Comments on: The two-state solution will die in September http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Sun, 19 May 2013 21:44:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: MarkR http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/comment-page-1/#comment-18098 MarkR Fri, 05 Aug 2011 04:52:44 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=19936#comment-18098 Mr. Ben Israel hits the nail on the head. The discussion all year was that Abbas would not go to the UN if the Palestinians and the Israels would get back to the negotiating table. Netanyahu said any time any place, but Abbas placed false roadblocks like settlement building as an excuse. Facts are proven in the past that buildings have been and can be abandoned by Israel... So what the real excuse for not talking? Putting up a facade then blaming Israel (and world opinion goes out of its way to agree ). Bottom line its not wanting to talk or to be cornered (then blamed)like his predecessor, Arafat, is the only true conclusion. The Palestinians cannot or will not give up what they truly want (and still do not have), East Jerusalem. And they will not accept that they cannot invade the rest of greater Israel with generations of descendants of peoples they have held in perpetual UN concentration camps, otherwise known as refugee camps (and run by a proven Anti-Semite egging it on). Or agree for Israel to be a Jewish state G-d forbid! But Sharon realized that a one state solution is unsustainable, and so too I believe has Netanyahu... But two states are almost impossible to negotiate when the other side has actually admitted that is NOT their true aim. Mr. Ben Israel hits the nail on the head. The discussion all year was that Abbas would not go to the UN if the Palestinians and the Israels would get back to the negotiating table. Netanyahu said any time any place, but Abbas placed false roadblocks like settlement building as an excuse. Facts are proven in the past that buildings have been and can be abandoned by Israel… So what the real excuse for not talking? Putting up a facade then blaming Israel (and world opinion goes out of its way to agree ). Bottom line its not wanting to talk or to be cornered (then blamed)like his predecessor, Arafat, is the only true conclusion.

The Palestinians cannot or will not give up what they truly want (and still do not have), East Jerusalem. And they will not accept that they cannot invade the rest of greater Israel with generations of descendants of peoples they have held in perpetual UN concentration camps, otherwise known as refugee camps (and run by a proven Anti-Semite egging it on). Or agree for Israel to be a Jewish state G-d forbid!

But Sharon realized that a one state solution is unsustainable, and so too I believe has Netanyahu… But two states are almost impossible to negotiate when the other side has actually admitted that is NOT their true aim.

]]> By: Art Hebert http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/comment-page-1/#comment-17979 Art Hebert Thu, 04 Aug 2011 02:33:28 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=19936#comment-17979 I believe that one should abandon any thought of a two-state or one-state solution. The number one agenda of the past several Israeli governments has been and remains the removal of all Palestinians from Palestine. Consider the current landscape of Palestine. Consider the multifaceted obstacles the Palestinians must overcome. The indefatigable increase in settlements coupled with regular military incursions into Palestine will bring to fruition a pure Jewish state with no Palestinian presence. I believe that one should abandon any thought of a two-state or one-state solution. The number one agenda of the past several Israeli governments has been and remains the removal of all Palestinians from Palestine. Consider the current landscape of Palestine. Consider the multifaceted obstacles the Palestinians must overcome. The indefatigable increase in settlements coupled with regular military incursions into Palestine will bring to fruition a pure Jewish state with no Palestinian presence.

]]> By: Darius http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/comment-page-1/#comment-17955 Darius Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:28:56 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=19936#comment-17955 Negotiations are doomed. What is needed is binding arbitration enforced by the UN Security Council. Negotiations are doomed. What is needed is binding arbitration enforced by the UN Security Council.

]]> By: Robb http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/comment-page-1/#comment-17877 Robb Wed, 03 Aug 2011 01:01:49 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=19936#comment-17877 The two state solution was never a very good one. Whatever Palestine came out of it would be a de-facto Israeli client state, there to provide a pool of cheap and desperate labor for Israeli industry. A two state solution could only ever work if Israel was willing to pay out reparations, not just to the state (corruption would siphon those to swiss bank accounts no doubt) but to every private Palestinian citizen, both living in the OT and those living in refugee camps elsewhere. The two state solution was never a very good one. Whatever Palestine came out of it would be a de-facto Israeli client state, there to provide a pool of cheap and desperate labor for Israeli industry. A two state solution could only ever work if Israel was willing to pay out reparations, not just to the state (corruption would siphon those to swiss bank accounts no doubt) but to every private Palestinian citizen, both living in the OT and those living in refugee camps elsewhere.

]]> By: Seymour Alexander http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/comment-page-1/#comment-17876 Seymour Alexander Wed, 03 Aug 2011 00:27:15 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=19936#comment-17876 A question: If you could take over a small relatively poor country in the middle east with a minimum of effort or alternatively by expending a bigger and more sustained effort take control the biggest super power in the world which one would you choose? A question: If you could take over a small relatively poor country in the middle east with a minimum of effort or alternatively by expending a bigger and more sustained effort take control the biggest super power in the world which one would you choose?

]]> By: Richard Witty http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/comment-page-1/#comment-17874 Richard Witty Tue, 02 Aug 2011 23:02:38 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=19936#comment-17874 The two state solution never dies, as so long as the communities think of themselves as separate people's, they will desire to self-govern rather than be governed by an oppressive or even potentially suppressive very slight majority. What might die is the assumption that the settlements can be part of sovereign Israel. They might have to accept being part of sovereign Palestine, and as Palestinian citizens abiding by Palestinian law. If once the extent of the settlements permanently preclude a contiguous West Bank, then if the settlers or Israel refuse to accept being Palestinian citizens, then it will be a single state. An integrated single state currently is a forced marriage, prone to conflict. The only possible alternative is a Vermont/New Hampshire participation in a federation. Two states, but in a federation. For those that don't know Vermont and New Hampshire are about the size of Israel/Palestine (maybe a little smaller), divided by the Connecticut River (a small river). Vermont is politically very liberal. New Hampshire is relatively conservative. The land is the same, but even crossing the river, the communities are connected but distinct. "We will never recognize Israel" stated by Hamas, is as much an obstacle to EITHER a two-state or a single state, as the settlements. The two state solution never dies, as so long as the communities think of themselves as separate people’s, they will desire to self-govern rather than be governed by an oppressive or even potentially suppressive very slight majority.

What might die is the assumption that the settlements can be part of sovereign Israel. They might have to accept being part of sovereign Palestine, and as Palestinian citizens abiding by Palestinian law.

If once the extent of the settlements permanently preclude a contiguous West Bank, then if the settlers or Israel refuse to accept being Palestinian citizens, then it will be a single state.

An integrated single state currently is a forced marriage, prone to conflict.

The only possible alternative is a Vermont/New Hampshire participation in a federation. Two states, but in a federation.

For those that don’t know Vermont and New Hampshire are about the size of Israel/Palestine (maybe a little smaller), divided by the Connecticut River (a small river). Vermont is politically very liberal. New Hampshire is relatively conservative.

The land is the same, but even crossing the river, the communities are connected but distinct.

“We will never recognize Israel” stated by Hamas, is as much an obstacle to EITHER a two-state or a single state, as the settlements.

]]> By: directrob http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/comment-page-1/#comment-17829 directrob Tue, 02 Aug 2011 09:28:46 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=19936#comment-17829 Reading of maps has been a long lost skill. The West Bank is now Israeli with a large number of Palestinian enclaves. See: www.btselem.org/maps . You could also check for yourself with google earth. Reading of maps has been a long lost skill. The West Bank is now Israeli with a large number of Palestinian enclaves. See: http://www.btselem.org/maps
.
You could also check for yourself with google earth.

]]> By: Elli Sacks http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/comment-page-1/#comment-17826 Elli Sacks Tue, 02 Aug 2011 08:31:34 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=19936#comment-17826 The "death" of the two-state solution is not a result of changing demographics but of changing attitudes. While the number of settlers continues to be on the rise, the increase east of the separation barrier is small and the geographic area that the settlers encompass is more or less the same as it was 10 years ago. The settlements are no more and no less of the threat to the two-state solution than they were at the beginning of the Oslo process. The “death” of the two-state solution is not a result of changing demographics but of changing attitudes. While the number of settlers continues to be on the rise, the increase east of the separation barrier is small and the geographic area that the settlers encompass is more or less the same as it was 10 years ago. The settlements are no more and no less of the threat to the two-state solution than they were at the beginning of the Oslo process.

]]> By: John Bradford http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/comment-page-1/#comment-17825 John Bradford Tue, 02 Aug 2011 08:02:01 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=19936#comment-17825 "the two-state solution can be taken off the drawing board". Well, perhaps, but this problem has existed for many years, with each new twist and turn generating similar sorts of responses. In a year's time, the two-state solution is likely still to be around. "the immense growth of settlements that would obstruct any option of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank". Well, perhaps, but the existence of Palestinians in Palestine in the late 1940s didn't stop the creation of Israel, so why should the existence of Israelis in Palestine stop the creation of Palestine? Most Israelis will have to move out, as most Palestinians did. What's wrong with a one-state solution? Have you read Ali Abunimah's book? If Obama wins next year, then perhaps as a second-term president, he may feel better able to resist the American pro-Israeli lobbies. “the two-state solution can be taken off the drawing board”. Well, perhaps, but this problem has existed for many years, with each new twist and turn generating similar sorts of responses. In a year’s time, the two-state solution is likely still to be around.
“the immense growth of settlements that would obstruct any option of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank”. Well, perhaps, but the existence of Palestinians in Palestine in the late 1940s didn’t stop the creation of Israel, so why should the existence of Israelis in Palestine stop the creation of Palestine? Most Israelis will have to move out, as most Palestinians did.
What’s wrong with a one-state solution? Have you read Ali Abunimah’s book?
If Obama wins next year, then perhaps as a second-term president, he may feel better able to resist the American pro-Israeli lobbies.

]]> By: RichardNYC http://972mag.com/the-two-state-solution-will-die-in-september/19936/comment-page-1/#comment-17823 RichardNYC Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:38:02 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=19936#comment-17823 Despite the big number of settlers, they aren't really so spread out. Something close to 50,000 live east of the barrier. That's not really a lot compared to 2.5 million Palestinians. There's something scary about current omens, but it doesn't seem like Israelis are really prepared to surrender their security to Arabs anytime soon - and the demographics on the ground still indicate that they won't have to. Despite the big number of settlers, they aren’t really so spread out. Something close to 50,000 live east of the barrier. That’s not really a lot compared to 2.5 million Palestinians. There’s something scary about current omens, but it doesn’t seem like Israelis are really prepared to surrender their security to Arabs anytime soon – and the demographics on the ground still indicate that they won’t have to.

]]>