Comments on: Signs of a transitional moment in the Israeli-Palestinian dynamic http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Sat, 25 May 2013 23:31:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/comment-page-1/#comment-68917 Kolumn9 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 19:47:40 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50930#comment-68917 Sh, Rabbi Froman is considered a right-wing eccentric if it isn't entirely obvious from the article. Not only that, but even he doesn't propose a system of "One Person - One Vote" over the entirety of the land of Israel, but is a proponent of a Palestinian state in the WB where Jewish settlers stay as citizens. My favorite part of the interview which demonstrates his eccentricity: "ההתנחלויות הן אצבעות היד המושטות לשלום" "The settlements are the fingers of a hand reaching out for peace" Sh, Rabbi Froman is considered a right-wing eccentric if it isn’t entirely obvious from the article. Not only that, but even he doesn’t propose a system of “One Person – One Vote” over the entirety of the land of Israel, but is a proponent of a Palestinian state in the WB where Jewish settlers stay as citizens.
My favorite part of the interview which demonstrates his eccentricity:
“ההתנחלויות הן אצבעות היד המושטות לשלום”
“The settlements are the fingers of a hand reaching out for peace”

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/comment-page-1/#comment-68896 sh Tue, 17 Jul 2012 16:36:32 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50930#comment-68896 "NONE of them do or ever would propose a system of “One Person – One Vote”. If you think you saw somebody on the right proposing that, look more carefully and you will find the catch." . Isn't Rabbi Froman considered right wing? There was a long, interesting interview with him in last week's Hebrew Haaretz in which he seems to favor across-the-board equal rights. http://www.haaretz.co.il/magazine/ayelet-shani/1.1774107 “NONE of them do or ever would propose a system of “One Person – One Vote”. If you think you saw somebody on the right proposing that, look more carefully and you will find the catch.”
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Isn’t Rabbi Froman considered right wing? There was a long, interesting interview with him in last week’s Hebrew Haaretz in which he seems to favor across-the-board equal rights. http://www.haaretz.co.il/magazine/ayelet-shani/1.1774107

]]> By: Adam Keller http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/comment-page-1/#comment-68866 Adam Keller Tue, 17 Jul 2012 13:10:56 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50930#comment-68866 "The the mainstream right, and not just the settlers, is becoming a force of change.I think progressive Israelis should give more thought to this dynamic." Yes, we should give a thought to this dynamic - keeping in mind that it is a negative dynamic from which nothing good can possibly come. There are many schemes in the Israeli right wing towards full Israeli sovereignty in the Occupied Territories, but NONE of them include equal rights to the Palestinians. Each and every scheme from the Right always does and always will include some nullifying clause which would make sure that Jews would remain the bosses from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. In some plans it is very obvious Some of them, such as Naftali Benet, propose to annex only the C areas and leave the Palestinians in non-annexed "autonomy" in the A and B enclaves. Others such as Uri Ariel are more subtle, proposing to annex the whole territory and let Palestinians "apply for Israeli citizenship after five years". NONE of them do or ever would propose a system of "One Person - One Vote". If you think you saw somebody on the right proposing that, look more carefully and you will find the catch. Please don't be misled by wishful thinking! “The the mainstream right, and not just the settlers, is becoming a force of change.I think progressive Israelis should give more thought to this dynamic.”

Yes, we should give a thought to this dynamic – keeping in mind that it is a negative dynamic from which nothing good can possibly come. There are many schemes in the Israeli right wing towards full Israeli sovereignty in the Occupied Territories, but NONE of them include equal rights to the Palestinians. Each and every scheme from the Right always does and always will include some nullifying clause which would make sure that Jews would remain the bosses from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. In some plans it is very obvious Some of them, such as Naftali Benet, propose to annex only the C areas and leave the Palestinians in non-annexed “autonomy” in the A and B enclaves. Others such as Uri Ariel are more subtle, proposing to annex the whole territory and let Palestinians “apply for Israeli citizenship after five years”. NONE of them do or ever would propose a system of “One Person – One Vote”. If you think you saw somebody on the right proposing that, look more carefully and you will find the catch. Please don’t be misled by wishful thinking!

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/comment-page-1/#comment-68833 Kolumn9 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 07:28:45 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50930#comment-68833 XYZ, Yeah, I agree that there is a general trend in the Arab world about the breaking down of centralized government. Secular centralized control just doesn't seem to be a natural fit for societies that are based on a permanent state of clan/tribe/religious competition for public resources, dominance and space. This might go back to the Ottoman approach of controlling their very large empire as a quasi-feudal system whereby they basically granted legitimization to whoever managed to come to power in the provinces as long as the taxes and conscripts were sent up the chain. The same policy was used by the governors in dealing with their vassal rulers of cities/towns/villages. In practice this system supported and nurtured a system where on the local level there is constant conflict between family/clan groups for public dominance while the loyalty of the local ruler to the governor was a function of the capacity and willingness of the ruler to either use force or make lucrative arrangements to ensure compliance. Ultimate authority of Istanbul at the top of this food chain came from a combination of religious authority (caliphate) and military power. The basis for this system collapsed totally when the Ottoman Empire went nation-state under Ataturk. Within the former Ottoman provinces however there is no real legitimacy granted within this framework for the secular concept of a state as there was in the West as a result of the vesting of legitimacy within the state as a representative of the nation. . The creeping Islamization is a result of the absence and/or collapse of a legitimizing authority for the exercise of secular power superimposed on a feudal structure. This is true for the Palestinians as much as it is true for much of the Arab world. Many of the conflicts in the Arab world can be seen as struggles over public legitimacy rather than actual wars for control (a la Europe). One of the most interesting things for me was to see what happened in Gaza after Hamas came to power. Most clans that were allied with Fatah went over to Hamas extremely quickly and with minimal friction. Other clans that refused immediately to swear fealty were brought over after almost symbolic displays of power by Hamas. For a revolution it was almost bloodless (120 dead) and this is out of tens of thousands of men that both sides had under arms (with Fatah having numerical superiority). The interesting thing to me about this process is that increased Islamist control over governments might have the impact of counteracting the current trend towards decentralization even if the autonomous groups have their own firepower. . I also agree that under the current regional conditions the PA/Fateh couldn't make and stick to a deal even if they wanted to. They have no legitimacy left to make deals and are holding on to their present position almost entirely on the basis of Western aid. The PA will collapse in its present form sooner or later regardless of what Israel does and it will be replaced by largely autonomous statelets that rhetorically swear their fealty to some larger body that might still call itself the PA or alternatively Hamas or the PLO or the Caliphate or Palestine. In any case they will be practically independent because for obvious reasons it is unlikely that any such larger body will be in a position to impose centralized control in any meaningful way. . Yeah, I generally like Kedar and that video where he makes a fool out of the AJ anchor is priceless. XYZ, Yeah, I agree that there is a general trend in the Arab world about the breaking down of centralized government. Secular centralized control just doesn’t seem to be a natural fit for societies that are based on a permanent state of clan/tribe/religious competition for public resources, dominance and space. This might go back to the Ottoman approach of controlling their very large empire as a quasi-feudal system whereby they basically granted legitimization to whoever managed to come to power in the provinces as long as the taxes and conscripts were sent up the chain. The same policy was used by the governors in dealing with their vassal rulers of cities/towns/villages. In practice this system supported and nurtured a system where on the local level there is constant conflict between family/clan groups for public dominance while the loyalty of the local ruler to the governor was a function of the capacity and willingness of the ruler to either use force or make lucrative arrangements to ensure compliance. Ultimate authority of Istanbul at the top of this food chain came from a combination of religious authority (caliphate) and military power. The basis for this system collapsed totally when the Ottoman Empire went nation-state under Ataturk. Within the former Ottoman provinces however there is no real legitimacy granted within this framework for the secular concept of a state as there was in the West as a result of the vesting of legitimacy within the state as a representative of the nation.
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The creeping Islamization is a result of the absence and/or collapse of a legitimizing authority for the exercise of secular power superimposed on a feudal structure. This is true for the Palestinians as much as it is true for much of the Arab world. Many of the conflicts in the Arab world can be seen as struggles over public legitimacy rather than actual wars for control (a la Europe). One of the most interesting things for me was to see what happened in Gaza after Hamas came to power. Most clans that were allied with Fatah went over to Hamas extremely quickly and with minimal friction. Other clans that refused immediately to swear fealty were brought over after almost symbolic displays of power by Hamas. For a revolution it was almost bloodless (120 dead) and this is out of tens of thousands of men that both sides had under arms (with Fatah having numerical superiority). The interesting thing to me about this process is that increased Islamist control over governments might have the impact of counteracting the current trend towards decentralization even if the autonomous groups have their own firepower.
.

I also agree that under the current regional conditions the PA/Fateh couldn’t make and stick to a deal even if they wanted to. They have no legitimacy left to make deals and are holding on to their present position almost entirely on the basis of Western aid. The PA will collapse in its present form sooner or later regardless of what Israel does and it will be replaced by largely autonomous statelets that rhetorically swear their fealty to some larger body that might still call itself the PA or alternatively Hamas or the PLO or the Caliphate or Palestine. In any case they will be practically independent because for obvious reasons it is unlikely that any such larger body will be in a position to impose centralized control in any meaningful way.
.

Yeah, I generally like Kedar and that video where he makes a fool out of the AJ anchor is priceless.

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/comment-page-1/#comment-68816 Greg Pollock Tue, 17 Jul 2012 04:08:31 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50930#comment-68816 I'm violating my personal health rule by coming back to the same page more than once. But here I go. . Paul, above: . 'before the “progressive Israeli left” get too excited about new possibilities, dynamic new geographies and conceptual 3-dimensional models of multiplicity of citizenship (all worthy of discussion) its worth remembering who continues to suffer, who’s lives are blighted. In otherwise no matter how fashionable it is to dismiss the two-state solution as a failed unrealisable relic of past thinking, be careful what you wish for… and remember who ultimately pays the price in unstable political vacuums' . 1) Multiple levels of citizenship and residency will be a curse. But it is an inevitable product of expansive occupation. There is not, in my mind anyway, any intention to disregard the sufferings of these people in order to fit them into categories; rather, ultimately the categories imposed will fail to control the consequences of these truncated lives. . 2) The two-state solution is not being dismissed by the left; Bibi (whose last name is too hard for me to remember how to spell) has just about made one state apartheid not a solution, but likely reality. . Finally, if PA funds retract, competition for what resources there are will grow; this will yield violence within the Bank--and renewed advocacy and attempt at violence against Israel. And the State of Israel, as always, will reply. This is why, in my view, the demonstrations against the Wall were and are so important. They offer an alternative locus of actualized conflict as the PA shrinks. That doesn't mean they will dominate; but active alternative, and courage, will be dearly necessary then. At least to those, as myself, who think killing will go nowhere. . XYZ, . You cannot have autonomous enclaves which Arafat you say wanted while he later coordinates all suicide bombings. I am no Arafat worshiper, but it just didn't happen that way. There is solace in thinking "peoples" battle one another; but the reality is just about always messier than that. I do not think, to this day, we understand the genesis and maintenance of suicide bombing. Social science is more difficult than political position. Anguish, anger, fear do not necessarily lead to causal explanation with some hope of validity. Political ideology and science are not identical. I’m violating my personal health rule by coming back to the same page more than once. But here I go.
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Paul, above:
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‘before the “progressive Israeli left” get too excited about new possibilities, dynamic new geographies and conceptual 3-dimensional models of multiplicity of citizenship (all worthy of discussion) its worth remembering who continues to suffer, who’s lives are blighted.
In otherwise no matter how fashionable it is to dismiss the two-state solution as a failed unrealisable relic of past thinking, be careful what you wish for… and remember who ultimately pays the price in unstable political vacuums’
.
1) Multiple levels of citizenship and residency will be a curse. But it is an inevitable product of expansive occupation. There is not, in my mind anyway, any intention to disregard the sufferings of these people in order to fit them into categories; rather, ultimately the categories imposed will fail to control the consequences of these truncated lives.
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2) The two-state solution is not being dismissed by the left; Bibi (whose last name is too hard for me to remember how to spell) has just about made one state apartheid not a solution, but likely reality.
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Finally, if PA funds retract, competition for what resources there are will grow; this will yield violence within the Bank–and renewed advocacy and attempt at violence against Israel. And the State of Israel, as always, will reply. This is why, in my view, the demonstrations against the Wall were and are so important. They offer an alternative locus of actualized conflict as the PA shrinks. That doesn’t mean they will dominate; but active alternative, and courage, will be dearly necessary then. At least to those, as myself, who think killing will go nowhere.
.
XYZ,
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You cannot have autonomous enclaves which Arafat you say wanted while he later coordinates all suicide bombings. I am no Arafat worshiper, but it just didn’t happen that way. There is solace in thinking “peoples” battle one another; but the reality is just about always messier than that. I do not think, to this day, we understand the genesis and maintenance of suicide bombing. Social science is more difficult than political position. Anguish, anger, fear do not necessarily lead to causal explanation with some hope of validity. Political ideology and science are not identical.

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/comment-page-1/#comment-68795 sh Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:19:23 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50930#comment-68795 Oh yes, he's expressed the same kind of thing in English on BBC. He's on the board of Sion (stands for Stop Islamization of Nations), along with the likes of Pamela Geller who I believe presides the organization. In fact The Guardian wrote about Sion last April when Breivik's trial was about to begin. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/14/breivik-trial-norway-mass-murderer Oh yes, he’s expressed the same kind of thing in English on BBC. He’s on the board of Sion (stands for Stop Islamization of Nations), along with the likes of Pamela Geller who I believe presides the organization. In fact The Guardian wrote about Sion last April when Breivik’s trial was about to begin.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/14/breivik-trial-norway-mass-murderer

]]> By: XYZ http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/comment-page-1/#comment-68774 XYZ Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:19:00 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50930#comment-68774 Here is another interview with Dr Kedar from a few years ago that may be of interest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHpMhAzj-Tk Here is another interview with Dr Kedar from a few years ago that may be of interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHpMhAzj-Tk

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/comment-page-1/#comment-68771 sh Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:16:22 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50930#comment-68771 I refers to XYZ's post citing him as a mavin. I refers to XYZ’s post citing him as a mavin.

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/comment-page-1/#comment-68770 sh Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:15:07 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50930#comment-68770 For those who don't know who Mordechai Kedar is, he lectures in the Arabic Department of Bar Ilan University and is responsible for disseminating views such as these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68Yh6YAjeYg&feature=related Draw your own conclusions about his reason for specializing in Arabic in the first place and the motivation behind nature of his views. For those who don’t know who Mordechai Kedar is, he lectures in the Arabic Department of Bar Ilan University and is responsible for disseminating views such as these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68Yh6YAjeYg&feature=related
Draw your own conclusions about his reason for specializing in Arabic in the first place and the motivation behind nature of his views.

]]> By: Noam W. http://972mag.com/signs-of-a-transitional-moment-in-the-israeli-palestinian-dynamic/50930/comment-page-1/#comment-68767 Noam W. Mon, 16 Jul 2012 11:28:53 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=50930#comment-68767 Interesting analysis Noam. . Considering the ongoing abandonment and privatization of infrastructure on the West side of the Green line, I can only imagine what will happen when the PA collapses. The government will "sell" the right to provide services to private stakeholders and never take a second look. Interesting analysis Noam.
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Considering the ongoing abandonment and privatization of infrastructure on the West side of the Green line, I can only imagine what will happen when the PA collapses. The government will “sell” the right to provide services to private stakeholders and never take a second look.

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