Comments on: Solidarity vs. militarism: The Zionist contract and the struggle to define J14 http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Thu, 23 May 2013 14:16:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Richard Witty http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/comment-page-1/#comment-68085 Richard Witty Mon, 09 Jul 2012 09:49:10 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50311#comment-68085 XYZ, In anti-Vietnam marches of the early 70's, there were often communist parties represented at the marchest, carrying big signs, implying that they were authoritative, and some combination of "join us/we speak for you". I calmly wore my smile as my poster. Go, talk (mostly listen). Organizing comes from hearing of people's needs, not so much of their positions. Hearing of people's needs is not incompatible between anarchists hearing of people's needs, haredi, consumer advocates, legislators. The question is of what one does with listening. Organizing for mutual good? or imposition of a thought-police? The organizing for mutual good is the only substantive test of the J14' success. If people end up helping each other (including those that aren't there), then it is a success. If they end up talking to themselves only, then it is a failure. XYZ,
In anti-Vietnam marches of the early 70′s, there were often communist parties represented at the marchest, carrying big signs, implying that they were authoritative, and some combination of “join us/we speak for you”.

I calmly wore my smile as my poster.

Go, talk (mostly listen).

Organizing comes from hearing of people’s needs, not so much of their positions.

Hearing of people’s needs is not incompatible between anarchists hearing of people’s needs, haredi, consumer advocates, legislators.

The question is of what one does with listening. Organizing for mutual good? or imposition of a thought-police?

The organizing for mutual good is the only substantive test of the J14′ success. If people end up helping each other (including those that aren’t there), then it is a success.

If they end up talking to themselves only, then it is a failure.

]]> By: XYZ http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/comment-page-1/#comment-68057 XYZ Mon, 09 Jul 2012 02:56:59 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50311#comment-68057 Richard- Neither would I nor my friends would participate in ANY demonstration along with people carrying pictures of Che Guevara or red flags or with people denouncing "capitalism", no matter what it was they claim they want. As I side issue, could someone explain why we there are people wearing clown suits or masks at these demonstrations ? I interpret it as a message saying "the whole system is a joke". Richard-
Neither would I nor my friends would participate in ANY demonstration along with people carrying pictures of Che Guevara or red flags or with people denouncing “capitalism”, no matter what it was they claim they want.

As I side issue, could someone explain why we there are people wearing clown suits or masks at these demonstrations ? I interpret it as a message saying “the whole system is a joke”.

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/comment-page-1/#comment-68047 Kolumn9 Sun, 08 Jul 2012 23:39:54 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50311#comment-68047 What is fascinating is how tiny the J14 protests are this year. It seems that it is gradually dissipating as its ideology keeps moving further and further left on both economic and political issues. It is almost like shouting extremist left-wing slogans has the impact of driving away the mainstream. Who could have guessed? . The revolution has been cancelled due to lack of interest. What is fascinating is how tiny the J14 protests are this year. It seems that it is gradually dissipating as its ideology keeps moving further and further left on both economic and political issues. It is almost like shouting extremist left-wing slogans has the impact of driving away the mainstream. Who could have guessed?
.

The revolution has been cancelled due to lack of interest.

]]> By: Richard Witty http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/comment-page-1/#comment-68040 Richard Witty Sun, 08 Jul 2012 22:04:59 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50311#comment-68040 XYZ, To the extent that the orthodox provide services, that are of the mutual aid variety, they are part of J14. To the extent that that aid is not discrimminatory (however large or small the slicing), then they are an example to be applied and admired. You could participate in that, fully, rather than ridicule it. XYZ,
To the extent that the orthodox provide services, that are of the mutual aid variety, they are part of J14.

To the extent that that aid is not discrimminatory (however large or small the slicing), then they are an example to be applied and admired.

You could participate in that, fully, rather than ridicule it.

]]> By: Henry Lowi http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/comment-page-1/#comment-68018 Henry Lowi Sun, 08 Jul 2012 16:45:00 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50311#comment-68018 Political differentiation within the "social justice" movement is not a bad thing. To the extent it contributes to political clarification, it is a good thing. It is very important to maintain an inclusive and activist focus. I have suggested raising a call to set up tent-camps all over the country with the demands: "No to Police violence. No to IDF violence. Solidarity for social justice for all." That is a principled a potentially very broad appeal. At the same time, regime-sponsored militarism masquerading as "social justice" must be confronted by a radical social justice agenda and an anti-militarist agenda. The Israeli militarists, racists, and colonialists want to impose their values and their control and their discipline on the Haredim and on the Palestinian oppressed. We oppose them unconditionally. But, the revolutionary answer to militarism is not pacifism. As long as there is a military, it doesn't make sense to have everyone armed and trained except for the oppressed. We should treat the right to bear arms and the right to military training as the right of a free populace. We should find the opportunities to raise the demands: "Right to arming and military training for all, from the River to the Sea. Recognize the right of anyone to object to participate in arming and military training for reasons of conscience. Impose trade-union supervision and community-based supervision on the conditions of military service." That will counteract militarism and build up a revolutionary community spirit of equality and solidarity. In the short term, however, there is a need to reach out to those outside downtown Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and encourage them to re-activate themselves and re-organize a country-wide social justice movement with a clear anti-capitalist and anti-militarist focus. Put the people, all the people, at the centre, not the bankers and not the "state". Political differentiation within the “social justice” movement is not a bad thing. To the extent it contributes to political clarification, it is a good thing. It is very important to maintain an inclusive and activist focus. I have suggested raising a call to set up tent-camps all over the country with the demands: “No to Police violence. No to IDF violence. Solidarity for social justice for all.” That is a principled a potentially very broad appeal.

At the same time, regime-sponsored militarism masquerading as “social justice” must be confronted by a radical social justice agenda and an anti-militarist agenda. The Israeli militarists, racists, and colonialists want to impose their values and their control and their discipline on the Haredim and on the Palestinian oppressed. We oppose them unconditionally. But, the revolutionary answer to militarism is not pacifism. As long as there is a military, it doesn’t make sense to have everyone armed and trained except for the oppressed. We should treat the right to bear arms and the right to military training as the right of a free populace. We should find the opportunities to raise the demands: “Right to arming and military training for all, from the River to the Sea. Recognize the right of anyone to object to participate in arming and military training for reasons of conscience. Impose trade-union supervision and community-based supervision on the conditions of military service.”

That will counteract militarism and build up a revolutionary community spirit of equality and solidarity.

In the short term, however, there is a need to reach out to those outside downtown Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and encourage them to re-activate themselves and re-organize a country-wide social justice movement with a clear anti-capitalist and anti-militarist focus. Put the people, all the people, at the centre, not the bankers and not the “state”.

]]> By: ori http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/comment-page-1/#comment-68017 ori Sun, 08 Jul 2012 16:35:24 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50311#comment-68017 yesterday and also on other occasions i have been participating in the j14th protest. as far as i can tell most participant's political views range between 'Meretz left' and what is left-of-Meretz, adding all sorts of communist organizations and sympathizers (not that there is something wrong with that:)). i doubt if there is any substantial group of "new comers" or previous-centrists. it is also apparent that some of the "right-wing-mizrachi-that-bibi-disapointed" ("meuchzavei likud") are quit dissatisfied with this situation. these are far-left demonstrations where social justice in its narrow sense diminishes in importance with each demo. i think that eventually these characteristics will rise to public attention and there will be much less sympathy for j14. i hope i'm wrong. ori yesterday and also on other occasions i have been participating in the j14th protest. as far as i can tell most participant’s political views range between ‘Meretz left’ and what is left-of-Meretz, adding all sorts of communist organizations and sympathizers (not that there is something wrong with that:)). i doubt if there is any substantial group of “new comers” or previous-centrists.
it is also apparent that some of the “right-wing-mizrachi-that-bibi-disapointed” (“meuchzavei likud”) are quit dissatisfied with this situation. these are far-left demonstrations where social justice in its narrow sense diminishes in importance with each demo.
i think that eventually these characteristics will rise to public attention and there will be much less sympathy for j14.
i hope i’m wrong.
ori

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/comment-page-1/#comment-68016 sh Sun, 08 Jul 2012 16:08:57 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50311#comment-68016 "(One well-known example is Yad Sarah which loans out medical equipment.)" Rents not loans. And, yes, I know the site says loans, but try it. “(One well-known example is Yad Sarah which loans out medical equipment.)”
Rents not loans. And, yes, I know the site says loans, but try it.

]]> By: XYZ http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/comment-page-1/#comment-68010 XYZ Sun, 08 Jul 2012 15:01:54 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50311#comment-68010 Richard- The Orthodox/religious sector of society has for years operated organizations like those you mentioned, whose services are open to all Israelis, both religious and non-religious Jews in addition to the Arab population, and they did it on a voluntary, NON-POLITICAL basis. No pictures of Che Guevara, no demonstrations blocking roads causing inconvenience to many people and without smashing bank windows. Without being against ANYONE, capitalist or not. (One well-known example is Yad Sarah which loans out medical equipment.) Richard-
The Orthodox/religious sector of society has for years operated organizations like those you mentioned, whose services are open to all Israelis, both religious and non-religious Jews in addition to the Arab population, and they did it on a voluntary, NON-POLITICAL basis. No pictures of Che Guevara, no demonstrations blocking roads causing inconvenience to many people and without smashing bank windows. Without being against ANYONE, capitalist or not.
(One well-known example is Yad Sarah which loans out medical equipment.)

]]> By: Prometheus http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/comment-page-1/#comment-68008 Prometheus Sun, 08 Jul 2012 14:43:01 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50311#comment-68008 "assuming that they actually change policies." They won't. And if they will they will only worsen it. “assuming that they actually change policies.”
They won’t. And if they will they will only worsen it.

]]> By: Richard Witty http://972mag.com/solidarity-vs-militarism-the-zionist-contract-and-the-struggle-to-define-j14/50311/comment-page-1/#comment-67999 Richard Witty Sun, 08 Jul 2012 13:32:53 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50311#comment-67999 Che Guevara in a poster doesn't mean anything. There are MANY within the J14 movement. Its a good thing. XYZ, Find what you have in common and participate in those areas. If 100 food buying clubs in Tel Aviv/Jaffa start up and you join one of them, then J14 will have been a success for you. If 30 free health clinics open up and someone from the clinic comes to your home in an emergency, then J14 will have been a success for you. If 20 skills centers open, then J14 will have been a success. If the government shifts from likud/israel beitanhu to likud/kadima/labor, then maybe that is a partially success, assuming that they actually change policies. Che Guevara in a poster doesn’t mean anything.

There are MANY within the J14 movement. Its a good thing.

XYZ,
Find what you have in common and participate in those areas. If 100 food buying clubs in Tel Aviv/Jaffa start up and you join one of them, then J14 will have been a success for you.

If 30 free health clinics open up and someone from the clinic comes to your home in an emergency, then J14 will have been a success for you.

If 20 skills centers open, then J14 will have been a success.

If the government shifts from likud/israel beitanhu to likud/kadima/labor, then maybe that is a partially success, assuming that they actually change policies.

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