Comments on: The Wall, 10 years on / part 4: Trapped on the wrong side http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Sat, 25 May 2013 23:31:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: RichardL http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/comment-page-1/#comment-58219 RichardL Tue, 24 Apr 2012 18:14:29 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=42820#comment-58219 Coming late to this piece and may have missed the bus, but can I just get it clear what Kolumn9 is telling us. Am I right in deducing that you are saying:   1) That the suicide bombings started in a vacuum. That is to say in no way were they a response to the illegal seizure of East Jerusalem, or the illegal settlement project which has been expanding continuously (and steadily eroding the Palestinian West Bank) since the establishment of Kfar Etzion in October 1967 i.e. decades before the wall was even thought of? 2) That Israel’s non-compliance with Oslo with regard to such matters as the release of prisoners, settlement freeze and of course no permanent status agreement and no Palestinian state seven years after the Accords was in no way connected with the anger generally felt throughout the occupied Palestinian territories prior to the start of the second intifada? 3) That Arial Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount and the brutal police reaction was not a provocation to the Palestinians and is irrelevant to your explanations? 4) That the period between this visit in September 2000 and the start of the suicide bombings in following year, during which time the army defied its own Prime Minister and went rampant amongst the civilian Palestinian population, has no bearing on the start of the Palestinian terror campaign? 5) And also when you say “now thousands of Palestinians are getting through to work in Israel” are you inferring that the illegal settlements in Palestinian territory are somehow part of Israel?   Perhaps you could also explain why you wrote” large Israeli settlement blocks that had to be defended by Israel” since I had always understood part of the raison d’etre of the settlements was that they defended the state of Israel and not vice versa.  In fact how is it that you cannot understand that if you violently oppress a people for more than three decades, steal their land, water and resources, violate their holiest site in the region and then let your army run amok against their population that you are in fact the aggressor and not the innocent victim of the brutal violence that ensues? How come you never once refer to a dead Palestinian in the whole of your lengthy pieces here? Do they never enter your consciousness at all? Coming late to this piece and may have missed the bus, but can I just get it clear what Kolumn9 is telling us. Am I right in deducing that you are saying:
 
1) That the suicide bombings started in a vacuum. That is to say in no way were they a response to the illegal seizure of East Jerusalem, or the illegal settlement project which has been expanding continuously (and steadily eroding the Palestinian West Bank) since the establishment of Kfar Etzion in October 1967 i.e. decades before the wall was even thought of?
2) That Israel’s non-compliance with Oslo with regard to such matters as the release of prisoners, settlement freeze and of course no permanent status agreement and no Palestinian state seven years after the Accords was in no way connected with the anger generally felt throughout the occupied Palestinian territories prior to the start of the second intifada?
3) That Arial Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount and the brutal police reaction was not a provocation to the Palestinians and is irrelevant to your explanations?
4) That the period between this visit in September 2000 and the start of the suicide bombings in following year, during which time the army defied its own Prime Minister and went rampant amongst the civilian Palestinian population, has no bearing on the start of the Palestinian terror campaign?
5) And also when you say “now thousands of Palestinians are getting through to work in Israel” are you inferring that the illegal settlements in Palestinian territory are somehow part of Israel?
 
Perhaps you could also explain why you wrote” large Israeli settlement blocks that had to be defended by Israel” since I had always understood part of the raison d’etre of the settlements was that they defended the state of Israel and not vice versa. 
In fact how is it that you cannot understand that if you violently oppress a people for more than three decades, steal their land, water and resources, violate their holiest site in the region and then let your army run amok against their population that you are in fact the aggressor and not the innocent victim of the brutal violence that ensues? How come you never once refer to a dead Palestinian in the whole of your lengthy pieces here? Do they never enter your consciousness at all?

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/comment-page-1/#comment-58031 Kolumn9 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:25:07 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=42820#comment-58031 @TOJ, The wall is protecting Israel and Israeli civilians from Palestinian suicide bombers originating in the areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian villages inside the wall are there because they are very close to Jewish settlements which the wall is protecting. The number of Palestinians inside the wall is 35,000. The number of Palestinians outside the wall is 2M+. The 35,000 Palestinians inside the wall must go through security as if they are entering Israel. So, yeah, the bigger picture is that the wall was built to protect Israelis. . @Aresteides, The old Sharon would have never built the wall or removed settlements from anywhere in the West Bank. Sharon changed when he became prime minister. @TOJ, The wall is protecting Israel and Israeli civilians from Palestinian suicide bombers originating in the areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian villages inside the wall are there because they are very close to Jewish settlements which the wall is protecting. The number of Palestinians inside the wall is 35,000. The number of Palestinians outside the wall is 2M+. The 35,000 Palestinians inside the wall must go through security as if they are entering Israel. So, yeah, the bigger picture is that the wall was built to protect Israelis.
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@Aresteides, The old Sharon would have never built the wall or removed settlements from anywhere in the West Bank. Sharon changed when he became prime minister.

]]> By: aristeides http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/comment-page-1/#comment-58021 aristeides Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:28:16 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=42820#comment-58021 Greg Pollack - Sharon was the arch-architect of the settlements, that was his primary motive all along. Greg Pollack – Sharon was the arch-architect of the settlements, that was his primary motive all along.

]]> By: the other joe http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/comment-page-1/#comment-57978 the other joe Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:50:30 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=42820#comment-57978 I'm sorry, I must be missing a memo: these villages are inside the wall. How is the wall then protecting Israel from the Palestinian inhabitants of those villages? I’m sorry, I must be missing a memo: these villages are inside the wall. How is the wall then protecting Israel from the Palestinian inhabitants of those villages?

]]> By: max http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/comment-page-1/#comment-57964 max Mon, 23 Apr 2012 09:36:38 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=42820#comment-57964 @Greg, Your logic is sound but probably not applicable. 1. The legality of the wall is the same as the legality of the occupation, so treating them separately seems futile. 2. Whether the correlation between the reduction in terrorists attacks in Israel (and the drastic reduction in car theft) and the erection of the wall is causal or not, whether the situation in the WB has changed for ever or not, whether its demolition will increase the chances for peace or open up a new round of attacks that will reduce the chance... all these are interesting hypotheses that are simply not applicable: would you endanger your family to test them? The wall was built as a reaction, it wasn't a cause. You'll now have to wait for a very different situation to trigger a reaction that demolishes it. @Greg,
Your logic is sound but probably not applicable.
1. The legality of the wall is the same as the legality of the occupation, so treating them separately seems futile.
2. Whether the correlation between the reduction in terrorists attacks in Israel (and the drastic reduction in car theft) and the erection of the wall is causal or not, whether the situation in the WB has changed for ever or not, whether its demolition will increase the chances for peace or open up a new round of attacks that will reduce the chance… all these are interesting hypotheses that are simply not applicable: would you endanger your family to test them?
The wall was built as a reaction, it wasn’t a cause. You’ll now have to wait for a very different situation to trigger a reaction that demolishes it.

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/comment-page-1/#comment-57955 Kolumn9 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 08:23:15 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=42820#comment-57955 Greg, whether the Palestinian suicide bombers are killing Israeli civilians as part of an internal dispute or because they just want to kill Jews is somewhat irrelevant to the dead Israelis or the Israeli government that is supposed to protect them. . What changed in the West Bank is that the groups responsible for the suicide bombings were taking damage from Israeli security steps, were generating damage to the Palestinian economy from Israeli security measures and all while having no real strategic impact on Israel. Groups associated with PA/Fateh stopped the bombings when they realized these facts and the PA resumed security cooperation with Israel. Groups associated with Hamas and Islamic Jihad were suppressed and eliminated in various ways - assassinations, arrests, etc. . Even during the second intifada only 60% of Palestinians supported suicide bombings, meaning 40% were against them. So, certainly the Palestinians are not homogeneous in the tactics they support against Israel. Yet, from the security point of view it doesn't matter if 40% of the Palestinian population had a sudden conversion to Gandhism as long as there is a significant chunk of the population that thinks that targeting Israeli civilians is a legitimate action and the rest do nothing to stop them. . It is this that is the core of the problem. No, not all Palestinians support suicide bombings. However, the problem is that there is no majority that considers it legitimate for their security services to use coercion to stop a Palestinian suicide bomber on their way to blow up Jews, except in cases where it might temporarily be tactically beneficial to do so for their struggle against Israel. That is how the Palestinian Authority managed to sell security cooperation with Israel - that suicide bombings are not productive, they damage the economy and lead to chaos in Palestinian cities. It was not a moral decision to stop the suicide bombings if that is what you are implying. Suicide bombings are not being carried out, but they are considered legitimate forms of 'resistance' toward achieving 'national goals'. Consequently, they will return when Hamas wants them to and Fatah chooses to not stop them. Then Fatah will join in through some vaguely affiliated organization like the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Hamas is still Hamas and the ideological differences between the political and military wings are inconsequential. . The West Bank is controlled completely by the IDF and Israeli security services. They operate indiscriminately of political lines in all areas and nightly enter Palestinian cities to arrest suspects. The PA provides the IDF with intelligence while taking its own steps to suppress the political activity of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. That is the current situation on the ground and I am not going to pretend to be Greg from London to go into the West Bank without a gun to 'measure the change'. My Arabic is terrible and I am not going to base my opinion of Palestinian intentions or beliefs on the basis of people that speak fluent English. What I know is that the political proposals from the early 2000s that base themselves on the emergence of an eternally peaceful and cooperative Palestinian state are a fantasy and should be thrown away along with the people that tried to sell them. The territorial proposals for a Palestinian state that ignore the lessons of the second intifada and the election victory of Hamas are obsolete. If the Palestinians want a state they are going to have to demonstrate for a long time and from a small territorial base that they have changed their ideology to one which accepts the presence of Israel and rejects the use of terrorism against Israeli civilians. They are going to have to prove that their intention is to build a Palestinian state next to Israel as opposed to focusing on resistance to Israel. The potential temporary change of tactics to 'non-violence' while maintaining the same overall ideology is not sufficient to justify the significant security concessions that the Palestinians demand for a peace treaty. . Thanks for reading and half a pleasant morning. Greg, whether the Palestinian suicide bombers are killing Israeli civilians as part of an internal dispute or because they just want to kill Jews is somewhat irrelevant to the dead Israelis or the Israeli government that is supposed to protect them.
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What changed in the West Bank is that the groups responsible for the suicide bombings were taking damage from Israeli security steps, were generating damage to the Palestinian economy from Israeli security measures and all while having no real strategic impact on Israel. Groups associated with PA/Fateh stopped the bombings when they realized these facts and the PA resumed security cooperation with Israel. Groups associated with Hamas and Islamic Jihad were suppressed and eliminated in various ways – assassinations, arrests, etc.
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Even during the second intifada only 60% of Palestinians supported suicide bombings, meaning 40% were against them. So, certainly the Palestinians are not homogeneous in the tactics they support against Israel. Yet, from the security point of view it doesn’t matter if 40% of the Palestinian population had a sudden conversion to Gandhism as long as there is a significant chunk of the population that thinks that targeting Israeli civilians is a legitimate action and the rest do nothing to stop them.
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It is this that is the core of the problem. No, not all Palestinians support suicide bombings. However, the problem is that there is no majority that considers it legitimate for their security services to use coercion to stop a Palestinian suicide bomber on their way to blow up Jews, except in cases where it might temporarily be tactically beneficial to do so for their struggle against Israel. That is how the Palestinian Authority managed to sell security cooperation with Israel – that suicide bombings are not productive, they damage the economy and lead to chaos in Palestinian cities. It was not a moral decision to stop the suicide bombings if that is what you are implying. Suicide bombings are not being carried out, but they are considered legitimate forms of ‘resistance’ toward achieving ‘national goals’. Consequently, they will return when Hamas wants them to and Fatah chooses to not stop them. Then Fatah will join in through some vaguely affiliated organization like the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Hamas is still Hamas and the ideological differences between the political and military wings are inconsequential.
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The West Bank is controlled completely by the IDF and Israeli security services. They operate indiscriminately of political lines in all areas and nightly enter Palestinian cities to arrest suspects. The PA provides the IDF with intelligence while taking its own steps to suppress the political activity of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. That is the current situation on the ground and I am not going to pretend to be Greg from London to go into the West Bank without a gun to ‘measure the change’. My Arabic is terrible and I am not going to base my opinion of Palestinian intentions or beliefs on the basis of people that speak fluent English. What I know is that the political proposals from the early 2000s that base themselves on the emergence of an eternally peaceful and cooperative Palestinian state are a fantasy and should be thrown away along with the people that tried to sell them. The territorial proposals for a Palestinian state that ignore the lessons of the second intifada and the election victory of Hamas are obsolete. If the Palestinians want a state they are going to have to demonstrate for a long time and from a small territorial base that they have changed their ideology to one which accepts the presence of Israel and rejects the use of terrorism against Israeli civilians. They are going to have to prove that their intention is to build a Palestinian state next to Israel as opposed to focusing on resistance to Israel. The potential temporary change of tactics to ‘non-violence’ while maintaining the same overall ideology is not sufficient to justify the significant security concessions that the Palestinians demand for a peace treaty.
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Thanks for reading and half a pleasant morning.

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/comment-page-1/#comment-57935 Greg Pollock Mon, 23 Apr 2012 06:12:53 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=42820#comment-57935 Kolumn9, . You speak of Palestinians as thought they all think alike. Obviously not true. There is an alternative proposition to entertain: the bombings were initiated by one or more groups to reduce the standing of OTHER views and groups in the West Bank. Terrorism is directed not just to the "enemy," but as well to those within Palestinian areas: flaming the fight in such a horrible way can reduce the options of those who would like to fight/resist Israeli policy in other ways. . I am not trying to apologize for the bombers. I am not a neo-Nazi at all. But when a network sends bombers it has two targets: the people who die horribly, and those who would not use such tactics. For Israel responds. Deaths accumulate on the Palestinian side as well. Those opposed to violence of this magnitude my then be silenced (in many ways!) or deemed losers, expanding the potential support base of the bomber aiders. . The bombings have stopped. The wall had somethng to do with that. But I wonder if as well something has changed in the West Bank, in the way people talk, in the way networks form, and in what those networks try to do. Can it be that the Palestinians as a whole are not as identical as you seem to think? Can it even be that some associated with these violent networks have in fact removed their support? . Nothing I say here implies the immediate removal of the wall. But I doubt that people are as uniformly evil as you imply; I would doubt the same if directed to Israelis. Should we not at least try to find a way to measure if change has occurred? . As to Hamas, there seems little doubt that bombers were the weapon of choice of the military wing. The social wing, however, has had to control Gaza for several years. I am uncertain that Hamas can be colored all one way. But, that aside, the real question is whether, in the West Bank, not Gaza, something has changed or not. I do not think everyone in the West Bank embraced suicide bombings and has now decided otherwise. . We are going to have to risk doubt. Or you, over there, will; I am far away and safe. What is the West Bank really like now? Can you risk trying to find out? . Finally, Aristeides, as Haggai noted in his first instalment of this series, once the wall was begun other forces, including realitors so to speak, walked in to get what they could--this I believe. But Sharon's reason was real, misguided or not. All that is the past. The present concerns what is in the West Bank now. As I have said, the right says "more of the past." I am saying that the very absence of bombers, given the wall is not complete, suggests that may be wrong. To be able to say this would be a kind of tiny progress. . Caden, if I really didn't care about Israel I wouldn't attend this site, nor would I say what I do in my own name, fully, Gregory Brian Pollock. I am nobody and have felt so a good long while. I believe what happens in Israel is important to the world; that, in fact, it is struggling with problems history has generally solved in mass slaughter, one way or the other. But Israel cannot do that in toto, and that makes what is happening there and, more importantly, what might somehow later happen through change, important for world history and the nature of law. Neo Nazi? Me? Really? . Thanks for your thoughts. I thought no one would notice. Kolumn9,
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You speak of Palestinians as thought they all think alike. Obviously not true. There is an alternative proposition to entertain: the bombings were initiated by one or more groups to reduce the standing of OTHER views and groups in the West Bank. Terrorism is directed not just to the “enemy,” but as well to those within Palestinian areas: flaming the fight in such a horrible way can reduce the options of those who would like to fight/resist Israeli policy in other ways.
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I am not trying to apologize for the bombers. I am not a neo-Nazi at all. But when a network sends bombers it has two targets: the people who die horribly, and those who would not use such tactics. For Israel responds. Deaths accumulate on the Palestinian side as well. Those opposed to violence of this magnitude my then be silenced (in many ways!) or deemed losers, expanding the potential support base of the bomber aiders.
.
The bombings have stopped. The wall had somethng to do with that. But I wonder if as well something has changed in the West Bank, in the way people talk, in the way networks form, and in what those networks try to do. Can it be that the Palestinians as a whole are not as identical as you seem to think? Can it even be that some associated with these violent networks have in fact removed their support?
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Nothing I say here implies the immediate removal of the wall. But I doubt that people are as uniformly evil as you imply; I would doubt the same if directed to Israelis. Should we not at least try to find a way to measure if change has occurred?
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As to Hamas, there seems little doubt that bombers were the weapon of choice of the military wing. The social wing, however, has had to control Gaza for several years. I am uncertain that Hamas can be colored all one way. But, that aside, the real question is whether, in the West Bank, not Gaza, something has changed or not. I do not think everyone in the West Bank embraced suicide bombings and has now decided otherwise.
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We are going to have to risk doubt. Or you, over there, will; I am far away and safe. What is the West Bank really like now? Can you risk trying to find out?
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Finally, Aristeides, as Haggai noted in his first instalment of this series, once the wall was begun other forces, including realitors so to speak, walked in to get what they could–this I believe. But Sharon’s reason was real, misguided or not. All that is the past. The present concerns what is in the West Bank now. As I have said, the right says “more of the past.” I am saying that the very absence of bombers, given the wall is not complete, suggests that may be wrong. To be able to say this would be a kind of tiny progress.
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Caden, if I really didn’t care about Israel I wouldn’t attend this site, nor would I say what I do in my own name, fully, Gregory Brian Pollock. I am nobody and have felt so a good long while. I believe what happens in Israel is important to the world; that, in fact, it is struggling with problems history has generally solved in mass slaughter, one way or the other. But Israel cannot do that in toto, and that makes what is happening there and, more importantly, what might somehow later happen through change, important for world history and the nature of law. Neo Nazi? Me? Really?
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Thanks for your thoughts. I thought no one would notice.

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/comment-page-1/#comment-57921 Kolumn9 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:08:13 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=42820#comment-57921 I also especially like the statements discounting the suicide bombings because they give Israel reasons to take security measures. It is like Israel was going to build the security wall anyway, but the suicide bombings just kinda magically coincidentally happened right before that to justify that as a step. . The suicide bombings happened. Israeli civilians were attacked in buses, restaurants and malls by people who were supposed to be peaceful and ready for compromise and coexistence. The people that sold this idea to Israel are such outcasts in Israeli society that they have been forced out of politics and out of mainstream journalism to blogs and to the editorial pages of shrinking left-wing newspapers. Strangely, instead of accepting that they were wrong in their original premise they have decided to attack Israel as somehow justifying the murderous rampage that the Palestinians undertook as if the Palestinians are lacking in any ability to make their own decisions or have any responsibility for their own actions. Peace isn't happening because the Palestinians through their actions have convinced the majority of Israelis that they are uninterested in it. I also especially like the statements discounting the suicide bombings because they give Israel reasons to take security measures. It is like Israel was going to build the security wall anyway, but the suicide bombings just kinda magically coincidentally happened right before that to justify that as a step.
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The suicide bombings happened. Israeli civilians were attacked in buses, restaurants and malls by people who were supposed to be peaceful and ready for compromise and coexistence. The people that sold this idea to Israel are such outcasts in Israeli society that they have been forced out of politics and out of mainstream journalism to blogs and to the editorial pages of shrinking left-wing newspapers. Strangely, instead of accepting that they were wrong in their original premise they have decided to attack Israel as somehow justifying the murderous rampage that the Palestinians undertook as if the Palestinians are lacking in any ability to make their own decisions or have any responsibility for their own actions. Peace isn’t happening because the Palestinians through their actions have convinced the majority of Israelis that they are uninterested in it.

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/comment-page-1/#comment-57919 Kolumn9 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 02:53:10 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=42820#comment-57919 Sure, I'll gladly justify the wall and the current state of affairs. The Palestinians decided that they could force Israel to make more concessions using violence as opposed to negotiations and chose to send suicide bombers into Israel. The Israelis built a wall and patrolled the holes. They killed the ringleaders, arrested any suspects anywhere they were (including area A) and set up checkpoints to make it very hard to even get to the wall. People with politics similar to writers on 972 went red in the face telling Israelis that security measures could never stop the suicide bombers and only concessions would work. Instead the Palestinians felt the pain, realized that suicide bombings weren't working and elected to restart security cooperation with Israel and to go back to negotiations. The Israelis removed most of the checkpoints and cut the frequency of patrols where the holes are in the wall. So now thousands of Palestinians are getting through to work in Israel and people like Palestinian and Aristeides claim that the wall is ineffective. . Most of these villages enclosed by the wall are next to large Israeli settlement blocks that had to be defended by Israel and this concern guided the route on which the wall was built. The wall is still there because the suicide bombers can return at any time and having built a massive security structure there really isn't any point in unilaterally dismantling it. That people were hurt by its construction is unfortunate but in the end of the day both natural and expected as a result of the security measures that Israel was forced into due to the tactics used by the Palestinians. . The wall does not need to be there indefinitely but there is simply no reason to believe that the Palestinians aren't going to go back to using suicide bombings or other means of attacking Israeli civilians in the future. There is particularly no reason to believe that considering that Hamas is the rising organization among the Palestinians and it is also the organization that pioneered the use of suicide bombings. Sure, I’ll gladly justify the wall and the current state of affairs. The Palestinians decided that they could force Israel to make more concessions using violence as opposed to negotiations and chose to send suicide bombers into Israel. The Israelis built a wall and patrolled the holes. They killed the ringleaders, arrested any suspects anywhere they were (including area A) and set up checkpoints to make it very hard to even get to the wall. People with politics similar to writers on 972 went red in the face telling Israelis that security measures could never stop the suicide bombers and only concessions would work. Instead the Palestinians felt the pain, realized that suicide bombings weren’t working and elected to restart security cooperation with Israel and to go back to negotiations. The Israelis removed most of the checkpoints and cut the frequency of patrols where the holes are in the wall. So now thousands of Palestinians are getting through to work in Israel and people like Palestinian and Aristeides claim that the wall is ineffective.
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Most of these villages enclosed by the wall are next to large Israeli settlement blocks that had to be defended by Israel and this concern guided the route on which the wall was built. The wall is still there because the suicide bombers can return at any time and having built a massive security structure there really isn’t any point in unilaterally dismantling it. That people were hurt by its construction is unfortunate but in the end of the day both natural and expected as a result of the security measures that Israel was forced into due to the tactics used by the Palestinians.
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The wall does not need to be there indefinitely but there is simply no reason to believe that the Palestinians aren’t going to go back to using suicide bombings or other means of attacking Israeli civilians in the future. There is particularly no reason to believe that considering that Hamas is the rising organization among the Palestinians and it is also the organization that pioneered the use of suicide bombings.

]]> By: caden http://972mag.com/the-wall-10-years-on-part-4-trapped-on-the-wrong-side/42820/comment-page-1/#comment-57910 caden Mon, 23 Apr 2012 01:01:31 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=42820#comment-57910 Come on Haggai, you have neo-nazi's posting on 972 with impunity and your deleting me. How about a little consistency on your policy Come on Haggai, you have neo-nazi’s posting on 972 with impunity and your deleting me. How about a little consistency on your policy

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