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	<title>Comments on: Right-wing group, Jerusalem Post launch public attack on +972</title>
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	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
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		<title>By: BOOZ</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-jerusalem-post-launch-public-attack-on-972-magazine/33914/comment-page-1/#comment-41617</link>
		<dc:creator>BOOZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=33914#comment-41617</guid>
		<description>@Vicky : 

All Italians adhere to the Italian founding lore (Starting from Dante Alighieri to  Garibaldi &amp; Mazzini)

All Frenchmen regard themselves as part to the coronation of Clovis, Bastille Day, the upheaval of the Commune de Paris and regard Descartes, Blaise Pascal and Marcel Proust as their estate ( I should mention this is the case of my father, a Rumanian Jew enlisted in &#039;39 in the Foreign Legion to fight fascism, and made a French  citizen in &#039;46). 

Likewise, the Jewish  people are those who adhere in some form to the lore of Exit from Egypt and anything that comes thereafter. History  has proven how much  safer it is to  secure this claim by  means of the might of a state. 

And I can see no reason other than bigotry or racism to deny  that claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Vicky : </p>
<p>All Italians adhere to the Italian founding lore (Starting from Dante Alighieri to  Garibaldi &amp; Mazzini)</p>
<p>All Frenchmen regard themselves as part to the coronation of Clovis, Bastille Day, the upheaval of the Commune de Paris and regard Descartes, Blaise Pascal and Marcel Proust as their estate ( I should mention this is the case of my father, a Rumanian Jew enlisted in &#8217;39 in the Foreign Legion to fight fascism, and made a French  citizen in &#8217;46). </p>
<p>Likewise, the Jewish  people are those who adhere in some form to the lore of Exit from Egypt and anything that comes thereafter. History  has proven how much  safer it is to  secure this claim by  means of the might of a state. </p>
<p>And I can see no reason other than bigotry or racism to deny  that claim.</p>
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		<title>By: Piotr Berman</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-jerusalem-post-launch-public-attack-on-972-magazine/33914/comment-page-1/#comment-41461</link>
		<dc:creator>Piotr Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jan 2012 02:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=33914#comment-41461</guid>
		<description>I think that both Warren and Steve generalize a bit too much.  Steve: &quot;Every single one of these places favors the majority in some way to maintain their cultural identity in their home state.&quot;

So far so good.  But even if it is an establish practice to &quot;favor the majority in some way&quot;, not every way has to be accepted.

For example, the culture of the majority can be threatened (or perceived to be threatened) by an excessive number of shops run by a minority.  Nevertheless a policy of breaking windowns in those shops would not be regarded as reasonable outside certain narrow circles.

And now suppose that the majority is worried about the problem of too many dwelling being occupied by the minority.  A policy of bulldozing those dwellings does not seem to be more reasonable than breaking windows in shops.  Except for folks like NGO Monitor who finds that opposition to the policy of house demolition &quot;satisfies the modern criteria of antisemitism.&quot;  And so is the opposition to reserving some roads for the use of the majority.

I think (believe) that Israel does not HAVE TO resort to such policies and could exists like any other ethnic state.  But NGO Monitors has a different opinion, and apparently Warren agrees.  And he draws the conclusion that the concept of &quot;Jewish State&quot; entails supremacism.

So here is my answer to Steve&#039;s question: why many people support one-state solution.  Because they believe Steinberg, Netanyahu and others that the Israel cannot survive as a Jewish State without many policies which are worse than breaking windows in shops, and thus it should not survive in that form.  Instead, Hebrew speaking Jews may find some other ways of maintaining their cultural and religious identity, perhaps in so-called &quot;one state&quot;.

However, to find such ways they would have to recognized that the current policies are no better than breaking windows in Jewish shops, and thus wrong even if they are supposed to have LIMITED DURATION, or are SUBJECT OF REVIEW, or VOLUNTARY.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that both Warren and Steve generalize a bit too much.  Steve: &#8220;Every single one of these places favors the majority in some way to maintain their cultural identity in their home state.&#8221;</p>
<p>So far so good.  But even if it is an establish practice to &#8220;favor the majority in some way&#8221;, not every way has to be accepted.</p>
<p>For example, the culture of the majority can be threatened (or perceived to be threatened) by an excessive number of shops run by a minority.  Nevertheless a policy of breaking windowns in those shops would not be regarded as reasonable outside certain narrow circles.</p>
<p>And now suppose that the majority is worried about the problem of too many dwelling being occupied by the minority.  A policy of bulldozing those dwellings does not seem to be more reasonable than breaking windows in shops.  Except for folks like NGO Monitor who finds that opposition to the policy of house demolition &#8220;satisfies the modern criteria of antisemitism.&#8221;  And so is the opposition to reserving some roads for the use of the majority.</p>
<p>I think (believe) that Israel does not HAVE TO resort to such policies and could exists like any other ethnic state.  But NGO Monitors has a different opinion, and apparently Warren agrees.  And he draws the conclusion that the concept of &#8220;Jewish State&#8221; entails supremacism.</p>
<p>So here is my answer to Steve&#8217;s question: why many people support one-state solution.  Because they believe Steinberg, Netanyahu and others that the Israel cannot survive as a Jewish State without many policies which are worse than breaking windows in shops, and thus it should not survive in that form.  Instead, Hebrew speaking Jews may find some other ways of maintaining their cultural and religious identity, perhaps in so-called &#8220;one state&#8221;.</p>
<p>However, to find such ways they would have to recognized that the current policies are no better than breaking windows in Jewish shops, and thus wrong even if they are supposed to have LIMITED DURATION, or are SUBJECT OF REVIEW, or VOLUNTARY.</p>
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		<title>By: Vicky</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-jerusalem-post-launch-public-attack-on-972-magazine/33914/comment-page-1/#comment-41420</link>
		<dc:creator>Vicky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=33914#comment-41420</guid>
		<description>&quot;My response: No, the “homeland for the Jews” is the same as the homelands for the muslims, and the homelands for the Arabs, and the homeland for the Japanese, and the homeland for the Italians, and the homeland for ever other ethnic group that has a homeland.&quot;
.
Italy doesn&#039;t require you to either convert to Catholicism or to provide proof of one Catholic grandparent in order to apply for citizenship. Japan doesn&#039;t require would-be citizens to demonstrate that they have at least one East Asian grandparent and that they have never willingly practised a religion other than Shinto. In fact, the only country I know of with citizenship laws such as these is Israel.
.
I could be wrong. Maybe there are other countries like this. If there are, they are every bit as wrong for having them as Israel is.
.
Refusing to base citizenship laws on blood and belief and support for a Jewish homeland are not mutually exclusive, believe it or not. There are Jews who don&#039;t experience their Jewishness as a national identity and who don&#039;t want to be identified with a Jewish state or homeland. There are other Jews who support the concept of a Jewish *homeland*, but not of a Jewish *state*. There is a difference. Non-statist Zionists exist. These people might feel a strong affinity with the land, but they see nationalism as a corrosive that eats away at both that affinity and their Jewish identity rather than expressing or enhancing them. Such people might feel that their Jewishness is best expressed by a state for all its citizens, not a state where true belonging is contingent on ethnicity, belief, and the oppression of other people.
.
+972&#039;s contributors have varying attitudes to Zionism and it is only recently that debates on the one-state solution, etc. have been held. I&#039;ve been following the site since its inception and I&#039;m pretty confident in saying that such posts only make up a small minority of the content. Even if this weren&#039;t true, and all the contributors were cheerfully launching attacks on Zionism morning, noon, and night, it still wouldn&#039;t be acceptable for NGO Monitor to be attacking their donors. In a real democracy, people don&#039;t have any reason to be afraid of ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;My response: No, the “homeland for the Jews” is the same as the homelands for the muslims, and the homelands for the Arabs, and the homeland for the Japanese, and the homeland for the Italians, and the homeland for ever other ethnic group that has a homeland.&#8221;<br />
.<br />
Italy doesn&#8217;t require you to either convert to Catholicism or to provide proof of one Catholic grandparent in order to apply for citizenship. Japan doesn&#8217;t require would-be citizens to demonstrate that they have at least one East Asian grandparent and that they have never willingly practised a religion other than Shinto. In fact, the only country I know of with citizenship laws such as these is Israel.<br />
.<br />
I could be wrong. Maybe there are other countries like this. If there are, they are every bit as wrong for having them as Israel is.<br />
.<br />
Refusing to base citizenship laws on blood and belief and support for a Jewish homeland are not mutually exclusive, believe it or not. There are Jews who don&#8217;t experience their Jewishness as a national identity and who don&#8217;t want to be identified with a Jewish state or homeland. There are other Jews who support the concept of a Jewish *homeland*, but not of a Jewish *state*. There is a difference. Non-statist Zionists exist. These people might feel a strong affinity with the land, but they see nationalism as a corrosive that eats away at both that affinity and their Jewish identity rather than expressing or enhancing them. Such people might feel that their Jewishness is best expressed by a state for all its citizens, not a state where true belonging is contingent on ethnicity, belief, and the oppression of other people.<br />
.<br />
+972&#8242;s contributors have varying attitudes to Zionism and it is only recently that debates on the one-state solution, etc. have been held. I&#8217;ve been following the site since its inception and I&#8217;m pretty confident in saying that such posts only make up a small minority of the content. Even if this weren&#8217;t true, and all the contributors were cheerfully launching attacks on Zionism morning, noon, and night, it still wouldn&#8217;t be acceptable for NGO Monitor to be attacking their donors. In a real democracy, people don&#8217;t have any reason to be afraid of ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-jerusalem-post-launch-public-attack-on-972-magazine/33914/comment-page-1/#comment-41412</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=33914#comment-41412</guid>
		<description>Oops - I meant to say I hope the donation helps keep +972 up and running - obviously the donation of one person can&#039;t do it alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops &#8211; I meant to say I hope the donation helps keep +972 up and running &#8211; obviously the donation of one person can&#8217;t do it alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-jerusalem-post-launch-public-attack-on-972-magazine/33914/comment-page-1/#comment-41411</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=33914#comment-41411</guid>
		<description>I just made a donation, which I hope keeps +972 up and running. I can&#039;t say I agree with everything that appears on your site, but as someone who cares deeply about Israel and Israeli democracy, I know how few resources there are in English that express a range of opinions and challenge the party line expressed by American Jewish organizations in particular.  Without freedom of speech, we&#039;re all screwed. So thanks for being there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just made a donation, which I hope keeps +972 up and running. I can&#8217;t say I agree with everything that appears on your site, but as someone who cares deeply about Israel and Israeli democracy, I know how few resources there are in English that express a range of opinions and challenge the party line expressed by American Jewish organizations in particular.  Without freedom of speech, we&#8217;re all screwed. So thanks for being there.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Pollock</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-jerusalem-post-launch-public-attack-on-972-magazine/33914/comment-page-1/#comment-41382</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Pollock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=33914#comment-41382</guid>
		<description>Occupation seepage.  As those occupied must behave correctly, so must we all.  Your State has lived in war its entire life; now it fights itself.
.
The first fight is here.  If this one is lost, so too the others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Occupation seepage.  As those occupied must behave correctly, so must we all.  Your State has lived in war its entire life; now it fights itself.<br />
.<br />
The first fight is here.  If this one is lost, so too the others.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-jerusalem-post-launch-public-attack-on-972-magazine/33914/comment-page-1/#comment-41373</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 05:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=33914#comment-41373</guid>
		<description>Warren Metzler said this absurd nonsense: &quot;This “homeland for the Jews” is a euphemism for “we are the greatest, and this superiority image&quot;

My response: No, the &quot;homeland for the Jews&quot; is the same as the homelands for the muslims, and the homelands for the Arabs, and the homeland for the Japanese, and the homeland for the Italians, and the homeland for ever other ethnic group that has a homeland. Every single one of these places favors the majority in some way to maintain their cultural identity in their home state.

Unless, of course, you&#039;re dishonest and bigoted against Jews. Then you make up dishonest accusations that Jews having a homeland is somehow about &quot;superiority.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren Metzler said this absurd nonsense: &#8220;This “homeland for the Jews” is a euphemism for “we are the greatest, and this superiority image&#8221;</p>
<p>My response: No, the &#8220;homeland for the Jews&#8221; is the same as the homelands for the muslims, and the homelands for the Arabs, and the homeland for the Japanese, and the homeland for the Italians, and the homeland for ever other ethnic group that has a homeland. Every single one of these places favors the majority in some way to maintain their cultural identity in their home state.</p>
<p>Unless, of course, you&#8217;re dishonest and bigoted against Jews. Then you make up dishonest accusations that Jews having a homeland is somehow about &#8220;superiority.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jan</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-jerusalem-post-launch-public-attack-on-972-magazine/33914/comment-page-1/#comment-41372</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 05:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=33914#comment-41372</guid>
		<description>THe question is Who is funding NGO Monitor and why do they want to censor voices that question or condemn Israeli policies?

Does NGO Monitor support censorship in what is supposed to be &quot;the only democracy in the Middle East?&quot; Obviously NGO monitor doesn&#039;t give a damn about democracy or free speech and they prove it with every one of their reports.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THe question is Who is funding NGO Monitor and why do they want to censor voices that question or condemn Israeli policies?</p>
<p>Does NGO Monitor support censorship in what is supposed to be &#8220;the only democracy in the Middle East?&#8221; Obviously NGO monitor doesn&#8217;t give a damn about democracy or free speech and they prove it with every one of their reports.</p>
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		<title>By: Warren Metzler</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-jerusalem-post-launch-public-attack-on-972-magazine/33914/comment-page-1/#comment-41319</link>
		<dc:creator>Warren Metzler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=33914#comment-41319</guid>
		<description>Steve, I admire your capacity to invent phenomena. A real democracy is one where EVERYONE has the same rights; those universal human rights granted by God to everyone. 

So any country in the world that has a government, supported by a population, that says this country is only for those of a particular ethnic group, or religion, or culture, cannot be a democracy, regardless of how hard it tries to claim that is so. And not being a democracy will unavoidably progressive and steadily descend into the only other possible human form of government: a form of fascism. And that is exactly what is occurring in Israel. 

This &quot;homeland for the Jews&quot; is a euphemism for &quot;we are the greatest, and this superiority image ingrained deep in our bones has resulted in constant oppression in many lands in which we lived; but instead of getting rid of that unwarranted view of superiority, and learning to co-exist in peace and harmony with our neighbors in every country in the world in which we live, we&#039;ve decided it was pure racism and we need a homeland where we can protect ourselves from all such oppression; and that fact that we did the same things to the natives of that land, and continue to do them to this day, as was done to us for 2,000 years is ignored by us as too difficult to defend given our claim to be civilized, democratic, and western in our morals and motives.&quot;

It is not crazy to want to get rid of a Jewish state, it is rational, peace oriented, and the only way to save the Zionists from eventually destroying themselves. Keep that Jewish State, and eventually you will have leaders who make Lieberman look like Gandhi.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I admire your capacity to invent phenomena. A real democracy is one where EVERYONE has the same rights; those universal human rights granted by God to everyone. </p>
<p>So any country in the world that has a government, supported by a population, that says this country is only for those of a particular ethnic group, or religion, or culture, cannot be a democracy, regardless of how hard it tries to claim that is so. And not being a democracy will unavoidably progressive and steadily descend into the only other possible human form of government: a form of fascism. And that is exactly what is occurring in Israel. </p>
<p>This &#8220;homeland for the Jews&#8221; is a euphemism for &#8220;we are the greatest, and this superiority image ingrained deep in our bones has resulted in constant oppression in many lands in which we lived; but instead of getting rid of that unwarranted view of superiority, and learning to co-exist in peace and harmony with our neighbors in every country in the world in which we live, we&#8217;ve decided it was pure racism and we need a homeland where we can protect ourselves from all such oppression; and that fact that we did the same things to the natives of that land, and continue to do them to this day, as was done to us for 2,000 years is ignored by us as too difficult to defend given our claim to be civilized, democratic, and western in our morals and motives.&#8221;</p>
<p>It is not crazy to want to get rid of a Jewish state, it is rational, peace oriented, and the only way to save the Zionists from eventually destroying themselves. Keep that Jewish State, and eventually you will have leaders who make Lieberman look like Gandhi.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-jerusalem-post-launch-public-attack-on-972-magazine/33914/comment-page-1/#comment-41278</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=33914#comment-41278</guid>
		<description>To Warren Metzler:

What do you think finding 10 or 15 Israelis who hate and criticize Israel infinitely more than most Israelis accomplishes?

Very few Jewish Israelis want a &quot;one-state solution&quot; that ends Israel&#039;s existence as a Jewish homeland. Yet a big stack of them are right here. What does this say to you?

There is nothing &quot;right-wing&quot; about wanting the world&#039;s only Jewish state to be safe and continue to exist, hopefully forever, as a Jewish state. The Muslim states want to exist forever too. Same with the ethnic states. Japan isn&#039;t looking to become Chinese anytime soon. Italy isn&#039;t looking to merge with France. States want to keep existing. But somehow a bunch of people who pretend to be &quot;peace activists&quot; want the world&#039;s only Jewish state erased, and it&#039;s pretty crazy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Warren Metzler:</p>
<p>What do you think finding 10 or 15 Israelis who hate and criticize Israel infinitely more than most Israelis accomplishes?</p>
<p>Very few Jewish Israelis want a &#8220;one-state solution&#8221; that ends Israel&#8217;s existence as a Jewish homeland. Yet a big stack of them are right here. What does this say to you?</p>
<p>There is nothing &#8220;right-wing&#8221; about wanting the world&#8217;s only Jewish state to be safe and continue to exist, hopefully forever, as a Jewish state. The Muslim states want to exist forever too. Same with the ethnic states. Japan isn&#8217;t looking to become Chinese anytime soon. Italy isn&#8217;t looking to merge with France. States want to keep existing. But somehow a bunch of people who pretend to be &#8220;peace activists&#8221; want the world&#8217;s only Jewish state erased, and it&#8217;s pretty crazy</p>
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