Comments on: Secular Jerusalem Jews take on growing ultra-Orthodox influence

By: Mitchell Cohen

Mitchell Cohen — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 12:17:06 +0000

Greg, so what you are saying is that anyone who says they are a Jew is a Jew and that is it? Even if one doesn’t accept the Torah definition of who is a Jew, there obviously has to be a cutting point somewhere (and it IS for Jews to say who is a Jew, NOBODY else)….

By: Greg Pollock

Greg Pollock — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 03:02:41 +0000

the remainder: The requirement is absurd, placeing stigma and unnecessary cost on those wanting secular marriage vows. At least in Israel, the issue is not pluralism but the removal of alternative in marriage; singularity of God and faith, is forced: a natural born Israeli should NOT have to leave her land to make his marriage vows.

You want an alliance for the fear of God in talk.

By: Greg Pollock

Greg Pollock — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 02:59:03 +0000

The Abrahamic faiths do not worship the same God in fine (let alone Hindus). Worshiping a false god is not worshiping God. The alignment you are suggesting is using God talk for social regulation and control (so, no homosexual marriages, which somehow force secularism on you, one who need never talk to such a married couple). You (or one of your XYZ name mates) have already said that the Torah is the constitution of all Jews, secular or not; this is direct social control beyond secular law and would be, if implemented, worse than the German case you mention (and I suspect the lower court’s decision there will not stand). The claim that religious politics does not reach the State in Israel is quite false: vanguard settlers are much Ultra Orthodox, and, as another post presently on 972 shows, a Bedouin village will to be removed to make room for national religous settlers who enjoy several benefits via the State for their belief. Naturally born resident Israeli Jews have to leave their own country if they want a nonreligous marriage, returning after. The requirement is absurd, placeing stigma and unnecessary cost on those wanting secular marriage vows. At least in Israel, the issue is not pluralism but the removal of alternative in marriage; singularity of God and faith, is forced: a natural born Israeli should NOT have to leave her land to make his marriage vows.

You want an alliance for the fear of God in talk.

By: XYZ

XYZ — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 06:35:28 +0000

You still don’t understand what I am saying. I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF A THEOCRATIC STATE. I am in favor of secular democracy. I think I am speaking for virtually all religious Jews in Israel on this (I can’t speak for Christian and Muslim aspirations, obviously). We live in a world of pluralism. Even though I am Orthodox/religious (not Haredi) I am in principle in favor of state support for non-Orthodox movements.
You will note that although there are Islamist political movements that aspire to state power (e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt—”Islam is the solution”), there is no comparable movement of religious Jews in Israel. The Haredim wouldn’t want state power even if you offered it to them on a silver platter.
However, the religious revival I referred is a real, world-wide phenomenon and the secular have to take note of it. This means religious people have rights. For example, attempts by the Germans, who, of course, have a long history of concern for human rights as we all know, to ban ritual circumcision, or kosher slaughter are unacceptable and will be fought tooth and nail.

There is no denying that there is a significant increase in religious extremism (and by this, I mean, intolerance for those who disagree with them). This is an unfortunately logical reaction to the increasing radical secularism which is being pushed on everyone.
For example, seventy years ago, both liberals and conservative, Republicans and Democrats, opposed homosexual marriages and abortion on demand. The basic differences between the different political groups then were basically ecnomic. Today, the radical secularists are attempting to overturn values that everyone agreed on for centuries. It should not be surprising when people see their treasured beliefs being trampled on that this can trigger extreme responses, which, of course, does not justify violence in any way, shape or form, but which can create an inflamed political climate.
We are all going to have to learn to live together in this new environment. There is no other choice.

By: Greg Pollock

Greg Pollock — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 05:55:37 +0000

What you are saying is that you can all agree to fight the common enemy, the secular (which probably includes Zen Buddhism), even though on the issue of salvation you see each other as going to damnation of one kind or another. The secular have been pushed to the margins in Iran; shall you include that theocracy as a God fearing ally? Have you forgotten that when there really was no secular overt, the Christian church often actively persecuted Jews for the abomination of false belief and failure to accept the Jew Jesus as Messiah/God?

If you really want to worship God (oh terrible of me to spell the word complete) find a way to do so which needs no enemy. Let me help you get started: “Vie among yourselves in good deeds, and leave your differences to Me” (Qur’an, both 2nd and 5th Suras, context Jews, Christians, and Muslims). And let us not forget: you will abolish all secular Jews, control them through Torah. Spinoza knew where that leads.

By: XYZ

XYZ — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 04:27:25 +0000

You apparently have no understanding of how Judaism and the other classic religions view things. All these religions share basic truths and if the members of these religions live up to these truths, they are able to cooperate and live in peace with one another. Judaism does not require people of other faiths to convert to Judaism, as long as they live according to the rules of the “7 Mitzvot given to Benei-Noach” (i.e. mankind as a whole). All Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc, who live according to these rules, which are the basic rules of civilization are fine in the eyes of Judaism. The fact that Jews and Christians don’t view Muhammed as a Prophet does not mean Jews and Christians can’t live in peace and mutual respect with Muslims.
They key to harmony is to emphasize the areas of agreement and not to push the areas of disagreement in each other’s faces. This has been done through much of history and today there is a greater awareness among religious believers of the need to confront the real dangers of the secular challenge. Did you see the Republican convention where a well-known Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi let the invocation QUOTING BIBLICAL TEXTS IN HEBREW and this was respected by the largely Christian audience who bowed their heads in respect. This is the wave of the future. In the West, peoples of different religions cooperate to a greater degree than any time in history. The problem now is in the Middle East, but they will learn too, although it will take time.

By: Palestinian

Palestinian — Tue, 02 Oct 2012 22:41:39 +0000

You consider people who come from different continents ,cultures and races an ethnic group ?! get real

By: Greg Pollock

Greg Pollock — Tue, 02 Oct 2012 21:19:35 +0000

Nor is it for Jews to tell Jews what they are, XYZ. Israel’s Declaration of Independence denies the Torah is the Constitution (and what a Constitution it would be, Moses angry at his warriors for allowing the women of an enemy group to live at one point), providing full equality of social and political rights irrespective of faith.

Let’s begin this new crusade of Toarah with some honesty: what is your name, XYZ? Or does YHWH tell you to hide?

By: Greg Pollock

Greg Pollock — Tue, 02 Oct 2012 21:15:22 +0000

“This marks the beginning of a real revolution which has the potential to shake the world as did the Emlightenment and the secularization of Western society that began in the 18th century and which has lasted two and a half centuries but which has exhausted itself.”–But to Orthodox Jews, Christians worship nothing; to Christians, Jews refuse the new commandments of God; to both Jews and Christians, Muslims follow a false prophet, Jews thinking they have the only God, Christians thinking Muslims have denied God by denying the Godhead of Jesus. Strangely, only the Islamic text, the Qur’an, allows all three faiths some truth value. Your revivals, XYZ, lead to the destruction of each other, save, perhaps, in Islam. What’s a God to do?

By: XYZ

XYZ — Tue, 02 Oct 2012 20:42:26 +0000

The increase in observance of Orthodox Judaism, both Haredi (Ultra-Orthodox) and non-Haredi is parallel to the spread of Islam in the Arab and non-Arab Muslim countries. I am referring both the “political” Islam as well as non-political Islam as a religious movement. These reflect a genuine disillusionment with the dominant modern Western secular, consumerist culture and value system that inundates the world by way of the media and which is viewed as being negative if not outright destructive of human society. Neither the Jewish nor Muslim version of this 21st century religous revival is going to go away and, in fact, I expect a Christian version to appear, particularly in Europe in the coming years as well. This marks the beginning of a real revolution which has the potential to shake the world as did the Emlightenment and the secularization of Western society that began in the 18th century and which has lasted two and a half centuries but which has exhausted itself.