Comments on: The scandal of Israeli police brutality – against Jews

By: The Zionist Scenario — Now And In The Future (An Analysis) | Brave New World

Thu, 17 May 2012 10:36:34 +0000

[...] territory. For instance, it is public knowledge in Israel (if not the U.S.) that “police brutality against Palestinians has been routine for decades.” Those who, despite all, refuse to leave, are being [...]

By: dickerson3870

dickerson3870 — Thu, 17 May 2012 01:30:38 +0000

RE: “I used to think that once Israeli Jews found themselves the targets of police brutality, they’d stop doubting the accounts by Palestinians and “internationals” of their experiences at the hands of soldiers, police, Border Police, Shin Bet agents, etc. But no. . . ” ~ Derfner

FROM GEORGE ORWELL: “…All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side. . .
. . . The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. . .” ~ George Orwell, “Notes on Nationalism” (1945)

By: Arnon Schwanzinger

Arnon Schwanzinger — Tue, 15 May 2012 06:33:39 +0000

Elisabeth,
I understand your interpretation of Larry’s words. I, however, don’t see how a “shut up about [brutality to Jews]” translates to “urge them to protest [brutality to Jews AND Arabs]“.
Larry’s as much as relegated the duty of protesting brutality against Palestinians to “anarchists”. And no one wants to be that.
The way I see it he’s dismissing the entire move off-hand. “Their outcry is kind of hollow,” he says.
-
Larry,
You may step in and correct my interpretation of your words anytime.

By: Elisabeth

Elisabeth — Mon, 14 May 2012 21:54:16 +0000

Arnon, it is clear that when Larry says “people should shut up about police brutality against Jews”, he means to urge them to protest brutality against Palestinians equally.

By: Arnon Schwanzinger

Arnon Schwanzinger — Mon, 14 May 2012 17:23:22 +0000

Seriously, Larry,
These are people who knowing endanger their privileges so as to show that they are just that – privileges. And not rights, as we have been lead to believe.
As you yourself note, only the “anarchists” [quotations in the original] speak openly about the brutality used against the Palestinians.
Yet when centrist people show that the brutality is not restricted to the Arabs and can quite easily spread to the whole society, you suggest “people should shut up about police brutality against Jews”.
Doing as you suggest would imply maintaining the status quo – whereby only Arabs are brutalized, and only “anarchists” speak up about the injustice and the brutality.
ie. no change.

By: Greg Pollock

Greg Pollock — Mon, 14 May 2012 05:59:13 +0000

Rights are not majoritarian. Until your courts declare their institutional boundaries I think the abuses will amplify. The courts will not intervene for the sake of those being abused, but to prevent security from enlarging its perrogative against the courts.
.
I see three branches to Israeli government: the Knesset with its administrative wing, the security establishment which is beginning to absorb the police proper, and the courts. Only the courts can alter this continued slippage against civil and human rights. There may well have to be more abuses before anything happens. But I think the security apparatus will eventually force the courts’ hand.
.
Constitutional process is now becoming entwined with the occupation. An inevitable, necessary phase.

By: Rehmat

Rehmat — Mon, 14 May 2012 01:09:13 +0000

Lest I called ‘a Canadian anti-Semite’ – I will let Miko Peled, son of Israeli Gen. Matti Peled, an Israeli soldier and brother of Professor Nurit Peled-Elhanan response on Israeli police/army brutality against Palestinian and Jews in Israel.

http://rehmat1.com/2012/02/27/israel-as-seen-by-an-israeli-generals-son/

By: Arnon Schwanzinger

Arnon Schwanzinger — Mon, 14 May 2012 00:32:31 +0000

There’s the sham that is the “Jewish and democratic” state.
Poetic or not, when the same (or milder) police violence is directed at Jews – ie. those who partake in the aforementioned democracy – then this does indeed change how the Israelis view “the official version”.
Change, however, is incremental.
If more Israelis see the same tactics used against them, then they would be less likely to dismiss accounts of Arabs suffering brutality from security forces.
Already there is talk of Shin-Bet agents in protests in Tel-Aviv. Already there are public figures (Dana Modan) appearing on Israeli TV (a medium that is generally loath to even acknowledge the protest) and saying the protests should be against the occupation, not the housing crisis.
So whether or not this is “poetic justice”, as you put it, the point is it’s getting across. Some of that callousness is being eroded. Slowly.
I’m not sure what your stance is on this – but it somehow feels unfavorable.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Sun, 13 May 2012 23:42:34 +0000

Caden,
If you notice, I’ve been banned from Mondoweiss, after posting there for 4 years, and an old family friend of Phil Weiss.

I think the comments are often ludicrous, malicious, self-talk, and at the same time the 180 degree rejection of any criticism of Israel is also ludicrous, malicious, and self-talk.

Better that we actually hear and actively construct good relations with those willing to, and there are many.

The reactive approach ignores the many.

I use Abraham as my example, “if there are 50 righteous will you spare the city?, how about 40, 30, 20, 10?”

How about 40%, 30%, 20%, 10%?

By: Philos

Philos — Sun, 13 May 2012 19:51:21 +0000

Super like