Comments on: The utopian vision of ‘security’ is killing Israel http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Tue, 18 Jun 2013 05:35:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/comment-page-2/#comment-60109 Greg Pollock Sun, 06 May 2012 09:00:07 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44369#comment-60109 An aside to all the discussion: . If you cannot, what, ten years later, deal with the deaths of the Nazareth 13, how will you deal with the human frailings ever recurrent in the West Bank? (I tend to omit Gaza now for I am of the view that Israeli State policy really hopes that Gaza will be absorbed into Egypt; Gaza has become a separate issue--and I don't like that at all, but it seems the case.) Deal with your home and own. Don't turn away from the Bank, but progress in law seems more possible among your citizen own. . I'm a nobody saying this. I engage in no resistence. But I am telling you what I see, wrong or right. An aside to all the discussion:
.
If you cannot, what, ten years later, deal with the deaths of the Nazareth 13, how will you deal with the human frailings ever recurrent in the West Bank? (I tend to omit Gaza now for I am of the view that Israeli State policy really hopes that Gaza will be absorbed into Egypt; Gaza has become a separate issue–and I don’t like that at all, but it seems the case.) Deal with your home and own. Don’t turn away from the Bank, but progress in law seems more possible among your citizen own.
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I’m a nobody saying this. I engage in no resistence. But I am telling you what I see, wrong or right.

]]> By: Piotr Berman http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/comment-page-2/#comment-59888 Piotr Berman Fri, 04 May 2012 14:35:18 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44369#comment-59888 AARON THE FASCIST TROLL Thursday, May 3, 2012 12:49 pm I kind of see things the way Greg does. The left-Zionist program would most likely lead to more bloodshed and fear for Israelis, at least in the short term. This is a total non-sequitur. The current strategy of IDF and Israeli government is to keep Gaza under heel and oppressed, and to prevent folks there from having any weapons that can harm Israel AND assassinate them from time to time for a good measure. Right now it works and assassinations result in rather impotent retaliations that just raise useful amount of fear. Without fear people start to think too much about issues like cost of renting apartments, quality of schools or prices of cottage cheese. However, pretty soon it may stop working because this strategy requires very active cooperation from Egyptian government, and it seems 95% sure that this level of cooperation will be gone before the end of this year. At that point standard Israeli policies will lead to painful destruction and bloodshed. The effectiveness of oppressive policies in West Bank also has quite limited time scale. "Common wisdom" in Israel is based on delusions. You can keep helots down, you can keep foreign friends of helotes down, but ultimately Sparta met Epaminondas. AARON THE FASCIST TROLL
Thursday,
May 3, 2012
12:49 pm
I kind of see things the way Greg does. The left-Zionist program would most likely lead to more bloodshed and fear for Israelis, at least in the short term.

This is a total non-sequitur. The current strategy of IDF and Israeli government is to keep Gaza under heel and oppressed, and to prevent folks there from having any weapons that can harm Israel AND assassinate them from time to time for a good measure.

Right now it works and assassinations result in rather impotent retaliations that just raise useful amount of fear. Without fear people start to think too much about issues like cost of renting apartments, quality of schools or prices of cottage cheese.

However, pretty soon it may stop working because this strategy requires very active cooperation from Egyptian government, and it seems 95% sure that this level of cooperation will be gone before the end of this year. At that point standard Israeli policies will lead to painful destruction and bloodshed. The effectiveness of oppressive policies in West Bank also has quite limited time scale. “Common wisdom” in Israel is based on delusions. You can keep helots down, you can keep foreign friends of helotes down, but ultimately Sparta met Epaminondas.

]]> By: Jack http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/comment-page-2/#comment-59859 Jack Fri, 04 May 2012 08:46:55 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44369#comment-59859 Kolumn9, Debunking international law and consensus? Your argument makes no sense. Whole world consider Gaza occupied because it IS occupied. Kolumn9,
Debunking international law and consensus?
Your argument makes no sense. Whole world consider Gaza occupied because it IS occupied.

]]> By: Y. http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/comment-page-2/#comment-59852 Y. Fri, 04 May 2012 07:42:00 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44369#comment-59852 Krol, . It does seem we are writing past each other, so I'll call it a day with this post. One thing I have missed is your emphasis that "Migron and Itzhar [etc. - Y.] ARE gravest security threat for Israel". You seem to have missed that my point was your withdrawal offer is unlikely to occur and is going to lead to outcomes which are even by your standards not just bad, but worse than the current situation. And again, I don't buy your 'apartheid' claims. Lets start with the first issue. . First, I don't quite see any 'security threat' from these places. It's obvious you're not talking of some direct security threat from there, but about something else (Mass boycott? Frayed relations with Europe and the US?). I don't buy the international consequences line. I can't think of much ill-effect internationally so far from them, rather, in practice, Israel is attacked and affected much more over the wars post-withdrawal (not a surprise when everyone has an interest in Middle East stability). Nor do I find intl. relations to be the most important thing either. And if the public decides you are right sometime in the future, we can always implement your withdrawal idea then [though this may not be the only alternative] and the cost won't change significantly from now. . As for withdrawal (you haven't literally specified to where, I'll assume green line from the context), you have conceded almost all the other likely results (wars, 'temporary' occupations, etc.) [e.g. #2:38am post start]. These result are pretty obvious both from past history, and from an obvious look at the politics (Yeah, Hamas is genocidal. How long before it attacks Israel again? How different are other streams in PA politics?), but apparently this is fine so long as settlements go and the army temporarily withdraws (until the next time it goes in). Fortunately, I don't see the Israeli public signing up for this just to help their enemies or hurt the settlers. But lets assume it somehow does sign up. What would be the long-term effect? . Well, we already concluded there would be some nasty big wars and the IDF would be in again. Do you really think the Israeli public would suffer this without desiring to change the status quo so that the events will not be repeated? What would actually happen is a very rightist government would come to power (the Left would be discredited yet again, so I don't see it influencing), and it would immediately start (re)implementing all the policies you hate and occupying territory in the WB. You would end up at a worse variation of the current status even settlement and occupation-wise, as the Left would be (further) discredited and with even less influence. . I don't buy your apartheid claims either. It's funny how when talking to Jack it's fine to rely on that the UN/West/etc. supposedly does not consider Gaza under occupation, but here apparently their opinion [never having declared or decided 'apartheid' applies here] does not matter. (Come to think of it, you seem to be justifiably deterred from bloodshed if some ideas are implemented - but post-withdrawal it doesn't matter either. Oh, well, at least the settlers would be harmed temporarily!). In any event, your argument relies on accepting 67' borders and viewing the WB+G in toto, except neither side wants or accepts these as borders, these aren't practical anyhow (as I've written elsewhere in +972, the idea was to have a secure Israel and a viable Palestine, except you can't have a viable Palestine in even 100% of WBG, and a secure Israel would require different borders), don't reflect the situation on the ground, and nor the legal situation or even the opinions of the intl. community. . In sum, you may feel you have noble ends, but it doesn't change the fact your tactics (I'm sure Israeli opinion loves SA comparisons) and suggested course (lets pull the army out and bring it in again) is counterproductive to your cause just as much as the Left's criticism on Cast Lead are counterproductive to its cause. I don't mind that - but the even the remote possibility we'll all be harmed by this silliness is unfortunate. Krol,
.
It does seem we are writing past each other, so I’ll call it a day with this post. One thing I have missed is your emphasis that “Migron and Itzhar [etc. - Y.] ARE gravest security threat for Israel”. You seem to have missed that my point was your withdrawal offer is unlikely to occur and is going to lead to outcomes which are even by your standards not just bad, but worse than the current situation. And again, I don’t buy your ‘apartheid’ claims. Lets start with the first issue.
.
First, I don’t quite see any ‘security threat’ from these places. It’s obvious you’re not talking of some direct security threat from there, but about something else (Mass boycott? Frayed relations with Europe and the US?). I don’t buy the international consequences line. I can’t think of much ill-effect internationally so far from them, rather, in practice, Israel is attacked and affected much more over the wars post-withdrawal (not a surprise when everyone has an interest in Middle East stability). Nor do I find intl. relations to be the most important thing either. And if the public decides you are right sometime in the future, we can always implement your withdrawal idea then [though this may not be the only alternative] and the cost won’t change significantly from now.
.
As for withdrawal (you haven’t literally specified to where, I’ll assume green line from the context), you have conceded almost all the other likely results (wars, ‘temporary’ occupations, etc.) [e.g. #2:38am post start]. These result are pretty obvious both from past history, and from an obvious look at the politics (Yeah, Hamas is genocidal. How long before it attacks Israel again? How different are other streams in PA politics?), but apparently this is fine so long as settlements go and the army temporarily withdraws (until the next time it goes in). Fortunately, I don’t see the Israeli public signing up for this just to help their enemies or hurt the settlers. But lets assume it somehow does sign up. What would be the long-term effect?
.
Well, we already concluded there would be some nasty big wars and the IDF would be in again. Do you really think the Israeli public would suffer this without desiring to change the status quo so that the events will not be repeated? What would actually happen is a very rightist government would come to power (the Left would be discredited yet again, so I don’t see it influencing), and it would immediately start (re)implementing all the policies you hate and occupying territory in the WB. You would end up at a worse variation of the current status even settlement and occupation-wise, as the Left would be (further) discredited and with even less influence.
.
I don’t buy your apartheid claims either. It’s funny how when talking to Jack it’s fine to rely on that the UN/West/etc. supposedly does not consider Gaza under occupation, but here apparently their opinion [never having declared or decided 'apartheid' applies here] does not matter. (Come to think of it, you seem to be justifiably deterred from bloodshed if some ideas are implemented – but post-withdrawal it doesn’t matter either. Oh, well, at least the settlers would be harmed temporarily!). In any event, your argument relies on accepting 67′ borders and viewing the WB+G in toto, except neither side wants or accepts these as borders, these aren’t practical anyhow (as I’ve written elsewhere in +972, the idea was to have a secure Israel and a viable Palestine, except you can’t have a viable Palestine in even 100% of WBG, and a secure Israel would require different borders), don’t reflect the situation on the ground, and nor the legal situation or even the opinions of the intl. community.
.
In sum, you may feel you have noble ends, but it doesn’t change the fact your tactics (I’m sure Israeli opinion loves SA comparisons) and suggested course (lets pull the army out and bring it in again) is counterproductive to your cause just as much as the Left’s criticism on Cast Lead are counterproductive to its cause. I don’t mind that – but the even the remote possibility we’ll all be harmed by this silliness is unfortunate.

]]> By: Cortez http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/comment-page-2/#comment-59838 Cortez Fri, 04 May 2012 05:11:54 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44369#comment-59838 @zayzafuna: an intermediary option is to treat Palestinians as humans, equals and as brothers. Doesn't have to be that extreme. @zayzafuna: an intermediary option is to treat Palestinians as humans, equals and as brothers. Doesn’t have to be that extreme.

]]> By: zayzafuna http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/comment-page-2/#comment-59819 zayzafuna Fri, 04 May 2012 03:06:03 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44369#comment-59819 If you want peace, get out of Palestine. You can choose-israel or peace, cant have both If you want peace, get out of Palestine. You can choose-israel or peace, cant have both

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/comment-page-2/#comment-59803 Kolumn9 Fri, 04 May 2012 01:15:17 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44369#comment-59803 No, Jack, it is debunking the argument you used. According to your argument as long as the UN *calls* the geographic area that Gaza belongs to 'Occupied Palestinian Territory' it must be occupied regardless of whether Gaza really is occupied or not. No, Jack, it is debunking the argument you used. According to your argument as long as the UN *calls* the geographic area that Gaza belongs to ‘Occupied Palestinian Territory’ it must be occupied regardless of whether Gaza really is occupied or not.

]]> By: Jack http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/comment-page-2/#comment-59794 Jack Thu, 03 May 2012 23:35:42 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44369#comment-59794 Kolumn9, That argument was plain weirdness. But its nothing new, after all, "Israel is always right" rest of the world, international law is wrong. No wonder Israel nor its supporters dont realize what a threat they are... Kolumn9,
That argument was plain weirdness. But its nothing new, after all, “Israel is always right” rest of the world, international law is wrong. No wonder Israel nor its supporters dont realize what a threat they are…

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/comment-page-2/#comment-59793 Kolumn9 Thu, 03 May 2012 23:19:07 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44369#comment-59793 The discussion between Shlomo and Jack would be funny if it wasn't sad. The UN calls the geographic area of WB&G as the 'Occupied Palestinian Territories'. In practice, what the UN has decided is that regardless of the actual status of the territory it will continue to be referred to as 'Occupied'. Israel can cut off all contact with Gaza, close all Gaza/Israel border crossings, remove the flow of gas and water, and even if Gaza turns into a prosperous enclave with no relation whatsoever to Israel at the UN it will still be referred to as part of the 'Occupied Palestinian Territories' and people will continue making the argument that it is occupied. This is why the UN can't be taken seriously and neither can Jack. The discussion between Shlomo and Jack would be funny if it wasn’t sad. The UN calls the geographic area of WB&G as the ‘Occupied Palestinian Territories’. In practice, what the UN has decided is that regardless of the actual status of the territory it will continue to be referred to as ‘Occupied’. Israel can cut off all contact with Gaza, close all Gaza/Israel border crossings, remove the flow of gas and water, and even if Gaza turns into a prosperous enclave with no relation whatsoever to Israel at the UN it will still be referred to as part of the ‘Occupied Palestinian Territories’ and people will continue making the argument that it is occupied. This is why the UN can’t be taken seriously and neither can Jack.

]]> By: Piotr Berman http://972mag.com/the-utopian-vision-of-security-is-killing-israel/44369/comment-page-2/#comment-59791 Piotr Berman Thu, 03 May 2012 23:11:52 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44369#comment-59791 Shlomo, and me in brackets Ayla, it’s not that I justify Gaza war. It was a horror – how can I justify it? [Surprisingly, you have found a way!] I’m just saying the obvious: this war was not started by Israel, but by Hamas and Gaza factions, from Israel’s part it was a just, defensive war. [Mathematicians know that when you check a proof for mistakes, every application of word "Obvious" is a red flag.] How defensive it is to shoot at any person from Gaza who approaches withing 1000 feet from the fence? Is there ANY place in the world with such a practice? How defensive it is to shoot at any boat further than 3 miles from the shore? Is there ANY place in the world with such a practice? How defensive it is to kill people on the basis of their alleged intentions and claim that it does not violate peace/ceasefire? How defensive it is to prohibit shoes, legumes, pasta, crayons, writing paper etc.? In the name of security!!! Is there ANY place in the world with such a practice? Clearly, the idea of "security" is twisted in Israel in an absurd way. Security of the state can be compromised by allowing young people invited by Sharek Youth Forum to proceed on bicycles, but not in buses. Security of the state can be compromised if Gaza imports humus with flavoring additives (but plain humus was decreed OK sometime in 2009). What would happen if Palestinians managed to enhance their security by banning import of legumes (except for dry peas), shoes, leather etc. by Israel? Perhaps peace would erupt in ME? Actually, the last question is not rhetorical. If there will be a coalition of Muslim countries trying their hand in the most prestigious endeavor, "humanitarian intervention", blockade with "humanitarian exceptions" will be an obvious and already tried method, and why bother reinventing the wheel if one can copy practices from the past? Shlomo, and me in brackets

Ayla, it’s not that I justify Gaza war. It was a horror – how can I justify it? [Surprisingly, you have found a way!]

I’m just saying the obvious: this war was not started by Israel, but by Hamas and Gaza factions, from Israel’s part it was a just, defensive war. [Mathematicians know that when you check a proof for mistakes, every application of word "Obvious" is a red flag.]

How defensive it is to shoot at any person from Gaza who approaches withing 1000 feet from the fence? Is there ANY place in the world with such a practice?

How defensive it is to shoot at any boat further than 3 miles from the shore? Is there ANY place in the world with such a practice?

How defensive it is to kill people on the basis of their alleged intentions and claim that it does not violate peace/ceasefire?

How defensive it is to prohibit shoes, legumes, pasta, crayons, writing paper etc.? In the name of security!!! Is there ANY place in the world with such a practice?

Clearly, the idea of “security” is twisted in Israel in an absurd way. Security of the state can be compromised by allowing young people invited by Sharek Youth Forum to proceed on bicycles, but not in buses. Security of the state can be compromised if Gaza imports humus with flavoring additives (but plain humus was decreed OK sometime in 2009).

What would happen if Palestinians managed to enhance their security by banning import of legumes (except for dry peas), shoes, leather etc. by Israel? Perhaps peace would erupt in ME?

Actually, the last question is not rhetorical. If there will be a coalition of Muslim countries trying their hand in the most prestigious endeavor, “humanitarian intervention”, blockade with “humanitarian exceptions” will be an obvious and already tried method, and why bother reinventing the wheel if one can copy practices from the past?

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