Comments on: Social protestors: Do we share a vision for Israel’s future? http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Sat, 18 May 2013 09:55:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/comment-page-1/#comment-19088 Greg Pollock Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:52:08 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=20380#comment-19088 Ben Israel, I think you are right that a call for a constitutional convention must be wide; when one calls for such a convention, one must be willing to risk defeat on some issues at that convention. I also think a district system as advocated by Steve Forman,above, might work well. But I am not an Israeli and have no real sense of Israeli social-political society. A convention would be a sampling, a measure, of this society; they should decide. A party call for a convention exposes that party to defeat on the issue of the call and also later, on issues at the convention itself. But if you do not risk yourself thusly, how will you ever breach even partially the divides noted, e.g., by Ben Israel? Ben Israel, I think you are right that a call for a constitutional convention must be wide; when one calls for such a convention, one must be willing to risk defeat on some issues at that convention. I also think a district system as advocated by Steve Forman,above, might work well. But I am not an Israeli and have no real sense of Israeli social-political society. A convention would be a sampling, a measure, of this society; they should decide. A party call for a convention exposes that party to defeat on the issue of the call and also later, on issues at the convention itself. But if you do not risk yourself thusly, how will you ever breach even partially the divides noted, e.g., by Ben Israel?

]]> By: Steve Forman http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/comment-page-1/#comment-18958 Steve Forman Tue, 09 Aug 2011 17:46:04 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=20380#comment-18958 I have one simple idea that might "kick-start" the recognized need for Israelis to take responsibility for actions in the personal, societal and political spheres. The political system is structurally dysfunctional due to lack of accountability. This lack of accountability seeps through society as you have pointed out. I suggest to restructure the electoral system to one that creates responsibility by elected officials. Create an electoral system that is representational, officials must be elected from specific districts, not from a list. This way specific politicians can be held accountable by their constituents. Have the knesset pass this legislation then dissolve. This will lead to real elections that promise accountability. Perhaps J14 Movement can adapt this idea... Bueno suerte. I have one simple idea that might “kick-start” the recognized need for Israelis to take responsibility for actions in the personal, societal and political spheres.

The political system is structurally dysfunctional due to lack of accountability. This lack of accountability seeps through society as you have pointed out.

I suggest to restructure the electoral system to one that creates responsibility by elected officials. Create an electoral system that is representational, officials must be elected from specific districts, not from a list. This way specific politicians can be held accountable by their constituents.

Have the knesset pass this legislation then dissolve. This will lead to real elections that promise accountability. Perhaps J14 Movement can adapt this idea… Bueno suerte.

]]> By: Ben Israel http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/comment-page-1/#comment-18942 Ben Israel Tue, 09 Aug 2011 15:10:16 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=20380#comment-18942 I am all for Israel having a constitution (for those who don't know, I am an Orthodox/religious-pro-settler right-winger groups that have been viewed as opposing a constituion in the past) but it has to be based on as wide a consensus as possible, something like Greg has advocated here. We will NOT accept a constitution, drawn up by Left-wing groups such as that of Arik Carmon which would be rammed down the country's throat by a possible narrow Left-wing gov't in the future, the way Oslo and the destruction of Gush Katif were pushed through. That would be a disaster. The "price tag" attacks against Arabs some right-wing extremists are carrying out are a direct result of Sharon's spitting in the face of his supporters and betraying his promise NOT to destroy Gush Katif. Many on the religious Right feel that if the gov't won't listen to us, what is the point of using constitutional methods to get government action. I am totally opposed to these "price tag" actions, but the gov't must not push ideological groups into the corner where they feel they have not choice but to break the law. Ramming through a Leftist constitution would be even more dangerous. I would say the same if someone like Avigdor Lieberman tried to push through a constitution that would take rights away from the Israel Arabs and the political Left. I am all for Israel having a constitution (for those who don’t know, I am an Orthodox/religious-pro-settler right-winger groups that have been viewed as opposing a constituion in the past) but it has to be based on as wide a consensus as possible, something like Greg has advocated here. We will NOT accept a constitution, drawn up by Left-wing groups such as that of Arik Carmon which would be rammed down the country’s throat by a possible narrow Left-wing gov’t in the future, the way Oslo and the destruction of Gush Katif were pushed through.
That would be a disaster. The “price tag” attacks against Arabs some right-wing extremists are carrying out are a direct result of Sharon’s spitting in the face of his supporters and betraying his promise NOT to destroy Gush Katif. Many on the religious Right feel that if the gov’t won’t listen to us, what is the point of using constitutional methods to get government action. I am totally opposed to these “price tag” actions, but the gov’t must not push ideological groups into the corner where they feel they have not choice but to break the law. Ramming through a Leftist constitution would be even more dangerous. I would say the same if someone like Avigdor Lieberman tried to push through a constitution that would take rights away from the Israel Arabs and the political Left.

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/comment-page-1/#comment-18905 Greg Pollock Tue, 09 Aug 2011 06:21:44 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=20380#comment-18905 I meant not that the Knesset elect members to a commission, but that the Knesset call a general election for delegates. That is, the convention is derived directly from the people (a loaded word, but others will use it anyway). I could see giving your President power to appoint some delegates too. The point would be that soverignty is returning to the people in convention. I see no way to get to that general election of delegates save through an enabling act of the Knesset. I would hold that the Knesset cannot in itself FORM the convention by selecting delegates. But the first line of battle would be electing MK's willing to make the call. This might create a wedge issue, expanding the participating political specturm. I meant not that the Knesset elect members to a commission, but that the Knesset call a general election for delegates. That is, the convention is derived directly from the people (a loaded word, but others will use it anyway). I could see giving your President power to appoint some delegates too. The point would be that soverignty is returning to the people in convention. I see no way to get to that general election of delegates save through an enabling act of the Knesset. I would hold that the Knesset cannot in itself FORM the convention by selecting delegates. But the first line of battle would be electing MK’s willing to make the call. This might create a wedge issue, expanding the participating political specturm.

]]> By: Larry Derfner http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/comment-page-1/#comment-18904 Larry Derfner Tue, 09 Aug 2011 06:16:51 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=20380#comment-18904 I guess the question is whether these protests will lead to deeper, lasting change or be a passing thing. I vote for the former because I think these protests are really a return to normalcy for Israel - it is again a vibrant democracy, which it's stopped being for the last decade (broken up by the pull-out from Gaza). Prior to these demos, Israel became effectively a one-right-wing-party country, with only marginal voices objecting to either foreign/military or economic policy. That's abnormal in Israeli history. The protests have returned us to our normal selves at least on the subject of economics, and so long as people are hurting economically, there will be a fight over the economic direction of the country - like there always was before. And that, I think, is the minimum - I expect the debate over foreign/military policy to return, too, in a process jump-started by these protests. I guess the question is whether these protests will lead to deeper, lasting change or be a passing thing. I vote for the former because I think these protests are really a return to normalcy for Israel – it is again a vibrant democracy, which it’s stopped being for the last decade (broken up by the pull-out from Gaza). Prior to these demos, Israel became effectively a one-right-wing-party country, with only marginal voices objecting to either foreign/military or economic policy. That’s abnormal in Israeli history. The protests have returned us to our normal selves at least on the subject of economics, and so long as people are hurting economically, there will be a fight over the economic direction of the country – like there always was before. And that, I think, is the minimum – I expect the debate over foreign/military policy to return, too, in a process jump-started by these protests.

]]> By: Dahlia Scheindlin http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/comment-page-1/#comment-18898 Dahlia Scheindlin Tue, 09 Aug 2011 05:31:38 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=20380#comment-18898 To be sure, that's the ideal route. But I have no doubt that any such body - if elected by this Knesset - would suffer the same problem. To that end, it would be important to include civil society groups who have been working on constitution drafts for years (there have been at least 3-4 such initiatives) with panels of experts - legal scholars, former judges, etc, to be involved - or perhaps even a group appointed by the President. I am still hopeful that it can be done, but would have to make serious efforts to balance the influence of the Knesset. And no need to apologize on the length, with such helpful substance - just a thought for the future. To be sure, that’s the ideal route. But I have no doubt that any such body – if elected by this Knesset – would suffer the same problem. To that end, it would be important to include civil society groups who have been working on constitution drafts for years (there have been at least 3-4 such initiatives) with panels of experts – legal scholars, former judges, etc, to be involved – or perhaps even a group appointed by the President. I am still hopeful that it can be done, but would have to make serious efforts to balance the influence of the Knesset. And no need to apologize on the length, with such helpful substance – just a thought for the future.

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/comment-page-1/#comment-18897 Greg Pollock Tue, 09 Aug 2011 05:24:41 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=20380#comment-18897 Length comes from wanting to make a difference (foolishly). I understand, and am sorry...The Knesset, as a sitting legislature, cannot draft a Constitution; they would have to call for the election of a separate body to that end, and, ideally, the produced document would be subject to a plebicite. That call for a convention would open the political specturm. So, in fantasy, a separate election for delegates would create an independent convention, with its product submitted to the electorate. A new or old party could advocate that such a call be made. Length comes from wanting to make a difference (foolishly). I understand, and am sorry…The Knesset, as a sitting legislature, cannot draft a Constitution; they would have to call for the election of a separate body to that end, and, ideally, the produced document would be subject to a plebicite. That call for a convention would open the political specturm. So, in fantasy, a separate election for delegates would create an independent convention, with its product submitted to the electorate. A new or old party could advocate that such a call be made.

]]> By: Dahlia Scheindlin http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/comment-page-1/#comment-18895 Dahlia Scheindlin Tue, 09 Aug 2011 04:29:10 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=20380#comment-18895 Greg, a very thoughtful response and I agree with almost all of what you write here. The one argument against writing a constitution now is that this Knesset has proven itself to be an enemy of human rights and universal values and some think it would either reject any meaningful constitution or demand such things that would annul the purpose. But the point is sound - I have written about this: http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/the-problem-is-constitutional-1.306401 One thing: in the spirit of fairness to other readers who are frequently asked to keep their comments at a manageable length, I will ask that you try to keep yours a bit shorter - please see our comments policy when you have a chance. But many thanks for your insights. Greg, a very thoughtful response and I agree with almost all of what you write here. The one argument against writing a constitution now is that this Knesset has proven itself to be an enemy of human rights and universal values and some think it would either reject any meaningful constitution or demand such things that would annul the purpose. But the point is sound – I have written about this: http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/the-problem-is-constitutional-1.306401 One thing: in the spirit of fairness to other readers who are frequently asked to keep their comments at a manageable length, I will ask that you try to keep yours a bit shorter – please see our comments policy when you have a chance. But many thanks for your insights.

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/comment-page-1/#comment-18894 Greg Pollock Tue, 09 Aug 2011 03:37:03 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=20380#comment-18894 I think street protests in themselves will gain little, simply because the core economic plight sending people out of their homes, into the streets, cannot be altered in the near future. I think Scheindln is right that there must be a form of self inquiry to keep the feeling of action going--you need an institutional bridge derived from the protests but potentially articulating beyond them. --------------- I am a sideliner, interested in Israel for far too long (yes, so an American, but not Jewish). I have, focusing on your High Court, its sometimes ignored rulings, and the danger of a Knesset nullification of Court power, felt that Israel needs to create a Constitution. The Declaration calls for such, and you cannot get more patriotic than that; and, uniquely for such a document, it specifies rights which must be articulated in a Constitution. A call for a Constitution, perhaps grounded as the plateform of a new party arising from the protests, is open-ended. You may support such a call, even recognize that you, personally, may not like all that is drafted; but this very risk is the foundation of pluralism. A platform actively calling for drafting a Constituion as promised by the '48 founders defers some debate until a Constitutional Convention; but, again, this allows a wider coalition to form around a party, running for the Knesset, on this platform. ----------- Economic redress is short term impossible. Such redress itself will suffer attempted co-optation by Bibi et al. The only way to potentally lock in social justice (whatever it means) is in a Constitution. One may point out that the document will also bind the High Court (but the deck is stacked, for the document must contain the rights listed in the Declaration--again, a unqiue limitation as far as I know). Social justice can be introduced into political discourse by arguing for a Constitution, saving some of the protest momentum. ---------------- The first Constituent Assembly was supposed to draft a Constitution. A Constitutional Convention convenes to limit State power, not assume soverignty as an unchecked legislature (which is what the Knesset is). Simply, the Constituent Assembly, by transforming itslef into the Knesset, usurped soverignty. One may try to restart the process (an uphill battle, but who thought you would be on the steets a month ago?), keeping protests alive, with hope of a different Knesset upon elections, where a call for an INDEPENDENT Consitutional Convention can be made. --------------- I am an outside of no importance. But I have come to firmly beleive that your polity must form a Constitution to escape the whims of various Knessets. I think street protests in themselves will gain little, simply because the core economic plight sending people out of their homes, into the streets, cannot be altered in the near future. I think Scheindln is right that there must be a form of self inquiry to keep the feeling of action going–you need an institutional bridge derived from the protests but potentially articulating beyond them.
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I am a sideliner, interested in Israel for far too long (yes, so an American, but not Jewish). I have, focusing on your High Court, its sometimes ignored rulings, and the danger of a Knesset nullification of Court power, felt that Israel needs to create a Constitution. The Declaration calls for such, and you cannot get more patriotic than that; and, uniquely for such a document, it specifies rights which must be articulated in a Constitution. A call for a Constitution, perhaps grounded as the plateform of a new party arising from the protests, is open-ended. You may support such a call, even recognize that you, personally, may not like all that is drafted; but this very risk is the foundation of pluralism. A platform actively calling for drafting a Constituion as promised by the ’48 founders defers some debate until a Constitutional Convention; but, again, this allows a wider coalition to form around a party, running for the Knesset, on this platform.
———–
Economic redress is short term impossible. Such redress itself will suffer attempted co-optation by Bibi et al. The only way to potentally lock in social justice (whatever it means) is in a Constitution. One may point out that the document will also bind the High Court (but the deck is stacked, for the document must contain the rights listed in the Declaration–again, a unqiue limitation as far as I know). Social justice can be introduced into political discourse by arguing for a Constitution, saving some of the protest momentum.
—————-
The first Constituent Assembly was supposed to draft a Constitution. A Constitutional Convention convenes to limit State power, not assume soverignty as an unchecked legislature (which is what the Knesset is). Simply, the Constituent Assembly, by transforming itslef into the Knesset, usurped soverignty. One may try to restart the process (an uphill battle, but who thought you would be on the steets a month ago?), keeping protests alive, with hope of a different Knesset upon elections, where a call for an INDEPENDENT Consitutional Convention can be made.
—————
I am an outside of no importance. But I have come to firmly beleive that your polity must form a Constitution to escape the whims of various Knessets.

]]> By: Dahlia Scheindlin http://972mag.com/social-protestors-do-we-share-a-vision-for-israels-future/20380/comment-page-1/#comment-18850 Dahlia Scheindlin Mon, 08 Aug 2011 20:22:48 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=20380#comment-18850 Larry, I've gotten numerous responses along the lines that I am overly pessimistic and I feel a bit misunderstood, so I'll try to articulate why. I do not feel that I started off pessimistic, nor am I now. Rather, i am observing, and reflecting on the ideas that occur to me in response to what I see. I am not pessimistic by nature (critical and analytic, yes), but what I'm seeing has not convinced me that those deeper things are being addressed, and I don't just mean the Elephant. I am somewhat prepared to accept that this is a first vital - even historic - step towards unity. but it must be a stage, if things stop here, we won't have made a real change. Finally, this has indeed touched a nerve with me re: not just the Big Issues, but millions of more mundane frustrations that plague daily life and contribute to social malaise here. It seems very out of fashion to say that some of this may be the citizens' responsibility but I'll say it anyway because I believe it. I'd like for this to be an opportunity to look at ourselves more critically too, starting with our own revolutionary behavior/thinking - and I consider that optimistic. Sorry if this has been a rambling response! Larry, I’ve gotten numerous responses along the lines that I am overly pessimistic and I feel a bit misunderstood, so I’ll try to articulate why. I do not feel that I started off pessimistic, nor am I now. Rather, i am observing, and reflecting on the ideas that occur to me in response to what I see. I am not pessimistic by nature (critical and analytic, yes), but what I’m seeing has not convinced me that those deeper things are being addressed, and I don’t just mean the Elephant. I am somewhat prepared to accept that this is a first vital – even historic – step towards unity. but it must be a stage, if things stop here, we won’t have made a real change. Finally, this has indeed touched a nerve with me re: not just the Big Issues, but millions of more mundane frustrations that plague daily life and contribute to social malaise here. It seems very out of fashion to say that some of this may be the citizens’ responsibility but I’ll say it anyway because I believe it. I’d like for this to be an opportunity to look at ourselves more critically too, starting with our own revolutionary behavior/thinking – and I consider that optimistic. Sorry if this has been a rambling response!

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