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The Wall, 10 years on / part 4: Trapped on the wrong side

This is exactly the kind of thing that planners of the route hoped to avoid: having Palestinians who are barred from entering Israel trapped on the “Israeli” side of the fence. Yet in its long and winding route, the fence engulfs some 35,000 Palestinians who describe their new lives as a daily prison.

The Wall: 10 years on (Oren Ziv / Activestills)

Project Photography: Oren Ziv / Activestills

March 2009. Residents of the small village Wadi a-Rasha in the Qalqiliya district have mixed feelings. On the one hand – their High Court victory is as precedent in the history of the wall – for the first time ever, construction crews are here to build a new route for the fence and to demolish the old one. The news fence frees them from a life they felt was paramount to prison – engulfed in the Alfei Menashe enclave and detached from the rest of the West Bank. On the other hand – the new route leads to the uprooting of more olive trees, and most of the village lands are trapped on the “Israeli” side of the fence.

The villagers decide to fight the new route as well, demanding that the fence be moved to the Green Line, just two kilometers to the west. Small non-violent demonstrations take place almost on a daily basis: Israeli and international activists block the bulldozers, get beaten and arrested, are banned from the district (I myself was subject to the pleasure) and constriction continues. As time goes by, the fence is erected, and like so many other places, the legal battle for permits to cross it begins. This is yet another example of the reality of the gradual detachment of people from their lands, described in chapter three.

Villager overlooking Wadi a-Rasha lands and new route, 2009 (Haggai Matar)

Villager overlooking Wadi a-Rasha lands and new route, 2009 (Haggai Matar)

March 2012. I decide to return to Wadi a-Rasha as part of my work on this project. I see how hard it is to get to the village, the road now going through a long detour and various checkpoints, taking at least three times as long as before. However, I notice an even tinier village that is apparently still on the western side of the fence, and decide to look into it. Apparently, the Wadi a-Rasha petition to the court was joined by four other villages – Ras Atiya, Habla, Arab Abu-Farda and Arab a-Ramadin – and while the first three partially received what they had asked for, the latter two were to remain inside the thin strip between the fence and the Israeli border. Some 1,000 people live in the two villages, and they are all doomed to be disconnected from their wider community for the foreseeable future.

Two kilos of tomatoes – no more

“We live in something that is part jail, part hell,” Qasab Sha’ur says bitterly. Sha’ur is a resident of Arab a-Ramadin, and has to go through the fence at least once or twice a day. “Our village is small, just 500 people, and it had no hospital or clinic, no school, no big shops or workplaces, so everything requires crossing the checkpoint. But going through can take an hour, at best. Coming by car, you have to empty your vehicle completely, send every little thing through an X-ray machine. Then the car is checked manually, then a dog takes a sniff around, and then any fluid you have has to be sampled and examined at a laboratory they have there – this includes water and olive oil. This is what my daily ride home looks like.”

Strange as it may seem, this actually describes a best-case scenario, in which the content of the car and the passenger are ultimately allowed through. In many other cases, the villagers have to deal with strange limitations on what may or may not be brought from the other side. For example, retuning home from shopping with more than two kilograms of tomatoes leads to a short investigation, ultimately requiring a special permit from the army’s District Coordination Office. Meat and eggs require a permit from the Israeli Ministry of Agriculture. Friends, doctors, ambulances, servicepersons and relatives cannot go through at all.

“Since the checkpoint, the Eyal Terminal, as they call it, is the last buffer before entering Israel, the authorities consider it a proper border crossing, even though it is not on the Green Line and there are both Jewish settlers and Palestinians on the other side,” says attorney Michael Sfard, who represented the villages in court. “Now we’ve finally reached a status quo that allows people to bring groceries through for personal consumption – but the definition of that term is negotiable. It’s hard to begin to explain the implications of this on people’s lives, as one would have to break down every single part of a person’s life to see how harsh the fence is on it.”

The Alfe Menashe enclave (Map: B'Tselem)

The Alfei Menashe enclave. The wall is in red, the old route in dotted brown. Arab a-Ramadin is in the center (Map: B’Tselem)

As mentioned before, Arab a-Ramadin is trapped in the same enclave as the settlement of Alfei Menashe – but the fence running around them both is the only thing these two places have in common. The village, founded in the late 50s by Bedouins who were forced out of the Negev, has no proper roads, no running water and no electricity (“even though the pipes and power cables go under and above their heads to Alfei Mensashe,” stresses Sfard), and there are standing demolition orders against of its houses. Villagers can physically walk or ride into Israel unchecked, but if caught, they can go to prison. There is separation even in the checkpoint, as settlers go through a fast lane with no questions asked, and Palestinians go through the process described above. “I try to tell the army that all residents of the enclave should at least share the same lane at the checkpoint, but I know the mere thought of Israelis and Palestinians being treated equally is totally foreign to the army’s way of thought,” says Sfard.

A bleak future

Arab a-Ramadin and Arab Abu-Farda are not alone. To the north, there is also Bart’a – recently visited by Yuval Ben-Ami’s in his Round Trip - also trapped in a fence enclave. Looking south, one encounters the villages of Hussan, Wadi Fukin, Nahalin, Batir and Al-Jab’a, which are to be surrounded by the Gush Etzion fence from the east and another one to the west. Further south, the West Bank village of A-Seefer is caged by the fence of the South Hebron Hills. According to B’Tselem, 35,000 Palestinians are either already trapped on the wrong side of the wall, or will be if and when its construction ends. This does not include residents of East Jerusalem. “The Palestinians will never allow for even a single village to be annexed to Israel,” determines Colonel (res.) Shaul Arieli, a member of the Council for Peace and Security. “I have no idea why they would build a fence on such a route that would clearly have to be changed and rebuilt – at least because of these villages”.

The new fence near Wadi a-Rasha (Oren Ziv / Activestills)

The new fence near Wadi a-Rasha (Oren Ziv / Activestills)

Meanwhile in Arab a-Ramadin, the villagers see nothing but a bleak future ahead of them. “You know, most of us had to change our way of making a living,” tells me Sha’ur. “Once, most people had sheep, the village was full of them, but now we only have 10 percent of our pasture lands left, and you can’t get the sheep across the fence. So the livestock had to be sold, and now we work for the PA. or as simple workers elsewhere around the West Bank, and have to cross the checkpoint every day.

“Three years ago, the Civil Administration contacted us, and offered us a transfer into the West Bank. Ever since, they keep on offering. The land we sit on belongs to us, and they offered us to exchange lands on the other side of the fence. But the West Bank is under occupation, and I am no settler who will take someone else’s land while backed by the Israeli Civil Administration. A Palestinian can’t just do that, nor is there any reason for us to move. It’s the fence that has to move to the Green Line.”

Link to part 5 – on the popular resistance to the wall.

Previous chapters in this series:

Part 1: The great Israeli project

Part 2: Wall and Peace

Part 3: An acre here and an acre there

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  • COMMENTS

    1. shongalolla

      Surely it is now incumbent upon the Palestinians to understand that the time has come to speak to their leaders and ask that HAMAS changes its charter? Since the security fence is up – suicide bombing has ceased. Israel wants to take these walls down, but how can she when HAMAS wants to wipe her out? Please ask the Palestinian people stop being so weak.

      Reply to Comment
    2. Jack

      Shongalolla,
      This has been said so many times, the wall is illegal due where its built (on palestinian side). Israel could have built the wall on their own side and it would have been no problem, as ICJ showed the wall has more to do with encircle settlements and landgrabbing.

      Reply to Comment
    3. Palestinian

      Thousands of Palestinians cross the green line daily illegally (in case we consider the occupation of 48 land legal),so if one of them intends to attack Israelis he can ,which proves the wall isnt doing its claimed purpose.

      Reply to Comment
    4. aristeides

      This was always the plan – transfer by small daily torments. The entire purpose is landgrab and ethnic cleansing.

      Reply to Comment
    5. the other joe

      I’d be interested to hear anyone attempt to justify this state of affairs. What is so hard about building the wall between Israel and the Palestinian villages?

      Reply to Comment
    6. aristeides

      Other – you’ve got to realize that “security” isn’t the point of the wall. It’s the excuse. The actual point of the wall is to bring about exactly this state of affairs, whereby Israelis can grab the land cut off by it.

      .
      In a lot of cases, there are powerful real estate interests involved, who have already planned the settlements they’re going to put on the land after confiscation. There are millions in profits to be made in land theft.

      Reply to Comment
    7. caden

      There was no wall before waves of suicide bombers starting hitting Israel. Wall goes up. The attacks dwindle. If the wall is impacting the Palestinians perhaps hamas, Islamic Jihad, and al-aksa brigades might have considered that before they started hitting discos, pizza joints, and //sedars. And especially the targeting that they did of young Jewish girls.

      Reply to Comment
    8. First, I would like to note the quality of these pieces. Like many others, I will take a tangent from the subject, thereby masking the real life burdens the wall creates.
      .
      Caden, Shang, yes, there were bombers. And, yes, I suspect the wall depressed the possibility of successful future bombings. But, implicit in your brief views is the proposition that there is some minimal frequency of bombers which must always be suppressed. Hamas, likewise, is seen as fixed forever in time, although its political wing has had to (sort of) run a territory for several years–no longer the enemy in hidden anger, but faced with daily questions of governance.
      .
      As Palestinian, above, notes, the barrior is not complete, with many illegally crossing, perhaps daily, into Israel proper. There have been no bombings. Perhaps Israeli security has removed some before they actualized themselves. But all?
      .
      We must consider the possibility that something has altered the socio-political economy of the West Bank; that what was thought there inevitable, bombers, is no longer there. That is a very scary proposition to consider, and I do not know how to articulate it at all in full. The bombers were real; some social process created them. But could it be that the 10 years of occupation have altered whatever mix that was?
      .
      The topic of bombers is so charged that no one speakes of it much, as far as I can tell. The very thing Israel fights against at its core is a forbidden topic. This must change. We have to ask what caused them to be, what sustained the wave of the early 2000′s, and whether things have now changed on the ground.
      .
      We also have to ask if Uri Avneri is right that the decision to target leaders of demonstrations early in the 2nd intifata created an explosive situation which activated prior networks launching these bombers. It is very hard to “know” what really happens in Israel, but I have heard no denial of Uri’s charge. Even if true, this would not legitimize the bombers. But explanation is not approval. We have to ask if the good guys Israel did any thing which either induced the surge of bombings or sustained its height.
      .
      I doubt many want answers to these questions, left or right. The right holds the bomber hostage as ultimate legitimacy. The left has only silence or apologies for the bomber’s existence. They are the right’s greatest blind spot, justifying everything; and the left’s greatest weakness, denying all reform.
      .
      There is a taboo on talking about suicide bombing. It must be broken. I am beginning to wonder if Israel is not fighting a war whose enemy has already gone. I do not mean by this that suicide bombings are totally of the past; no, I full expect a few if peace actions finally come. But sustained bombing–that, I begin to think, may be gone, if we can come to understand what sustains these types.
      .
      Don’t let suicide bombing control Israel’s future. I do not know where this goes, and there is risk. But look where this silence has taken you. You cannot understand a plauge through silence; so too these bombings.

      Reply to Comment
    9. aristeides

      The pro-occupation voices – the Cadens of the world – will never let go of the suicide bombings. They need for Palestinians to be terrorists in order to justify all their crimes against them.

      .
      A reminder of the relevant history might be in order. Originally, it was the left that proposed the wall – to be on the Green Line – as both prevention of infiltration and a tentative border for an independent Palestinian state.

      .
      This was vehemently opposed by the setters, who saw it, correctly, as a proposal intended to cut them off from Israel and limit their expansion. There was a large faction among the settlers opposed to barriers, which they saw as limiting their access to all of Palestine.

      .
      Then some bright characters realized the advantages they could reap from a wall built well within Palestinian territory, cutting off large tracts of Palestinian land that would eventually be annexed for Jewish settlement. From that point, the wall became a right-wing, pro-settlement landgrabbing project.

      .
      The official Israeli positions – that it would be removed as soon as there was peace, that Palestinians would retain access to their own lands – were always lies. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard Israeli apologist fools declare that the wall will come down as soon as Palestinians renounce terrorism. Because in their minds, Palestinians will be terrorists forever, no matter how nonviolent, because otherwise their excuse won’t work.

      Reply to Comment
    10. Craig Vale

      The wall is but a symbol of an apartheid state that was aptly coined by former President Jimmy Carter. He was vilified for the quote but in hindsight he seems to have nailed the association. The greatest threat to Israel comes from within the confines of that wall NOT what lies beyond ! As some earlier poster noted many of the Israeli hawks NEED Palestinian suicide bombers to justify their oppression and occupation in hopes of realizing a greater Israel, ( 21 st. century Lebensraum if you will ) I have no doubt if all the bombers disappeared tomorrow , Those on the right would recruit more via Mossad in order to keep the anti Palestinian fervor at a fever pitch !

      Reply to Comment
    11. aristeides

      The IDF carries on a policy of constant, deliberate provocation to make sure the Palestinians always have a motive for terrorism, which will then justify IDF activities.

      .
      “Fertilizing the grass.”

      Reply to Comment
    12. caden

      Come on Haggai, you have neo-nazi’s posting on 972 with impunity and your deleting me. How about a little consistency on your policy

      Reply to Comment
    13. Kolumn9

      Sure, I’ll gladly justify the wall and the current state of affairs. The Palestinians decided that they could force Israel to make more concessions using violence as opposed to negotiations and chose to send suicide bombers into Israel. The Israelis built a wall and patrolled the holes. They killed the ringleaders, arrested any suspects anywhere they were (including area A) and set up checkpoints to make it very hard to even get to the wall. People with politics similar to writers on 972 went red in the face telling Israelis that security measures could never stop the suicide bombers and only concessions would work. Instead the Palestinians felt the pain, realized that suicide bombings weren’t working and elected to restart security cooperation with Israel and to go back to negotiations. The Israelis removed most of the checkpoints and cut the frequency of patrols where the holes are in the wall. So now thousands of Palestinians are getting through to work in Israel and people like Palestinian and Aristeides claim that the wall is ineffective.
      .

      Most of these villages enclosed by the wall are next to large Israeli settlement blocks that had to be defended by Israel and this concern guided the route on which the wall was built. The wall is still there because the suicide bombers can return at any time and having built a massive security structure there really isn’t any point in unilaterally dismantling it. That people were hurt by its construction is unfortunate but in the end of the day both natural and expected as a result of the security measures that Israel was forced into due to the tactics used by the Palestinians.
      .

      The wall does not need to be there indefinitely but there is simply no reason to believe that the Palestinians aren’t going to go back to using suicide bombings or other means of attacking Israeli civilians in the future. There is particularly no reason to believe that considering that Hamas is the rising organization among the Palestinians and it is also the organization that pioneered the use of suicide bombings.

      Reply to Comment
    14. Kolumn9

      I also especially like the statements discounting the suicide bombings because they give Israel reasons to take security measures. It is like Israel was going to build the security wall anyway, but the suicide bombings just kinda magically coincidentally happened right before that to justify that as a step.
      .

      The suicide bombings happened. Israeli civilians were attacked in buses, restaurants and malls by people who were supposed to be peaceful and ready for compromise and coexistence. The people that sold this idea to Israel are such outcasts in Israeli society that they have been forced out of politics and out of mainstream journalism to blogs and to the editorial pages of shrinking left-wing newspapers. Strangely, instead of accepting that they were wrong in their original premise they have decided to attack Israel as somehow justifying the murderous rampage that the Palestinians undertook as if the Palestinians are lacking in any ability to make their own decisions or have any responsibility for their own actions. Peace isn’t happening because the Palestinians through their actions have convinced the majority of Israelis that they are uninterested in it.

      Reply to Comment
    15. Kolumn9,
      .
      You speak of Palestinians as thought they all think alike. Obviously not true. There is an alternative proposition to entertain: the bombings were initiated by one or more groups to reduce the standing of OTHER views and groups in the West Bank. Terrorism is directed not just to the “enemy,” but as well to those within Palestinian areas: flaming the fight in such a horrible way can reduce the options of those who would like to fight/resist Israeli policy in other ways.
      .
      I am not trying to apologize for the bombers. I am not a neo-Nazi at all. But when a network sends bombers it has two targets: the people who die horribly, and those who would not use such tactics. For Israel responds. Deaths accumulate on the Palestinian side as well. Those opposed to violence of this magnitude my then be silenced (in many ways!) or deemed losers, expanding the potential support base of the bomber aiders.
      .
      The bombings have stopped. The wall had somethng to do with that. But I wonder if as well something has changed in the West Bank, in the way people talk, in the way networks form, and in what those networks try to do. Can it be that the Palestinians as a whole are not as identical as you seem to think? Can it even be that some associated with these violent networks have in fact removed their support?
      .
      Nothing I say here implies the immediate removal of the wall. But I doubt that people are as uniformly evil as you imply; I would doubt the same if directed to Israelis. Should we not at least try to find a way to measure if change has occurred?
      .
      As to Hamas, there seems little doubt that bombers were the weapon of choice of the military wing. The social wing, however, has had to control Gaza for several years. I am uncertain that Hamas can be colored all one way. But, that aside, the real question is whether, in the West Bank, not Gaza, something has changed or not. I do not think everyone in the West Bank embraced suicide bombings and has now decided otherwise.
      .
      We are going to have to risk doubt. Or you, over there, will; I am far away and safe. What is the West Bank really like now? Can you risk trying to find out?
      .
      Finally, Aristeides, as Haggai noted in his first instalment of this series, once the wall was begun other forces, including realitors so to speak, walked in to get what they could–this I believe. But Sharon’s reason was real, misguided or not. All that is the past. The present concerns what is in the West Bank now. As I have said, the right says “more of the past.” I am saying that the very absence of bombers, given the wall is not complete, suggests that may be wrong. To be able to say this would be a kind of tiny progress.
      .
      Caden, if I really didn’t care about Israel I wouldn’t attend this site, nor would I say what I do in my own name, fully, Gregory Brian Pollock. I am nobody and have felt so a good long while. I believe what happens in Israel is important to the world; that, in fact, it is struggling with problems history has generally solved in mass slaughter, one way or the other. But Israel cannot do that in toto, and that makes what is happening there and, more importantly, what might somehow later happen through change, important for world history and the nature of law. Neo Nazi? Me? Really?
      .
      Thanks for your thoughts. I thought no one would notice.

      Reply to Comment
    16. Kolumn9

      Greg, whether the Palestinian suicide bombers are killing Israeli civilians as part of an internal dispute or because they just want to kill Jews is somewhat irrelevant to the dead Israelis or the Israeli government that is supposed to protect them.
      .

      What changed in the West Bank is that the groups responsible for the suicide bombings were taking damage from Israeli security steps, were generating damage to the Palestinian economy from Israeli security measures and all while having no real strategic impact on Israel. Groups associated with PA/Fateh stopped the bombings when they realized these facts and the PA resumed security cooperation with Israel. Groups associated with Hamas and Islamic Jihad were suppressed and eliminated in various ways – assassinations, arrests, etc.
      .

      Even during the second intifada only 60% of Palestinians supported suicide bombings, meaning 40% were against them. So, certainly the Palestinians are not homogeneous in the tactics they support against Israel. Yet, from the security point of view it doesn’t matter if 40% of the Palestinian population had a sudden conversion to Gandhism as long as there is a significant chunk of the population that thinks that targeting Israeli civilians is a legitimate action and the rest do nothing to stop them.
      .

      It is this that is the core of the problem. No, not all Palestinians support suicide bombings. However, the problem is that there is no majority that considers it legitimate for their security services to use coercion to stop a Palestinian suicide bomber on their way to blow up Jews, except in cases where it might temporarily be tactically beneficial to do so for their struggle against Israel. That is how the Palestinian Authority managed to sell security cooperation with Israel – that suicide bombings are not productive, they damage the economy and lead to chaos in Palestinian cities. It was not a moral decision to stop the suicide bombings if that is what you are implying. Suicide bombings are not being carried out, but they are considered legitimate forms of ‘resistance’ toward achieving ‘national goals’. Consequently, they will return when Hamas wants them to and Fatah chooses to not stop them. Then Fatah will join in through some vaguely affiliated organization like the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Hamas is still Hamas and the ideological differences between the political and military wings are inconsequential.
      .

      The West Bank is controlled completely by the IDF and Israeli security services. They operate indiscriminately of political lines in all areas and nightly enter Palestinian cities to arrest suspects. The PA provides the IDF with intelligence while taking its own steps to suppress the political activity of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. That is the current situation on the ground and I am not going to pretend to be Greg from London to go into the West Bank without a gun to ‘measure the change’. My Arabic is terrible and I am not going to base my opinion of Palestinian intentions or beliefs on the basis of people that speak fluent English. What I know is that the political proposals from the early 2000s that base themselves on the emergence of an eternally peaceful and cooperative Palestinian state are a fantasy and should be thrown away along with the people that tried to sell them. The territorial proposals for a Palestinian state that ignore the lessons of the second intifada and the election victory of Hamas are obsolete. If the Palestinians want a state they are going to have to demonstrate for a long time and from a small territorial base that they have changed their ideology to one which accepts the presence of Israel and rejects the use of terrorism against Israeli civilians. They are going to have to prove that their intention is to build a Palestinian state next to Israel as opposed to focusing on resistance to Israel. The potential temporary change of tactics to ‘non-violence’ while maintaining the same overall ideology is not sufficient to justify the significant security concessions that the Palestinians demand for a peace treaty.
      .

      Thanks for reading and half a pleasant morning.

      Reply to Comment
    17. max

      @Greg,
      Your logic is sound but probably not applicable.
      1. The legality of the wall is the same as the legality of the occupation, so treating them separately seems futile.
      2. Whether the correlation between the reduction in terrorists attacks in Israel (and the drastic reduction in car theft) and the erection of the wall is causal or not, whether the situation in the WB has changed for ever or not, whether its demolition will increase the chances for peace or open up a new round of attacks that will reduce the chance… all these are interesting hypotheses that are simply not applicable: would you endanger your family to test them?
      The wall was built as a reaction, it wasn’t a cause. You’ll now have to wait for a very different situation to trigger a reaction that demolishes it.

      Reply to Comment
    18. the other joe

      I’m sorry, I must be missing a memo: these villages are inside the wall. How is the wall then protecting Israel from the Palestinian inhabitants of those villages?

      Reply to Comment
    19. aristeides

      Greg Pollack – Sharon was the arch-architect of the settlements, that was his primary motive all along.

      Reply to Comment
    20. Kolumn9

      @TOJ, The wall is protecting Israel and Israeli civilians from Palestinian suicide bombers originating in the areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian villages inside the wall are there because they are very close to Jewish settlements which the wall is protecting. The number of Palestinians inside the wall is 35,000. The number of Palestinians outside the wall is 2M+. The 35,000 Palestinians inside the wall must go through security as if they are entering Israel. So, yeah, the bigger picture is that the wall was built to protect Israelis.
      .

      @Aresteides, The old Sharon would have never built the wall or removed settlements from anywhere in the West Bank. Sharon changed when he became prime minister.

      Reply to Comment
    21. RichardL

      Coming late to this piece and may have missed the bus, but can I just get it clear what Kolumn9 is telling us. Am I right in deducing that you are saying:
       
      1) That the suicide bombings started in a vacuum. That is to say in no way were they a response to the illegal seizure of East Jerusalem, or the illegal settlement project which has been expanding continuously (and steadily eroding the Palestinian West Bank) since the establishment of Kfar Etzion in October 1967 i.e. decades before the wall was even thought of?
      2) That Israel’s non-compliance with Oslo with regard to such matters as the release of prisoners, settlement freeze and of course no permanent status agreement and no Palestinian state seven years after the Accords was in no way connected with the anger generally felt throughout the occupied Palestinian territories prior to the start of the second intifada?
      3) That Arial Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount and the brutal police reaction was not a provocation to the Palestinians and is irrelevant to your explanations?
      4) That the period between this visit in September 2000 and the start of the suicide bombings in following year, during which time the army defied its own Prime Minister and went rampant amongst the civilian Palestinian population, has no bearing on the start of the Palestinian terror campaign?
      5) And also when you say “now thousands of Palestinians are getting through to work in Israel” are you inferring that the illegal settlements in Palestinian territory are somehow part of Israel?
       
      Perhaps you could also explain why you wrote” large Israeli settlement blocks that had to be defended by Israel” since I had always understood part of the raison d’etre of the settlements was that they defended the state of Israel and not vice versa. 
      In fact how is it that you cannot understand that if you violently oppress a people for more than three decades, steal their land, water and resources, violate their holiest site in the region and then let your army run amok against their population that you are in fact the aggressor and not the innocent victim of the brutal violence that ensues? How come you never once refer to a dead Palestinian in the whole of your lengthy pieces here? Do they never enter your consciousness at all?

      Reply to Comment
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