?” or “do I trust Israel?” to manifest a clear and consented peace?

    The settlement maze is what we’ve got now. Even the large settlement blocs extend deep in the West Bank, and in peninsula (exposed).

    I don’t know what would be the least exposed border, but the settlement blocs are.

    Again, that leaves the continued expansion to a rectangle as the only possible “defensible” border, which would require extended gross isolation of Israel, even among those that see parts of Netanyahu’s logic.

    The significance of the combination of defensibility combined with constructed good relations (a controllable/creatable result of determined actions), is that security really is constructed of the two, and relying much more on good relations than on military defensibility.

    I’m not sure if that is possible, was ever possible, or whether it was ruined as a prospect by 2006 and 2008/9.

    The course of the river needs to be changed, intentionally and well-designed. The currently channeled paths lead to oblivion.

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  17. I love this “Netanyahu hasn’t said anything specific”
    What did the Palestinian side say? They haven’t even acknowledged Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state (Netanyahu provided the parallel), so talks about this or that exact line are quite premature at this stage.

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  19. Dear Max:
    I deny nothing.
    I suggest that you read what I wrote more carefully and not through the prism of your ideological projections upon me.
    AR.

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  21. Arth, I re-read and you’re right: I apologize.

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  23. The PA very clearly has accepted Israel’s right to exist as Israel, and implemented many features to accomplish that, including prosecution of terrorist activity directed at Israel, convincing the Al Aqsa Martyrs to hand in their weapons.

    The PA had submitted a specific proposal to the Netanyahu regime, which the Israelis refused to even open.

    Its not really a good faith approach. It is not called on the carpet largely because of the gullibility and actually disinterest of the American Congress.

    Rather than acknowledge that the PA did submit a specific proposal to further negotiations, the story of their supposed reluctance to negotiate is spun and believed.

    If peace is a valid goal, then why not pursue it in earnest?

    Why not initiate a 5-year settlement construction moratorium, in fact? And test what occurs. Five years is a short period.

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  25. First off, your analysis is moot because you continue to repeat the mantra of “67 borders.” There is no such thing as 67 borders. Obama, the PLO, the UN, Israel, EU, have never ever said anything about “67 borders.” Read Obama’s transcripts, nothing about “borders.”

    It was an ARMSTICE LINE. Obama is insisting Israel dramatic territorial concessions even though each other Israel has withdrawn it has not brought peace but more violence and instability.

    The Palestinians don’t have a plan of self-government. Abbas was elected to a 4 year term yet he is in his 7th. Fayyad isn’t even an elected official. The PNA is totally reliant on foreign aid to survive. Hamas rules Gaza and totally rejects Israel as a state.

    I mean…really, what more can Israel do? How about the Palestinians compromise for a change.

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  29. I am glad to see that Roi has decided to share his expensive military experience in order to elucidate us on the question of the 67′ borders… Oh, wait, he doesn’t have any.

    A) 67 war – Roi is missing the point. Israel was safe _because_ it attacked first. Unfortunately, this is not a luxury one can always rely on. If this was like the 73 war, Israel would not have had the backward defensive lines it had back then and would not exist.

    B) Jordan rift valley – the existence of other avenues of attack does not mean we have to leave one open, no more than the ability to break windows means we have to always leave the door open.

    C) The mountain ridge – if Roi had followed his argument he’d have to reject this too. After all, sooner or later some Palestinian would be able to fire _one_ rocket out of the WB. At which point Roi (consistently) would point out that Israel could not completely cover the WB. Since Israel can’t ever guarantee itself 100%, per Roi we have to reject the 99% alternative…

    D) Arteries of Transportation – this misstates the argument significantly. See for example [1] for what is being talked about.

    [1] http://www.acpr.org.il/publications/books/06-Zero-steinitz.pdf

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  31. In retrospect, this was far too personal from me and I apologize. Nevertheless, you wouldn’t fall into my classification as a military expert.



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